Quote:How come it seems that the only defenders or the most vocal defenders are ITF based?

Quote:ITFUNITITY All respect but....I agree with much of what you post on this forum but feel that I must comment on your statement about why is it that ITF people are the ones that seem to always be defending TKD. What do you mean that this is the ITF syllabus? What were you referring to?

Wow, whoa, slow down!Please read what I said! I never bad mouthed anyone or any style. I simple said with reference to this thread, that TKD does deserve somewhat its poor reputation in many instances for SD. This criticism was not limited to you, your school, the Kukkiwon, the WTF, the ITF, as all of these places, including mine, have weaknesses. All to some extent have been softened or corrupted over time. hence, the rise of MMAs to fill a void.Now it seemed that the back & forth that was being exchanged, seemed to me to be myself, Mr. Anslow, Mr. Boik & other ITF type of TKD posters that were defending or explaning the present day perception of TKD with respect to loosing face/popularity.I was merely wondering why non-ITF style students were not more vocal in the exchange.

I will not respond to the rest of your post, as it seems you have some pent up resentment to the ITF. I never have posted my way is the best way, or even better. In addition, I am a frequent critic of many things I see in the ITF. I try to refrain from commenting on things I have little experience with. Most of my entire exposure in the MAs has been to ITF TKD. It serves my purpose & I am continuing a life long pursuit of it, so I may better understand it more fully. I certainly am not a jack of all trades.

Quote: Ok.So you actualy hit each other in the throat?You knee each other in the balls?You break each others arms?You actualy kick each others knees?You actually elbow each other full board in the face?You go for the eyes fully?I thow eacho ther full on onto thefloor and stamp on each others heads? ETC ETC ETC? That is the most hardcore place I know of.I think maybe you are missinterpretting me.Oh well.

No you don't share the same definition of compliance that I do. I would define what you post above as control. By compliance I merely mean that the attacker attacks for real, in the case of 1 steps with 1 attack whose aim is to strike the opponent, not partner. The defender either either defends or gets hit & they are limited to one counter attack, as no opponent will ever pose for someone else, allowing them to go to town on a model.

Quote:That TKD is a good martial art for SD against an untrained person it can be fun and have alot to offer.It has not got everything and is not best suited if you want to learn to fight at all ranges. What is wrong with saying that? Why is it so bad?

I agree & it is not so bad, as TKD offers more than just SD. However, it does have limitations with respect to SD. Hopefully more will realize this & if SD is paramount to them, either correct it, supplement it or find a school that concentrates on street tuff SD.

Quote:Well, that is certainly not what non-compliance means. Rather you are talking about lack of control. Compliance is a partner allowing you to attack attack without defending themselves, or doing what they are "supposed to do." I think ITFUnity is pointing out that one-steps are not compliant because the attack is random- it can be a hand or leg technique, a grab etc. The fact that there is some compliance after the attack has been made is purely a tool for allowing people to practice techniques once in a while, instead of being forced to do it in sparring, where you may never get an opportunity to pull many techniques off against better opponents.

For what it's worth, I actually disagree that there is no compliance in one-steps. Because the counter is done against a still target, not exactly realistic, it would be difficult to call it not compliant. Afterall, a fight rarely involves one technique. However, I can recognise it as a useful tool for some people, especially for learning to block and move away from techniques.

Exactly!In addition, our 1 steps & all our step sparring is limited to 1 immediate counter attack, as no person will simply stand there & pose as a model whan you go to town on them. The purpose is to simulate actual combat, the 1st exchange. You either get hit or defend. As far as the counter goes, it is a drill to do an immediate counter, with the emphasis on learning correct tool to approriate vital spot.Real fighting comes in with free sparring, where students are free to use any & all techniques. Not to be confused with tournament sparring.So 1 step sparring is the final drill in step sparring. The purpose of 3 steps is to teach & emphasize distance for brand new beginners. 2 steps are to teach & familirize students with the use of BOTH hand & foot for attack, defense & counter. With 1 step purpose explained above. They are all part of a sequence within the context of a larger syllabus. Again, offered only to explain, not to claim better than any other way.

Quote:Von1 and Badachagi, I think Unity was just saying he didn't hear alot from your side but your posts have proven otherwise. This is what we need to hear/read. We need to hear about the schools that teach the Art, not just Olympic sparring, or TKD daycares but the complete art.

Quote:Jhoon Rhee was with Bruce Lee at times and apparently showed him some kicks.There are pictures and accounts yes?So he is researching all fighting and Jhoon Rhee forgetts to mention how TKD was doing all that before?

Anyway,it seems its impossible for me to get an unbiased discussion as you are very passionate about TKD.This getting way to negative.

First of all, here is where your lack of apparent understanding gets in the way. (NOTE: This is not a personal attack) Jhoon Rhee was simply a student of the Chung Do kwan, not TKD. He was not a military TKD pioneer. So your critique does not apply here, as you are using an apple to be compared against the orange I put forth.

