Discussion: Testing

TestingTri18, how much trouble would it be or maybe you already have done the testing of the speed of the balls first 100 feet hit with todays composite bats & balls versus the metal & wood bats & balls used back then. After reading your post, I would suspect you have an idea what they would be. Thanks

Can you also test the speed of the pitch when the pitcher releases the ball underhand!The angle of the lob to best hit it at! If i pull the ball will it exit faster than driving it backside prolly depends on where the pitch is, which calf do i apply wintercrest too? does it matter if i am righty or lefty when apply wintercrest. also can you use wintercrest for monkey azz?

Pricer,
There are too many variables involved and a lot of data to simply answer that...ie balls used, types of aluminum, single versus double walls, composites etc... You can google it and get tons of info or I am happy to discuss with you if you want to call.
5tool, that's funny and I don't care who you are!! Lol
Alan
Team Ambush

Alan, competent testers would isolate and control all of those variables. I can't think of too much testing in any walk of life that does not have a plethora of variables, but they all get accounted for and controlled by proper testing techniques and competent testers. That is not a very good excuse, errrrr reason.

Disagree. Such testing could not be done because of the effect of time on the older balls and bats.
A much simpler and perhaps more valuable test would be to use well broken in Senior Bats, USSSA
Bats and ASA bats and compare the speed of the ball off the bat using various current balls. Although I can't prove it, from some things I have read, I do not believe the differences are as great as some think. The key is that the USSSA
and ASA bats must be well broken in. The western Reebok rep Ed has come close to saying the ASA Reeboks when well broken in get very hot. Even an
extra 20 or 30 feet at the end is not much of a time difference at the pitcher's mound or at the
3rd base bag.

Gary, Gary, Gary, why don't we go back to balls used in the 70 and 80 and 90s and get Aluminum bats and test their exit speed and then test the balls and bats we are using now.... I bet you wouldn't find not much difference!

What I do find are guys who are hitting today's senior bat/ball combo harder and further in their 50s than they were with those other combos in their 20s and 30s. Not everyone, but many. And I know many others have seen the same thing.

Seems to me that something has changed. And I don't think it is all those guys are working harder or finding Barry Bonds' "fountain of youth".

nobody playing softball today would say if the balls are the same the aluminum bats can compete with the composites... the bat and ball combo has been a balancing act for some time now and I believe they got it right... Those that play the game are not complaining for the most part... If you want to hear complaining just play with a crap ball! I don't play in leagues with crap balls!

swing, you are dancing around the subject. You really don't see guys doing things now they weren't 20 or 30 years ago?

As far as not playing with a "crap ball" (subjective term), if the ball is the same for both teams than it is equal competition. Maybe not ideal, I suppose, but some do still play for competition and not just to turn the games into HR derby with a bunch of silly rules.

Perhaps you would, I don't know. But you really think all the senior players can say that? I am sure not. Otherwise, why do so many insist on the special bats? They must have some reason, and I don't believe it is because of the possibility of their opponents shaving bats.

G 19 I stopped playing 40s because of the shaved bats... I didn't want to have to cheat to beat the guys that are cheating... I see the same guys swinging their senior bats that were cheating and guess what... they are not hitting the ball any farther... It levels the playing field. G19 it's not going to change.. only way to have a 100 percent level playing field is to go back to metal single walls! and Great balls! Good luck with that though!

Do what you want, but it seems a waste all the time and energy spent by some on this board. What is the motivation, by some, to post those thousands of times with such negative results. Nobody is perfect, what is the contribution in continuing to slight others ideas and preferences. Lack of respect for others usually reflects lack of self respect. Anyway, too bad so much nonsense, posing as intelligence interferes with the real purpose of this board. I know I don't want to share more than minimally due to the negative climate cultivated by the same few who seem to be lacking something very fundamental. How about more respect and positive purpose to comments.

Swing, what you are leaving out is how much they change the fundamental way the game is played. The oldest, slowest group using the liveliest legal bats results in pitcher's boxes and hockey goalie gear.

I know it isn't changing, fragile egos won't allow it.

CAPT, what is the "real purpose"? To make this board a circle jerk with guys who just want to discuss how great a game with teeny brackets and very limited participation is?

Whoa boys! This is not what I was looking for. Just a real simple question and I was not looking for a precise answer. Did Tri18 ever test the bat ball combo previously used versus the bats & balls of todays game. Tri18, I think or feel you already have an answer that would suffice. Thanks

Pricer,
We have seen quite an evolution in equipment and that's in bats and balls. While the composites give some an advantage, the 52/500 balls of yesteryear coupled with high tech aluminum resulted in very similar results. The bats of today coupled with yesteryears balls would produce some crazy results. But...as bats get better ball performance has been adjusted to that in today's game. Ie...drop ball performance to equalize the higher performance composites. There are so many different types of aluminum, wall thicknesses, double walls, combination composite aluminums, and a huge variety of coefficients and compression combinations in balls that huge amounts of data are generated.let me simply say that today's composites with an average 44/375 ball result in slight performance gains over a "standard ball/bat" combination of the past. If you look at lab data compared with field testing you will find anywhere from 3-8%....
Consider this also...even though some of us are senior age a lot of us have been staying in shape and have been swinging a bat for 25 plus years. Conditioning of athletes have greatly improved in our lifetimes so us old guys deserve a little credit too. It's not all just the bats! LOL
Stay well,
Alan
Team Ambush

Pricer-one more factor-the bats of the 70's and early 80's were considerably heavier with a much smaller sweet spot. I used a 38 oz for a long time and came down in weight slowly through the years. Lighter bats most likely result in faster bat speed and harder line drives and the larger sweet spot creates more sweet spot line drives. Also, the pitchers are as much as 15 feet farther from the plate than they used to be. I have a hunch that the actual difference in the amount of time the ball takes to reach the pitcher is minutely fractional, at best. I also have a hunch that if we were playing with the equipment of the 70's and 80's that the pitchers would still be wearing equipment to protect themselves because of diminished reactions-which means the assertion that livelier senior bats is the reason for that evolution of the game is wrong.

I doubt very much there is anyone using 30-40 year old bats in games these days as a regular stick. If you are, enjoy it but I doubt you really are.
I do know there are leagues that only allow wood or single wall bats but only the bats are that old they still make them the same way but there are Bamboo ones not as well. And the SW bats are better that those of the past.
So why bring all the stuff up you, don't use it.
Oh sorry, I know why... the so called educated one with no validity. He should stick to them.

Taits, I would hope you've directed your last line in your comments to someone other than me. Sometimes people with some knowledge can be pompous assholes! I quess this was the last time I'll ask the so called educated softball people any questions!

Gary 19, look how most of these discussions you are involved in turn out We only have so many breaths, why waste them. Senior softball is a gift our fathers never had, its not perfect, improve what you can, enjoy what you have.

Pricer, It was a generalized reply primarily about the past rather the present. There are many out there w\o a diploma who are more that adept in proving a point.
For what's it worth, I think Allen is more than capable as well as knowledgeable about the bats out there. We have corresponded and have much in common in that respect.
Watch out for the line with the bait, the fisherman lol, is always looking to hook a fish.

I don't think it has as much to do with which composite bat/ball but the complete skills of the hitters for exit speed. I have pitched against big guys who hit deep towering drives or slow ground balls and little guys who smoke the ball up the middle. The only constant would be to get one of those robot machines that swings a bat at a constant preset speed/varied bat head speed and keep interchanging balls and bats for an accurate result. It would be an interesting study and I am sure there are a few out there who have the equipment to do this.

Gary 19, I think its about respect. You are intelligent, and know you are often insulting. I believe you are likely a good guy if met personally. I believe this message board can be addicting and encourage confrontation. Non of us are perfect. Lets just cut each other some slack. Admittedly, the remarks and attitudes of some on this board can warrant confrontation, but it can get carried away. I wish you and yours the best, Maybe we just get caught up in this stuff and lose perspective. I know Ive said more than enough.

