I was specifically referring to the use of ""you and your ilk" while having a discussion.

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/ilk
When you say "you and your ilk," you mean "you and everyone just like you." And that's not usually meant in a nice way. You probably wouldn't talk about Nelson Mandela and his ilk — ilk sounds negative. Usually, you're talking about a criminal and his ilk, or a crooked politician and his ilk. If someone is talking about your ilk, it might be time to get new friends or change your ways.

If this is the most insulting news Kate has heard, she has lived a very sheltered life.

Now.. finally we are back on topic... It was a slow news day for her, so once she heard this (even though it was incorrect info) she had to make a big deal out of it to re-route traffic to her.. she probably keeps a tab on search trends and what not, and this was probably the idea of one of her publicists. IMO anyway.

Now.. finally we are back on topic... It was a slow news day for her, so once she heard this (even though it was incorrect info) she had to make a big deal out of it to re-route traffic to her.. she probably keeps a tab on search trends and what not, and this was probably the idea of one of her publicists. IMO anyway.

Search Trends = $$$$$ for them and their ilk :)

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If this is the most insulting news Kate has heard, she has lived a very sheltered life.

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This is from the DB who claims he would carry on a cell phone conversation in the middle of a fairway when its his turn to hit and people are waiting for him as long as he's within his posted POP. Major DB.

This is called "shooting the messenger". Note most of those who saw no problem with a discriminatory policy have attacked Kate Upton's success, looks, star quality, etc... or resorted to personal insults. I think that is a pretty good indication of who is correct in this argument.

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"Men on Saturday twice a month, women on Saturday twice a month." That would be fair if your NOT taking the facts into consideration. If the (golfing) membership is five to one male that arraignment would give each male member one fifth of the available tee times than would be given to the women. A more fair policy would be to give the men five hours on Saturday and the women one hour on Saturday. Not only would that also elicit the same cries of discrimination from you and your ilk but it would also probably piss off the women of this particular club. Good job.

Or, instead of twisting yourself into these insane logical knots, you could just let people play whenever they want regardless of gender.

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Sure it is. the fact that there may be a logical, practical reason for the policy that all have agreed upon (including the female membership) doesn't seem to matter to some tells me that their argument is that political correctness trumps all possibilities. I think it's funny that it has actually been revealed in this thread that there is in fact NO official policy barring women on Saturday but there is one barring men on Tuesday. Where's the outrage?

I'm still waiting for the "logical, practical reason". Girls are slow? Please tell me what this reason is beyond "the members want it this way", because that isn't a reason.

Look, I get it. You don't want to play with women for whatever reason. But come out and say it. Don't tell me being able to play on Tuesday is "the same" as being able to play on Saturday. And don't tell me "its the will of the members, man" because thats nonsense. It may be the will of the members, but it wouldn't be OK to discriminate on race and it isn't OK on gender.

This is called "shooting the messenger". Note most of those who saw no problem with a discriminatory policy have attacked Kate Upton's success, looks, star quality, etc... or resorted to personal insults. I think that is a pretty good indication of who is correct in this argument.

Well, not exactly my friend.. What I mentioned is probably true even though I can't prove it.. I mean remember the messenger is wrong here for sure since she is complaining against a specific club, and that turned out to be untrue..

So, I can make fun of her since she is a public figure and frankly deserves it for spreading incorrect information and I have basically given how I think it all went down.. Now in terms of the general issue of tee times and all that please go back and look at my posts and you will find we agree.

This is called "shooting the messenger". Note most of those who saw no problem with a discriminatory policy have attacked Kate Upton's success, looks, star quality, etc... or resorted to personal insults. I think that is a pretty good indication of who is correct in this argument.

I'm still waiting for the "logical, practical reason". Girls are slow? Please tell me what this reason is beyond "the members want it this way", because that isn't a reason.

Where's the discrimination?

If you're under 50, you can't play on the Champions Tour. Is that also discrimination? You also can't play the LPGA Tour if you're Tiger Woods and claim to have broken Jack's record of 18 majors. Also discrimination?

The club sets aside tee times for groups to have their leagues, no? I see nothing wrong with that. Men can't play during women's league times, and women can't play during men's league times. Isn't that the deal? Maybe it's not — I've not paid much attention to this discussion because I don't really care about it — but I thought that was.

A public course nearby does the same… members can reserve tee times to 9am, then anyone can. Is that also discrimination?

At the local restaurant, the kid's meal is only available to those 10 and under. Also discrimination? :P

Well, not exactly my friend.. What I mentioned is probably true even though I can't prove it.. I mean remember the messenger is wrong here for sure since she is complaining against a specific club, and that turned out to be untrue..

So, I can make fun of her since she is a public figure and frankly deserves it for spreading incorrect information and I have basically given how I think it all went down.. Now in terms of the general issue of tee times and all that please go back and look at my posts and you will find we agree.

But you are remembering how "it all went down" incorrectly. May I point out that all Kate Upton did was write a tweet that nobody here saw until it was responded to, AND more importantly, compiled into a "story" by somebody at golfchannel.com or golfdigest.com.

And then it was only brought to our attention because Mike thought we'd be interested in reading about it. (He was clearly right)

And even then, the majority of the "big deal" being made is all on our side of the table (referring to TST, using an Office Space reference ;)) because we're the only ones talking about it.

To top it off, we aren't even talking about her or LACC, we're talking about this because I and @newtogolf pointed out that there are actually clubs out there that do have the policy Kate Upton thought that LACC had.

