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A muscle not in a relaxed state (ignoring tonus for the moment) is tense. Anytime a tendon is attached to a tense muscle it is in stress. This is just physics. On a piano you can have, as I keep on saying, zero tension/stress before initiating key depression. On a guitar you can't.

Originally posted by keyboardklutz: A muscle not in a relaxed state (ignoring tonus for the moment) is tense. Anytime a tendon is attached to a tense muscle it is in stress. This is just physics. On a piano you can have, as I keep on saying, zero tension/stress before initiating key depression. On a guitar you can't. [/b]

By your definition of muscle tension (which I don't disagree with) you have tension when you play a piano key 'cause you gotta hold your arm in position to play the key!

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if you are playing your guitar with the tension you are talking about, you are doing it wrong. You make it out to sound like you grip the neck as hard as you can. If you really have a notion like that, may I suggest guitar lessons?

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I'm talking pickin' hand here! In placing your hand on the keys you have a small amount of tension in the biceps which hold the forearm horizontal. They can take it. The long tendons of the flexors make tension there undesirable until required. Guitarists suffer from dystonia in their right hand.

Originally posted by keyboardklutz: I'm talking pickin' hand here! In placing your hand on the keys you have a small amount of tension in the biceps which hold the forearm horizontal. They can take it. The long tendons of the flexors make tension there undesirable until required. Guitarists suffer from dystonia in their right hand.[/b]

New Age acoustic guitarist Billy McLaughlin announced via his website that he is suffering from focal dystonia, which severely limits his ability to play. Another musician to be afflicted by this condition is shred guitarist Terry Syrek, who recorded his entire album "AUM" with just two fully functioning fingers of his fret hand. A well known bass guitarist, Andy Billups, who plays with British rock act The Hamsters, has also made a partial recovery from this disorder and continued to play by using modified guitar plectrums to make up for the limited function of his right hand. Classical guitarist David Leisner has recovered the full use of his hand and has returned successfully to the concert stage and recording studio in the early 1990s after a decade of disability. Brazilian singer-guitarist Badi Assad was diagnosed with focal dystonia in 1999 (after having been misdiagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome). She eventually recovered and was able to resume her career.[1]

I wonder if overpracticing might be what contributes to dystonia? Really good players practice a LOT. Besides I've played guitar and piano for a while, with good technique, and without overpracticing. Never had a single problem.

It may be important to look at time spent playing without rest rather than to look at the "naturalness" of guitar hand positions. Assuming good technique, playing guitar should feel quite natural.

[edit] You added two more links and more info, thanks!

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Originally posted by Horowitzian:It's just like piano. Anyone who gets injured playing guitar is probably using poor technique. [/b]

That's a bit smug, though mostly true. The latest consensus is that there is a genetic component.

If you want to call fingers curved beyond their 'hanging from your wrist' state relaxed, then go ahead. I see it as tension, no matter how it feels to you (it won't feel tense, the body doesn't allow that feeling to surface), and therefore one of the guitar's differences.

Squeeze your right forearm with your fingers curved as they might be for playing guitar. Muscles feel pretty loose don't they? Now move your fingers while in that curved state, while still squeezing the forearm. Now you feel tension as the flexors and extensors do their work, right? Tension that is completely necessary.

Now try clenching a fist. While clenched, you've got hard tension in that forearm. But you can completely relax your forearm without opening your hand.

Tension does not result from where you hold your hand, but from how you go about holding it. [/b]

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Originally posted by Horowitzian:Now try clenching a fist. While clenched, you've got hard tension in that forearm. But you can completely relax your forearm without opening your hand. [/b]

Now you've gone and done it! What do you think, for Christ sake (Kreisler twitches), keeps your hand from opening? The fairies? [/b]

Why not give the test a try? Anyone can feel a tense muscle. Anyone can feel a relaxed muscle. Do what I said, clench a fist and then relax it without opening your hand. Feel the forearm. Those muscles are relaxed. And I can even shake my fingers freely by shaking my arm while they are curved like that. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

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Originally posted by Horowitzian: Anyone can feel a tense muscle. Anyone can feel a relaxed muscle. Do what I said, clench a fist and then relax it without opening your hand. Feel the forearm. Those muscles are relaxed. No if's, and's, or but's. [/b]

That's kinda the point. The body subsumes habitual tension so that you can't feel it (otherwise you'd feel tense every time you used a muscle).

Originally posted by Horowitzian: What? I can't feel tension? So the tension I feel when I clench a fist, play octaves fast , or lift a heavy box is my imagination running amok? [/b]

That is not habitual tension. You don't have to be an MD to work out that the body doesn't tell you about the tensions going on in your body as you go about your habitual day-to-day. Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains. I feel tension when my hand is not 'open', you don't. It took me years and a lot of help to achieve.

Are you a guitar conservatoire graduate cause I gotta have concrete proof from valid sources...

Quote:

I wander thro' each charter'd street, Near where the charter'd Thames does flow, And mark in every face I meet Marks of weakness, marks of woe.

Originally posted by Horowitzian: What? I can't feel tension? So the tension I feel when I clench a fist, play octaves fast , or lift a heavy box is my imagination running amok? [/b]

That is not habitual tension. You don't have to be an MD to work out that the body doesn't tell you about the tensions going on in your body as you go about your habitual day-to-day. Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains. I feel tension when my hand is not 'open', you don't. It took me years and a lot of help to achieve.

Are you a guitar conservatoire graduate cause I gotta have concrete proof from valid sources...

Quote:

I wander thro' each charter'd street, Near where the charter'd Thames does flow, And mark in every face I meet Marks of weakness, marks of woe.

As Aristotle said when asked about slavery - "Just look at 'em!" [/b]

Are you a "conservatoire" grad? :rolleyes:

I'm not, and don't claim to be. Being a "conservatoire" grad does not make anyone an instant expert in everything anyway.

This business about not being able to feel tension sounds like a load of BS to me. How could anyone ever know if they are playing correctly without injurious tension if they cannot feel it? Naturally, you are not normally aware of involuntary muscle tension (e.g. heartbeat), but you can sure feel tension in voluntary muscle action.

I want concrete PROOF of what you are saying, not more pontificating. If you can't provide that, just go away; because I won't let you rest until you do. Give me real proof that I'm wrong and I'll change my view.

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Originally posted by Horowitzian: How could anyone ever know if they are playing correctly without injurious tension if they cannot feel it? [/b]

You have someone who knows tell you week after week, month after month, year after year. [/b]

Well, I can feel when I have too much tension. I could even feel it before I had much experience playing.

Seems like you've got problems if you have unwanted tension in your playing year after year...

It's obvious from all the hot air you blow that you either can't or won't back up your hypothesis that one cannot feel tension in the body. Until you do as much, I'll be taking your opinion with say, a 15-lb. bag of salt. :p

Cheers!

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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.