GW Showcases new Eldar: Ulthwe, Iyanden, Saim-Hann & Alaitoc!

Over at the Warhammer-community site, they have shown two of the new Eldar sub-factions: Aliatoc, Saim-Hann, Biel Tan, Ulthwe and Iyanden! What do you all think about them?

And now, Alaitoc! These are looking really good! Oh, and the sweet, sweet irony of the Eldar players saying Astra militarum were too good because of Gringing Advance….oh yes, it is too sweet! But, enjoy those much improved hover tanks! They are nasty.

Saim-Hann has been revealed and they certainly look to emulate their backstory with high speed and aggressive tactics!

If you missed using your Jet Bikes, well, it looks like they’re back baby! The Fire and Fade stratagem will also be quite popular as it allows you to fire on a target and then move behind cover, out of range of a charge, etc.

Biel-Tan is up, next! They look great, and as a die-hard Avatar fan that stratagem looks amazing to me.

And, as a massive fan of Dire Avengers, I am also drawn to that Swordwind ability to natively re-roll 1’s to hit with Shuriken weapons….

The first up on showcase was Iyanden, which I was stoked about as I have been playing a Wraith army myself, lately.

The army features lots of cool ways to field and buff your Wraith units. From their “Chapter Tactics” down through their Stratagem, it is all about buffing the Wraith constructs. I dig that as it gives the army a very defined play style and unique buffs that reflect the background.

Next up is Ulthwe! Ulthwe also seems to have a very defined set of buffs centered around their famed Black Guardians.

What do you think of the Eldar suite of abilities so far with what little clues that we have?

I know I have many much excite for the new codex, especially regarding the changes to Wraithguard/Iyanden :). I just wish the codex was out in time for the socal open! Curious to see what Biel Tan gets-you read it here first-Striking Scorpions will be the eldar Khorne Berserkers…

It sickens me that Eldar (and to a lesser extent Guard) get army-wide special rules while in the power armor world only infantry, bikers and dreads benefit from chapter tactics. As if being a power armor player in a horde world wasn’t bad enough. Really kills enthusiasm tbh.

You could make an argument that the free “spirit stones” that the Ulthwe ability gives is actually better for vehicles. Iyanden helps with the degrading stat line, but an Ulthwe unit with 12 wounds will still be alive on 2 wounds when the Iyanden unit is dead, on average rolls. Assuming, of course, that your wraith lord, for example, doesn’t go from say 5 wounds to -2 after one volley of fire.

In that instance, though, the Ulthwe vehicle is almost as good as dead. That would leave them in their final profile which is a BS of 5+ and half the movement as normal. Does it keep them alive? Sure. But at a drastically less effective profile.

On the flipside, an Iyanden vehicle with 12 wounds works perfectly well all the way down until it has 3 wounds left and only hits that final profile if it’s at 1 wound. So it might die completely a bit earlier but it’s much more likely to keep fighting at full strength until then.

Keep in mind that the Ulthwe vehicle’s profile will not degrade as quickly as you might assume, since the 6+++ will stop wounds against it that the Iyanden vehicle would have to just take.

However, I think for vehicles that have the option of taking Spirit Stones, Ulthwe is going to be lackluster. 10pts is not a high price to pay for the extra surivability. On the other hand, many units will benefit from it that couldn’t use Stones- Wraithlords/guard, Wraithknights, Crimson Hunters, etc. For those units, Ulthwe has some potential value.

I agree. I think, in the end, it’s a bit of a wash. The two options are *roughly* equal. The difference will be the types of units you want to use. Wraithlords might be better with Ulthwe for survivability, since they can’t take spirit stones (unless that’s being added in). However, Iyanden has at least one strategem that can benefit the wraithlords.

I play Iyanden, but I don’t like bright yellow and bright blue. So I went with bone and some black. Which fortunately is the same colors as Ulthwe, only they use black predominantly. So I should be good either way.

If you want to stack a 6+ FNP on vehicles (with Spirit Stones and the Yncarne 6+ bubble) then Ulthwe is not that good. I’d rather take Iyanden for the better degrading mechanic and be able to have that double 6+.

