scott123

As much as I revere Jim Lahey for the pioneering work he's done in bringing no knead techniques to the attention of the American public, if he takes a lackadaisical approach to home oven setups (which I think he might do, based on videos that I've seen of his), his name will be dirt to me, just like Reinhart.

As much as I revere Jim Lahey for the pioneering work he's done in bringing no knead techniques to the attention of the American public, if he takes a lackadaisical approach to home oven setups (which I think he might do, based on videos that I've seen of his), his name will be dirt to me, just like Reinhart.

I don’t understand what you think is wrong with Reinhart doughs or pizzas. Can you explain what you think is wrong with them? I know you are a NY style guy , but thought you were opening your mind to other types of pizzas.

I like Reinhart's bread books for what they are, books on bread making. His pizza recipes (I have tried) don't do much for me. His sauce recipe is horrendous. I've tried Lahey's doughs and they are always too wet and tasteless when cooked in a home oven. At least Reinhart goes into introducing steam and the use of stones when he talks about breads, and for that matter, pizza also. I'm sure there is way more pizza knowledge right here on the "forum", then you will find in ANY book!

I like Reinhart's bread books for what they are, books on bread making. His pizza recipes (I have tried) don't do much for me. His sauce recipe is horrendous. I've tried Lahey's doughs and they are always too wet and tasteless when cooked in a home oven. At least Reinhart goes into introducing steam and the use of stones when he talks about breads, and for that matter, pizza also. I'm sure there is way more pizza knowledge right here on the "forum", then you will find in ANY book!

Dave,

I have tried different Reinhart formulations and modified formulations. The crusts rims from the higher hydrations are light and have great oven spring, at least in my opinion. I never read any of Reinhart’s books, but was a tester for his new gluten-free book that is supposed to come out this year.

I agree with you that no book can compare to all the knowledge that is on this forum.

Another thing that seldom, if ever, gets mentioned in some of these celebratie books is the flour they use. Commercial bakers have access to flours that we don't even know exist. I'm sure Lahey isn't running down to the local grocery store and picking up a bag of Pillsbury ap to bake his product with, but we are prettty much at the mercy of what's on the grocers shelves. I know a lot of us pizza nerds order specialty flours on occasion, but the average reader of these books doesn't even know where to start to find them.

Another thing that seldom, if ever, gets mentioned in some of these celebratie books is the flour they use. Commercial bakers have access to flours that we don't even know exist. I'm sure Lahey isn't running down to the local grocery store and picking up a bag of Pillsbury ap to bake his product with, but we are prettty much at the mercy of what's on the grocers shelves. I know a lot of us pizza nerds order specialty flours on occasion, but the average reader of these books doesn't even know where to start to find them.

Dave,

I agree most members don’t have access to flours like commercial businesses do.

parallei

At least Reinhart goes into introducing steam and the use of stones when he talks about breads,

That is not true. Lahey’s No-Knead bread recipe, that went all around the world in a day or two because of Bitman's (SP?) article in the NY Times, had folks baking the bread to in a dutch oven to mimic the steam in a professional oven years ago. Long before the "Tartine" method made the rounds.

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scott123

I don’t understand what you think is wrong with Reinhart doughs or pizzas. Can you explain what you think is wrong with them? I know you are a NY style guy , but thought you were opening your mind to other types of pizzas.

Norma, the Japanese 'own' sushi. If I wrote a book on sushi and described it as small pieces of hot dogs, I would expect most Japanese people who read my book to be quite angry. I'm taking something from their culture that they cherish highly and attempting to redefine it as something completely different. If I wrote a book on champagne and described it as carbonated water, the French would be equally livid. As a NYer and a 1/8,000,000 owner of NY style pizza, when I read Reinhart's recipe for NY style pizza, my blood boils. The man is trashing my culture by spreading a faulty definition for this region's most cherished food. I'm not Neapolitan, but he does Naples an ever greater disservice with the ignorance he's spreading regarding Neapolitan pizza.

I can become more expansive to other styles of pizzas, but I will never be tolerant of culture bashing.

As far as Jim Lahey goes, and what may or may not be in his book, I think that people of his stature- people that, if they write a book, are going to reach millions of readers, have a responsibility to do their homework. For pizza, that includes an understanding of the thermodynamics involved- that pizza's most important ingredient is heat. If someone is writing an article for Better and Homes and Gardens, and they want to stipulate "turn your oven as high as it will go," then that's perfectly fine. With the number of people Lahey (and Reinhart) is reaching, though, he (they) should be getting into some of the nuts and bolts. Lahey is making probably hundreds of thousands of dollars a year baking up breathtakingly beautiful high heat pizzas and for him to come out with a book that says something along the lines of "just turn your oven up and it'll be fine," would be an insult to public. I know he hasn't said this yet in his book, but I have seen him say something similar on videos. I'm crossing my fingers that he doesn't treat the public/his fans like helpless children, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

I can become more expansive to other styles of pizzas, but I will never be tolerant of culture bashing.

