ok, apperently this kid was in the library at UCLA. the rule is that you have to show ide, when asked for id, he refused to show it. he was asked to leave, he refused. police were called. he yelled and got histerical. he lay down on the floor and wouldn't get up. when the cops tried to pick him up, he thrashed about. they tased him, at the lowest possible setting, and then handcuffed him. he wouldn't stand up, and they tased him again.

here is the question - I said that, the old school way would be to grab hold of a part of him that hurt, like his ear or a handful of hair, or pin his arm behind him, and march him out. my argument was that no cop would try to reason with kid to get up, in front of a crowd of screaming and chanting students who were supporting the kid. in any event, this was going to have hurt the kid - if not a shock, then he was still going to have his hair or ear pulled.

anybody see a way to end this, without involving 6 guys and a streatcher, without the kid being discomforted?

mixed feelings about that, they gave him clear orders, but at the same time he was going crazy, he could have a medical condition. Those cops were in my opinion idiots because there was about 7 of them and they didnt carry him. Tazers are a last resort.

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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

Told to stand up literally dozens of times and apparently he didn't, since they had to keep telling him. As far as I know tazers don't have a lasting effect, so he wasn't unable to stand, just unwilling.

Tazered, hair pulled, or wristlocked, the moron was going to get hurt. He kept saying he was going to leave, but would never get off of the floor.

He was a resisting suspect, do what you need to get him out of there. Enough of the PC crap, you don't handle people with cotton balls and q-tips, you do what is necessary to get them out of the situation.

And to those people who think university police are rent-a-cops, most major universities' police departments are real law enforcement officers with guns and badges that can and will take you to jail.

[/rant]

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We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

Crablord, use of force continuims differ a bit from department to department but generally tasers and chemicals are below things like wristlocks due to their being less likley to cause an injury. When I went through my taser training were basically told that we could tase pretty early on in the escalation. Tasers and chemicals were both considered pure pain compliance with low likelihood of injury. Police depts and security live in mortal fear of lawsuits. A visit to the ER, a sprain, fracture or even a bruise are evidence that might concievably support a claim of excessive force. A taser leaves a pair of tiny marks, pepper spray is undetectable an hour after exposure. The suspect could hurt themselves in a fall after either. Tasers work really well on pyschos who are othrwise impervious to pain due to muscle shutdown, but they are unbelievably painfull. ( been tased in training.) It's also fun to see a violent drunk morph into a cooperative and sober gentleman after a couple of shocks. K-

There is nothing remotely moral about violently attacking someone who had not harmed the life or property of another. Violence does not become morally justified when you wear a badge.

The job of the police was to protect the victim's right to act as he pleased so long he did not violate the life or property of another. Not only did they fail to protect an innocent man, they actively committed assault. The officers should be removed from their position as public servants and face trial for their attack. Other police officers should protect the integrity of their jobs by demanding that the attackers be tried under the provisions of the Fifth Amendment.

You are right and wrong. Police have to follow their orders - to enforce orders on the public. So they are empowered to "originate" orders, as you put it.

Quote:There is nothing remotely moral about violently attacking someone who had not harmed the life or property of another. Violence does not become morally justified when you wear a badge.

Are you saying that enforcement of low-level rules should be flouted until major catastrophe occurs? Who's to say what that guy may have done since he was already violating the entrance rules to the library (police POV).

And violence IS morally justified in self defense. Defense of the library.

Quote:The job of the police was to protect the victim's right to act as he pleased so long he did not violate the life or property of another.

They did protect the victim - the library was the victim. Get off your ill-informed high horse.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin