A lucid afterlife in dreamland would be cool. But if even with one functional brain the dreamer can have trouble maintaining his lucidness, how can we expect to have any sort of consciousness without one?

I'm not aiming to assassinate any beliefs here. I'm just putting a thought out there in my own pragmatic way.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

We would probably all agree that in order for an afterlife to be possible, our consciousness must exist separately from our brains. This has not been proven scientifically for sure, so it's only speculation. I don't know if that's related to why lucid dreaming is so hard.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

However unlikely an afterlife might seem in the face of neuroscientific evidence, you are right, it has not been ruled out. In fact, some scientists leave the door open. If there is one, I do not think it will be one where the deceased find God, deities, or devils. I don't think it is necessarily a happy reunion with lost loved ones either. If there is something after death, it might be something previously unimagined. I also don't think we would remember the life we lived and we probably would feel different as an individual, too.

Still, the existence of an afterlife does not require God or deities. I find the God concept more unacceptable. My atheism is justified by many points that would take too long to type but I will list Epicurean questions once pointed out by David Hume:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

David Hume... via Summerlander wrote:"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I love when pure logic and reason is used. How can anybody possibly refute this?

When it comes to afterlife, or in other words, consciousness existing beyond a physical and measurable brain..... that gets complicated because my knowledge of how it all works is limited.

But I like Hume's style. I'll think about it more and see if it can be answered with a series of "IF.... THEN.... Statements"It truly is the best way.

Summerlander wrote: If there is one, I do not think it will be one where the deceased find God, deities, or devils. I don't think it is necessarily a happy reunion with lost loved ones either. If there is something after death, it might be something previously unimagined. I also don't think we would remember the life we lived and we probably would feel different as an individual, too.

Agree with everything here. I think there might be some kind of a "resource pool" that we are part of, but I definitely don't believe in the traditional concept of "God". I also don't think we would remember our lives here and that our identity is something more or different than person we are here. If there is an afterlife, it would seem likely that this life is some sort of vehicle we are just using to get from one place to another.

Summerlander wrote:Still, the existence of an afterlife does not require God or deities. I find the God concept more unacceptable. My atheism is justified by many points that would take too long to type but I will list Epicurean questions once pointed out by David Hume:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I don't believe in the traditional religious concept of "God" or "good" and "evil", all of which I think are human inventions that attempt to simplify things. So the argument of "how could God allow evil" never made sense to me. Even when I believed in the traditional God, I never assumed that God would protect humans from their own stupidity, that would actually be counterproductive, they need to learn. I see humans as making mistakes, not being "evil" as I did when I was a christian. But I think a lot of Christianity (the biggest religion here in the U.S.) is so hypocritical and has nothing to do with what Jesus stood for anyway. They are so aligned with the conservative right wing here in the U.S., so involved in politics. Their gun toting, warmongering, anti-socialist agenda has almost nothing to do with Jesus Christ, that's for sure.

Last edited by lucidinthe sky on 28 Oct 2013 23:53, edited 1 time in total.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

lucidinthe sky wrote:I never assumed that God would protect humans from their own stupidity, that would actually be counterproductive, they need to learn.

This is just like parenting. I believe that all gods in all cultures stem from a psychological need to explain and learn about our surroundings which we get from our mothers and fathers. So we create gods in our own image to explain it and give them these parental personalities. Some are mothers figures, some are father figures. (Or in Greece and Rome is was like a soap opera for entertainment and story telling. Man! They had some family issues!). (There's some father son issues in the Bible too!) Sorry if I'm blasphemous.

But at the core of all this is trying to understand what happens after we die. That is important for those who think too much. And it also relates to the notion of an "astral plane" and collective consciousness and all this stuff. Forget all you thought you knew and look at reality again with no beliefs. If possible that's the best way to look at it fresh again.

The religious say that God created man is own image, but actually the opposite is true. Man creates God in his own image so you get this concept of a very human-like god, only with superpowers. And yes it is a very parental type of image, you have God the Father, God the Son, etc. I don't know about other religions, but Christianity is full of this parental kind of God. Personally, I think that religion, God, good and evil was meant to only be starting place, it is very much like a child/parent point of view. If we are spiritual beings, I would think we are at some point supposed to "grow up" and become more mature.

HAGART wrote: Forget all you thought you knew and look at reality again with no beliefs. If possible that's the best way to look at it fresh again.

I do this on a regular basis and it's actually quite a powerful experience for me. Having a fixed set of beliefs to me is very limiting, maybe what comes next is whatever you want it to be. And that's where it comes back to, no surprise, Lucid Dreams!

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

I see we more or less agree on the God debate. I just hope we don't tread on anyone's toes with our strong posts.

Even so, I might not believe in either but I must admit that astral projection makes more sense than a God, the creator.

One can argue that He could be teaching us, but, why can't He just do it in the blink of an eye and makes see His way? Oh, that's right! He didn't want us eating from the tree of knowledge! We also must pray and kneel before Him to beg like slaves if we want His approval and wish for our lives to run smoothly.

Meanwhile, Neo downloads kung fu into his brain in a matter of seconds, something scientists say can happen in principle. So can the Total Recall scenario where we can have any identity or memories we want.

Why couldn't God just make us all see His light? Why condemn some sinners with eternal damnation when He made them sinful in the first place? Why not just change them and make them good? He is omnipotent, isnt He?

Hence why God is man-made, a concept that shoots itself in the foot. In the Bible, He is not only too human, He appears to possess all the horrible traits an individual could have: He is homicidal, genocidal, selfish, jealous, sadistic, immoral, amoral, a bit dim, negligent, condones child rape and abuse, His tests aren't funny and are unnecessary (why test if He knows everything), gambles with human life (wager with Satan) and has favourites among His children. Also, He sends His only "begotten" son to purge all of mankind's sins. And innocent man made to pay the price of torture and the death penalty while criminals get away with it scott free.

That is the opposite of justice, is it not? Why follow a God who orders you around like a dictator and threatens you with hell whilst bribing you with a heaven? No thanks.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

I think the only ones reading this far in the thread are a select few, so we don't have to walk on eggshells quite so much. I agree with all the atheistic religious views, but I'm still agnostic because of a few things. I am really just a dumb monkey after all. And we all are!

Religion aside, let's get back to what's more important. I have met people in my lucid dreams that seem to be more knowing than I am. They seem omniscient, and seem self aware and they don't always take on the form of people and sometimes they arrive in groups.

I have anecdotal stories of this. I personally think that they are aspects of my own unexplored mind, but they really make you wonder. I have never felt more 'spiritual' or 'closer to God' than when I am around them.

This was my question to Rebecca in another post:How do you explain a self aware dream character separate from yourself in a lucid dream?

(I start to question who is 'yourself' in that sentence........... it gets deep)

If someone can prove that they are NOT coming from my own mind, then that would prove that there IS such a thing as extraterrestrial deities or guardian angels or astral planes. It just means that I am not who I thought I was and there is a deeper level to my psychosis.... er I mean psychology!

I would love to prove it one way or another beyond a shadow of a doubt. What would Hume say, because that was brilliant. I should ask a DC in a dream and see what they themselves say. (They've been avoiding me ever since I tried exploring THEIR minds and it's been a few months!) I've been trying to figure this out though. I am a confused oneironaut! But I feel I'm on to something....

(MY EDIT: I messed up with some "Not's" and "No's" and made a double negative. Now it almost makes sense.... I wish I could word things better, and will work on that!)

HAGART wrote:Religion aside, let's get back to what's more important. I have met people in my lucid dreams that seem to be more knowing than I am. They seem omniscient, and seem self aware and they don't always take on the form of people and sometimes they arrive in groups.

I have anecdotal stories of this. I personally think that they are aspects of my own unexplored mind, but they really make you wonder. I have never felt more 'spiritual' or 'closer to God' than when I am around them.

As you know, I have this experience too. I also have DCs that show up and will just hold my hand or hug me and it feels incredibly good in a "spiritual" way. They can still be parts of ourselves and maybe at the same be connected to something else. Maybe they are our "interfaces" with ...

Let's explore and find out.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus