I think (I see) that Jopi is allready offline, so I like to react on your story.Do you realy think there are no risks involved in placing such an transmitter? (read my earlyer comment on that above)Do you realy think that just ONE gouvernement will replace windmills or factorys or whátever because of migrating birds?

It all is in OUR benefit, nót in the benefit of the birds, we wánt to do it because we cán do it and because we want to satisfy our curiosity, we like to play God and the animals just have to addept on all the terrible things we allready did to them, not the other way around.So, I say NO! not:"so be it" (but I don't think they will listen)

Hello Jasmijntje (and others strongly opposed to these transmitters),

Yes, I do really think that no risks are involved. And yes, I do really think that gouvernments will actually act and try to do what's possible to protect migrating routes, nesting sites and things like that. In fact, just to give you an example: when the use of DDT, a pesticide, was banned in the USA, it was among other things because of data about a declining osprey population. (more about it here for example: http://blog.baybackpack.com/?p=1355)

In our own country, the Netherlands, the protection of what's left of nature stands very strong, and pieces of land are given back to nature again, thus creating new and more opportunities for wildlife. National parks are connected with wildlife corridors, nesting sites are protected, and so on, and so forth. So yes, gouvernments do listen. At least in our part of the world.

All that isn't done for our benefit, but for the benefit of nature, in this case the benefit of ospreys. We humans have in the past (and still do unfortunately) made a mess of nature, destroyed a lot of it, but the tide is turning. More and more people are aware of what we've done in the past and want to make up for that as much and as good as possible. Not because we like "to play god", but because we're becoming aware of our -often very negative- role in the ecosystem. In order to be able to restore as much of the damage done by humans, we simply need exact data about nature, about these fantastic ospreys in this case, so we can protect them as good as we can and offer them the best possibilities to breed and to secure next generations of ospreys. One of the things we need more data on, is their migration. Where do they go? Where do they rest? Where do they forage? How do human structures affect migrating ospreys? Where is it safe for them to stay, and where not? And probably many other questions too.When we know more about that, we can contribute and take action to improve their chances of survival and reproduction.

This isn't done to torture individual birds or so, but this is on the contrary done to secure a future for the entire species, so all ospreys can benefit from it.The birds themselves aren't bothered by it. Transmitters have been attached to a huge number of wild animals before and have given us lots of information. Urmas and friends, who love these birds just as much as we do, if not more (it takes a special breed of people to be committed to a good case like theirs, and I admire them a lot for their work ), would never do anything which would harm the birds in any way. I'm 110% convinced about that.

I hope you'll understand why this is a good thing after all, when you consider the whole pcture, eventhough a transmitter isn't a pretty sight. Their rings aren't a pretty sight either, but also rings give a lot of valuable information about migrating birds. It all helps us to understand, and when we understand we can help them.

We know where they (osprey) go for winter but we won't stop stupid hunters to shoot them. ...Such people do harm not only for ospreys but animal as well as all live nature. Look at the people who are so cruel with their pets: dogs, cats, farm animals. We know everything about dogs or cats but we can't prevent them from being beaten, brutally killed. So I don't want to be involved in anything what wild nature makes upset... Instead of putting transmitters lets look around and be brave to say a word when we see somebody putting trash in the fields, forrest or harming animals or pets...

Hello Gitana,that's not exactly true. It's a long road to persuade (illegal) hunters not to kill animals, but there are quite a lot examples where steadily information changed things. Not anytime and not anywhere, but it happens.To make "wild nature upset" it is enough to lead our usual life: go by car or bus, buy things, that are delivered over far distances, and so on. I state that everybody here directly or indirectly influences the wild. But there are some ways to decrease this influence. And one of them is research an information.

A quick question.....where will these youngsters migrate to? And is there a lot known (posted info somewhere????) as to the conditions where they will spend their winter season? Wooded, forrested area?......Seaside area???????....How has the weather been this year in their targeted migratory area (s)? Dry, rainy? Does anyone know where I can get some information? Thank you.

Reading back all the comments pro and contra I just like to say a few things:

it is not that I am opposing against scientific projects as such, I am opposing against "scientific projects" at random.Not long before every bird has a transmitter so WE would know where it is going and for how long, etc. etc.

