Kystar wrote:Honestly, Ragnar, if you found a dollar (Or equivalent) sitting on the sidewalk, and no one was around to see who dropped it, would you consider it theft to pick it up?

Depends. I may be picking it up to take to the lost property office, but if you just put it in your pocket and went off without "taking reasonable steps to find the rightful owner", then in theory yes.

And if I was in uniform and was seen doing it, I would be sacked and prosecuted.

Kitsune wrote:
So it would be a valid way to see if you have the tendancies, but not an actual judge of Character seems to be the concensus that we're arriving at...
Correct?

Not as a one off, and I feel there are too many variables.

Such as has been shown with Kystar's reaction to the situation of the dollar and mine.

I think it also depends on age group. My Great Granny would never DREAM of finding a one Kroner coin on the floor in a shop, and NOT handing it to the shop keeper.

"Theft by finding" was a "household phrase" with her and my Granny. The same with MOST of their generation.

Crazy Healer Lady wrote: and gave it to a fund to help a little girl with cancer in 100-Mile.

If you look at the first step in my actions, you can label me any number of ways. If you look at the second step, how does that change things?

Depends if you accept the law as a moral arbiter;

§§2 of the Theft act sais; (Carrying on from where my last quote left off)

(2) It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain, or is made for the thief’s own benefit.

In other words according to the law, you have still stolen the money. BUT MORALY, I do not think any one would castigate you for it.

In fact for $20 or so, I think the judge would laugh any prosecution case ouit of court.

So the question now is, "Do you accept the law as a guide to morality, OR should the law be guided by morality"?

The quaetion is not as easy to answer as it sounds.

At one time it was PERFECTLY accepted, morally, to beat the kids for not doing their homework. In fact you would be seen as strange if you did not. THEN came the Children and young persons act 1921, which made that an offence. NOT because it was "immoral", but because in a few cases it was shown that beatings had lead to injuries which meant the child could not take up a productive work position, or "was unable to fulfil a military obligation in time of call up".

NOW of course the C&Y.P. act is seen as a MORAL piece of legistlation. But it did NOT start out so.

Ragnar, you've made me curious about the exact law in PA regarding lost or found money.

Because, like I've said, I've even have a police officer basically tell us that if it's under a certain amount, "finder's keepers". In fact, I remember trying to turn a bit of money in that I found in front of the police station...the lady looked at me, smiled, went in the back, bellowed "Any yinz guys drop a twenty?" got a bunch of "No's", came back out and told me to keep it.

I'm going to have to do some research to see what the law says, specifically, in my area. Considering your laws and my laws might not have the same specific details.

I am talking U.K law. But you have to take reasonanble eteps to find the owner. Ie, an advert in a news paper, or taking it to the police lost and found. After three months, if not claimed, the finder gets to keep it.

Actualy it is the BIGGEST pain in the butt of ANY police work. There is MORE dicipline enquiries, and even sackings, because old Granny Smith remembers after three months that she handed a pound coin to a policeman, because "that's what you do with lost property".

Of course by this time said policeman has forgotten all about this bloody pound, which he shoved in his pocket and forgot to note in his note book, or even worse REMEMBERED to note, but forgot to hand it in, and fill out the hours worth of forms at the end of shift that the MASSIVE sum required.

NOW Old Granny Smith decides, as it is the week before pension, she would quite like this pound, after the waiting period has ended.

She goes into the station, gets out her note pad, where of COURSE she has noted P.C Plodd's shoulder number, and asks about her pound.

No record of it being booked in, theft enquiry follows. P.C Plodd is now Mr Plod, with a criminal record, trying to find a job as security on some building site, and no pension to look foreward to.

If the silly old cow had just put the bloody pound in her pocket, none of this would have happened.

I think you will get the same there, ask ANY Copper who his worst enemy is, and the answer will not be "Drug dealers", or "criminal gangs", but "THE PUBLIC".

I grew up in Ohio....not too far from Kystar's Pennsylvania home.
Here we are taught that possession is 9/10 of the law. The only time you are required to find the rightful owner is if there is information to go on. Say someone drops their wallet, you are responsible to give their money back to them. However, if there is no possible way to return the money to the rightful owner….ie: dropped money then, it is your gain.
My mother and grandmother, both Christians, would say that God had intended me to find that money. Not that I necessarily believe that some deity had intended me to have this money…..but, they do have a point.
Of the times I have found just money lying on the ground somewhere (mostly on the street) I have been in severe need of money. There was on time I found money walking out of a grocery store to cash a pay check that was going completely to bills. There was no way I could find an owner since it was just bundled cash with a rubber band. I kept it knowing that if I turned it into some sort of lost and found that the employee would just pocket the money. The next two weeks I had money to buy food when I did not have any money.
This might make me sound evil but, I feel no guilt for doing this. Money appeared when I needed it. If there was some way that I could return it to the owner then I would have.

1 - if you SEE someone drop it, give it back. Even if you have to stop them down the street.

2 - if it's in a store, try to turn it in to the manager b/c it might be a "bust"...either for employees or customers. "Planted" money is annoying.

