On The Nation: Race Relations Commissioner Dame Susan Devoy

Criticises Prime
Minister John Key for failing to meet with President of the
Islamic Associations, Anwar Ghani, about Islamist extremism
- it’s not good enough” and “he owes the Muslim
community an explanation”.

Says politicians are falling
short as role models on race relations and “it’s my job
to call them out”

Describes Winston Peters is a
“repeat offender” when it comes to inappropriate racial
comments

Devoy says NZ’s refugee intake isn’t good
enough and “New Zealand can and should do a lot better
than we do.”

Says there’s anecdotal evidence of an
increase in Islamophobia in NZ amid the rise of attacks
overseas by Islamic State and New Zealand’s involvement in
the war is “not going to make my job any easier”

“We hear stories, particularly of racial abuse against
women and children in the communities”

Calls for
refugee numbers to increase gradually from current 750 a
year level and for a one-off crisis intake; says a quota of
1000 would be “a start”

“If you think there's 51
million people displaced in the world now with the crises
that are happening, particularly in countries like Syria,
then that's what we should really be doing.”

Says
politicians should make more effort to speak Te Reo
correctly and Te Reo should be compulsory in school

Asked
about key snatching from foreign drivers, Devoy says: “You
know, we shouldn’t become vigilantes that take it upon
ourselves to take keys from anybody, regardless of who they
are.”

Says NZ race relations at “a bit of a
crossroads” due to the changing demographic
make-up

***********Lisa
Owen: You're back with The Nation. Islamic State beheadings,
politicians playing the race card and vigilante Kiwis
snatching keys from foreign drivers. Is all of this fuelling
racial tensions in our backyard. The woman charged with
promoting race relations in the country is Dame Susan Devoy,
and it's fitting that she joins me in the studio this
morning on what is Race Relations Day. Kia ora, Dame Susan.
How would you describe the state of race relations in New
Zealand right now?

Dame Susan Devoy: Right
now I think we're probably at a bit of a crossroads, but I
think it's important on Race Relations Day 2015 that we
acknowledge we are one of the most ethnically diverse
countries in the world. Auckland is now a super-diverse, and
we're also one of the most peaceful nations in the world.
But we shouldn't be complacent. We shouldn't take that for
granted, and we've still got a lot of work to do to ensure
we stay that way.

What do you think the crossroad
is?

Well, I think the changing demographic.
You know, it's come pretty quickly. If you think that one in
10 New Zealanders are now Asian. Here in Auckland, one in
four Aucklanders are Asian-New Zealanders, so that diversity
poses both challenges and opportunities.

Well, when
you talk about diversity and people coming here, you've been
very outspoken about the number of refugees that New Zealand
takes under the quota system. 750 a year. It's been the same
since 1987. Is that good enough?

No, it's
not good enough, really, and, I think, if you look at the
current crisis in the world, New Zealand can and should do a
lot better than we do. But there we have to measure the
messages that go out because it's not a them or us. You
know, I mean, it's fantastic that New Zealanders can raise
money and send it over to Syria to help the situation over
there, but we have the capacity to accept more people into
our country. And refugees want a hand-up, not a
hand-out.

So what do you think is the right
number?

Oh, look, I have no idea what is
exactly the right number, but to increase our quota
gradually over a period of time. And people have talked
about the number 1000 for quite a considerable number of
years. But, you know, we can't...

Do you think
that's realistic — 1000? Would that...?

I
think that's a start. I mean, I know we can't compare
ourselves to other countries, but, you know, in terms of
Australians, they accept a whole lot more refugees than we
do per capita. You know, a pretty significant number. Look
at Jordan. They have a million refugees in a population that
is not much bigger than New Zealand.

If you consider
1000 a start, are your ambitions a bit higher than that?
Would you like to see more than 1000 a
year?

No, because you have to balance it,
actually, with the support that you give to refugees that
come to live in New Zealand, and that's really why it's
careful, cos we don't want to build any, sort of... We want
to make it easier for those people to settle in New Zealand,
and they do need a lot of different support. I mean, I've
met so many refugees, you know, who really just want to
contribute to New Zealand. They are so grateful to be here,
and they want to be good New Zealand citizens. And we owe it
as an international citizen to do that.

So, then
should we maybe take a bunch of refugees as a one-off from
an area of crisis?

Well, we could do that
too because we did that 70 years ago with the Polish
refugees. And if you think there's 51 million people
displaced in the world now with the crises that are
happening, particularly in countries like Syria, then that's
what we should really be doing.