I’m playing a wraith army, too. I love wraith units! Stoked about using my wraith lords for competitive as well as casual play now. I’d love to use my wraith blades too, but they’re so expensive. I was hoping they’d have a price drop.

Naturally, with 3 units of wraith guard with scythes, I run them competitively as Ynarri.

It looks like Eldar troop choices have gotten a lot better. Iyanden guardians with celestial shield stratagems look to be very durable. Also cheaper avengers is always nice. Better troops means more command points. Real excited here to build some new lists.

2 units I have always loved for Eldar are striking scorpions and Avatar. I know alot of people see this faction as weak already, but could they be good in small point games (~1000) where the Avatar coming back to life might be a big deal?

Come on Reese, your not giving us a warm and fuzzy feeling about this release. None of these rules are over the top that have been announced. But we all know you use to love your mighty FootDar Reese, how do you feel that army will be looking after the book drops, not specifics of course, don’t want you getting into trouble. But COME ON give us some hints is the eldar book going to be as good as Guard ( not sure that is possible but we can dream )

Strategems and CPs are not balanced. Of that I’m certain. 3CP to resurrect the Avatar after he dies in the Fight Phase?! Who loses him in the Fight Phase? Most Eldar armies will have 6 CP or less. I don’t get it.

That’s a good way to look at it. I notice whenever someone gets some sort of re-roll hits of 1 rule everyone complains “[insert HQ here] already does that, it’s useless!”

But unless you’re playing a tiny ball of an army, that’s not always the case. There are only so many HQs to go around and it can get rather expensive to take multiple to keep their buff auras up in multiple places on the board. The ability to just universally get these re-rolls on any shruiken weapon without needing an HQ babysitter is pretty nice.

Reece I think you answer your own question about why the codex seems bland “Some of them are essentially identical abilities”. Being essentially the same makes them non-unique and hence a little bland. I think they are thematic and can certainly be powerful, but they do come off a bit bland.

Part of that is that it seems like GW is baking in army archetypes into each codex. There’s the super mobile one, the durable one, the hard to hit at long range one, etc. Just a bit of a change in design philosophy. Previously the archetypes were army specific. Eldar were mobile. Guard drowned you in units. Now you get a lot more variety within each army. Which is certainly great for building an army. But it might lead to less variety as everyone flocks to the -1 to hit armies and we get same “doesn’t degrade as fast” rule under 12 different names, one for each army.

What I mean by bland is that they feel tacked on. Following the AM Codex is a hard act to follow. There wasn’t any real depth to the abilities. They may be powerful but they hardly feel thematic and unique for an army as old and as important as Eldar.
I was expecting seer council and bigger phoenix warriors and more depth to aspects.
Instead, it’s mostly guardian buffs and generic buffs.
I’m not claiming they aren’t good or useful, I was just expecting AM thought and flavor.

Just remember though, you are only seeing a sliver of things. As always with Eldar, the real power of the army is in their units, that is where they have all of their crazy abilities and unique flavor. I feel the Craftworld abilities are pretty cool, personally, and do a good job of representing the backstory (which is the point of them, not for pure power on the tabletop as some may think) and are quite good.

Once you have the dex in hand I think you will be very happy. I know I sure am!

It looks that way. Embarking just says you have to end your move within 3″ of a transport and you can do it. Says nothing about that having to occur in the movement phase or any other restrictions like that.

I disagree strongly. Dark Elves get to fire all heavy weapons as assault on vehicles. Astra Militarum have the ability to fire vehicles twice in the shooting phase if they’ve moved less than half base speed.

You are fooling yourself if you think that the Craftworlds are at all near the level of any semi-competitive faction. This is VERY underwhelming.

I think you might be conflating the Leman Russ inherent ability with a regiment trait. All Leman Russ vehicles can fire twice if they move under half, a huge boost from the Index! And Regiment independent*.

*(unless I’m totally missing something in my AM Codex)

There is a misconception because the way GW teased one of the regiments it did look like only they received that ability. Interestingly, the Eldar preview does the same thing with psychic powers, I’m not sure if the powers above are unique to a Craftworld or available to any.

