Hmmm.I'm an atheist-and a hetrosexual.Thing is-he was in a high school-and supposed to be talking to students about why it's wrong to bully-NOT to push his own personal agenda about the bible.And his sex orientation should have NEVER been mentioned.I would have walked out too.

Very good commentary. I guess I will have to say something after all. I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.) No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin. So is adultery. So is lust. So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags. He just doesn't love what they do. Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either. All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.

Indy, that was about as truly Christian a comment as probably could have been made. Then again, I know you to be a genuinely kind and considerate gentleman, so I'm not surprised. Based on your first post that you should probably stay out of it suggests to me you had something more pointed to say from a reactive posture, but I don't doubt that this post reveals your true colors.

I accept that the majority of Christian churches do not preach hatred toward gays/homosexuals/whatever term you want to use. However, there is a special place in the hearts of many Christians for that particular "sin." In other words, a Christian family is far more likely to ostracize, in some cases disown, a gay son than a son who cheats on his wife, even though I am willing to accept that may not be so in your case.

In any case, I am one who, and you know this well Indy, likes to point out hypocrisy in all people. I do this because I detest hyposcrisy from ANYONE, including Dan Savage. That having been said, he was inappropriate. As RC said, his sexual orientation had no place in a general discussion on bullying. At best, sexual orientation should have been mentioned only as one of a myriad of things kids get bullied over, like race, being a nerd, etc. His outburst had no place in that setting.

Now, from that viewpoint, which I consider to be a fairly measured and fair one, would you believe a presentation espousing Christian beliefs be acceptable in the same setting? I suspect you would believe it perfectly acceptable. This is where the hypocrisy enters in. It would seem that the biggest issue was not the mention of sexual orientation as a reason that kids get bullied, but that he referenced the Bible and Christianity in a negative way. I agree that it was inappropriate. However, the same people who would condemn him for it would have no problem with a Christian presentation or prayer in the same setting. Well, I'm sorry, but if Biblical reference is okay in that setting, then it is okay for everybody, including Dan Savage, and if people want to walk out on it, or the Christian sermon for that matter, then that's up to them. Or, as I believe, neither scenario belongs in that setting.

All of that aside, it seems to me, as a former Christian, that walking out was the LEAST Christian thing to do. From my perception the MOST Christian thing would have been not only to stay, but to approach the man afterwards if given the chance, shake his hand, and tell him that God loves him. You're a man who is into Christians "getting it right," Indy. Wouldn't you agree?

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Hmmm.I'm an atheist-and a hetrosexual.Thing is-he was in a high school-and supposed to be talking to students about why it's wrong to bully-NOT to push his own personal agenda about the bible.And his sex orientation should have NEVER been mentioned.I would have walked out too.

That's probably the best point of all. It's high school students, so keep it appropriate for the venue. It's about bullying, so talk about bullying. And keep it inclusive, which is in keeping with the anti-bullying message. Don't alienate part of the audience in a speech about tolerance.

Besides, I'm assuming he thinks it's important for bullies or potential bullies to take his message to heart. If he wants to put religious people under that blanket heading, would it not make sense to make the message easier for them to accept, rather than telling them something harsh and unnecessary that makes them want to leave?

Very good question, Flick. I'll answer it briefly, because it's late and my brain is tapioca. Walking out was a way to show offense, but it was not the perfect Christian response.Would I have a problem with a presentation that presented a Christian perspective on bullying or homosexuality?I guess that would depend on whether or not this was a public school gathering. If so, an overtly Christian message would be illegal. In a privately funded setting, I would have no problem with it. I think the key is for Christians to remember the verse that says "Let all you do be done in love."BTW, thanks for the kind words. I am far from perfect, but I do try to practice what I preach.

Now, from that viewpoint, which I consider to be a fairly measured and fair one, would you believe a presentation espousing Christian beliefs be acceptable in the same setting? I suspect you would believe it perfectly acceptable. This is where the hypocrisy enters in. It would seem that the biggest issue was not the mention of sexual orientation as a reason that kids get bullied, but that he referenced the Bible and Christianity in a negative way. I agree that it was inappropriate. However, the same people who would condemn him for it would have no problem with a Christian presentation or prayer in the same setting. Well, I'm sorry, but if Biblical reference is okay in that setting, then it is okay for everybody, including Dan Savage, and if people want to walk out on it, or the Christian sermon for that matter, then that's up to them. Or, as I believe, neither scenario belongs in that setting.

If somebody wants to have a Christian prayer group, I have no problem with that, but they shouldn't call it a Study Hall and if you want to do a lecture about why Christians are horrible people, you shouldn't call it an Anti-Bullying Speach.

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As a celibate bisexual male and someone who has beliefs in a life better than this one when I pass on, I would like to say that if the God I believe in hates gay and lesbian people, why are so many people who fall into those categories committed Christians? I just have to look to a family member of mine and her life partner for the answers there: they are elders in their church, which accepts them as I do, without question.

The British actor John Barrowman (he of that immortal line in Shark Attack 3) is quoted as saying: "Be a buddy, not a bully." I am the former.

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Savage took the militant route. Probably not the best venue for it, but there isn't really a good socially acceptable venue for the militant.

Let's not look for easy answers.

