Outhouse Editor

sdsichero wrote:I especially like and admire Zechs. He's everything I wish I could be!

Dragavon wrote:Zechs... is...

Zechs...is...

I can't say it. It's too horrible. Zechs...is...not...wrong...

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:25 pm

GOSD wrote:Other than WW (which they could have left alone really...), nothing.

Wally is still not the Flash, Tim isn't Robin, Jason is now accepted back into the ranks even though he has murdered tons of people, Supes costume is dumb, Hal is still Hal, Vibe is part of a JL team again, The Atom is a girl, etc...

Maybe Shazam?

All in all, DC is a mess.

I'd say the Gary Frank redesign is a good thing, but that's about it with the misnamed Captain Marvel, for myself that is.

So you don't see any potential in the Girl Atom? I kind of like that it appears (I'm a bit behind on the story with her) she stole Palmer's tech.

The Old Doctor

GOSD wrote:Other than WW (which they could have left alone really...), nothing.

Wally is still not the Flash, Tim isn't Robin, Jason is now accepted back into the ranks even though he has murdered tons of people, Supes costume is dumb, Hal is still Hal, Vibe is part of a JL team again, The Atom is a girl, etc...

Maybe Shazam?

All in all, DC is a mess.

I'd say the Gary Frank redesign is a good thing, but that's about it with the misnamed Captain Marvel, for myself that is.

So you don't see any potential in the Girl Atom? I kind of like that it appears (I'm a bit behind on the story with her) she stole Palmer's tech.

FROGMAN

The one thing they did right: create a jumping on point for new readers. The question one has to ask in regards to this, or the Nu52 as a whole, is "Was it worth it?" Could a jumping on point have been created without tossing everything? Could Aquaman have become the wonderful character he is now without a reboot? Could the Joker have become a complete waste of space without the reboot? Even the few moments and pleasures I've enjoyed could have been done without sacrificing everything they threw away.

They created a jumping on point for new readers at the cost of old readers. It wasn't worth it, it wasn't necessary.

FROGMAN

The one thing they did right: create a jumping on point for new readers. The question one has to ask in regards to this, or the Nu52 as a whole, is "Was it worth it?" Could a jumping on point have been created without tossing everything? Could Aquaman have become the wonderful character he is now without a reboot? Could the Joker have become a complete waste of space without the reboot? Even the few moments and pleasures I've enjoyed could have been done without sacrificing everything they threw away.

They created a jumping on point for new readers at the cost of old readers. It wasn't worth it, it wasn't necessary.

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:30 pm

MrBlack wrote:I haven't read much of the new stuff DC has been putting out, not due to any criticism of their new direction, but because I mostly dropped out of comics well before the new direction. As a bit of an outside observer, however, I can toss out a couple of things that I've liked from the handful of New 52 comics I've read.

-Streamlining history. This was something that was a major complaint about the new direction of DC, but it has made the comics much more new reader friendly. There's just a lot less to know about if you want to dive in, with a couple of exceptions, and it allows for upending the expectations of longtime fans. Speaking of which...-The Superman/Wonder Woman relationship. Sorry guys, but I like this. It presents some interesting story opportunities whether they stay together or break up.-Superman and Wonder Woman's costumes. The Super-suit has grown on me, and it makes sense in-universe. I also like the new color scheme on Wonder Woman's costume. Not so fond of the others...-Earth-2. I miss the original JSA, but Robinson's new version is intriguing.-Scott Snyder on Batman. Not actually a consequence of the New 52, but he's done some great work.

Yes, I think the streamlined history is a good idea, but to a limit. Compressing to just major character points works as well as keeping top notch stories, but otherwise they seem to have tossed out some of the baby with the bathwater. I think that the over all continuity of the characters can be broken down with the first of seven years covering the 30s, 40s and 50s, with then having one year cover each decade... with the odd tweaking.

I liked the Supes/WW back in the 80s and in Kingdom Come, but wonder if DC will really progress with it at all. If they don't then this is a fail to me.

Earth-2... yes intriguing in some ways but I otherwise hate it. The Flash's new origin is a little interesting.

I've not read any of the Bat-Titles yet.

