Tarpa wrote:In as much as magic and witchcraft are fundamentally based on an understanding of the 5 elements they can in fact lead towards real wisdom, as well as a connection to life and nature, these traditions are much much more earthy and grounding than Buddhism and so they may help somebody in that way also, this is the main reason I am also a witch in the western tradition as well as a Buddhist. Buddhism provides my soteriological p.o.v. and I've no doubt its wisdom of things as they are is 100% correct and completely whole, and it is a coherent living tradition, but I find buddhists to be a bit airy and spacey, whereas witchcraft grounds me and I need that because I'm very airy and spacey by nature. I'm not saying the western traditions will lead to liberation but I'll say that in some aspects they approach wisdom, since the elements are so fundamental to it. Now if someone diefies the elements and considers the elements as sacred this is approaching true wisdom, regarding the elements as pure, all as diety, well buddhism isn't the only system that does this. Nor is it the only system that that doesn't accept a creator god, or considers all phemonena as unborn, or sees the moment of initial " creation " of duality, the original split and " fall " into the wheel of samsara, nor is it the only system that sees light as being the subtle praxis and basis of corporeal manifestation, and manifestation as a progression from the subtle to the gross, nor is it the only system that sees integration / union of materiality and purity. Tantra weaves the sacred into the mundane like a loom, witchcraft is also a weaving. Buddhism goes all the way into things 100% but other traditions approach and understand quite a lot of things to some extent really. After 10 years of vajrayana study and practice I have realized that at least for me attaining wisdom by understanding the 5 elements on all levels is better than studying madhyamika forever or getting caught up in all the conceptual proliferation from the monastic machine and gradualist systems, I think nirvana is realized by thoroughly understanding samsara and the way to wisdom is through the earth and the elements, there's also tremendous joy to be found here and a deep feeling of connection and respect to life and ones environment, nature. I would say this has value. I think the systems that promote an understanding of the 5 elements are the most useful systems, such as dzogchen, bon shamanism, and vajrayana but dzogchen goes all the way into it, bon shamnism and western magical systems and witchcraft also have quite a lot of wisdom here. All things are made of the 5 elements including mind, all the world and experience is the 5 elements. Every atom contains the 5 elements. Approaching ultimate wisdom through wisdom of the 5 elements is an approach that retains the earths horizon in its absolute view, it's easier to find integration here, nothing is practical if it can't be integrated in ones experience, one isn't lost in space carrying around a huge cosmic concept on their back called " emptiness " and walking a tightrope of nihilism while trying to view the world and experience through a concept, I would ask how much good that is doing anybody. There is also tremendous, easy, natural, integration through wisdom of the 5 elements and this wisdom will lead directly to wisdom of the basis in an experiential, natural way. There are many ways of saying things or pointing towards something, getting caught up in terminology regarding the absolute nature of things is a very sad prison.

Does Lhug-Pa's mention of 'homosexual acts' and 'racism' connote that these are both negative actions? Maybe he/she/it should understand that for many homophobia is as negative as racism. Prejudice is prejudice.

Kunga wrote:Does Lhug-Pa's mention of 'homosexual acts' and 'racism' connote that these are both negative actions? Maybe he/she/it should understand that for many homophobia is as negative as racism. Prejudice is prejudice.

Lhug-Pa's posts have quite consistently been homophobic for some time.

In the novel 'Moonchild', Crowley has a figure who represents himself as he ultimately wished to be, as opposed to the character in the book representing himself using his Magick.

The character is called Simon Iff, who deals with a 'watcher' spirit by walking into it and overwhelming it with compassion.

This is not a world away from a Buddhist ritual which uses offerings etc to move on troublesome spirits, in which the most powerful protection for the practitioner is huge compassion for the spirits, as well as those they are affecting. The spirits cannot defeat a mind filled with compassion.

Of course, it is not recommended to test how compassionate you are by offering to conduct an exorcism and seeing how you get on!

