* Another turn in the stomping incident. The Louisville Courier Journal reported today that the Rand Paul campaign says it won't be returning nearly $2000 in campaign contributions chipped in by Tim Profitt, the former Bourbon County coordinator who admitted to stomping MoveOn's Lauren Valle.

But last night, less than 24 hours ago, the Paul campaign told Fox News that they would be returning the money, according to video the Jack Conway campaign sent my way:

The Fox anchor noted last night that the Paul campaign said they were disassociating themselves from the stomper, and added: "That disassociation includes returning any campaign donations he made." Seems that's no longer operative. Honestly, should this one really be a tough call?

Paul's campaign has already taken heat from Conway for not initially saying whether it would return campaign contributions from three white separatists or from a donor who ran an adult website.

* More enthusiasm gap madness: A new New York Times poll finds that fewer than four in 10 Dems still aren't paying a lot of attention to the elections, versus more than half of Republicans who are. Hey, what's the rush?

* Nice take by Steve Benen on the larger meaning of the $100 million in attack ads foes of health reform have run since it passed.

Donations from Wall Street, medical and insurance firms, energy conglomerates and other corporations have shifted decisively toward Republicans over the past year in the wake of congressional battles over health-care reform, financial regulations and other issues.

* Obama held his first sit-down with activist-type liberal bloggers today, and Sam Stein notes it seems like an effort to script in advance the online narrative about the election fallout.

The whole "gotcha" about returning campaign contributions is getting tiring. The "stomper" may be a dirty rotten scoundrel, but it is silly to expect that candidates disgorge contributions that were legally made because of who made them.

By the way, yesterday STRF was posting as "RayofSunshine." "SolarEnergy" on the prior thread is a new commenter. Hmmm . . .

-Misconduct revelations against Alaska tea party candidate may favor Murkowski-

Now, the race is shaping up to be a contest between Murkowski, who is mounting a write-in campaign, and Democrat Scott McAdams, the little-known mayor of Sitka. Both Murkowski and the National Republican Senatorial Committee, which is backing Miller, are running TV ads going after McAdams - strong evidence that both camps now view him as a real threat.

Republicans accuse Democrats who voted for “Obamacare” of supporting a government takeover of healthcare. Many promise to repeal the reform passed in March after contentious debate and extended medical insurance to millions of Americans have none.

But public opinion on the law has improved — according to Democratic pollsters Stan Greenberg and Celinda Lake — and will work for Democrats in the presidential and congressional elections two years down the road.

“Every day that passes, healthcare gets more popular,” Lake said at a forum hosted by Health Affairs magazine.

“Candidates have changed their rhetoric from repeal to repeal and replace. They’ve noticed, as we have, that voters don’t want to start all over again,” she said.

"Ralston has been doing great work on all the public polling on the race."

Yeah.

And Greg, how can a "reputable" polling place get away with fudging the numbers so badly? I heard neither CNN nor Rass included a ZERO sample of anyone under 50 years old. NONE! How can they publish that and be considered honest?

Ralston:

6 mins ago:

Got crosstabs on CNN, tweeps. Get this: They have Reid holding 96% Ds, Angle 82% Rs. If so Reid wins. Apply to current turnout, Reid up 8!

"The toilet paper roll is about to undergo its biggest change in 100 years: going tubeless.

"On Monday, Kimberly-Clark, one of the world's biggest makers of household paper products, will begin testing Scott Naturals Tube-Free toilet paper at Walmart and Sam's Club stores throughout the Northeast. If sales take off, it may introduce the line nationally and globally - and even consider adapting the technology into its paper towel brands.

"No, the holes in the rolls aren't perfectly round. But they do fit over TP spindles and come with this promise: Even the last piece of toilet paper will be usable - without glue stuck on it."

"The Democratic National Committee formally has asked the Pentagon for reams of correspondence between military agencies and nine potential Republican presidential candidates, a clear indication that Democrats are building opposition-research files on specific 2012 contenders even before the midterm elections.

"... the FOIA request provides a window into how deeply into potential candidates' pasts opposition researchers are looking, even at this early stage.

"The request for information on Gingrich stretches back to 1979, when he was a freshman member of the House. The DNC is asking for information related to Palin's service on the Wasilla, Alaska, City Council in the early 1990s, while the Pawlenty request includes his service on the Planning Commission in Eagan, Minn., in 1988 and 1989."

All of the CNN/Time polls do this, except for the odd exception (New York and Colorado, for example) that show no responses from people under the age of 50. None.

bluestatedon:

To follow up on marionetta's comment, the PA poll lists NO responses under the age of 35, NO responses from Philly, NO responses from "urban" areas, and, most importantly, NO responses from "non-whites."

I'm on record here as opposing "banning" of people who are being annoying. Today demonstrates why I take that position. You banned the person blogging as SavetheRainforest, Classic777, CapitalorCapitol, LeafofLife, and (yesterday) RayofSunshine (plus others names). He is now back as "SolarEnergy." That didn't take long, did it?

A policy of "banning" leads to lots of comments about who should be banned and why, while doing nothing to stop someone (such as the aforementioned commenter) whose entire existence revolves around seeking attention here.

Greg-- much as you are throwing all of the propaganda out there against Paul and for the indicted-felon paid provocateur who is enjoying her moment in the sun, all of you and your liberal friends are still going to be crying on November 2nd.

The voters in America care about jobs, healthcare and their Constitutional rights. Not BS fake controversies ginned up by you and your allies in the media.

Solar Energy formerly known as the troll STRF now engages in more strange behavior. Either he thinks that

1) Greg is so stupid that he'll be fooled by the new alias.

Or 2), he thinks he'll charm Greg by telling clever stories about seeing himself coming and going.

Or 3), he's so passive aggressive that he can't help himself and has to take jabs at everyone, including Greg Sargent, as his final parting gesture.

I'm betting on the third possibility as the true one, because 1) no one is fooled about the aliases and 2) no one thinks the McDonald's story is clever.

If I were trying to keep my place on a blog, I'd knock off all the aliases, all the jabs at the host, all the paranoia, all the challenges, excuses and whining. But, that does not seem to be STRF's nature.

"Greg-- much as you are throwing all of the propaganda out there against Paul and for the indicted-felon paid provocateur who is enjoying her moment in the sun, all of you and your liberal friends are still going to be crying on November 2nd."

Whoa! Have you cleared that accusation with bernie yet? I don't believe Bernie has weighed in, as of yet, on the validity of that charge.

The U.S. government knows it's awarded nearly $18 billion in contracts for rebuilding Afghanistan over the last three years, but it can't account for spending before 2007.

Thousands of firms received wartime contracts, but the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction found it too difficult to untangle how billions of additional dollars had been spent because of the U.S. agencies' poor recordkeeping.

"Data got better from 2007 on," said Susan Phalen, a spokeswoman with SIGAR, "but it remains to be seen whether we'll ever know how much U.S. agencies spent overall."

Certainly the pleas to ignore people has not helped the situation either, which just encourages a hostile atmosphere.

So what, we all disagree about Obama.

He's going to be voted out in two years and health care is going to be repealed as well. It will take some time for the Tea Party to examine everything Obama's czars have done, and get all that undone as well.

It is far better to seek agreement on things one side wants to do, instead of jamming unpopular things into place.

A technical correction to your post about the poster who will not be mentioned. I don't think Greg has blocked all (or any) of his handles. He just uses them all in an attempt to stick his finger in Greg's eye and prove that Greg can't ban him. Not that it makes a difference to your larger point.

ethan2010,
"But public opinion on the law has improved — according to Democratic pollsters Stan Greenberg and Celinda Lake — and will work for Democrats in the presidential and congressional elections two years down the road."
-------

Which goes to show that if you visit enough kookie sites, you'll eventually find whatever opinion you're looking for. I'm sure the 15% of people still out of work in 2012 will be all excited about HCR.

That's awesome, thanks SBJ. Think of how much cardboard will be saved. It will probably reduce the cost of TP as well.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 27, 2010 6:51 PM
-----

Another thing Obama can take credit for. His policies resulted in tube-free toilet paper. Next will be a government mandate that eveyone has to use it. But only one square per crap. If that isn't enough, a liberal will come and wipe your butt.

The "real" unemployment rate is that high now. Not sure why the other fellow feels that unemployment will plummet and approval of HCR will soar. Even Democrats are running against it---oh, it's a great idea, they just want to tear it up and start over, kind of like Republicans.

"I lied about accessing all of the computers. I then admitted about accessing the computers, but lied about what I was doing. Finally, I admitted what I did," Miller wrote in a March 17, 2008, e-mail to Fairbanks North Star Borough Attorney Rene Broker.

[...]

"It has been apparent in the last several months that you are under significant stress and it has affected your judgment," said the letter from the borough attorney.

[...]

"Finally, I expect that you will work hard to rebuild the co-worker relationships that were harmed due to your actions on March 12, 2008. It will take effort on your part to regain their trust," the letter said.

Thanks for the link. I read it. I don't know whether Greg is busying banning all his aliases or not. This is the exact same thing that happened on the Fix. Chris Cilliza would ban one or more of the aliases, then STRF would create another. I thought one of the most "in your face" alias was: ICanPostThis. Finally, the whole comment section got changed, and somehow, someway, they were able to block STRF totally. You'd think that the person in question would enough pride to go away when he's unwanted, but based on past experience, don't count on that.

The "real" unemployment rate is that high now.
-------------------------------
Without arguing how high the "real" unemployment rate is, are you saying the nominal unemployment rate is going UP to 15% in two years? That's a pretty amazing prediction. What data do you read that supports that, because I'd like to be informed.

Between work and kiddie soccer...noticing the Washington Post is having a really hard time dealing with the STRF person, like a dreaded disease. They thought they inoculated the fix, they sterilized it instead. Too bad, the post is losing time trying to get rid of one person with whole blog methods. They need a terminator.

If they dedicated one person to dealing with their trolls, one after another, like an exterminator, job never over, but job very easy...one shows up? stomp! does not show up, terminator works on safety committee projects...just a thought

rukidding7 wrote,
"Right now we certainly don't pull the plug on granny but we pull it on younger folks who end up with terminal illnesses because a lack of health care prevents any routine exams that could identify things like cancer before it's too late...but by all means spend $$$ on another procedure for 94 year old granny like a colonoscopy or paps smear."
-------

Shortly after Labor Day, as polls continued to sink, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) realized it needed a cash infusion for the upcoming midterm elections. Its chairman, former Virginia Governor Tim Kaine, turned to the Bank of America to secure a $15 million revolving credit line. Then, in the middle of this month, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) got another loan from BofA for an additional $17 million.

What was their collateral? It turns out, not much.

The DNC claims their collateral was an intangible piece of property — its donor mailing list. The DCCC only cites unnamed “assets.” Neither party organization possesses real estate even close to cover the $32 million. The DNC’s headquarters is owned by another entity. Even it was put up as collateral, its market value was last estimated at only $13.7 million.

Were the Bank of America deals legitimate, arms-length transactions, or were they cozy sweetheart deals in which nothing was really put up to secure a $32 million loan?

And if it was the latter, could it be considered an illegal campaign contribution from the largest bank holding company in America?

There also is troubling evidence that two days before closing on the loan transaction, the DNC changed its own privacy provisions to allow the selling or sharing of private donor data.

Is STRF really banned? Even if he's back with a new name and no extraneous caps, it's great to think about. Was there a banning announcement? The banns of bans? Because I missed it, please direct me to the right thread.

Meantime, if it makes anyone feel hopeful, we are insanely busy at my workplace and hiring. We're very optimistic about 2011.

Posted by: bearclaw1
-----------------------------
I understand what you mean about virtual shunning. It SHOULD work. Plum line posters are much better about shunning this offender than Fix posters. I think there is something about this particular troll who will not leave whether ignored or not. He has been ignored, for days on end, and still he comes back. It's something more compulsive.

I like shrink's idea: If they dedicated one person to dealing with their trolls, one after another, like an exterminator, job never over, but job very easy...one shows up? stomp! does not show up, terminator works on safety committee projects...just a thought

Brigade, it is true, but for the word liberal. It is the human mind at work.

It rationalizes input endlessly (that is how we drive home and don't even think about how). But in the world of abstraction, if some fact does not fit our wish and fear reconciliation models, we use defense mechanisms so as not to panic. Untrained minds will invent and own the most comical Rube Goldberg devices, just to make everything right with the world. We are all demi-gods, our own little ego admiration machines.

Ever notice that there is no voter integrity measure or check at any point in the process that Democrats don't oppose?

They oppose any verification of identity or citizenship, from registration through voting. Oh, and they are fine with New Black Panthers guarding the door with nightsticks.

No one believes you folks any more. The game is over. You are fired next week.

Posted by: quarterback1 | October 27, 2010
---------

The soft bigotry of low expectations. Dems are fine with the Panthers intimidating Clinton voters because they don't realize that if you indulge people who act like animals, they will continue to act like animals. Have you heard some of the comments made by these Panthers? At most of the polling stations where I've voted, someone would have taken the nightstick away from the guy, worn it out on his skull, and then shoved it up his arse and broke it off. But then instead of intimidated voters, you'd have Al Sharpton, Loonie Looie Farrakhan, and the usual rent-a-mob morons marching in the street, screaming racism. That would get the attention of Holder and the Dems. Bet on it. Poor suckers.

Maybe it's just my paranoid nature, but seeing many of these Right Wing troll postings on other progressive sites, I have a feeling that many of them are flunkies of the RNC hired to disrupt discusssion.

Thanks for bringing over the news. You apparently know very little about finance. A line of credit is not a loan. It is an authorization to borrow. I have an unsecured line of credit with my bank, based on years of banking history. Big deal.

If the DNC draws on the line of credit, that is a loan, and they have to pay interest. So how is the line of credit an unlawful campaign contribution?

Now are going to give equal time to the $15 million line of credit the RNC took out with its bank this summer? I mean, since you imply the DNC got its line of credit out of desperation, how do you explain the RNC's line of credit, against which the RNC has drawn a loan of at least $2.5 million?

I just saw Save the RainForest coming out of an ACORN office carrying a massive stack of absentee ballots.

I decided to go up to him and talk for a bit, and I asked him what he was doing with all the absentee ballots.

He said that most of the absentee ballots at ACORN were already filled out, but he got a bunch not filled out already.

