Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

and I the whole humanity. except my best friends. But that is only because I see in their face a light which I would not dare to turn off. Because they give meaning to my life.

Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

off topic: regarding the cool Christian city. I wonder if the reason we (greeks) lost the city to turks, is because of his sins (maybe he wasn't being honest when he built it), or because we greeks are not that much of murderous to actually demand our city. Funny thing is, his city is 1 hour and a 1/2 from the city I grew up. However, I don't feel any hatred for him. He did not do anything to me personally, so I cannot condemn him for something. I also don't feel any hatred towards the turks, although they enslaved my copatriots.

I sin a lot. Way more than I care to admit. I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with. I do judge others often, which is sinful. I am often disrespectful to others. There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second. I don't kill people. I don't cheat on my spouse. I don't command military troops to kill others. I do not rape. I do not rob banks. I do not assault people.

By your own admission and according to God Himself, you're a murderer and fit for the fires of Hell.

Matthew 5:21-26

I don't see the scriptures as you do.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

It says I am in danger of judgment, because I do get angry sometimes by my own admission.I do not see where it says that those who are angry are guilty of murder.

21 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee;

24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.

25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Also, here is 1 John 3:15, which explains why he is "like a murderer."

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himself.

Actually you didn't read them.

It does not call those who are angry a murderer.

You can also be angry at people and NOT hate them.

I get angry with my children sometimes, and i do not hate them at all. Not even for a moment.

Technically we are all murderers if Jesus said that when we harbor angry thoughts about someone, we have murdered them. I've probably murdered my entire family several times over, my friends when they bother me, random people at the store who tick me off, teachers, even my own fellow parishioners sometimes.

I hate this. Now God practically convicts us of thought crimes. It's not fair. God's burden is too hard, and just because some guy legalizes Christianity and builds a cool Christian city, he automatically gets a free pass for all his sins.

Where does he say this?

He talked about 'he that hateth', not just angry.

If it is ANGER that is murder, then Jesus did so in the Temple...

But it's not. He talked about HATE. Two very different things.

If your parents are angry with you, they do not HATE you. You may seriously dislike somebody at school, but you may not HATE them. Even if you have said "I hate you" to somebody, it may have been in anger, but not hatred.

I think this needs to be very well defined. People say dumb stuff when they are angry, still accountable, but different than hatred.

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed. he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed. he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Are you saying you know better than him?

No. But I am wondering why he thinks he knows better than everyone else.

St. John Chrysostom can cause me to become depressed pretty fast. He is always so condemning, blunt and to-the-point in his writings that it feels like he is directly calling me out on my sinfulness. My patron though doesn't cause me to become depressed when I read his works, but rather I become more so inspired.

Agreed. he gives me the impression that when he is condemning, he seems to forget his own sinfullness, and calls everyone else out on theirs.

Are you saying you know better than him?

No. But I am wondering why he thinks he knows better than everyone else.

Well, because the church decided he does? He is a Holy Father, "Great Hierarch". One of the most revered. It has been decided the holy spirit worked through him. So it is not our authority to question him, because then we would be questioning the holy fathers. It cannot be made much more simple.

You guys don't know about your Saint.He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH. Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize. A MONSTER. If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints. LOTS of them that are wonderful role models. This guy does not compare. He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others. Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon. No comparison with St. Catherine. No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them). He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare. Deathbed confession is great. Deathbed baptism is great. A saint? Sorry, can't agree.

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins... I'm not perfect. Can I say his sins are worse than mine? Absolutely.I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God. I don't say that in boast or pride. But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign? His own wife? His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon. No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit. Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins. In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison. It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic. I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins. We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them. Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth. It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second. I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that. It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot. Way more than I care to admit. I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with. I do judge others often, which is sinful. I am often disrespectful to others. There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second. I don't kill people. I don't cheat on my spouse. I don't command military troops to kill others. I do not rape. I do not rob banks. I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine. I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well. I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic. I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children. We have a farm, animals etc.

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin? This is meant without boast.

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood? The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine. He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea. Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good. Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him. Great. But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole. Because that man was an excellent Christian. A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born

Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.

Abortion? You could call it that, but more along the lines of execution maybe? Is it that much different then St. Constantine, on a personal level then I really hope he is numbered among the saints, he is a example of repentance for me.