Yes, Theosophy is opposed to channeling and any kind of mediumship and New Age stuff. But New Age was (because nowdays it goes under a new term that I cannot recall right now), a child of Theosophy. It may in the end, ended up being a circus of mixed ideas but surely for me who grew up following many post-new age groups has taught me to be open minded to any type of spiritual movement. For me it was the work with channeled information tha led me study Bhuddhism, and I am thankful to the movement and I will continue to practice channeling and Buddhism at the same time till the end of my days... I know that a lot of people will disagree with this combination but, this comes from my own experiences and I am not here to argue if my path is right or wrong.

New age is bits and pieces of witch tradition, theosophy was also bits and pieces of witch tradition mixed with eastern mysticism and maybe a pinch of ceremonial magick, witch tradition itself is bits and pieces of traditions from many cultures. This is why they are so open minded about things, because their own tradition has always encompassed many cultures and traditions, I used to have a quite negative view about new age but have come to have a different opinion of it now, and have come to appreciate the open mindedness characteristic of people into it, and the freshness of not having to deal with people entrenched in an organized religion, and one of wich for all their intellectual proliferation and parroting of books still usually have a very very hard time understanding even what they are attempting to practice and follow, in my 10 years of practice and almost 10 years of online interaction and observation in Buddhist forums, for all that time there's only been a few people I consider to actually understand what they're talking about and practicing. Anyways, yes I too find interactions with people and some practices outside the Buddhist community to be refreshing, although I definitely feel Buddhism goes all the way into things, I think some other traditions have some " compartmentalized " wisdom regarding some things. I think the more one understands Buddhadharma the less one is attached to the letter of it, and structures in general. First there is a mountain, then there isn't, then there is. At some point one comes back down to earth finally and starts seeing wisdom all around and not only in books of such and such a tradition. I.m.o.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

actually as far as I know theosophy isn't anything to do with witch traditions really but more along the lines of the typical western judeo / christian so called " mysticism " ala solomon, agrippa, the kabbalah etc., and eastern thought, however garbled, I really don't know much about theosophy, but I met the so called reincarnation of Blavatsky, Erma Pounds, the controversial teacher at the phoenix karma kagyu center, all her old students at that center regarded her as blavatsky as did she herself, and she mainly taught theosophy to this inner circle, it was a very weird cultic atmosphere at that center, I didn't dig it at all, I remember she thought diety and mantra practices were balogney, and this was at an official KTD center, albeit historically controversial. I remember being parked in the parking lot there before anyone arrived for the evening teachings and she pulled up in her car but looked at me like she was scared and stayed in her car until others arrived, so I thought what a load of bollocks, she's blavatsky like I'm the king of france. Sorry for going off topic. Read a bit about theosophy during that time but wasn't impressed in the least, also read about her life story and thought she was full of it.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

I wish the edit option didn't expire so soon, just wanted to say something about Crowley since he was brought up, on one hand he was the most influential man in the 20th century occult world, on the other hand he was a spoiled rich kid and messed up a lot of people, culminating in his putrid " church " in Cefalu, what he did to peoples heads in his beloved church of thelema was horrible, some commited suicide in its wake, he messed with people throughout his whole life and enjoyed it, he was quite an egomaniac. In the end he founded a so called religion wich amounted to nothing more than doing lots of drugs and engaging in the deepest depravities one could imagine, lots of twisted sex, including group sex with his girlfriend, and with animals. He always had an extremely childish proclivity for acting out an adolescent rebellion against his mother, the church, and childish pornographic poems and drawings, the walls of the church of thelema in cefalu are covered with many of his silly paintings and pornographic writing. In any case many people, myself included, don't think much about the systems he was practicing anyways, the solomon, agrippa, kabbalah, egyptian, enochian etc. ceremonial magick trip, and the golden dawn was founded by rosicrucians, anybody getting into that stuff will soon find themselves choking to death on judeo / christian terminology and principles, these systems aren't considered to yield much result as opposed to others these days by many, personally I think ceremonial magicians just like dressing up in ridiculous looking robes and playing with swords.Oh and in any case no it doesn't matter at all about spirit guides on the Buddhist path at all, ones guide is one's inherent nature. Buddhism by far trumps any system on the planet, I mean don't get me wrong I'm Buddhist, I've just been studying some other things, I was getting more than a bit " stale " and I needed some fresh air, kinda expanding my horizons and having a look around, but Buddhism will always be central to me, I'm being mindful of keeping my balance while studying other things and practicing some simple benevalent forms of witchcraft such as with working with herbs etc. it connects me to nature, grounds me, I moved to an area near a lot of wilderness including 3 lakes and a haunted mountain ( superstition mountain ) so I think my hippy side is coming out again lol.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