Would you like to
see the government do that?

I would. I
would. You know, we have a seat on the Security Council. You
know, we have a responsibility as an international citizen
to do that, and I think that's really where we should be
heading.

And where should they come from, in this
case? Syria? You talked about Syria
there.

Look, I don't know. But, you know,
we should work with the UNHCR. You know, that's our
responsibility. We should work with them. They're regionally
based in Canberra. And they've passively tried to encourage
New Zealand to take more refugees, and so there needs to be
a lot of work to do before that, but we should really be
making our intentions very clear.

You talk about
responsibility, and I've seen some of your speeches. You say
politicians are role models. And, basically, you're urging
them to lift their game when it comes to race relations. So
how far short are they falling at the moment, do you
think?

Well, it depends. You know, if we're
talking about race relations, then we need champions and we
need good role models, and I think nothing comes better than
a politician, you know, whether they're statesmen and
stateswomen. And we elect them and we expect them to
represent the best interests of all the people that live in
New Zealand.

But you wouldn't be making those
comments if you thought they were all reaching the bar at
the moment. So how far short...?

Well, of
course they're not. But I've got to be careful what I saw.
We've got a by-election around the corner, you know, and
there are certain politicians who have made statements that
are inappropriate, and it's my job to call them out. You
know, I wouldn't be doing my job—

You mentioned
the by-election. That sounds like you're talking about
Winston Peters.

Well, Winston Peters is
certainly a repeat offender when it comes to making
statements. If we look last year — and these issues are
well publicised — you know, his comments before the
general election about two Wongs don't make a right, well,
you know, I will go into my office on Monday after that, and
50% of the people will support Winston and 50% of the people
won't. But I talk to Chinese-New Zealanders who are horribly
offended by that. You know, they want their children to grow
up in a country where they're not the butt of racist jokes.
And people might say, 'Actually, Susan, you're just being
too PC.' Actually, I'm being just correct,
really.

So do you ring him up or have a yarn to him,
have you, and said, 'Look, Mr Peters, could you stop doing
this,' or, 'I need you to lift your game.' Have you had that
conversation?

No, I haven't had that
conversation with him personally, but he knows. I mean, he
reads it in the paper. And, look, I will bang into Winston
many, many times. And we have a mutual respect of each other
because he knows that I'm doing my job too, and that's what
my role is, is to stand up and hold people to
account.

OK, well, Te Reo is part of Race Relations
Day, part of the theme, do you think that people,
politicians in particular, should make more of an effort to
say Maori words correctly?

Undoubtedly.
It's simple. It's not easy. You know, I try really hard with
my pronunciation and trying to learn the few more words...
or try to learn the language, actually. It's incredibly
difficult. But most definitely. You know, we need to make
much more of an effort than we currently do.

So how
would you rate what you hear come out of Parliament at the
moment in terms of that? Because, to be fair, our prime
minister, the leader of this country, practically every day
he butchers Te Reo.

Yeah, but you know,
it’s whether he’s trying. That’s the most important
thing. It’s really important. I mean, I don’t know which
television station it was, but someone was criticised, a
presenter was criticised for her use of Te Reo. I mean, I
think we’ve moved beyond that. You know, it a beautiful
language.

Yeah, that was our weather
presenter.

Yeah. Yeah. And of course, you
know, I mean, I just think that it’s our generation that
are a bit ignorant of that, because young people, it’s
very normalised for them. It’s part of their everyday
life.

So there’s racism that still exists around
the use of Te Reo, you think?

I’d not
necessarily call it racism, but I think there is a
reluctance, really. You know, the minute someone starts
mentioning whether Te Reo should be compulsory in schools,
well, you know, lots of people raise their arms. And I think
being bilingual would be a real added advantage to our young
people.

So do you think it should be compulsory in
school?

I do. I do.

OK. I’m
wondering, Auckland – there’s been a lot of talk about
Auckland becoming racially segregated. Do you think the
equivalent of suburban apartheid in this
city?

No, I don’t think we
do.

Why do you say that?

Well, it
isn’t something that’s been on the radar for me in my
role, but, I mean, we need to be very careful that it
doesn’t happen. You know, as the numbers increase and many
different cultures come to live, and particularly in
Auckland, we need to be prepared and plan to ensure that
that’s not going to happen.