Well, I asked him if that was really him at McDonald's and he said yes, and he saw Elvis too.

Save The RainForest then said he just got back helping Harry Reid fix the voting machines in Nevada. Apparently, the casino guys who work on the slot machines weren't able to get the voting machines to jump like Harry wanted them to.

nisleib wrote,
"It seems to be a part of the Cult of Victimhood that so many rightwingers like to wallow in."
--------

My vote for the silliest post of the day. Rightwingers always screaming discrimination, demanding preferential treatment and special programs to help them out. Going to court to get liberal judges to find non-existent rights for them in the Constitution. LOL. Victims indeed.

I wouldn't want to live in Nevada, or even visit the place. It's bad enough just driving through it. It's just tragic that we have to share the same planet as Angle.
She is the lowest form of the human species.

Posted by: filmnoia | October 27, 2010
-------

Nevada will manage to survive without you. One less D-Bagger on the dole. Nevada's gain is someone else's loss.

Sounds like a class act, and the kind of guy you want representing a whole state, eh Brigade?

Oh I know you have a snappy comeback for that because he IS in fact -- lies, deceit, incompetence and all -- someone you'd want representing you.

Posted by: Ethan2010 | October 27, 2010 7:33 PM
------

Uh, he won't be representing me since I don't live in Alaska. Your screed does not take away from the fact that the Democrat is running a distant third in the race---contrary to your earlier assertion.

"they were able to block STRF totally. You'd think that the person in question would enough pride to go away when he's unwanted, but based on past experience, don't count on that."

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 27, 2010 7:33 PM
-------

Why can't you drop this obsession with Rainforest? Shrink2 pointed out last night that the Fix is now virtually ruined except, of course, your old friend Zouk is now posting there under a new moniker. What exactly do you expect Greg to do?

And apparently the Washington Post is not fully aware that they destroyed the Fix with their new moderation policies.

12Bar is over at this blog trying to settle old scores which she thinks she has from her glory days at the Fix.

The fighting from there is now transferred to this blog

The solution is to get the Fix to open back up to everyone. Stop the fighting. Stop the personal attacks, and just cut out the personal stuff. Discuss the issues and that is it.

That solution would clear out this place.

It's like the Palestinian Right of Return - there is International Law which guarantees that refugees can go back to their homeland. Our homeland has been occupied by a rogue computer program and some insane moderation policies.

The "real" unemployment rate is that high now.
-------------------------------
Without arguing how high the "real" unemployment rate is, are you saying the nominal unemployment rate is going UP to 15% in two years? That's a pretty amazing prediction. What data do you read that supports that, because I'd like to be informed.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 27, 2010 7:37 PM
-----

Let's not play games. The economy is in the toilet. The Obama agenda has the business community afraid to act. The housing market is still in crisis, at least 15% (probably more) of people who want to work are out of work---some have simply quit looking and their benefits have run out---regardless of the "nominal" rate. I see very little cause for optimism when we have a President with no business experience whatsoever and no inkling as to how to proceed. In Obama's world and yours, too, I assume, every piece of bad news is still the fault of George Bush and the Republicans, while every time the sun rises in the morning, it's because of these wonderful Obama policies. Barry's only failure is that he hasn't made enough speeches; the policies are wonderful.

I think it was Dan Rather who said this guy couldn't sell watermelons. He is currently busy on radio and out on the campaign trail providing live ammunition to be used against him in 2012. Maybe he thinks that a few far-left wingers and a contingent of inner-city blacks and immigrants who can't speak English will be enough to help him defeat his "enemies" and retain control of the White House. We shall see.

I am a serious investor. I don't play games with my money. Whether or not the unemployment rate goes up to 15% in two years is important to my investing strategy. I asked you respectfully if you had some data to back this up. Not just political stuff--I don't care about politics when it comes to investing. You would do me a great favor if you would share your data.

I imagine there are other true investors on this blog, who would also be grateful for the data upon which you base your prediction. I would be selling out if I thought you were right and looking for safer fixed income investments.

"Uh, he won't be representing me since I don't live in Alaska. Your screed does not take away from the fact that the Democrat is running a distant third in the race---contrary to your earlier assertion."

Uh, I said that you WOULD support him.

You DO support him, which means you support someone who has admittedly lied on the job.

And I'm guessing you support $arah Pay-lin which means you support a liar who supports liars.

"Instead he had to go with ernest Soviet bureaucratese."

Saving money is good business-sense. I thought you were a proponent of the "free market." I guess that you're just a proponent of everything I oppose. Such as waste, pollution, and stupidity.

12BarBlue wrote,
"I am a serious investor. I don't play games with my money. Whether or not the unemployment rate goes up to 15% in two years is important to my investing strategy. I asked you respectfully if you had some data to back this up."
-------

I don't have access to any data that isn't available to you. We just have different takes on how the economy is going to respond to Democratic policies. I have told you two or three times now, that the 15% is a conservative estimate of the CURRENT REAL unemployment rate.

Here:

“60 Minutes“: The Real Unemployment Rate Is 17%CBS: “The national unemployment rate of 9.5% percent sounds incredibly high and of course, it is. But, it doesn’t nearly capture the depth of the trouble. It doesn’t count the people who’ve seen their hours cut to part-time, it doesn’t count the people who’ve quit looking for work. If you add all of that together, the unemployed and the underemployed, it’s not 9.5% percent, it’s 17% and here in California it’s 22%.”

You're being obstinate. You knew this as well as I did. So why did you need to see it posted? No one knows for sure what the unemployment rate will be in two years, least of all me. But I think you are more optimistic than I am. Probably, the best thing that could happen to Republicans would be for Dems to hold very slim majorities in the House and Senate after the upcoming elections. Then we could have two more years of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid as the face of the party, Republicans would have a stronger hand, and the BIG wave wouldn't come until 2012 and wash Obama away with everyone else.
Then I'd be more optimistic.

There really shouldn't be much mystery about a revolving line of credit. That, in essence, is what a credit card account is. You have a credit limit. If you don't use it, you may or may not pay a fee to maintain the account. If you use it to "buy stuff," (i.e., you borrow against your credit limit), then you pay interest until you have paid off the outstanding balance. It differs from a basic "loan" in that as you pay off the balance, your credit limit is restored.

For a business (or for the DNC and RNC), a revolving line of credit should be a means of cash flow management. If bills are weighted toward beginning of the montyh, but income comes in throughout the month, the line of credit ensures you have the ability to pay the bills when due.

My wife and I use a line of credit to backstop our checking account. A lot of our bills are paid automatically from our account, and the line of credit ensures that bills will be paid even if there is some unforeseen problem with deposit of our paychecks (hasn't ever happened, but we don't want to ever have a bill go unpaid or pay an overdraft fee -- the interest on a drawdown of the line of credit would be much less than the overdraft fee).

Why the DNC having a line of credit from its bank is a scandal is something I don't comprehend.

Thanks for the info. After I asked for it, I thought--that wasn't cool. But thanks for humoring me anyway. Glad to have another lawyer onblog.

Yes, a line of credit, whether drawn down or not, is debt--not a contribution, not equity, not funny business. Just ordinary business--everyone has one--well, I should say businesses have them. Unsecured LOC--yeah, they come that way. They also come secured.

Well, when do you want to talk about how badly Obama is hurting the economy and hurting the hiring of millions of Americans???

