/m/marlins

Reader Comments and Retorts

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Seriously though, is this something that happens in the grapefruit league a lot more than the cactus league? It seems the distances between ST complexes in Florida would be a really a really good reason to move your ST complex to Arizona. Even where there were still teams in Tucson, those teams were only about two hours away from everyone else. Kind of a dick move by the Sox I guess if they knew the Marlins were jacking up prices, but um, maybe don't jack up prices for ST games, where really none of the games should be considered "premium".

Major League Baseball has specific guidelines about Grapefruit and Cactus League lineups. Its 2014 regulations state teams should field: “A minimum of four players who are regulars on the previous year’s major league team or who were platooned on the previous year’s major league team on a regular basis, or who have a reasonable chance to be regulars on the major league club’s squad during the upcoming season. Each of those regulars, excluding pitchers, must play a minimum of three complete innings.”

What purpose does this serve? Why should MLB pass rules to dictate playing time in spring training? Spring training is at least in part about looking at what you have for the future as well as getting your guys ready come opening day; what justification does MLB have for telling a team that some combination of players *must* play?

I agree completely, MLB has no business dictating who a team decides should play in spring training games. The problem is that these games are purely exhibitions for the purpose of getting ready for the season but MLB wants regulars on the field to draw ticket buyers in.

What purpose does this serve? Why should MLB pass rules to dictate playing time in spring training? Spring training is at least in part about looking at what you have for the future as well as getting your guys ready come opening day; what justification does MLB have for telling a team that some combination of players *must* play?

Teams charge money for these games so I can understand why MLB would demand some reasonable lineup be at work. As Shredder notes the distance between the teams in Florida makes this a not uncommon occurrence so the Marlins' complaints are a bit of spitting into the wind. If the Marlins truly feel like their fans were cheated they are certainly permitted to refund some of the premium they charged.

Having said all that the Sox' lineup yesterday was atrocious even by spring training standards. Other than Jackie Bradley there is a very real chance that no other player yesterday is going to get more than 100 PA in 2014.

I am going to the Marlins/Sox game in Ft. Myers (Sox home game) on Tuesday. Just a hunch that Stanton and Fernandez will not be a part of that game.

What purpose does this serve? Why should MLB pass rules to dictate playing time in spring training? Spring training is at least in part about looking at what you have for the future as well as getting your guys ready come opening day; what justification does MLB have for telling a team that some combination of players *must* play?

-- MWE

Isn't the point of exhibition games against other MLB teams to get some play in against, you know, other MLB teams? If you're playing against the other team's AA team, why bother making the trip? Why not just play against your own AA team?

The fact that fans happily cough up money to watch Spring Training games tells MLB all that they need to know to increase those prices over time. Everything that follows is just icing on the #### cake.

I think the solution here is Spring Training Revenue Sharing. Some teams like the Marlins and Rays get to play in front of their dedicated fanbases while the rest are visiting carpetbaggers. Share the wealth you pigs!

The purpose of spring training is for teams to get many dozens of players ready for the start of the season, in what every way those teams see fit. If teams think the best way to get their players ready is to stand them on their heads or have them wear funny hats, then that is what they should do.

When you pay money to see an exhibition game in March, you should do so knowing that teams are treating this event as training for real games, and you should attend with wide-eyed wonder as to what "training for real games" might mean.

I am fairly confident that the Red Sox decision to send these players to the game was not done out of spite, but as part of an overall plan to get the team ready for the season, a plan which likely has a better chance of succeeding that whatever plan the Marlins might recommend for them.

Given the number of split-squad games that teams play in spring training, it's awfully hard to field four plausible regulars on a consistent basis. My guess is that this rule is violated (at least in spirit, although the "have a reasonable chance to be regulars" clause allows for a lot of leeway) for somewhere between a quarter and half of all spring games.

The NFL has no such rule for its exhibition games, despite the fact that some teams (maybe all of them) require season ticket holders to buy tickets to preseason games as well. I have been to one NFL preseason game in my life, and when the starters exited at the end of the first quarter, so did we.

The best part of this story is that, per SI, "Thursday’s game between the Marlins and Red Sox was called after eight innings due to rain with both teams tied at zero. Boston’s lineup out-hit Miami’s, 7-2."
So that Marlins, who throw out absurdly pathetic regular season lineups, are complaining despite the fact that the Sawx scrubs outplayed their regulars.
Hooray!