Buddhism is ONE of the most powerful systems of religion..Shamanism in the Amazon, Peru, Mexico, and even in Ancient Tibet proved to be powerful, Even Hawaiian Huna is a pretty powerful system. But Buddhism and these things all Connect and concord with one another.

I think when you put African Shamanism religions like Palo Mayombe, Kimbanda, Santeria(Ocha) and lucumi together, it has a lot of Buddhist crossover and layover.

What i found out was The Jewish prophet Moses, and Elijah, and Jesus, and King David And King Solomon were shamans, and had direct conversation with God. Perhaps buddhism and Middle Eastern Religions once worked side by side and in harmony?

Some argue where was Jesus for 18 years un accounted for in the bible. Some argue that he was at the seat of buddhist masters.

The most interesting thing about my studies of magickal traditions and the most interesting thing about magick itself to me is how ALL magickal traditions share many of the exact same correspondences and praxis throughout all history and all cultures, including the magickal aspects albeit maybe auxillary aspects of tantra, hindu and Buddhist, this is in fact really the gist of my interest in these studies, so I see no fundamental disagreement.My contention wasn't with solomonic magick or ceremonial magick in general or the effectiveness of such systems but I think Crowley was a messed up person and messed up a lot of other people as well, while also having an extensive knowledge of systems and being a natural at such things, many people think ceremonial magick is simply too complicated and prefer simpler more direct systems, and also the dieties involved in such systems are not what you would call safe, nor sane to use, for instance offering your body to horus forever isn't a very good bargain, the rites in the groetia are not to be recommended to anybody with any sanity, especially the rites of the grimorium verum wich in fact require making pacts, this in tantric terms would be something like a life entrustment I believe, these are very black books, black magick works, but it has a price, often in the form of loss of a loved one, these books were written by king solomon, I wouldn't even recommend the rites in the greater key of solomon. Ceremonial magick is where you will find the darkest books, not witchcraft, and a pope actually wrote one of the very worst black magick grimoires, one of the worst practitioners of black magick was a catholic preacher, in fact all this sort of thing comes from the church itself really so it's quite funny, satanism came from the church, the early jews also were up to quite a bit of dark nasty rituals towards the catholics in the early days when they started getting oppression from the church, as they have quite a rich and dark magickal tradition as well, ceremonial magick is all this judeo / christian oriented cosmology and I can assure you it is here you will find the blackest black magick around. I.m.o. people are foolish to enter into relationship with the dieties in these systems, ours are much much safer and ingrained into the system, I mean like worldly dieties who have already been subjugated and are protectors of practitioners of the lineage etc., it's already set up and is relatively safe, ceremonial magicians are experimenters, guinea pigs, it's a foolish game, I'm not saying the game doesn't work, I'm just saying it's a foolish experiment i.m.o.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

But ive done goetia, enochian, and the golden dawn stuff. The prayers from the golden dawn are very good. but thats about it. enochian is from a luciferian revelation. goetia and the key of solomon.. Solomon DIDNT even write!!

Solomon never wrote those dark grimories, probably the Catholic church or dark magicians did, some even think rabbi's did..

but I dont think rabbi's did exactly, more like just dark magicians.. some got wealthy and riches and fame off of the spirits.. but when i did it, as a palo mayombe tata once told me, they take your life energy for a price. and they did.. I was weak for days. although i did get some of what i wanted, I never got a lot of what i needed, or what i wanted.

when i got out of high school, i was doing my best until i got into dark magic. I used to have money, women, and then i got into black magic and i became a bum.. but im glad i left it..