The democrats arrogantly insisted on nominating and electing an inexperienced and unqualified person - forcing an affirmative action person on the nation - a person who simply does not belong in the job.

The situation is actually worse than that, because Obama and his left wing appointee czars want to force a far left agenda on the country - without the consent of the governed.

The democrats just want to walk about from this situation.

The democrats just don't want to talk about how bad it is. How bad the economy is. How Obama and the democrats wasted the stimulus money. How Obama does not have any plan at all as to how to proceed. It has gotten completely ridiculous. The democrats think they know what they are doing, but when it all blows up in their faces, they don't even want to talk about it. The whole thing is entirely irresponsible.

Perhaps you are so used to arguing, you don't see a garden variety question when it is posed. For the purposes of investing, I don't care about what some pundit says the "real" unemployment rate is. The market reacts to regular reports, like the nominal unemployment rate. If you thought it was going to go UP, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you might have had data to support that.

I have been in the stock market through the lows and have had a very good couple of years of returns. In fact, they are among the best returns I have ever had. I am holding stocks that I have a good bit of gain in, and my work tells me they are going up further.

But, I am always open to other informed investors who have different views. I would not be a good investor if I had a closed mind.

I wrote,
Uh, he won't be representing me since I don't live in Alaska. Your screed does not take away from the fact that the Democrat is running a distant third in the race---contrary to your earlier assertion."

Then Ethan2010 wrote,

"Uh, I said that you WOULD support him.

You DO support him, which means you support someone who has admittedly lied on the job.

And I'm guessing you support $arah Pay-lin which means you support a liar who supports liars."

This post is a tad incoherent. Given the choices, I probably would vote for Miller if I lived in Alaska.

Politicians who lie? The horror. The horror.

From here on, I think you're talking to someone else, but why you cobble together responses to multiple people without reference to them, I have no idea. Very strange.
-------

"Instead he had to go with ernest Soviet bureaucratese."

Saving money is good business-sense. I thought you were a proponent of the "free market." I guess that you're just a proponent of everything I oppose. Such as waste, pollution, and stupidity.

But, I am always open to other informed investors who have different views. I would not be a good investor if I had a closed mind.

Posted by: 12BarBlues | October 27, 2010 9:18 PM
--------

Congratulations on your success in the market. I hope your gains of the last couple of years have erased the losses of the prior year. I have no idea whether you invest in general funds or particular stocks. In any event, just because we have another rough couple of years doesn't mean there won't be isolated opportunities to make money in particular areas. But I know your too knowledgeable to bet on tips from anonymous bloggers, so all I can do is wish you luck. Frankly, I hope the unemployment rate is cut in half over the next two years and the economy booms. I'm not rooting for failure, I'm just skeptical.

The new video clip, posted Wednesday by CNN, indicated Sink was handed the phone before she was told the message was about her debate against Rick Scott, her Republican opponent for governor. Also, the new video doesn't completely verify some statements made by CNN debate moderator John King.

King said the stylist told Sink, "I have a message from staff." But the woman never says those words in the video clip CNN posted on its website.

King also said, "the makeup artist clearly says, 'It's from Brian.' " But the woman, whom the Sink campaign will not identify, isn't so clear in the snippet posted by CNN.

"I don't know who that's from," she tells Sink. Her voice then trails off into a whisper of a question: "If it's from... Brian?"

King also suggested the stylist described the contents of the message, but the CNN video doesn't show evidence of that comment, either.

It's unclear if CNN had more audio that it refused to post or if King misspoke.

And holy crap is David Gregory all in Rubio's backside on every program praising him.

The one take Gregory had for each interview he gave today was Rubio's courage in breaking from the Republican party and also his saying he's willing to raise the SS age over time to address the issue.

He said it on Morning Joe where of course Joe and Mika both nodded in support and then again on CSPAN radio this afternoon.

I think Gregory has some weird kinda man crush on the guy and is looking forward to having him on MTP every weekend to become the new MTP darling now that John McCain has openly turned into a bitter old man.

"The latter part of 2008 through 2009 was challenging for both our company and the U.S. equipment rental industry as a whole. As the financial crisis led into a recession, credit restrictions and the macro economy triggered a severe downturn in non-residential construction activity of unprecedented depth and duration. Late in the first quarter of 2010, we began to see signs of a potential recovery in our end markets; this has continued through the second and third quarters, becoming more pronounced by June. We believe that our performance in the third quarter—which includes record quarterly time utilization of 71.3 percent—reflects both seasonal and cyclical improvements in our operating environment."

Record quarterly time utilization.

That tells me (a) URI has cut costs as far as they possibly can, and they are redlining on the resources they have. They are going to start buying more equipment and hiring more people.

Psychology may be starting to shift from fear of risk to fear of missing opportunities.

URI is a pretty good indicator of construction activity and business activity in general. Retailers seem to have had a better BTS than expected. It also makes me think unemployment is going to be closer to 8% than 15% by 2012.

I am not saying "buy URI", I am just pointing out that it appears Corporate America is not buying into the double dip theory, and the early indications are that they are starting to expand.

Of course the bond market is telling us something completely different, so take that for what its worth.

Republican Rick Scott again dipped into the trust account of his wife, Annette, to pump another $1.5 million into his Let's Get to Work electioneering committee. He's now spent $48.8 million in his campaign account and $12.7 million through the 527 committee.

In addition to the money from his wife's account, Scott's electioneering committee received another $700,000 since its update last week.

That $700k came from 27 donors including:

* $150,000 from Blue Cross/Blue Shield. The state's largest health insurer has given Scott's committee $300,000.

* $125,000 from Automated Healthcare Solutions, a Miramar-based company opposed to legislation favored by Scott's opponent, Democrat Alex Sink. The legislation was aimed at reducing the cost of prescription drugs in the state's workers' compensation program. The company also gave $25,000 in September.

* $25,000 from the Florida Medical Association, which also opposes the workers comp/prescription drug bill.

* $100,000 from the Florida Chamber and a political action committee tied to the chamber's president. The chamber and its affiliated groups have now given $300,000 to Scott's committee.

* $12,500 from Alico Inc., the agriculture/development business run by Florida Senate budget chief J.D. Alexander.

* $25,000 from Freedom First Committee, the group run by incoming Senate President Mike Haridopolos, whose group receive a $25,000 check two days earlier from the Florida Medical Association-funded Citizens for Honesty in Politics.

Economic recoveries are run by small businesses - and small business hire when they recovery. Obama is standing in the way of all that, because Obama is insisting that his ego comes before the economy.

The health care plan is dragging down hiring.

What is worse, the actual details of Obama's health care plan are only now coming out in professional seminars - and filtering down. Small businesses are learning that Obama has forced a choice on them: keep their employees on health care insurance or cut them all off and pay a penalty.

Apparenlty Obama has added an incentive for businesses to throw everyone into the government programs - it is less expensive to pay the penalties than it is to pay for health insurance.

So much for the commitment to employer-based health insurance we heard so much about.

The point is the uncertainty, and the chaos surrounding all this is dragging down hiring, it is halting the economic recovery in its tracks.

The democrats simply will not listen or discuss any of this. Witness Kathleen's comments above.

