(Quote)Laura-857740 said: The argument states married couples may engage in sex, how is this different. Are you n...

(Quote)Laura-857740 said:The argument states married couples may engage in sex, how is this different. Are you not still married if their is no annulment?

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This is a false premise. As I have noted several times previously in this topic, even spouses who are also civilly married and living together do not have completely unrestrained access to the conjugal act.

(Quote)Lauren-927923 said:
HI Albert,
I have been trying to follow this thread and to be honest my head is spinning....

(Quote)Lauren-927923 said:

HI Albert,

I have been trying to follow this thread and to be honest my head is spinning. I answered one of the spin offs already, but wanted to provide some thoughts to yours as well.

God reveals himself to us through any number of means, primarily through the teachings of the Church, Tradition and Holy Scripture. In the Church is the fullness of revelation revealed, meaning that the Church holds the fullness of Truth. That does not negate revelation coming from other avenues as well, but it will always be only partially received and understood.

Scriptures are divinely inspired although written by human hands, we believe that the Holy Spirit guided the authors in the revelation and fullness of Truth contained in them as the Word of God. The Church has always taught that the Church has as part of its mission the duty and the right to interpret Scripture and to supervise the interpretation in order that its integrity may not be damaged and erroneous interpretations be given. However, it also encourages the reading and study of Scripture. I woudl add with a reliance on the writings of the Church as well as to how these are interpreted and why. The Bible is a complilation of divinely inspired revelations that tell the story of our Salvation among other things. While some things are to be taken literally not all things in the Bible are meant to be interpreted literally or need to be. They represent a truth in their telling but it may not be historically true -- for example, the importance of the Genesis stories are that God brought the world and everything in it into being and he created Man in his image. Perhaps the links below will help. I would also refer you to the Catechism, which can also be searched online. I provided a link for this as well for the search for the Interpretation of Scripture.

In regard to the premarital sex thing, I am too confused over what the point was or not to effectively address it. But, I will point out that love for another person can be shared without sexual intimacy, and despite how much we believe we love another person, engaging in sexual intimacy without the committment and surrender of marriage, we are cheapening the gift of that intimacy and we are ultimately cheating ourselves of the truly exquisite gift of that intimacy. As a result, it can lead to disappointment and a sense of devaluation of both the self and others, and ultimately leaves one empty rather than fulfilled and renewed by the encounter. It is in this way, sex can become an addiction like any other drug, seeking more and more to grab the transitory illusion of its benefits, because the enjoyment is only superficial and momentary in this type of encounter. In addition, the risk of creating a life and then because of the instable nature of the relationship to begin with, that child grows up without the benefit of a strong, stable and loving foundation, is enough reason to avoid succumbing to the temptation.

Like I said, I am totally confused by this thread, but perhaps some of the above will help. If it doesn't please feel free to disregard it as the ravings of a confused but well meaning contributor.

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Lauren, it is always nice to read your posts full of compassion, understanding, charity, kindness and love for your neighbors giving good advices without being judgmental. God bless you

(Quote)Laura-857740 said: My friends did it for financial reasons. They have lived together ever since their divorce and they stil...

(Quote)Laura-857740 said: My friends did it for financial reasons. They have lived together ever since their divorce and they still mutually agree they are married spiritually, just not legally.

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They need to discuss this with a spiritual director or confessor, if they haven't already. The most significant concern I see is the risk of scandal, especially if there are children involved. The legality of such an arrangement in their jurisdiction may also be an issue, as well as whether the financial reasons for the civil divorce involve any sort of fraud. Stability of the relationship and the financial welfare of the spouses and children (if any) in the event of death, etc. should also be considered.

The Catechism discusses the temporal as well as the spiritual ends of marriage. That may provide insight into other considerations in non-conventional marriage arrangements.

(Quote)Jerry-74383 said:
If you were truly looking for insight, you would be off reading the Catechism and researc...

(Quote)Jerry-74383 said:

If you were truly looking for insight, you would be off reading the Catechism and researching other documents that explain the nature of Christian marriage and sexuality far better than anyone here will be able to do in the context of an Internet discussion forum. You appear to be grasping at whatever shadow of a straw appears to provide even the slightest support to your contention.

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To everyone: When arguing an issue, and trying to defend it, take Jerry's advice. And if you notice someone trying to defend their stance, pay attention to where they get their information from. In today's world, we have too many Catholics who have come to the place where they say "well, I think so-and-so can happen", instead of following what our Church is leading us to do/believe.

I've seen people defending premarital sex, using contraception, voting for very pro-abortion candidates by using the words "Well, I think (it's o.k. to) because..."

(Quote)Albert-964084 said: Yes we are human and easily deceived and this is why we must be vigilant and open our hearts to many an...

(Quote)Albert-964084 said: Yes we are human and easily deceived and this is why we must be vigilant and open our hearts to many answers. We must decide for ourselves which are true and which are false and not for others because we do not know what God wants of us except for our faith. The only true God of my faith is the trinity and the only knowledge of that is what is known of Jesus and what he did when he was here. I also believe in the Holy Spirit and that he acts through us....through our hearts. That is the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the church of which I speak.

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Albert, you said: "Yes we are human and easily deceived" Me: I agree with you!! Satan's purpose is to lead us astray, so we don't make it through the narrow path into heaven. And he will do that (lead us astray/confuse us) at any cost. So we must be vigilant.

Albert, you said: "This is why we must be vigilant and open our hearts to many answers". Me: No, No, No!!! This is very new-age/we all need to "Coexist" mumbo-jumbo. This is the "there are many paths to God/heaven" fallacy.

Albert, you said: "We must decide for ourselves which are true and which are false and not for others because we do not know what God wants of us except for our faith". Me: Um, nooo. If you want to interpret the bible your own way, there are many denominations that do just that. I believe that is where the Protestants got their name, when they "protested" the Catholic faith. But even then, with the other denominations, their ministers will still "lead" you("not for others to decide which are true/false) because EVERY church has someone who "interprets" the scripture. So are you suggesting that we shouldn't even attend mass/church? That we are capable of interpreting on our own, that that is what we should do?

And if every man/woman "must decide for ourselves which are true and which are false and not for others because we do not know what God wants of us except for our faith" yet you also state " we are human and easily deceived", then.........you are contradicting yourself.

(Quote)Greg-957429 said:
I'm also new to this site, and have much the same problem expressed by Albert. What's the ...

(Quote)Greg-957429 said:

I'm also new to this site, and have much the same problem expressed by Albert. What's the generally-accepted way to initiate contact with someone if you like her profile? I generally send an emotigram with a short, personal message, but usually don't get a response.

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Greg welcome to the fora you honestly seem like a wonderful young man who is living out his faith and seeking a woman with the same values. I would suggest putting your self out there more by participating in the fora and showing the bright young man you seem to be in your profile. It will happen, just be patient.

(Quote)Wendy-387654 said:
Albert, you said: "Yes we are human and easily deceived" Me: I agree ...

(Quote)Wendy-387654 said:

Albert, you said: "Yes we are human and easily deceived" Me: I agree with you!! Satan's purpose is to lead us astray, so we don't make it through the narrow path into heaven. And he will do that (lead us astray/confuse us) at any cost. So we must be vigilant.

Albert, you said: "This is why we must be vigilant and open our hearts to many answers". Me: No, No, No!!! This is very new-age/we all need to "Coexist" mumbo-jumbo. This is the "there are many paths to God/heaven" fallacy.

Albert, you said: "We must decide for ourselves which are true and which are false and not for others because we do not know what God wants of us except for our faith". Me: Um, nooo. If you want to interpret the bible your own way, there are many denominations that do just that. I believe that is where the Protestants got their name, when they "protested" the Catholic faith. But even then, with the other denominations, their ministers will still "lead" you("not for others to decide which are true/false) because EVERY church has someone who "interprets" the scripture. So are you suggesting that we shouldn't even attend mass/church? That we are capable of interpreting on our own, that that is what we should do?

And if every man/woman "must decide for ourselves which are true and which are false and not for others because we do not know what God wants of us except for our faith" yet you also state " we are human and easily deceived", then.........you are contradicting yourself.

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Hi Wendy, It seems that you know what you believe in and that you are secure in your faith. This is a good thing and I hope it comes from your own reflection on what it means to be catholic and not solely from what you have been told or heard. Undoubtedly what you have been told varies widely among the 1 billion catholics on earth, if there is a fallacy I have to believe that it is "a very narrow path to heaven". If there are not many paths then you must keep your faith very strong for the odds that only your path is the right path will make your heaven a very solitary one. To interpret words to a deep understanding within your soul is a very personal journey and only God knows wether this will lead us to heaven. In other words, we all interpret the Bible our way. Attending church and being catholic is vital to establishing a moral and ethical value system to live our lives through the example of jesus Christ but only a fool takes the word of another protestant or catholic as if it could be the word of God. We are of the Judeo/Christian tradition, and our word for God is "Yahweh", a ancient word which translates loosely into that whose name cannot be spoken or understood. As humans we are full of contradictions (even priests) so we must guide ourselves through this life and can only hope to do the right thing some of the time. Look at those comments that you see as contradictions and realize that they are simply the coherent statements of a man who believes that others can guide you in the wrong direction so you have to make your path and follow your heart because the holy spirit speaks through people and through you but only trust whats in your heart. If you don't, that is when you are vulnerable. When you pretend to know and lead people down the wrong path because you know the "truth", then you cease to do God's work and give the Devil the day off.