I feel ppl can do black magic, but you have to outsmart the spirits your invoking.. if you are enlightened.. theres no need for it.. but if you reach a stage in enlightenment you already can over power these dark spirits in those traditions.

I didn't know solomon didn't write what is attributed to him, but it makes sense, magick got all jumbled up around the time of the church, catholic priests still maintaining parts of the old religion in private, the church absorbing pagan gods into their pantheon and giving them different names because the people weren't very willing to just give them up all of a sudden, all religions seem to do this, when they " take over " they absorb the old gods and give them different names, trans substantiating things, many of the churchs symbols came from witchcraft as u know, including the cross. Then u have pissed off rabbis who would have had motive to smear the churchs name, the church with motive to smear the jews name, then the church itself trying to smear the name of witchcraft by attributing dark works and rites to it, then you have part of the population dissatisfied with the results they were getting from the churchs new god and who then decided to try the reverse of it, inverting christianity and seeing if that worked for them. I think it's obvious from the grimoires we mentioned that lucifer isn't just the churchs corruption of pan / cernunnos etc., not in my opinion, although I think flauros is horus, but I can't equate lucifer, beelzebuth and astaroth as found in the grimorium verum with any pagan gods. People simply reversing catholic rites, satanism just being inverted christianity so I see it as the same game, 2 sides of the same coin. I think it's interesting that Crowley never was successful in obtaining wealth from his practices, his money ran out and he ended up in a boarding house in the end. I find it all very interesting but magick gets a bit confusing around the time of the church and I don't like working within the framework of judeo / christian ideas, I prefer to look to the times before the churchs appearance. I don't believe in god or satan as the church sees them, although I think there is the god they speak about I think he is just a worldly god, among many, ishvara at best, perhaps just yahweh wich is just a worldly tribal god, I think perhaps god is a gyalpo, as for the biblical so called fallen angels, I think they may be parts of gods legion wich split, or asuras, or maybe just the churchs jumbling up of the legend of the watchers and the nephalim. Who knows

Last edited by Tarpa on Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

but really, does the practices of buddhism give you your dream goals, like being rich ect

if you do enough Dzambhala practices, will you become as rich as warren buffett? lol or bill gates?

i mean one has to have a business model and investment knowledge to the highest degrees.

But see what Crowley didnt know is that a man named Kenneth Grant took on his Thelemic ideas, made them darker, and came to the conclusion that Yoruba and Buddhism, and Many other purer faiths were original, and the way to go.

for instance.. he said, "go with the obeah and the wanga"

many white magicians were very furious with this statement, because the golden dawn was a masonic orginzation with white men and women, that were not racist, maybe some, but especially Crowley, who hated blacks it seems. and many of the members of Ordo Templi Orientis hated other races including black people as well. when they heard African tantras.. which is the obeah and wanga.. they were furious. and Dismissed Mr. Grants claims as false and delusional.

catmoon wrote:It does seem that we are exploring Alistair Crowley here more than anything to do with Buddhism.

But, as long as the discussion is civil, I'm inclined to let it go. I'd rather have it in one place than scattered across the board.

What do you all think about moving this one to the Lounge? Any strong feelings about that?

These themes all overlap - especially the Golden Dawn and the Theosophical Society (Esoteric Section). In terms of the introduction of Buddhism at a time when they were most active, they have a place in the development of our Western understanding (or misunderstanding) of the nature of Buddhism. I also posted earlier of the side to Crowley which saw Buddhist compassion, embodied in his fictitious character Simon Iff, as the most powerful magick against malicious spirits such as 'watchers'.

It would be interesting, I grant you, to discuss the use of oracles and other visionary and clairvoyant divination methods within mainstream Buddhism. As one who has had his hands chopped off for daring to use the word 'shamanic' when writing about such activities, I am sympathetic to moving the thread.

I'm not sure what the spirits have to say about how they interact with Buddhists and non-Buddhists, but I doubt that they are much bothered if the person is a village Jhakri shaman or a Ngakpa Lama. What matters is the nature of the person seeking to communicate with them, and their ability to help the good and protect against the bad.