Let's face it. The Marlins (and the North Palm Beach/Jupiter officials) are just pissed that they won't be able to pull the premium pricing thing next year when the Sox come to town. That's really what this is all about.

If those are the rules, the Red Sox should follow them. If there are penalties for non-compliance, they should be subjected to them.

But...

1. If these are "guidelines" (as TFA says) instead of "rules", too bad for the Marlins. The Red Sox - all teams, really - tend to follow these guidelines, if memory serves me well. There will be exceptions, especially in the early part of exhibition season. Knowing there will be exceptions, teams should not operate as though there won't. Like, for example, indicating to fans that they will have a super-premium product awaiting them.

2. I agree with Mike that this, whether rule or guideline, doesn't fit with the primary purpose of spring training. It fits with the purpose of maximizing revenue on exhibition games, but that's not the primary purpose, nor should it be.

3. This:

As pointed out on HBT, the Marlins have played 3 road games in ST so far and have brought 4 starters (per the rule that they're complaining about) only once

4. Marlins have drawn 2200 or so for their midweek home games, then almost triple that yesterday with Boston in town. Presumably the increase was mostly an influx of Red Sox fans.

If the Marlins are complaining on behalf of Red Sox fans that there were an insufficient number of Red Sox starters at the game, then that's awfully kind of them. It would have been kinder not to gouge another $45,000 out of them in the first place, but hey, it's a business, and complaining is free.

Marlins fans were surrounded by Red Sox fans, watched the Marlins flail against a parade of nobodies, got rained on... And paid $10 extra for the privilege. Two, maybe three, of those factors are in the control of the Marlins. One is in control of the Red Sox. One is Mother Nature. The Marlins are simply trying to distract from their culpability in the misery of Marlins fans.

I've made the trip to ST the last three years, and am making the pilgrimage again next week. I thought it was widely known that teams have to bring four regulars to away games.

This is very loosely enforced, though. I've seen AAAA guys get called regulars. It's just part of it. That's not the real reason you should go down to ST, though. I like to see the prospects, of course, but most importantly it's the atmosphere. I love the stadiums, the weather, everything about it.

I will say, though, that ticket prices are a bit crazy. I bought tickets to a Tigers/Astros game in one of the very last rows for $30 apiece. I don't think they're worth that much, but what can you do. If people will pay them (as I do), then they will charge those prices.

I will say, though, that ticket prices are a bit crazy. I bought tickets to a Tigers/Astros game in one of the very last rows for $30 apiece. I don't think they're worth that much, but what can you do. If people will pay them (as I do), then they will charge those prices.

I wish I would have known more about the whole spring training thing when I went a few years ago. Going to the games is great of course, but it was way more interesting (better access too) watching the workouts on the backfields than the games were. Some fellow said over at Hardball Talk that if you really want to maximize your ST experience, pick a night game. Hit the complex in the morning to watch workouts, watch the 'B' game on one of the back fields, and then go the big league game at night.

The NFL has no such rule for its exhibition games, despite the fact that some teams (maybe all of them) require season ticket holders to buy tickets to preseason games as well. I have been to one NFL preseason game in my life, and when the starters exited at the end of the first quarter, so did we.

The NFL requires teams to charge the price for all games, preseason and regular season. It's not a factor for ST holders because they understand they are paying a certain amount for 8 regular season games and the preseaon games are free.

Besides, the NFL is not analogous. Everybody knows generally who is going to play and for how long for each game. Plus, the first team is always going to play together for some portion, unlike what happened with the Red Sox. In spring training the who plays and for how long can vary day to day up until the last few weeks,

I went to the first Yankees spring training game of the year, against FSU (with Jameis Winston playing a few innings in LF), and tickets were $29 each. Most of the crowd were FSU fans. It seemed pretty pricey to me but I had never been to a ST game before and happened to be down there for work.

Yep. Went to ST for the first time last year and I realize it being Florida this shouldn't have been a surprise, but a big takeaway is how little protection there is from the sun. The Mets complex has some shade behind home plate (with higher priced, usually occupied seats), but the Cardinals/Marlins stadium in Jupiter sits there with basically no covering, besides trips to concessions and a small party area off right field that may be occupied by a party.

I might as well say that I had a good experience with exchanging tickets at both venues. I had my trip booked for this weekend last year, but had to bail because of a death in the family. The staff at Tradition Field gave no push back in my request to exchange my tickets for another game a few weeks out. More surprisingly, I bought my Cardinals tickets through Ticketmaster and was also easily able to exchange tickets with no fees. Good job by everyone there. My brother and I were still able to make a Heat game on a Friday night (despite some of the worst traffic I've ever sat through, thanks to a house music festival in downtown Miami), and it was the opening weekend of the NCAA weekend, so we hit up a few cigar bars (and a gun range for skeet shooting). Quality sports weekend.

I wish I would have known more about the whole spring training thing when I went a few years ago. Going to the games is great of course, but it was way more interesting (better access too) watching the workouts on the backfields than the games were. Some fellow said over at Hardball Talk that if you really want to maximize your ST experience, pick a night game. Hit the complex in the morning to watch workouts, watch the 'B' game on one of the back fields, and then go the big league game at night.

I go down mostly to watch the Tigers, although I have been to a couple of other complexes. I know that at the Tigers' complex, they close off the back fields and the "B" games to the public when actual ST games begin. From the time when pitchers and catchers report until the day before those games, you're free to check it all out. But after that, they shut it down and the only way you can catch a glimpse of the "B" games is through several fences from behind the left-field berm.

As for the four player rule, I believe relievers count. So if you're bringing two relievers with you, those count. Say the Tigers bring Bruce Rondon and Joe Nathan, they would then only have to bring two other "regulars." That's how I believe the rule works, anyway.

Yep. Went to ST for the first time last year and I realize it being Florida this shouldn't have been a surprise, but a big takeaway is how little protection there is from the sun. The Mets complex has some shade behind home plate (with higher priced, usually occupied seats), but the Cardinals/Marlins stadium in Jupiter sits there with basically no covering, besides trips to concessions and a small party area off right field that may be occupied by a party.

I've only been to three ST stadiums down there. Steinbrenner Field in Tampa is pretty decent for shade, so long as you are in the seats. The Phillies field (Brighthouse, I think it's called?) in Clearwater is awesome. Ample shade, and just a beautiful stadium. Obviously, been to Joker Marchant in Lakeland the most. Horrible shade, there. At the start of the game, only about 4 rows in 3 or 4 sections are covered. As the game goes on, a little more is covered, but by that time you're sweating like crazy. For our second game there this year, I bought us tickets in the shaded area for $30 apiece. Weather should be good, though. Upper 60's to mid 70's the whole time we're there.

Our first game will be awesome. My dad has a client down there who has season tickets to the Lakeland minor league team. Because of this, they get their seats for the Grapefruit League season. Well, their seats are first row, right next to the visiting dugout. Obviously in the sun, but totally worth it. Saw the Blue Jays in those seats last year. I was close enough to hear their conversations. Seeing Washington in those seats this year. Hoping they bring Harper or Zimmerman on that trip. Also hoping Fister starts the game.

IIRC, the 4 Player Minimum rule is a Selig initiative that goes back at least a decade. It's open to some interpretation, and it looks like enforcement is spotty, too. However, it seems like a good idea from a fan perspective, although it also helps teams charge higher prices. Veterans aren't going to take many bus rides, especially the longer ones, so some teams have more problems complying with the rule. Knowing that there will be a little dust-up in the newspaper might be a [small] incentive to lean toward at least arguable compliance.

See 4-5 Cactus League games a year, never heard of this rule. Saw Angels -DBacks earlier this week, and Conger was only recognizable name on Angels roster.

Didn't care.

Spring training is about sitting in sun, seeing young prospects play hoping they figure it out and become stars so you can say I remember when he was 19 and hit a triple and I knew. It's also about going early to watch youngsters in your teams system working out on the practice fields and taking BP.

It's also about seeing hot looking girls. And eating dogs and ballpark food and getting even fatter while you check out hot looking girls.

Maybe Cactus League is different, no team more than 45 mins apart, rainouts rare. But I never expect anything near a MLB roster until the last week, and never tire of watching minor leaguers busting their asses trying to make an impression.

Brentz and Marrero also played the full game, and are considered prospects worth watching by many; Lavarnway is an interesting young catcher; and Drake Britton pitched, and he is considered a prospect with a good chance of being a valuable member of the big league bullpen this year.

So, one team played five of the top 62 prospects in baseball, plus two other prospects, plus an interesting young relief pitcher...and the problem is that people would rather see, I dunno, John Lackey pitch two innings with nothing to prove, or Jonny Gomes take a few swings?

I have been to many Spring Training games in both Florida and Arizona, and I would always rather see a bunch of interesting, hungry prospects than a bunch of established regulars just going through the motions.

“A minimum of four players who are regulars on the previous year’s major league team or who were platooned on the previous year’s major league team on a regular basis, or who have a reasonable chance to be regulars on the major league club’s squad during the upcoming season. Each of those regulars, excluding pitchers, must play a minimum of three complete innings.”

And thus lies the wiggle room. The Marlins have no chance to win. And they know it because they said this:

A Marlins spokesman said Thursday that the club wasn't going to file a grievance with Major League Baseball...

When I moved to AZ, Spring Training was one of the things I looked forward to. I've taken my daughter to games for almost a decade, and still have many of the old scorecards and ticket stubs. Ten years ago, you could get lawn seats for $3, bleachers for $5, and the top tickets would be $20 or less. Over the last few years, Spring Training has gotten out of control, and I don't even think I'm going this year. Pricing is no cheaper than for games that count, and the facilities are inferior. It's disappointing to say the least, but they're filling the stadiums, I guess. All those new facilities have to be paid for, and they don't seem to have hit the limit for what fans are willing to pay for March baseball.

Maybe Cactus League is different, no team more than 45 mins apart, rainouts rare. But I never expect anything near a MLB roster until the last week, and never tire of watching minor leaguers busting their asses trying to make an impression.

Those reasons would just make it more likely for teams to have regulars come on road trips, in the Grapefruit League the vets don't like going on those longer cross-state bus rides particularly if there's a chance of bad weather.

I'd favor the Red Sox being punished if they broke a credible rule that was consistently applied but A) They can plausibly say that they met the minimum requirements based on the vagueness of the rule B) The rule is barely followed or probably not followed at all with some frequency and finally C) It's a stupid ass rule because MLB has no business telling teams how they should best get ready for the season which is the whole point of spring training in the first place despite the increased attempts to turn it into another revenue stream

I've been going to Spring Training for the last fifteen or so years, mostly Cactus League, and I'm heading to Phoenix again. The writer of TFA must be some kinda rookie, because it is par for the course for the visiting team to send a substandard lineup in the first week of March. And, yes, my observation is that it happens more in Grapefruit than Cactus. That's probably because of the travel time, but it's possibly also an organizational or player decision. For example, over the years I see a lot of Adam Dunn in Spring Training, he seems to play in all the home and away games, and I figure it's his decision because a player of his tenure and contract doesn't need to play in the aways.

I go because I love baseball, and I enjoy a break from the cold weather. But the intimacy of years past is disappearing as more people show up. And I dislike the trend of everyone trying to empty my wallet - I hate to pay for parking that is free the other eleven months of the year, and I'm not even sure that the teams get that money. But I'm pretty sure the teams *do* get the money from gate tickets, and I've been lying to Mrs Snowboy for years about how much they are charging. These days I usually pick one of the least-popular matchups of the day, buy general admission, and sit wherever I want. But even that is getting hard on the pocketbook: tomorrow night's SEA@LADodgers is already advertised as a split squad game for *both* teams, and berm seats are $13 ($20 is you want to buy now online, including the service and processing fees.) SEA@SF tomorrow is charging $48 for a bleacher. If you want to go to Indians@Giants next week, a lawn seat is $30. I feel like I'm being gouged for showing up, because I don't think there would be more fans if they were only charging $5 for a lawn seat, and I doubt that whatever pittance a team makes by overcharging fans for 15 games in its 10,000 seat Spring Training venue will pay even a fraction of the salary of a Robinson Cano or a Jacoby Ellsbury. I doubt it even pays for Oliver Perez or Rajai Davis.

It's exhibition baseball, and everybody in the dugout/box knows it, but I've had more than a few arguments (memorably, at Angels games in Tempe, where they seem to like to open the box office early and sell out early) with scalpers where I have said "I'm not paying you $50 to get in...#56 is starting at first base today...Santana will leave after 3 innings, even if he is pitching a perfect game..."

Lavarnway isn't young (26), was asked to learn to play first, and is interesting only in the overly optimistic hope that he can return to his 2011-2012 levels after putting up a .585 OPS in 291 ML PA's, striking out in 23% of them.

Fair enough on Lavarnway...not really my primary point, as he was the eighth guy I listed in a qualified way...even so, I'd rather see a guy like Lavarnway play in an early March than, say, David Ross...