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Ewen, the grip you are referring to (gakun) is similar to what you would feel from an Aikidoka applying a yonkyo technique. There is a particular member of the Indianapolis Aikikai who has done it to me and it is just as painful as Hobbs-Sensei's.

Some styles of Aikido feature kata training, but many seem to be more organic in their methods (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Thank you, this is most helpful. So Yonkyo relates to Yondan! On a superficial level my two favourite katas thus far are Nidan and Yondan. I have begun training in Nidan, which I will need for my last brown grading and my 1st dan but I've only had a taster of Sandan and Yondan. Thank you for correcting me on the gakun, I just couldn't think how to spell it.

As to the 'organic' nature of Aikido training, how often would you train in the above techniques? Do they correspond to dan grades as in AJJ or is it different? I don't really know much about the grading system in Aikido.

I know it sounds like I am very focussed on grading, which is just another means to an end not an end in itself but it's just that as a kyu grade I am rarely taught anything beyond Nidan and would really like more training in the latter techniques.

It sound like the dojo you are training at may not be the best fit for you. Does your group include any Kokamishin training? Have you brought your concerns to the head of your group?

Thanks for the link I will look at it when I have more time. As for my dojo I have mixed feelings - I in fact go to two Dentokan AJJ clubs, one on a wednesday and one on a friday. The reason I go to two is that both clubs only meet once a week and so for more regular training I go to both (as do many others including some of the instructors). The downside to this is that you get different sensei's teaching different things in different ways, which when you are training for a grading can be very confusing - Nihonage is a perfect example, they each have slightly different ways and preferances for how the technique should be performed.

The wednesday club used to be Nigel Goodier's club and he used to be head sensei there; he still teaches regularly but he has stepped down as head instructor. Nigel holds the rank of Hachidan-Kaiden and due to his close connection with Hobbs Sensei his instruction on kata is taken as gospel. I feel very privileged to be taught by Goodier sensei but as he no longer runs the club he's not there every week and is often travelling to instruct Dentokan clubs overseas. Personally I feel Nigel's approach is closest to that of Hobbs Sensei.

Something else that Nigel infact brought to my attention after my last grading was that here in the UK we are the only clubs within Dentokan who grade in both variations and kata. While Hobbs Sensei gave permission it was an innovation introduced by the Ipswich (East Coast) club. Since learning this I have had very mixed feelings about why we grade differently as our grading practice is split between kata, variations and knife defence. There are times when I feel one or all three suffer because of this. That is not to say I don't think variations are important - when I first began training it was the most exciting thing for me, but now I realize the importance of kata and mastering the form.

Neither of my two clubs practice Kokamishin-Ryu; from my knowledge only Lloyd Allum Kaiden Sensei of the Ipswich dojo teaches Kokamishin-Ryu and indeed the Ipswich dojo is the hombu for Kokamishin-Ryu in the UK. Hobbs Sensei came over to Ipswich last year and taught a seminar on Kokamishin-Ryu so I have some training in it but due to the fact that the Ipswich dojo is about 45-50 mins from my town I do not train there regularly, as it is I already commute to my two clubs, which are closer.

Regarding my concerns I have gently voiced some of them before, but I don't think anything will change. Our clubs seem to be too influenced by Ipswich to mirror those of the USA branch of Dentokan. The frustrating thing is that there are not that many Dentokan AJJ clubs in the UK, most of them are concentrated around East Anglia so I have very little choice if I want to continue with the art. As long as I am living here in the UK I definitely intend to carry on training in AJJ but I will probably convert to Aikido if I moved.

I am also very interested in Daito-Ryu AJJ and would potentially cross-train if it became a possibility, but I still think I would make Aikido my primary art in future.

In regards to "variations" during testing are you referring to oyo waza (applied techniques). Our testing is the same as yours then. I actually enjoy the inclusion of both applied techniques and knife defenses. It keeps training more interesting. If we only practiced basic kata and nothing else I think it would get pretty boring. Our group also practices Kokamishin so a lot of those techniques find their way into our "applied" curriculum. Interestingly a number of Kokamishin techniques are very similar to Aikido.