More useful an nicer to our birds would be if there is some kind of coördination between countries and better still worldwide to prevent the birds from harm than becoming a jungle of antenna's instead."Is an osprey 25 kilometers North, South, West or East from this nest migrating to a different place, in a different way, than our Osprey's?"

And the effect?We do not even prevent our own children against pollution, etc, so what measures do we expect from governements which harm an Osprey?????Or are we going to relocate windmills, factories etc???This is not scientific, this looks like a prestige project , and I am very disappointed. Never would have expected Urmas wanting to be part of this.

Reading back all the comments pro and contra I just like to say a few things:

it is not that I am opposing against scientific projects as such, I am opposing against "scientific projects" at random.Not long before every bird has a transmitter so WE would know where it is going and for how long, etc. etc.

More useful an nicer to our birds would be if there is some kind of coördination between countries and better still worldwide to prevent the birds from harm than becoming a jungle of antenna's instead."Is an osprey 25 kilometers North, South, West or East from this nest migrating to a different place, in a different way, than our Osprey's?"

And the effect?We do not even prevent our own children against pollution, etc, so what measures do we expect from governements which harm an Osprey?????Or are we going to relocate windmills, factories etc???This is not scientific, this looks like a prestige project , and I am very disappointed. Never would have expected Urmas wanting to be part of this.

I think you are judging very hard. On what grounds can you decide that this is not scientific? Do you have all the facts? And on what grounds do you build your opinion about Urmas (why pointing at just him, they are a group)? I'm personally just a forum member, reading other members thoughts about those lovely birds. The Eagle Club has made it possible for us to follow this osprey family by spending a great amount of time and money (some of it from personal budget from what I understand) to rig a web cam, keep it connected to the internet 24/7 and letting us all watch.

Like some other members you say: More uesful woukld be... and suggest other things to do for the wild life. Well, then. Why don't you star a forum, begin to raise money and start a project your self? Instead of judging those who actually DO something. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I think you judge to hard on to little facts. For instance: How to "coördination between countries" if you don't know which countries the osprey passes on their way?

Personally I trust The Eagle Club fully (I prefere to see them as a dedicated group and not point out specific individs) and I'm sure that these good ornitologs wouldn't harm any animals.

Edit: I agree with will(y) - this discusson should preferably be held in another thread.

_________________If you would like to support the Eagle Club, the bank account details are:

A quick question.....where will these youngsters migrate to? And is there a lot known (posted info somewhere????) as to the conditions where they will spend their winter season? Wooded, forrested area?......Seaside area???????....How has the weather been this year in their targeted migratory area (s)? Dry, rainy? Does anyone know where I can get some information? Thank you.

Reading back all the comments pro and contra I just like to say a few things:

it is not that I am opposing against scientific projects as such, I am opposing against "scientific projects" at random.Not long before every bird has a transmitter so WE would know where it is going and for how long, etc. etc.

More useful an nicer to our birds would be if there is some kind of coördination between countries and better still worldwide to prevent the birds from harm than becoming a jungle of antenna's instead."Is an osprey 25 kilometers North, South, West or East from this nest migrating to a different place, in a different way, than our Osprey's?"

And the effect?We do not even prevent our own children against pollution, etc, so what measures do we expect from governements which harm an Osprey?????Or are we going to relocate windmills, factories etc???This is not scientific, this looks like a prestige project , and I am very disappointed. Never would have expected Urmas wanting to be part of this.

Hi jopie,I think it is very important to know as much as we can about the wildlife. Only if we know, we can protect it.A little example : 10 or 20 years before no one knows exactly what the "Wattenmeer" (Wadden Sea) means to all the population there and to all population of birds who uses it for a stay while their flights. But yet, after a lot of experiences (also with transmittered birds) we know about. And yet we protect it and it is a World Cultural Heritage Something like that can also be happen in countries where "our" birds will stay in the winter. But therefor we have to show these countries what we are talking about and how to save the environment. We have to give them informations about ospreys (or other birds) and how important they are for all of us.jopie, I hope you will stay here with us, and watch the chicks flying!

EDIT : Sorry will(y) and lunan, I have seen your posts too late, and yes, I agree with you. It would be fine to talk about in another forum

"Osprey Erika, travelling with her backpack since 2007, chose a new wintering place this year and is now in Sudan, near the Ad Damazin dam, in the middle reaches of the Blue Nile river, not far from the Ethiopian border."