I'm pretty sure it's a safe bet that she stopped caring about it about 10 seconds after she read the response from the woman who told her she had her info wrong. If you want to be mad at somebody for "making a big deal" out of it, then be mad at the guy who decided to write a story about a mistake that somebody made that was already rectified before he even found out about it.

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Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Please tell me what this reason is beyond "the members want it this way", because that isn't a reason.

It may be the will of the members, but it wouldn't be OK to discriminate on race and it isn't OK on gender.

Why can't these be the reasons? If it's a private club, I don't see how they shouldn't be allowed to make any rules they want. I mean, I think there are clubs out there that still don't even allow women to be members at all. The PGA Tour is going to avoid places like that, and I'm not going to be joining a club like that ever, but beyond that, why should I care? It's their stupid club, it's their stupid rules, let them have at it.

Otherwise, I think I should start bitching because those evil hags over at the Red Hat Society won't let me join them!!!!!!!

If you're under 50, you can't play on the Champions Tour. Is that also discrimination? You also can't play the LPGA Tour if you're Tiger Woods and claim to have broken Jack's record of 18 majors. Also discrimination?

The club sets aside tee times for groups to have their leagues, no? I see nothing wrong with that. Men can't play during women's league times, and women can't play during men's league times. Isn't that the deal? Maybe it's not — I've not paid much attention to this discussion because I don't really care about it — but I thought that was.

A public course nearby does the same… members can reserve tee times to 9am, then anyone can. Is that also discrimination?

At the local restaurant, the kid's meal is only available to those 10 and under. Also discrimination? :P

You're missing the point.

Of course, if there is a men's league, and a women's league, they need set tee times. And if you're going to have gender-specific, or age-specific competitions, then in the strict sense of the word the entry criteria discriminates between potential competitors, but on rational grounds. The competitoon is to determine who is the best 50+ year-old, or the best woman, or whatever.

That's not what most of us are talking about. Let's say I'm a woman who works during the week and can play only at weekends. And I play off, say, 3: which makes me a better, and in all probability faster, golfer than 95% of the male members of my club. But I'm told I can't play on a Saturday simply because I'm a woman? when ageing male golfers who can't hit a fairway are entiled to bumble round and take five hours?

We all accept that private clubs are entitled to make their own rules. But really, there is no reason other than prejudice to exclude people from access to the course (when there isn't a competition going on) just because of their gender, or colour, or height, or whatever. What's the matter with simply treating people as individuals, on their merits, rather than as memebrs of some group they have no choice about belonging to?

Let's say I'm a woman who works during the week and can play only at weekends. And I play off, say, 3: which makes me a better, and in all probability faster, golfer than 95% of the male members of my club. But I'm told I can't play on a Saturday simply because I'm a woman? when ageing male golfers who can't hit a fairway are entiled to bumble round and take five hours?

Then don't join that club!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you ever gone into a steak house and then ordered steak and then complained after it arrived that it wasn't a vegetarian meal?? Because that's what this argument sounds like to me.

Someday a woman that belongs to a club will see this thread and laugh. The guys that think women want to get out and play first thing Sat AM are nuts. Most just aren't that into golf. Look at the range at any course you go to public or private. How many women do you seen compared to men? Not many right.

Have you ever gone into a steak house and then ordered steak and then complained after it arrived that it wasn't a vegetarian meal?? Because that's what this argument sounds like to me.

Yes, of course don't join that club. But options may be limited. And in any event, we aren't arguing about a specific club, are we? We're discussing what policies would be desirable, not just in terms of social progress but also for the good of the game. In my view, more clubs should go out of their way to attract women into the sport.

This is called "shooting the messenger". Note most of those who saw no problem with a discriminatory policy have attacked Kate Upton's success, looks, star quality, etc... or resorted to personal insults. I think that is a pretty good indication of who is correct in this argument.

What I was getting at is there are things in the world much more insulting than what tee times are available to whom at a very exclusive golf club. Her tweet had a touch more hyperbole than it needed to have. That she posts such a statement without checking its accuracy is beside my original point, but since you brought it up, when she's wrong and overstates her case, whom do you want us to shoot?

To the greater point of discrimination, her accusation was not about golf clubs in general, but about one specific club, and it was wrong. Commenting on that is not a personal attack. It is expecting a high-profile and somewhat influential celebrity to be more thoughtful when making public comments. You know, to take personal responsibility.

Yes, of course don't join that club. But options may be limited. And in any event, we aren't arguing about a specific club, are we? We're discussing what policies would be desirable, not just in terms of social progress but also for the good of the game. In my view, more clubs should go out of their way to attract women into the sport.

This can't be the argument because I doubt there is a single person in this thread that would disagree with that. (Well, there might be a couple ... but the vast majority would agree with you, I'm sure)

Most of us arguing for the club are just saying we think it's OK that they be allowed to do that ... not that we think they should. I think it's dumb.

Someday a woman that belongs to a club will see this thread and laugh. The guys that think women want to get out and play first thing Sat AM are nuts. Most just aren't that into golf. Look at the range at any course you go to public or private. How many women do you seen compared to men? Not many right.

I find it difficult to believe that you don't get this. What "most women" want to do isn't relevant. "Most women" don't want to be astrophysicists. Does that mean that those who do should be refused entry? Most men don't want to cook. Should men be prevented from becoming chefs?

Why not simply treat people as individuals, and discriminate between rhem on the basis of what is between their ears rather than what is between their legs? Why should a woman who is keen on golf encounter these sorts of obstacles just becasue the majoroty of women don't share her enthusiasm for the game?