That there was an attack on Christianity isn't in doubt. But the fact remains that in many of the types of Christianity, of which their are multitudes, homosexuality is a direct sin. In this case, Christianity and homosexuality are diametric opposites. It's hard to find common ground with people who view your entire way of life as an abomination.

Outside of the high-minded ideals, we still live in a society where people are beaten to death solely for the reason that they are gay. I think we can all agree that that is not the Christian thing to do.

Granted, it's not fair to lay all the blame on Christianity. Islam, for example, also has strict precepts against homosexuality.

I know so many gay people, and I find absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. They live in this society, our society, where they are castigated at every turn by people who believe what they are doing is wrong. It doesn't always end in violence, but the stigma is always there.

indianasmith's statement "God loves Fags. He just doesn't love what they do." is so incredibly hurtful. The more so because it is well-intentioned.

In this case I think that belief is wrong. In another 20 years, we may not even hear about it anymore. But at present...

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Every dead body that is not exterminated becomes one of them. It gets up and kills. The people it kills, get up and kill.

The British actor John Barrowman (he of that immortal line in Shark Attack 3) is quoted as saying: "Be a buddy, not a bully." I am the former.

Got to hand it to him. He managed to be successful as an openly non-hetero action hero. Captain Jack Harkness is obviously a charismatic and likable character, but I've wondered if people were more accepting of his sexuality because it went so far beyond male, female or even human as to seem ironically macho. The guy f**ked anything that was sentient and consenting.

Very good commentary. I guess I will have to say something after all. I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.) No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin. So is adultery. So is lust. So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags. He just doesn't love what they do. Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either. All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.

Thank you, Indy.

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If it's true what they say, that GOD created us in His image, then why should we not love creating, and why should we not continue to do so, as carefully and ethically as we can, on whatever scale we're capable of?

The choice is simple; refuse to create, and refuse to grow, or build, with care and love.

Savage took the militant route. Probably not the best venue for it, but there isn't really a good socially acceptable venue for the militant.

Let's not look for easy answers.

That there was an attack on Christianity isn't in doubt. But the fact remains that in many of the types of Christianity, of which their are multitudes, homosexuality is a direct sin. In this case, Christianity and homosexuality are diametric opposites. It's hard to find common ground with people who view your entire way of life as an abomination.

Outside of the high-minded ideals, we still live in a society where people are beaten to death solely for the reason that they are gay. I think we can all agree that that is not the Christian thing to do.

Granted, it's not fair to lay all the blame on Christianity. Islam, for example, also has strict precepts against homosexuality.

I know so many gay people, and I find absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. They live in this society, our society, where they are castigated at every turn by people who believe what they are doing is wrong. It doesn't always end in violence, but the stigma is always there.

indianasmith's statement "God loves Fags. He just doesn't love what they do." is so incredibly hurtful. The more so because it is well-intentioned.

In this case I think that belief is wrong. In another 20 years, we may not even hear about it anymore. But at present...

I do not understand why you find Indy's statement "hurtful" . As he so ably pointed out, God hates ALL sin, yet He loves His supreme creation, us; otherwise, He would've just flushed us as a bad job. Instead, He gave us salvation through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

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If it's true what they say, that GOD created us in His image, then why should we not love creating, and why should we not continue to do so, as carefully and ethically as we can, on whatever scale we're capable of?

The choice is simple; refuse to create, and refuse to grow, or build, with care and love.

So in order to avoid hurting the feelings of homosexuals, you would require believers to renounce the clear teaching of Scripture?

I guess that's "tolerance." We have to give up a teaching of our faith so as not to offend others.

Anything else you want us to give up?

I didn't ask that of you, nor did I phrase my post as an attack on any side. I was simply stating the situation as it exist today. Christianity and homosexuality are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but if it is going to be set up that way, then conflict is unavoidable.

So speaking of tolerance, flip the situation around. Why should you expect tolerance from people you are intolerant of? This goes for everybody.

I don't condone or condemn Savage's actions. He took the militant route, and the consequences of that are what you see before you.

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Every dead body that is not exterminated becomes one of them. It gets up and kills. The people it kills, get up and kill.

That's a fair question.I will say this - I firmly believe that many homosexuals are "saved" and will go to heaven. Because God forgives sin.However, I believe that, scripturally, it is impossible to be an obedient Christian and a practicing homosexual at the same time. By the same token, you cannot be an obedient Christian and a practicing liar, adulterer, thief, or slut.

Which means, basically, that the world is full of disobedient Christians. Frankly, I don't know why God puts up with us.

To the gay community, I say: "Unless you wish to become a Christian, I would never ask you to change your sexual behavior. By the same token, unless I wish to become gay, don't ask me to delete passages of Scripture, or refuse to believe them."

Very good commentary. I guess I will have to say something after all. I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.) No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin. So is adultery. So is lust. So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags. He just doesn't love what they do. Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either. All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.

I guess that one statement is intended to be a reference to the frequent posters held up members of the Westboro Baptist church. Use of the word "fag" is no more acceptable than the words "n****r," "b***h," "kike," etc. It is worth noting, just for example, that the words "fag" and "kike" have not been censored by this board as my other two examples. We all have a long way to go.

It was a reference - and rebuttal - of Westboro's ugliness.For what it's worth, my gay friends have used the term to refer to themselves.I was not trying to be perjorative, but to express my distaste for the WBC's apparent motto.