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You said the senseis are offering take care of it so let them do that. I don't know what their plan is but if they take care of it and nothing changes then in my honest opinion you need to find a different place to train.

Refusing to work with her is something you also need to discuss with your sensei. I can't imagine many senseis who will allow a student to refuse training with someone without getting the sensei's approval to do so.

I've been following this post. People have been giving good advice. You may not be happy with the outcome but without us being in your dojo I don't think there is much more advice you can be given.

My sensei's have offered a solution to the verbal stuff, not the actual physical striking which could easily be assault on the outside if you think about it. I have yet to mention the physical stuff as i was at one of our other dojo's for fridays lesson and i have to wait till monday to do that.

At least read the thread in its entirety if you are going to comment please. You are quoting a solution that was given prior to fridays event and is no longer applicable as we are on another level now that physical striking has been introduced. I appreciate you trying to help but the game has changed since you read the solution you think i need to follow.

Mary, lets just say that you got something wrong on the mat and I start slapping you. Every time you get something wrong i am gonna say you suck, you should give this crap up as you are friggen worthless.

This will get on your nerves and you will do something about it. There is no question about it. You are human and will defend yourself one day even if that day is twenty years, or even fifty years, from now. No human has that much control over themselves. You will crack eventually no matter how strong you think you are. You are no saint. You are not jesus, buddha or some other deity. Be realistic.

Now, why should you put up with all those years of me doing that to you?

If this continues the dojo is also opening themselves up to legal repercussions if this women is not dealt with as it is pretty close to harassment as it is. It is persistent even if she does not know what she is doing. The fact that she has been allowed to get away with it for so long is worrying. And she does not seem to want to back down when confronted about her behavior.

Yeah, i have a choice to continue going there or not but at this point it will solely rely on whether i am made to train with these two or not. Nobody can force me to "work" with anybody and if so then i will take my choice to walk and go someplace else.

Concessions are made for muslims who refuse to bow to the shomen so why none me? We are non-profit by the way so its not that simple.

I no longer trust those two to treat me in a safe manner on the mat. It's that simple. Nobody else is going to watch out for my welfare while on the mat. It's up for me. It's my job to prevent injury to myself and not yours.

I think this thread has gone as far as it can here so thanks to you all.

Y'all gotta forgive my rant mode.....

Dude. Really. If you are going to take a martial art, you are going to get hit once in a while. While I agree that smacking your hand is a shitty way to communicate the fact that you're doing something wrong, the common, traditional, and very effective feedback loop in a martial art is a bit more uncomfortable than that.....

Your sempai do watch out for your welfare on the mat. That's what sempai do. Aikido is a martial art. It is for learning how to defend yourself from folks who intend to do far worse than hurt your feelings or make you a little uncomfortable. Effective training has got to go there. If you are at all in it for any defense or fighting skill, this is exactly what you will be coming up against over and over and over or you're doing it wrong. You will be coming up against yourself in reaction to other people. This is how martial arts changes your ego. This is polishing the mirror and sharpening the sword. Your bad sempai is actually a bad sempai and is actually the best training partner you've got. She pisses you off because you are pissing yourself off with her. If you get through this heck with her, you are really just getting through the outer candy shell of the hell you're giving yourself. This is what the folks who have been telling you that you're too sensitive have been saying.

Aikido IS about finding the center. Your center. Her center. The center of balance between you and her. The center of balance between you and her and her husband and your sempai and your sensei. The center between you and the entire universe Aikido IS meditation. It IS a good path to inner peace. All that woowoo bullshit means that in order to regain your center, you have to be continually knocked off your center. Emotionally, psychologically, physically, financially, logistically, thermodynamically, every single way you can be disturbed, aikido training HAS TO disturb you. Aikido training is kicking your ass and you are letting it. She is winning. Aikido is winning. Natural selection is winning. At your expense. What are you going to do about it?

