What Do Men Learn About Rape Growing Up?

Not too long ago, the Steubenville, OH, rape case met the news feed and men everywhere were asked to teach other men not to rape. I, however, decided that it was an important time to remind women that not all men are predisposed rapists. My dad never had an explicit conversation with me about rape, he only talked to me about using good judgment. As I grew up, I learned the rules and the law but still it came down to where I stood morally. I still stand beside this statement, “I’m one of the men who doesn’t rape women.” I’ve always shied away from women who were intoxicated or under the influence when trying to have sex with them. I didn’t want it that way and there’s a large amount of men who feel the same way.

Growing up, we all are put in positions where we experience situations before lessons are taught. However, I was raised in a home where men didn’t think that just because you saw a short skirt you interpreted that as, “she wants it.” It just doesn’t mean that. If a woman is wearing a revealing outfit it means that is what she decided to wear that night. Nothing more.

It’s also important to point out that men very seldom will have a seat at the table to discuss these topics because it’s not something for men to debate with women. The conversations men have with each other behind closed doors are much more important.

Men talk a big game when around women but when they’re around each other they share their inner thoughts. I tell men all the time, “you don’t have to deal with women who don’t do what you want to do.” I also say you need to know that no woman consents to sex without saying, “yes.” I’m not going to act like there aren’t men who act like a woman who is flirting heavily with them at a party is consenting to that. That happens and I can admit it. But what I can say is that there are a large number of men who do their best to not only avoid situations like that but also share with others how to avoid those situations.

I tell my younger friends that they should shy away from sleeping with women who are intoxicated. They should always obtain explicit consent before crossing that line with women. It’s hard for some to understand but not most. It really boils down to having positive role models. If you see a man who is having luck in his sex life without having to resort to alcohol or drugs, then you’ll likely feel challenged to do the same.

Can men avoid these situations? Yes. Joseph definitely fled Potipher’s residence and that’s a powerful message to share. Sometimes you have to have the power within to say, “This is not how I want it, no matter how much I want it, not like this.” Do women sometimes manipulate men into situations that they may find themselves skating the line? Yes. But as men, if we claim to be in control of our actions we can’t let ourselves lose focus because we’ve had a few drinks or may be under the influence.

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"I tell my younger friends that they should shy away from sleeping with women who are intoxicated."
I have been in that situation a few times and I turn it down every time. Even took one woman and helped her sober up. All it takes is for her to say she was rape and everyone remembering they saw you dancing on her or whatever. Even if you didn't do it, your reputation will be damage enough. I do what I can to avoid situations like that.

I remember about 3 or 4 months ago, my buddy invited this girl and her friend over. She was drunk off her azz, so I didn't even attempt to make a move on her. I understand that could have been her intentions. Getting drunk and having sex but I just didn't feel right about that. Now if she would been chilling with me and was got drunk together then its different.

As a man, you gotta know how to control the situation. Its hard but you gotta handle it.

Well that's true as well. This is why I just avoid trying to sleep with a drunk woman.

http://twitter.com/RealGoesRight @RealGoesRight

I don't have sex with women that don't explicitly consent. I've actually "lost out" on opportunities with women to sleep with them, because I didn't want to make a first move. I didn't want to make a first move because I never wanted the woman to be uncomfortable or feel like she was forced to do anything. Additionally, I never wanted a woman to feel like because of the pressure of the moment, she either couldn't say no or she just had to go along because she'd be worried something bad would happen to her if she said no.

I've tried to discuss rape with women and ways they could possible prevent it from happening. I also got my ass handed to me for that discussion. It was an awkward moment, because what I thought I was doing was looking out for women. It somehow got interpreted that I was blaming the victim and not holding the rapist responsible. Now that I'm thinking on it, I want to say I think women should include men in the discussion of rape and rape culture. As I type this though, I don't really have a good enough answer as to how to make that possible. But I'll take a cue from you and start talking to the younger cats about the importance of respecting women in that manner. It's a terrible thing to have someone violate your person and I couldn't imagine what it's like to be a woman and have someone take something like that away from me.

Great post, bro.

