Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Venerable Mettānando's interpretation of the Garudhamma is at odds with that of Ajahn Thanissaro. There is nothing there about bhikkhunis not being allowed to teach the Dhamma to bhikkhus.

BlueLotus wrote: personally I think the bhikkuni vinaya rules are not set by the Buddha.

Dunno, but if those rules were not given by the Buddha, then there had to have been a wholesale conspiracy almost immediately after the death of the Buddha to significantly alter the Vinaya involving virtually all of the monks.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

BlueLotus wrote: personally I think the bhikkuni vinaya rules are not set by the Buddha.

Dunno, but if those rules were not given by the Buddha, then there had to have been a wholesale conspiracy almost immediately after the death of the Buddha to significantly alter the Vinaya involving virtually all of the monks.

Which actually, given the time, and the attachment and the misguided conviction of believing that such a thing could not be possibly be permitted, is not beyond the realms of probability.

Misogyny is the world's oldest prejudice, according to the late Jack Holland, and he recounts the historical systematic and relentless suppression of women throughout the ages, by different factions such as Governments and religious bodies. When you consider that even in the so-called affluent and advanced west, women are consistently paid less than their male counterparts, and that of 30,000 people losing their jobs in the UK this past year, 26,000 of them have been women - I really don't believe such a conspiracy to be out of the question.

Fede wrote:How about coming up with some constructive evidence to counter-act the article?Although if it's just your opinion, many thanks for that.

Yes it is just my opinion. i didnt want to add more but since you ask.The evidence of this Mr. Mettanando is scurrilous (my opinion) . He says that if the Buddha set any of those weighty rules for nuns, or if he had said anything about using those rules as a dyke then the Buddha was a sexist. This he doesn't believe to be true so he searches for flimsy evidence and comes up with the idea that bhikkhuni werent allowed to teach monks (not true). Then he says that all evidence shows bhikkuni did most of the Dhamma teaching- what absolute nonsense - but I hope anyone can see it is irrelevant to his whole conspiracy theory that the later bhikkhu got together and placed these rules inside the sutta pitaka as a way to put their collective feet on the necks of the bhikkhuni.

I have no doubt that explaining this has no impact on you, simply because conspiracy theorists can always find reasons to belive in their current idea(check out the threads about people who believe it was bush who demolished the twin towers)/Mettanando, Sujato and their ilk will always appeal to the people who feel they know the true Buddha mind, which by amazing coincidence, is always aligned directly with their own beliefs, and not with the Tipitika.Like mrs caroline Rhys davids and her comments about monkish ideas coming into the Tipitaka (she didnt believe the buddha could have taught anatta), there will always be a stream of conspiracists, who grab the attention of the gullible....

BlueLotus wrote: personally I think the bhikkuni vinaya rules are not set by the Buddha.

Dunno, but if those rules were not given by the Buddha, then there had to have been a wholesale conspiracy almost immediately after the death of the Buddha to significantly alter the Vinaya involving virtually all of the monks.

Which actually, given the time, and the attachment and the misguided conviction of believing that such a thing could not be possibly be permitted, is not beyond the realms of probability.

I am not saying it is impossible, but more than doctrine, it was the Vinaya that defined the group. It was something that resisted change for that reason. Also, this conspiracy would have to have happened almost immediately after the Buddha's death before any sectarian division and before significant separations of distance. I do not think it is really meaningful or helpful to try to make the Buddha into a 21st Century man.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Mettanando Bhikkhu is a Thai Buddhist monk and a former physician. He studied at Chulalongkorn University, Oxford and Harvard, and received a PhD from Hamburg. He is special adviser on Buddhist affairs to the secretary-general of the World Conference of Religions for Peace.

Apparently he is an M.D. and a Ph.D. and earned those degrees at prestigious, accredited universities. Why would you call him Mr. and not Dr. or at least venerable?

The venerable Dr. might be incorrect on some of his views (in your opinion), but that doesn't remove any of his scholarly education degrees or titles, including venerable.

Mettanando Bhikkhu is a Thai Buddhist monk and a former physician. He studied at Chulalongkorn University, Oxford and Harvard, and received a PhD from Hamburg. He is special adviser on Buddhist affairs to the secretary-general of the World Conference of Religions for Peace.

Apparently he is an M.D. and a Ph.D. and earned those degrees at prestigious, accredited universities. Why would you call him Mr. and not Dr. or at least venerable?

The venerable Dr. might be incorrect on some of his views (in your opinion), but that doesn't remove any of his scholarly education degrees or titles, including venerable.

I earned my Phd at a good uni too, does everyone want to start calling me Dr. robert on this list?

It would be inappropriate, I think, to call an ex-monk venerable.

Anyway I have no respect at all for this ex-venerable Dr. He says the ancient Theravada bhikkhu were involved in a conspiracy of vast proportions to change the Tipitaka to suit their nefarious purposes. The Doctor is a defamer of the arahats, and a distorter of the teachings. He should be shunned and shamed at every opportunity, the man is a clown. (with all due respect to his academic titles of course). In my humble opinion .

Last edited by robertk on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fede wrote:Misogyny is the world's oldest prejudice, according to the late Jack Holland, and he recounts the historical systematic and relentless suppression of women throughout the ages, by different factions such as Governments and religious bodies. When you consider that even in the so-called affluent and advanced west, women are consistently paid less than their male counterparts, and that of 30,000 people losing their jobs in the UK this past year, 26,000 of them have been women - I really don't believe such a conspiracy to be out of the question.

I don't think a conspiracy such as this would have allowed the Therigatha. Also, in the Theragatha, a monk is depicted as awakening after hearing a nun teach Dhamma.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

There's something I don't understand: why would the "conspiracy" have to be right after the Buddha's death and not centuries later?

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' (Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Fede wrote:Misogyny is the world's oldest prejudice, according to the late Jack Holland, and he recounts the historical systematic and relentless suppression of women throughout the ages, by different factions such as Governments and religious bodies. When you consider that even in the so-called affluent and advanced west, women are consistently paid less than their male counterparts, and that of 30,000 people losing their jobs in the UK this past year, 26,000 of them have been women - I really don't believe such a conspiracy to be out of the question.

I don't think a conspiracy such as this would have allowed the Therigatha. Also, in the Theragatha, a monk is depicted as awakening after hearing a nun teach Dhamma.

Also, the Itivuttaka, which is traditionally held to have been recited by a slave woman.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' (Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)