Jhoon Rhee basically taught Korean Karate when he came to the States as a student. He later adopted the Chang Hon patterns, which he later discarded when he came up with his own set. Again, nothing wrong with that. he then adopted the name TKD, as it became very popular due to the work of the military pioneers as they spread their system around the globe. So he more approriately fits under the TKD that is used as an umbrella name.So I can not respond to your point, as it is not directed to the original TKD that was developed in the Korean Army. Again, you are mixing apples & oranges.

Please don't give up the debate. I am passionate about my style of TKD, I try to reamin unbiased, please reference my repeated criticisms of my own style & direct me to where I have let any bias get in the way.

Quote: First of all, here is where your lack of apparent understanding gets in the way. (NOTE: This is not a personal attack) Jhoon Rhee was simply a student of the Chung Do kwan, not TKD. He was not a military TKD pioneer. So your critique does not apply here, as you are using an apple to be compared against the orange I put forth.

Jhoon Rhee basically taught Korean Karate when he came to the States as a student. He later adopted the Chang Hon patterns, which he later discarded when he came up with his own set. Again, nothing wrong with that. he then adopted the name TKD, as it became very popular due to the work of the military pioneers as they spread their system around the globe. So he more approriately fits under the TKD that is used as an umbrella name.So I can not respond to your point, as it is not directed to the original TKD that was developed in the Korean Army. Again, you are mixing apples & oranges.

Please don't give up the debate. I am passionate about my style of TKD, I try to reamin unbiased, please reference my repeated criticisms of my own style & direct me to where I have let any bias get in the way.

Mmm.Ok.I understand that.Though still cant see how he would not have heard from fellow koreans or taken up those methods.Its like it was a big secret no one told anyone,demonstrated or photed,filmed etc yet in later on,especialy in recent times to co incide with peoples wake up to grappling,it appears tkd was doing it all.

What about He Ill Cho?He finished first as far as I know in the military test(?) .He in recent times has incorporated BJJ and stated grapplings importance.Would he and should of not been doing that for 50 odd years already?I remember him specificaly commenting on MMA and and one his guys was goingto try for the UFC AFTER incorporating grappling.He said nothing of having already done it.

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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

Well, that is certainly not what non-compliance means. Rather you are talking about lack of control. Compliance is a partner allowing you to attack attack without defending themselves, or doing what they are "supposed to do." I think ITFUnity is pointing out that one-steps are not compliant because the attack is random- it can be a hand or leg technique, a grab etc. The fact that there is some compliance after the attack has been made is purely a tool for allowing people to practice techniques once in a while, instead of being forced to do it in sparring, where you may never get an opportunity to pull many techniques off against better opponents.

For what it's worth, I actually disagree that there is no compliance in one-steps. Because the counter is done against a still target, not exactly realistic, it would be difficult to call it not compliant. Afterall, a fight rarely involves one technique. However, I can recognise it as a useful tool for some people, especially for learning to block and move away from techniques.

Exactly!In addition, our 1 steps & all our step sparring is limited to 1 immediate counter attack, as no person will simply stand there & pose as a model whan you go to town on them. The purpose is to simulate actual combat, the 1st exchange. You either get hit or defend. As far as the counter goes, it is a drill to do an immediate counter, with the emphasis on learning correct tool to approriate vital spot.Real fighting comes in with free sparring, where students are free to use any & all techniques. Not to be confused with tournament sparring.So 1 step sparring is the final drill in step sparring. The purpose of 3 steps is to teach & emphasize distance for brand new beginners. 2 steps are to teach & familirize students with the use of BOTH hand & foot for attack, defense & counter. With 1 step purpose explained above. They are all part of a sequence within the context of a larger syllabus. Again, offered only to explain, not to claim better than any other way.

I see those points.Though I said a certain amount of compliance.The compliance you both talk about being there.That HAS to be there.Your not actualy hitting so its compliance, not lack of control,in my eyes.The attacker has compliantly stopped attacking pressuming he was hit in hhis throat or balls or head stamped on etc.

And there is still confusion over the free sparring your claiming is MMA type anything goes allowing all techniques.Doing that has to be sport techniques,which is not Original TKD.OR to do it with ALL true TKD techniques you still need the 'lack of controll',that your calling it,or compliance.And that would not resemble MMA type ,continuing sparring.

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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

Quote:In my view you're putting your perspective as if every street corner was filled with bloody thirsty streetfighters and MMA practitioners. MMA is NOT SD.

Wrong then im afraid.I can put MMA type drills and sparring in perspective and know full well what it is and what it is not.How could I not after bleeting on about putting TKD into perspective.I just find it sensible,more fun and challenging to train with a highly skilled opponent in mind.I still train in TKD and actualy find more in it now making personaly adaptions and applications.I dont feel you see how MMA/NHB type drills can cross over to SD or what type of drills go on or how they can be created to fit many, many situations.

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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.