Larry

"I've tried to discuss rape with women and ways they could possible prevent it from happening. I also got my ass handed to me for that discussion. It was an awkward moment, because what I thought I was doing was looking out for women. It somehow got interpreted that I was blaming the victim and not holding the rapist responsible"

As well. This is the reason I don't go out of my way to engage in a high level discussion on the topic with the fairer s*x. It's just one of those topics I feel in which if your opinion (no matter how positive) is anyway different than, no matter how small, to that of the woman then it's just interpreted in a whole different way and it's took to the opposite end of the spectrum of what you're really trying to convey.

Hopefully I can get better in communicating w/o accidentlally offending.

WIM

I've actually "lost out" on opportunities with women to sleep with them, because I didn't want to make a first move. +1000

I'm not going to touch on rape, in this particular comment (see below), but this is an interesting duality between men and women. I know for a fact I've passed up on a lot of sex and/or missed out on a lot of sex because I wasnt "aggressive enough." It seems that's it ok to "take it" if a woman likes you – in fact, you could argue that's what most women want (from a man they like). Aggressive, dominance, etc. However, the line between being aggressive and being the guy she wants to be aggressive is so grey, blurred, or outright invisible, that I usually side on being passive until I get 100 green flags and a couple "yes, pleases." I'd def rather be accused of being too passive than ever being a rapist simply because I misinterpreted a woman's ever-changing signals and consents.

Uncle Hugh, BP

WIM: "However, the line between being aggressive and being the guy she wants to be aggressive is so grey, blurred, or outright invisible, that I usually side on being passive until I get 100 green flags and a couple "yes, pleases." I'd def rather be accused of being too passive than ever being a rapist simply because I misinterpreted a woman's ever-changing signals and consents."

This. When the crime is defined by what she feels, just be super cautious. Other opportunities will come.

slimmycakez

"Additionally, I never wanted a woman to feel like because of the pressure of the moment, she either couldn't say no or she just had to go along because she'd be worried something bad would happen to her if she said no."

I respect you so much for this especially! I didn't think guys were actually aware of this, but you proved me wrong.

Dr. J

Best way to try and discuss ways that women can prevent rape is to pin it on someone else but that's about it. Like if you say, "I heard they be putting sh*t in girls' drinks" or "I hear he raped a chick before" that will get them to not hang out with those guys or that guy. If you say, "Watch your drink" or "Just know what's in the weed" you're now skating a thin line.

BUT… if you say, "If you go over there drunk, one of those dudes is going to try and rape you."

Fingers will be raised and waved because it's like you blaming her for it.

This is also why men don't talk so much.

Adonis

Links are in a separate comment. (•1•)

Obligatory PC Disclaimer: Adonis in no way shape or form, condones or promotes the s-xual assault of any person, anywhere on this planet.

If you commit s-xual assault, you deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the law in your jurisdiction.

ALSO.

If you have been sexually assaulted in the past, and you still burdened by it or you are just some Professional Victim out there looking to project your BS onto my comment.

1. I do not understand pro-women advocates & feminists when it comes to their stance on FALSE RAPE ALLEGATIONS

Just like we do not know, how many unreported rapes are out there, we cannot accurately quantify how many women out there are LYING about getting raped to satisfy some agenda. But that is not the point.

When the situations like Hofstra gangbang case, Brian Banks, Duke Lacrosse Scandal, & late great Merlin Santana incident happen (but the girl in this case did serve time), we as a society/feminists don’t penalize these people to KILL THE INCENTIVE (jailtime) for women who make false accusations.

So what happens next, is that every woman in America who accuses a man of sexual assault is scrutinized, and the word legitimate rape is a real term.

Boggles the mind, how we advocate on one half of the coin, but neglect the other side of the coin.

—————————————

2. CONSENT IS A GRAY AREA. 50 Shades of Grey.

2a. Now, personally I believe in an enthusiastic yes (and a camcorder nearby to film just in case) when it come to relations.

But I understand what it is like for a men & women out there trying to get laid.

Someone asked the poignant question which still doesn’t have an answer.

If a drunk person cannot consent to sex, but both parties are “drunk”, who gets prosecuted?

I need answers

2b. I am an avid fan of the Scandal TV show which gets monster ratings among the Black female (feminist) Twitter crowd (Go ride that pink peen!!!).