Dam straight. I took the expo/tour. At the end of three days I finally figured out that I was invited to the table of another. I have no right to criticize except for my personal taste. Certainly, walk a mile in the guys oven type of thing. The World has very few knowledgeable people about anything, much less pizza. I would put money with Scott. Period.

Norma, the Japanese 'own' sushi. If I wrote a book on sushi and described it as small pieces of hot dogs, I would expect most Japanese people who read my book to be quite angry. I'm taking something from their culture that they cherish highly and attempting to redefine it as something completely different. If I wrote a book on champagne and described it as carbonated water, the French would be equally livid. As a NYer and a 1/8,000,000 owner of NY style pizza, when I read Reinhart's recipe for NY style pizza, my blood boils. The man is trashing my culture by spreading a faulty definition for this region's most cherished food. I'm not Neapolitan, but he does Naples an ever greater disservice with the ignorance he's spreading regarding Neapolitan pizza.

I can become more expansive to other styles of pizzas, but I will never be tolerant of culture bashing.

As far as Jim Lahey goes, and what may or may not be in his book, I think that people of his stature- people that, if they write a book, are going to reach millions of readers, have a responsibility to do their homework. For pizza, that includes an understanding of the thermodynamics involved- that pizza's most important ingredient is heat. If someone is writing an article for Better and Homes and Gardens, and they want to stipulate "turn your oven as high as it will go," then that's perfectly fine. With the number of people Lahey (and Reinhart) is reaching, though, he (they) should be getting into some of the nuts and bolts. Lahey is making probably hundreds of thousands of dollars a year baking up breathtakingly beautiful high heat pizzas and for him to come out with a book that says something along the lines of "just turn your oven up and it'll be fine," would be an insult to public. I know he hasn't said this yet in his book, but I have seen him say something similar on videos. I'm crossing my fingers that he doesn't treat the public/his fans like helpless children, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Scott,

I am not saying Reinhart has the best formulas for NY style or Neapolitan pizzas, but I have tried some of his formulations and can say I do like them, and they made some delicious pizzas in my opinion and other members opinions.

If anyone goes down the road in studying NY style pizzas or Neapolitan pizzas there are many different opinions on what they should or shouldn’t be like. I really haven’t been able to make perfect pizzas is any style that I have tried. I always try to have an open mind and try different formulations, and if Jim Lahey’s book has any good advice or good formulations I will try them.

I know this forum has a wealth of information that can’t be contained in one book. If it could, most people would be on the road to a better pizza no matter what kind of style they want to make.

Even Scottr posted that the recipe and instructions he gave were never published right and if he had his own way he would have had it published differently. That was just one article on making pizza.

Whenever anyone, even like Jim Lahey, writes a book, they can’t reach all the people that want to learn to make pizza in one book. Everyone doesn’t have the same ovens, equipment, flours, or other variables that are needed to make great pizzas. A lot of people don’t even have the money to buy all the stuff that is needed to make decent pizza. If everyone did, most pizza businesses like pizza chains wouldn’t be in business like they are. People would find out they can make better pizzas at home, if they would be interested in doing that.

I am always on the journey and learn on my journeys, whether it is on the forum, information from members, reading books, searching the web, or finding out any information about pizza I can. Even if each bit of information is little it still helps me learn.

I am somewhat like you in my passions, but I am also understand everything can’t be contained in one book.

I made the Lahey pizza dough last night. 500g flour-I used HG although AP specified, 350g h20, 2t salt, and 1/4t yeast-ADY specified; mix until it comes together; bulk rise at room temp 18 hours, divide into 4 and ball. Although the book suggests it should not be sticky at this point and if it is add more flour, I found the dough quite gooey. When I started to open the dough ball it was fairly resistant and felt like it would tear if I got too aggressive. I also realized there was no way I could deliver the pie from the peel onto the deck. So I had to change plans; I decided to make a square pan pie. I was inspired by the square pies at Artichoke and L & B Spumoni Gardens from the Chau tour.I spread the dough out on a well oiled pan, rested the dough for 1 hour, docked, and parbaked for 5 minutes with some sauce. Then dressed the pie and baked for an additional 15 minutes.I ended up with a soft airy crumb with some crispiness. The dough didn't have much flavor, similar to a plain no-knead Lahey bread. I think with tweaking such as adjusting the hydration, adding some oil in the dough which I rarely do, and adding sugar this could produce a decent pan dough; but by doing this it would no longer be a Lahey recipe.I never tasted a pie made by Lahey but I have eaten bread from Sullivan Street Bakery and it was excellent.

