To any sane, thinking, non-zombie idiot out there, notice how the socialists attempt to change the terms of the discussion rather than the discussion itself?

UK Lion said that the US democrats agree with the socialist policies of Europe. Then he said that Euope moved to the right. Why? Because they learned that leftist policies don't work. Wake up people! I'm losing patience with idiots.

IE: Im largely going to ignore what you attempted to put in my mouth about GM/Socialism. I was writing in response to previous posts on this board with regards to that issue and not saying that regulation = socialism. I do believe that heavy regulation artificially picks and chooses certain technologies/businesses/companies but did not call that socialism although it must be somewhere on the spectrum closer to socialism than capitalism. Disagreeing with that would be shall we say "absurd?"

Quote:

ACA is not the first step to a single-payer system, and it is uncertain whether it will reduce or raise costs. One thing we know is, without it healthcare costs would continue to rise dramatically like they have been... so it is not legitimate to say it is ACA that is the cause if healthcare costs go up another 25-30-whatever % ... they were certainly going to go up anyway! ACA is definitely going to drive some consolidation in the business (hospitals, insurance companies) in attempt to get more cost efficiency. It is also going to drive a LOT more quality medical management, as hospitals, physician networks and insurance companies are forced to work together to drive expenses out of insuring higher risk members by moving people into those proactive medical management practices.

No ACA is not the first step to a single payer system - Medicaid and Medicare were. This is just the next step. "Romneycare" in Massachusstets has driven cost for health care in that state higher than healthcare costs in the rest of the US over the same time frame. It is not just that healthcare costs themselves have gone up - they have gone up more rapidly where we have government health care. Anyway, convenient lack of reading comprehension for you. The rest of your statement makes little sense. People with preexisting conditions are more than "higher risk" they are already sick and definitely will cost more than they will pay in no matter how much you cut costs. The only way to accomodate coverring those people is to have everyone else pay for them through higher deductibles, premiums, etc. Also where does Obamacare cut costs? Almost exclusively by reimbursing less, nowhere does it decrease the cost of providing the care. Health care costs have not risen because your physician has decided to charge you more, no, your physician is making less relative to physicians in the past. Costs have risen because the physician/hospital's cost to provide the care has increased dramatically.

Back to this issue of reimbursing less. The cuts in Medicare under Obamacare include big reimbursement cuts to providers but do not change what care is covered. That my friend is an access issue. If your medicare is paying less dont you think less doctors are going to accept Medicare? If it was bw seeing a patient with medicare or a private insurance, dont you think office managers would screen out the lower paying patients out of a busy physicians day? Well maybe you could solve that if there were more physicians, right? Only Obamacare gives you less incentive to become a physician and provides no mechanism to increase the number of physicians, there already is a projected physician shortage this makes it worse. Well, I guess you will have fun being taken care of by a midlevel practicitioner with less expertise who historically are not allowed to see patients without a physician present.

Quote:

I am SO glad that ACA is going to stay the law of the land... because the further we go, the more people are going to stop whining about it & appreciate the benefits to themselves and their families & friends. I believe access to healthcare is a fundamental right in an enlightened society. And I'm glad that the majority of voting Americans agree with me

I agree with you that access to healthcare is a right but healthcare itself is not a right. Physicians, nurses, etc do not have an obligation to care for you in every circumstance.

We ll see about how happy people are with ACA in the future, as I mentioned before existing forms of govt health care such as VAs and County hospitals provide far INFERIOR and less efficient care in comparison to private facilies. They are only cheaper to the consumer not to society. How this is a formula for an improvement in health care is not explained by logic. Your statement that this is magically solved by physicians, networks, hospitals finding better ways to manage is a huge leap because providers have already been forced to do so yet the results with that are generally considered as unacceptable. Now you have added the impossible task of taking care of people with existing conditions that also cannot pay. Again, provider management was never the problem but if thats the way the govt is going to play it the only option eventually will be further rationing of care.

Countries having certain things in national ownership does not equate to socialism. The US has space exploration, defence and other things in national ownership - this does not mean it is a socialist country. The UK has the majority of its healthcare services in national ownership - this does not mean it is a socialist country.

[heavy regulation] must be somewhere on the spectrum closer to socialism than capitalism. Disagreeing with that would be shall we say "absurd?"

There are good arguments that regulation at times is required for well functioning capitalism. Disagreeing with that is not absurd. Have a look at capitalismwithoutfailure.com (which is a very pro-free market site) for some excellent arguments as to why a financial sector that is not properly regulated could produce the debt bubble that resulted in the current global financial crisis.

November 12th, 2012, 9:39 am

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Obama vs. Romney

Sigh... someone acting like they understand ACA and yet saying that comments about medical management practices doesn't make sense. Are you an ER Doc?

I reject the idea that regulation is always bad, and that it "chooses" winning technologies. I recommend going to Shanghai and trying to breathe, and then get back to me on that. Sure, there is justification for evaluating and questioning all regulation, including being willing/able to change it if unexpected consquences surface. But to sit there and use terms like "impossible" to describe very well-thought-out and highly considerate (to the entire supply chain) regulation like ACA ... is what I would call the opposite of American can-do, innovation, leadership and "exceptionalism". ACA is an American call to the healthcare industry, challenging them to treat all Americans equally regardless of health, and to become more efficient and competitive. There won't be a shortage of physicians, networks, or hospitals as a result. But ones that sit there and say "impossible" might get their lunch eaten by other ones who rise to the challenge and become better and more efficient deliverers of service by devising better practices, using information better, and cutting their own costs instead of expecting to just pass it on down the chain.

I'm not going to argue against this stupid "socialism" strawman/bogeyman. It's a joke, and as far as I'm concerned was squashed by the election like a chirping bug.

I.E., I find it deplorable that you're resorting to libtard/socialist talking points to demonize me on this subject. Facts are facts and you can't spin your way out of them no matter how hard you try.

The facts are that over a hundred companies have announced layoffs, mostly due to the implementation of Obamacare. These include Boeing, Cat, US Cellular,Nextel, and many more.

One key point that you failed to mention is that Obamacare now classifies full time employment as 30 hours per week. Papa Johns is just one example, but Darden Inc., which operates Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn, and several other restaurant chains will also be cutting their employee hours under 30 per week to avoid the Obamacare mandate.

At the other end of the spectrum, I work for an automotive supplier and am forced to become a member of the UAW because of it. Instead of hiring more workers, they force many of us to work 12 hour days, 6-7 days per week. While I like getting 70 hour paychecks, I don't have much time to spend it. While our medical benefits are great, it's just another reason why they refuse to hire more workers to lessen our workload.

If anyone seriously believes that Obamacare is a job creater as Obama stated, I have a bridge to sell you. Obamacare will cost jobs and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant or blatantly lying.

If you seriously want to lower medical costs, you open insurance availability across state lines and limit malpractice lawsuits( i.e. tort reform).Obamacare does none of that. In fact, it encourages unneccessary procedures through executive fiat.

And contrary to what IE stated, the majority of Americans favor the repeal of Obamacare by a 10% margin. Lying may have worked for Goebels, but I won't let you get away with it. Every single poll shows that the American people want that monstrosity gone. Obamacare MUST go.

While most Americans are too stupid to live or vote, they do both to the detriment of our nation. The Takers now outnumber the Makers. We are done unless we give Obama everything he wants and thus, crashes the economy. The only way that responsible people will win elecions is if the free stuff promised by the Dems goes away. Wake up, America.

Every single poll shows that the American people want [Obamacare ] gone.

Every single poll apart from one last Tuesday ...

November 12th, 2012, 3:51 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Obama vs. Romney

UK Lion wrote:

slybri19 wrote:

Every single poll shows that the American people want [Obamacare ] gone.

Every single poll apart from one last Tuesday ...

UK, that election wasn't about Obamacare. Obama, the Democrats, and the Liberal Media did a great job obfuscating the issue. They spent literally zero time discussing Obamacare, because they knew that the issue was a loser for them. They successfully stemmed off attacks by the Right that talked of layoffs and lack of hiring (there have been over 10,000 layoffs announced in anticipation of Obamacare already), but those very REAL attacks were met with a one word answer "lies." However, they were in fact true, and now people are eating their words, and perhaps their vote.

I always found it ridiculous that this moron enacted a law that didn't take effect until AFTER the election (on purpose), and "we" morons fell for it. The American public really is dummied down, they refuse to look at facts and real information, and they fall for whatever the media tells them to believe - hence "sheeple"...

November 12th, 2012, 3:55 pm

regularjoe12

Def. Coordinator – Teryl Austin

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4211Location: Davison Mi

Re: GAME DAY THREAD: Obama vs. Romney

slybri19 wrote:

I.E., I find it deplorable that you're resorting to libtard/socialist talking points to demonize me on this subject. Facts are facts and you can't spin your way out of them no matter how hard you try.

The facts are that over a hundred companies have announced layoffs, mostly due to the implementation of Obamacare. These include Boeing, Cat, US Cellular,Nextel, and many more.

One key point that you failed to mention is that Obamacare now classifies full time employment as 30 hours per week. Papa Johns is just one example, but Darden Inc., which operates Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn, and several other restaurant chains will also be cutting their employee hours under 30 per week to avoid the Obamacare mandate.

At the other end of the spectrum, I work for an automotive supplier and am forced to become a member of the UAW because of it. Instead of hiring more workers, they force many of us to work 12 hour days, 6-7 days per week. While I like getting 70 hour paychecks, I don't have much time to spend it. While our medical benefits are great, it's just another reason why they refuse to hire more workers to lessen our workload.

If anyone seriously believes that Obamacare is a job creater as Obama stated, I have a bridge to sell you. Obamacare will cost jobs and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant or blatantly lying.

If you seriously want to lower medical costs, you open insurance availability across state lines and limit malpractice lawsuits( i.e. tort reform).Obamacare does none of that. In fact, it encourages unneccessary procedures through executive fiat.

And contrary to what IE stated, the majority of Americans favor the repeal of Obamacare by a 10% margin. Lying may have worked for Goebels, but I won't let you get away with it. Every single poll shows that the American people want that monstrosity gone. Obamacare MUST go.

Hasn't "full time" been set at 32 hours for more than a decade now? It has been for any company i have worked for. I see what you are saying about the layoffs, ( and from a coroporate perspective the layoffs make sense) but the hours you refer to have been long standing. I dont think that can be blaimed on the current douche baggery of an administration...