You say this without seeing the new rules for the units themselves. Of course it’s going to seem bland with the index rules, that’s why they’re updating them in the codex like they have with every other codex.

I think there are some fair points of contention here, on several levels.

For one, there are more rules for IG regiments than Eldar Craftworlds. That’s fewer options for the player in general, which is going to feel like a weaker choice overall. Likewise, SM and CSM got significantly more options for their subfactions than Eldar do.

For two, the IG regiments all for a two-part bonus AND an extra order, in addition to the stratagem that is standard for all such subfactions. While this is more particular to IG (as the other codices did not get such a “bonus” ability), coming right on the heels of them it’s still gonna feel like a slap in the face considering IG is hands down the strongest faction so far.

For three, the abilities previewed so far do not integrate well with their respective Craftworlds’ fluff or other rules. The 6+++ from Ulthwe doesn’t stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones, but similar abilities in other armies have no such limitations. The Saim-Hainn bonus mostly only applies to a narrow subset of units- two units, in fact. Iyanden’s Guardians are better than Ulthwe’s are. And Altaioc… well, basically everyone is gonna pick Altaioc, is the reality of things.

The Eldar abilities aren’t the garbage that some people are claiming they are, but for the most part they aren’t terribly evocative, either. They are functional, but not exciting, and they don’t show a lot of promise of opening up new options the way a lot of folks were hoping for.

(That said, there certainly are things in the previews I feel are well done. The Avatar stratagem is very cool and thematic, Fire and Fade is exactly what a lot of folks were asking for, etc. The key here, I think, is that those abilities FEEL like the way people want Eldar units to play- the Avatar should be an unstoppable melee monster, their shooting units should be slippery and hard to catch, etc. People were expecting the codices to fix a lot of the problems with same-ness that the indices suffered from in places, and another layer of “exactly like the last codex” special rules does not do a lot to alleviate that. But just instantly dismissing everyone’s concerns about things as “the internet always complains” certainly comes off as more than a little rude and superior.)

I will also add that IG have the ability to be allied with a larger number of diverse forces that can shore up a lot of weaknesses, from SM to Knights, Assassins, Space Wolves, to ahem, Gray Knights… Ok, so maybe not all winners…

The IG Codex will potentially become better with every new Imperial release. The Eldar Codex is going to have to stand alone, or in tandem with the more limited utility that Dark Eldar or Harlequins may bring.

Necrons, Orks, and Tau will have it worse, whereas Tyranid/ GSC will actually be enhanced by IG, and in fact may give an entirely new way to run a fun army!

Just a guess, but I think once all the Codexes are out, it will be Imperium or Chaos in and around all the top tables.

Eh, 105pts for a basic squad isn’t that bad, considering they show up anywhere you want on the table and do a mortal wound followed by 20 Bolter shots and a charge attempt. They’re not cheap, but considering how many things they can do, I feel like it’s a reasonable price. The real issue is more one of durability.

C’mon, Reece, you gotta admit- IG are waaaaaaaay more able to take advantage of morale immunity than Eldar are. You can get a full-size unit of Conscripts for about the same price you get a minimum-size unit of Guardians.

This. Maximum of 1 casualty to morale is great when you’re an army that 1) can take huge units and 2) has naturally low leadership.

Not that the trait is BAD per se. It’s just that most Eldar units are taken in groups the size of 5-10 (most of them CANT go above that size even if you want). So the trait isn’t as useful as it is for armies that take 20-30 or more squishy units in a single unit and have to worry about losing a ton of models in one turn.

I’m wondering if some of the unit sizes or point values may change in the Codex… I have heard rumors (salty) about attribute changes, point cost reductions, and unit size increases, but I’ve also heard it said that all of those are BS…

You know, at first I was underwhelmed by the Iyanden trait but looking it over it really seems to be what Iyanden needs. Keeps the Wraithlords/Knights in that 3+ range longer (which is clutch) and the manner in which it benefits the Wave Serpents is icing on the cake. You basically get to ignore the damage chart while other armies would limp along.

Sofar the only trait I feel is underwhelming is Biel Tan-I think it should have been re-roll 1s to wound with Shuriken weapons as well to really be worthwhile or just a flat re-roll 1s since many aspects don’t use shuriken weapons.