Gary19, I failed to see where Alan said anywhere that testing cannot be done! Why don't you give him a call as he suggests and discuss the issue with him personally? Or is it that you don't have the guts to talk to him about it and would rather snipe at him on your keyboard? Your disrespect is pathetic to say the least. The man has forgot more about the game than you ever knew.

CAPT D5, I'm not sure Gary19 is a good guy as you suggest or he wouldn't act like the buffoon that he so often emulates day in and day out. It does get really boring after awhile and is actually comical in a sense. He sounds like a tape recorder. To bad he can't be erased. Has anyone really ever played against this legend in his own mind?

Alan, You are absolutely correct. Gary19's response is not worthy of a response as are about 99 out of every 100 of his. You are truly one of the guys out there who are genuinely trying to help the Senior Softball Community. Thanks for that.

You've got to ignore G19 when he types something that lacks logic or is completely against senior softball. I used to be like a lot of you and would respond when it really was not crucial for me to do so. A few years ago, I had a cracked Ultra 2 that I wanted to finish off on his head. I finished the Ultra off at practice and Gary was safe. I no longer have these feelings because I stay away from his most venomous posts.

Ahhh, Gary19 is in heaven again because he successfully hijacked another thread and ticked people off. He's doing fist pumps over the keyboard again.What a sad little man he must be to have this as his main enjoyment in life. And he doesn't even play in SSUSA.

How "illogical" was it to point out to Alan that his excuses were just that. Or that testing/experimentation has controls and variables, and a good tester can control both and get credible results. (Sorry Mark for going somewhere that will clearly be over your head)

No Gary, if you go back to the original message and read it, it asks if Tri18 if it's possible to test the speeds of today's bats/balls verses bats/balls used back in the day.

When Tri18 replied, you jumped in and implied he was incompetent.

All Tri18 did was use his softball experience and enginuity to develop a bat that is comparable to the best bats on the market today. Are you jealous you didn't do it?

He never said he was a scientist or that his conclusions were based on actual scientific data. That I'm aware of, no bat manufactuer ever has but it hasn't stopped them from touting their new product as hitting it further or sharper. None of the testing that I've heard people refer to has supplied one bit of actual data. They may show a guy taking a bat out of the wrapper and hitting some balls off a tee and giving his opinion. Ohhh, that's about 400 feet. I haven't seen your comments on their YouTube videos?

So why don't you just go sit in the stands with the other want-to-bes and enjoy the game. Or better yet, just stay home.

Oh, you got me there Gary. I misspelled a word. My gosh, how am I going to sleep tonight.

Who's deflecting now Gary?

You hate the game so much because you never have and never will make a significant contribution to it.

As for the variables - yes, if you wanted to spend hundres of thousands of dollars to set up a very static environment, you may be able to compile data on each bat hitting each ball pitched at a certain speed.

Again, when has any, ANY, bat manufactuer provided this type of data. Come on big boy, give me an instance.

As for my level, you're just showing how little you really know about softball. I don't have to qualify myself to you.

I still do, and I agree completely. But why would you want to make an out?....:)

Tools, why the venom?

"hundreds of thousands"?????? Way to pull that number from your a$$. You could do a very credible, maybe not perfect, test for under a thousand. But the point was, and still is, to say what Alan did in his position was ridiculous.

I don't know if any have, but I also don't know that they publicly made the lame excuse Alan did.

Now what level do you play? Since you call me a wannabe, you must be an is, so tell me exactly what you are in this game. (Hear comes the silence)

Yes, hundreds of thousands. Think about it. You'd need every bat and ball that has been made for softball. That in itself will cost more than the thousand you've quoted. You'd need a device to swing the bat at a calibrated speed each time. You'd need a device to pitch the ball at a calibrated speed each time. You'd need multiple devices that would record the volicity off the bat at various positions in you test environment. You'd need accurate (to the inch) distances in your test environment. And last of all you'd need a facility big enough to house the equipment and allow a softball to be hit and land to accurately measure the distance. Then you can add in controlling the tempeature, humidity and wind resistance.