The Old Doctor

MrBlack wrote:I haven't read much of the new stuff DC has been putting out, not due to any criticism of their new direction, but because I mostly dropped out of comics well before the new direction. As a bit of an outside observer, however, I can toss out a couple of things that I've liked from the handful of New 52 comics I've read.

-Streamlining history. This was something that was a major complaint about the new direction of DC, but it has made the comics much more new reader friendly. There's just a lot less to know about if you want to dive in, with a couple of exceptions, and it allows for upending the expectations of longtime fans. Speaking of which...-The Superman/Wonder Woman relationship. Sorry guys, but I like this. It presents some interesting story opportunities whether they stay together or break up.-Superman and Wonder Woman's costumes. The Super-suit has grown on me, and it makes sense in-universe. I also like the new color scheme on Wonder Woman's costume. Not so fond of the others...-Earth-2. I miss the original JSA, but Robinson's new version is intriguing.-Scott Snyder on Batman. Not actually a consequence of the New 52, but he's done some great work.

Yes, I think the streamlined history is a good idea, but to a limit. Compressing to just major character points works as well as keeping top notch stories, but otherwise they seem to have tossed out some of the baby with the bathwater. I think that the over all continuity of the characters can be broken down with the first of seven years covering the 30s, 40s and 50s, with then having one year cover each decade... with the odd tweaking.

I liked the Supes/WW back in the 80s and in Kingdom Come, but wonder if DC will really progress with it at all. If they don't then this is a fail to me.

Earth-2... yes intriguing in some ways but I otherwise hate it. The Flash's new origin is a little interesting.

The Old Doctor

amazingly, giving a Flash book to Manapul...as a writer/co-writer. no, it's not Wally, but it IS a good Flash book

pretty much everything in the WW book. but nothing involving her outside of her own book.

DEMON KNIGHTS. for the love of holy fuck, I love this book.

pretty much the rest of the "Dark" line. I loved Snyder's Swamp Thing and the first 18 issues of Animal man (but dropped both after Rotworld ended), JL Dark has gotten better and better, I Vampire was a TERRIFIC book, even Resurrection Man started off pretty good before floundering -- DC did a good job putting talented creators on the characters in the darker corner of their universe and telling good stories with them...something they should be more concerned with doing across the board

making Aquaman important -- although I think Johns has oversold it a bit, and i'm no longer reading the book at the moment, it's good to see that character not treated as a punchline anymore

Batman & Robin -- man, this book has been great

I love that you replied, but also, you've given more reason to check out some other stuff there.

The Old Doctor

amazingly, giving a Flash book to Manapul...as a writer/co-writer. no, it's not Wally, but it IS a good Flash book

pretty much everything in the WW book. but nothing involving her outside of her own book.

DEMON KNIGHTS. for the love of holy fuck, I love this book.

pretty much the rest of the "Dark" line. I loved Snyder's Swamp Thing and the first 18 issues of Animal man (but dropped both after Rotworld ended), JL Dark has gotten better and better, I Vampire was a TERRIFIC book, even Resurrection Man started off pretty good before floundering -- DC did a good job putting talented creators on the characters in the darker corner of their universe and telling good stories with them...something they should be more concerned with doing across the board

making Aquaman important -- although I think Johns has oversold it a bit, and i'm no longer reading the book at the moment, it's good to see that character not treated as a punchline anymore

Batman & Robin -- man, this book has been great

I love that you replied, but also, you've given more reason to check out some other stuff there.

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:35 pm

nietoperz wrote:Very little, unfortunately:

Wonder Woman is the best she has been since George Perez's post-COIE relaunch.Snyder's Batman.Snyder's Swamp ThingI, Vampire.Earth 2, so far.

....and that really is it. The reboot itself failed creatively because they took it as an excuse to reinvent characters that did not need reinventing, decided not to listen to the fans under any circumstances and also because it appears to be happening in a panic and without any kind of roadmap or strong guiding hand.

Hmm, Snyder seems to be the real deal at DC. Something to note and check out.

Good summery there. I concur with it. Mind you... looking at OMAC and now this new Atom... even The Ray... I wonder.

The Old Doctor

Wonder Woman is the best she has been since George Perez's post-COIE relaunch.Snyder's Batman.Snyder's Swamp ThingI, Vampire.Earth 2, so far.

