Looting vs. Survival

But to "get people to safety" means first suppressing the fire from the armed gangs that are SHOOTING at rescue workers.

I completly agree. We posted replies at the same time so you may not have read my last one.

They need to get people out but can't. The way these peole fire off the Guns its like they have never seen one before. Personally if I knew
civilians are running around with guns and shooting There is no way I am going anywhere to help people. It is like being in Iraq, How the hell are
they supposed to know who has a gun and who doesn't. If they were to give me the green light to go hunting...well then those people stuck in the
school will be ok. If someone were to look at me funny i would not hesitate to shoot. IF they point ANYTHING at me besides their finger I would
shoot. There is just no way to tell if someone has a gun until it is to late. Yeah my way would suck but it is the people who have guns that are
hurting the rescue efforts. That is why like I said earlier I would go on an ass kicking campaign with other people who want to get out of that
place.

Originally posted by Boondock78
you have to understand that not everyone could leave. some of these people have no transportation, no money, they are not able to travel.

You can walk outta the sunken bowl that is topographical new orleans easily in five days.

where are they gonna go?

Out of the giant, already sinking city and away from the massive, wildly destructive hurricane the size of fance.

they took up shelter in their homes and rode out the storm. now they need to survive.

Everyone is being forced out of the city now, the city itself is being evacuated.

looting diapers, food, water, drink, and even arms i can understand.

Guns? No. that is why they've had to suspend rescue operations, to stop the mobs looting gun stores and armories. They have
stopped resucing people from the natural disaster to try to fight the human rampage. These people arenot starving and dying and in need of
supplies, its been a few days, and the government is providing shelter, its not like the hurrican picked up the city and transplanted it to Oz.
And they have to fight to survive or something. The city is being evacuated, fema shelters have been set up, looting is illegal and completely
unecessary, and they shouldn't be in teh goddamned city anyway, let alone not have built up a stock of absolute necessities.

The kind that can't afford to leave

Everyone can afford to leave. Everyone can walk, get on public buses, hitch a ride, anything. I can understand taking food to survive, but if
my situation is that bad then I want the cops to pick me up and bring me to a shelter or holding facility, not be running around a sewage flooded city
having to decide whether or not to rush into a gun shop to steal a shot gun to protect myself from roving bands of looters. I'm not Snake
Plissken.

Unlike the ordinary people who were just made homeless, killed, bankrupted, and left to fend for themselves in the eye of the storm.

Precisely. Those people have nothing, some peopel managed to still have something, stores that survived the natural destruction. Now those stores
are being destroyed by human destruction. Needless human destruction.

But not for the wealthy to remove or secure their valuables?

So let me get this straigh, the middle class (these people aren't poor, some are, lots aren't) doesn't have to leave, and if their stuff gets
destroyed, they can take somone elses. But by virtue of having enough sense to get yourself and your family to safety, you have to forfeit your
property to the mobs that didn't leave, didn't prepare, and won't go to shelters?

Even emergency centers were evacuated by helicopter.

They are evacuating the city, they are not pointing people to the highways and saying 'walk'. They are moving people to shelters. They were
resucing trapped people and moving them to shelters, they stopped that now to deal with rampaging looting mobs.

Your compassion

I make no claims at compassion.

poverty prevents choice. It's called an economic barrier.

These people are not below the poverty line.

In contaminated water?

Boil it and strain it and clean the diapers, at least try it before you break into a store and start stealing stuff, or you could've done the smart
thing and prepared.

Then, you presumably would blame her for making her children sick

Lets be clear, if I was in new orleans, and I didn't leave for whatever the reason, and I had kids and I couldn't give them clean diapers
without breaking the law, I'd break the law. Lets also be clear, these mobs are not made up of paupers scrambling for milk diapers water and
bread while the government does nothing. They are not suspending rescue operations because of mothers stealing powdered formula for thier
babies.

More black and white consistency, lacking in compassion and vision

Irrelevant.

Are you ready to threaten the entire nation with child appropriation for non-compliance?