Also, to address Ulthwe’s trait and how it doesn’t stack…With Yncarne, you could potentially stack 3 6+ FNP saves and that is probably a bit much for a Wave Serpent…

Honestly, I was hoping for some buff to WG/WL resilience (like a 6+ FNP) but with +1T, I think that satisfies me on that point. Also, the reason the “commissar” buff did not appeal to me (initially) is I usually run Wraithguard in 5 man units so you need to lose 4 before you can possibly fail on a 6 (making the trait moot) and if you take the Avatar or Yncarne, Morale is not an issue. However, I definitely see a use if you take larger WG units and have to deal with any -Ld/Morale penalties and are not in range of an Avatar or Yncarne so that is nice.

If anything, I was hoping for something that let Wraithlords move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty. I was also hoping for Wraithlords to be able to fall back and shoot like WG can but that Feigned Retreat Stratagem takes care of that but doesn’t do much good if you need to use it on multiple units =).

Still, overall the stratagems look solid and I can’t wait to try out the new codex… Just really wished it came out in time for socal open.

Your comments are very concerning, especially for a guy/group that supposedly play tests the game and future codex releases.

The IG are insanely powerful, only getting better than their index and have no real weaknesses. Everything that should be a weakness gets mitigated, be it via commissars for battle shock or Bulgryns tanking wounds for tank commanders, for just a couple of examples.

AM are very good, no doubt, but they are not so overpowering as internet group think implies they are. I was just talking with Andrew Gonyo (who recently won the NOVA Open with his AM) the other day and he feels the army was stronger in the index, and that now he has to play more intelligently to win with the army.

You are free to see things how you want, of course, but there’s nothing to be concerned about, lol.

The other thing you have to understand is that I am talking from a position of knowing the whole picture, so my perspective is different. Seriously, screenshot some of the complaints here including your own, lol, the irony of them will be amazing in short time. And no, I am not laughing at you, but at the situation. And you probably will too, in a short time.

Anyway, you are obviously feeling a bit salty, but hey, I have been there. Just try to stay open and don’t make up your mind about the dex or the meta so soon, all of this is over reaction.

“From a fluff perspective” is the problem, I think. These rules are not matching the fluff that most Eldar players expect. Granted, we haven’t seen the warlord traits and artefacts yet, and that could make a big difference in the fluff perspective.

And 3CP to bring the Avatar back to life but only in the Fight phase is bizarre for an army that will rarely have more than 7CP.

I think I need to see the codex. I was certain that guard was going to be a strong Codex based off of the amount of imperium support they can get, the confirmed costing, and their performance as an index.

I’m just having a harder time understanding exactly how many command points the Eldar will get, and how useful those will be… plus- full disclosure, not as familiar with Eldar full stop

I don’t think they’re going to be having a lot more CP around than previously; while some of the troop choices obviously improved (*coughdireavengerscough*), I don’t feel like it’s enough to really incentivize players to take significant numbers of them compared to other options. Imperial and Chaos armies both have access to cheap, effective slot-filling units; Eldar much less so. I don’t imagine we’ll see a lot of Eldar armies with 10+ CP starting out unless Rangers were significantly revamped or there’s some way to move Windriders/Wraithguard back into the troop slot.

I agree with you AP- with anything I’ve seen or been rumored, it’s going to be hard to spam CP. Unless there is a psychic power, special character, or relic which addresses that issue…

I could be wrong, but I think the kings of CP in this edition will be Nids and IG, both can put together just ridiculously cheap brigades and batallions! But I do feel like CSM and SM both have sufficient options to get enough CP to work… GK… not so much.

Compared to the stand-out AM trait (Catachan and cadia) and ravengard) yes these traits are very average. They are so average to the extent that, if you can’t run a craftworld trait in a ynnari army, I will run ynnari.

Ok, explain this to me please, in detail. Because it doesn’t make sense, at all.

Eldar get: natively have Tallarn ability to Advance and shoot. If playing Iyanden also get the ability to degrade slower on their heavy units like Valhalla AND have the ability to essentially have a Commissar built in….lol. Please explain to me how that is in any way average?

