Theresa May calls for Brexit compromise from both sides

LONDON — Prime Minister Theresa May challenged Brussels and her own party's hardline Brexiteers to face up to the unpleasant realities of Britain's imminent divorce from Europe and seek a compromise.

In a highly anticipated speech at Mansion House in the City of London, May invoked “hard facts,” admitting that “in certain ways our access to each other’s market will be less than they are now” and that the European Court of Justice would continue to have an indirect impact on U.K. law.

In a marked shift in tone she said there was “no escaping the complexity of the task ahead of us” and that uncertainty would be "inherent" to the months ahead.

The address was intended to unblock a political impasse in London and a diplomatic impasse in Brussels, but early reviews suggest that she had a better hearing at home than on the Continent.

“If this is cherry-picking then every free trade agreement is cherry-picking,” she said. "What would be cherry picking would be to seek a deal where our rights and obligations were not held in balance."

On the key issue of future customs arrangement with the EU and the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, May ruled out a customs union between the U.K. and the EU saying that such an arrangement would restrict the country’s ability to set tariff rates in trade deals with non-EU countries.

She fell back on two proposals for a future customs arrangement that were set out in a position paper published by the government in August, but have been largely ignored by Brussels. On the Irish border, she said that technological solutions, trusted trader schemes and other measures could avoid a hard border.

The lack of new proposals on either point is likely to disappoint Dublin and Brussels. The EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that border checks on the island of Ireland are “unavoidable” outside of the single market and the customs union.

May also called for the U.K. to have associate membership of EU agencies, the European Medicines Agency, European Chemicals Agency and European Aviation Safety Agency. The EMA is currently located in London but is moving to Amsterdam because of the U.K.'s decision to leave the EU.

The speech had been billed as the moment May would outline where the U.K. would align and where it would diverge from EU rules.

Some more details were forthcoming, with the outlines of a future, in which the U.K. aligns with the EU, but has the authority and independence to diverge if it wants to, beginning to emerge.

On the trade in goods, May said that she did want to see the introduction of any tariffs, and repeated Brexit Secretary David Davis’s call for a system of “mutual recognition” of U.K. and EU regulatory standards between the two sides.

She said that U.K. law in this area would not necessarily be the same as EU law in this area “but it should achieve the same outcomes” and that U.K. and EU standards would “remain substantially similar in the future” — a message that will please supporters of a softer Brexit in her Cabinet and party.

If, however, a future U.K. parliament decided it did not want to achieve the same regulatory outcome to maintain frictionless trade with the EU in a particular area, it would be free to do so, May said — in full knowledge “that there may be consequences for our market access.”

Key to the deal will be the U.K.’s level of access for its world-leading financial services sector. May set out a similar model here, saying she wanted “to establish the ability to access each others’ markets, based on the UK and EU maintaining the same regulatory outcomes over time,” and with a mechanism for either side to face “consequences” if that parity of regulatory standards was not maintained.

“We would need a collaborative, objective framework that is reciprocal, mutually agreed, and permanent and therefore reliable for businesses,” she said, adding that the Chancellor Philip Hammond would set out more detail on the U.K.’s proposals in a speech next week.

Anna Soubry, a leading figure among the band of pro-EU Conservative rebel MPs told the BBC that the speech represented an “acceptance” from May that the Brexit she wants will be “incredibly complex” and would “not deliver the same benefits to our economy as we currently have.”

“Frankly the British people need to look at this and say: ‘do I really want all of this, is this what I voted for’,” she added.

Democratic Unionist Party leader Arlene Foster welcomed the speech and in particular May's commitment to keeping the United Kingdom together. "Securing a sensible outcome for everyone will require the EU27 to consider innovative solutions rather than rule out any proposal which has not been conceived in Brussels," she said.

Initial reaction from Brussels was not warm. Manfred Weber, who leads the largest group in the European Parliament, the European Peoples' Party, and is a key ally of Angela Merkel tweeted: "After what I have heard today I am even more concerned. I don't see how we could reach an agreement on #Brexit if the UK government continues to bury its head in the sand like this."

Elmar Brok, a senior MEP and member of the European Parliament’s Brexit Steering Group told POLITICO that May’s speech included only “hints of where she wants to move,” and “no clarity.”

“There is a clear legal text. Now we want counter-proposals from May and her government, article by article,” he said. “We have to sit down, not deliver speeches, and refusals to negotiate."

Brok acknowledged however that May had made some progress on some areas, including accepting “in a way that EU regulations should be considered in certain cases.”

The European Parliament's Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt said: "Theresa May needed to move beyond vague aspirations, we can only hope that serious proposals have been put in the post."

"While I welcome the call for a deep and special partnership, this cannot be achieved by putting a few extra cherries on the Brexit cake. Our relationship must be close and comprehensive, but this is only possible if the UK Government understands that the EU is a rules based organisation, as there is little appetite to renegotiate the rules of the single market to satisfy a compromise crafted to placate a divided Conservative party," he said.

The reaction from the British business lobby was initially muted. Adam Marshall, director general of the British Chambers of Commerce praised May’s “ambition and determination” but said U.K. firms “will still have to wait for some of the detail they need to plan ahead with confidence.”

“The practical issues that matter for business and trade must now become the absolute priority. The time for high-level statements is over, and attention must now turn to the painstaking process of getting the details right,” he said.

Steuersklaverei

EU to UK: Hand over your territory and give the CJEU supremacy over out nationals in the UK and we may graciously grant you a Canada-style trade deal.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:21 PM CET

Tabulazero

Yeaa… right… it’s not cherry picking… it’s just the UK chosing the bits it likes. See the difference ?

Maybot on autopilot. Yawn.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:22 PM CET

Tabulazero

blah… blah… we want to leave… blah… blah… but we do not want the things to change… blah… blah… and by the way we still want to have a say in what you guys do on the otherside of the Channel… blah… blah… but no we do not want to subject to the same rules as you… blah… blah… because we are special… blah… blah

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:26 PM CET

Saintixe

European agencies access is cherry picking.

You leave.

When you divorce, you stop getting invited to your in laws holiday home.

Simple.

This is intended both ways in case some believe this is only about Britain.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:28 PM CET

Saintixe

By the way we are all welcome to the consequences of Irish hard borders.
Because they are coming. Denial can last so long.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:30 PM CET

Tabulazero

Mmmm…. TM calling on foreign journalists on a first name basis… totally not planted or prepared. Pure coincidence that she recognized Kristen in the crowd.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:36 PM CET

Scorpio

This is the best joke of the day!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:40 PM CET

lesley miller

Our PM is being too nice its as if she is frightened to upset the master race, well I can assure Europe that if we cannot find agreement we will make the agreement to English satisfaction, one gets sick of trying to deal with loser’s

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:41 PM CET

Tabulazero

God…. it’s painful to watch… and even more to hear.

If its the best she can come up with, then it is hopless

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:41 PM CET

Europe means peace and love

no hard border but a soft or semi hard border ? no border like ‘befote’ but A border, isn’t ?

No cherry picking but a little bit like in any trade deal ?

something in between…. blah blah blah

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:42 PM CET

Tabulazero

So. The speech is over. It’s been more than a year since referendum. The UK is one year away from leaving and what have we learnt today ?

Sweet nothing…

That’s laughable.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:44 PM CET

klv

nothing new usual bla bla she was better off to don t waste her and other people time

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:51 PM CET

Tabulazero

@Jack
You mean the way forward is to elect someone who is not able to take decision ?

… Weird… but you are quite weird anyway.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 3:51 PM CET

PJ HANNIGAN

a la carte is not on the EU menu, that has been made clear again and again

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:06 PM CET

François P

Full on cherry picking … hopeless!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:09 PM CET

Anthony Chambers

@PJ HANNIGAN: Really? Are sure about that. There are only about 8 countries in the EU that have signed up to everything. I think you will find that the continent of Europe is entirely full of special cases and cherry picking.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:11 PM CET

Finn

@Steuersklaverei

You truly are like a bad rash buddy.

Your ignorance and stupidity is wearing thin. I am not sure what makes a man publicly show his deficient cognitive abilities, but I can tell you: it ain’t pretty.

How about you let this Brexit roll on without your input. It might not get any better to be sure, but it would make these pages less tedious.

Yet, I promise I will be here to make absolutely certain that cretins like you do not get a free ride — nor to opine without being called out on your lies.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:11 PM CET

Finn

@Anthony Chambers

Are you slow buddy?

EU’s internal haggling and horse trading is one thing — our attitude towards ‘third countries’ is based on common policy.

Fking 44 years as a member of the club — and you still do not have the most basic facts in a row.

#sad

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:16 PM CET

PaulM

@Saintixe

May proposed associate member access to the European agencies, with the UK making contributory payments. This is also good for the EU – money as well as certain expertise that we have. It’s called working together, cooperation, acting like adults. But we’re talking about the EU here, aren’t we? It ‘s all about damage control and making it unattractive for other members to leave.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:22 PM CET

Anthony Chambers

@Finn: So all the FTA’s the EU has all look the same do they? And all the European Neighbourhood agreements are similar? Give me a break. If you can name 2 European Countries not in the EU that have the same relationship with the EU I would be incredibly impressed. For that matter, if you could name 2 developed countries with the same relationship that would do the job.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:23 PM CET

pill46

This speech only makes more evident that either Theresa May has no idea of what she wants, or she wants whatever suits the moment in order to maintain her party and herself in power. For nearly two years after the referendum she insisted there would be no difference in access to the single market. Same about the Irish border. Now, facing the wall, she equivocates about both. She is the worst PM in living memory, in charge of the most important decision for the country since WWII.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:26 PM CET

Helghart

Manfred Weber’s reaction at the bottom of this article says it all.

This was more of the same. Glad that the EU published their draft on Wednesday: Let’s plan for a crash Brexit and no transition.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:27 PM CET

Priscilla du Bleu

@Steuersklaverei
“EU to UK: Hand over your territory and give the CJEU supremacy over out nationals in the UK and we may graciously grant you a Canada-style trade deal.”

It’s nice to see that the penny has finally dropped 😀 … spot on. You got it.

Expect more of the same feon the U.S., China, Canada, Russia….. etc.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:37 PM CET

François P

I believe that T May knows perfectly well that her proposals are deep in fantasy territory. But that was the only way to prevent war from erupting within the Conservative party. I also suspect her sherpas are working hard behind the scenes to shape – to the extent possible- the EU negotiating mandate for the future trade relationship. That negotiating mandate is what will really set the tone of the talks.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:40 PM CET

Priscilla du Bleu

Should read “from in the last sentence

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:42 PM CET

Saintixe

@Paul M
Thing is I am in favour of hard Brexit. I want EU to prove it can survive without UK.
I want to see closer union and I am not comfortable carrying on giving access to a country which refuses ECJ input in bodies ruled by ECJ

As simple as this. Britain refuses ECJ. Fair enough. Britain cannot join EU agencies which are under the ECJ tutelage.

Cake Eat Keep. Go Whistle as per dear Boris. May red lines are just as much red lines for EU.