Thanks for posting about the Lahey pizza dough you tried last night. Will be interested in hearing what other members have to say. Sounds like Jim Lahey’s pizza dough will be hard to manage from your results.

scott123

Whenever anyone, even like Jim Lahey, writes a book, they can’t reach all the people that want to learn to make pizza in one book. Everyone doesn’t have the same ovens, equipment, flours, or other variables that are needed to make great pizzas. A lot of people don’t even have the money to buy all the stuff that is needed to make decent pizza. If everyone did, most pizza businesses like pizza chains wouldn’t be in business like they are. People would find out they can make better pizzas at home, if they would be interested in doing that.

Norma, I expect more from Jim Lahey. Most of the people that are familiar with him/his bakeries/restaurants are most likely going to be advanced enough bakers to be in a position to want to invest in the right tools for the job.

Better Homes and Gardens, Alton Brown, Gourmet, Cook's Illustrated- if these people want to follow the 'even mediocre pizza is still good pizza' mentality, I'm not going to make a big stink, because of the demographic they're appealing to. But Lahey (and Reinhart) has stature. Someone with his knowledgebase and experience in the industry should be presenting more than compromises for the home pizza baker. Definitely, present the easy route, but also present more costly/harder to find options for the more passionate.

Edit: I just found this in the Amazon description:

Quote

has developed a brilliant recipe that requires no kneading and produces an irresistible crust in any home oven—gas or electric—in fewer than five minutes.

It sounds like it might be an inverted cast iron pan technique. I really hope it isn't, but I guess it's better than "turn your oven the highest it will go."

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scott123

Dam straight. I took the expo/tour. At the end of three days I finally figured out that I was invited to the table of another. I have no right to criticize except for my personal taste. Certainly, walk a mile in the guys oven type of thing. The World has very few knowledgeable people about anything, much less pizza. I would put money with Scott. Period.

That's very kind of you to say, Gene. We may part ways when it comes to char and salt preferences, but, between your time in NY and your time on this forum, you definitely 'get' NY pizza.

If Jim Lahey’s book is looked inside, it can be seen that he recommends using a pizza stone and preheating the oven and using the broiler to preheat the pizza stone. If anyone wants to read more about Jim Lahey’s methods some are at this link. http://www.food52.com/blog/2912_jim_laheys_noknead_pizza_dough The comments at the bottom are interesting.

Bonappetit has the recipe for Jim Lahey’s No-Knead Pizza Dough this month, if anyone is interested.

Norma, I expect more from Jim Lahey. Most of the people that are familiar with him/his bakeries/restaurants are most likely going to be advanced enough bakers to be in a position to want to invest in the right tools for the job.

Better Homes and Gardens, Alton Brown, Gourmet, Cook's Illustrated- if these people want to follow the 'even mediocre pizza is still good pizza' mentality, I'm not going to make a big stink, because of the demographic they're appealing to. But Lahey (and Reinhart) has stature. Someone with his knowledgebase and experience in the industry should be presenting more than compromises for the home pizza baker. Definitely, present the easy route, but also present more costly/harder to find options for the more passionate.

Edit: I just found this in the Amazon description:

It sounds like it might be an inverted cast iron pan technique. I really hope it isn't, but I guess it's better than "turn your oven the highest it will go."

Scott,

Although I agree with you in some ways, in others I don’t. I think books are produced for the masses of people that might want to try something new, or try something they can’t do. I don’t know how Jim Lahey’s book will be accepted, but his other book did get people to try different things they didn’t before.

You will see what I just posted that Jim Lahey does recommend getting a pizza stone and preheating the pizza stone and even using a broiler to heat more.

I would like to ask you a question if you had the chance to write a book on how you would explain to the masses of people that would want to learn to make a decent pizza? I also would like to ask you what formulation you would give people that don’t have access to commercial flours and want to make a NY style pizza?

Jim Lahey’s is like many popular chefs, bakers, or celebrities in many ways. He also likes to make money. I am not saying his new book in anything spectacular, but might help some people that don‘t know how to make pizza. I just posted about his book if anyone is interested.