The best thing the democrats could ever do is cut loose Obama as soon as possible. Get him to resign - and let the economy recover.

Actually SolarEnergy, nobody is willing to listen or discuss any of this with you because you're like a relentless wall a stupid. Arguing with you is like arguing with someone from Jerry Springer. In the end, everyone gets dragged down to your level and we all end up sounding like a bunch of blabbering idiots.

So instead, we just point, laugh and have discussions with everyone else.

SolarEnergy, aka sundayschoolstalker, you're a sorry racist sack of crap. Nobody tries to argue anything of substance with you because you make no sense. You blabber endlessly in circles like the crazy man on the corner everyone walks wide circles around and murmur quietly about and try and avoid eye contact with for fear of you charging and possibly getting some odd sickness from.

qb, Obama's not suggesting raped women carry the child to birth as Angle, Buck, Paul, O'Donnell, Miller and Ayotte and the rest of the theocrats that have sneaked by as some sort of tea party crap have.

IMO, the only reason why anyone would be willing to tie up money for 10 years at 2.7% is that they are scared witless. Certainly indicates a lot of fear remains.

Bill Gross of PIMCO was speculating that people are hanging on to bonds waiting for QEII.

Certainly possible, but I think the bond market is being driven by retail. I remember reading a Trim Tabs estimate that the retail inflows into bond funds is larger that the inflows into tech stock funds in the late 90s.

The scary thought is that the bond market has a better handle on the status of the banks and is betting that there are further shoes to drop.

I am not saying "buy URI", I am just pointing out that it appears Corporate America is not buying into the double dip theory, and the early indications are that they are starting to expand.
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I have been buying the dips for months. First, it was large technologies, then I got buy signals from water technologies, green technology, chips stocks. I bought back into the China Fund, a perennial favorite of mine. It looks to me like the market keeps making flag formations that resolve to the upside. The stock market definitely is not signaling double dip. In fact, there is a neon sign around the stock market saying "V" bottom back in April, 2009.

I think the bond market is being driven by retail.
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And the stock market is probably being driven by institutions and hedge funds chasing better returns than the bond market. ?

I don't have any great insights on the bond market, but I can't ignore what it is saying.

I don't have any evidence that the bond market thinks there are more shoes to drop, I'm just speculating as to what they are thinking.

Maybe the bond market won't sell off in a meaningful way until housing bottoms.

I don't know. Most of the bond guys I know are distressed / high yield guys, not Treasury guys.

I suspect it is a combination of professional investors holding on for a couple of more points and planning to sell into QEII and retail that is still more worried about return of capital than return on capital.

@tao If Sink is toast so is the state of Florida...Paladino is personally more offensive and despicable...Rick Scott is dangerous! A thief who laid off thousands, ran HCA's quality of health care so low that network TV was doing investigate reports on the dangers of HCA hospitals...and of course committed so much fraud that his own board of directors fired him and accepted a 1.7 BILLION $ fine...then he starts Solantic and voila we have already had lawsuits from physicians charging that Scott encouraged them to fraudently sign off on documents...the last case settled out of court six days before Scott entered the race...Scott refused to release that deposition....Scott is truly a scumbag...a technicality during a debate is not going to derail Sink...it's just like your Giants holding...if the ref thinks no harm no foul he's not going to throw the flag...the charges against Sink are not....well let's say she doesn't have brownshirts out in front of the debate hall kicking the sh&t out of small defenseless women.

@Brigade....You're not funny or snarky dude...simply disgusting. After a weekend's post where you claimed the only reason Tea Party folks would visit a "liberal" neighborhood was to get their knobs polished or their boots licked...you must love Rand Paul's goons...tonight you add...
"If that isn't enough, a liberal will come and wipe your butt."

Your mother must be very proud of raising such a class act. You are an uncouth bore!

I don't have any great insights on the bond market, but I can't ignore what it is saying.
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@sold2u,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I have very little experience in bonds, so I'm always trying to pick the brains of bond investors. I would not be surprised that there is retail pressure in the market which keeps prices elevated. For sure, retail fled equities, which, like always, is too bad.

I think the monetary environment is good for equities in the short/intermediate term. The feds are going to keep a lid on rates, so the only market that will look attractive is equities. There is a lot of money on the sidelines looking to come into the market (I understand), which is why the market keeps climbing its wall of worry.

tao, thanks for that Bowen testimony. I hadn't seen that yet. I'm just waiting for the shoe to drop. We've noticed a real drop off in our business and those of our customers since the mortgage mess has been unraveling. Everyone's hunkered down as low as they can go. We're back out of the market ourselves. We rode the wave back up and jumped ship.

shrik2, the TIPS are being invested in because of inflation being predicted by the QE2 the FED is talking about and inflation is the least of our problems right now. They have been fighting off deflation this whole time which would wreck this economy.

I would not be surprised that the banks who served as originators or intermediaries will have the snot sued out of them by the MBS investors (is the right term: MBS?).

I just started to read the doc that tao cited, and it looks like the Chief Underwriter says "whoops, we didn't underwrite the mortgages but we warranted that we did". Everyone knows that underwriting standards went out the window from about 2004-2007 while every oddball nontraditional mortgage (interest only, reduced interest, etc) was written and sold into the securitization channels.

I still don't think that the big banks will be able to survive the current foreclosure situation.

The Courts of each of the 50 States will have to decide whether each State will accept what one Judge called "counterfeit" documents - instead of the real documents as provided for by 300 years of property law.

In addition, the mortgage portfolio investors are gearing up their lawyers - who are going to sue claiming that the paperwork was not placed properly in the portfolios - and therefore the losses are not theirs either.

That is a massive shoe to drop.

The laws governing those portfolios just might be solidly on the side of the investors.

Maybe at the end, the banks failing will not be so bad. These guys are not really helping the economic recovery now - and it will probably be a good thing to let them go.

I haven't weighed in on the Move-on girl yet. She's just a kid, an activist, but really just an idealistic kid trying to make a point. All the people acting like she could have been some sort of assassin in the making are blowing smoke IMO. The Paul campaign knew who she was, wig and all, knew her game plan and when the cops wouldn't help them out they went rogue.

The folks complaining about her expressing her free speech rights are the same ones who were cheering on all the Tea Partiers last year while they were disrupting the town halls. You can't have it both ways.

A few people here act like she deserved it, or she's somehow lucky the guy stepped on her because now she's famous, uh NO. She was assaulted and groped, in case you missed that part, because she wanted to ask the candidate a question and because she supports his opponent. Classy of y'all.

One reason folks are hinky re: the BOA line of cred to the Donks, is that the Dems put up as part of their collateral their donor list(s). This appears to have been done without notifying donors (Ethan did you get an e-mail?). It's also a bit dubious that the value of collateral comes within a galaxy or two of the $$$ of the two loans.

Sooo....BOA could be plausibly called a donor while under Fed scrutiny for, uh, some problematic 102,000 (so far) robo-signed foreclosure docs.

Maybe at the end, the banks failing will not be so bad. These guys are not really helping the economic recovery now - and it will probably be a good thing to let them go.
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Words fail me.

We have a wholesale manufacturer/distributor business. It doesn't particularly interface with the mortgage industry at all, but we deal with mom & pops across the country. Thousands of small businesses in every corner of the USA. We generally touch base with about 150-200 different ones each week.

