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I have been following the RockSchool Grades (http://www.rockschool.co.uk) but my progress has been slow due to the fact that I have not had a teacher.

I returned to my Classical Piano teacher last night (I'm not a classical fan) and the first thing she wants me to change are my scale fingerings. I'm not opposed to this but she's only knows Major and Minor. All the inbetween scales are completely foreign to her.

At first I was stunned but I've grown to accept this now.

My problem is that I need scale fingerings for the Dorian -> Locrian scales that fit with her major/minor fingerings.

Her method:-----------For the sharp keys, the 4th of the Left Hand always hits F#. The right hand always starts with the thumb and the 4th finger hits the new # note. (e.g. F# for the G major scale, C# for D major scale, etc)

Rockschool follow the standard ABRSM fingerings. i.e. Most scales start with the 5th finger on the LH, and the thumb on the RH. There are many exceptions, e.g. a scale starting with Bb would not start with the 5th finger on your LH.

Apologies for this long mail. I would greatly appreciate thoughts on how I can continue using her scale fingerings while still being able to practice all scales in major harmony.

Ionian:1,2,3,4,5,6,7 C,D,E,F,G,A,B(Ionian is the natural scale on which you are playing ex. The scale of C above)

Dorian:1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7 C,D,bE,F,G,A,bB(Dorian is a very popular in jazz improvisation due to it's mystirious minor quality. Usually the same as the scale one note below it. Ex.The dorian of C is the same as Iolian bB or the Dorian of G is the same as Iolian F)

Phrygian:1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 C,bD,bE,F,G,bA,bB(Phrygian is used to give a spanish of moorish color to the music. Usually the same scale as it's b6 relative. Ex. The phrygian of C is the same as the Iolian of bA or The Phrygian of E is Ionian of C)

Lydian:1,2,3,#4,5,6,7 C,D,E,#F,G,A,B(Lydian is also commonly used in jazz due to it's constant/uncontant color giving varaity in that piece almost never used in rock. Usually the same as the 5th. Ex.The lydian of C is the same as the Ionian of G or the Lydian of F is the same as the Ionian of C

Mixolydian:1,2,3,4,5,6,b7 C,D,E,F,G,A,bB(The same as a 7th chord without alteration. Usually the same as it's 4th relative. Ex. The mixolydian of C is the same the Ionian of F or The mixolydian of G is the same as the Ionian of C)

Aeolian:1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 C,D,bE,F,G,bA,bB(Aeolian is the same as the natual minor scale. Usually the same scale as the b3rd or #4th relative. Ex. The Aeonian of C is the Ionian of bEor the Aeonian of A is the Ionian of C)

Locrian:1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7 C,bD,bE,F,bG,bA,bB(As a mode, it imparts a sort of dreamlike state much as the whole tone scale played in a lazy legato. Not the best for lengthy improvisation unless as a launching point into a freer type playing. Usually it's the same as the Ionian half-note above. Ex. The Locrian of C is the Ionian of #C or the Locrian of B is the Ionian of C)

yoz, I'm not sure you answered Rob's question, but it sure filled in some gaps in MY knowledge of the other scales.

A couple of questions, with apologies to Rob.

First, I haven't "checked" all the scales to see which ones aren't "usually the same as ... ", but maybe you could give an example to point out where the rule fails.

Second, I've always assumed the names given to the modes were just names of Greek cities (or at least Greek concepts ), and I'm pretty sure that's correct. Do you know if there is a logical "link" between the city and the scale type, or did they just grab seven names at random?

And who was "they", and when did they assign these names?

Long shot here, I suppose, but I'm just curious if the geographic location of these cities formed any kind of cryptic pattern that might be related to the scales. Again, I've never done the "MapQuest" thing to investigate this, cause it seems pretty far-fetched, but your familiarity with the scales has made you vulnerable to my most manic musings.

Pardon the misinterpretation Rob. Could you amplify a little more? To answer RKVS1 questions(1) I put "usually" because there could be different variations such as; pentatonic, chromatic, Spanish 8 tone...) also modes were created more than 1,000 years before the infamous major/minor scale. Modes were discovered by the early church of the 50AD making it obsolete by 1675, but then was revived by George Russell and now used in jazz.

