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I don't think the "how's" matters to people who operate on "should's."

It's not about what makes sense logically or what is implementable, it's about what someone believes is "right and decent."

"Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

“Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

Are they going to start blocking certain internet sites like China does? That seems to be the only way they'll be able to outlaw "all pornography".

"We grow up thinking that﻿ beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are﻿ easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of﻿ a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

“Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

Lots of crap going on. Some guy running up north had as part of his platform wanting to prevent transpeople from officially changing their gender regardless of what their bodies look like or function as, and refuse to let them use the bathrooms. What, now we're going to card EVERYONE going into restrooms? Or are we just going to profile people by appearance, so the only the visually incongruent people are harrassed?

And for what reason? Why not just keep your nose out of business that has nothing to do with you and isn't any of your business?

It gets old.

OK, while I dont think its a good idea that bad laws make it on to the books at this stage I think I can understand why they are popular, there is culture war, you could, and I have, ask for what reason are people insisting that we nix marriage or heterosexuality as a norm, why not just keep your nose out of business that has nothing to do with you and isnt any of your business?

I've no problem with people who are trans-sexuals changing gender on their papers but I'd actually suggest that whatever there choosen gender they also have transgendered or transexual recorded on it too because its the clearest statement of fact possible.

To be honest there's a point reached, a point at which you no longer care about the alienation, estrangement or recognition of others, particularly minorities, no matter how generous, socially conscious or considerate you are, that you begin to think that what you are being required to endorse no longer has any relation what so ever to your own experience, your own identity, your own family or community background, history etc.

A tipping point is reached and the troubling thing is that when this happens, frequently there's not a centre ground decrying a kind of simple absurdity about this kind of modern day flagellant's self-reproach because that's been rebranded as bigotry. At that point the "get hung for a sheep as a lamb" philosophy applies and people are prepared to support silly stuff because they are just so pissed off angry.

So you might not agree with it but its no so strange and odd as to be totally ridiculous and be entirely inexplicable.

All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

I say we reapply all of the Mexican American border fences to Texas so the dumbness doesn't slosh out anymore. No offense to intelligent Texans... but you're in the quarantine zone and there might be no hope for you.

I've no problem with people who are trans-sexuals changing gender on their papers but I'd actually suggest that whatever there choosen gender they also have transgendered or transexual recorded on it too because its the clearest statement of fact possible.

And what need is there to have the store clerk looking at your driver's license to now know what is under your clothes when you pay for a purchase?

Or the small-town cop who pulls you over on a traffic violation?

Or the foreign airport you fly into, where you might now be under threat of being imprisoned or punished or abused because of that status?

Did you think it through, or is this another one of your values-driven conclusions?

What sort of information is actually another person's business? Is it really every Tom, Dick, and Harry's business what gender I was born as, especially when there's so much outright stigma attached to it by some people in this world, enough that you'd think it was a wise idea to stamp it on all my personal ID?

If you're that worried about people's gender, typically the US states that allow you to change your birth certificate lock your old one so that no one can see it... but yes, they do keep a trail and the proper authorities still has a record. It's just that no private dick can look you up and muck with your personal business. So there you go... yes, there is a record somewhere.

My point is not what you think policy should be, but that some right-wing schmuck is preying off fears using this as his only platform, running for the stat'es attorney general office... and not immediately getting laughed off stage. The wolves smell blood.

Our country is getting more polarized, and I'm not sure what will happen next. It's going to get really crazy once the Prop 8 ruling gets dumped in front of SCOTUS.

To be honest there's a point reached, a point at which you no longer care about the alienation, estrangement or recognition of others, particularly minorities, no matter how generous, socially conscious or considerate you are, that you begin to think that what you are being required to endorse no longer has any relation what so ever to your own experience, your own identity, your own family or community background, history etc.

A tipping point is reached and the troubling thing is that when this happens, frequently there's not a centre ground decrying a kind of simple absurdity about this kind of modern day flagellant's self-reproach because that's been rebranded as bigotry. At that point the "get hung for a sheep as a lamb" philosophy applies and people are prepared to support silly stuff because they are just so pissed off angry.

So you might not agree with it but its no so strange and odd as to be totally ridiculous and be entirely inexplicable.

I've actually been very supportive of conservative religious people in my life and have been the first to defend them when hardcore liberals leap down their throat, so you don't need to explain it to me time and again... thanks.

But here's something that I'm not sure you've realized yet:
Just because someone thinks they're not a bigot doesn't mean they're not.

"Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

“Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

And what need is there to have the store clerk looking at your driver's license to now know what is under your clothes when you pay for a purchase?

Or the small-town cop who pulls you over on a traffic violation?

Or the foreign airport you fly into, where you might now be under threat of being imprisoned or punished or abused because of that status?

Did you think it through, or is this another one of your values-driven conclusions?

What sort of information is actually another person's business? Is it really every Tom, Dick, and Harry's business what gender I was born as, especially when there's so much outright stigma attached to it by some people in this world, enough that you'd think it was a wise idea to stamp it on all my personal ID?

If you're that worried about people's gender, typically the US states that allow you to change your birth certificate lock your old one so that no one can see it... but yes, they do keep a trail and the proper authorities still has a record. It's just that no private dick can look you up and muck with your personal business. So there you go... yes, there is a record somewhere.

My point is not what you think policy should be, but that some right-wing schmuck is preying off fears using this as his only platform, running for the stat'es attorney general office... and not immediately getting laughed off stage. The wolves smell blood.

Our country is getting more polarized, and I'm not sure what will happen next. It's going to get really crazy once the Prop 8 ruling gets dumped in front of SCOTUS.

I've actually been very supportive of conservative religious people in my life and have been the first to defend them when hardcore liberals leap down their throat, so you don't need to explain it to me time and again... thanks.

But here's something that I'm not sure you've realized yet:
Just because someone thinks they're not a bigot doesn't mean they're not.

Jennifer you get really angry when this topic comes up and pretty much just attack me an in thinly veiled ways dismiss me as a bigot. I really dont appreciate it.

Some times there arent, as you so eloquently and respectfully put it (nice to see you being the change you want to see in the world there) some "right wing schmuck" preying on peoples fears, that's the equivalent of suggesting that the agitation for desegregation in the US, womens sufferage or pensions where all the work of "evil, godless commies" in their day. Sometimes people just decide they've had enough of a particular agenda.

I'm unsure what you mean about values driven conclusions, I am sure that this isnt a positive at least, my conclusions about being transgendered or transexual are a consequence of my consideration that people are male, female or transgendered, simple as.

Its a little like the marriage deal. Its a relationship between a man and woman. Not a man and a man or a woman and a woman or a man and his dog or a woman and her horse.

Now I would suggest that perhaps if someone is transexual and they have a successful sex change then they wouldnt necessarily wish to live a "secret life of Jane/Dave" but who knows, I do believe people have a right to privacy but I equally think that people can and should expect that identity isnt a totally free deal, if you adopt a particular identity or possess it by accident of birth there are expectations you should have.

I'd go further and suggest that there are things you cant expect too, no one has a right to expect the state to intervene to ensure that they feel respected by strangers for instance. If we're going to discuss bad laws we could start there.

All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture