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phonewebcam writes with a report in The Register about the ongoing spat between Samsung and Apple. From the article: "Samsung could try to get the iPhone 5 delayed or banned in Europe, a source has told South Korea's Maeil Business Newspaper today. The Korean giant is considering a lawsuit against the next version of the Apple smartphone due in October, in the expectation that iPhone 5 will make use of some basic telecoms technology that Samsung has patented. ... It comes a day after The Korea Times quoted an anonymous Samsung exec saying that the company would attempt to do the same thing in Korea."

That might be why they are aiming at the upcoming iPhone, not the present one...

Apple, so rumor has, has been reducing the Samsung slice of the BOM substantially of late(A4, Samsung, A5, somebody else, I'm not sure what they are doing for flash memory...), out of some mixture of desire to get a better deal and reprisal against a competitor. Once the slice falls below a certain level, it stops making sense to tolerate Apple's legal shenanigans in order to move more components, and starts making sense to t

Samsung will still be making the A5. The rumors are that TSMC will make the A6. I can see why you would dump a supplier that steals your designs. I can't see why you would dump attack a massive customer of one of the conglomerates core businesses just to prop up the mobile division.

Apple has changed to many other suppliers for its components (the A5 chip comes to mind) so this argument is not valid anymore. Samsung stated that at first, they bent over and let Apple have their way in order to keep a 'healthy' business relation. But after the Galaxy line got blocked in the EU, generating a huge loss, Apple choosing other manufacturers over Samsung, and still acting like a small female dog over patents, Samsung has become quite angry and now Pandora's box is open it seems. I sincerely hope they destroy Apple or at least let them bleed with their childish tactics: crying that they are the underdog while suing all competition out of the market.

Or cutting off your nose to spite your face is fair play bitch. Samsung makes more money selling iPhones than Samsung phones

Citation? Samsung is making a huge profit [theaustralian.com.au] right now through their smartphone sales, whilst their profits from most other components is falling. In Q2 of this year, Samsung sold way more phones [arstechnica.com] than Apple. Phone sales, right now, are top dollar for Samsung.

And if Apple's sales of an iPhone5 gets blocked, what do think will happen to Samsung's sales? Do you think they might just happen to rise even further?

Funny to see what an absurd profit Apple makes on its customers, compared to the competition, and then have all the fanbois defend that as a unique selling point. The Stockholm syndrome comes to mind...

Or do you think that they should be able to, but you think that the actual amount of profit they should be able to earn should be decided by someone else, like you?

The Stockholm syndrome comes to mind...

What should we call the syndrome that makes whiny haters trot out boring, over-used, poorly-applied mems like that, phrased in a way to make it sound like they're really clever and just thought it up? Really? You were betting your see-how-cool-I-am comment on the hopes that people hadn't already seen that misplaced bit of snarkiness a thousand times already? Let me guess, you also use "M$" when referring to Microsoft, because that is just so damn inventive on your part, right?

Anyway, back to profit. Please mention the correct profit number that Apple should make so that you won't hate them. A precise number would be ideal, thanks.

Nah, I know exactly what he's saying - directly and indirectly. He comes right out and tells us that Apple's profits are absurd and that (by implication) hostage-like people who don't know their own minds on the subject are defending them. He dissaproves of Apple's earnings, and he's derisively complaining about the people who buy things from Apple. It's not exactly complicated.

And yet Apple's competitors are having a difficult time matching the price of the iPad, and the Macbook Air (with comparable quality).
Maybe they're just a much more efficient company? Maybe it's a better run business to generate higher profits than their competitors?
Nah, has to be 'fanbois' giving away their money...

On the other hand, have you looked at MacBook prices ever? A bare-bones 13in (i5, 4GB RAM, no discrete graphics) costs more than a loaded 17in laptop (i7, 8GB RAM, 540M, 1080p screen, Bluray drive, more hard-disk space) from other manufacturers. I've used MacBooks. Their build quality is good, but not that good.

It did strike me as a little odd that Apple's numbers for revenues were so much higher given the differentials in the classes of products the two makes, but apparently not odd enough for me to re-check that I read it correctly.

There are two ways sanity will get restored. One, someone in government wakes up one day and says "hey, this is a very stupid situation. I think we need to fix it so that this doesn't happen any longer!" The other is to allow and even promote stupidity to grow beyond absurdity at which point there will be no choice but t fix the problem.

I suspect we expect the second way to prevail in this case as any attempt to fix the problem now will result in massive resistance by players who

I can't speak for "people"; but my hope from such mutually destructive activity is that (at the cost of considerable short-term mayhem) it will make the present arrangement untenably expensive even for the incumbent patentholders. Essentially, the present patent system is hopelessly over-determined(in the sense that pretty much any action is covered by numerous broad, sometimes overlapping, patents held by multiple entities, and the cost of securing licenses for them all exceeds the value of almost any action); but survives because it is rather loosely and selectively enforced. Strengthening it will serve to bring its faults into sharper focus.

Historically, you had the patent trolls sucking blood on the sidelines, and the little guys getting squished; but a more or less cold-war environment between the major players. Some sabre rattling and money moving about; but nothing that really upset the status quo. However, if it gets to the point where entire flagship product launches can be, and sometimes are, scotched by patent complaints to any one of an alphabet soup of assorted regulatory bodies, I suspect that the pressure to change the situation will be considerably greater.

As long as the major players can use patents to their advantage, at the (comparatively minor) cost of paying off a troll now and again, the situation will not change. If the pain moves sufficiently far up the food chain that nobody can ship anything, I'm guessing that the congresscritters of the world will be prodded into action...

I'm afraid you misunderstand. Apple is stealing Samsung technology. I suppose you want real INNOVATORS like Samsung to just let thieves like Apple take their IP and blatantly use it in their own products. Don't you know, patents are supposed protect innovators!

I believe what tends to happen in cases like this, where there is such disdain for the patent mess and the general notion of competition by litigation, is people tend to dislike the perceived aggressor the most.

Apple is clearly the perceived aggressor, having started the litigation in this scenario. And Samsung is seen as defending itself. Had Samsung instigated this particular fight, they would be "rooted against" so to speak, excepting a certain anti-Applie contingent that will always hate and root aga

Steve Jobs was notorious for bullying his employees. I had always hoped that one day I would see the headline "Berated Employee Finally Loses It and Kicks Steve Jobs Right in the Fucking Pancreas." Sadly, no one ever had the guts (or maybe his fanatical employees considered anything short of prostrating themselves in front of their messiah to be blasphemy).

Hopefully all those manufacturers will be looking at the bullshit lawsuits Apple has been firing around to get Samsungs products blocked from various market and will be wondering if they're next. Maybe then they will all work together to try and get IP law brought up to date into a more sensible form that benefits all, as was originally intended, rather than a select few who game the system.

It's all about deterrence.
All the companies could sue each other until the end of time, but they aren't or weren't, because it hurts the business. Unless it was some blantant and stupid rip-off.
Apple said F IT and sued Samsung over rectangles and glass front and other obvious stuff, so Samsung goes nuclear, too.

If it was so obvious, then how come pre-iPhone every smartphone was either a Blackberry or a Blackberry wannabe? Post-iPhone practically every phone on the market looks like an iPhone, works like an iPhone, and RIM is a financial mess and also utilizing the 'copy-Apple' playbook.

I guess that's the problem with Apple's minimalist designs. It's always 'obvious' after they come out.

Really, this is Samsung's fault. All they had to do is use icons that differentiated the phone from the iPhone but instead they wa

The sad thing is that prior art is patented regularly. Just try to get a patent, no matter how obviously bad, dismissed. It only takes >$1 mil, and maybe a few years, during which you can't do business.

I don't think many of us would have supported this if it came out of nowhere. It didn't even come out of a response to Apple suing them. It came about because Samsung tried to trust the courts to issue the only ruling that made any sense at all... And instead they got their product banned from sale. What do you expect them to do, sit back and say, "man, this sucks"? They are only playing by the rules that a major first-world country defined, and even then only because they really have no other choice.

Samsung is firing back with a bunch of core hardware patents... The patents they're using are closer in idea to what the patent system was originally designed for, as opposed to Apple patents which are an abuse of the patent system.

There is also the fact that Samsung is using these in a defensive role... Apple are a bunch of douchebags who rather than seek reasonable licensing fees (this happens a LOT and you never hear about it because sane companies ask for reasonable and non-excessive fees), immediately seek injunctions to have devices removed from the market.

* egregious espionage and mutual ripoffs of billions of R&D investments that then become unrecoverable, or

* constant ongoing patent wars that chew up hundreds of millions in legal costs and require billions of investment into patent warchests

The whole situation has happened before, though. 150 years ago we had a similar war over the patents for sewing machines. It eventually led to the Sewing Machine Combination [wikipedia.org], which was a patent pool that created a 20-year cartel of four manufacturers. They were the only ones allowed to produce cutting-edge sewing machines.

Notably, the next major innovation in sewing machines (the rotary hook) sat unexploited until the combination expired in 1876 (sources here [wikipedia.org] and here [wikipedia.org].

Cartels and imaginary property are two huge enemies of progress. What needs to happen is regulation of patent enforcement. If major show-stopper patents (or whatever legal mumbo-jumbo) like being a rectangle can be patented then you shouldn't be granted a monopoly on it. And that's no matter how long that monopoly lasts - technology these days moves forward exponentially faster than it used to.

Sometimes I go all hippy-spiritual and think maybe patents slowing down progress is actually a good thing. The world is moving so fast, people can't keep up. If we can stave off progress for 14-28 years, that'll give us all time to catch up on the current technology before we have to start learning the new stuff.