In regards to "variations" during testing are you referring to oyo waza (applied techniques). Our testing is the same as yours then. I actually enjoy the inclusion of both applied techniques and knife defenses. It keeps training more interesting. If we only practiced basic kata and nothing else I think it would get pretty boring. Our group also practices Kokamishin so a lot of those techniques find their way into our "applied" curriculum. Interestingly a number of Kokamishin techniques are very similar to Aikido.

We never use the term oyo waza but applied techniques sounds very like variations. Don't get me wrong I think applied techniques and knife defenses are very important both to the art and self-defence; knife defence is one of my favourite things to do because I think it is so useful and it really tests your reactions and muscle memory. Perhaps I have not found the harmony and balance between them in myself. The month or so leading up to a grading is quite a stressful time just because there is so much to practice and sometimes when you don't have a regular uke it is hard to feel like you are making progress because you have to constantly adjust to a new body type/strength/agility/skill level etc. I think that is what has caused my training to suffer (if indeed it ever has suffered) the most not having a regular training partner.

It might interest you to know that Okyuama wasn't a legitimate Shiatsu practitioner. He never had proper training. However, Irie-Sensei went to school and is a licensed Shiatsu practitioner. Hobbs-Sensei learned Shiatsu through his Kokodo Jujutsu training. I think it is more accurate to say that legitimate Shiatsu training is a part of Kokodo.

Given that Okuyama, and other pioneers of "shiatsu" were concurrently learning and codifying their respective approaches to shiatsu during the early 20th century, the burden of proof for being "legitimate" for those pioneers is obviously different than what it's been since the 1950s, when shiatsu certification began, according to various online sources (Hakkoryu was formalized in 1941, but Okuyama had been teaching an integrated system of jujutsu and shiatsu for some years prior).

The key acid test for being "legitimate", of course, is does it work and have a track record? Several generations of those who have studied and received Hakkoryu Koho Igaku Shiatsu as part of our training know it does, so lets defer to a public testimonial from someone of note outside of the ryu whose credibility is well established among many if not most members of this website (scroll down to the section titled "Unsolicited Endorsement"): http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ight=Hakko+ryu

Bottom line: in the course of my studies of Hakkoryu jujutsu and shiatsu, including instruction from Yasuhiro Sensei as a Hakko Denshin Ryu / KoKoDo student, I can attest that shiatsu is an integral and effective component of both KoKoDo and mainline Hakkoryu.

Regarding the original poster's conundrum, I wish you all the best in finding satisfaction in your training. If you enjoy the Dentokan curriculum in general, then perhaps take a cue from Mr. Stevens and work with like-minded students on more dynamic applications of the techniques and principles (outside of the dojo, if necessary).

We never use the term oyo waza but applied techniques sounds very like variations. Don't get me wrong I think applied techniques and knife defenses are very important both to the art and self-defence; knife defence is one of my favourite things to do because I think it is so useful and it really tests your reactions and muscle memory. Perhaps I have not found the harmony and balance between them in myself. The month or so leading up to a grading is quite a stressful time just because there is so much to practice and sometimes when you don't have a regular uke it is hard to feel like you are making progress because you have to constantly adjust to a new body type/strength/agility/skill level etc. I think that is what has caused my training to suffer (if indeed it ever has suffered) the most not having a regular training partner.

Have you visited any other dojos yet? I'm curious as to hear how you felt experiencing a different art. A recent experience has solidified my view that we are just practicing Jujutsu.

Have you visited any other dojos yet? I'm curious as to hear how you felt experiencing a different art. A recent experience has solidified my view that we are just practicing Jujutsu.

Thanks for asking, no I haven't visited another dojo yet; there is an Aikido club in my home town that meets on a Saturday morning which is the most natural club to start cross-training in. However, I have a grading coming up next month and so have been concentrating on my AJJ. Currently I have decided to focus on my AJJ until I get to shodan and then begin cross-training when I have a better foundation in AJJ. I do watch a lot of Aikido/Jujutsu videos on youtube and pick up the odd dvd occassionally too, to supplement my learning. I have been very impressed with the Aikido Howcast tutorials just recently.

What was your recent experience and how did it affirm your view between the connection of Aikido and (Aiki)Jujutsu?

I was supposed to grade for nidan in September, but I haven't been able to train as regularly the past couple of months due to grad school and teaching a course so I'm putting it off until next year. I've never been in much of a rush to grade. Good luck with your exam. One word of advice: slow down. Give yourself some time between techniques to gather yourself.

