The sales figures for new car and truck sales during the month of November are in. Of course, these figures are only for the United States as the threat title hints. Does anything... unusual jump out at you?

I guess with gas back at reasonable prices and high-revenue truck sales picking up, the American automakers won't be needing that bail-out quite so soon? Maybe some were a little premature in calling the days of trucks and SUVs a thing of the past.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):I guess with gas back at reasonable prices and high-revenue truck sales picking up, the American automakers won't be needing that bail-out quite so soon? Maybe some were a little premature in calling the days of trucks and SUVs a thing of the past.

Source? I would guess that the list is flawed. Is it taking into account the fact that these trucks are primarily purchased by businesses that actually require them? I would be interested to see the amount of F-150's and Silverado's sold to businesses versus recreational purchases.

Also, let's not forget, F-150's and Silverado's are CHEAP. Sold well below MSRP. I would say that catches more people than the fact that gas prices are down a couple bucks.

Aparently the only brand in the USA to be actually getting sales growth (not market share% although they would be in this case too) is Subaru. The new model Imprezas and Foresters are proving to be pretty popular with sales going up by 20-100% in many places over the previous models. Now that they are bringing in a much more powerful WRX (for effectively the same price) and talking about introducing their unique boxer diesel it could be a very good few years for Subaru... they have some of the highest loyalty rates as well.

Considering the F-150 has traditionally outsold the number one selling passenger car by almost 2-to-1 for a long time now, I don't think anyone was expecting that to change overnight. What would be interesting is to see sales figures compared to last year. For instance, how many F-150s were sold in November 2007 or 2006.

Of course there will always be a market for trucks and vans. What I think we're seeing (and why the car manufacturers are screwed) is that the people who DON'T need these large vehicles are opting for something a bit smaller.

I think because of the likely chance of increased excise taxes on less fuel-efficient vehicles in the USA we may see a lot more small cars sold in the country. That's why Honda is building a lot more Civics than Accords nowadays.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):The new model Imprezas and Foresters are proving to be pretty popular with sales going up by 20-100% in many places over the previous models.

The fact that the new fugly impreza is selling better than the last one is amazing...
Do people actually like this car, or is it just good marketing/good pricing? I don't doubt it's a good drive, but I couldn't get past the 1990's Korean look for Japanese car money...

I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.

JetsGo and LH423 recognise valid points. Pickem' up trucks have traditionally sold on top (in my memory), and for good reason in the US, so these figures are certainly not unusual.

With so many folks beating up on pick ups, it WOULD be unusual (and interesting) to get reliable figures on what percentage pickups are purchased for (and by) bling-bling, wannabe cowboys, and other dolts versus those sold for utilitarian and in some cases dual use where affording two or more vehicles is not possible.

I know this is a long-running argument here on Adot, but my feeling is that these figures may surprise a lot of contributors. Regards...jack

Quoting Acheron (Reply 1):Which means people haven't learned their lesson and think Oil is going to be down permanently even when the economy recovers, which I think its going to be quite the opposite of what actually happens.

Some analyst are estimating that the price for a barrel of crude oil could level off at $25 US dollars next year. Oil is not running out in the next decade, the one after that, or even the one after that. What we experienced these last few years was rampant speculation and profiteering that fed off a handful of real, but ultimately minor, supply disruptions. So whose to say that oil won't stay down over the long-run (i.e., next 5, 10, 15 years)?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):I guess with gas back at reasonable prices and high-revenue truck sales picking up, the American automakers won't be needing that bail-out quite so soon?

Yes they will. It doesn't matter how much of an item they are selling, it's how much CASH they are getting from sold items, and even then it will be a while before it is recognised in the books and off the 'Accounts Receivable' entry. In the case of GM in particular, they will need sales to explode by 100x (and hope a lot of those customers pay upfront) to avoid running out of cash imminently and having no choice but to go bust unless the US Government agrees to bail them out.

It will be interesting to see what Chrysler, Ford and GM do should they receive the loans.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 1):Which means people haven't learned their lesson and think Oil is going to be down permanently even when the economy recovers, which I think its going to be quite the opposite of what actually happens.

Exactly! Fuel-efficient cars are great when prices at the pumps are high and no doubt owners of such cars will be laughing even more if prices plummet significantly and the cost of filling a tank to run over 600 miles costs a mere £30.

Before anyone gets technical, the 600 miles for just £30 was a rough guess off the top of my head for example purposes, and is not based on factors like prices per litre, fuel type, car engine/mpg, driving style etc etc.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 10): In the case of GM in particular, they will need sales to explode by 100x (and hope a lot of those customers pay upfront) to avoid running out of cash imminently and having no choice but to go bust unless the US Government agrees to bail them out.

Car manufacturers don't get paid when a car retails. They get paid when they deliver a car to a dealer. Once a car is on the lot at a dealership, the dealership owns the vehicle. They pay the cost of keeping the car on the lot. Once a car retails at a dealership, whether it is paid for in cash or financed through a bank, the dealership gets paid in full.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 10):Before anyone gets technical, the 600 miles for just £30 was a rough guess off the top of my head for example purposes, and is not based on factors like prices per litre, fuel type, car engine/mpg, driving style etc etc.

Entirely possible. A couple of weeks ago I put almost 300 miles on a rental Mustang (piece of shit car, but that's another story) and put a total of $19 of gas into it.

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 8):With so many folks beating up on pick ups, it WOULD be unusual (and interesting) to get reliable figures on what percentage pickups are purchased for (and by) bling-bling, wannabe cowboys, and other dolts versus those sold for utilitarian and in some cases dual use where affording two or more vehicles is not possible.

One thing that I believe a lot of people who do not own pickup trucks miss is that they are damned useful vehicles to have. I don't care if you live in town. If you do anything at all, having one parked in the driveway is a blessing. I've got an 87 Mitsubishi pickup that hauls all sorts of crap for me and I wouldn't be without it. I almost bought a mid eighties Chevrolet 3/4 ton pickup a couple weeks ago, it was in good shape with little rust and the seller was asking $900. They're useful and practical vehicles that you can use to schlep stuff around with all day long.

If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):One thing that I believe a lot of people who do not own pickup trucks miss is that they are damned useful vehicles to have. I don't care if you live in town. If you do anything at all, having one parked in the driveway is a blessing. I've got an 87 Mitsubishi pickup that hauls all sorts of crap for me and I wouldn't be without it. I almost bought a mid eighties Chevrolet 3/4 ton pickup a couple weeks ago, it was in good shape with little rust and the seller was asking $900. They're useful and practical vehicles that you can use to schlep stuff around with all day long.

True, except here in America, we have thrown practicality out the window, and instead opt for the biggest, shiniest rims and lift kits for our trucks, mostly in the case of short men, or single women who want some psudo protection. The other day while on a jog, I saw a newer F250 or something huge, ugly Ford crew cab, lift, huge rims, big pipes, loud, lights the works, towing an 8 foot U-Haul trailer. I had to stop running to contain my laughter. Most of these trucks go untethered and never get dirty unless there is a puddle in the Wal Mart parking lot or the drive-thru. Anyone wonder why we're in a recession? Generation X-cess.

Nice anecdotal observation. Probably just that...anecdotal; (BTW, why do most of the pickem'up truck haters always seem to make some kind of sexuality reference in their diatribes?).

If you'd noticed my Rep8, and Dougloid's Rep9, this thread, maybe you'd have spent a little time trying to find out some news for us rather than drivelling your "on a jog" trip report. I guess you think your local jogging speaks for all of us "here in America"?

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 7):Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
The new model Imprezas and Foresters are proving to be pretty popular with sales going up by 20-100% in many places over the previous models.

The fact that the new fugly impreza is selling better than the last one is amazing...
Do people actually like this car, or is it just good marketing/good pricing? I don't doubt it's a good drive, but I couldn't get past the 1990's Korean look for Japanese car money...

Parts of it are fugly for sure, but the old one was not the best looking! Funny you say Korean look, the whole idea of moving to a hothatch was to make it more European styling... if anything it looks more like the Ford Focus hatch....The Mazda 3 looks very similar too.
You're from France and you are commenting on a cars style??? LOL
The car is larger, yet lighter than the older model, is more fuel efficient and a more comfortable drive... however in the 08 WRX this was a bad thing which is why they are now calling that the GT and have made an 09 WRX with 40 something more HP, more torque, bigger wheels, performance suspension and bodykit.

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 16):Nice anecdotal observation. Probably just that...anecdotal; (BTW, why do most of the pickem'up truck haters always seem to make some kind of sexuality reference in their diatribes?).

If you'd noticed my Rep8, and Dougloid's Rep9, this thread, maybe you'd have spent a little time trying to find out some news for us rather than drivelling your "on a jog" trip report. I guess you think your local jogging speaks for all of us "here in America"?

Woah, no need to get nasty, just a friendly observation. I don't hate trucks, I just find amusement in these 'wanna-be cowboys' as you so nicely put it. Most of the trucks I see actually being used for their intended purpose (towing heavy equipment, horse trailers, or work trucks) are plain, stock models, and are just as capible, if not more so, as the blinged-out ones. I think the industry has been very good at adapting to the need of the average truck user, at least in America, over the last several years. I used to live in Chile, where there were some awesome trucks (Ranger quad-cab diesel, yeah), all of them quad-cab. At that time, those were rare in the States. Today, you'd be hard pressed to find a new truck, full size or not, that isn't a quad-cab. They're more powerful and yet more fuel-efficient than yesterdays models. For a family, or even an individual that needs a do-it-all vehicle, you can't beat a pickup.

America is a truck culture (well, small-town America, at least). The phenomanon of driving something just for the image is old, and reaches well beyond the realm of trucks. As for drivel, sorry to waste your time. If it's answers you want, this forum is the last place I would look.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):Some analyst are estimating that the price for a barrel of crude oil could level off at $25 US dollars next year. Oil is not running out in the next decade, the one after that, or even the one after that. What we experienced these last few years was rampant speculation and profiteering that fed off a handful of real, but ultimately minor, supply disruptions.

And you really believe that ''speculation'' was just a one time thing??

If that's what all those who are buying innefficient cars believe (innefficient in the sense of do they need them for their daily living since obviously a farmer might need a big truck, but somene living in a flat within 200 meters of a subway station... hmmm, not so much), then perhaps they need to borrow some money at 0% interest from a bank (which eventually will come since the planet is printing money like end of the year confetti), and put it in an oil tracking Market Vehicle.

At least they will make some cash to pay for gas, since they won't be alone in looking to get better returns on their money than 0%, and oil will go to 300 dollars in 2012 or 2013.

That is virtually guaranteed when world currencies are being printed at the current rate.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 18):Funny you say Korean look, the whole idea of moving to a hothatch was to make it more European styling... if anything it looks more like the Ford Focus hatch....The Mazda 3 looks very similar too.

They completely missed the target in my view, really. The Mazda 3 is ok, so is the Focus, but this, I don't see it at all. it reminds me of old Daewoo's, before GM got theirs hands on it (not that they did much good to it...).
But then I was a big fan of the old impreza so my sourness might come from disappointment...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 18):You're from France and you are commenting on a cars style??? LOL

Oh, ye of little taste...

I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.

Why am I suddenly feeling very sleepy after reading positions 3 through 6, then 8 to 9...

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 7):I don't doubt it's a good drive, but I couldn't get past the 1990's Korean look for Japanese car money...

The new Impreza isn't even that great a drive. The top versions are slack compared to the old and stove-hot 2.0L STi versions we used to get from Japan. (and the brilliant 22B). The old ones sounded better too.