And these females & some simps out there were giving me a problem about the statement above. (•1•)

Links posted in separate comment

However while the same females caused an small uproar when Tyler Perry’s Temptation Movie alluded to sexual assault (gray area)

BUT nobody (but Chescaleigh with great reluctance) called THIS SCENE (•2•) out.

She clearly refused is advances in that scene, but he persisted. Rape occurred on national TV show, and there was little to no outrage

If ten dudes tried that on ten women. Half of them would in jail. All of them would have the potential to go down even if she enjoyed it.

I watched Scandal 5 times in its entirety ALL THE WAY THROUGH and I missed this scene.

Now according to the feminists out there. It doesn’t matter how many times a man slept with a woman before. Or if he is in mid-stroke

No Means No. Unless your the guy she likes.

3. Last point, it is not my duty as a man to worry about women and the men that VIOLATE them. This is 2013, and we DO NOT operate in a patriarchy, especially in Black America. When women wanted to be free from the authority of men, that came at a price.

Women’s liberation is freedom from the authority of men. Men’s liberation is the freedom from responsibility to women. I’ll be poolside. @Man_Private (•3•)

Also, women should only consult the men they are sleeping with. Maybe even their male family members

So, that means if bad & illegal things happen to women in this climate, it is par for the course, the price of doing business.

If you are unfamiliar with the false rape case I referenced, just Google them & Dr. Google will deliver in ways I never could.

Good day.

http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

I know better than to do this but….*cracks knuckles*

I find it mind-boggling that you, of all people, have the nerve to tell people to check their issues at the door before commenting.

1) Show me one article, ANY article where a "feminist" has EVER said that false rape accusations are okay. You know what I CAN show you???? Articles that call out false rape allegation because it makes it HARDER for real victims to be believed. The Duke Lacrosse girl got blasted. The black girl in SoCal got blasted and has to give ALL of her money back. Please miss me on that.

2)The number of "unfounded" rape allegations is two percent. Unfounded does not mean simply false. Unfounded also means not enough evidence which can be due to a long lag time, conflicting stories, lack of proof of physical force. Rape cases RARELY make it to trial without enough evidence because it's too risky; he said-she said goes either way. 2010 study showed that 37% of rape cases are even prosecuted, and OF THOSE 18% of them end in a conviction. People keep citing nationally covered cases and urban legends about their cousin Tay-Tay's baby mama as if they aren't outliers, as if they don't know that it's only news if the plane crashes.

3) Consent isn't a gray area. People need to stop perpetuating that myth. First of all, legally, the responsibility for misinterpretation when either party has been drinking falls on the initiator of further sexual activity (regardless of gender). Second of all, it is not that hard to have s*x in the morning after you've sobered up. Are you afraid that she's going to see you and change her mind? You can also have a conversation before you get lit. Why are you only intiating contact with women once they're faded? Who wants to smash someone who's falling over themselves?

4) Attractive men are rapists too. Boyfriends are rapists too. Husbands are rapists too. Stop projecting your issues with women just because those are your feelings. The majority of rapes are done by an acquaintance – somebody you trust and like.

5) Plenty of people vocalized their issues with that scene – myself included. Did you want all of us to CC you on it? Why do we have to prove to you that we care ??

I am shocked we are having this conversation. Although, I refuse to crack my knuckles.

I find it mind-boggling that you, of all people, have the nerve to tell people to check their issues at the door before commenting.

Although, I will never be objective, I am as fair as they come. But it doesn’t matter if negroes are biased.

1) Show me one article, ANY article where a “feminist” has EVER said that false rape accusations are okay. You know what I CAN show you???? Articles that call out false rape allegation because it makes it HARDER for real victims to be believed. The Duke Lacrosse girl got blasted. The black girl in SoCal got blasted and has to give ALL of her money back. Please miss me on that.

I read a lot of modern day feminist literature. I read ClutchMagOnline (recommended by SargeWP) with mostly features black feminist writers

Remember, MainStreamMedia blasted those Black women who lied about those offenses, not feminists. A judge ordered for that girl, to give all the money back.

If she was white & made those accusations, she would have been protected. Politics

Now, the public held those women accountable, but we are talking about well-known, identified feminist & pro-women advocates

Feminist, rarely holds women’s feet to the fire, because the collective mindset is that women are victims through & through.

Show me the carfax.