We hear all the stories, from mortgage crunch to cash flow to lack of customers. It's pretty tough at the bottom of the business food chain still and not looking particularly rosey. This foreclosure mess has everyone in a tizzy wondering what's going to happen to the banks AND their homes. A lot of these guys use or used their homes as banks for cash flow issues over the years, those LOC's you guys were talking about. Scary stuff.

Obama and Harry Reid now say they want to end the filibuster of 60 votes in the Senate.

Well, Obama liked it when he was in the minority of the Senate.

It is a double-edged sword.

I suppose that is a new issue for this year.

I wonder if they need 60 votes to change the 60 vote rule, or whether they are going to try to do it at the beginning of the Congress - when they adopt the rules. There is a question out there whether the 60 vote rule can be changed that way.

When the democrats were blocking Bush's Judges, they liked the rule - and historically the democrats have used the filibuster far more than the Republicans.

However, this is a double-edges sword.

I personally prefer the check-and-balance which ends up on both parties - the miniority should have more powers.

Just saw O on daily show. It's good to see him not relying on traditional journalists that are so smug and arrogant they usually are tripping over themselves to act like complete jerks to make a big headline.

Excuse me--I'm not connecting the dots. Somehow the collateral put up on a LOC somehow makes Bank of America a donor to the Democrats? Does that make any sense to you, because it doesn't to me.

First, lines of credit are often (but not always) unsecured. What is the history of the political parties getting unsecured LOC's?

Second, if the bank wanted the donor list as collateral (a strange idea to me), how could one even put a value on the list to the bank. It only has value to the Democratic party, doesn't it? Unless the idea is that it's not financial collateral. Even that doesn't make sense, the list exists in computers. If the bank had a copy, so did the DNC.

I signed a refi for an investment property today and the officer told me they are getting no business at all, new mortgages or refis past the underwriters from borrowers with FICA scores below 700.

Downward mobility exists everywhere, always has, always will. The great American experiment with a middle class, anyone who worked hard and lived right could have access to upward mobility, that is what is going by the boards. People with money will be just fine (I can't believe the loan I just got, it is not like free money, it is free money - but since I know there is no such thing, someone has to be paying for me to borrow money at these rates...) but people who got upside down, they are all sol. I can't see them getting right, because not only is there not going to be a boom anytime soon, no one is speculating because the other shoe might drop. All the retail players are in large quantities of cash. What the heck would I invest it in, now that I know, the longer I wait, the cheaper stuff will get.

SolarEnergy, what a ray of light shining all the way back to the Bat Caves and Belfreys...RUK is a well-known Serial Seminar (SS) toaster poaster from the Saul Alinsky/Noam Chomsky Seminary of disruptive forum assault that trains radical religious bottom of the rotten apple barrel soldiers of mis-fortune. He has been invited to join the human race, but steadfastly insists on hanging around in the shadows of the Progressively Progressive sliders down the slippery slope towards the brink and over into liberal failure Purgatory...

The folks complaining about her expressing her free speech rights are the same ones who were cheering on all the Tea Partiers last year while they were disrupting the town halls. You can't have it both ways.

A few people here act like she deserved it, or she's somehow lucky the guy stepped on her because now she's famous, uh NO. She was assaulted and groped, in case you missed that part, because she wanted to ask the candidate a question and because she supports his opponent. Classy of y'all.
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This assault is just the latest followon to the discussion we had on this blog last week. The idea was posed that liberals take to the streets and just ask for the violence that occurs. The example used was the shootings at Kent State.

The state of our politics is that regular folks now feel empowered to assault each other over speech. And then, they blame to protester for inciting violence.

It's just as simple as that. Vigilante action is now acceptable if you don't like what someone says. Maybe it's always been so, but it seems like it was back in the 60's and 70's when this last occurred in large scale.

I remember all the calls and ads during the big subprime push. We figured it out pretty quickly but others weren't so lucky. We had one rental property free and clear and our home down to about $30k and they would not leave us alone. In 2005 we decided to build our own warehouse and took out a LOC on our home, maxed at 100k. When we were at the bank applying the head gal in charge of loans said, but you could borrow a million dollars, why do you only want $100k. Unbelievable.

@12Bar: "The state of our politics is that regular folks now feel empowered to assault each other over speech. And then, they blame to protester for inciting violence."

Well, I hope not. Certainly, I think everybody can take it down a notch, most days. ;)

But hopefully the Rand Paul supporters assaulting a peaceable protestors, and whatever other examples we can find from this cycle, are the exceptions. In a large population, you're always going to have outliers. But they remain outliers only so long as we don't justify their behavior, or justify like retaliation--in essence, demanding an eye for an eye. It seems like justice is being done in this case (if not as much by the Paul campaign), but it presents an opportunity for pundits and the media and politicians to urge everybody to step back and chill.

GREEN LEMON AWARD from the soldiers of misfortune (SS) school of 'can't fool 'em all the time, but sure work hard at that some of the time'...goes to 12Bar's...you know you deserve it too...no 'Speach' please, the 'Freedom of' was fired from P(BS)\N(P)R by Vivian Schiller last week...

Yes, even today, the nice lady at the signing couldn't believe I wasn't pulling cash in the transaction. She saw that I could have and asked me why I didn't. I said if I got cash from this, I could earn some fraction in a bank account or buy more property and that I just don't think houses are going to be more expensive next year.

She knew what I was saying and that was that. Seriously, I have bought a bunch of old rugs from central Asia (the idea is that they will never be made like that any more ever and some day people will realize them to be the art treasures they are), some orange sapphires (I heard the Chinese think they are big medicine), but apart from bric a brac, I can't think of anything to buy that will be worth more in a few years.

It seems like justice is being done in this case (if not as much by the Paul campaign), but it presents an opportunity for pundits and the media and politicians to urge everybody to step back and chill.
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@Kevin,

Thanks for this. Actually, I don't find fault with the Paul campaign. I don't think they're behind it, condone it, or want to have anything to do with it.

What is disturbing to me personally, is the attitude of many on THIS board who are condoning it, justifying it, minimizing it and attacking the woman. If this woman's neck had been broken, which easily could have happened had she been older, or the foot guy leaned harder, or stepped down on her again, she could easily have died. Breaks that high in the neck are often fatal.

I'm quite disappointed in our fellow posters who condoned it. I expected more of them.

The big banks are holding the foreclosures off the market - to try to firm up the real estate market.

They want to release the houses slowly in order to get the best prices for themselves.

The problem is exactly what you said - who would want to buy when the banks are actually transferring their downside to you???

Clearly, they have now tried to monopolize the sales of houses - its monoposony - but the actions of a few actors in the market make up an effort to get better prices for themselves.

In addition, everytime a house is transacted at an inflated price - there is a risk attached to that mortgage. The big banks are trying to transfer that risk to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

So the big banks are trying to transfer the risk of the guarantees on the mortgages to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - one at a time.

It's a mess.

The houses have to clear out - the real estate market has to find its bottom before any recovery can take place. Otherwise we are needlessly delaying the recovery.

In addition, the dollar is being inflated - that is related to this mess. If the Feds inflate the dollar, the real value of the housing prices fall by the amount of the inflation.

That might be complex, however it clears it out.