This is called consistency.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:45 PM CET

Anthony Chambers

@François P: Look whatever works, this is like a 4 dimensional chess. There are a lot of different interested parties. Just please understand that there is no way around this, Brexit cannot be reversed and certain things were said in that referendum by both parties that rule out many options that you might consider sensible.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:47 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ Priscilla du Bleu

‘Expect more of the same feon the U.S., China, Canada, Russia….. etc.’

Blimey! So if the EU annexes Northern Ireland, what are these other powers left with? Does Canada annex Scotland, China annex Wales, USA annex England, and perhaps Russia annex London (for its own oligarchs)?

I think the EU is getting a poor deal in this imperialist frenzy. You would be better off demanding London be annexed to the EU, seeing as London after Brexit will control your currency.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:49 PM CET

Just Once

@Jack Boot

“It IS the future of the EU, a looser conglomeration of independent trading sovereign states.
The UK has shone the way forward for all member states.”

Your vision for the EU’s future is spot on for 1946. It all started with this vision but we moved on since. Don’t get me wrong, by any means stay where you are – we leave in democratic times.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 4:53 PM CET

Finn

@Anthony Chambers

Well,

Contrary to commonly held opinion in the UK, the EU staff is rather professional and able.

We do deals with our partners in a manner that is furthering our (EU) aims and interests — and those of our partners. Kinda basic stuff, right?

We will do the same with you, no worry. Just that you will not get to a position, where you can undermine the EU. Your reputation precedes you.

Once we have you boxed in, so that you can do no harm to others — by throwing nationalistic tantrums in the name of English exceptionalism, we sort out practical matters.

People and nations need to be trustworthy. Your Brexitology cult ain’t that — and your leaders do not instill confidence either.

Finn

The EU is doing exactly that. Preparing for no deal. It will be a little bumpy for us, no matter what we do, but more than manageable.

I do hope though, that UK gets its act together. Having listened to ex PMs Sir John and Tony last night, I kinda remembered that there are decent people in the UK as well.

For the Brexit cultists I have no more patience. These idiots are to be shot down on sight — metaphorically speaking, huh.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:00 PM CET

Jacqueline Vaseline

the Brexit problem could be solved with the annexation or the Republic of Ireland to the UK haha… Russia did the same with Crimea and the EU did nothing

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:00 PM CET

wow

@finn

Only you (on another thread) and the EU (like Barnier the other day huffing off) are having a tantrum.

It doesn’t matter if you pro-eu guys here cannot or will nor accept that ALL FTA’s are cherrypicking… she said it to the world. And the world does trade deals and knows she is speaking perfectly normally.

The truth is you guys KNOW an FTA is ‘cherrypicking’ and that we *are* getting one. That’s why you all keep going NUTS and having tantrums about us ‘JUST LEAVE and GO!’ and the like. @Helghart specifically cannot cope with the fact a CETA FTA has been offered – even though Barnier shown **every news outlet in the world** his little ‘graph’ of UK options which… included CETA- poor Hleghart denies every news outlet in the world!

You guys are really losing it.

It’s great entertainment. Carry on.

UK is happy to patiently help your education of what FTA’s are and what they do. It is the EU who do not want everyone in the EU to find out.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:08 PM CET

eric strudwick

How long ago was it the the PM told us that there would not be a running commentary on negotiations?
Now we seem to be getting only the commentary without the negotiations! If the PM has serious proposals she (or her minister) should sit down with the EU and discuss them.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:09 PM CET

Finn

@Steuersklaverei

Like a rabid dog with a bone.

No one needs to annex anything. Let Brexit be hard and look how NI, Scotland and Gibraltar will find a new found independence streak.

Then Wales and London will get in the act. By 2030 it will be all done, but you probably are dead by then. Brexit was and is an old peoples idea.

Ah, them silver linings.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:09 PM CET

wow

**the more the EU kick up a fuss and act ‘confused’ …. the more EVERYONE in the EU will know what an FTA is and why the EU is not needed by member states or their citizen’s.

Do Carry on dear chaps!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:10 PM CET

wow

@Finn

‘let brexit be hard’

Case in point. You do somewhere in your brain understand WHAT an FTA and what is does (cherrypicks). You are having a tantrum again dear!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:11 PM CET

Finn

@wow

Kiddo,

Damn, here is was hoping your mom took your PC privileges away for a day.

Ah well, hope springs eternal.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:12 PM CET

wow

@eric

Ermmm. THE EU HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO NEGOTIATE SINCE DECEMBER.

THE EU.

THE EU.

THE EU.

Google it dear (has to do with a certain shambolic government that sells dodgy cars)

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:14 PM CET

YellowSubmarine

An excellent speech by May, not only does it highlight what UK wants in a bespoke deal but also shows why there is no reasonable technical or political reason not to.

I would imagine EU will now switch from the line ‘we need more detail’ to ‘this has never been done before’.

Brussels now has to face up to some hard facts, pursue an ideologically failed experiment and refuse to continue significant cooperation or try a more pragmatic approach.

Brussels will much prefer the former but the individual nations will be much less keen. 😉

Expect Barnier to be put on a leash shortly by EU nations, along with Juncker and Tusk.

In other news UK has been praised by IMF for running a current budget surplus as tax revenues cover all day to day spending, the surplus came in at £3.8bn for 2017. – The International Monetary Fund said Britain set an example for other countries to follow in slashing the deficit by cutting public spending, rather than raising taxes. –
“Following the financial crisis, the two countries that adopted spending-based austerity and did better than the rest of the sample were Ireland and the UK,” the IMF report said. – “The result: growth in the United Kingdom was higher than the European average.” – It is increasingly important that other countries copy this approach, the IMF said, as Governments around the world have racked up too much debt which will harm growth and stifle productivity when interest rates rise.

So, £3.8 billion in UK’s back pocket already and still to save the $12 billion per year EU bailout money.

Lets get the party started. 😉

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:14 PM CET

wow

@Finn

Hoping one day you would have an intelligent answer.

Oh well, I never did have hope for you, so I have lost nothing,

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:14 PM CET

Helghart

@Francois @Anthony

Francois, what is different from her equally inconsequential speeches in the last 12 months is the fact that the EU will not move on to future relationship talks without first putting the December agreement into legal language.
This is smart policy and politics in a number of ways, not the least as it reflects a basic insight: If the UK government cannot be functional enough to sign a simple agreement, then there is no way they will be functional (competent, politically unified – you choose your adjectives) enough to negotiate a complex trade deal.

Sadly, I see no chance for this to advance: The EU27 and the UK will not even get past phase 1. The UK will scream and throw tantrum and declare that it was unfair to insist on completion of 1 before getting to 2. The EU will…resign and move on.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:15 PM CET

tony

Anthony Chambers

There are some 40 to 50 known trade agreements the EU has signed with other states. They are very different in scope because of the size of the third party or their trade requirements, so not all are at all comparable to what we might seek. However they serve to demonstrate the diversity of the agreements that other states have ‘cherry picked’ to everyone’s benefit. (For ‘cherry picked’ read ‘negotiated like adults’.

So there are plenty of bespoke options and it is not unreasonable to expect that the EU’s best customer and with whom they have a massive 90 billion a year trade surplus, will mutually agree something that will enhance the lives of both EU and UK citizens.

If the EU won’t give their best customer a mutually beneficial good deal we must assume that the politics of the EU hierarchy trumps good sense and concerns over their citizens livelihoods.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:16 PM CET

wow

@yellowsubmarine

Whole world looking at the EU whilst it gets ‘confused’ by a simple FTA.

I love it.

Genuinely. It’s great!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:16 PM CET

wow

she should say (but she’s too polite)…

…it’s…

…called…

…an….

…FTA….

you… see… children…. let … me …

..explain…

what… that..

is….

for…

you….

dear….

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:18 PM CET

wow

@helghart..

is having fantasies again about things that haven’t happened except in his head.

Tis a shame for sure.

Shhhh! (He thinks HE HIMSELF runs the EU27 but don’t him he doesn’t – it will break his heart!)

— Have a lovely day now Helghart!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:20 PM CET

kermelen

“UK’s Brexit approach is not ‘cherry picking’”

We are told once again what Brexit will not be. What we are still not being told is what it will be.

There is “no escaping from the complexity of the task ahead”, Mrs May also said.

The new EU/UK relationship Mrs May is still trying to formulate seems much more complex than it ever was when the UK was a member of the EU.

And this is quite a paradox as Brexit was clearly a vote against the complexity of the multilateral relations within the EU, in my understanding.

But compared to what Mrs May is now preparing, the current EU internal affairs seems so much simpler.

It’s time to stop the drifting away andreturn to the basics of Brexit. That was to leave the EU institutions. But staying within a Customs Union with the EU to spare the British jobs and save us all from the unbearable complexity of Mrs May’s a la carte Brexit.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:23 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ Finn

‘No one needs to annex anything’

That statement makes you more moderate than the EU Commission. I expect both of us must be shocked.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:24 PM CET

Europe means peace and love

re: future FTA. This is the most important thing… meaning do you really want to destroy uk economy aso ? so let it be, then…. oops

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:27 PM CET

wow

@kermelen

‘ What we are still not being told is what it will be…’

Having a LOW IQ and not understanding her when she was talking as though you were CHILDREN about very BASIC things about the nature of an FTA…is not a good troll tactic. Can;t wait for EU to say the same! We will publish a BOOK for you like this one if you need telling again!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:28 PM CET

wow

Next document format to EU to explain what an FTA is:

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:28 PM CET

wow

@europe means war is peace…

Understanding 2 years later is better then never at all. I’m proud of you. Have some gold stars 😉 eh eh see what I did there…

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:31 PM CET

Anthony Chambers

@Helghart: Look, we have an agreement from December. I am sure that the UK government along with the support of the Irish government will now go away and actually make a legal document that reflects what was agreed. Then we can replay it back to you.

Then I am sure you will all say we are evil and have not understood what was agreed.

On reflection, tpk was correct, it was after all only a draft. A bit unusual to publish now, but I see now that it was done for political effect.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:54 PM CET

Peter g

This much is true, both sides are not going to get everything they want. But one side is going to get almost everything it wants. and one side is going to get almost nothing of what it wants. Guess which is which?

Mind you a deep philosophical question arises with regard to the non-existent border with Ireland. Without having actual border controls or stopping traffic to check, how exactly would you know that only trusted traders were crossing that invisible non-existent border? Or undesirable people for that matter?

Posted on 3/2/18 | 5:58 PM CET

Anthony Chambers

@kermelen: You are missing the logic of the situation. The politics of all the declarations made during the referendum campaign mean that certain things are completely off bounds. Things like the jurisdiction of the ECJ and the requirement to have the ability to have different immigration rules (that will probably not change very much at all, btw).

If start looking at things through those lenses, it will be more clear. I have said for a very long time, you will probably be amazed at how similar things will be for companies and people afterwards, even if the political structures are completely different.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:00 PM CET

Helghart

@Anthony

Well, that ought to be the next step, don’t you think? You as the UK -and feel free to get help from the Irish, as you suggest- will have to get concrete, for once. You put together a detailed counter-proposal…a counter-DRAFT…that could be a legally binding document.
Then we have two visions that can be negotiated. And maybe there is a solution – or maybe all sides realize, based on concrete data, that they will have to plan for the crash Brexit.

We will see what next week and beyond- will bring. My guess is that the EU has finally given up hope -Barnier’s tweet after the speech was ominous- and will move forward aggressively. That might help get rid of May -or it might not. But at least the EU side will use 12 months to soften the blow of an unorderly exit.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:02 PM CET

Antoine

Theresa:
“Cake and eat it: the meal can start”
We will see how the EU handles this
“Ireland: we don’t have a solution but we will be creative”
Need to abide by WTO rules. How? no answer since referendum. Article 49 and 50 will apply (SM CU either NI or whole UK, UK choice)
Financial services “we don’t want passporting rights”
Indeed was expected as don’t want regulations
Trade “Want complex bespoke deal”
Such deals with limited scope take 5 to 10 years min.
+ HMRC claimed it needs at least 5 years to implement the complex new deal on trade.
Consequence: Transition to take 12-15 years
During this transition: need to roll all EU/rest of world deals and then to negotiate new ambitious trade deals for the long term (after transition)

EU understanding
– Don’t bother to engage.
– There is no guarantee Theresa would get any deal through
– There will be another 3 or 4 elections until deal implemented
– UK will have many opportunity to change its mind especially once we reach December 2020 and end of 1st transition.
– Promises a great nego for transition for 2021-7… and then for the next budget cycle

Key problem is that TM ambitions are too big to swallow by her own administration…

Come October, there will be pressure to conclude withdrawal agreement… cliff approaching and no preparation for it. Big decisions to be made.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:03 PM CET

wow

@peterG

You have been told an FTA like CETA elimiantes 98% of border checks and solves NI. Irlenad/NI and GB all agree: 98% is enough.

Low IQ and having to repeat to you like a small child is not a good look dear.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:03 PM CET

wow

@Anthony

I made a 188 page draft document once.

Nobody signed it.

Sometimes I take it out my draw and read it for a while.

Then I put it back.

I think I hear people laughing at me sometimes. But it’s just in my head I hope.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:05 PM CET

wow

@antione

The EU are a laughing stock either way (for a trading bloc especially!!!!)

1) keep pretending they don’t know what an FTA is to their citizen’s while world leaders laugh.

or

2) say no FTA anymore and admit they are scared of us and our strengths : and conversely just how weak they are.

I’m Good with either!

This is great!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:07 PM CET

wow

@Anthony

…. I think I hear Switzerland laughing at me too…

…..

… and the USA….

… and Poland…..

…and Hungary…..

….

…

And the Ruskies…..

…..

and Norway……

……

and Turkey…….

….

etc….

Is anyone listening? I’m crying for help.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:12 PM CET

Helghart

@Anthony @kermelen

And Anthony, your argument is very problematic: Even if the Brexit promises by the Leave campaign were as specific as you claim and could not be changed (what about those extra funds for the NHS? Weren’t there buses all through London promising extra cash? Looks like you had a pretty bad winter flu season…made the news even in US papers…anyone upset about the broken promise?) you are still mixing up cause and effect:
The EU27 does not care one bit -and May tried this argument right before that picture was taken…TM alone with three flower pots in Brussels- whether May feels boxed in or beholden to Leave voters. That is her domestic problem. YOUR domestic problem.
If she believes in those ideas and feels beholden to them, then she cannot waver: In this spirit, the EU27 welcomes a clear statement as in “No CU/SM, absolutely no chance for it.”
This automatically means what the EU has said all along: Borders and barriers.

Many politicians in the UK -from Major to Blair to current ones- recognize that this is such a monumental decision that traditional rules…I campaigned on a new tax rebate for farmers, now I have to honor it…do not apply here.
Country before party, and national well being before listening to 52%.

But again: If she is a true believer in the Leave cause – great. She should lead and she will get a crash Brexit, hopefully soon so that all sides can prepare. If she is not and simply tries to hang on to power: Shame on her.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:13 PM CET

Anthony Chambers

@Helghart: Every survey (except 1 about 5 months ago) has indicated that absolutely nothing has changed. If asked again, the majority of people would vote to leave. You cannot get around that, there is no way to fluff that away. And the arguments have not changed at all. There opinion polls have literally not moved one millimeter.

So in the domestic politics of the UK, those central themes might as well be physical laws of nature. They are unbreakable without completely bringing down the government. The problem you would have if the EU tried even harder than it currently is to try to bring about the end of the government is the mathematics of the house of commons and the survival instinct of the conservative party. They will not make another unforced error regarding an election. If you force May into a corner, you will get a Brexiteer, be certain of it. If you think Labour is going to make it any better for you, again think again, Corbin is more anti-EU than Boris Johnson.

In reality Theresa May realistically is the closest to a Remainer that you will get. If you want a pro-EU relationship with the UK, take this deal. Otherwise, if you just want to punish us, it will be WTO all round.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:26 PM CET

wow

@Helghart

‘Many politicians in the UK -from Major to Blair to current ones..’

Nobody cares about the nobodies you keep relying on for subjective ‘opinions’.

and it’s EX politicians dear.

Yesterday it was an Irish historian who solved the Irish border by EU annexing NI that you pinning your hopes on as a good idea??

Nobody cared.

Look up David Starkey’s opinion’s on leaving UK dear! hehe. He’s BBC/Cambridge historian. And that’s SIR david Starkey to you. See if you like his views too. 😉

…. yes just select ‘opinions’ that you like well… we’re all like that .. it’s normal dear.. just stop shoving it down everyone else’s throat like we have to agree. You’re entitled to your opinion (in your case other people’s) but your not entitled to your own facts. Comprehend?

Thus, the negotiating mandate of the EU is heading towards a Canada-like FTA. Fine as far as I am concerned. I very much doubt that British business will be happy with that.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:29 PM CET

wow

@helghart

please learn difference between FACTUAL EVENTS and OPINION.

Thanks.

It will make you throw less temper tantrums.

I’m only thinking of you.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:30 PM CET

Peter G

Curiously enough Wow, I live on just such a border between the US and Canada. And guess what? They check 100 per cent of the people crossing it, both ways and all the time. Now I am Canadian but my wife is an American citizen and we have crossed that border literally thousands of times. And never once without being interrogated as to who we are and what the purpose of our business might be.

Thus, the negotiating mandate of the EU is heading towards a Canada-like FTA.’

>>>>>Don’t tell @Helghart.

He goes nuts if you tell him the EU is doing a CETA type FTA with UK. He outright denies it, even with proof. It’s quite funny that you posted it for me today!!

Haha!

Thanks!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:33 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ Anthony Chambers

I agree entirely with your last comment to Helghart. Even though WTO trading rules are normally nothing really to get enthusiastic about, they do provide two advantages for the UK, one temporary and the the other strategic.

The temporary advantage is the chance to close the huge trade deficit that the UK suffers with the rest of the EU (and to achieve a temporary fiscal boost from tariffs which could be used to offset the added costs facing UK exporters into the EU market).

The strategic advantage is offered by future trade agreements. Normally trading partners would want to see the state of play in EU-UK trade before agreeing to free trade deals. If the UK strikes a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, then the natural response of trade negotiators from the USA, China, etc. will be ‘Give us what you’ve given the EU’. If the UK has given the EU nothing (i.e, just WTO terms), this gives the UK much more leverage with other countries.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:35 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ Francois P

The problem is that even a Canada-style deal can’t happen until the EU’s ‘Phase 1’ problems have been solved. The EU has demanded the annexation of Northern Ireland and it’s hard to see how the EU can back down from this aggressive demand without looking weak.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:40 PM CET

Helghart

@Anthony

There is no deal to take, Anthony. For the EU27, it is far more important to maintain the integrity of their union than anything – anything!- that could happen to Britain.

This is the miscalculation by many in the UK: You thought you could somehow get your bespoke deal by arguing that “it is in the best interest of both countries”. You missed the fact that it is an existential interest of the EU to have a strong and clear distinction between INSIDE EU and OUTSIDE EU.

I take your analysis of the UK at face value: Not so sure about your statistics (I have seen polls that do see a shift towards Remain, but be that as it may) but let’s say they are exactly correct. Now you and so many other in the UK need to learn to listen and understand the EU position – a glaring deficit. I guess everyone in Brussels reads British newspapers but nobody in the UK reads French/German/Dutch/Italian/Spanish ones.

I assume that the unorderly exit will be a major political strain for the West -not just Europe but also NATO and everything else the free world has created after 1945- but that over time this will soften given shared interests in security and human rights and many other areas. So let’s hope for clarity this month, an end to this absurd Kabuki theater – and 12 months to plan for the exit.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:41 PM CET

:o)

The cheek of Treeza…we want to stay in those agencies because we feel our expertise will benefit the EU…. What a larf.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:41 PM CET

wow

PeterG

We are talking about goods checks. CETA eliminates 98% of goods checks for EU/CAN. Canadian CITIZEN’s are still checked for flights!!! despite the FTA. You are confused.

The COMMON TRAVEL AREA (a 1920 Treaty between UK and Ireland) eliminates citizen checks. THE CTA is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement.

The USA/CAN does not have the CTA. UK and Ireland have since 1920. The Irish can vote in the UK, their passport is THE SAME and gives the same privilge as a UK passport and citizenship and vice versa since 1920.

It’s two things that the pro-eu on here get confused with.

The EU are unhappy with the CTA but it is in the Good Friday Agreement and still GB/NI and Ireland wish the CTA to remain – so the EU are starting to throw tantrums.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:45 PM CET

wow

@PeterG

in short because you act very silly sometimes… CETA does not allow a Canadian Citizen’s to just walk into the EU without a passport.

You are confused.

CETA does allows 98% of goods to not need any checking though.

Please educate yourself as to what an FTA is, then come back.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:48 PM CET

Saintixe

All this waste of time for WTO or FTA.

Personally WTO is better for EU as it makes it clear to RoW there will be no renegotiation with third countries.
Importantly : no services.
EU loses UK contribution. UK loses benefits of financial EU related services.
Fair and square by me.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:53 PM CET

wow

*free movement of GOODS not people = FTA

PEOPLE/citizenship in Ireland/UK are covered by the 1920 CTA though enshrined in the GTA.

Both together = no hard border.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:53 PM CET

Helghart

@Francois @wow

Barnier’s tweet…Wow, you have been clueless all along so no surprise that you got this one wrong, as well.
What Barnier says in this tweet is the diplomatic equivalent of a dire warning: The EU will, now that it is clear that a CU is not an option for May, change its negotiating stance to REFLECT THAT.
Meaning: Yes, as unpopular as this may be in the UK, the draft statement from earlier in the week will now cross out all the niceties and stick with the “YOU WILL BE THIRD COUNTRY” parts. Including the suggestion for a sea border.

As Steuer correctly states -and I next to never agree with him- this will make future relationship discussions much, much harder. Crash Brexit it is – and just as Steuer I like the clarity. Unlike Steuer, I think it is an insane choice for UK businesses and its people – just as my president’s start of a trade war yesterday was an insane choice which will hurt us the people- but at least there is clarity now.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:55 PM CET

wow

@saintixw

I tried to tell you a LONG LONG time ago that it is just a simple FTA.

A LONG time ago!!

You should really apologise if the penny has finally dropped.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:55 PM CET

wow

@helghart

Poor Helghart even attacking the pro-eu as stupid now for posting Barnier today confirming FTA.

Even with proof a CETA FTA happening.

He’s lost it bless him.

All be nice to him. It’s cruel to take the p1$$.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 6:57 PM CET

The Scot

Following the PMs speech the devil will as always be in the detail but from the events of this week I would say as a leaver the following has happened –
The EU seriously over reached itself with regard to the attempt to annex a part of the UK via a transparently foolishly drafted legal document. Not only did this alienate an even larger proportion of the UK public it also managed to unite the Tory party more than would have been thought possible – the Tory party’s full name is the Conservative & Unionist party. In addition the Labour party in adopting its Customs Union position has betrayed a large proportion of its non-metropolitan core vote – the numerous visits of Keir Starmer to Brussels to co-ordinate with the Commission have not gone unnoticed.

I would think that in the UK only the extreme leavers/remainers will not have been happy with what the PM said. I appreciate from the European point of view things may seem different but you will have to live with the fact that today Theresa developed on her pragmatic view of the possible future relationship which not only honours the referendum result but also should work in both the interests of the UK & 27 member countries – I omit the Commission as nothing the UK can or will do short of being a vassal state would satisfy the Commission & that is just not going to happen.

The 27 countries have the choice – do you want to have a close & mutually beneficial partnership with the UK or do you want to try & inflict punishment that will harm both the UK & your own citizens leaving a nation across the Channel that is likely to become much less friendly & helpful???

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:00 PM CET

wow

@helghart

Don’t be sacred of an FTA. The EU is a trading bloc dear!

You do sound silly!

Anyway, it’s already been agreed regardless of what ou have ever thought about the matter.

Love you!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:00 PM CET

Helghart

@Saintixe

I agree with you re:WTO. I think most if not all of us pro-Europeans struggled between two conflicting opinions: On the one hand, caution told us that having the UK close and as little change as possible should be desirable. On the other hand we felt that having one country crash out and being the guinea pig for how it is to leave the EU would be a valuable lesson for the world…certain, of course, that it would be a disaster to do so.

I think we are getting choice #2 now, even if diplomacy will manage to take some of the edge off here – not the least re: the rhetoric.

Interesting times…

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:01 PM CET

von Bredow

effectively, she is hostage to the hard core Brexiters. What she wants isn`possible. And she knows it – she is lying to her own people.

wow

* It is hard to keep one’s patience with @Helghart without sounding like a bizarre Kenneth Williams…

It’s a coping mechanism…. *cough* … clearly…

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:04 PM CET

Helghart

@Scot

You ask a very valid question -and it has been answered before. Google “Theresa May and flower pots in Brussels” and you have your answer.

The EU will put the integrity of its union above your proposals for a bespoke deal.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:04 PM CET

wow

@Helghart

An FTA has already been agreed and by Barnier TODAY as well…

BLESS!!!!

It’s not a good day for you at all is dear?

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:05 PM CET

wow

@Helghart

The whole world has FTA’s dear.

Are you ok?

What does it do sorry? Integrity? What do you mean?

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:07 PM CET

François P

@Helghart

There is no reason for the UK to pursue the WTO option. The EU will offer the UK a CETA-like agreement, which is vastly superior to the WTO option. Of course, in economic terms, a CETA-like FTA will be vastly inferior to EU membership. But that is the choice of the UK.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:10 PM CET

wow

@Jack Boot

Nearly 2 years for the penny to drop for the pro-eu.

Hilarious!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:12 PM CET

wow

@francoisP

We accept that balance. Always have.

I have honestly tried to say for a LONG time on here, that an FTA is fine and all UK has asked for.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:15 PM CET

Saintixe

@the Scot

Since Brexit Vote, EU27 and it’s citizens know very well what an unfriendly UK can be. We have always always said this was a lose lose situation.
We expect hardship. We know it is coming. We never offered unicorns to EU citizens.
You say you will be unhelpful and unfriendly. We are not surprised the least.
We know unlike you suffering is going to be part of our lives.
We accept it. You should do the same.
You do not want to see your realm politically altered.
Guess what: we do not want to see our EU altered.
You do not get this is about the money. Politics matter just as much to EU countries as to UK.
I grant you it gives a smug feeling we are ant sovereignty and the other side is sordidly about money. Well, you are the one who is going to be pleased we can be just as noble and as much full.of sovereignty as you.
We shall suffer and will take great pleasure in knowing you will . Just as much if not more .

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:15 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ Francois P

‘There is no reason for the UK to pursue the WTO option. The EU will offer the UK a CETA-like agreement,’

No it won’t. The Irish border ‘problem’ must be solved before there can be an agreement on future trade. And the Irish border ‘problem’ cannot be solved unless there is an agreement on future trade.

EU logic.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:18 PM CET

The Scot

@Saintixe
Your choice as it take two to tango. I’m happy either way – pragmatic agreement or WTO.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:18 PM CET

wow

@saintixe

I read no illwill in @scots comment?

I think you are ‘projecting’ looking at your own comments which DO bear illwill.

Go and read what he said again.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:19 PM CET

Anthony Chambers

@Saintixe: What are you jabbering on about? The UK does not want to change anything in the EU. We asked about that, you said no. So we are asking for an FTA. You can make it nice or not. That is entirely up to you. You know quite well that the nicer it is the easier for EU exporters to the UK. So please go work it out, CETA or what T. May offered here. But we really don’t know how badly you need to inflict pain on us, so just work it out and get back to us.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:21 PM CET

wow

@Steuersklaverei

Daft ‘EU logic’ is now causing even pro-eu journalists to ask difficult questions in front of the world making Barnier storm off the other day.

You know how VAIN they are. Daft EU logic and being constantly ‘confused’ will end soon. See Barnier today. Much better. There’s a good lad Barnier.

Low IQ is not a good look for the VAIN.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:22 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ Saintixe

‘Since Brexit Vote, EU27 and it’s citizens know very well what an unfriendly UK can be’

That’s nonsense. There certainly was a concerted EU propaganda campaign in the wake of the Brexit referendum to depict the UK as seized by some sort of xenophobic nativism, and this was certainly parroted in The Guardian newspaper on and off for months.

But the EU abandoned this campaign several months ago. (Either that or the UK was full of xenophobes until some mysterious and magic moment several months ago.)

In reality the EU abandoned the propaganda campaign once the decision was made not to insist on the extraterritorial jurisdiction of the CJEU over post-Brexit EU nationals living in the UK. As soon as this (insane) demand was dropped in the December ‘Phase 1’ guidelines, we haven’t heard a peek from the EU Parliament or a Barnier tweet about ‘xenophobia’ in the UK.

Meanwhile, in Austria …

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:28 PM CET

NeonLight

No CETA FTA was offered. And please make no mistake that EU is not giving away access to Canada for free.

Why CETA is good for Europe
“EU businesses may choose to invest in Canada in order to access the U.S. market on a duty-free basis under NAFTA, as well as to obtain the benefits of CETA for Canada-EU trade.”
Because of access to US market. This is public knowledge. At same time deal is good for both sides. Goods that EU get from Canada are needed in EU. Products and goods are complementary and that’s why CETA exists. And it was not done in few days. It did take years.

What UK has to offer to EU. Access to new markets? EU need to have benefits from UK.

This is 70% of UK export. What EU need from UK?
This is how you look at deals. EU has more that 40 years of experience on how to do deals. All or nobody will benefit from deal. This needs to be balanced. If EU give something to UK it needs to get something back.
Trade surplus is important, but not decisive.
UK will need goods from EU. (otherwise cost for goods will be

UK will still buy BMW, AUDI and other high quality brands. Well if this will have any tariff on. OK. 10% less sell. This car are now selling to high middle class and higher and this will not changed in future. They have money and with more valued product there will be even more interest. UK is known by class segregation and having good German car will make this difference even bigger.

What EU need from UK?

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:30 PM CET

wow

@neonlight

Yes a CETA has been offered a long time ago dear and confirmed again today by Barnier. See above.

You poor soul.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:31 PM CET

wow

@neonlight

Reality is difficult isn’t it?

Doesn’t change reality though.

Sorry.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:32 PM CET

NeonLight

@Steuersklaverei

Yes we did notice xenophobia through European cities toward British. Or … hmmm .. maybe other way around.

We don’t need foreigners was actually one of campaign to leave major advertisement.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:35 PM CET

NeonLight

@wow
EU27 will NEVER accept CETA deal with UK. Keep dreaming. CETA bring US market to EU. What can UK offer?

Can you instead lying about offers and give some hard evidence, link or copy/paste text.

Or you are just delusional in your dream? Man … you need pills.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:38 PM CET

Labour Leave

The first 20+ comments were from pro-eu trolls, this ‘forum’ is fast becoming a farce. What could have become a significant magazine with balanced debate has become a parody of itself with paid trolls assuming many different user names and even resorting to ‘borrowing’ the user names of people who speak out against their bile.
Sad to see such potential hijacked in such a blatantly political way.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:43 PM CET

Helghart

@Francois

“Europe will offer the UK a CETA-like deal”. I am far more skeptical than you, for two reasons:
Firstly, there is the issue of time: A CETA-like deal will take somewhere between 3-7 years to finalize…do you really think we will have 3-7 years of transition? I think Barnier is serious that 12/31/2020 is the definitive end…it makes sense, as it is the end of the 7 year budget.
Secondly, as our Brexiteer friends have poined out, a Canada style deal would not be in the Uk’s interest as it advantages goods over services. Guess the EU could offer it…good PR…and then have the UK reject it. And services, as even some Leavers have acknowledged on this site recently, will not be part of any trade deal without the control of the ECJ.

So my money is on WTO, with a few pseudo concessions on both sides to make this sound less chilling…after al, NATO must live on…

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:43 PM CET

tpk

Out of SM should be out of SM. Why is she talking about keeping regulatory alignment? Does she still dream of frictionless trade in some areas? If yes, than EU should be right in being not to happy about this speech.
English Remainers seem satisfied in the moment. Let’s see if they will still be when EU translates Mays speech into a realistic deal. FTA without plusses, perhaps a bit on Services.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:49 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ NeonLight

‘We don’t need foreigners was actually one of campaign to leave major advertisement.’

No, controlled immigration certainly was prominent in the ‘Leave’ manifesto. But a ‘we don’t need foreigners’ campaign would have been treated by the contempt it would have deserved by both ‘Remain’ and ‘Leave’ voters. The UK is one of the most welcoming and tolerant countries in Europe and it would have been farcical for campaigners to have pretended otherwise.

I’m surprised you appear unconcerned by the growth of actual xenophobia throughout the EU, with NeoN@zis sharing power in Austria, the AfD as the official opposition in Germany, etc.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:50 PM CET

NeonLight

@Labour Leave

Yes. You are right on this post. But it was not trolling, but commenting that there was nothing on table. No substance, only words. EU did ask for counter offer from UK. And few days there were high hopes from all sides that now we will start to begin negotiation. UK will give offer and then we will start talking.

We did wait offer from May and got nothing.
That’s why there were first 20 comments from pro-eu. Nothing to comment from anybody else since there was NOTHING in offer.

But you can be assured that on other post its usually complete difference. Check comments when EU did propose solution for borders.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 7:52 PM CET

Peter2

Brits do love their speaches.
Anyway, T May’s best speach by far, cherry picking wrapped nicely into brexiters dream.
At this stage I would have expected tangible solutions, which also can be accepted by EU. Your primary negotiation partner, you know..

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:01 PM CET

Peter G

I don’t think I am confused Wow. I think that if there are no border checks at the Ireland/ NI border than anybody who wants to can cross it. And they can carry whatever they like with them. So anybody at all in the EU whether a citizen of the EU or not can go to Ireland and then cross the border into the UK without ever speaking to any border agent. Britain may choose to leave their back door open but the EU clearly isn’t willing to do that. So where is the real border to be? Tusk and the rest of the EU would like to know. You’re the guys would want border controls.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:03 PM CET

Aled

Just imagine you are in a relationship and live together in a house. The house is yours. You have your differences sometimes, but life is good. Then at some point your wife tells you she wants to leave you and have relationships with others. She also wants to remain in the house, because she cannot afford a house on her own. What would you tell her?

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:05 PM CET

wow

@tpk

‘FTA without plusses, perhaps a bit on Services…’

Fine. UK has not asked for more. All FTA’s are tailored. Just wondering why all the hysterical screaming for 18 months?

See Helghart and Neonlight above for hysterical screaming.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:06 PM CET

Tabulazero

I want the same Magic Cake as the one Theresa May eats. Must be potent stuff.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:07 PM CET

wow

@helghart + @neonlight

I feel your pain. The whole UK does.

It’s almost as if it’s JUST NOT A GOOD IDEA to have UNELECTED people like Barnier making decisions and tweeting for you isn’t it?

Bless!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:08 PM CET

wow

@aled

The EU27 are broke but they’re not homeless! Bit harsh! UK gave then £39B after they begged. I’m ok with that.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:09 PM CET

NeonLight

@Steuersklaverei

“No, controlled immigration certainly was prominent in the ‘Leave’ manifesto.”
76% of immigration to UK arrive from non-EU members. You were always in position to control this immigration. If you didn’t understand campaign was not towards immigration from third country. You already have this control.

This campaign was for controlling EU citizens. Lets be fair and say that you don’t like people from Poland, Bulgaria, Romania and lot of other EU countries. Even if they usually do work in UK that nobody wants to do it.

and for
“The UK is one of the most welcoming and tolerant countries in Europe and it would have been farcical for campaigners to have pretended otherwise.”

I was always under same impression, but then I did start watching BBC and read some newspaper and what is going on in UK and I did change my mind. If this is something new or was always in nation I don’t know. But current situation doesn’t support your claim. Sorry.

As for right wing party over EU. This is not EU phenomena. This is world wide situation and I’m really concern. But this was always in history. This times need to change and instead segregation and xenophobia we need integration and search for common things instead of division. But UK did this immediately after Trump. So you were first in Europe. For right wing in Europe this was boost and UK like and promote this, but believe me that this will bring another war in Europe.

Divide and conquer is current UK strategy. But on long run will bring nothing good.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:12 PM CET

wow

@neonlight

I’m not your secretary. FranciosP posted the proof above. Go and look. Also just look in any worldwide media publication since the last few months?

I would no more ‘prove’ that a CETA FTA has been offered than I would the Queen is called Elizabeth becuase EVERYBODY KNOWS DEAR!!!

You just look like you have a very low IQ right now…..

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:12 PM CET

wow

@neonlight

The EU is dividing itself dear.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:13 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ NeonLight

I can see that you are commenting from outside the UK and that you are not really acquainted with politics here. The UK is the ONLY large country in Europe which does not have a major far-right political movement (and none at all represented in Parliament). Searching the internet for isolated stories of xenophobia in the UK doesn’t change this fact.

I would normally say that Spain also counts, but there always has been a nasty neo-Francoist side to the PP (as witnessed in the recent Catalanist question), so maybe Spain should be discounted.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:18 PM CET

wow

@peterG

That is why the EU want to go back on the Good Friday Agreement but they cannot as it is an international treaty (google it). The GFA has the UK/Ire Common Travel Area enshrined (at the request of IRELAND/sinn fein, not UK).

You see the EU problem?

Also you are wrong though UK/Ire are only countries not in Schengen26 (full free EU movement) as we stayed out together to honour the GFA and CTA. (this is why you see people living in the camp in Calais -they can’t get into UK/Ire from EU26 without checks).

Look up: Good Friday Agreement/Common Travel Area Ireland/UK and Schengen Area as I cannot explain don;t have time to explain it all!

FTA’s give freedom of goods but not people. CTA=freedom of people but not goods. BOTH=no hard border.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:21 PM CET

NeonLight

@wow
“See Helghart and Neonlight above for hysterical screaming.”

I know that truth hearts. Somebody can see this as screaming. But facts are that you don’t have any good argument and just insulting other people.

and for

“It’s almost as if it’s JUST NOT A GOOD IDEA to have UNELECTED people like Barnier making”

Barnier in this situation is negotiator. And is VOTED to be negotiator. 27 countries did confirm his role in this,

And for other “unelected” in EU. All people are confirmed in EU parliament. For difference wilt UK EU doesn’t have House of Lords and Queen/King which are truly “unelected”. Add 26 bishops to House of Lords to list and you will see what is true.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:22 PM CET

Saintixe

WTO
No FTA
No services
Hard borders because of WTO.
No unicorns

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:22 PM CET

tpk

@wow
Because an FTA implies a border in Ireland.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:22 PM CET

Priscilla du Bleu

@Anthony Chambers
“I think you will find that the continent of Europe is entirely full of special cases and cherry picking”

LOOOL. True to some extent.

BUT: The UK is not going to be one them, live with it. The EU can give away cherries for free is they please, in the case of the UK: they don’t. Again: live with it and stop your obnoxious and pathetic begging.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:23 PM CET

Priscilla du Bleu

The best thing of this speech was the fact that she had her boring hairdo trimmed in time.

Otherwise: *yawn*

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:25 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ Peter G

‘So where is the real border to be? Tusk and the rest of the EU would like to know. You’re the guys would want border controls.’

The UK doesn’t want any visible border with the Republic of Ireland. It’s not going to have one after Brexit either.

The real question is what sort of EU external frontier are you going to impose on the Republic of Ireland.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:28 PM CET

Priscilla du Bleu

@NeonLight

No use to try and argue with the user ‘wow, he is the board-resident village idiot. Well, he is the most deranged one. But he makes a good guinea pig for scientific research.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:28 PM CET

wow

@peterG

UK/Ire are completely not bothered about any border on anything as we have been interbreeding and the like for about errr…. err…. 32,000 years possibly? We’ve known each other quite a while you know 😉

‘People of the British Isles – Wikipedia
The first anatomically modern people to colonise Britain arrived in around 30,000 BC, as shown by the Red Lady of Paviland.’

It’s just the EU that has problem.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:30 PM CET

wow

‘tpk

An FTA implies a border?

Ok you’ve gone cuckoo now. Go and look up an FTA and stop being silly.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:32 PM CET

NeonLight

@Steuersklaverei

As I explain multiple time and will just put as summary.
We can make borders directly on territory of EU, but I don’t think you will like it. We will check all goods coming to EU. If UK doesn’t want to make borders EU companies will start to send second class goods to UK. I wonder how long will you tolarate this without checking. You need to understand that separation is divorce. We need doors! And don’t bring other agrement into play. As I said multiple times. Agreements are relevant until condition changes. Brexit did change conditions and no other agreement is valid without review and new confirmation.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:35 PM CET

wow

@neonlights

No the truth doesn’t HEART

It HURTS.

Why are commenting on things in another country if you don’t understand the cultural situations etc?

Here’s a clue.

We do not in UK get shown proof of something and deny it exists. It causes UK citizen;s to ridicule you as LOW IQ.

Try that simple thing and come back you liar. The proof is above you. Go and look.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:36 PM CET

NeonLight

@trisul

RoI was part when offer from EU was send and did confirm document with suggestion for borders. As for what UK and NI wants. EU doesn’t care. but for EU countries EU will take care and do nothing without consent.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:38 PM CET

Finn

@Helghart

I take a slightly more benign view on developments after the transition period ends.

See, if there is to be a transition period, it is because the UK signed — and hence, agreed — on the Withdrawal Agreement. This would mean that even the head-bangers in the ruling coalition accepted reality.

The WTO option is really only in play as long as Art.50 process is on-going. That does not mean it is not possible to happen — just that the sequence is tighter.

If there is transition period, we will box the UK into an ‘associated partnership program’, until, say 2025. By that time another 3,5 million brexit pensioners have moved on to sunny uplands and another 4 million young people have gained their voting rights.

There will be a new government — and a sovereign parliament does as it pleases. British population is 65-35 pro EU — simple mathematics and pragmatic politics.

We, in the EU, are not crazy, nor do we want to lose our British family. They might be a pain in the arse more often than not, but, hey, family, huh. What you gon’ do?

We just have to see the lunacy spell die (literally) out. Europe can prosper so much better when we are all in the same boat. In that sense I fully agree with Tony Blair’s speech this week. The world is changing, geo-political shift is under way.

We need to get ready. Just as you need to make sure the US stays sane trough your own bout of, ahem, crazy uncle syndrome.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:40 PM CET

NeonLight

@wow

So from my post you did get only my typo.

You poor little man.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 8:40 PM CET

wow

@neonlight

You don’t know the truth dear. You are a compulsive liar, even when given proof (it’s still above, but you have seen it already anyway).

wow

Finn

Let me add, that naturally, to get into the scenario I laid out above, we (the EU) cannot allow entertain the Brexiteer follies about cake and English exceptionalism.

Such an approach would be just bad policy across the board by the EU — for we still need to keep in mind that the UK’s political instability might get institutionalized.

I, personally, think that if we survive Art.50 without fallout — we will manage my scenario. Otherwise add 10 years before UK returns to the fold, but that is a ‘lost’ generation.

A heavy price.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:27 PM CET

bony

There must be no more compromise with the eu. May has been perhaps the worst PM, we have ever had and a weak female at that. Her pathetic search for a deep and lasting relationship with the eu has only been met by the number of times x depth of penetration, both she and her equally pathetic negotiator davies, have been shafted by junker and barnier respectively. Believe me, you continental foreigners would get your well deserved comeuppance paid in full if I was in charge.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:28 PM CET

wow

@bony

See a therapist.

This is not the place dear.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:41 PM CET

Helghart

@Finn

It is refreshing to read your sensible comment among all the childish blabber by Wow. Is there a way you can block certain idiots?

You are right, of course, to point out that the first step is the withdrawal agreement, and once signed the chances for an orderly FTA are much improved.
However, I do not think that you will get the withdrawal agreement! As the reaction to the EU’s draft document shows (annexation! meddling into internal affairs!), it seems far more likely than not that it will be a crash Brexit in 13 months, without an orderly withdrawal agreement: You in the EU lose a few billion Euros, I guess – and the UK crashes massively.

But you are right in your overall strategy: This fever needs to break, and time is on our side: Our crazy uncle has done and will continue to do a lot of damage domestically – and with his insane steel tariffs he now starts to do global economic damage. And you bet this moron is seriously considering a strike in North Korea…he is that dumb and that dangerous.

Good luck in this Stay strong. We in the US- a majority in 2016, and growing markedly since then- need a strong Europe and a strong EU.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:42 PM CET

wow

FREE!!

Thanks.

No membership fees.

Cheerio Now!

Love you.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:42 PM CET

Finn

@bony

And just when I was having a nostalgic moment about the UK you came along.

Ah well, such is life.

Yes, I am sure you would succeed. You are a man, dammit, and you can even string together whole sentences. Your phallic phase is not a sign of your inner insecurities, no. Dammit. It is a sign of mature leadership.

Go get ’em tiger.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:45 PM CET

wow

@Finn

Stop blaming UK because the EU cannot explain the benefits of membership in 2018. The world has moved on since 1957.

Maybe there AREN’T ANY BENEFITS ANYMORE???!!???

Shocking eh?

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:45 PM CET

wow

@Finn

Imagine being a membership paying trade bloc where No1 benefit is to get good and better trade deals with the world by being part of a bloc …..

… but everytime the EU do a free trade deal wiht the world….

members wonder they are paying?

hahaa!

BLESS the EU DIMWITS!!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:50 PM CET

Finn

@wow

Hi kiddo,

For once you actually ask an interesting question, I would be interested in knowing how you see it.

How do we measure EU’s benefits, how do we evaluate EU’s burdens — and how to weight the outcomes.

Further, what is the geopolitical impact going to be for us, what the true long term economic loss. How do you see China, Russia and US profiting from our collective weakening?

How do we now go about our security and defense affaires?

Do we still seek European energy security together?

I would appreciate your input, kiddo.

Serious homework this time, if that is alright with you.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 9:55 PM CET

wow

@Finn

don’t tell me to do homework.

I’m not your secretary either.

YOU were asked a simple question btw. Don’t be a troll.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:20 PM CET

wow

@finn

If you don’t want to answer it fine. But don’t turn it around.

Grow up.

Cheers.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:21 PM CET

Finn

@Erich von Klinkerhoffen

Man,

Why do I get all the fun questions? — Right.

So, your opening gambit was to for the jugular — and call the US trade (import) tariffs on steel and aluminum as the start of ‘World’s Trade War Against The EU’?

I am sure our industries will survive. We produce about 10% of world’s steel and we do not do aluminum really. Well, Norway does — a little, but they are flushed, man.

China, on the other hand, will be less amused by the direct impact.

Now, I find US (read: Trump) antics stupid, shortsighted and, ultimately, futile, but it is what it is.

He only manages to undermine the leadership role US has enjoyed for a long time in the world. Like Brexit — you can’t fix stupid, huh.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:24 PM CET

John C. Ojones

@wow
Wham!: 0/10
FAIL!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:24 PM CET

tpk

@Anthony Chaimber
“On reflection, tpk was correct, it was after all only a draft. A bit unusual to publish now, but I see now that it was done for political effect.”

And I still think they better would not have done it because it cost more sympathy in UK then it helped motivating May.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:29 PM CET

tpk

@Dixie Normous

There is no finally coming round. I said already months ago that EU would be completely fine with an FTA, if we would not have the problem with Ireland. Because there is no way to avoid a border in Ireland, just look for the video of May from 2016.

But if UK drops its “no border” promise than EU would go for an FTA, I am quite sure. As WTO would mean a hard border anyway.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:35 PM CET

Finn

@wow

Ah kiddo,

It was a genuine question. Such pity. I was not asking you to do research for me (and, seriously kid? — Now, that’s funny), I asked in order to understand you.

I know we all be worse of, I take no pleasure in any of the consequences. I do not even enjoy teaching/taking shot at you. Too simple, you must know that.

Let me part with this, as it is getting late.

“When I was a child, I spoke as a child,
I understood as a child, I thought as a child;
But when I became a man,
I put childish things away.”

(1 Cor. 13:11)

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:36 PM CET

wow

@JOhn

Pfft You WISH you could pull of Princess Diana’s haircut!

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:38 PM CET

wow

@Finn

Condescending K u n t.

P off.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:40 PM CET

wow

You just keep compulsive lying TPK. It’s sad really. You have been corrected about FTA’s repeated ly with proof and all you do is run off and spout the sma ething the next day:

Proof CETA elimintaes 98% of goods checks and tariffs and more:

‘The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) is a free-trade agreement between Canada, the European Union and its member states. If it enters into force, the treaty will eliminate 98% of the tariffs between Canada and the EU. Proponents of CETA emphasize that the agreement will boost trade between the EU and Canada and thus create new jobs, facilitate business operations by abolishing customs duties, goods checks, and various other levies, facilitate mutual recognition of diplomas and regulate investment disputes by creating a new system of courts.’

98% no goods checks or tariffs plus cooperation on other things…

Sounds great.

No fees. No rude unelected dimwits.

Sounds great.

Cheerio Now.

Stop lying TROLL.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 10:43 PM CET

AsG12

And n’er the Twain shall meet.

As Soubry says, ‘Frankly the British people need to look at this and say: ‘do I really want all of this, is this what I voted for’,” she added.

My response would be, No and No.’

The EU is locked into a non negotiable situation. The U.K.’s position is for a free trade. Why bother with the transition at all…it will lead to no where. Always thought we should just leave, go to WTO and then wait until the EU finally decide that they want to do business…as non priority third countries. Heavy tariffs on both sides..but then we export less than they do. As Blair said, we have it within our means to decide on our import partners, our taxes, how protectionist we’d like to be, what calibre of professional we’d like to join us and how competitive we would wish to be generally. Businesses always tailor theirs products to the open market. We will get by. It’s looking rather rosey from a leaver’s point if view. The thing the EU hasn’t discovered yet is that we are happy and prepared to put up with hardship in the short to medium term, if it gets out of it completely. You call it a ‘hard’, cliff jumping Brexit ..people with nothing call it ‘more of the same but with freedom of choice.’ I choose no longer to fund a failed social experiment that has resulted in poverty, homelessness and unemployment across Europe whilst our taxes are spent on potty, pie in the sky and wasteful projects (airports, roads, subsidies, moving councils across MS, The EU elites’pensions, private schooling and medical care, to name a few) and frankly, I am surprised you find it acceptable.

Posted on 3/2/18 | 11:57 PM CET

NeonLight

@trisul

Sorry to disappoint you. Offer from EU was made with RoI fully aware of this. And its true that RoI want everything with as little problem as it is.

But if RoI want to make favor to UK they can also make customs on their sea ports. For EU this will not be big problem since all goods from to EU can go to ports in Europe. This doesn’t mean much more work for EU customs with others.

If you think that they work together against EU you are wrong. They try to find best solution that’s why they did sign under offer from EU for customs.

EU will also listen Spain for border in Gibraltar. EU will not suggest anything that is not in sync with Spain.

I don’t know where you get this kind of information about EU, but EU is union of 28 independent countries and each has own interests. EU just try to protect this interests and unified rules inside EU. For example EU has lot of rules that are in interest of people.

For example.

Working Time Regulations provide rights to: a limit of an average 48 hours a week on the hours a worker can be required to work, though individuals may choose to work longer by “opting out” paid annual leave of 5.6 weeks’ a year. 11 consecutive hours’ rest in any 24-hour period.

This is something that UK will first abolish as was once explain from T. May. UK will be more competitive in this way was “excuse”. But this directive is to protect workers rights and minimum standards.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 12:56 AM CET

NeonLight

@AsG12

I totally agree with you. UK should leave. We go to WTO rules and let us forget about each other. If somebody will need something he will just ask and make proposal. I hope that this will be deal. Clean divorce. No hard feeling. I think that EU will never be able to offer something to UK that will make UK happy. So why even bother.

And for your comment:
“The EU elites’pensions, private schooling and medical care, to name a few) and frankly, I am surprised you find it acceptable.”

You know that 10% of this (EU) elite is coming from UK? You can decide to not paying them anymore. Everybody takes his own bill. Make suggestion to your MEP.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 1:09 AM CET

NeonLight

@trisul

Funny that you mention this. I never heard something like this from Republic of Ireland. If this will be their decision everybody will respect this. But I think that this is just wishful thinking since then this would already be on table.

As my understanding of thing I did heard multiple time about referendum in Northern Ireland to join Republic of Ireland. But I didn’t hear or see anything in reverse.

Correct me if I’m wrong and direct me to where can I find this information. I ‘m always convinced with facts.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 1:15 AM CET

bluebell

:o)
“The cheek of Treeza…we want to stay in those agencies because we feel our expertise will benefit the EU…. What a larf.”

Seeing as many of the EU agencies based theirs on UK models i.e. they didn’t have the intellectual capacity to develop their own from scratch EASA being a prime example.

The CAA was one of the most respected aviation authorities before being subsumed into EASA – a name chosen by an EU committee which could not even choose an acronym without the sound ‘ARSE’ in it!

Posted on 3/3/18 | 3:13 AM CET

Priscilla du Bleu

@bony
“Believe me, you continental foreigners would get your well deserved comeuppance paid in full if I was in charge.”

I have a surprise for you: you are NOT in charge :-D. Most likely, your wife grants you your weekly pocket money which then you leave at wetherspoons ….

And within the EU we are not foreigners – we are neighbours and members.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 7:07 AM CET

wow

@tpk

Everyone is happy NI/Ireland/GB with a CETA FTA for free movement goods and the CTA for free Irish/UK people.

HERE IS THE IRISH PRESIDENT TELLING YOU IT WILL SOLVE THE BOREDR ISSUE IN THE RISH TIMES:

Leo Varadkar: UK-EU trade deal best way to avoid hard … – Irish Times
13 Feb 2018 ‘OFFICIALS from Dublin and Westminster will work together on efforts to avoid a hard border between the Republic and the north after Brexit, Leo … have a new relationship between the UK and EU that involves a comprehensive free trade agreement and customs arrangement that allows us to avoid not just…

…….A comprehensive free trade agreement that allows us to avoid and minimise any borders between Britain and Ireland, that’s what we’re working towards.” SAID LEO THE IRISH TAOISEACH….!!! ‘

Run along with your lies TPK.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 7:50 AM CET

wow

@neonlight

Subjective nonsense as usual. No one believes a word you say.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 7:56 AM CET

wow

@priscilla

Humour ia sign of intelligence… so….

… I knew you had a LOW IQ it is obvious.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 7:58 AM CET

Priscilla du Bleu

@wow
“@priscilla

Humour ia sign of intelligence… so….

… I knew you had a LOW IQ it is obvious.”

I have a surprise for you: your stupendous idiocy is not funny to anyone.

Speaking of IQs ….. mine is high enough for both a degree in programming and business administration. Is your’s high enough to ever answer the very very very moderate programming / IT questions i asked you? You keep claiming to be so much more intelligent, yet since weeks – or is it already months? – fail, fail, fail and fail again to provide any proof of your alleged skills.

*yawn*

Posted on 3/3/18 | 8:57 AM CET

wow

@prisiclla

Your jokes are inane dear. You have no wit about you at all.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 9:32 AM CET

toby wheatfield

good article

Posted on 3/3/18 | 9:36 AM CET

wow

wow

I think to be fair the UK made a serious mistake in thinking the pro-eu and EU had the IQ to understand what an FTA is and what it does. This is now being corrected as TM talked to them like children yesterday.

The way ahead is to talk to them like children. Assume ZERO IQ. They don’t even seem offended? They WANT it!

What can you do? Just treat them like children, give clear instructions not too complex for their IQ and try not to be too condescending I suppose!

Posted on 3/3/18 | 10:26 AM CET

kermelen

I believe there is some misunderstanding from the British side in this exit negotiation.

Mrs May is not asking the EU to seek a trade agreement with post-Brexit Britain but to compromise its own body of rules and principles.

She can wish many things indeed, but I doubt the EU will ever compromise itself only to please the leaving party.

Business is business indeed, but if the Mini Cooper was 70% made on continental EU before Brexit, this should be 100% after Brexit and YES: business being business, I just don’t see why the EU would need to compromise itself only to satisfy British autarchical fantasy.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 10:31 AM CET

wow

@kermelen

LOW IQ? You seem confused about a very simple matter!

You’ll figure it out dear. Nobody can be bothered explaining to you anymore.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 10:41 AM CET

bandib

Brexiters don’t understand plain English. They compensate their utter ignorance of commerce, economy, international rules and institutions by painfully stupid and misplaced aggressiveness and hysterical attempt at humour. Their delusions are painful to see . Unfortunately, they are dragging the whole country down to meaningless irrelevance and destitution.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 10:50 AM CET

tony

heighart said

‘I guess everyone in Brussels reads British newspapers but nobody in the UK reads French/German/Dutch/Italian/Spanish ones.’

Yes we do. They are called ThE Guardian and The European. Their mouthpiece is the BBC.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 10:51 AM CET

wow

@tony

I read Der spiegel. Apparantly Angel@ was ‘leader of the free world’ for just 9 months after Obama left between Jan 2017 and Oct 2017.

It was quite the empire, I’m told.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 10:55 AM CET

wow

* I didn’t witness it myself anywhere so I will have to trust them.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 10:55 AM CET

tony

I posted this yesterday but it ‘disappeared’ and only reappeared recently so the conversation has moved on . It is nonsense to believe that tailor made agreements can not be made by the EU. There are up to 50 of them already existing, Here is the post linking to the data on these trade deals.

“There are some 40 to 50 known trade agreements the EU has signed with other states. They are very different in scope because of the size of the third party or their trade requirements, so not all are comparable to what we might seek. However they serve to demonstrate the diversity of the agreements that other states have ‘cherry picked’ to everyone’s benefit. (For ‘cherry picked’ read ‘negotiated like adults’.)

So there are plenty of bespoke options and it is not unreasonable to expect that one of the EU’s best customer and its geographically closest, with whom they have a massive 70 billion a year trade surplus, will mutually agree something that will enhance the lives of both EU and UK citizens.

This link confirms the various existing trade deals and was written by a British MP sitting on the Finance select committee..

theredcell.co.uk/uploads/9/6/4/0/96409902/42.pdf

If the EU won’t give one of their best customers a mutually beneficial good deal we must assume that the politics of the EU hierarchy trumps good sense and concerns over their citizens livelihoods.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 11:03 AM CET

Finn

@Helghart

Good morning H.,

Politico’s comment section has a lot to improve. One cannot reply directly to posts, often posts are ‘missing’ (like your reply to me was only readable this morning for me) — and their moderation could be better. The latter might get some of my more blunt comments removed, but it would be a price worth paying for reasonable exchange of ideas and thoughts. And yes, a blocking function would be welcome.

Speaking of personalities. while a character like ‘wow’ is annoying, he announces himself as an idiot in such a transparent manner that no one can take him seriously.

I am more worried about the types of ‘tony’, ‘ Anthony C.’, ‘Steu’ et al. See, these fellows probably wear suits, smile politely when you pass them. They are decent family men, passing for clever chaps. Yet their ideology, nationalism, sense of exceptionalism has an ugly under current. ‘tony’ is simply a racist masquerading as a concerned citizen, but every point he advances is to remove the ‘dirty ones’ from the UK. Anthony and Steu have an ‘übermensch’ complex that is deadly for modern society — and more specifically, for modern Europe.

These gentlemen can make reasonable sounding arguments that are oozing of poison and venom by things omitted. The French have the pejorative term ‘ Perfidious Albion’ to describe the phenomena.

As to the on-going matter of Brexit. I agree with you that we are in a crucial moment in the process. Yet, the reality is the UK has no viable options without agreeing the WA.

No deal Brexit is unmanageable for the UK; economically, politically and simple practical terms. Life would grind to halt, markets would crash, so would the pound and ratings. Supply chains — and thus manufacturing, would collapse. Aviation would get stuck to ground, lorries would be parked in Dover. Food would rot in customs, people’s passports would not be accepted any where in the world.

I could go on and on, but you get the drift. The UK society would explode in the face of such incompetence of its leaders. Elections would follow — young people might actually go and vote.

Hard-core Brexiteers simply cannot win this game. But, just like Trump, they will do as much damage as possible — before we can wheel them to the asylum.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 11:17 AM CET

Zebedee

Well done May for clearing up the Irish border issue – why not build a Trump wall around the UK with a convenient gap in Ireland. We can then move on to the next stage.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 11:27 AM CET

Finn

…

Posted on 3/3/18 | 11:40 AM CET

Finn

@Helghart

Apologies for my bad manners. I forgot to thank you for the well wishes. Thanks — any support is most welcome.

And may I return the sentiment and wish you ‘break a leg’ with uncle Don(sky). And. You have a more immediate — and, may I say, more consequential — threat on your hands.

I can just hope that your institutional framework can withstand the on-going assault until the mid-term elections. And — those needs to go ‘our’ way or we will be truly fked.

Another three years of ‘Trumpism’ will make irreparable damage to our present international (very pro Western ) arrangements in the functioning of the world, hastening the geopolitical re-alignement of nations. Chaos begets chaos, hein.

And yes, you (the US) have the unfortunate habit of doing war as a past-time hobby. Said habit has transferred your presidency too much unilateral power in military decisions. George II was a disaster in his own right — the world keeps on paying the price, but Trump has a tendency to do FUBAR better than anyone.

So, yea. Pussy crapping seem like the least of the worries — only two tiny hands, huh.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 1:23 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ kermelen

The EU is of course fully in its rights not to compromise its political construct but your last point is bewildering. There is nothing ‘autarchical’ in the British Brexit strategy whatsoever. ‘Global Britain’ is the very antithesis of Autarky. The only autarchical tendencies are coming, as they have always come, from the EU.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 1:25 PM CET

Finn

Correction: to grab — for heavens sake. Not crap — although that must be a Freudian slip of mind.

Apologies. And — oops.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 1:28 PM CET

Steuersklaverei

@ kermelen

By the way I have missed your intelligent anti-Brexit comments. Can we hear more from you and less from EUbot fanatics like ‘Finn’.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 1:33 PM CET

tony

Finn

‘tony’ is simply a racist masquerading as a concerned citizen, but every point he advances is to remove the ‘dirty ones’ from the UK. Anthony and Steu have an ‘übermensch’ complex that is deadly for modern society — and more specifically, for modern Europe.

These gentlemen can make reasonable sounding arguments that are oozing of poison and venom by things omitted. The French have the pejorative term ‘ Perfidious Albion’ to describe the phenomena.”

What an unpleasant fellow you are turning out to be on this blog, dripping with hate and venom towards the UK. However I am sure you are not like that in person but just go over the top when behind a keyboard without a calming influence

Racist? If you mean am I concerned at an open borders policy that you promote that has seen my country transformed in 20 years- and if current demographics of migration continue- will have all the trappings of an alien culture in another 20, then you might call it that, but I wouldn’t.

As for racism I suggest you look at what is going on in Tampere and which has promoted the advance of far right parties in your country and others, yet you want to lecture us?

For the record I am extremely and boringly centrist. I am however a historian and can see where we are headed even if you can’t, or are unconcerned at it.

And again for the record I do not hate the EU but am just disappointed at what it has become. It is a far cry from the trading organisation I enthusiastically voted for in 1975 and has gathered together the seeds of its own destruction in the last 20 years.

Again for the record it would not have taken much to persuade me to change my vote in the referendum. However the EU could not see what was in front of their faces.

Finland is in a very vulnerable position. Does it not concern you that whilst Britain has created a JEF to which your govt has signed up, your beloved EU are not concerned about your protection, nor that of the Baltic states? All this talk of an EU army is hot air, whilst we have done something practical to secure the borders, not only with the JEF but in paying our fair share towards Nato.

We are prepared to put our military and lives on the line for our European neighbours, yet all you can do is to pontificate wildly and call people names and pour hatred on my country and those individuals you disagree with

Now, how about calming down, accept we have different viewpoints and stop throwing wild accusations around about things that exist only in your own mind. They help no one.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 1:48 PM CET

Saintixe

Only WTO terms fulfill Mrs May red lines. And it includes Britain not allowed access to EU agencies as Brexit Britain rejects ECJ jurisdiction.
Law is black or white here. EU cannot allow a third country with a fudging position on who can have jurisdiction on a EU agency.
Only time ,which will allow UK to evolve its laws and diverge from EU and same applies for EU from UK , will permit negotiators to know where they stand and start a discussion based on solid ground.
At the minute Britain stands as same laws but will diverge. Thus nobody knows where we stand. Only an interval of 10 years at best can give each side the idea of the scope needed in a future trade deal.
Britain cannot be allowed in EU mechanisms because EU is like Britain unable to know where it will stand in 10 years
WTO gives each side a stable ground to evolve apart.
However possibly unpleasant for both EU and UK it is the most reliable starting point.
If Britain is serious about this new relationship, it must accept that it is time which allows relationships to become strong or fickle. Nobody knows on hindsight.

It is about building trust. We know where we stood with Britain when it was part of EU28.
But EU27 does not know. And I agree UK does not know itself.

In divorces, over time ex partners can build a reliable if a lot more limited relationship or carry on Distrust on a Cold Climate6sort of thing . But at the beginning nobody knows. Divorcees never start by quoting their convergence. They know they will diverge. Only time tells if they can carry on some form of trusting bond…. or not.
Thus time and WTO will ensure this to have a chance to develop. Or not.
Brexit Britain has erased 40 years. It was its democratic vote which is being enacted. And Same Britain must accept in turn that EU is to act on it and enact its consequences when it comes to UK.
Time. Patience.
Trust must be accepted as lost and having to be rebuilt or not.
UK cannot expect to keep good will. It is gone. It is a divorce and that’s it.
UK diverges EU diverges
Only time in turn allows at one point to give the signal some sort of deal/trust is now feasable. Not before. Not now.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 2:59 PM CET

tony

saintixe

Nice comment.

Yes, time will tell. At the moment the divorce is too raw and red for people to be able to get any sense of historic perspective.

We have set the tectonic plates of the EU shifting. It is impossible to know where they will end up.

What was certain was that the EU was ignoring its own citizens and favouring its elite.

At least our actions may give them pause for thought.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 3:34 PM CET

Saintixe

@Tony
Ah the sweet belief in Anglo Saxon exceptionalism.
Ah the fortitude We lead and others follow.
Well some don’t. I do not need Britain to rule my waves.
Britain can certainly rules its own but not mine. Not my people.
My way or the highway cuts both ways.
There are things I do not agree with in Brussels . Does it imply I shall follow UK Brexit?
No. No way. Personally this tantrum is not me. Not my way, my methods and the way I act and react.
Brexit worked for Britain be a use it is British. Insularly so. But not Continental. Not German. Not French.
My notion of displeasure does not include a neofascist alt right party. Merkel has made mistakes. Who does not. And my mental world does not approve of throwing babies with baths waters.
You did not start tectonic plates. This is known as delusions of grandeur You simply cut yourself out of a tectonic plate. Big difference.
Yes. Brussels leadership missed a few things but between them and your way, I shall always. Repeat always. Choose the Continent way. The Brussels way over whatever AS way.
I am old enough to know through my parents what wars bring. And I shall not destroy this EU27 peace for whatever grandiose British vision.
Enjoy your way but do not expect me to follow suite. A sanitary quarantine is what I/Barnier am/is striving to build while the Council approval.
EU must reform. Following my template. My as in EU27 citizens templates
You lost this right by cutting yourself out if my plate.
It is your right. Just like it is my right to stop giving you a right to impact on me.
Enjoy your sovereignty. Accept my right to enjoy mine in ways you had not planned.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 3:53 PM CET

Saintixe

@Tony
Another piece of contention is the belief Brexiters have is that “they know better”.

As if 17,4 millions voters knew better than let’s say Dutch voters who did not vote in favor of a Nexit party along the French voters who did not vote in favor of a Frexit party.
As if British voters had the supremacy in intelligent voters vs other nations whose voters were by definition idiots whose votes will always be wrong.
As if only London politicians can judge right but Continental ones always make wrong assessments.
At the minute, your recent post can be resume as follows:
Brussels is wrong and is harming its citizens by not giving me what I want.
Which can be just as rightly written I am having a tantrum because Brussels does not believe it is harming EU citizens. Which in fact could be right.
Your reasoning does not accept you may be wrong.
And by not getting ready to be proven wring you allow yourself to suffer extra pain should you be wrong. By denying this possibility .
This is akin to religious faith.
And religion is not good at rationalizing thoughts and behaviours.
I have accepted a lose lose situation. Internalizing loss allows a back seat assessment of the situation.
Maybe you are right. Maybe you are wrong. A half full glass situation. With less loss
But an assessment where you cannot be wrong implies you may be very wrong. In which case should you be wrong is a glass fully empty and a cliff edge jump. With no parachute.
Plus this belief Brussels would wilfully endanger its own citizens is , sorry, sick.
Once again it is part of the mantra I know best. A sentiment of superiority which in reality endangers you.
Nobody is perfect. Nobody knows.
By not preparing yourself to the unknown, you allow the unknown to rule over you unchallenged.
Dangerous behaviour for your people.
Just saying.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 4:21 PM CET

Peter G

Sorry Wow you are wrong which you must be used to by now. The EU recognizes the Good Friday Agreement. But that agreement is between Britain and Ireland and Northern Ireland. I notice that you still haven’t figured out how to stop people from crossing your imaginary border. Why some of them could be (gasp!) Muslims! Or worse, Frenchmen! So Brexit is about taking back control of immigration is it? Except for the giant back door that will be left open for anyone to use. I wonder Wow, if you think because you have ‘told’ someone something stupid they are obligated to believe it? It doesn’t work that way.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 4:24 PM CET

Alex T

@tony

I wouldn’t get too steamed up by Finn if I were you. He, along with “Priscilla” and “Ojones”, is one of the most thoroughly unpleasant trolls on Politico. Maybe they are even all the same person.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 4:58 PM CET

tony

alex

Thanks.

I am not steamed up about finn, more worried that he has so much hatred and irrationality in him yet thinks he is so logical.

Lets hope he calms down and starts posting more rational and considered information that expresses his viewpoint better than his recent material.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 6:30 PM CET

Finn

@tony

I stand by my comment. I refer to article about Empire 2.0 in Politico’s Brexit section — and read the comments exchange.

I am not going to re-argue the case. Suffice to say that by the time your argument has descended to pointing out that three Polish supermarkets — in your area — is a sign that them foreigners do not even spend their hard earned money in the UK, tells me all there is to know. Never mind your habit of mangling facts to justify your stance on the issue — and your desperate attempt to make the conversation an economic one to mask your true colors.

You, sir, are — in commonly understood language — a racist, a xenophobe — or so a thoroughly confused individual, that you do not understand and see that you have become one.

Either way — bells ought to go off for you, my friend.

I agree and disagree with people on these boards. Apart the occasional (or frequent, you decide) shot at folks idiocies, stupidity and ignorance — and my, sometimes, blunt manner of speech (not helpful, I know) — I do not tend to call people out individually — I point out to their misguided logic. With you I have made an exception — again, the bells ought to ring by now.

Yes, I do make the point that Brexit vote was driven by xenophobia — and worse. That fact is irrefutable. And yes. The vote had other elements to bear in mind, but that is not the subject here.

I recommend professor Bhambra’s TEDx Talk on this matter — an excellent presentation. She is from university of Sussex. One can find her on YouTube.

I do not do PC, I do not care about peoples oddities. We are free to speak. You and I both. I most certainly do not try to insult you, I just call sh!t as I see it.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 7:25 PM CET

Tony

Sanitixie

I said nothing at all in my complimentary post to you that is remotely connected to your rant continued over two posts. What on earth are you talking about?

The only people I have heard talking about British exceptionalism are our European friends. I have never ever heard it mentioned in the UK. curiously the Europeans are also the only people to talk about empire 2.0 as well. Where do you get these notions from?

Now my point, apart from complimenting you, was that we have started to shift the EU tectonic plates. How can it be otherwise?

The second largest economy in the EU after over 40 years of membership and after contributing some 350 billion to European projects has decided, in the largest democratic mandate in our history to leave.

In return the eu tries to punish us so that others do not get the same idea.

Let’s hope we are all around in five or ten years to see if the tectonic plates have shifted radically or whether we just caused a minor tremor.

At the very least we have given your masters and mine in Brussels pause for thought and they just might start listening to eu citizens, not all of whom are as enthusiastic of what the EU has become as you are.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 8:13 PM CET

wow

@PeterG

I’m a pro-immigration leftie.

None of that insulted me.

Go and speak to a stereotype you have in your head. Get some cornflake boxes and make a cardboard man and write ‘euroskeptic’ on it. Draw a scary face on him. Put it in your bedroom. It will be the same person looking at you each morning.

You will feel comforted and sleep well.

I have told you already that UK and Ireland have co-existed and interbred for 32,000 years (approx) on two close Islands. A border is not going to happen. I am not scared whatsoever. No in the slightest tiniest bit.

The GFA has the CTA within it. It overrules the WTO (like ALL International Agreements do including eg FTA’s) and it overrules the EU and there is nothing the EU can do about it.

We are not re-negotiating the GFA and that is the end of the matter. IT IS SUPREME INTERNATIONAL LAW over ALL organisation and Nations in the world. It says no hard border and free movement.

This is UK default ‘no-deal’ position.

And there is nothing the EU can do about it.

Have a cry for the EU.

Posted on 3/3/18 | 11:01 PM CET

wow

@Saintixe

Calm Down Dear.

You are starting to proper rant about nothing at all.

Try an hour of Enya humming:

The Fugees stole it you know:

Posted on 3/3/18 | 11:09 PM CET

wow

@PeterG

The EU27 should read treaties more carefully! It would help if they had a SINGLE law firm in the top 100 but they don’t! Not any of the 27 put together. Not ONE in the top 100. It’s ALL USA/UK in 99 spots and one HongKong at number 34 (Hong Kong is still under english business and international british common law).

Finn

.,.

Posted on 3/4/18 | 9:26 AM CET

Mark Boyd

Lower market access is not acceptable. During the referendum, most brexiteer politicians had said that we would maintain the same level of access to the European single market if leave won.
It is their duty to get a deal that maintains the same access.
Hence anything worse than an EEA/Swiss style deal is unacceptable.

Posted on 3/4/18 | 11:17 AM CET

Peter G

Well Steu and Wow, it seems we agree that Britain will continue to endorse the free movement of people from anywhere in the EU to anywhere in Britain. As long as they land in Ireland they will be free to cross the non-existent border and go anywhere they like, brining anything they like. There will be no one to stop them and no reason for anyone in the EU to give a damn if they do it weekly. Britain ‘wins’ again!

Posted on 3/5/18 | 2:25 AM CET

Finn

@Stiv

Interesting,

I have never seen you on these boards before, so you must have missed my take on the UK’s Brexit vote, generally speaking.

I do not say 17 million people are racist or xenophobic. I’d argue that 17 million people were rather clueless whilst voting — many were simply lied to, many were too unaware of the implications of said vote, thus easy to mislead and manipulate.

And, a whole lot the same people have an issue with foreigners — again, some by simple ignorance, many others have much darker motivation.

As to ‘tony’ — to whom my post was directed. Well, he has been arguing the foreigner angle, here, for the past year or so. Not a pretty sight.

He has a three step pitch to mask his colors.

(i) make an argument about sovereign right of nations to protect their borders;
(ii) when that fails, shift the argument to economic ground — the unwashed cost money;
(iii) when that fails, reach for a cultural and societal burden — they breed too much, they clog the schools, NHS — and, apparently, the view from his balcony.

UK could have, and still could, manage its immigration matters without any need for Brexit — by simply applying the laws on your books. Studies show EU expats (we are not ‘immigrants’ in the manner UK labels people) contribute more to the UK economy than they do cost.

UK’s population is about 84% white natives — yet the EU’s expats and other immigrants are the problem?

Please.

I have many friends in the UK — most of the UK populace is sane and rational. Your Brexitologists are not — and among that group, there lurks many an ugly character.

No spinning will change that fact, nor the fact that, unfortunately, racism and xenophobia played an outsize part and influence on the said vote.

Posted on 3/5/18 | 12:13 PM CET

Jack Boot

@Peter G
“Well Steu and Wow, it seems we agree that Britain will continue to endorse the free movement of people from anywhere in the EU to anywhere in Britain. As long as they land in Ireland they will be free to cross the non-existent border and go anywhere they like, brining anything they like. There will be no one to stop them and no reason for anyone in the EU to give a damn if they do it weekly. Britain ‘wins’ again! ”

If that’s what you believe then you should be happy in your ignorance and stop complaining.
🙂

Posted on 3/6/18 | 1:38 PM CET

Jack Boot

The USA and the UK…. The 2 largest EU trade partners.
Can the EU take them both on at the same time?
Is it yet another war for Germany on 2 fronts?

Germany is behind virtually all the EU’s problems including brexit via open door and Germany is Trumps target. Is it fair that all member states have to suffer because of Germany’s misbehaviour in cooking the trade books?