(2) You must be familiar with the "Ethos of music" Established by Plato and Aristotle. The theory was based on a study on how music affects a person. Lamentably, this study was lost during the years. However, Manlius Boethius roughly translated it to Latin around 450 AD. The study on mixolydian and other modes were distorted during translation. I speculate that these studies were inspired by the general people in those cities and how there typical music affected there society. There's a dozy for you, try investigating cultural patterns and there typical music and what colors they play in...

Now, my new teacher is suggesting that I always keep the 4th finger of the LH on F# (for Sharp Keys only). I'll discover her Flat keys rule next week.

C major5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1

G Major3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3

D major2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2

A major 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2

etc.

My question is .. what about fingering for Dorian, Phryg etc? I had a go last night, and it dawned on my that with her above fingerings, for the sharp keys, the same fingers will always be falling on the same note, regardless of the scale.

e.g. G Major 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3

A Dorian2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2

B Phrygian1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1

I assume this same approach will work for all scales harmonised off the major scales (in the sharp keys).

I hope I haven't lost you all as this is a very important step for me. If I land myself in a very bad habit due to a badly chosen starting point, it will inhibit by ability to explore improv.

Hi,Maybe I can add some clarity here for Rob, after all, he has a very cool name.First, you can't use the same fingerings on every mode in every key-scales and hands don't work that way.Second, two simple rules for fingering: 1) try and put your thumb on white keys and 2) play in groups of three and four fingers. Most scales can be played with a simple 123 1234 fingering or 1234 123 fingering. If it gets really tricky, you can use 1212 for a portion and 123 123 123 works well also. When the scale starts on a black key, just cross over one or two fingers over your thumb and work towards the thumb on a white key.Third, classical teachers and jazz teachers can have widely different ideas about fingerings, so if you are studying both kinds of music, you may have a lot of variance in what the teachers tell you.It is great that you are working with a teacher-you will learn a lot faster that way.

Thank you for that concise explanation. These modes then, are just the seven major scales which happen to contain the tonic.

The notion occurs to me, as somebody completely primitive in these things, that it would therefore be possible to achieve the same sounds by thinking of yourself playing in two keys at once at any given moment and approach the whole thing from that simpler point of view. Or would this not be a good idea ?

_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

Thanks again for your replies. I was hoping for a hard and fast rule for LH fingerings for all scales but I'm beginning to see that I will have to derive my own fingerings. Maybe the fingerings for these scales will become apparent as I practice.

It's a shame that my classical teacher has no interest in jazz because we will never see eye to eye. I view her approach as only 50% of what is possible on the piano. Reading and Technique are one part if the puzzle. Deep knowledge of harmony and improv skills are another part. She views me as unfocussed and something to be brought back into line.

Thanks again for all your replies ... We'll see what the next few months bring ... !!

I was trying these out last night. As an aid to instant recall, I notice that the Phrygian, i.e. the scale four semitones below the tonic, itself comprises the tonics of the seven modes regarded as scales. So if you know all your major scales you could instantly recall their modes as well, by reference to the Phrygian, with no new memorising - probably well known, I expect, like most things I think of !

_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

If you're playing classical, then the note the Phrygian scale starts on IS the tonic.

I wouldn't worry too much about the fingering for a particular mode (they're diatonic), just so long as you know the major key you're operating in and its fingering.

The reason I say this is that if you start practicing toward this (starting a phrase on the root), down the road you're going to work insanely hard at eliminating 'root-bias' from your playing. It will be much easiler trying to avoid the tonic.

I should mention that the reason it is important to know these modes is for when you really get super-good at improvisational jazz.

Someone is going to be playing Phrygian (diatonic in a major key) over a III chord and someone else might want to play Dorian... or

Someone might try playing Aeolian (diatonic) over a VI chord and someone else might want to play Dorian...etc.

Sometimes using the diatonic mode is easiest and what a beginning improvisor tends to play, but it's not always the right thing to do.

I guess what I am saying is that you should make these terms and concepts of modes known for communication purposes.

When you practice them the point should be to identify their differences. Mostly I am talking about Dorian, Phrygian, and Aeolian, as these are the ones that cause the most contention on a minor seventh chord. You want to play:

Big deal you say, it's just a bunch of alternating dorian and mixolydian. Well the difference is the bolded scales are now C based (not Bb). This temporary, and slight deviation from the local key (Bb) gives this section some impetus (and it's more difficult to do).