With regard to 'guides' from realms we cannot see, we must not forget the Buddhas, the Dharmapalas and the 8 Classes. Guru Yoga may be seen as absorbing those functions and creating one focal point.

Blue Garuda wrote:These themes all overlap - especially the Golden Dawn and the Theosophical Society (Esoteric Section). In terms of the introduction of Buddhism at a time when they were most active, they have a place in the development of our Western understanding (or misunderstanding) of the nature of Buddhism. I also posted earlier of the side to Crowley which saw Buddhist compassion, embodied in his fictitious character Simon Iff, as the most powerful magick against malicious spirits such as 'watchers'.

I seem to recall Crowley saying Chinese Magic was the best system but the hardest to understand. Also, that Buddhism was the most complete. Just food for thought.

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

sorry for going so off topic, it probably should go in the lounge, perhaps we could have a forum for Buddhist witches since there are quite a few of us out there really, or a forum for Buddhism and the occult or something. Many people come to explore Buddhism through the occult and every religion on earth has occult aspects, religion itself being occult since it deals with hidden knowledge of the unseen, there's nothing necessarily bad about the term occult or even witchcraft or magick but many have an aversion to it. It's always been my observation that many Buddhists come into vajrayana and maybe would be better suited for non esoteric Buddhism, they sort of wander in and look around and decide they don't understand much about it and would rather not care to know much about quite a lot of it. Certainly there are many types of people and hence many types of practices and teachings, Buddhists in south asian traditions seem to do not much more than go to church once a week and support the monastics, very similar to your average christian. I don't think it can be denied that once vajrayana was embraced by the monastic system and brought into the monastic system that it was watered down to some degree, also we mustn't forget that many tantrikas such as the mahasiddhas were also naths, and who would deny that Padmasambhava was also the Buddhist magician par excellence, also the fact that tantra is a system, not uniquely Buddhist since hindus and bon practice it, it is a system that was adopted to Buddhist soteriological goals just as the hindus adopted it to hindu goals, similar to how the kabalah though identified with the jewish can also be adopted to other faiths, there is christian kabalah etc., they are frameworks and praxis. Many Buddhists don't even accept the validity of mahayana as Buddhist let alone vajrayana so this just goes to show there are many types of people and many levels of understanding, the best system being what works for an individual person and what they will actually enjoy practicing. I think that vajrayana is misunderstood to a great degree by westerners because it isn't explained so much in occult or magickal terms but is sort of whitewashed and everything is simply covered in syrupy mahayana principles, thats' fine since that's its soteriological direction but leaves something to be desired as far as explaining the hows and whys of the system in depth, understanding it from the point of view of a magickal system and terminology helped me understand the ritual aspects of vajrayana more than any other way, books such as foundations of tibetan mysticism by lama anagarika govinda, stephan beyers book on the cult of tara etc. and from reading many doctoral dissertations and thesis from the western academic side on it wich explore the ritual and magickal aspects of it, and I still think that people with some experience in western occult systems will have an easier time of understanding a great bulk about it than those who don't come from such a background, I don't know how many times I've been at an empowerment when the person sitting next to me has asked me " so.....what's this all about then ? " even in HYT and dharmapala empowerments, many people seem to just wander into vajrayana and look around and are like hhhhmmmm what have I gotten myself into, no idea but I'm sure it's all good since it's Buddhist and Buddhas that fat happy little fellow, yes it's all good but it goes deeper than many are comfortable going regarding some aspects, and that's cool, that's alright, but please don't hate on the ones who are in familiar comfortable territory in these waters, even Buddhists have their ritual specialists, and really who else is going to appreciate and possibly preserve the part of tantric tradition that most Buddhists are willing to just disregard, discard, and forget. Exploring Buddhism through this angle is a valid one and in fact leads many people to it.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

That last post of Blue Garuda's has completely turned my view around. I will regard this thread as historical look at early Western Buddhism. The entrance of Buddhism into the modern west was passing strange, and may bear looking at. I may not see the relevance to current practice, but happily that need not be an issue.