Besides, in your posts you didn't ask for creditible, did you? You said a competient tester would be able to control the variables. So, how do you control the wind for under a thousand dollars? How do you control the swing of a bat for under a thousand dollars? How do you control the speed of a pitched ball for under a thousand dollars? Specifics please!

And you say you can do all that for under a thousand dollars. Then lets see it big boy. Lets see the Gary19 test center.

"You want to know what level Gary, suit up and get on the field." Seriously, with all of your mouth that is the best you can do? I don't know, but sure seems like you are hiding something.

I might have underestimated, much in the same way you over-estimated.

The speed variance of slow pitches is neglibible, at worst. Wind, assuming it is not gale force and that can be easily controlled, would be neglible over the first 100 feet, which is what Pricer was asking for. Swing speed could be an issue, though using guys without a dog in the fight would help eliminate any bias that could come from guys who want to skew the results.

Gary19, You personally could bring out the venom from a hummingbird. If you were half as smart as you think you are, you'd already know who Beasley is, where he lives, what level he plays, who he plays for and even what number he wears. It's all there for your reading pleasure. Duh!.

You have no point. The response was "too many variables involved and a lot of data to simply answer that". That means it's not a simple answer. Why would you want to do credible maybe not perfect test as you say? What would that prove besides nothing.

Give Alan a call hot shot. You couldn't carry on a credible conversation with him about the subject.

Beasley, the only thing the Gary19 test center could test is peoples patience.

Gary, you're deflecting. I asked for specifics. What, can't you provide them? Come on big boy, we know you can do it. Give us the specifics! Quit BSing around and show us how it's done. You're quick to jump on everyone else about not providing an answer to your questions. Set an examples and show us how it's done.

I hate to break it to you Gary19, but the varibles you describe and your controls are, as you put it BS! Another half a$$ed effort. If you're not going to do any better than that, why do them at all. I can see that you really haven't thought them through. But why haven't you thought them through? Come on big boy, show us how smart you are.

Yes Gary, that's the best I can do. You want to see me play get on a team and come to the field and play. Who I've played for and what I did yesterday, last week, last year or 20 years ago is all history. What counts is what I do in my next game, my next at bat and my next defensive opportunity.

My mouth, you make me laugh. It seems to me that your mouth is the one that's knows around the message board. Seems to me that you're the one hiding - still playing with little boys....

Gary, you're deflecting. I asked for specifics. What, can't you provide them? Come on big boy, we know you can do it. Give us the specifics! Quit BSing around and show us how it's done. You're quick to jump on everyone else about not providing an answer to your questions. Set an examples and show us how it's done.

I hate to break it to you Gary19, but the varibles you describe and your controls are, as you put it BS! Another half a$$ed effort. If you're not going to do any better than that, why do them at all. I can see that you really haven't thought them through. But why haven't you thought them through? Come on big boy, show us how smart you are.

Yes Gary, that's the best I can do. You want to see me play get on a team and come to the field and play. Who I've played for and what I did yesterday, last week, last year or 20 years ago is all history. What counts is what I do in my next game, my next at bat and my next defensive opportunity.

My mouth, you make me laugh. It seems to me that your mouth is the one that's knows around the message board. Seems to me that you're the one hiding - still playing with little boys....

I haven't fully thought it through because bat manufacturing and distribution is not my industry, but sure I can give it a shot.

Wood bats don't have a break-in period, so no issue there. Not a wide variety of these, so amount of testing should not be real long.
Aluminum, not really either, so again no problem there.
Composite, start with brand new bats and use accepted break-in procedures. You seem to think you are good, so those procedures should be well-known by you.

The balls should be a constant. I would use a variety of brands and specifications, so as not to bias the results. New balls can be rotated in to keep them fresh and not bias the results.