St. Constantine also discouraged the pagan practice of abortion and the exposure of infants (abandonment) by increasing money and food given to families to help them support their children. I'm pretty sure I read that in Treadgold's History of Byzantine State.

So, only God knows how many lives he saved by this one decision he made. He also made other decisions regarding temple prostitution, which involved children, if I remember correctly.

And if people want to be upset with other people whose lives they find difficult to understand, whose burdens only God fully understands, and from which they've been mercifully spared, they could just as easily be upset with St. Eirini the Empress, who had her own son's eyes put out.

Being royalty evidently has a special set of challenges that few can imagine.

Honestly, she kind of scares me a little bit, and even more when I was gifted her icon by one of the family members of one of our yia yia's who had fallen asleep. It was from her icon corner, though St. Eirini the Empress isn't my particular patron saint. Her icon is right beside me as I type, and yia yia's photo is right behind me. St. Eirini was involved in ending the iconoclast heresy.

I think you've just helped me open a window of understanding after years of living with this icon. Thank God and thank you.

Lord have mercy on us.

Edit: parallel transliteration of spelling of Eirini

« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 04:32:50 PM by Irini »

Logged

A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

If Hitler turned out to be the Prodigal son... If he repented for his sins. If he truly was sorry at the core of his soul and wanted forgiveness.... Then he deserves forgiveness. I have NO problem with that.

If Constantine did the same thing, and was truly sorry... Then absolutely, he deserves forgiveness.

However, this is NOT saying he should be made a SAINT.

On the murder of Crispus and Fausta:

Quote

When Constantine the Great was Caesar in the West, Rome proclaimed the cruel, anti-Christian, Maxentius, as emperor, who wishing to cover his back in the west, since he feared Constantine, forced him to divorce his wife, Minervina and marry Fausta, a very ambitious and cunning woman who was also Maxentius’ sister, in order to control him. When she saw Constantine’s eldest son, Crispus, distinguishing himself in battles and being groomed for the succession, she wanted to destroy him at all costs, in order to promote her own three sons to positions of power. So she slandered Crispus by saying that he had tried to rape her and kill his father in order to seize power, like a new Absalom. Unfortunately, Fausta’s plot was so convincing and her lies so persuasive that Constantine and the generals fell into the demonic trap. And they allowed Crispus to be put to death, in accordance with the law. When the queen mother, (Saint) Helen, who was many miles away, learned what had happened she rebuked her son severely for his decision. Constantine instituted exhaustive enquiries, from which it became clear that he was the victim of a criminal conspiracy on the part of his wife, Fausta, and her supporters. So he ordered that she, too, be put to death. These two murders of people of his own family greatly distressed Constantine, who regretted them bitterly to the end of his days and sought God’s forgiveness. And in order to show his repentance publicly he had a statue erected to Crispus, with the inscription “To my much-wronged son”.

Chapter 61. His Sickness at Helenopolis, and Prayers respecting his Baptism.

At first he experienced some slight bodily indisposition, which was soon followed by positive disease. In consequence of this he visited the hot baths of his own city; and thence proceeded to that which bore the name of his mother. Here he passed some time in the church of the martyrs, and offered up supplications and prayers to God. Being at length convinced that his life was drawing to a close, he felt the time had come at which he should seek purification from sins of his past career, firmly believing that whatever errors he had committed as a mortal man, his soul would be purified from them through the efficacy of the mystical words and the salutary waters of baptism. Impressed with these thoughts, he poured forth his supplications and confessions to God, kneeling on the pavement in the church itself, in which he also now for the first time received the imposition of hands with prayer. After this he proceeded as far as the suburbs of Nicomedia, and there, having summoned the bishops to meet him, addressed them in the following words.

Chapter 62. Constantine's Appeal to the Bishops, requesting them to confer upon him the Rite of Baptism.

"The time is arrived which I have long hoped for, with an earnest desire and prayer that I might obtain the salvation of God. The hour has come in which I too may have the blessing of that seal which confers immortality; the hour in which I may receive the seal of salvation. I had thought to do this in the waters of the river Jordan, wherein our Saviour, for our example, is recorded to have been baptized: but God, who knows what is expedient for us, is pleased that I should receive this blessing here. Be it so, then, without delay: for should it be his will who is Lord of life and death, that my existence here should be prolonged, and should I be destined henceforth to associate with the people of God, and unite with them in prayer as a member of his Church, I will prescribe to myself from this time such a course of life as befits his service." After he had thus spoken, the prelates performed the sacred ceremonies in the usual manner, and, having given him the necessary instructions, made him a partaker of the mystic ordinance. Thus was Constantine the first of all sovereigns who was regenerated and perfected in a church dedicated to the martyrs of Christ; thus gifted with the Divine seal of baptism, he rejoiced in spirit, was renewed, and filled with heavenly light: his soul was gladdened by reason of the fervency of his faith, and astonished at the manifestation of the power of God. At the conclusion of the ceremony he arrayed himself in shining imperial vestments, brilliant as the light, and reclined on a couch of the purest white, refusing to clothe himself with the purple any more.