My very curiousity is why I am here. I want to know about these birds, I like watching them grow, I love seeing the parents interact with them, I like seeing what they eat, how they interact with one another.....seeing who is strong enough to make it....and sadly who may not. I WANT Piret to make it to her wintering grounds....I WANT her to find enough fish to never be hungry.....I WANT her to come home next spring and give me the opportunity to see her again.....and of course I want to see her new nestlings. I want her to be strong and survive. And perhaps, just perhaps this small device will help me (yes, selfish me) know where she is and that she is surviving and because of this I may be blessed enough to see her next spring again. Is it ideal? No, it is not. But, it may help to make the next generation of Osprey stronger by helping us to know where they go....and where they do not go....if they have enough food and survival instincts to make it in the wild. I have "followed" two of the North American bald eagles....two females with transmitters....watched them progress around the perimeter of their parents territory...followed the fishing areas they frequent....watched as the lack of rain in one area caused them to instinctively search for better fishing areas....and they are surviving. Hopefully they will choose mates and produce their own young this coming spring. But, it has been fascinating to track and follow them on their journeys. If that makes me a selfish human I am sorry. But, I will keep watching and hoping they make it in the wild.

_________________S7-Nori-F?S8-Uno-M?S9-Elo-F?

"There is nothing in which the birds differ more from man than the way in which they can build and yet leave a landscape as it was before." ~ Robert Lynd

A quick question.....where will these youngsters migrate to? And is there a lot known (posted info somewhere????) as to the conditions where they will spend their winter season? Wooded, forrested area?......Seaside area???????....How has the weather been this year in their targeted migratory area (s)? Dry, rainy? Does anyone know where I can get some information? Thank you.

Hi IKat.In case you haven't seen all of the forum yet, here is the Migration map. The travels of Osprey Erika can be seen there.

All of us here are enjoying watching the nest - imaging the possibility to see live cam from an ospreys view, mounted on the bird , anyone in here that wouldn't look at such a cam?:puzzled:

493.408 people would - click here:

I have posted this video earlier in the WtE database, and I want to share it also here.

Good idea to make a new topic, Jo! It is a very interesting discussion in my opinion. And very difficult/ambivalent - I can not even find a solution when I discuss it with myself... I don´t like to see birds with those equipment, but to be honest, the video above is one of the most fascinating clips I´ve ever seen. I don´t like to see birds with an antenna, and as far as I know a clearly visible transmitter can mean an increased risk for a bird to be killed during the migration, but I spent hours with reading about migration routes of Lesser Spotted Eagles, fitted with such transmitters. (I know, Piret´s transmitter has no antenna.)

I´m sure it was a horrible shock for Piret to get trapped, but on the other hand - if I compare her life with the life of the majority of the chickens which delivered millions of eggs for breakfast today, I think even with a transmitter she has a phantastic life (and I say this even though I realize that it means to compare apples with oranges). Urmas ist the same Urmas which was our osprey-forum hero a few days ago. And without Urmas and his colleagues we all would have to travel to Estonia and to climb into pretty high trees if we would want to have a look in our beloved (eagle) nests. (Estonia must be beautiful, but I´m a lousy tree climber, so I´m very glad that the "eagle men" from Kotkaklubi and other people do this for us. )

Fortunately we are able to discuss other very controversial topics like hunting here at Looduskalender. I´m sure we can never find a solution, but I hope we can discuss also this theme. I still totally agree with mikke, who recently wrote "Watching the family life of these birds has been a great privilege and inspiration, and technically speaking it is the best nature cam ever." (Best wishes to you mikke, if you are around.)

I think I put most of the transmitter discussion posts here. Those on the Osprey Webcam Discussion will be removed later.Please continue here -

I thinkits not helpful to REMOVE that from the other Forum -because that is the one, where user have to be informed, what is going on with that birds and their lives -there are stepping in the interested people

this here should be a special corner for collecting the posts about the conflicts in beeing not informed about the real world ^^

Roughly (please correct if wrong):-----------------------------------All power suppliers invest money in protection of birds and arrange things with nature conservation organisation before planing new projects. Also they constantly investigate to improve already installed bird protection.Power suppliers are also involved in bird banding. And they help by supplying climbers and workers for gentle treatment of the offspring.I suggest to thoroughly research the internet before your prejudices intensify.Greetingsmeierlein-----------------------------------

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