Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I have a best friend who is gay. If he gets married, I won't attend his wedding, but I don't feel right telling him he can't get married, even though in our state it wouldn't be recognized legally. I support him and hope he is happy, while at the same time I recognize that any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and the only true marriage is between one man and one woman.

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian. But it is okay to support him for it.

So is fornication, adultery and divorce. All of those 3 are far more conducive to the breakdown of the family, and a far greater threat to traditional marriage. Should we make those illegal? Or is it possible to support people's freedom to do those things without encouraging them.

Read the Fathers, there are few things condemned with the same frequency as fornication. Yet no one ever talks about it. People consider it entirely normal, shrug their shoulders, and think nothing of it. When people start screaming about the evils of fornication, I'll take seriously the hysteria about homosexuality.

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian. But it is okay to support him for it.

Are you really unable to see the difference between sins that harm other people and those that don't? You can't see the difference between two illicit partners having consentual sex and rape??

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian. But it is okay to support him for it.

Are you really unable to see the difference between sins that harm other people and those that don't? You can't see the difference between two illicit partners having consentual sex and rape??

Homosexuality doesn't harm other people?

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret. It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

So is fornication, adultery and divorce. All of those 3 are far more conducive to the breakdown of the family, and a far greater threat to traditional marriage. Should we make those illegal? Or is it possible to support people's freedom to do those things without encouraging them.

Read the Fathers, there are few things condemned with the same frequency as fornication. Yet no one ever talks about it. People consider it entirely normal, shrug their shoulders, and think nothing of it. When people start screaming about the evils of fornication, I'll take seriously the hysteria about homosexuality.

Those things were illegal. And I'm Filipino, divorce is illegal in the Philippines and we are fighting to keep it that way.

So yes, if there is an opportunity to make them illegal, we should support that and fight for it.

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian. But it is okay to support him for it.

Are you really unable to see the difference between sins that harm other people and those that don't? You can't see the difference between two illicit partners having consentual sex and rape??

Homosexuality doesn't harm other people?

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret. It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret. It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God. How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty? How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom? By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret. It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.

No, you're using poor reasoning. Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian. We should never, ever support anything against being a good Christian. We are supposed to help lead these people to the Kingdom, not away from it. If you put a delineation between Church and secular and think you can support anything secular is wrong. As I said, Scripture is very clear, we live in this world but are not of this world. To support secular agendas which are clearly sinful violates that and we commit sin ourselves.

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God. How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty? How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom? By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

Do you think if you supported state prohibition of every kind of sinful behaviour it would lead to the kind of society in which people would be led to the Kingdom of God?

Secondly, freedom is not anti-Christian. Freedom is an essential feature of our relationship with God. We must chose righteousness, it is not forced upon us. Without freedom, there can be no such choice. Love cannot exist where there is only compulsion. So, freedom to sin is something God gave us from the start.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

It is really a shame that so many put politics before religion. Having political ideas and trying to find loopholes to fit them into the faith doesn't work. Our faith should influence our politics, not the other way around.

I know you would like to turn this into a debate about whether Orthodox should care about civil issues and how gay marriage relates to that, but if people were to actually read and see what I said in my posts, they would realize that is not what I was talking about at all.

Quote

I am surprised that the Russian Orthodox Church would use a man in their ads who espouses views that the Church has unabashedly condemned.

The Russian Orthodox Church has condemned civil gay marriage within the state. Not just condemning gay marriage as it relates to the Orthodox Church, but within the state, as a civil issue. Therefore, I said it was odd that the Russian Orthodox Church used a man who supported civil gay marriage and condemned churches that do not agree with gay marriage (his own Orthodox Church would fall under that umbrella) in their ads as a model of Orthodoxy.

This I represented in my post which says:

Quote

The Russian Orthodox Church used Tom Hanks in one of their Orthodoxy ads.

The Russian Orthodox Church has combatted gay marriage being performed at all within the Russian Federation.

Do you think if you supported state prohibition of every kind of sinful behaviour it would lead to the kind of society in which people would be led to the Kingdom of God?

Secondly, freedom is not anti-Christian. Freedom is an essential feature of our relationship with God. We must chose righteousness, it is not forced upon us. Without freedom, there can be no such choice. Love cannot exist where there is only compulsion. So, freedom to sin is something God gave us from the start.

Encouraging sin is anti-Christian, supporting freedom is not.

I don't have a problem with the state doing it. Like I said, at some point there is only so much we can do. But for an Orthodox Christian to actually support or be in favor of it? That is my problem.

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God. How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty? How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom? By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

You are going to be in for a rude awakening:

Rude awakening about what? All I said is that Christians of any kind shouldn't be voicing their support for any government initiative towards things we consider sinful. There is a huge difference between, "there is nothing I can do to stop the government from legalizing gay marriage," to, "I support gay marriage". I live in Canada, gay marriage is a forgone conclusion here. I actually know some who are married as a gay couple. I did not protest outside their homes or openly opposed them. But neither did I say, "congratulations!" Or anything that would support such actions. I do have gay friends and I do wish for them to become good Christians. I don't rub my faith in their face, but neither do I applaud them about their obviously sinful behavior.