....and that really is it. The reboot itself failed creatively because they took it as an excuse to reinvent characters that did not need reinventing, decided not to listen to the fans under any circumstances and also because it appears to be happening in a panic and without any kind of roadmap or strong guiding hand.

Hmm, Snyder seems to be the real deal at DC. Something to note and check out.

Good summery there. I concur with it. Mind you... looking at OMAC and now this new Atom... even The Ray... I wonder.

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:36 pm

nietoperz wrote:Johns and Frank's Shazam is an absolute shit sandwich.

That sounds like me when it started.

I love the Frank artwork though. Also, I think Johns does have a grip on Billy's character. But..

The Old Doctor

Still playing catch up, but thanks to all for the replies. I wanted some food for thought on DC and it's various titles.

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:41 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:I've really liked Aquaman and Earth 2.

Other than that...I've tried a lot of the books that I had a modicum of interest in; I think I've said before that I did enjoy the Simon Baz issues of Green Lantern once I stopped being horrified at how stupid his origin was.

But for me...see, I don't think you can truly answer this question without looking at what has been lost.

There isn't a single thing in the revamp that was worth the loss of Wally West, the Infinity, Inc. generation of heroes, Black Lightning's children as heroes in their own right. The loss of the New Teen Titans era, which also featured the Titans/Deathstroke rivalry which lasted for years and was actually a theme that could've been mined further by talented creators, was also lost.

So. I don't mean to take anything away from the New 52. DC has the right to make changes, and I've tried a number of the books.

But nothing they've done was worth what they lost. They sacrificed their history, a huge chunk of the great things that had done, for sales. That's what they did. And they got their sales increase.

What they lost...is far greater, in my opinion.

Awesome post.

The Old Doctor

Other than that...I've tried a lot of the books that I had a modicum of interest in; I think I've said before that I did enjoy the Simon Baz issues of Green Lantern once I stopped being horrified at how stupid his origin was.

But for me...see, I don't think you can truly answer this question without looking at what has been lost.

There isn't a single thing in the revamp that was worth the loss of Wally West, the Infinity, Inc. generation of heroes, Black Lightning's children as heroes in their own right. The loss of the New Teen Titans era, which also featured the Titans/Deathstroke rivalry which lasted for years and was actually a theme that could've been mined further by talented creators, was also lost.

So. I don't mean to take anything away from the New 52. DC has the right to make changes, and I've tried a number of the books.

But nothing they've done was worth what they lost. They sacrificed their history, a huge chunk of the great things that had done, for sales. That's what they did. And they got their sales increase.

Fagorstorm

Wonder Woman is the best she has been since George Perez's post-COIE relaunch.Snyder's Batman.Snyder's Swamp ThingI, Vampire.Earth 2, so far.

....and that really is it. The reboot itself failed creatively because they took it as an excuse to reinvent characters that did not need reinventing, decided not to listen to the fans under any circumstances and also because it appears to be happening in a panic and without any kind of roadmap or strong guiding hand.

Fagorstorm

Wonder Woman is the best she has been since George Perez's post-COIE relaunch.Snyder's Batman.Snyder's Swamp ThingI, Vampire.Earth 2, so far.

....and that really is it. The reboot itself failed creatively because they took it as an excuse to reinvent characters that did not need reinventing, decided not to listen to the fans under any circumstances and also because it appears to be happening in a panic and without any kind of roadmap or strong guiding hand.

FROGMAN

Captain Marvel is terrible. I really want Billy Batson to get hit by a car. It's a waste of Frank's talent.

Anyway, positivity:Everything about Wonder WomanThe Dark lineGetting Capullo off of Spawn/Mcfarlane copying type work. Dude's got a great style on his own. Really surprised how much I enjoy his work.OMAC while it lasted

FROGMAN

Captain Marvel is terrible. I really want Billy Batson to get hit by a car. It's a waste of Frank's talent.

Anyway, positivity:Everything about Wonder WomanThe Dark lineGetting Capullo off of Spawn/Mcfarlane copying type work. Dude's got a great style on his own. Really surprised how much I enjoy his work.OMAC while it lasted