Climate change could be good... in the Patent World. Global warming in the Patent World might cause such violent storms that the ensuing peace would be a long time of great calm. A new age of the Patent World, in which technology will thrive without the chaos caused by unstable patents.

Every smartphone manufacturer seems to be suing every other manufacturer. So if we take this to it's ultimate conclusion, then nobody will be able to release any smartphones, as all other manufacturers will be blocking them. Mabe if that happens, then we'll might see some sanity return.

I know they're just fighting Apple on the same grounds but... with all the fanboys just waiting for the newest super greatest next product from Apple, won't this just hurt Samsung in the long run?A pissed customer may never come back.

It's worse if you allow a competitor (who is also a customer) limit your ability to do business.

Sometimes it's better to ignore bullies. But this is a bully bullying a bully. And this bully, in Korea, is treated as royalty. This bully's bully has the war-making backing and influence of their government. If you think the influence of business over government in the US is bad, you haven't seen what Samsung's influence over Korea is like.

I understand that Samsung may have very loyal fans in Korea but this story is about Europe. Samsung may not be able to fight off Apple in the US but going and screwing Europeans hardly seems like an appropriate answer.

The problem here is how the patent system is being abused but the end result is millions across Europe may see themselves unable to buy iPhone 5. I couldn't care less, my cell phone does all I need but for some people having the latest gadget is the most important thing. If you see yourself un

I understand that Samsung may have very loyal fans in Korea but this story is about Europe. Samsung may not be able to fight off Apple in the US but going and screwing Europeans hardly seems like an appropriate answer.

Actually, Samsung has very loyal fans all over the world. They're just not suffering from inferiority complex and don't see a brand as a religion, so you don't hear much from them.

My "logic" does not say anything about reciprocity. The difference in this case is Apple sells loads of iPhones and everyone knows what they are, whereas if you ask a random person what does the Samsung Galaxy S look like they won't know (obviously I'm not talking about us at Slashdot). A lot of people care about the iPhone and everyone knows what it is, a few people feel the same way about the Galaxy S.

My guess is that most people see this as Samsung fighting back, so they are more likely going to be given a free pass. Now if Apple would offer to drop this whole nonsense and Samsung would continue to pursue them, that would likely turn public opinion against them.

Also Apple is in a somewhat unfortunate position here, because it's easy to understand why their patents on a rather trivial shape are stupid. I've worked a long time in telecom, so I suspect Samsung's patents might be just as stupid - most pat

Apple fanboys are pathetic. Worthless hipster DOUCHEBAGS that don't know anything about technology and just buy the latest shiny device because a fancy commercial convinces them that they need it.

OMFG DROID BIONIC????!!! HOLY FUCKIN SHIT, that thing looks fuckin AWESOME. omfg DUAL CORE PROCESSOR and LTE, this thing makes my Thunderbolt that I just bought last month look like a pile of puke. I need that, I'm buying that the DAY IT COMES OUT.

Anyway, Apple fanboys are stupid and just buy the newest super greatest next product based on hype.

Samsung hasn't actually done anything. I am sure some middle manager spouted off about getting back at Apple in Europe when the iPhone 5 comes out and then one reporter devised it must be true and now all the rumor and tech sites post it as fact.

Afterall I didn't think Apple were suing over patents, instead it was over the fact that Samsung had ripped off the iPhone interface for the Galaxy S etc. If Samsung went back to a more standard Android application launcher they could probably get this whole sorry mess sorted. Instead they are defending their right to use the the interface that Apple developed.

Nope. The injunction was under the insane and ridiculously vague EU Community Design [osnews.com] system. Specifically, apple drew something vaguely tablet-like on the back of a napkin before the ipad even existed, filed it - which results in automatic approval - then used it to sue Samsung years later, being sure to file in Germany since there's no requirement to inform the other party there.

Apple wasn't interested in any type of licensing agreement. They wanted Samsung's products ban. Why not return the favor? Apple wants to take a scorched earth approach to dealing with competition. By all means, give it to them.

I think I'm supposed to give you this whoosh. The joke centers around Apple's ability to retain control of devices, and how they would exert this control over the judge's ipad\pod\phone to influence the decision.

One major point of difference is that Samsung has patents on actual pieces of electronics which are required for the phones to work the way they do, which took investment in research and development to achieve. Apple has patents on rectangles with rounded corners.

"LG Electronics has claimed the iPhone's design was copied from the LG Prada. Woo-Young Kwak, head of LG Mobile Handset R&D Center, said at a press conference, “We consider that Apple copied the Prada phone after the design was unveiled when it was presented in the iF Design Award and won the prize in September 2006."

If you look at photos of both, with Prada's tablet like look and large capacitative touch screen, it's pretty clear the iPhone is just a rip-off