I was being more of a smartass than anything else really. But honestly if she has no supplies for her kids, then she should be picked up and taken to
a shelter.

And that book/movie should be mandatory education for everyone living in these times

Jean Val Jean would've strangled the majority of these looters with his massive fists if he were mayor of new orleans. He stole bread, to feed his
dying and starving sister. No one is new orleans is starving. No one is eating tvs, jerseys or jewelry.

Can you explain to the citizens of New Orleans precisely how and why this situation is different?

I do not understand that question.

Can you explain why we arrest and incarcerate the little people, but not the rich and powerful?

International politics is power politics, domestic politics is legalistic. What court has jurisdiction over the rich meanies? Without a global
government, there is no global legal system, certainly nothing like what we find in the US.

As far as the other thread, I agree, the planning here was miserable, the people didn't leave the city, and the state and federal governments didn't
prepare for the disaster, yet again. Now what happens when people are moved into some of those so called 'concentration camps'? Is the government
being 'bad' by providing for their necessities while trying to cope with this disaster?

But to "get people to safety" means first suppressing the fire from the armed gangs that are SHOOTING at rescue workers.

I completly agree. We posted replies at the same time so you may not have read my last one.

They need to get people out but can't. The way these peole fire off the Guns its like they have never seen one before. Personally if I knew
civilians are running around with guns and shooting There is no way I am going anywhere to help people. It is like being in Iraq, How the hell are
they supposed to know who has a gun and who doesn't. If they were to give me the green light to go hunting...well then those people stuck in the
school will be ok. If someone were to look at me funny i would not hesitate to shoot. IF they point ANYTHING at me besides their finger I would
shoot. There is just no way to tell if someone has a gun until it is to late. Yeah my way would suck but it is the people who have guns that are
hurting the rescue efforts. That is why like I said earlier I would go on an ass kicking campaign with other people who want to get out of that
place.

[edit on 1-9-2005 by Timcouchfanclub]

that is not happening everywhere. 300 people trapped on the 3rd floor of a school are not shooting at people

nygdan, i agree, these people should not be in the city but they are. that is a fact. i agree they have to disperse certain "mobs" of people that
are carrying guns before they can rescue people all across the city?
what about the people trapped in the school/ are they shooting? i don't think so. they can make an attempt to rescue them.
what about the people that are forced to stay at the convention center?

fact is there is no good solution for this. whatever happens there could have been more done and done faster. i understand they have to prioritize too
but going on what i am hearing they could be doing a few things that they are not. to be fair, i am not there and i only hear what is reported on the
news and we all know that can be less than reliable

But the ambulance service in charge of taking the sick and injured from the Superdome suspended flights after a shot was reported fired at a military
helicopter. Richard Zuschlag, chief of Acadian Ambulance, said it had become too dangerous for his pilots.

Their not shooting? OK.....

The shooting doesn't have to happen everywhere...It just has to happen enough.

I saw a question of Where do these people go? I see no reason why we can't open up some of the Military Bases we have slosed around the country and
have them live there. I am sure they are ready to go. Pump in some electricty and get the red cross in.

But the ambulance service in charge of taking the sick and injured from the Superdome suspended flights after a shot was reported fired at a military
helicopter. Richard Zuschlag, chief of Acadian Ambulance, said it had become too dangerous for his pilots.

Their not shooting? OK.....

The shooting doesn't have to happen everywhere...It just has to happen enough.

I saw a question of Where do these people go? I see no reason why we can't open up some of the Military Bases we have slosed around the country and
have them live there. I am sure they are ready to go. Pump in some electricty and get the red cross in.

thats what i was thinking. there are bases all over the country that are closed and just sitting there. of course i don't have the answers but i have
to ask those questions.
i would think the military could have suitable "camps" or whatever the correct term is, they could have them set up rather fast and not sitting in a
convention center dying

Originally posted by Boondock78
what about the people trapped in the school/ are they shooting? i don't think so. they can make an attempt to rescue them.