3 - if you're at work, it goes to your boss. Period. (Unless it falls under rule 1). If your boss hands it back to you with a "keep it" at least you did your CYA.

4 - if it's more than say $30-40, turn it into the cops.

5 - if there's a few bills and they look too clean, check the sequence. If they're in ORDER, turn it over to the cops with location of where you found it and time of day. (Banks give out bundles during robberies that are noted - in sequence. You DON'T want to be trying to spend one of those bills!)

6 - If rules 1-5 don't apply, you win.

Though, I'd have to agree with you, Ragnar, on the whole "A cop's worst enemy is the Public". Too many times people either meddle where they don't need to, or ignore what should be a big red flag.

What irks me was when someone lies to get lost money. I don't do it...and I try to make it right when someone around me tries it.

I had a classmate in college see a girl pick up a bill, that I know DARN well wasn't his b/c he had come straight from his car to class, and rushed over to get it off of her, claiming it was his...that he dropped getting a pop before class, and he was SO glad it was still there b/c it was his food money for the day. I had to laugh b/c she looked at him crooked and asked what bill it was. He answered "Ten." She smiled, rolled the bill up and said "WRONG," and walked away. Turns out, I watched her...it was a twenty that a teacher had dropped, and she took it back to them. The guy was so happy he bought her a fountain drink.

I think I nearly fell over laughing at his expression...this WTF just happened here look!

According to this board I'm downright evil! I've been working, seen a drunk idiot say that he lost a $20, find it later and keep it. If it's less than twenty bucks, I don't even generally stop to think about it. Their carelessness equals my gain... Same as if I lost twenty bucks, it would mean someone else's gain.

Mind you, I've also called every person with the last name Smyth in our phone book trying to find the Dianne Smyth who forgot her debit card when she shopped at our store that we had it, not even knowing who it was since I found the card after my shift (ended up, I felt pretty good about myself, it was little girl who was terrified that she'd forgotten it somewhere, period).

I've worked for the police, and I still have little to no respect for most laws... For me, Morality (in particular, mine and no one else's) drives me... If the law co-incides with what I think is right, then we're good, if not, then I think long and hard about just how much trouble I could be in if I don't follow it. I've been told that I'm much too freedom-oriented to live by the laws, simply because they're the law... I truly believe that when the laws start standing in the way of my freedom (or someone else's), that's a reason to stand up and do something to stop it.

I'm probally the police's worst nightmare... It's a good thing I'm a reasonably good person morally or I'd be in a lot more trouble right now.

Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling

I don't want to be tested or hypnotised, I have a love of fire that could get me in big trouble if the police new that I classify most things I see as tinder, kindling, accelerent, or fuel. Never act on it though.

On the money thing, I have always believed unless you see the person drop cash, or it is in a store, it is yours. More than 40$ I would turn in to the cops (they get it back to you eventually). Wallets and cash I always hunt the person down . Though once I found a cell phone and I called "home" and the girl ont he other end asked who the hell I was and why I was using her "man's" phone. Then asked me to drive 20miles out of town to drop it off. I said I will mail it to you, or you can come pick it up.

People are funny

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

Willow wrote:I don't want to be tested or hypnotised, I have a love of fire that could get me in big trouble if the police new that I classify most things I see as tinder, kindling, accelerent, or fuel.

Oh, I can SO relate to that!

LOL! I had a friend who was such a pyro that she started a "Church of Char" in a LARP group that we were part of. Granted, it had only two members, me and her, but it was funny that people after the one event started recognizing our belt sash, and asking us to come rescue their dying campfire.

Then again, that might have something to do with them watching us start a bonfire in the rain without chemical assistance!

There is skill involved in this that people don't understand, like building a small cook fire is way harder than making a bonfire, and how to make an almost smokless fire versus a very smoky one that keeps bugs away.

Nice to know there are people out there who appreciate my talents.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

"People with scruples are the people who can afford to have scruples."

However honest we may wish to view ourselves, when put in desperate situations we will do what needs to be done to get by.

What is a desperate situation? It would be different for everyone. From my personal perspective I would do whatever I had to for my children. If I had no money, no food and needed to take care of my children, I would mug grandma in the train station if I had to.

Looking from that perspective, hypnotism could be used to influence people to do things they might otherwise not do;for example, if the hypnotist could make them believe they were in danger.

There is skill involved in this that people don't understand, like building a small cook fire is way harder than making a bonfire, and how to make an almost smokless fire versus a very smoky one that keeps bugs away.

Nice to know there are people out there who appreciate my talents.

Oh, definitely!

See, we were part of a Medevial/Fantasy Live Action Role-Play...originally based on Lord of the Rings...anyways...people didn't realize the differences in fires and stuff. Thought a fire was a fire was a fire.

I had one group tell me to just start the fire with glue..contact cement, actually, what we built our weapons with. I looked at them and said..."are you COOKING over this fire?" When they said, yeah, I told them that they needed to think then, b/c what they suggested was the quickest way I knew of to get chemical food poisoning!

*Rolls Eyes* Silly people. They told me I put the wrong stuff on my fire once b/c I had some slightly sweet smokey fire...I said "No, that's sage, sweetgrass and oregano...keep the bugs away. Better than using DEET."