I've recently felt like referring to what we do as Aikijujutsu was inaccurate. Working with a high-level Daitoryu practitioner this past weekend confirmed that. It is "mechanical" Jujutsu. Yes, it is complex and we incorporate concepts of kuzushi, etc., but I don't feel like there is "aiki" like you see in Daitoryu. I concede that I haven't trained with Irie-Sensei, but from what I gather from those who have is that he has really polished, excellent Jujutsu. I'm not sure he would argue with that considering he named his art KoKoDo Jujutsu. Okuyama named his art Hakkoryu Jujutsu for the same reason, I would assume. If he would have received higher level instruction in Daitoryu that may have changed things.

thank you for your insights. From the Daito-Ryu AJJ dvds I own, their kata seems similar to the Dentokan/Hakkoryu version; do you think that the emergence of Aikido as the dominant aiki art in Japan has had an impact in the evolution of Daito-Ryu AJJ? From what I've heard there are some Daito-Ryu schools that go under the name Aikido in Japan.

I agree with you though Hakkoryu and Kokodo don't include aiki in the name of their art and this probably is a reflection of their style of Jujutsu. I do think that the aiki in Dentokan AJJ is subtle compared to Aikido; in fact just last week we had an evening of practising aiki techniques because our instructor thought we needed to understand the aiki in our art better.

I am enjoying my AJJ more now, I am not worrying about the grading (although I am still eager to do well and pass naturally).

Okuyama named his art Hakkoryu Jujutsu . . . I would assume. If he would have received higher level instruction in Daitoryu that may have changed things.

Okuyama's receipt of kyoju-dairi in Daito-ryu is nothing to sneeze at (given in absolute terms relative to the number of people Sokaku Takeda trained, this was a rare accomplishment), nor is the time he spent training directly with Takeda.

Also, a long-time publicly divulged core tenet of Hakkoryu's pedagogy is that "Hakkoryu unites martial arts and medicine so as to show clearly they are but one and the same". Given that Daito-ryu "aiki", as defined and/or expressed by any of the major legitimate lineages, is not reliant on shiatsu or kyusho-jutsu, it makes sense, as a licensed (Daito-ryu) aiki-jujutsu instructor, that Okuyama understood the difference between what he was teaching under Takeda's banner and what he planned to teach going forward -- and so chose his words carefully when branding his new art (of course, this does not mean that aiki was excluded as a notable aspect of Hakkoryu).

thank you for your insights. From the Daito-Ryu AJJ dvds I own, their kata seems similar to the Dentokan/Hakkoryu version; do you think that the emergence of Aikido as the dominant aiki art in Japan has had an impact in the evolution of Daito-Ryu AJJ? From what I've heard there are some Daito-Ryu schools that go under the name Aikido in Japan.

I agree with you though Hakkoryu and Kokodo don't include aiki in the name of their art and this probably is a reflection of their style of Jujutsu. I do think that the aiki in Dentokan AJJ is subtle compared to Aikido; in fact just last week we had an evening of practising aiki techniques because our instructor thought we needed to understand the aiki in our art better.

I am enjoying my AJJ more now, I am not worrying about the grading (although I am still eager to do well and pass naturally).

To be honest with you I'm confused as to the application of the term "aiki" at this point. After experiencing the type of aiki utilized by the Ginjukai it is clear that Hakkoryu doesn't have these types of body skills, even at the highest levels. Is our art simply lacking aiki or do we have a different "flavor" of aiki?

I'm curious as to how your instructor explains aiki techniques to your group. Does he talk about connecting your center to uke's or moving them off their center? The aiki seminar I attended promoted a concept in regard to center that I'd never heard before, which made complete sense and is different from what I've seen in Hakkoryu or Aikido.

If I recall correctly I once listened to a lecture by Stanley Pranin where he discussed speaking with a number of Daitoryu instructors who referred to their arts simply as Aikido.

Okuyama's receipt of kyoju-dairi in Daito-ryu is nothing to sneeze at (given in absolute terms relative to the number of people Sokaku Takeda trained, this was a rare accomplishment), nor is the time he spent training directly with Takeda.