Not if there are roving armed mobs. People trapped are in less danger than mobs of armed people shooting everywhere. The people that are rampaging
are the peopel that are going to be responsible when those three hundred people die.

fact is there is no good solution for this.

Evacuate the city, quell the mobs by arresting people (not by mowing them down), arrest looters on site and move them to makeshift camps outside of
the disaster zones (holding them until the mobs are clamped down on at least). Anyone stealing food is obviously not much of a problem, hold them
until the situation is stabilized, pick up their families and hold their families too. Activate the national guardsmen for the state and have other
states do the same and flood new orleans with soldiers, groups in every section. Have them seize all foodstuffs and disperse them to the crowds in an
orderly manner. Use state license records to get some sort of list to make sure that the food can be rationed properly. Extend the emergency zone to
the rest of the state and extend the martial law to other parts of the state, especially anywhere that produces or stores food and clothing, seize and
dispurse it. Once everyone that can be evacuated is, and most of the people are in camps receiving food clothing shelter and medicine, start
returning property to the property owners and letting people come back to get their stuff, draining the flood waters and rebuilding the city.
Thats the right thing to do. People won't like being told not to steal, people won't like being told where to go, but who cares?

Originally posted by Timcouchfanclub
I saw a question of Where do these people go? I see no reason why we can't open up some of the Military Bases we have slosed around the country and
have them live there. I am sure they are ready to go. Pump in some electricty and get the red cross in.

thats what i was thinking. there are bases all over the country that are closed and just sitting there. of course i don't have the answers but i have
to ask those questions.
i would think the military could have suitable "camps" or whatever the correct term is, they could have them set up rather fast and not sitting in a
convention center dying

Of course. We've been told that the Bush administration has built secret internment camps around the US; now let's put them to use.

i don't wish bad things on anyone and no matter how fast they get in to help these people it won't be fast enough. some of these people though could
have helped themselves with food and provisions and instead decided to help themselves to free sh*t

So what if people are looting, who cares, arresting looters is a waste of time when other peoples lives are at stake, the stuff is most likely damaged
anyway, as mentioned several times already.

The looting is only increasing the chaos. People are getting violent with each other, shooting guns and setting fires. It is making it impossible to
help the ones who aren't looting. And like Nygdan said all of those food and water goods could have been properly rationed out...Instead people are
hoarding it for themselves.

Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour told NBC's "Today" show that part of the looting problem has been an inability to get enforcement personnel into
critical areas. "We will have several thousand National Guard by the weekend and will put a stop to it," he said

Damn right they will stop it. Else they will meet the rath of the guy in that picture in Boondock78's post. Awsome picutre!!!!

Originally posted by Timcouchfanclub
And like Nygdan said all of those food and water goods could have been properly rationed out...Instead people are hoarding it for themselves.

Good point, I guess that's the human survival instinct kickin in, combined with some good ol' selfishness and stupidity, people competing
for food and water, while they should work together.
It's a step back I must agree, people resorting to such barbaric methods, but then again, what would you do to survive?
It might be hard to give a truly honest answer when you're not in such a situation, though.

It might be hard to give a truly honest answer when you're not in such a situation, though.

YEah I guess I can't say what I would do in this situation. Truthfully I would probably be going after all the water I could. After a day I would
probably feel bad and help to take it towards the Superdome. I can't get as upset about people taking the food and water...it isn't right but it
isn't nearly as bad as those you think its cool to take Guns, electronics...ect. Basically anything they can get their hands on. They are the
morons that need to be shot. And then they seriously use those weapons against police, resucue and other civilians. WTF is wrong with them.

I am still watching the coverage of this catastrophe. The U.S. government failed to have systems in place before the storm hit. We live in the most
powerful nation in the world. We should have the best response time and the most man power. However our own president took 72 hours to even comment
on the situation. Too little...Too Late.

We should have had the National Guard, FEMA, The American Red Cross, and other agencies standing by in Texas and Florida ready to move in immediately
by land, air, and sea as soon as the weather started to taper off. This obviously did not happen allowing the destruction of civilization in LA, MS,
and AL.

I know none of us here have been through this type of situation. But imagine yourself with:

NO FOOD
NO WATER
NO SANITATION
NO PERSONAL BELONGINGS
NO TRANSPORTATION
NO HOME
NO WHERE TO GO

You will do what is necessary to protect and feed yourself and your family. That is if you even know where your family is. ALIVE OR DEAD

I think there are a LOT more people with guns and ammo in the city than the media is making it out to seem. Think about it, they showed the Wall Mart
being looted but did they show people walking out with guns and ammo? Wall Mart has guns, and so do a lot of other guns shops, pawn shops, sporting
supplies in NO. There has to be a LOT of people with guns now. I would really not want to be in a situation where I had no gun there b/c that would
mean you have no means to get the food that remains in the city.

Another thing is, the gov is not going to bring in food and water to people stuck in the city anymore and its simple to see why. The people with guns
will take the food from the people that don't have guns and on top of that it would be mass rushing to the food trucks, probably stealing of the
truck, all the food. They would only be feeding the anarchy. Guns really do create a much worse situation of this whole thing.

I am still watching the coverage of this catastrophe. The U.S. government failed to have systems in place before the storm hit. We live in the most
powerful nation in the world. We should have the best response time and the most man power. However our own president took 72 hours to even comment on
the situation. Too little...Too Late.

OH my God its not Bush's fault. You know right after 9/11 the federal government gave the states billions of dollars to have evacuation plans set
in place in case of Natural or Terrorist disasters. WTF did Louisiana do with that money?

The way you posted that comment it sounds like you want to blaim Bush for the looting and floods. Well that must be it...Bush must have been giving
out guns and doing a raindance on top of the Superdome. Oh yeah and he told the people with the guns to shoot at the people trying to rescue and
evacuate others so it hurts our relief efforts

Well I watching a report on foxnews now thats saying that they are sending in thousands of national guard to patroll NO. Im guessing the police
arn't cutting it, and the police are prob being shot down with AK's and shutguns for their pistols and body armor now. I hate to say it but it
looks like this is going to turn into a little war on homeland to rescue the defensless and poor civillians and lost tourists with no guns. Watch
they'll might have to bring in tank soon to fight these people.

We all know that there are people in the states that are fed up with their lame low budget jobs, and b/c of this anarchy will only spread to more
areas if they don't get this under control soon. People may even start going to these areas in support of anarchy. It's hard to swallow but I
wouldn't be surprised to see it happen honestly.

Originally posted by GTWill
I am still watching the coverage of this catastrophe. The U.S. government failed to have systems in place before the storm hit. We live in the most
powerful nation in the world. We should have the best response time and the most man power. However our own president took 72 hours to even comment
on the situation. Too little...Too Late.

XYZ, dude. Your ignorance is showing.

Bush ordered the mobilization of FEMA and national guard units to "standby status," and declared Louisiana a Disaster Area more than 12 hours
BEFORE Katrina's LANDFALL. This was only the second time in us history a president has declared a disaster before the event took
place.

It's hilarious to watch people (like you) critique the work of FEMA, redcross, state public safety etc., and accuse them of doing nothing, when in
fact, hurricane's force increased 4-fold in less than a 24 hour span.

You hold them to an impossible standard. What you envision would not have been possible without a police state; the govt. would have needed to seize
needed supplies under force of arms and evacuate people to "concentration camps" so as to maintain order. And then you'd have cussed 'em for
brutality.

Bush also got the EPA to waive gasoline additive restrictions for 3 months, to help make up for production shortfalls. He also sent 40k national
guard in, with amphibious vehicles.

BTW, the spokesmodel for the Louisiana State police said on NPR that they are not enforcing "property law" in stricken areas-- they are only
intervening where individual live is in danger, otherwise they are focusing on rescuing people. In other words, they aren't stopping looters because
they are focused on freeing trapped persons, seniors, isolated children, etc.

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