Chapter 63. How after his Baptism he rendered Thanks to God.

He then lifted his voice and poured forth a strain of thanksgiving to God; after which he added these words. "Now I know that I am truly blessed: now I feel assured that I am accounted worthy of immortality, and am made a partaker of Divine light." He further expressed his compassion for the unhappy condition of those who were strangers to such blessings as he enjoyed: and when the tribunes and generals of his army appeared in his presence with lamentations and tears at the prospect of their bereavement, and with prayers that his days might yet be prolonged, he assured them in reply that he was now in possession of true life; that none but himself could know the value of the blessings he had received; so that he was anxious rather to hasten than to defer his departure to God. He then proceeded to complete the needful arrangement of his affairs, bequeathing an annual donation to the Roman inhabitants of his imperial city; apportioning the inheritance of the empire, like a patrimonial estate, among his own children; in short, making every disposition according to his own pleasure.

Chapter 64. Constantine's Death at Noon on the Feast of Pentecost.

All these events occurred during a most important festival, I mean the august and holy solemnity of Pentecost, which is distinguished by a period of seven weeks, and sealed with that one day on which the holy Scriptures attest, the ascension of our common Saviour into heaven, and the descent of the Holy Spirit among men. In the course of this feast the emperor received the privileges I have described; and on the last day of all, which one might justly call the feast of feasts, he was removed about mid-day to the presence of his God, leaving his mortal remains to his fellow mortals, and carrying into fellowship with God that part of his being which was capable of understanding and loving him. Such was the close of Constantine's mortal life.

You guys don't know about your Saint.He killed his wife & son AFTER Nicea...Unless you want to claim he wasn't converted pre-Nicea.

He also murdered 100,000+ by imperialism after Nicea.

He was **baptized** on his death bed, not converted.

Regeneration..... pfft. Let's go pull a Hitler and get Baptized by a "master", that'll do it.

This is a perfect reason that draws people away from FAITH. Here is a MONSTER that you people legitimize. A MONSTER. If you don't have a wife or child, you have no right to comment on the audacity of him executing them.

Someone is forgetting about the prodigal son.

Or St. Dismas.

I'm sure Crispas and Fausta believe that a man who squandered his inheritance, lived in drunkeness, etc., and returning to father, would not be comparable to the man who killed them, along with hundreds of thousands of others...

Look, there are MANY other wonderful saints. LOTS of them that are wonderful role models. This guy does not compare. He merely stopped persecuting those he persecuted.... Then he holds Nicea, then kills his wife, child, and 100,000+ others. Then deathbed baptism, and he's a saint.

No comparison with St. Tikhon. No comparison with St. Catherine. No comparison with St. Jude, St. Nicholas (all of them), St. Basil (all of them). He lived a horribly wicked life full of blood and warfare. Deathbed confession is great. Deathbed baptism is great. A saint? Sorry, can't agree.

So yes, I will state that I feel like a good Christian when I read of St. Nicholas.

I teach my children about hymns, Christ, Moses, the commandments, apostles... I don't murder them.I pray with my wife, love her, pray for her, and she me ... I don't murder her.I try to love my enemies, and I've never killed anybody.... Let alone hundreds of thousands of people.

No I never legalized Christianity, nor did I persecute it at the sword.My mom didn't find the cross either - but she loves God and her family.

Now, if we get into sins... I'm not perfect. Can I say his sins are worse than mine? Absolutely.I'm still a sinner, and I do fall on my face before God. I don't say that in boast or pride. But come on people 100,000+ DEAD on his behalf (not including his own troops) in 1 campaign? His own wife? His own child?

Compare him with St. Tikhon. No comparison.

I feel depressed when reading fine examples of other saints because I know I should do better as them.