OK. I want to talk
about events overseas that are possibly having an impact on
us here at home. We’re seeing the rise of Islamic State
and the attention that it’s getting. As a result of that,
are you seeing an increase of Islamophobia
here?

Anecdotally. Anecdotally, I’m told
that every time there’s been an attack or an event happens
around the world, and that’s the same for the Jewish
communities as it is for the Muslim, we hear stories,
particularly of racial abuse against women and children in
the communities. You know, there haven’t been any formal
complaints, and so we can’t always rely on anecdotal
evidence, but we know that it happens.

OK. Well,
you’ve always been an advocate of people talking at a
grass-roots level. And in fact, you’ve quoted the UN in
terms of that, saying it’s best practice to talk to the
community. When The Nation spoke to the president of the
Islamic Associations, Anwar Ghani, he says the prime
minister still hasn’t met with him to talk about some of
these issues, and he described the level of engagement as
poor. Is that good enough, that the prime minister hasn’t
met with him?

No, it’s not good enough.
It’s not good enough. And, you know, my heart goes out to
Dr Ghani, because whenever there is an issue, he is the
person that’s called on to make the statements and to
defend the position of Muslims living in New Zealand, and
that’s incredibly hard and incredibly difficult. You know,
he has to continuously say that Muslim New Zealanders, you
know, live here in peace and want that as much as anyone
else. What I’m saying is that, you know, it sounds
simplistic, doesn’t it, but that’s the way that the
commission actually mediates and resolves is to actually get
the people round the table and talk about it. So if there
are issues, you know, you can’t sit on the sidelines and
make the rules for other players who are in the middle. And
these are the communities that are most affected. You know,
so the government has to protect all New Zealanders. You
know, that’s their priority. But all New Zealanders are
Muslim New Zealanders as well.

So the government has
to engage. Have you asked the prime
minister?

Yes, I’ve asked the prime
minister. You know, in our submission, you know, around the
foreign fighters and counterterrorism, the request was for
the prime minister or senior officials from the department
office to go and speak to the community. I’m not sure, but
I believe that Chris Finlayson has met with Dr
Ghani.

But has the prime minister spoken to you
directly and explained why he’s not willing to go and see
Anwar Ghani?

I don’t know. I don’t
think the prime minister feels he has to respond to the race
relations commissioner, but, you know, this is really
important.

Why not? That’s your job, isn’t
it?

It is my job.

So why
shouldn’t he respond to you? Do you think he owes you an
explanation?

He doesn’t owe me an
explanation; he owes the Muslim community an
explanation.

Do you think that war and New
Zealand’s participation in the war overseas is going to
hurt race relations here in New Zealand?

I
think it’s not going to make my job any easier. I don’t
think it’s necessarily about, you know, deploying to Iraq.
I think what’s really important is that we understand and
stand by Muslim New Zealanders, because this is going to be
really difficult for them.

But you’ve said in the
past that if we’re spending money on the SIS, it might be
a better idea to put money into youth here that are
disaffected. Would you like to see some of that resource
going into help?

That’s also been a
recommendation. And there’s some great relationships and
some agencies doing some wonderful things. The New Zealand
police work really really closely with these communities. So
if there are issues in these communities, let’s understand
what they are and put the investment in that. You know,
it’s a small amount in investment, and we need to actually
do that. You know, this is uncharted territory for New
Zealand. We don’t want to make it like a Hollywood movie,
but we actually need to go in there and discuss the issues
with the communities that matter. I mean, it’s not
different if I was having trouble with my children. You
know, if my children were in strife, I’d want some help
from somewhere.

Just before we go, quickly, when was
the last time you heard about keys being snatched from a
European-looking driver?

Ooh, I don’t
know.

Does it worry you?

No, I
didn’t comment on that, cos that’s not a race-relations
issue; that’s a safety issue. You know, and I haven’t
actually followed that. I was asked to comment, and I
didn’t because we don’t want to make everything into a
race-relations issue. I think that’s a tourism issue. I
don’t know.

But that’s the point of that
question, isn’t it? You can’t name a time where we’ve
heard about people snatching keys from European-looking
drivers, only from Asian drivers, it seems, and
foreigners.

Well, I thought I heard the
other day there was a German driver that was stopped and
apprehended. Look, I’ m sorry, I can’t answer those
questions, but you’re right. You know, we shouldn’t
become vigilantes that take it upon ourselves to take keys
from anybody, regardless of who they are.

All right.
Thank you, Dame Susan, for joining us this morning. Much
appreciated.

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