That is a few of the reason I say the economy might be better off without the big banks - if they go bankrupt - the Feds step into their positions - clear out the messes. Break up the big banks and make them operate in pieces which are not too big too fail.

Yes I do - please re-read what I wrote - I was referring specifically to the conduct of the big banks over the past two years.

Even though they do not actually hold the mortgages, they apparently are controlling the foreclosure process by being in charge of the servicing units, MERS and the other entities which have been foreclosing (legally or extra-legally, whichever may be the case.)

It gets worse. Many, many people are living in houses they not only don't own, they have learned they don't even have to make partial payments. The were foreclosed, but then...nothing happened.

Eviction is high trauma for a neighborhood.

So quietly, people learn. They live in the house and keep it up. If they don't, of course they will be evicted, but if they do and maintain a good will "we are still trying to get a job" or whatever communication with the bank, they are allowed to stay...this is happening everywhere. It makes the neighborhood look more affluent than it is.

In this way, the market does not have to absorb whole blocks of houses For Sale with no buyers (remember, FICA over 700 or no one will talk to you). The market tries not to acknowledge reality. When this happens, it is called a distortion, but its consequences are severe.

"What is disturbing to me personally, is the attitude of many on THIS board who are condoning it, justifying it, minimizing it and attacking the woman. If this woman's neck had been broken, which easily could have happened had she been older, or the foot guy leaned harder, or stepped down on her again, she could easily have died. Breaks that high in the neck are often fatal."

Yeah, there is absolutely ZERO excuse for stomping on someone's neck. Whoever did it shouldn't be getting press. He should be put in jail. I don't carae if the person was holding a flashing MoveOn sign. You don't do that. I don't know who supported this, but obviously despicable people.

As for Paul, he had a pretty harsh condemnation of the assaulter.

"The Paul for Senate campaign is extremely disappointed in, and condemns the actions of a supporter last night outside the KET debate. Whatever the perceived provocation, any level of aggression or violence is deplorable, and will not be tolerated by our campaign. The Paul campaign has disassociated itself from the volunteer who took part in this incident, and once again urges all activists -- on both sides -- to remember that their political passions should never manifest themselves in physical altercations of any kind."

So supporting the attack might get some Sarah Palin winks, but wins you no friends among the Paul Campaign.

Demand was artifically inflated by the easy credit you are talking about.

Now, lower demand is being artifically created by higher credit requirements.

___________________________

I don't know if the banks are as kind as you are saying. I believe when they want to foreclose, they do.

The people own their houses. It is the mortgages which no one is sure about.

Mortgages have been sold through several entities without the proper paperwork. It is a question whether the Courts in each State will end up waiving the traditional paperwork requirements entrenched in 300 years of real estate law.

When it comes to the mortgage portfolio, there is question there as well.

If the mortgages were not place in the portfolios correctly, the fall-back will be that the big banks still own those mortgages - and the portfolios have a claim, fraud or lack of delivery - which can be enforced against the banks.

One can imagine the situation if suddenly the banks found out that they owned ALL the bad mortgages - and the portfolios had a claims against the banks for the original amounts of those mortgages.

That appears to be the case. A situation of the fraudsters defrauding themselves.

It would be poetic justice. And the Courts just might arrive at that conclusion, if not for any other reason than it would be the just result.

Even though they do not actually hold the mortgages, they apparently are controlling the foreclosure process by being in charge of the servicing units, MERS and the other entities which have been foreclosing (legally or extra-legally, whichever may be the case.)
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Why do you say this has been occurring in the last two years only? There's nothing new here, is there? The banks service the loans. Right. That's what they do in addition to originate loans.

Beware of what you pray for. As much as the banks have created their own Frankenstein, no one, and I mean NO ONE, benefits if the entire banking industry goes down the tubes. If you think the real estate market is not functioning well now, try it with no source of mortgages. No originators, no intermediaries, no securitization. That means no mortgages.

Instead of blowing up the entire financial sector because "what the hey", maybe we should try to get it functioning again.

Our banking/real estate debacle is not just about questionable values, toxic assets and so on...it is about whether anyone can tell who owns what.
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This is the real risk. If people lose faith in the title of real property (a system that evolved over hundreds of years), we all lose.

I'm going to predict that Congress &/or the states will ride to the rescue and "cure" the document deficiencies for the good of us all. They realize that, other than the desire to punish the originators and intermediaries, nothing good comes out of losing confidence in clear title.

I won't like it, but I'd hate the alternative.

If we don't reregulate the securitization process, we are crazy. This will happen again and again, until we standardize securitization so that the risks can be understood and correctly priced. Gawd save us from ourselves.

shrink2, if the wife and I have nearly perfect credit (over 800 scores), own a condo we want to refi, but bought it with no money down (paying on it for 3.5 years), how can we get anyone to do it? No one seems to care about our credit scores. Our place would probably sell for a little below what we paid, but not much. We have steady income and are not a risk.

I'm not shrink, so excuse me for butting in. I *think* that the only part of the mortgage business that is working is the Fannie/Freddie part, which requires certain underwriting standards. It used to be 80% loan to value. Perhaps that is the problem. I'm hearing there is little private money available.

Heh, heh, we are crazy. All functional societies are experiments in socialism. The Knights of the Round Table were socialists. Collective effort for the greater good is what makes us human. If we lose confidence in that clear title, we are done for.

Suddenly, you will read about it in the news soon, title insurance, that frikin waste of money that used to burden your real estate transactions, is going to become a Big Deal.

Already, there are whole neighborhoods that can not get title insurance. You know what that means.

Every originator you talk to is going to sell your mortgage to Freddie or Fannie. So they have to meet their underwriting standards. Back in bubble days, there was lots of private money around that would do all sorts of "interesting" deals--no docs, no principal, etc.

Have you talked to a mortgage broker and explored all the possibilities? They know what kind of deals they can place and should just tell you what you need to do. I'm sure your good FICO is important, but probably isn't enough.

"Heh, heh, we are crazy. All functional societies are experiments in socialism. The Knights of the Round Table were socialists. Collective effort for the greater good is what makes us human. If we lose confidence in that clear title, we are done for."

Yeah, anytime someone brings up Obama's redistrubutionist policies, I ask that person to name a politician who proposes to eliminate all taxes and government spending. Even Reagan was redistributionist.

BGinCHI, at that score it may have nothing to do with you, it has to do with the property and its valuation questions and the business model of the people you are talking to relative to that neighborhood. Just guessing.

I'm already reading that the title insurors are requiring indemnification from the originators if there is a defect that isn't in the public records.

This can't go on for long. The whole system only works when clear title is easily achievable. There have always been title-impaired properties, but everyone knew what the deal was, it was a small sector of the market, and the prices reflected it.

But wait, now people buying property, if you don't already own more than what the property you want to buy is worth? Good luck with that.

But worse. Sure the piece of property you bought in the last decade is yours? Well, are you? Because if some title insurance company has decided your place is in the wrong place, it does not matter, you can't sell it.

This is what happens when the speed and volume of mortgages reached mach 2, the whole system broke down, except for the fees being generated by all the players in the mortgage chain. Everyone was gaming everyone else, and now all the games are coming home to roost.

We HAVE to reregulate the whole mortgage process. No subprimes should be securitized. Only conforming loans, with intact underwriting, no funny business, should be securitized. The rating agencies should not be left to plop AAA ratings. Investors have to have enough detailed loan information, and presented in a standardized way, to correctly price the credit risk.

