As for Cairne: He shouldn't have wanted a duel in the first place. He could have just... Oh, I don't know... Listen carefully to the council of a wise and well-seasoned leader with loads of experience. .

Cainre wsnt really inclined to listen to anything Garrosh was saying, he was a pissed off bull

And he really was not acting like a "wise and well-seasoned leader"

Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-11-09 at 05:00 AM.

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Did you play the original warcraft RTS games? The Horde has only very, very recently become about "honor," it's a product of WoW lore trying to make two "good guys" who are still enemies. The Horde had King Llane brutally betrayed and assassinated, enslaved several races, raped and pillaged their way across several worlds, overall did anything in their power to win a war, regardless of cost. You can go look up all the twisted stuff the old warlocks like Ner'zhul and Gul'dan did with complete approval of the Warchief.

People seem to have no knowledge of the real Horde, or they just forgot. Victory or death means one thing, and one thing only. The Horde is about nothing more than conquest. No one in the true Horde cares about honor, helping people, or any of that other Alliance-themed garbage. The very recent picture of the Horde we have received via WoW and the end of Warcraft III is a result of Thrall, one warchief in the line of many. Thrall's new age and extremely weak Horde is just another page in the book of Orc history.

Garrosh seemed to be Blizzard's attempt to show us what the Horde is all about. As we can see in many Cataclysm quests, he was actually a pretty solid Warchief for some time. It seems that the player base doesn't want the Horde to be Horde anymore, not since they watered it down and made it so Alliance, so they gave up and turned him into a raid boss - their cop out for any failed lore projects.

Did you play the original warcraft RTS games? The Horde has only very, very recently become about "honor," it's a product of WoW lore trying to make two "good guys" who are still enemies. The Horde had King Llane brutally betrayed and assassinated, enslaved several races, raped and pillaged their way across several worlds, overall did anything in their power to win a war, regardless of cost. You can go look up all the twisted stuff the old warlocks like Ner'zhul and Gul'dan did with complete approval of the Warchief.

People seem to have no knowledge of the real Horde, or they just forgot. Victory or death means one thing, and one thing only. The Horde is about nothing more than conquest. No one in the true Horde cares about honor, helping people, or any of that other Alliance-themed garbage. The very recent picture of the Horde we have received via WoW and the end of Warcraft III is a result of Thrall, one warchief in the line of many. Thrall's new age and extremely weak Horde is just another page in the book of Orc history.

You're confusing the New Horde with the Old Horde. The Old Horde was a fel-driven machine of death, destruction and conquest. The New Horde is a minority faction of people trying to get by in the face of overwhelming odds.
Edit: And then Garrosh came around and ruined it for everyone.

Pretty sure I did that. While Garrosh was taking a swim after ordering away his close air support in an area under siege by a rogue dragonflight to take potshots at Alliance ships that were there to fight the same enemy.

Originally Posted by keksplace

Garrosh personally issued the command to stampede the Night Elves in Ashenvale and came there on the field aswell.

Because that was a great idea. However conflict in Ashenvale was raging even back when Thrall was Warchief so I don't even see how he can take credit for that. Garrosh's big plan was a push up through Ashenvale to Darkshore, together with a flanking attack from the Shatterspear Trolls (which the Night Elves wiped out). That seems to have run aground.

You're confusing the New Horde with the Old Horde. The Old Horde was a fel-driven machine of death, destruction and conquest. The New Horde is a minority faction of people trying to get by in the face of overwhelming odds.
Edit: And then Garrosh came around and ruined it for everyone.

People can use demon blood as an excuse all they want, but let's not forget that the old Horde willingly drank it, repeatedly. Grom is still considered a great orc by most people, even people who hate Garrosh, and he drank Mannoroth's blood AGAIN, fully knowing what would happen, in order to beat Cenarius. Thrall probably would've ran off or tried to make peace, Grom did what he had to do to win. That is Horde way.

Thrall is easily the worst thing to happen to the Horde, Doomhammer would be disgusted if he were around to see what it has become.

Did you play the original warcraft RTS games? The Horde has only very, very recently become about "honor," it's a product of WoW lore trying to make two "good guys" who are still enemies. The Horde had King Llane brutally betrayed and assassinated, enslaved several races, raped and pillaged their way across several worlds, overall did anything in their power to win a war, regardless of cost. You can go look up all the twisted stuff the old warlocks like Ner'zhul and Gul'dan did with complete approval of the Warchief.