Weather can be easily controlled, though a bit of patience might be in order.

I would probably use perhaps 5 hits with each bat-ball combo, I don't believe a need for more, but more would not hurt anything. The variable here would be fatigue on the batter(s) part, so the testing should take more than one day. But I see no harm to that as long as the weather is controlled.

Since you asked, the next two tournaments I'm playing in are The Villages and the SPA World Series. The Villages tournament doesn't use the conventional divisions used by other senior associations but I'm sure our team will be in the upper division of the 50+. At the SPA World Series we will be playing in the Major+ division. Now, does that really tell you anything about me or my abilities?

As for your attempt to provide specifics - YOU FAILED. It's a pitiful start. That's not very specific at all. You barely address one factor of the test and didn't even address it well.

I would have thought for all the crap you give everyone else that you would have jumped at your opportunity to shine. Your opportunity to really show us how smart you are and why we should actually give any creditability to a word you say. But you FAILED.

All you did was validate that when someone on the message board sees a post by Gary19, they should just skip over it because it's no better than the white speck on the top of chicken crap.

Climb back in your recliner, watch your black & white TV, while wearing your wife-beater undershirt, boxers, dress socks and sock garters. Be mad at the world as it passes you by.

"As for your attempt to provide specifics - YOU FAILED. It's a pitiful start. That's not very specific at all.: Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Nor do you insults.

I think instead I will watch my son with 8 properties in South Florida. Or my son in Afghanistan who helps to allow you to freely speak. Or my daughter in med school. Or my youngest two who are both Education majors. Or my graduate degree from one of America's finest universities. Or my wife of 32 years. Or my 3-story colonial. You can watch Cops.

Dang, you got me again. I am the bat boy. When I watch major league baseball I watch the bat boy so that I can see how a professional does it.

But you know, what team I play on or what level I play is misleading. I may be the slim lanky guy that's really not a Major+ player but fills a vital role that makes the team Major+.

As for the insults, I followed your lead big guy. How does it feel to have your BS turned around on you? People that enjoy Senior Softball - even with it's faults - get tired of seeing your "mad at the world attitude" on here.

But I will give you credit that it does appear that you're a good father, husband and provider for your family. Please thank your son for his service and I hope that my kids that are in or have served this country get along better than we have on this board.

And the Cops thing made me laugh because I have been known to watch an episode or two. It's probably just me but sometimes it's enjoyable watching some of the "good guys" bust up some of the "bad guys". It rates right up there with watching a video of an Apache helicopter take out a group of insurgents in the middle of the night.

Geez, I thought the smilie might give away that I was being just a weeeeee bit lighthearted with that comment. You need to relax.

Don't flatter yourself, you turned nothing around. Product development and distribution is Alan's business, hence so should adequate testing. It is his job, I have mine. What I said was an excellent beginning off the top of my head. Would be much more exhaustive if it was my job, but it is his though he doesn't quite seem to understand that.

Thanks, I tried, as did my wife as a mother. We are old-fashioned, she stayed home and raised the kids while I worked and paid the bills. We even all have the same last name, and knew the names of our kids' teachers and friends....:)

Went to visit one last week in Chicago before her new med school year started this week. Moved another into her sorority house yesterday, and will move the youngest into his dorm on Sunday. Then my peace and quiet will begin.....:)

I will tell Rick. Don't talk with him much. He is in the EOD, not my cup of tea but he seems to enjoy it.

See how well we know one another, I am relaxed. I figured you were kidding and I was being a smart .... I rarely watch baseball and will probably never step foot in a major league ball park. But that's a whole different story.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the whole testing thing. IMO, if you're going to test something you do it controling every possible variable. Otherwise you're just doing a comparison or an evaluation.

Surprising you have never been to an MLB park, or is it just that you don't go anymore? I don't get to many anymore, but did just watch a Cubs' game in Wrigley when we went to see our daughter. That was an interesting time!

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