My fellow Eldar players must have just developed an exaggerated sense of entitlement after the heady days of 6th and 7th, lol.

Sure, most commentators have said that the standout AM abilities are catachan and cadia. Tallarn and valhalla are fine but not the most competitive. Neither of those traits are particularly great in index ynnari craftworld armies:

Valhalla:

Degrading: The vehicles that most eldar players are using (outside of forgeworld) are Hemlocks and waveserpents. Hemlocks don’t really degrade. Wave serepents do, but if you are running them optimally (advance all the time, -1 to hit, spirit stones) they are just super tough transports and shooting is a bonus. I really don’t care too much about being in the 2nd, rather than 3rd lowest tier in most instances.

Morale: if you are running proper MSU ynnari you don’t really care about moral checks.

Tallarn/battle focus:

The main units this effects is infantry with assault weapons. Fine if you are playing footdar. Useless if you are mech. How many footdar armies have you seen in top table mech lists? (I haven’t seen any and I follow the scene pretty closely).

The mistake you are making is assuming that traits that are ok (but not the best) for an AM army have therefore the same utility in a ynnari craftworlds army. This is simply not the case because optimal ynnari lists play completely differently with very different unit compositions.

Just make alaitoc ravenguard and these craftworld traits won’t be a complete wash.

Of course not (and that was a joke, thus the lol at the end, haha) but they are good. Eldar gets a lot to be stoked about. I am a long time Eldar player, too.

But like I said, if people want to see the glass half empty, then by all means, go for it. But, I would suggest at the very least waiting for the Dex, everyone is still working with only a partial picture of what they are getting.

One thing to keep in mind, Reece, is that Eldar and IG are equipped with very different weapons. Eldar infantry almost exclusively have Assault and Heavy weapons- the former of which can advance/shoot even without the need for Battle Focus (even if it is at a penalty) and the latter of which doesn’t work with it. IG infantry, on the other hand, have a variety of rapid fire weapons that see a huge upgrade with the trait, especially given their lower Ballistic Skill means that any to-hit penalties are more problematic for them.

Meanwhile, Tallarn vehicles can move and fire with heavy weapons- but Eldar vehicles cannot. So saying that battle Focus is “better than the Tallarn” trait is extremely oversimplifying the matter, especially as Eldar tanks don’t benefit from Battle Focus but Tallarn tanks do gain a benefit.

I agree that we are only getting a very small part of the picture with the spoilers so far. There is likely 4 more psychic powers, and changes to points and unit abilities to see yet, as well as the last trait.

That said, I am still very disappointed with the power level of these traits. I don’t feel like they are comparable to the other factions’ most powerful traits and the previous comments don’t particularly address the substance of my explanation as to why this is so.

This is crazy Reece, why are you not simply admitting that AM are waaaaay more competitive we’re seeing here in the Eldar reveals? Grinding advance, if you move a leman russ less than half it’s total movement it gets to fire it’s turret weapon twice without any penalty. That right there is hands down better than anything the eldar have thus far, not particularly close. Pound them to dust cadian order, re rolls for determining number of shots for leman russ turret weapons, again, much better. Form firing squad mordian order turns rapid fire weapons into sniper rifles that can target characters, hello plasma guns? That’s nuts, and also better. Cadian born soldiers doctrine, re roll 1’s army wide, on shooting, if you don’t move, again better than anything here, shall I go on? OK. Storm troopers tempestus doctrine, if you shoot at half range 6’s net you an extra shot each. You already mentioned tallarn. Volley fire and overlapping fields of fire stratagems etc…These are almost all flat dps multipliers, no shenanigans, no build-arounds, no incremental advantage edges, just straight dps buffs, somewhat similar to all your aspect warriors get bs 2+ from 7th edition, that kind of straight hard dps buff. It is what it is, we can accept it and move on, but sitting here denying it, while laughing at everyone around you for being idiots, is just…confusing…

My goodness, wait for the entire picture before drawing any conclusions, lol. You can comparing things in a codex to fractions of a codex, which is silly. Just hang tight, you will be happy.