Is it freaking easy to go hide and pretend that sitting politely unwashed in a cave is meditation. The pseudomystics and aikibunnies love that shit. They get to class early so that they can smile and ommmm at each other in peace and seiza in a perfect line for an hour before the aikido starts so that they can meditate before all that martialness running around making a mess starts. That is easy. Anyone can get all evolved and spiritual and crap when its quiet. They miss the biggest point, they miss why their training is ineffective. They miss that they are looking at it wrong. That sort of inner peace is fragile, brittle, precious, because it is easy. It is easy to be calm when the world around you is calm.

It is hard to be calm when the environment is noisy. It is really unbelievably hard to be aware, calm, rational, relaxed, perceptive, and everything else the accomplished martial artist/meditator is supposed to be when there's noise and lights and anger and pain and blood, and real, present danger. Too late to meditate. So, do it IN class. Practice meditation, practice self control when it is hard to be self-controlled, while you're getting all sweaty and the ukemi makes you want to puke and somebody is doing something you dont like to you. If you cant find your happy place in class with an uke you have a problem with, you will never find the psychological place that you can think from and use for your survival when your uke is actually trying to kill you.

If it is just the physical fitness you want, walk your dog. It'll work way better than aikido will. The fat old nidan is evidence of that noise. You want a deep connection with other people? Spend time with your family. If you want exercise with happy controlled physical contact with other people, ballroom dancing is great, lots of aikido folk even do that. If you want to learn how to defeat other people, get a gun and take lessons at the range. If you want to learn how to defeat yourself so that other people cannot defeat you, go to your aikido class, bow in, turn to your bad sempai, smile, and grab her wrist. She is ALWAYS going to be on the mat with you as long as you do aikido (or anything else) because YOU are always going to be on the mat with you....

You say that you now speak Japanese after a couple months of aikido. Great. Damatte keiko. Che....

Krystal, you've got a lot of good points, but you're wrong about meditation. It's off the topic completely and the subject for a much longer thread, but believe me, you're utterly wrong that "[a]nyone can get all evolved and spiritual and crap when its quiet." Sit for a weekend, really DO IT as opposed to pretending to do it, as opposed to making up your own mind what it's all about and talking to yourself and making up your own stories about "this spiritual crap is crap" and thinking about what you'd rather be doing and what you'll have for dinner -- all the while you're supposed to be meditating -- and then come back and tell me that anyone can do it. Hell, tell me that YOU did it. I'll have much more respect for your views at that point...and, I predict, you'll be embarrassed by your earlier statements.

You have some good points here, but sitting isn't in contrast to what you advocate. Wanting one's aikido practice to always be congenial and comfortable is. You're right to tee off on that notion, but sitting meditation is not by any means congenial and comfortable,

My opinions on a topic that is maybe not complete enough to form an opinion...

Rei is an important part of training. In the beginning, I feel it also carries a burden of establishing a safe environment and setting expectations for how you will be treated. That is respect for your juniors, respect for for seniors and respect for your instructors. It sounds like, for whatever reason, you feel that your partner is not being respectful of you.

To this extent, you have an opportunity to inquire if you do not feel you are being treated respectfully and within the culture of the dojo. To Mary's point, as part of the dojo, you consent to the authority of the dojo. If you have appealed to the partner and appealed to the dojo and you still do not have satisfaction... It sounds like you are immersed in a culture and environment that is not going to give the satisfaction you want.

There are dojos that simply do not "click" with you. Its not about right and wrong as much as it is comfort. If you are doing things right, much of your aikido training should be uncomfortable and anxious. You need to be in a safe environment so you can concentrate on the training. It sounds like you are not in the right dojo.

To David's point, there are some things that are not acceptable on or off the mat. There are some things that are acceptable on the mat and they should be so obvious the dojo could hang a sing in the window. A large part of my early training was inclusive of striking; it was also part of the dojo culture and therefore expected as part of training. You either moved or was moved and everyone received that conditioning. Some people did not like that and left, but it was never a mistake to think that your training would be different than anyone else's.

Aikido tends to attract non-confrontationalists. I do not understand how so many people adverse to confrontation would train in a martial art, but... sometimes dojos do not do a great job of standing up for your interest. Sometimes your interests cause issues dojo leaders would rather not address. To this extent, you need to understand that you are your best advocate. You can either help compromise your interests or you can take the entirety of your interests elsewhere. Most people have some compromise in their training - you just need to keep your core interests intake.

I spoke with the head of the dojo tonight. He is aware now of this thread as i gave the details on how to find this place. I voiced my concerns and explained in the time that we have what i thought. The initial response was that he was gonna have none "of this fighting/tension in his dojo" and that either we work this out or one of us is gonna have to go. I agreed. I have been given "leave" from the couple for a bit to let some time pass and then we will talk. He is gonna talk with both of them in the near future. Probably wednesday.

My sensei told me stories of having japanese sensei's that slapped people straight up in the face as that is how, some, of the japanese deal with that situation if you get stuff wrong. I guess i am fortunate as that would not go down well with me at all and i would end up in a nasty shihonage on the floor. But that is their culture he said.

Time heals. I know it does. Hopefully some time away on both parties will be beneficial. I am not an angry young man and want confrontation. I do not seek it. I avoid that like i avoid the plague and always have. Maybe too much as i can't seem to take, what in her eyes would be, a simple slap to remind me that i got it wrong. Did the slap hurt me physically? No. It might have hurt my pride. I did feel violated and disrespected though. I am sure if i addressed the initial issues i had with her right away that i would not have had the time to let this build up into something bigger. I did try the subtle way by saying i am a white belt ect so its not just my fault as she progressed from verbal to physical action.

I have faith and confidence in my sensei and trust his judgement. I did come into the dojo with baggage just as she came into the dojo with some bad habits. I am far too sensitive and have not developed a thick skin like Krystal and others have. I envy you people but this can and will be worked on.

The thought of me leaving the dojo because i cannot deal with a situation is not one i want to face and am not willing to face despite my earlier protestations. I cant do it. I only have an issue with one person and not the whole dojo, so that can be dealt with by talking as opposed to not dealing with it. One of my best friends when i was younger i met during a fight. A young turkish boy in germany. It's not like our cultures could have contrasted any more. Mustafa a muslim and little pig eating me yet we got on.

I think it was krystal that said something to the effect of i will always be facing myself when i look at her and it did not make any sense at all to me. Till now. I think she means that my problem or inability to deal with my own issues and inability to just let the stuff brush off of me is what i see in her when we would face off again in the dojo during training. As in she will just remind me of what my own problems are.

I am not quitting. That would be giving in to defeat and i don't generally go down that path in the sports i have chosen in my life. I have always been a good sportsman and i will excel in aikido with the right preparation.

I still think janet's initial response of ignore it all was probably the best one. Had i done that i would not be sitting here. Had i thicker skin and could recognize that she is just playing and not trying to intentionally disrespect me as well as trying to help me by pointing out my mistakes i would not be here. But having been a victim of abuse when i was younger, beatings and large blocks of time spent staring at my four walls locked in my room, it seems i am not willing to let go of it. I still think of it too much and it is effecting me. Sensei said i need to let go of it. Let it go. It's hard but it seems it has a large grip on me and the way i think. It's not like we can get any serious help for it in the United states for it if you do not have health insurance so most of us trod though life with this baggage no matter where we go.

I want to apologize for my little outbursts as all of you were trying to help me and i was blind to the fact and disrespectful. Sorry.

I am just now coming to realize how deep aikido is and that it is not just a set of moves to defend yourself with. It's a state of mind.

Krystal, you've got a lot of good points, but you're wrong about meditation. It's off the topic completely and the subject for a much longer thread, but believe me, you're utterly wrong that "[a]nyone can get all evolved and spiritual and crap when its quiet." Sit for a weekend, really DO IT as opposed to pretending to do it, as opposed to making up your own mind what it's all about and talking to yourself and making up your own stories about "this spiritual crap is crap" and thinking about what you'd rather be doing and what you'll have for dinner -- all the while you're supposed to be meditating -- and then come back and tell me that anyone can do it. Hell, tell me that YOU did it. I'll have much more respect for your views at that point...and, I predict, you'll be embarrassed by your earlier statements.

You have some good points here, but sitting isn't in contrast to what you advocate. Wanting one's aikido practice to always be congenial and comfortable is. You're right to tee off on that notion, but sitting meditation is not by any means congenial and comfortable,

Like I said, my post was a rant, a little hyperbolic, a little venting. If I came across too strong, just take is as entertainment. I used to sit. I would sit until I sweated from sitting. Sticks, no sticks, sitting, walking, a bowl, no bowl, half a glass of water, I've done a fair amount of that sort of meditation. I watched other folks' demons come out, I watched my own demons come out, I've rounded off more suzu than I've made. Toho kami emi tame from sun down to sun up. I just dont get hardly the value from it that I get from practicing the same mindfulness, presence, acceptance and intro/extrospection while in the midst of distraction and effort. Meditation is inherently paradoxical. Is the master awake? How is a fundamentally solipsistic practice ever going to answer that?

Most of y'all know I'm a pretty enthusiastic atheist, and I do think that a whole bunch of the spiritual/philosophical crap put on top of aikido is not just crap but crap that is a misinterpretation of a misappropriation of another culture's crap. If other folks get goodness out of it, go ahead on, I'll just tiptoe through and stretch in the dressing room. What I got from sitting was good in and of itself. It just didn't translate well to reality. It was ultimately just imbalance in the other direction.

I just dont get hardly the value from it that I get from practicing the same mindfulness, presence, acceptance and intro/extrospection while in the midst of distraction and effort. Meditation is inherently paradoxical. Is the master awake? How is a fundamentally solipsistic practice ever going to answer that?

Meditation is not a solipsistic practice.

Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote:

Most of y'all know I'm a pretty enthusiastic atheist

Bully for you, but while meditation is a broad term that can refer to a practice of a religious belief system, the kind of meditation you specifically mentioned doing has nothing at all to do with any belief in a deity. I'm quite sure you're aware of this. So what's the point of bringing up your atheism?

Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote:

and I do think that a whole bunch of the spiritual/philosophical crap put on top of aikido is not just crap but crap that is a misinterpretation of a misappropriation of another culture's crap.

I predict you're going to find it impossible to have a civil and rational conversation with anyone on this topic as long as you insist on using terms like "crap" that are fraught with incivility.

I'm not an atheist and not too adverse against spirituality, even if I don't always understand it...but I liked this experssion "crap that is a misinterpretation of a misappropriation of another culture's crap" very much. It's applicable to much more than our version of aikido spirituality...

a person in the dojo of higher rank than you who is muttering stuff, including swear words, under their breath,

I am 3 Kyu training as Uke with first Kyu. We are performing Tai no henka without grabbing or touching. Sensei is teaching off line body movement. The attack is Mune tsuki .For some unknown reason the First Kyu always grabs my wrist to perform Kote Gaeshi. I am getting annoyed as we are not supposed to make contact. I amp my attack up a bit to the displeasure of Nage, who completely miss's grabbing my wrist. My action provokes Nage to walk off the mat. Surrounding training partners stop and look in amaze. I quickly approach Nage with an apology to which I get the reply "Fuck off" I approach Nage and whisper in his "ear do not talk to me like that again"! After training, off the mat I tell Sensei what happened? We avoid each other on the mat as to be expected, and then one day out of the blue the First Kyu wants to train with me. It was a pleasant experience to my surprise. As they say "Nip it in the bud" All the best with training.

I kinda think that you are a bit of a gentleman. AND I commend you for not using your strength to retaliate, hit her back, or otherwise enforce your boundaries. I commend you for staying committed to finding a reasonable solution to an out of control situation. Clearly, she has been allowed to disrespect people and behave badly for some time.

If your sensei gave you the out option, or rather suggested that one of you leave, it would be me. You should not have to be harassed and pay money for it. It's Aikido, not MMA. Yes, it's a martial art. But like many martial arts, training with another person is an agreement. Things get unpredictable, risky and dangerous when one breaks the agreement.

I agree with Janet - going to her husband was not quite a good thing. But, I'm sure by now that you've realized that. Lesson learned.

Seems like she is a bully at best and that lead sensei needs to get her in line, or SHE should be told to leave.

Good luck to you and I hope you stay and she leaves, with her equally idiotic husband who questioned your manhood.