... as if you're not already convinced of the alternating dorian mixolydian relationship...

The first mixolydian is also C-based.

For some of you I may have taken this a bit far having substituted a G7 (mixolydian) chord for a Gm7 (Aeolian). The difference where the chord tones are concerned is the B versus Bb. Okay, I will give you back your Bb, but I am keeping my B too:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hgiles:Well the difference is the bolded scales are now C based (not Bb). This temporary, and slight deviation from the local key (Bb) gives this section some impetus (and it's more difficult to do).

Just out of curiosity, what went into the choice of C for those bars?

Thanks for all the info, hgiles. It's largely above my head, but I need the challenge, and like to look ahead (though it's very intimidating ).

Hi,I'm not scared by the posts, but definitely confused. I am really glad my theory teacher didn't make it so complex, or I would have quit jazz.I am currently writing a new series of books to explain jazz in new ways and give MTAC teachers, kids, and adult beginner's some fun music to play that will incorporate the best of theory I know. I will let you guys know when the first book is ready and then we can talk about it, eh?I often play nothing other than a Bb major scale for the first bar of rhythm changes, and so did Miles Davis on his recording of "Oleo" with Sonny Rollins. It really comes down to playing basic melody well, just like in classical music-and sounding like you are part of the idiom. By the way, if you want to check out how I use scales over rhythm changes, I have an entire book of jazz piano etudes for that, and you can hear the C major one as well on your computer. The page is at http://planetmullins.com/books/etudes.htm and you can see the etude in print and look at the chords, notes, and figure out the scales I am using compositionally.You can also hear one of my students playing that etude and improvising on the rhythm changes by going to http://planetmullins.com/showcase/showcase/randy.htm and open his mp3 file of the C Major Etude.

Originally posted by Rob Mullins:I often play nothing other than a Bb major scale for the first bar of rhythm changes, and so did Miles Davis on his recording of "Oleo" with Sonny Rollins. [/b]

If the version of Rhythm changes that you are playing only has Bb Major for the first bar, then you should[/b] be in Bb Major scale for the first two bars.

|Bb |Cm7 F7|Dm7 G7|Cm7 F7|

As you probably know there are more variations of Rhythm changes than I can count.

Remember though that the scale that I am suggesting for beats three and four only differ from the Bb scale by a few notes. So depending on the phrase you're playing you could be playing in both scales:

Notes that are bolded are different than the other scale and if you play them in your phrase, you define the scale. If you play phrases using the non-bolded notes, then your phrase does not definitively define the tonality and you can get by without committing to a scale.

I have done it too -- played Bb major 7 for the entire A section (8 bars)[/b]. It can work, but it's not what I strive to do.

Miles wasn't a vertical player, but rather melodic and lyrical as you suggest. Listen to Coltrane and Bird and you will hear something markedly different. Coltrane used altered scale on beats 3 and 4, Bird used the hw diminished scale. These guys were more vertical players.

Sorry guys, I tend to get verbose. Looking back at it all now it looks like a lot and I have explained it in many different ways and from many different perspectives in hopes that one of them might be useful.

Haywood,You are right, there are a lot of ways to look at this stuff. I try to keep it pretty simple in the forums, but certainly its not that way when I am actually playing.One of my favorite things to do changes-wise is to start on the E7 on rhythm changes in bar 5 and go around the circle from the E7 back to home base at Bb with at II IV I..|Bb |Cm7 F7|Dm7 G7|Cm7 F7|E7|A7|D7 G7|Cm7 F7|

Nice to see you talking about horizontal and vertical approaches as well. I enjoy transposing horizontal melodies to other key centers over changes for effect which is something Coltrane did a lot.I listened to "Chasin' The Trane" yesterday after reading this thread, and I was amazed at how the evolution of melody progressed just with him personally. Amazing stuff.

Sonny was improvising over 'rhythm changes' and at the beginning of every A section he kept glancing over at the rhythm section in hopes to cue them into what he was doing. After about 3 choruses he finally got upset and just stopped playing in the middle of the solo and yelled at them saying "Just listen for a second would ya?"