Also, a long-time publicly divulged core tenet of Hakkoryu's pedagogy is that "Hakkoryu unites martial arts and medicine so as to show clearly they are but one and the same". Given that Daito-ryu "aiki", as defined and/or expressed by any of the major legitimate lineages, is not reliant on shiatsu or kyusho-jutsu, it makes sense, as a licensed (Daito-ryu) aiki-jujutsu instructor, that Okuyama understood the difference between what he was teaching under Takeda's banner and what he planned to teach going forward -- and so chose his words carefully when branding his new art (of course, this does not mean that aiki was excluded as a notable aspect of Hakkoryu).

How far along did Okuyama progress in the Daitoryu curriculum? It is my understanding that he trained under a "journeyman" and not someone high-level. Did he progress past the Hiden Mokuroku? If Okuyama did have aiki skills derived from Daitoryu did he simply withhold teaching them?

Can your clarify your statement in regard to Daitoryu aiki not being reliant on shiatsu or kyusho? Are you implying that Okuyama may have possibly combined his shiatsu and kyusho with aiki he learned through Daitoryu training and developed a different flavor of "body skills"? If so, I find the concept fascinating.

Looking at the Hakkoryu curriculum it would make sense that Okyuama simply took what he learned of the Hiden Mokuroku and threw in some shiatsu/kyusho and called it a day.

Hosaku Matsuda, who is often cited along with Takeda as having taught Daito-ryu to Okuyama, by numerous accounts also was awarded kyoju-dairi by Takeda. So, even though he's not a relative household name in these discussion circles compared to others who were awarded the same certificate or menkyo-kaiden, that doesn't automatically mean he wasn't at least adequately, if not comparably skilled.

As for the Daito-ryu Hiden Mokuroku influencing the kihon waza, it also seems to be the foundation for the various Aikido styles (Aikikai, Tomiki, Yoshinkan, etc.) regardless of when in the 20th century they were founded -- and Morihei Ueshiba was considered no slouch regarding aiki.

A safe bet is that Okuyama's "aiki" was similar to that of mainline Daito-ryu (a position Andrew Bryant supports) vs., for example, what you experienced from Howard Popkin. Even if that's the case, then the difference, again, lies in the nexus between the jujutsu and shiatsu -- so yes, a "different flavor of body skills", but that's what Hakkoryu has maintained all along.

That is quite interesting. I was not aware that Matsuda received kyoju-dairi from Takeda. Considering big names like Sagawa, Hisa, and Ueshiba received that licensure it seems pretty significant. If I recall correctly to receive kyoju-dairi you have to know the hiden mokuroku and aiki no jutsu techniques. That would mean that Matsuda had significant exposure to Daitoryu aiki. Did he spend a significant amount of time with Takeda?

That is quite interesting. I was not aware that Matsuda received kyoju-dairi from Takeda. Considering big names like Sagawa, Hisa, and Ueshiba received that licensure it seems pretty significant. If I recall correctly to receive kyoju-dairi you have to know the hiden mokuroku and aiki no jutsu techniques. That would mean that Matsuda had significant exposure to Daitoryu aiki. Did he spend a significant amount of time with Takeda?

Sokaku Takeda gave a number of people the Kyoju Dairi license, including Matsuda.

To be honest with you I'm confused as to the application of the term "aiki" at this point. After experiencing the type of aiki utilized by the Ginjukai it is clear that Hakkoryu doesn't have these types of body skills, even at the highest levels. Is our art simply lacking aiki or do we have a different "flavor" of aiki?.

Its a mistake to define the core skills of any art by a sampling of its adepts.
Sad.....but true.
The DR people I meet are just flummoxed as any sampling of Aikido people. Blame it on the teaching or the students or the model..whatever. Lets just be an active part in taking more control and restoring the power there once was.
Dan

A hello to Mert, I enjoyed meeting you in New Jersey last month at the Hakkoryu Embukai, hope to see you again.

As I wrote to Richard in a private message earlier, I wish you could read my twelve year old posts on e-budo.com about the "is there aiki in Hakkoryu" subject. I'm still a student, but in hindsight reading my words back then is both amusing and embarrassing.

Hakkoryu was and is a "jujutsu" for the vast majority who study, and the techniques are taught in a way that's not tough to grasp, and this is by design. Receiving a fourth degree black belt in Hakkoryu only means that a person has received and is (according to their Shihan) proficient in the Shodan, Nidan Sandan and Yondan-gi waza sets, which are not lengthy.

That's it. The intent was and is that the individual should be infused with decent jujutsu techniques. It seems that Shodai Soke Okuyama's goal was to prepare people quickly for their own self-defense, which became particularly important for people in Occupied Japan at those times, but reserved an incredible amount of teaching for those who stayed with him and persevered.

For a lot of years I was a frustrated Yondan and sought out the answer to my question "where is the aiki?" Shogen Okabayashi was the one who answered my question and shared with me. He also impressed upon me that I was too stupid to realize it then, and I should work harder in my own school, but like many of us, I had little patience. I was, and still am an idiot sometimes. In the end, his advice rang true for me.

In Hakkoryu, the Shihan Jikiden is the first time we get some lessons about ourselves, the body, what have you. With the Kaiden teachings it goes further.

Sandaikichu (three big pillars) is a whole new ball game. It answered all my questions and now I am the one who feels like a beginner all over again after 33 years.

A hello to Mert, I enjoyed meeting you in New Jersey last month at the Hakkoryu Embukai, hope to see you again.

As I wrote to Richard in a private message earlier, I wish you could read my twelve year old posts on e-budo.com about the "is there aiki in Hakkoryu" subject. I'm still a student, but in hindsight reading my words back then is both amusing and embarrassing.

Hakkoryu was and is a "jujutsu" for the vast majority who study, and the techniques are taught in a way that's not tough to grasp, and this is by design. Receiving a fourth degree black belt in Hakkoryu only means that a person has received and is (according to their Shihan) proficient in the Shodan, Nidan Sandan and Yondan-gi waza sets, which are not lengthy.

That's it. The intent was and is that the individual should be infused with decent jujutsu techniques. It seems that Shodai Soke Okuyama's goal was to prepare people quickly for their own self-defense, which became particularly important for people in Occupied Japan at those times, but reserved an incredible amount of teaching for those who stayed with him and persevered.

For a lot of years I was a frustrated Yondan and sought out the answer to my question "where is the aiki?" Shogen Okabayashi was the one who answered my question and shared with me. He also impressed upon me that I was too stupid to realize it then, and I should work harder in my own school, but like many of us, I had little patience. I was, and still am an idiot sometimes. In the end, his advice rang true for me.

In Hakkoryu, the Shihan Jikiden is the first time we get some lessons about ourselves, the body, what have you. With the Kaiden teachings it goes further.

Sandaikichu (three big pillars) is a whole new ball game. It answered all my questions and now I am the one who feels like a beginner all over again after 33 years.

Is there "aiki" in Hakkoryu?

MAYBE, it depends on you. Good news, it's good jujutsu!

If you want more than that, how far do you want to go?

Devon

This is most insightful and thank you for your honesty. As a practitioner of Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu, which has close links to and roots in Hakkoryu I found this explanation of the methodology and rationale of the Hakkoryu curriculum of great usefulness. I am also encouraged to hear that there is still a wealth of martial and aiki knowledge and skills to learn past Yondan. As a Dentokan AJJ practitioner I want to continue for as long as I can in my study of Aiki-Jujutsu and pray that I may one day be able to reflect upon 33 years experience.

This is most insightful and thank you for your honesty. As a practitioner of Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu, which has close links to and roots in Hakkoryu I found this explanation of the methodology and rationale of the Hakkoryu curriculum of great usefulness. I am also encouraged to hear that there is still a wealth of martial and aiki knowledge and skills to learn past Yondan. As a Dentokan AJJ practitioner I want to continue for as long as I can in my study of Aiki-Jujutsu and pray that I may one day be able to reflect upon 33 years experience.

Ewen,

I'm sorry for the late reply.

You're very welcome, I'm happy to have offered some insight into things here if it's of use.

Please understand though that my comments only reflect my own experience. I don't have any experience with Dentokan other than having enjoyed some great correspondence with Mr. Hobbs in the past; we share some background including the late Shogo Kuniba.

I don't know how the Dentokan teachings compare to the Hakkoryu curriculum, so you may or may not receive the same input and/or experience I have.

from what I know Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu is basically Hakkoryu Jujutsu with some slight variations in the kata and changes to a few names here and there. At least that is the impression I am given by the senior Shihans at my club.