And I applaud you if you do, I am not here to discredit you, but you as a fellow Scandal fan know that Optics is everything.

Feminists do not speak out against false rape accusers & frankly don’t care. Women were victims somehow. THAT is your narrative.

2)The number of “unfounded” rape allegations is two percent. Unfounded does not mean simply false. Unfounded also means not enough evidence which can be due to a long lag time, conflicting stories, lack of proof of physical force. Rape cases RARELY make it to trial without enough evidence because it’s too risky; he said-she said goes either way. 2010 study showed that 37% of rape cases are even prosecuted, and OF THOSE 18% of them end in a conviction. People keep citing nationally covered cases and urban legends about their cousin Tay-Tay’s baby mama as if they aren’t outliers, as if they don’t know that it’s only news if the plane crashes.

That two percent stat need re-evaluate. I do not expect it to stand the test of time. I will not research, and I am not interested in a pissing match, so I will concede that point.

And again, I am not mad that the plane crashes, because crashes do happen. The response by those who say they care about the welfare of women I am intrigued by.

—————

Assuming your stats are true, I do understand how tough/problematic it is to prove a rape occurred in this country. Especially all the dynamics that are in play aka intersectionality.

When an actual rape has taken place, women do what it best for them. Report, don’t report. Insufficient evidence.

Justice does not always prevail!

But you watch Scandal, so you know that already

In that respect, women do have a case. This is why you need to support “your” men. And this is what happen when you sh*t on your nice/decent/good men. Ninjas stop caring, and basically say, you are on your own.

Ask the men you are fcuking to handle the “rape” problem.

3) Consent isn’t a gray area. People need to stop perpetuating that myth. First of all, legally, the responsibility for misinterpretation when either party has been drinking falls on the initiator of further sexual activity (regardless of gender). Second of all, it is not that hard to have s*x in the morning after you’ve sobered up. Are you afraid that she’s going to see you and change her mind? You can also have a conversation before you get lit. Why are you only intiating contact with women once they’re faded? Who wants to smash someone who’s falling over themselves?

Thanks for answering my question. I got educated.

S-xual politics is complicated. We can agree to disagree on this.

Consent in (legal) theory & spirit is BLACK & WHITE

I am talking about real world scenarios.

I will keep my camcorder close by.

And drunk women are very attractive to some men, and some women need alcohol for plausible deniability purposes.

Regret is not rape.

4) Attractive men are rapists too. Boyfriends are rapists too. Husbands are rapists too. Stop projecting your issues with women just because those are your feelings. The majority of rapes are done by an acquaintance – somebody you trust and like.

Agreed

5) Plenty of people vocalized their issues with that scene – myself included. Did you want all of us to CC you on it? Why do we have to prove to you that we care ??

Stop it with your fake-@ss outrage.

Rick Ross UOENO got outrage. Tyler Perry got a little outrage, although I would argue because the movie was terrible , not because of the scene.

There is fake outrage, and their is outrage. Know the difference.

Y’all gave Shonda a PASS. Because the show was good, and chances are, the right guy could get away with that if he is attractive enough Now, if Scandal was trash as far as quality, maybe it would get more outrage.

When women wanted to be free from the authority of men, that came at a price.

So, that means if bad & illegal things happen to women in this climate, it is par for the course, the price of doing business.

ARE YOU FUCKING HIGH, DUDE??? You cannot, CANNOT be serious about these comments. The price of women getting out the kitchen, being independent, gaining jobs, access and education….is RAPE??? I'm sorry, are you a member of the Congo Nationalist Party???

Single Black Male: You need to get this Adonis dude under control in 2013. You might want to leave his controversial postings up for ratings, but this SHIT is going to damn far now. Think about your brand.

Adonis

@LoveOrLeaveIt

When women wanted to be free from the authority of men, that came at a price.

So, that means if bad & illegal things happen to women in this climate, it is par for the course, the price of doing business.

Hey! Those are MY comments. Like looking through a mirror

ARE YOU FUCKING HIGH, DUDE???

You hit me with the Stephen A!

“You Need To Be Drug Tested!!!”

Kudos

You cannot, CANNOT be serious about these comments.

Oh, but I am. There is no boss you can call, so you can get me fired, and I will never ever run for public office, so I will be freer than Mr. Cee with some Booty shorts & Jason Collins Jersey at a Summer Jam concert!!!