(Quote)Albert-964084 said:
Hi Wendy, It seems that you know what you believe in and that you are secure in you...

(Quote)Albert-964084 said:

Hi Wendy, It seems that you know what you believe in and that you are secure in your faith. This is a good thing and I hope it comes from your own reflection on what it means to be catholic and not solely from what you have been told or heard. Undoubtedly what you have been told varies widely among the 1 billion catholics on earth, if there is a fallacy I have to believe that it is "a very narrow path to heaven". If there are not many paths then you must keep your faith very strong for the odds that only your path is the right path will make your heaven a very solitary one. To interpret words to a deep understanding within your soul is a very personal journey and only God knows wether this will lead us to heaven. In other words, we all interpret the Bible our way. Attending church and being catholic is vital to establishing a moral and ethical value system to live our lives through the example of jesus Christ but only a fool takes the word of another protestant or catholic as if it could be the word of God. We are of the Judeo/Christian tradition, and our word for God is "Yahweh", a ancient word which translates loosely into that whose name cannot be spoken or understood. As humans we are full of contradictions (even priests) so we must guide ourselves through this life and can only hope to do the right thing some of the time. Look at those comments that you see as contradictions and realize that they are simply the coherent statements of a man who believes that others can guide you in the wrong direction so you have to make your path and follow your heart because the holy spirit speaks through people and through you but only trust whats in your heart. If you don't, that is when you are vulnerable. When you pretend to know and lead people down the wrong path because you know the "truth", then you cease to do God's work and give the Devil the day off.

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" It seems that you know what you believe in and that you are secure in your faith. This is a good thing and I hope it comes from your own reflection on what it means to be catholic and not solely from what you have been told or heard"

Sigh. Albert. No, I'm not following my own reflections about what it means to be Catholic. That's like the old story of several blind men putting their hands on a different part of an elephant and then describing what an elephant must look like, according to "their" reflection. God is not like that. There's not many Gods. Our Catholic faith is NOT like that. In fact, I truly appreciate CM putting the famous 7 questions because it gives us a good idea of what someone understands and accepts about our faith.

If I am understanding all your posts correctly, not only do you believe having premarital sex is a personal decision, one of which we shouldn't allow "men" to tell us what to do (aka the leaders of our church), then my summary of your statement is that you must also not accept our church's teaching on contraception, correct? That is, unless you are willing to sire a quiver-full of children out of wedlock.

And then, if the contraception during your premarital sexual encounter(s) doesn't work, where do you fall with our church's teaching on Sanctity of Life (would you accept fatherhood and support the child and her mother? Or would you want her to have an abortion?)

And, since you feel we are supposed to interpret scripture on our own, let God speak to us, then my summary of your statement is that you must also not accept our church's teaching on Papal Infallibility, correct?

Being Catholic isn't about entering a building once a month, or even once a week. It's a lifestyle. One that needs to permeate us on a daily basis. It's who we are, all the time.

So for me, from the famous 7 questions that CM asks us to answer about our faith, I accept all the following:

Do you accept Church teaching on the Eucharist?

The Holy Eucharist is the real Presence (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) of Jesus Christ and that when one receives Holy Communion, Jesus comes into the heart to dwell.

Do you accept Church teaching on Contraception?

God designed conjugal love between a husband and wife to be a total giving of one to the other, and open to the transmission of life. Since acts of contraception are not selfless, not a total giving of one to the other and are not open to the transmission of life, contraception is inherently wrong.

Do you accept Church teaching on Sanctity of Life?

All life is sacred and each life, from the moment of conception to the moment of natural death, has a right to life, and therefore abortion, or any other method of barring a new life from implanting in its mother's womb or terminating a pregnancy is inherently wrong.

Do you accept Church teaching on Papal Infallibility?

The Pope holds the keys of Saint Peter and Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine for belief as being divinely revealed, and as the teaching of Christ, the doctrine must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.

Do accept Church teaching on Premarital Sex?

God has exclusively given the gift of intercourse to a man and woman who have pledged their lives to one another in marriage as a way of fully giving oneself to the other, being fully open to the transmission of life should God so choose to bestow this blessing.

Do you accept Church teaching on the Immaculate Conception?

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

Do you accept Church teaching on Holy Orders?

Only a baptized man can validly receive sacred ordination because the Lord Jesus chose men to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. Therefore, the Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself, and for this reason the ordination of women is not possible.