I will be buying a new '09 Ford F-150, probibly in March 2009, during Ford's annual "truck month". Yes, I already have a '03 F-150 (75,000 miles on it), which I will trade in, unless I sell it out right. Like many Americans, I like having a truck. But, I do use my truck to tow my camper, and throwing lots of camping equipment in the bed. My sons have also borrowed it when they move to different apartments (I do have a bed liner).

I have considered buying a new truck now, the prices on left over '08 F-150s is tempting, but, I'll hold off, for now.

I don't usually drive my truck to work, I also have a '07 Ford Focus, and a '95 Buick Century.

In 2010, I'll consider trading in both the Focus and Buick for a new 2010 Mercury Milan Hybrid. I will still need two vehicles, and the new Merc and new F-150 look like what I want.

One of the reasons (I suspect) for the recent popularity of the Silverado and F-Series is the massive discounting that has been available. A relative of mine picked up a new Chevy truck a few weeks ago for USD$12,000 off sticker price. I forget what the original MSRP was, but I recall he got it for somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40% off.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 7):The fact that the new fugly impreza is selling better than the last one is amazing...

I think Car and Driver put it best when, in an article about the new Impreza, they opened with "Subaru has done a terrific job of re-creating the Toyota Camry", or something to that effect.

In my opinion, the two generations are so different, they could successfully be sold side-by-side as two entirely different models.

What I can't figure out is how they can charge a $14-15,000 premium for the STI when it's slower than the basic WRX.

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 8):With so many folks beating up on pick ups, it WOULD be unusual (and interesting) to get reliable figures on what percentage pickups are purchased for (and by) bling-bling, wannabe cowboys, and other dolts versus those sold for utilitarian and in some cases dual use where affording two or more vehicles is not possible.

The numbers aren't as high as people would think. Pick-ups traditionally sell only 20-30% to fleet customers; compact pick-ups even less (Dakota, i.e., is ~14%).

Cars that sell extremely heavily to fleet customers are American sedans and minivans - Avenger (85%), Sebring (66%), Grand Caravan (49%), Taurus/Five Hundred (43%), Malibu (64%), Cobalt (40%), etc., etc. Just about every foreign equivalent is much less, with Honda's rarely being more than 5% to fleets (Odyssey is only 1% fleet; Civic is about 2% fleet). Kia has the most significant % of fleet sales among the foreign brands. Even some sports cars go heavily to fleet - Chrysler Crossfire was 65%.

And as for the obvious question of "source," I have access to an online subscriber database that splits the sales. They are for 2007, though, not 2008.

KC, how do you like the Focus? It's a car I'd be interested in, since it's in the general price range of what I MIGHT be able to afford brand-new.

If you're looking into a new Focus; there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. The Focus was redesigned last year and its bodystyle lineup jiggled up a bit; the wagon and hatchbacks are gone, and a notchback coupe has joined the sedan.

2. Although it didn't make the above-top 10 list; I believe that the current Focus is Ford's best-selling CAR model at the moment. I usually see a fair amount of new Focuses (usually sedans) out on the road.

Someone I know bought a used '05 Focus 2-door hatchback (which is similar to the '07 model) not that long ago and they love it.

"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 24):What I can't figure out is how they can charge a $14-15,000 premium for the STI when it's slower than the basic WRX.

It's not slower, it does the same 0-60mph time (when it should be faster for the premium). The reasoning for the same time is that it is a 6speed manual rather than a 5speed manual. With the way the gears are set up you have to change into 3rd on the STI whilst you can make it in 2nd on the WRX.... that gear change costs the STI about 0.5 of a second in its 0-60 time.
It has a faster top speed, it has faster accelleration out of corners etc, and it has better suspension and more power. It is stiffer (has strut braces etc) not to mention it actually has quite a difference in body shape and looks better. But that is quite a large premium to pay. Despite their denials, I wouldn't be surprised it Subaru bumped up the power on the STI another 20HP.

I guess with gas back at reasonable prices and high-revenue truck sales picking up, the American automakers won't be needing that bail-out quite so soon? Maybe some were a little premature in calling the days of trucks and SUVs a thing of the past.

What you need to realize is that many of those models are sold as fleet vehicles. Many of those trucks sold went to utility companies, paramedics, tow truck companies, construction companies and other businesses.
The equivalent Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra just simply doesn't cut the mustard for industrial use.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):What you need to realize is that many of those models are sold as fleet vehicles. Many of those trucks sold went to utility companies, paramedics, tow truck companies, construction companies and other businesses.

No, they actually didn't.

Based on the latest data split, fleet sales only account for roughly 20% of F-Series sales; 17% of Silverado sales, 11% of Sierra sales, and less than 10% of Ram sales. Tundra is less than 2% fleet, but a larger percentage of Titan sales are fleet than either the Ram or Sierra.

I don't know where this myth that full-size pickups sell primarily to fleets come from. They don't.

I was correct.
You take those fleet sales away and I am sure they wouldn't rank as high.
Not sure why your data has the Silverado and Sierra listed as a separate truck. They are the same exact truck. Combined that comes to 28%.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 29):I wouldn't be surprised it Subaru bumped up the power on the STI another 20HP.

I think the 2009 STI is going to have 325 bhp. I saw one the other day and didn't really understand the four exhaust pipes - 1 for every ~75 horsepower, compared to the wrx was has 1 (or 2 in the sedan), a more appropriate 1 for every 265 bhp or 1 for every 132.5 bhp. Also, I'm not sure it looks better than a wrx. It's wide stance is too "look at me", with the swollen granny ankles and sti badges everywhere, it actually looks heavy rather than nimble; then again, you don't buy an sti to hide in the corolla crowd.
Also, might be of interest or not, even though the current sti is 40 bhp up on the wrx, it is also about 180 pounds heavier. With that said, nowadays Subaru will almost be forced to move to the dual clutch trannies with the next model for the sti. It'll be hard to compete without that. I personally love their 5 speeds; it's alot of fun. But that can stay with the wrx. the sti needs a dual clutcher in the next model line-up.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39):Remove those fleet sales, and they would still be #1 and #2, and the Ram would still be #7. The Impala is 60%+ fleet, it falls off the list.

Well guess there is a need for these kinds of trucks.
The OP was talking as if the success of these platforms was somehow a bad thing.
It would be bad if the top selling vehicles were something like a M-class, X-series or RX-series. Those gas-guzzling vehicles serve no purpose what so ever.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):Ford Crown Victoria is alive and well, but only sold to fleet customers. It was 93.8% fleet in 2007, so I doubt dealers are missing it much. Grand Marquis is 51% fleet.

The local Ford dealer has 3 2008 Crown Victoria's on their lot.
Even though they are no longer marketed to consumers, people can still buy one easily.
Not sure why since the Grand Marquis sells at the same price and has more trim and features.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):It would be bad if the top selling vehicles were something like a M-class, X-series or RX-series. Those gas-guzzling vehicles serve no purpose what so ever.

Not sure if you are saying that because you aren't a fan of car-based SUVs (I hate them too), but the M-Class is a truck-based SUV that is just as capable, if not more capable, than a Jeep Grand Cherokee or any other "real" SUV. Mercedes-Benz is a leader in 4WD technology and off-roaders, and has been in the SUV market for more than 30 years and has been making off-road vehicles since the early 1950s.

Furthermore, both the BMW X5 and Mercedes-Benz M-Class are offered with diesel engines that provide class-leading fuel efficiency; while the Lexus RX is offered in hybrid with class leading fuel efficiency.

Both the ML320 CDI and BMW X5d get nearly 30MPG in real world mileage. That's better than most family sedans.

I'd never be caught dead in an RX, but that doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose. The Lexus is more reliable than anything built by the Big 3, is nicely equipped, gets great gas mileage for its class and is reasonably priced.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):Even though they are no longer marketed to consumers, people can still buy one easily.

Leftover 2008 stock, yes. A new 2009? No.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):Not sure why since the Grand Marquis sells at the same price and has more trim and features.

70 year-old grandmas in Boca Raton need cars, too.

Back in the mid-1990s, the Mercury Grand Marquis was the best selling car in all of Florida. While that's no longer the case, Florida probably still accounts for the majority of the car's sales.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 36):With that said, nowadays Subaru will almost be forced to move to the dual clutch trannies with the next model for the sti. It'll be hard to compete without that. I personally love their 5 speeds; it's alot of fun. But that can stay with the wrx. the sti needs a dual clutcher in the next model line-up.

I agree that they need one preferably a 7 speed DSG. I'm not sure about in the US, but in most markets Subaru offers 2 versions of the STI (different weights) and there is also special order stripped down rally spec.

I don't believe that figure... The figures from Subaru and other tests indicate 5.3 seconds 0-62 (0-100km/h) so that would equate to 5.2 seconds 0-60. 4.7 seconds is incredibly quick for a standard car, If they just timed it during a test drive with a stopwatch or GPS then that might explain it because that could give +/- half a second easy.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but having personally assisted the Car and Driver Road Test Coodinator and several of their editors with conducting a comparison test at the Chrysler Proving Grounds in Chelsea, Michigan, I can assure you they take precision, consistency, and repeatability very seriously.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):but the M-Class is a truck-based SUV that is just as capable,

Capable for what?
I only see them driven by spoiled prima donnas.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):if not more capable, than a Jeep Grand Cherokee or any other "real" SUV. Mercedes-Benz is a leader in 4WD technology and off-roaders, and has been in the SUV market for more than 30 years and has been making off-road vehicles since the early 1950s.

Any examples of a German equivalent of the F-150 and Silvarado/Sierra that your upset is selling so well?

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but having personally assisted the Car and Driver Road Test Coodinator and several of their editors with conducting a comparison test at the Chrysler Proving Grounds in Chelsea, Michigan, I can assure you they take precision, consistency, and repeatability very seriously.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 47):Well I guess that means that Subaru has exceeded their claimed time..which is a good thing...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 44):
The figures from Subaru and other tests indicate 5.3 seconds 0-62 (0-100km/h) so that would equate to 5.2 seconds 0-60.

There is a remarkable varying of 0-60 times. Subaru themselves say 0-60 for the wrx in 5.4, almost everyone else (as in mags, etc) say 4.7-5.1

Notably, Subaru claims 0-60 for the US spec STI at 4.7 seconds. All the mags so far can't get it down below 4.9.

Interesting... As I mentioned previously the STI is a faster car in all aspects except 0-60 where it is either only slightly faster or the same due to it having to change into 3rd gear to get to 60 whereas the WRX can do it in 2nd gear.... this costs the STI about 0.5 sec overall.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):I guess with gas back at reasonable prices and high-revenue truck sales picking up, the American automakers won't be needing that bail-out quite so soon? Maybe some were a little premature in calling the days of trucks and SUVs a thing of the past.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 1):Which means people haven't learned their lesson and think Oil is going to be down permanently even when the economy recovers, which I think its going to be quite the opposite of what actually happens.

Some U.S. buyers do have short memories and will go back to big cars but I think most will now be sensible and not go bigger than they really need to. After last summers big price hike most buyers got the message and those who were buying at all generally went smaller or to Hybrids. I'm not yet ready to replace my 4-cylinder SUV but you can bet when I am my next car will get significantly better than the 22-23 MPG average I get now. I'd aim for at least 30 to 35 MPG for the next one which unfortunately would omit a lot of cars I covet, including the Mazda MX5 Miata which isn't that great for a 4 cylinder car, owing, I guess, to its sport orriented gearing.