The price of women getting out the kitchen, being independent, gaining jobs, access and education….is RAPE???

No. Although when when you are ready to crucify me, that will be your rallying cry.

It just means that you have the freedom to do whatever you want in 2013, why are you still holding men to the 1950’s.

Go get gun, pepper spray, or a rape whistle & handle your business.

And if you are a black woman, you are definitely on your own!!!

I’m sorry, are you a member of the Congo Nationalist Party???

Explain!

Single Black Male: You need to get this Adonis dude under control in 2013. You might want to leave his controversial postings up for ratings, but this SHIT is going to damn far now. Think about your brand.

Good Day @LoveItOrLeaveIt

You would think with a handle like that. You would like my comment or leave it alone, but asking women to be consistent on anything is too much to ask in 2013.

Goodnight Sweetheart

http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

I avoided two of these situations before, i was never “taught” not to rape, I was taught respect for women and dont smang incoherent women was kinda assumed. I’ll take that missed opportunity before I take that case, or hell just that overwhelming feeling of guilt. The way I see it, if she with it tonight, she’d be with it next time…a woman who needs to be drunk to be be about hers already screams immaturity and i have no time for that.

DeKeLa

I don't think it needs to be taught or discussed any further in male circles because it is NOT a large subset of male populace committing rape. It is a criminal and immoral act codoned by a marginal group of sick men. No guy with a clear mind or halfway decent upbringing needs to be sat down and taught "Now Johnny, don't you go physically attacking that women and forcing yourself on her"

What we ARE taught, is to protect oneself and try to avoid situations where it can be perceived as such, as that is the conversation worth having. The stigma and fallout of a false accusation is a Scarlet letter no man wants to bear.

Jay Dee

These little shitheads think rape is a joke. With little bitch niggas like big Sean telling females to bow down and Ross fat fuck ass slipping Molly in drinks (ps mdma is water soluble) I'd be hesitant about that girls weekend to miami.

But on some really real shit, this get "Trippy" shit needs to turn down. Dissassociatives will get you doing some ill shit and you won't even know it.

Women need to stay 1000k out here cuz niggas is raised on that ultraviolence.

I read something awhile back about rape culture and how hyper aggressive hyper dominant mindsets rewire people to revert back to primal instincts. Ladies please protect yourselves out here, you are too beautiful to fall victim to some scumfuck.

http://www.greaterunderstanding.net Anthony Brian Logan

Everybody grows up knowing the difference between right and wrong. You know its wrong to do something that is against someone's will. Fact is that some people willfully disregard their own moral conscious and do wrong anyway. Women have to protect themselves from assault and rape just like men have to protect themselves from assault and sometimes rape (not just in jail) I didnt even read the article but I already know where it's going. Trying to say that women shouldn't have to protect themselves and men should know better. Thats living in a fantasy world and unfortunately that's not where we at.
My recent post AN OPEN LETTER TO THE SUPERSTAR ATL MALL COP

Chris

The "don't rape" discussion came during "the talk", and during general discussions about respecting women, being chivalrous, etc.

WIM

Good post.

As y'all have probably noticed, I don't talk about rape. I'm not immune or blind to the echo-chambers going around in the blogosphere but I have largely and purposefully chosen to remain on the sidelines. I'm not positive the Internet is a place to have conducive, meaningful discussions about rape. Too many emotions, not enough logic, and it usually just dissolves to finger-pointing.

That said, I do have have a draft in the queue on what I think the bigger issues is. In my opinion, the larger issues and therefore problem is not that we have a rape culture, but that we have a culture of silence, in which rape-culture is a subset. The fact that we have a culture of silence permeates a larger number of sub-issues. e.g. a culture of silence allows – cities like Chicago to dissolve into violence with annual homicide rates greater than most war zones; it allows Lehman Brothes and other large financial institutions to drive the global economy into near collapse while not a single financial institution or person is held legally responsible; and lastly, it allows men to rape women, then blame women for "allowing" themselves to get raped or as we are familiar with the term, "victim blaming." These are just a few examples of a myriad of issues that negatively impact our society, which I believe, are all under the umbrella of a culture of silence. Therefore, to address these underlying issues, we must also recognize the overlapping issue. Addressing a one off issue is the equivalent of trying to chop down a tree by breaking off the branches.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the answer to the world's/USA's problems – at least not a simple one. But I do recognize that these subcultures will continue to grow (although rape, homicide, and violent crimes is statistically lower than ever – but arguably, one rape, violent/preventable death, and crime is theoretically always one too many) as long as this larger cultural of intolerance and silence about that intolerance exist. As J noted in his post and RealGoesRight spoke on above, it's hard to move towards a solution when we can't even openly talk about the problem without being chastised, our motives questions, dismissed or outright told to "shut the f*ck up."