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God. How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty? How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom? By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

You are going to be in for a rude awakening:

Rude awakening about what? All I said is that Christians of any kind shouldn't be voicing their support for any government initiative towards things we consider sinful. There is a huge difference between, "there is nothing I can do to stop the government from legalizing gay marriage," to, "I support gay marriage". I live in Canada, gay marriage is a forgone conclusion here. I actually know some who are married as a gay couple. I did not protest outside their homes or openly opposed them. But neither did I say, "congratulations!" Or anything that would support such actions. I do have gay friends and I do wish for them to become good Christians. I don't rub my faith in their face, but neither do I applaud them about their obviously sinful behavior.

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret. It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.

Your whole outlook is an innovation.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God. How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty? How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom? By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

Exactly.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret. It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.

No, you're using poor reasoning. Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian. We should never, ever support anything against being a good Christian. We are supposed to help lead these people to the Kingdom, not away from it. If you put a delineation between Church and secular and think you can support anything secular is wrong. As I said, Scripture is very clear, we live in this world but are not of this world. To support secular agendas which are clearly sinful violates that and we commit sin ourselves.

Amen.

Why should our conscience be divided? If the Lord is God, worship him. If Baal is, then worship him. Why suppose you can do both?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.

Should Orthodox people support something that will lead other people away from Orthodoxy?

Can Orthodox support genocide as long as it is the state doing the genocide and not the Church? And perhaps as long as those being killed are not Orthodox? Can the Orthodox support incest and pedophilia?

Absolutely not.

"My prayer shall ever be against the things with which they are well pleased, their judges falling upon the rock have been swallowed up."

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Our stance on civil (not church) marriage remains fundamentally a civil, or even a political issue. Some here seem to argue that civil regulations be conformed to canons within the Church. While that view is worth discussing (and before I enter into that, I will wait whether the moderators say it should be done in the Politics section), this view has never been dogmatised or even agreed upon by the Church.

On the contrary, I might just point to the fact that many Greek-American politicians are members in good standing and even received official honours, in spite of endorsing legal abortion. (I hope we all agree that abortion is worse than gay marriage, because one is murder and the other isn't). So I would conclude from that, that it is not necessary that you want civil law to be in conformity with Church canons, in order to be a church member in good standing. And I believe this applies even to the Moscow Patriarchate: Whereas the MP has expressed a preference for a legal abortion ban in Russia, they have never exclued President Putin from communion or whatever, because he hasnt enacted one.

Many murderous tyrants were honored by Orthodox clergy for one reason or another, it does not excuse them. The Church has not swallowed the secularist line that it must have no say in what the state does.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.

It seems only certain people on this thread somehow link civil contract between two people and a Church mystery.

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.

Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.

Can one support civil rights that is against Church teaching and still be Orthodox?

Should Orthodox people support something that will lead other people away from Orthodoxy?

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Quote

Can Orthodox support genocide as long as it is the state doing the genocide and not the Church? And perhaps as long as those being killed are not Orthodox? Can the Orthodox support incest and pedophilia?

No one from a third party is being harmed by a gay marriage.

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?

Remarriage is a human innovation.

One tolerated because of God's humility in giving the keys and his abundant mercy.

But it is a human innovation nonetheless.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 02:40:24 AM by NicholasMyra »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Western secular democracy is an innovation, but is the political context we're discussing. You can't apply the standards of Byzantine theocracy (the ideal, not the historical reality) to America or Western Europe. Trust not in princes, etc. Homosexual relationships are sinful, not because they harm others (unlike things like genocide, murder, paedophilia, and date-rape), but because they are contrary to the divine purpose behind human sexuality. In other words, our objection to it is theological. A secular government, by definition, can never uphold any principle on the basis of theology. It necessitates the divorcing of a moral position from its meaning and purpose, and makes it little more than empty moralism. That, I believe, can be more of a hindrance than a help. While I personally do not favour the legalising of gay marriage (I'm somewhat indifferent to how it's viewed by the secular government), I object to the idea that those who do are necessarily anti-Christian or anti-Orthodox. It is the idea of freedom, limited only when one person's freedom infringes on another's, that means I could abandon the heresy of Protestantism and freely worship as an Orthodox Christian, a numerically insignificant minority, without persecution. I find calling those who chose to render unto Ceasar and support that all be equal under the law anti-Christian quite presumptuous.

So yes, if there is an opportunity to make them illegal, we should support that and fight for it.

Have you ever loaned someone money on interest? Have you ever borrowed money at interest? Used a credit card?

« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 05:44:33 PM by NicholasMyra »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?

Tell me, how are these two separate things related.

I think one possible response would be to say that marriage is part of natural law. Any marriage (civil or otherwise) in human law that conflicts with, and is contrary to, marriage as per natural law is wrong. The latter precedes the former.

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?

Tell me, how are these two separate things related.

I think one possible response would be to say that marriage is part of natural law. Any marriage (civil or otherwise) in human law that conflicts with, and is contrary to, marriage as per natural law is wrong. The latter precedes the former.

Through a financial institution or not? I only borrow money again from people dear to me. And I have never been charged interest. Of course banks are not my friend nor family (I wish they are) so if its through a bank then yes, obviously, there is interest.

Look, we can allow divorce and remarriage by ekonomia. Can we do the same for same sex marriage? If a gay couple become Orthodox, does the Church by ekonomia accept them as Orthodox Christians and married?