If we leave this in the hands of the banks, without regulation, this will happen again.

Real estate is subject to bubbles because it can't be effectively shorted, like equities.

The issues are out there, but it isn't as grave as you guys are saying.

The title insurance issue is only for properties which have been forclosed on recently.

All the other titles are good.

There are other questions.

The questions are who owns the mortgages, not the titles. And who owns the liens on those mortgages. It is possible that the mortgage notes have been transferred, but not the liens.

It might get complicated.

For centuries, a system of recorded liens has been developed. Any person could go to the county courthouse and review the liens - that was good for many reasons. Now the banks have decided to go around that system. First, they may have left themselves open because their liens have not been recorded as they always have.

That doesn't mean a bank can not come to Court with the paperwork for a lien that hasn't been recorded.

However, the banks might not have that paperwork in order. So not only has the lien not been recorded, their paperwork is not good. Some lawyers who may have been too clever apparently may have told the banks to shread the mortgage notes and the paperwork for the liens - and then rely on the laws for "lost paperwork" to re-draft paperwork if they ever needed it.

Well shredding document is a bit different from "losing it."

There are 50 State Court systems, and each one may have to rule on what they will accept as good paperwork. My guess is the banks have to win in almost all those States - or the losses in a few States will hit them hard.

Then the other issue of whether the portfolio investors actually own the bad mortgages is going to be the big one. My guess is the answer is no, the big banks will have to "take back" the bad mortgages.

That will cause the Feds to have to seize the big banks - and that will give the Feds a chance to re-make the system correctly.

The big banks failing is not a bad thing - it is an opportunity to clean up the balance sheets and get the whole system on a firm footing.

Right now all the big banks still have toxic assets with which they are trying to game the system.

That has to stop. The big banks failing will also give the Feds a chance to make firm rules which work and which create a sound economic system.

One reason you are so hard to talk to is how blithely you propose a complete collapse of the banking sector and nationalization by the government. Good God, man, do you have any sense of the seriousness of what you propose?

The bought them cheap, they slapped some AIG credit default swap on them or a Fannie Mae guarantee, then they put them into portfolios, convinced the rating agencies that they were wonderful - and all of a sudden the portfolios were selling at high prices like they were conforming mortgages.

No one cared that the AIG credit default swap was worthless,

And the credit agencies never really evaluated the strength of anything in the portfolios - they were sold with high ratings.

That is where the profit is/was.

Now, you are proposing a way to do the mortgage portfolios which is not very profitable. They don't want that on Wall Street.

Now, you are proposing a way to do the mortgage portfolios which is not very profitable. They don't want that on Wall Street.
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Yeah, tell me something I don't know. Maybe we shouldn't let them do whatever they want.

We have given the big banks 2 years to clean up their acts. They aren't lending to anyone. They won't take any risks. All they are doing is stuff that benefits only them, and cleans up the liabilities they have created with their own greed.

It is disgraceful. The big banks have ceased to be an asset to the economy. That's what you don't understand. They are weighing us down.

The Feds can step in, and run them while everything gets wound down and handled orderly.

Then the Feds can allow new smaller, streamlined entities to emerge - nothing "too big to fail" - and without the heavy weights of the toxic assets and bad balances sheets. And the Feds can clean up Wall Street that way. The big banks have proven they don't deserve the bailouts - they should have gone bust before. If you can't make your margin call, they come in after you right away. Their margins are getting called, and they don't have the money to make it. So they are out. Their rules have to get applied to them. Finally.

The big banks were basically skimming off the top of the mortgage portfolios.

Maybe if everything worked out fine, the portfolios would have yielded the returns which were promised.

But a great deal of money was taken off the top - and those losses were hidden from the very beginning.

In addition, the way the foreclosure rates were priced into the mortgage portfolios were highly suspect.

The banks did everything they could to keep the ball in the air. Remember the foreclousure crisis hit in 2006. They took 2 years to re-juggle everything before they let it all crash. Imagine what they were doing over those 2 years. Now they are trying a second set of games over the past 2 years.

They knew all of this was coming.

The mortgage portfolio lawsuits are coming. Obama and Congress will not have much control over that. It is with the Judges.

Obama is going to have to pick up the pieces though.

You guys wanted an inexperienced and unqualified guy in this office during this period. You thought it was such a good idea to put someone with little experience in this office.

That idea was wrong, really wrong. I'd like to hear some democrats start to admit that.

The market rates may have gone down, or remained the same. For the homeowner to get qualified for lower rates, there are certain prerequisites but I would recommend you search online for "123 Mortgage Refinance" before you decide because they can find the 3% refinance rates.

@Brigade....You're not funny or snarky dude...simply disgusting. After a weekend's post where you claimed the only reason Tea Party folks would visit a "liberal" neighborhood was to get their knobs polished or their boots licked...you must love Rand Paul's goons...tonight you add...
"If that isn't enough, a liberal will come and wipe your butt."

Your mother must be very proud of raising such a class act. You are an uncouth bore!

Posted by: rukidding7 | October 27, 2010 10:58 PM
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Thank you. I try. Yes, my mother is very proud. Yours? The "knob"/"boots" comment must have really hit a raw nerve; you've mentioned it about fifty times now. Incidentally, the point isn't that the Teabaggers would FORCE the liberals to lick their boots, but that liberals are very good and very willing when it comes to bootlicking. You, too, evidently.

Just saw O on daily show. It's good to see him not relying on traditional journalists that are so smug and arrogant they usually are tripping over themselves to act like complete jerks to make a big headline.

shrink2 wrote,
"We know ChrisFox is an idiot to think he owns property in Viet Nam. Some day someone can produce a piece of paper that makes his piece of paper meaningless and he can go away or else."
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LOL. And poor Noacoler isn't even here to defend himself. We tried to tell him.

Some of the relationships can be complicated. Merrill Lynch, a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America, holds a 34.1 percent interest in the giant hedge fund manager BlackRock. The hedge fund, along with the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and others, sent a letter this month to Bank of America seeking a repurchase of mortgages it said were faulty.

Some of the relationships can be complicated. Merrill Lynch, a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America, holds a 34.1 percent interest in the giant hedge fund manager BlackRock. The hedge fund, along with the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and others, sent a letter this month to Bank of America seeking a repurchase of mortgages it said were faulty.

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OK - so that is one lawsuit seeking a remedy to the paperwork problems between the mortgage portfolios and the big banks.

I would guess that one line of arguement in that suit would be that the mortgage portfolio never took actual ownership of the mortgages, thus leaving the bad mortgages with the banks.

If the big banks drag their feet on these lawsuits as the article indicates, it will further drag out the economic recovery.

"Just saw O on daily show. It's good to see him not relying on traditional journalists that are so smug and arrogant they usually are tripping over themselves to act like complete jerks to make a big headline.

Posted by: mikefromArlington | October 27, 2010 11:37 PM"

The same people who trash Fox treat a comedy show as real journalism. But I can't blame O for making the View and John Stewart his "media" outlets of choice these days. Given the disastrous state of affairs over which he presides, he is smart to stay as far from actual journalists as possible and confine himself to the entertainment shows his base treats as news.

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