People seem to have no knowledge of the real Horde, or they just forgot. Victory or death means one thing, and one thing only. The Horde is about nothing more than conquest. No one in the true Horde cares about honor, helping people, or any of that other Alliance-themed garbage. The very recent picture of the Horde we have received via WoW and the end of Warcraft III is a result of Thrall, one warchief in the line of many. Thrall's new age and extremely weak Horde is just another page in the book of Orc history.

Garrosh seemed to be Blizzard's attempt to show us what the Horde is all about. As we can see in many Cataclysm quests, he was actually a pretty solid Warchief for some time. It seems that the player base doesn't want the Horde to be Horde anymore, not since they watered it down and made it so Alliance, so they gave up and turned him into a raid boss - their cop out for any failed lore projects.

What's left of that Horde is on Draenor. Remember when we went to Outland and killed them all? Yeah.

Pawns of Illidan, had nothing to do with racial cleansing and everything to do with beating one primary enemy.

Interestingly enough, Orc history is full of inter-clan warfare. The fact that Orcs are all one clan now, apparently, is also a very new innovation. The Dragonmaw refusing to join the Horde at first should not have surprised anyone.

People can use demon blood as an excuse all they want, but let's not forget that the old Horde willingly drank it, repeatedly. Grom is still considered a great orc by most people, even people who hate Garrosh, and he drank Mannoroth's blood AGAIN, fully knowing what would happen, in order to beat Cenarius. Thrall probably would've ran off or tried to make peace, Grom did what he had to do to win. That is Horde way.

Thrall is easily the worst thing to happen to the Horde, Doomhammer would be disgusted if he were around to see what it has become.

Thrall had a man-crush on Grom. Grom was kind of an idiot, all he did in Warcraft III was start a war with the Night Elves nobody needed, drink demon blood invalidating everything Thrall stood for for no good reason, killed a forest demigod who could've been an enormous help against the Legion and then marginally redeemed himself at the end of the Orc campaign by killing one Pit Lord and dying.

Yes; what a great idea! Give the Alliance even more reasons to hate us! I can see we're going to get along splendidly! You might say that that is a good thing, but I really don't see how... Trade is a pretty big thing, and I don't know if you've realized, but... The Horde is pretty much starved of resources.

And just how likely were the Night Elves gonna uplift the ban on trade with the Horde?

By the time they had their meeting with Hamuel, they didnt think Garrosh was behind it, they knew he was behind it.
And just how friendly do you think they would be when those druids are murdered, again, by "Horde" troops

o, and its a lot more beneficial to actually own said resources than to have to pay for them

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

I would actually love Garrosh as a leader if he wasn't such a hotheaded dumbass.

His tenacity is inspiring, his ferocity unmatched, and he is a warrior true and true...BUT, he let's his temper control his actions and that makes a poor leader. Cairne tried to talk with him, tried to help him see reason in his actions...his response? "YOU SAY MEAN THINGS!!! ME SMASH YOU!!!!" Magatha may have been the one ultimately responsible for Cairne's death, but I will not diminish Garrosh's role as the one who held the axe.

And just how likely were the Night Elves gonna uplift the ban on trade with the Horde?

By the time they had their meeting with Hamuel, they didnt think Garrosh was behind it, they knew he was behind it.
And just how friendly do you think they would be when those druids are murdered, again, by "Horde" troops

o, and its a lot more beneficial to actually own said resources than to have to pay for them

Here's the thing, though:
They could have simple... Not done that. You know. As in: Not do that.
But they did to that.

Cairne tried to talk with him, tried to help him see reason in his actions...his response? "YOU SAY MEAN THINGS!!! ME SMASH YOU!!!!.

Thats not really how it went down.

Cairne didnt go to Org to talk Garrosh out of anything, he went to punish him.
He was pissed the fuck off that his pet-project of re-establishing trade routes was ruined and his good friend was bleeding to death somwhere, and he knew exactly who to vent his anger on

---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 05:27 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Stir

They could have simple... Not done that. You know. As in: Not do that.
But they did to that.

care to explain a little more? lol

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

And just how likely were the Night Elves gonna uplift the ban on trade with the Horde?

By the time they had their meeting with Hamuel, they didnt think Garrosh was behind it, they knew he was behind it.
And just how friendly do you think they would be when those druids are murdered, again, by "Horde" troops

o, and its a lot more beneficial to actually own said resources than to have to pay for them

Hitler ruled with the same mindset. "Destroy every enemy you see and only care about my goals." Do you like him as well?