And I am laughing but not because I think anyone is an idiot, just because it is an overreaction and objectively, the reveals so far are very comparable to what others have gotten, identical in some cases.

I don’t think going after the play testers is worthwhile. Who knows what the rules were like before they offered feedback. Who knows what feed back was to late for Codex release, but has been updated in Chapter Approved. Who knows what feedback GW just didn’t agree with.

We as the player base just have to accept that Reece and crew, by virtue of having all the Codex’s in some form for sometime now, have a much wider view of the games future meta then we do. As much as I wish my cousin, who is also one of the play testers, would violate some NDA and let me in on this view (which he won’t, that goodie two shoes) I do know that he is thoroughly invested in this hobby and would not bring fourth ideas just to shaft or somehow make an individual army non competitive in the larger meta.

And in the case of the FLG crew, who literally make a living off of selling these products, have absolutely zero reason to do so either.

I’n the end, we just have to wait. Who knows what builds that are popular this month or next, end up getting punched in the nose when a new Codex(s) come out in January. And that change may make previous lists more viable. This release schedule is just to fast to have all this doom and gloom.

And next year when all major factions have their books, might there still be some lackluster options? Sure. But thankfully we have Chapter Approved to look forward to again and again to continue to see changes.

That’s fair, but comments from Reecius, like “haha wait to see” or “haha Eldar have the same ability but AM are OP what?” do not engender confidence in a group of people that helps playtest. Those comments appear to be dismissive and homerish in light of how outstanding the IG codex has turned out to be. And yes, I game IG.

If the comments had started with, yeah AM is powerful but wait to see the whole eldar codex, you’ll be pleased. I know I would have reacted differently.

Haha, lol, etc goes a long way to turn people off that are hoping their (Eldar) codex is worthwhile and competitive.

I would gladly have that beer with you, sir. And sorry if I sounded like a jerk, I honestly didn’t mean to. I forget that when I read things I understand context, you all don’t. It’s not fair of me to poke fun really, as we’re not at the same place in terms of facts, yet.

Those are fair concerns. Like you, I stick a certain playstyle with my Eldar. I prefer Footdar as I find it fun and interesting so I look at the Eldar rules as a player though that lens. others do the same from their own unique perspective.

Indeed, Alaitoc is about a billion times better than anything they teased thus far, Iyanden is pretty good as well. The double fire on fire prisms, combined with the linked fire is very good, and the -1 to hit is excellent as well. Though I do wonder, are either of those things, either separately or combined more powerful than wraithguard soul bursting? Or Yvraine giving dark reapers a free soulburst. Or even fire dragons or shadow spectres, shining spears also, soul bursting, seems like the strongest thing eldar can be doing at the moment. I wonder if we’ll see Ynnari get nerfed. Or if my prediction is wrong and people will abandon ynnari for alaitoc. We’ll have to wait and see.

I think retaining patience for those who don’t have the opportunity to look behind the veil is important. I’m sure it’s taxing to have to tell people to wait all the time, but most of these people who have invested their time and money in their armies lack the luxury of knowing what they do before it happens, as you do.

Very true, very true. I do have a different perspective but it gets frustrating hearing the non-stop complaining that something is too good or too bad when folks don’t have the whole picture and when they are all actually comparable to one another as many of the “chapter tactics” are incidental.

Can’t wait to infiltrate some Wraithblades and a Spiritseer via Webway Strike, Quicken (Warp Time) them to get them closer, and charge using the relic to double their attacks. That’s an Alpha Legion level of scary.

With Dire Avengers and Rangers dropping so much in cost (lots of things are evidently) there are ton of options.

Unless there is an ability to activate twice in the way Ynnari can, I believe many aspects of the Eldar army will simply be better as Ynnari. Keep in mind that you can likely be both Craftworld (for traits and craftworld specific stratagems) and Ynnari at the same time as the two are not mutually exclusive from what I can tell.

Battle Focus + Craftworld trait (i.e. Altaioc, the good one) is at least an actual choice now compared to Strength from Death. Seems like you’re gonna end up with two different builds, a long-range shooting one and a close-in aggressive one.