On a personal level, as someone on MadameNoire said – which is surprising I actually agree given the tone of the comments over there – I believe the first and easiest step is not to "teach men not to rape" or to "teach women not to get raped," it's to focus on teaching men to respect women as equals and women to respect and recognize themselves as equals to men. A number of these issues arise because a number of men (and women) see themselves as unequal, often times below. It's much easier to repress or look down upon the rights of another individual human being when you don't see them as your equal or, in some cases, as even human. This has been dictated throughout history, with slavery being the most obvious example. In order to repress another or seek power over another, you often have to see them as below you or "second class." I believe a good first step, would be to teach men to recognize and respect women as their equals – a direction, for the record, I believe we are moving in but obviously we aren't there yet.

I know this comment is long AF, but this topic warrants lengthy discussion.

http://twitter.com/NIAnaturally @NIAnaturally

Great comment!

Southerngyrl_

Culture of silence. This seems like an interesting take on this discussion. I would definitely read the final product once you're finished with it.

_passionandlove

On another note, I find it interesting that Dr.J writes a post about the lack of coversation about rape in men circles, but has another recent post about Kanye West's Yeezus, that has oppressive verbal imagery on it consistent with the idea of rape and thinks it is "disgustingly awesome art" . I guess. . . .

I'm going to go on a little tangent for a second.
I honestly hate the discussion of rape because the majority of it revolves around propaganda, myth and agenda fueled hysteria. The remaining factions of it is actually sad and disheartening for the TRUE victims of REAL rape who's real suffering is undermined by political motivation and rape opportunists.

Either way, rape is reprehensible and wrong. But we all know that already. Even the one's who commit it know its wrong.

As far as the liquor is concerned…
My only advice is for the men:
1. If you have never smashed shortie yet and there is liquor involved, DON"T DO IT. Pass on that @ss, cause your future cell mate will certainly not pass on yours.

2. Invest in a video camera with night vision capabilities. It is the only way to ensure YOU don't become the victim of a false rape accusation or 'the morning after regret' masquerading as rape.

3. So long as there are women involved in any situation, YOU as the man will ALWAYS bear the brunt of the responsibility and held accountable for anything that goes awry. Keep this in mind.

4. With that said, always remember that women are a protected class and can do no wrong, so it would behoove you to never allow yourself to be placed in any questionable situation or compromising position. Be proactive. Look out for yourself first and always. Even if you got to pass on that big butt and smile just to ensure you don't get caught slipping.

5. Stop relying on liquor to get @ss because that is a real sign you have no game, no charisma, and are flat out wack. If you have to drug up a girl to get the pums, you are by all means a rapist and deserve all the shame and stoning that comes with being one.

That’s golden advice. Especially 2. I’ve got voice recorders at the crib and in the car. Always nice when dealing with a woman you don’t know or the police. Cuz at the end of the day I’m not trying to be a black man in front of a jury and all I have is “it wasn’t me”

Anthony S

What I learned about rape growing up is that women hold all the cards. I’d never be so pressed that I would rape or hit it in that gray area. So the only thing that I should consider when making decisions is the fact that a woman can cry rape and my name is blasted in the press, I’d probably lose my job since its security/safety sensitive, and could potentially lose my freedom. Even if the allegation is proven unfounded I’d forever have that asterisk by my name. My accuser would suffer no consequences for lying. She might be mad at me for something else, or might want the money from victim funds or my funds.

Rape is bad and shouldn’t happen to anyone. False accusations are bad and shouldn’t happen to anyone. Both are terrible crimes but both victims are not protected by shield laws, and both don’t have a whole industry supporting their attacker being brought to justice.