Can we really say that our sins are less worse than anothers? This is an honest question not a smart ass one, can I legitimately see, hear or read about an individual and say to myself "their sins are worse then mine" and not damage myself spiritually?

ABSOLUTELY!

This is where I butt heads with Orthodoxy a bit. Orthodoxy teaches one a deep reflection into their own sins. In a sense, that you see your own sins so much that the sins of others are not in comparison. It feels more of a "self beat down" more than logic. I do agree, that we should deeply reflect in our own sins. We should see our sins and absolutely seek repentance for them. Even the other day I made a point on the faith issues section that the Orthodox teach of their sins being greater than the sands of the Earth. It amounted to sinning over 3 billion times a second. I'm not going to sit here and beat myself down with that. It makes a person very weak to beat themselves down like that, perfect for indoctrination and subservience.

I sin a lot. Way more than I care to admit. I am quick to anger sometimes, which I struggle with. I do judge others often, which is sinful. I am often disrespectful to others. There are many things...

But I don't sin 3 billion times a second. I don't kill people. I don't cheat on my spouse. I don't command military troops to kill others. I do not rape. I do not rob banks. I do not assault people.

YES, I believe Adolf Hitler's sins are worse than mine. I believe Constantine's were worse than mine as well. I believe that Stalin, Mao, both responsible for the deaths of millions, their sins were greater.

There is a point where self inflicted delusional thinking whipping yourself with your own sins defies logic. I'm just a parent who is loyal to my wife, raising children. We have a farm, animals etc.

Am I really suppose to sit here and believe that I am worse than Hitler, Constantine, Mao, or Stalin? This is meant without boast.

Even if you lust, cheat, steal, rob, assault, have pride, sloth, or have even killed.... Did you blow away lots of little children in cold blood? The answer is NO.

This applies to Constantine. He was responsible for the death of his own child, wife, and hundreds of thousands of people.

In context to this thread, THAT'S why I feel like a "better Christian" when I read about his ways, life, even after Nicea. Because if he can get sainted, I feel pretty good. Okay, so he was baptized on his death bed, absolving him. Great. But Sainted???

When I read about St. Tikhon, then I crawl back into a hole. Because that man was an excellent Christian. A role model which I can't compare to in faith & dedication.

So really it all depends on what I read.

I understand, I myself personally have killed my own child so I can not claim to be different then St. Constantine, but I do understand were you come from.

but why did you kill your own child? may god give him/her rest.

Cuz I was self centered and paid to have my child killed before it was born

Abortion? let's hope that at least the consequences are not "sterilization". If that is what it is you're doomed for life. But then again. Miracles happen daily. Not because we deserve them. They happen because God's true nature deserves to be somehow expressed. As someone said once. Miracles don't happen because we deserve them. Because God doesn't give us what we deserve. He only gives us what he wants us to have.

Abortion? You could call it that, but more along the lines of execution maybe? Is it that much different then St. Constantine, on a personal level then I really hope he is numbered among the saints, he is a example of repentance for me.

St. Constantine also discouraged the pagan practice of abortion and the exposure of infants (abandonment) by increasing money and food given to families to help them support their children. I'm pretty sure I read that in Treadgold's History of Byzantine State.

So, only God knows how many lives he saved by this one decision he made. He also made other decisions regarding temple prostitution, which involved children, if I remember correctly.

And if people want to be upset with other people whose lives they find difficult to understand, whose burdens only God fully understands, and from which they've been mercifully spared, they could just as easily be upset with St. Eirini the Empress, who had her own son's eyes put out.

Being royalty evidently has a special set of challenges that few can imagine.

Honestly, she kind of scares me a little bit, and even more when I was gifted her icon by one of the family members of one of our yia yia's who had fallen asleep. It was from her icon corner, though St. Eirini the Empress isn't my particular patron saint. Her icon is right beside me as I type, and yia yia's photo is right behind me. St. Eirini was involved in ending the iconoclast heresy.

I think you've just helped me open a window of understanding after years of living with this icon. Thank God and thank you.

Lord have mercy on us.

Edit: parallel transliteration of spelling of Eirini

Correction to my post (not that anyone cares or is actually read my post, but just in case). Empress Irene (Irene of Athens) was never canonized as a saint by the Orthodox Church, but Theodore the Studite referred to her as a saint for her restoration of icons and monasteries according to OrthodoxWiki. It's a common misconception that she was canonized, probably propagated by the West based on writings by the Bollandists.