He changed the first four bars and was improvising over:

Bb B7|E7 A7|D7 G7|C7 F7|

Same principle that you illustrated in the second four bars of the A section -- using the cycle (circle of fifths) of dominant seventh chords.

Cool man!I will tell my bass player and see if we can sneak that prog by the horn players at the gig next week. I sat down with those changes you typed for the Stitt thing just now and came up with something cool:Bb B7|E7 Ab7|G7 Gb7|F7 B7|Then Emaj7+11 for the next four bars lol.I am lucky my bass player is so good, he hears everything I do and if he can't figure it out, he'll come over during the break and ask me what the heck I was doing. We started sticking those open lydian chords in the blues and rhythm changes for varieties sake recently and are having a ball but getting a lot of weird looks from the horn players.

Just want to say that I've been lurking very attentively in the background here and I have genuinly picked up some new info here.

Thanks for keeping this conversation in the forum rather than taking it to private mail.

And to you, Haywood, many thanks for jumping in in the first place. Scale subsitution is way ahead of me, but at least now I understand why I've been practicing my major scale modes. Prior to this week, I couldn't really see why I needed to view the modes as individual scales instead of inversions of the same major scale.

I think that for ANY mode you will use the fingering for the related major (Ionian) scale. [/b]

C-Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian -- all use the fingering for the C Major scale.

I don't see why it wouldn't work for an exercise and acquainting yourself with the sound of the different modes. However, from an improvisation perspective, you can throw all these fingering rules out the window, because you're going to be playing broken phrases and a variety of intervals (not always consecutive seconds) anyway.

Alright guys, I need to know. At what age, did you (hgiles and Rob Mullins in particular) begin to incorporate modal playing into your lexicon.

I ask because I took lessons as a child and learned to read music but was taught no theory. I took up bass guitar to join a band but needed to know little more than I, IV, V. I've restarted lessons on bass a few times over the last couple of years to learn how to read charts and improvise and it just doesn't stick.

Is it too late to try and cram this all into my brain (I'm almost 40!)? Or do I just need to practice more?

Really, I think age has nothing to do with it. I like to take the mystery out of things and make them simple whenever I can, so I will do so for you here on your question about modes.

The recent death of the Catholic Pope was a Modal event, mostly being in Aeolian mode from what I could surmise while at my piano watching the musical presentations put on at the Vatican. Some of the music performed was in Ionian, key of Bb major which is the relative major key to G minor Aeolian which dominated in the part of the presentations I had time to watch. Following the music performed by Vatican singers and musicians is a great way to start understanding what modes sound like for the following reasons: 1) there are a lot of solo parts sung by the priests where there is choir or keyboard instrument, so you can pick out the notes easier and 2) much of what they sing is sung slowly and deliberately making it much easier to pick out on the piano or your bass. Now here is how you will gain your understanding of how modes work in relation to a bass note: get some recorded music similiar to what the Vatican guys did on tv where the songs are slow tempo, and figure out whether the song you are going to work on is in major (Ionian) or minor (Aeolian). Play the bass note of the key of the music while the singer is singing their song and listen to how their notes sound in relation to the root you are holding down on the bass. If possible, pick music that is transcribed and for which the score is available so that you can see what the written down part looks like to make it easier on yourself. Work with several pieces in both major and minor keys so that you really get the sound sunk into your brain of the tonic you are playing that indicates the root of the music. This is the simplest way for you personally since bass is your main instrument.

The use of modes in jazz and other forms of music as you know is widespread, and great jazz musicians freely go from mode to mode without thinking, many of them don't think in those terms at all but just play and let other people figure it out (McCoy Tyner told me that a few years ago at a gig we did in New York). For me personally, I just hunted and pecked out things that sounded cool on the piano first, because that is what I was excited about-I didn't think about the theory part of it until later. For someone at a beginning ear training level jazz goes by too fast to figure it out though.

The second thing I would recommend is piano lessons with a good teacher in your area. Piano is such a fantastic tool because you can play bass on it, chords on it, melodies on it, and any combination of the three. You would gain a lot if you study keyboard for awhile so that you can play the modes in one hand while holding down a bass note (this is called a pedal tone) underneath the playing of the modes in the right hand.