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The History of HockeyRelive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

I read a quote about him when he was inducted I think.. and the interviewer asked him how he would describe his game.

Francis said something along the lines of leaving it all out there every game and being a blue collar type worker.. but hopefully with white collar results.

I think that sums him up well. I mean 15 seasons of 75+ points to go with his leadership and two-way play is an amazing career.

You can say he played with Mario or Jagr but for large amounts of his career he didn't. And he was a 100 point man in Hartford too.

To me he is like a better version of Sundin. Sort of the same level of production you can pencil him in for every year. (Sundin being the better goal scorer and Francis the better playmaker obviously) But add in leadership and better two way play.

I have to give Selanne the nod for peak but for career it isn't close for me.. Francis.

BTW Francis outscored Jagr in 92-93, was close in 93-94, not that far off in 94-95 and close in 96-97 (with much worse PPG though). He was ahead of Jagr in ATOI in all seasons but 97-98. Saying that Jagr made Francis on one hand while considering Selanne Kariya's equal on the other is ridiculous.

I'm kind of confused here. Which one saw fewer minutes than the other?

As for overall impact, did either one really bring much more than scoring?

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BTW Francis outscored Jagr in 92-93, was close in 93-94, not that far off in 94-95 and close in 96-97 (with much worse PPG though). He was ahead of Jagr in ATOI in all seasons but 97-98. Saying that Jagr made Francis on one hand while considering Selanne Kariya's equal on the other is ridiculous.

Not to mention that Francis murders Selanne in playoffs.

Nobody is saying that Jagr made Francis; just that Francis wasn't good enough offensively to be a consistent top 10 scorer without Jagr on his line. I think the 9th, 11th, and 12th place finishes Francis had in Hartford and Carolina showed what he was capable of without Jagr.

Jaromir Jagr won his first Art Ross at the age of 22 in 94-95. That's the first year he really became a superstar on his own; it's also the first time Francis (at age 30) was top 10 in points. Anyone who actually watched them from this point on could see who the superstar on the line was an who the excellent complimentary player.

As for the playoffs, Francis definitely has the advantage, but to be fair to Selanne, he never had the benefit of playing on a good team in his prime.

I'm kind of confused here. Which one saw fewer minutes than the other?

As for overall impact, did either one really bring much more than scoring?

Selanne saw fewer minutes. Selanne played much less shorthanded. Kariya was also the captain, not Selanne.

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Nobody is saying that Jagr made Francis; just that Francis wasn't good enough offensively to be a consistent top 10 scorer without Jagr on his line. I think the 9th, 11th, and 12th place finishes Francis had in Hartford and Carolina showed what he was capable of without Jagr.

Jaromir Jagr won his first Art Ross at the age of 22 in 94-95. That's the first year he really became a superstar on his own; it's also the first time Francis (at age 30) was top 10 in points. Anyone who actually watched them from this point on could see who the superstar on the line was an who the excellent complimentary player.

As for the playoffs, Francis definitely has the advantage, but to be fair to Selanne, he never had the benefit of playing on a good team in his prime.

Selanne also hasn't shown any consistent top-10 offense without Kariya. And Francis carried weak Canes to Cup finals. Selanne never carried anything, and on average played on better teams anyway.

Funny bonus playoff fact: Out of 8 seasons together, Francis outscored Jagr in playoffs four times, and always outscored him when the Pens made it past round 1. Selanne never outscored Kariya (granted, just two playofss together).

despite the recent resurgences of "Francis was never really that special" and "Selanne is underrated and a possible top-120 player", I am surprised to see Francis losing this one. Like MadArcand, with intangibles and defense and integrating into a team taken into consideration, I don't see how Selanne contributed more to his team's successes than Francis.

Selanne saw fewer minutes. Selanne played much less shorthanded. Kariya was also the captain, not Selanne.

Selanne also hasn't shown any consistent top-10 offense without Kariya. And Francis carried weak Canes to Cup finals. Selanne never carried anything, and on average played on better teams anyway.

Funny bonus playoff fact: Out of 8 seasons together, Francis outscored Jagr in playoffs four times, and always outscored him when the Pens made it past round 1. Selanne never outscored Kariya (granted, just two playofss together).

Funny bonus playoff fact: Francis has never really produced in the playoffs before or after getting Jagr as a regular linemate

Before Jagr as a linemate 56gp 39pts 0.7ppg (Despite most of the season were in the 80s)
With Jagr 73gp 83pts 1.13ppg
After Jagr 41gp 21 pts 0.51ppg

We excuse Selanne for his poor teams in his early prime but then we try to dock Francis for it?

Selanne in playoffs in his prime (22-30 years old): 21gp 13g 7a. Atleast he scored on those poor teams.

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Francis had a better playoff at 38 years old on a losing team than Selanne did in his best playoff season on a cup winner coming off a 48 goal regular season.

"Francis at 38 had..." Selanne was 37 years old in 07 so it's not like he was a young man either and he scored 15 points in 21 games(14 in 16 in 06). Francis scored 16 in 23 in 02.

I have no doubt that if Selanne had the chance to play more than 21 playoff games in his prime, He would have better playoff stats than Francis.

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Yes cause Hartford was a playoff powerhouse during those days before Pittsburgh

Even if Hartford wasn't a powerhouse, the 5 times Hartford made the playoffs Francis was 11th, 3rd, 2nd, 7th and 2nd in team playoff scoring which doesn't exactly scream "awesome playoff player" either.

edit. And it's not like Francis was an inexpirienced rookie in those Hartford playoff years. He played his first playoffs in his 5th season. In 85-86 he had 1.45ppg in the regular season and posted 1g 2a in 10gp in the playoffs.

00-01 6gp 0g 2a 2pts (He played with a broken wrist and a broken thumb and had a minor knee surgery a month before the playoffs to remove a loose ligament)
01-02 12gp 5g 3a 8pts (the knee + the defensive system of San Jose)
03-04 10gp 0g 3a 3pts (The knee was so bad that he was thinking about ending his career. He played on the 3rd and 4th lines)

37gp 11g 18a 29pts (most by any Duck during the 2 year period by 5 points)

37-39 yo (Back from retirement)

07-08 6gp 2g 2a 4pts (The whole team sucked. Getzlaf and Pronger had 5pts. Selanne played with Weight who had 1 assist)
08-09 13gp 4g 2a 6pts (There's not much you can do if your linemates are Eric Christensen and Andrew Ebbett)

Meh this poll could go either way. However, someone should make a poll comparing selanne to either forsberg or adam oates. I wanna see if jepjepjoo still picks selanne, lol he must be his son or something.