On 17/11/2013 Dave J wrote:>>How has Claw got to a point where he's comfortable in his own skin after having placed some shocking poor bolts over the years (the only other bolt Ive removed on lead with my bare fingers was one of his). Are there counseling sessions you can go to for this?

Ha- we used best techniques of the time, I soon found that what (sort-of) worked in the Blueys didn't work on hard rock, so I'm happy that bolts get upgraded when the class of bolt has too many question marks about it. I've probably replaced over a thousand of my carrots.

(Yes some carrots are bomber, but these aren't the ones to worry about.)

On 17/11/2013 Dave J wrote:>What did Malcolm actually have say about the Muline Carrot incident?

I have yet to receive a reply (it was a lengthy email with photos).

>I guess there's 2 factors here in his hesitance. >1.Not wanting to see a mess made of his routes. I think the Contra Arms>Pump rebolt debacle was a PR blunder by Nathan at a point where Malcolm>was almost ready to see other people rebolt his routes (are the old bolts>still in there next to the new ones or have they been cleaned up?).

Sadly, as of two weeks ago there is a still a double bolt belay every 2m up the cliff. What surprises me about this is that Malcolm hasn't removed one or the other. It must be 10 years since they got put in?

>Whatever happens those bolts on Taipan it needs to not be a mess. What>eventually replaces the old bolts should go in the old hole and whatever>it is should be something that can ultimately be easily be removed and>replaced without any more holes needing to be drilled. I'm less bothered>about the absolute safety of the route than I am about the gradually deterioration>of the rock through repeated rebolting. Ive always like expansion bolts>over rings for that reason (interesting to hear about your Anaconda experience>though).

I totally agree with respecting the aesthetics of the rock. The lovely Grampians smoothness scars easily. The less hacking and re-drilling the better. One of the major problems with many of these classic routes is that rebolting has been put off and put off, and now the bolts are in the state that removal will not be easy or even possible. Certainly most of the expansions I replaced on Spurt about 10 years ago were very hard to remove and many of them were just patched over. One of the naughty things I did was to actually drill a parallel hole right next to the rusty remains, scrape the mush out into the bigger hole, then place a glue-in so it filled up both holes. That generally fixed the visual pollution but did leave a reasonably big patch of glue on the surface.

On 18/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
One of the naughty things>I did was to actually drill a parallel hole right next to the rusty remains,>scrape the mush out into the bigger hole, then place a glue-in so it filled>up both holes. That generally fixed the visual pollution but did leave>a reasonably big patch of glue on the surface.

On 18/11/2013 maxdacat wrote:>On 17/11/2013 rowan wrote:>>>I agree with One Day Hero in that it would be a real shame if it was>botched.>>>>I share ODH's fear of a shit job. >>>>Given what we know now about how to bolt and how not to bolt:>>a) isn't this fear redundant, and;>>b) isn't the whole point about replacing stuff that is crap to begin with??

I suppose the fear is that quite often people with lots of enthusiam aren't particularly experienced. Whilst the collective "we" (and I certainly do NOT include myself in that) might know a lot about bolting, the person with the drill in hand might not.

On 18/11/2013 pecheur wrote:>I suppose the fear is that quite often people with lots of enthusiam aren't>particularly experienced. Whilst the collective "we" (and I certainly>do NOT include myself in that) might know a lot about bolting, the person>with the drill in hand might not.

So right now ODH.... 1) has his ropes & gear on Serpentine, 2) is a self-described rebolting professional 3) is currently living near Malcolm 4) is a patient slow-moving moderate (presuming the opposite of impatient hyperactive zealot).

Ill happily replace shit bolts without permission after someone showed zero respect to the rock in the first place by placing shitty, sub standard mild steel dynabolts or carrots. But please please dont fuch up a classic with glue smears and worms everywhere!

As for replacing u's? Easier and more consistent than hangers. No heat required, bolt cutters to snip the apex, now a wrench can twist the two J legs and vice grips wiggle em out. Drill out the two holes and re-use both. This would be after about 50 years with current good glues i reckon, not chemset 101!!

Replacments can be difficult tasks, particularly for degraded hardware, as Neil has pointed out, though given that there is active corrosion, replacment prior to the point where the capacity is starting to be compromised is preferrable.

A number of points come to mind.

1. Fixed protection is placed particularly for the safety of the first ascensionist with expectations as to the immediate performance capacity of the fixed equipment sometimes without thought to the long term replacement.
2. With the replacement of fixed hardware most people do not consider the life-cyle (ie how long the fixed gear is expected to last - 10, 20, 50 years).
3. There is no one ideal solution to all replacment scenarios. Variables such as the rock hardness, rock type, location of the fixed gear (slab/wall/roof), seepage, popularity of the route, forces likely to be applied to the equipment (ie angle of falls, cyclic loading during cleaning/top roping etc) have an impact on selection of appropriate fixed gear and there may be different assessments by different people.
4. The skills of installers are quite variable.
5. No-one is perfect all of the time regardless of how hard they try regarding the installation of all fixed hadware and the variability of bash in carrot installation only adds to the problem.
6. The first ascensionist should be consulted as a courtesy and given the opportunity to address the issues, yet should they have absolute veto? If they do have absolute veto will they then assume full responsibility for issues that arise? Will they adequately address these issues?
7. In an ideal world replacments would be in the same hole. Sometimes this is not possible or desireable. Re-use of the hole from carrots is possible, though they often need drilling out to a slightly larger size. The same is true for dynabolts in softer rock where some compression inside the hole may have occured. As noted above there is no one ideal solution.
8. When you note corrosion on fixed gear this means that the equipment is degrading and at some point will (or may have) become useless - regardless of how much you might want to believe otherwise.
9. Stainless steel has a lower coefficient of friction than mild and zinc treated steel. Important in relation to bash in carrots, particularly given that 304 stainless steel is also more malleable.

On 18/11/2013 mikllaw wrote:>(What route did you remove a bolt with your admitedly strong fingers?>purple Denotes Bruising?)
Yes, I believe it was....in King Rat gully.And my fingers weren't that strong. I was pretty flat out just getting to the bolt and was pretty disappointed when I spied the bit of rotting tat that was hammered in with the carrot to keep it in there. To its credit I had to pinch it between 2 of my fingers and wiggle it a bit to get it out (unlike the snake flake bolt which put up a lot less of a fight) before leaping down into the arms of my belayer (A nice hungarian girl called Sonja. so it wasn't a total disaster).

On 18/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Sadly, as of two weeks ago there is a still a double bolt belay every>2m up the cliff. What surprises me about this is that Malcolm hasn't removed>one or the other. It must be 10 years since they got put in?

Same dilemma, remove the offending newer bolts which are undoubtedly better bolts in better positions OR remove the originals and acknowledge that they the lesser bolts.

I suspect the only way to communicate with Malcolm is in person or if he answers his phone. He's really not very good at responding to emails or phone messages.

Phil sells those fancy extra long double thingy expansion bolts, they should be able to go in the original holes and be replaceable in umpteen years (probably way longer than the carrots have lasted) - go and grab some of them and get to work Damo!