Snakes said:
The vertical focus is part of what makes the map design richer, though. The scenic view is far more interesting with its ups and downs, the gameplay is altered significantly (there are numerous monsters that have their mechanics altered significantly by height differences), the way a level can unfold is increased by a large portion.

What's more, Doom 2's more open deisgn necessitates a vertical thought process. Can you imagine a map the size of industrial zone with a 256-and-less height setting? It'd be incredibly redundant to look at and play. What's more, Doom 2's new monsters were all seemingly designed with a more open layout in mind. I've said it before - put an arachnotron in a map like E2M6 and it's the dullest fight you'll experience. At a distance and with room to roam, though, it becomes an interesting foe.

The fact of the matter is Doom 2 has far more variety than Doom in every aspect. Are these ideas perfectly executed? No, but I'd rather play a game with 16 maps that have distinct ideas behind them than 16 maps with fairly repetitive ones (referring to E2 and E3 on that).

Distinction is good, of course-- but in good doses.
Doom 2 seems to hop from gimmick to gimmick, in a sense. I suppose the most recognizable to be infighting bosses, super hordes, and big-ass traps.
For general variance, say we have a scale of variety, 1 - 10.
1 being no variety.
10 being variety McGee.

Doom 1 had episodes that were broken up into 9 level chunks.
Doom 2 is 32 continuous levels.

The biggest reason I feel that doom 2s maps were more bland is that 32 levels in a continuous flow puts a lot more pressure on the designers and spread things very thinly. Had Doom 2 been split up into episodes there would have been more secret levels, more bosses, and more specialized loading screens with unique art. Each of the episodes would have likely been more focused on a theme as well as making sure every map followed the rules such as proper exit rooms more closely.

TNT is my favorite of the official doom 2 IWADS due to the fact that the levels held up to a quality more comparable to doom 1 overall. I do remember getting mad at Tom for putting a Cyberdemon on the first level in coop though lol.

edit: With that said I do not agree that it was a terrible game. Doom 1 was just more professional about how the maps and environments were crafted.

I'm really sorry to trot out the obsession once again, but I enjoy playing through some of the Doom 2 maps on the PSX. I will maintain forever that we got all the best maps (unfortunately we got The Citadel, as well, unnh!).

The Ultimate Doom element of PSX Doom is still my favourite, though. The maps tend to be less complex and more fun and Ultimate Doom actually feels like it is building towards something, with the maps getting creepier and more hellish as you go. The final run of maps in PSX Ultimate Doom are just amazing.

Doom 2 (any version), to me, lacks a clear sense of progression. The hell theme isn't as strongly used and it feels like a step in the wrong direction to set the game largely on Earth after we've already battled across lost colonies and the landscapes of hell. The final maps are bigger and tougher - and in the case of the Spirit World, just plain weird - but they are just like the other maps, there's no feeling of "Wow, I'm almost there!"

That said, it also brought us some incredible new enemies and far better opportunities for modding. I would far rather play a custom-made Doom 2 map than one for Ultimate Doom, and the idea of an Ultimate Doom megawad seems a bit... boring. No, more like a chore. All those Barons and Cacodemons and Lost Souls.

Burktross said:
TnT and Plutonia are the same thing as Doom 2.
Except Plutonia has pretty waterfall textures.

Ok, that's true. TNT has some awesome music though, and the new animated textures are definitely nifty. And hey, the maps are good fun even if they aren't revolutionary - Just giving credit where it's due!

dew said:
I'm sure the frenetic, more hypnotic pace of Doom DM is a very important part of why it survived the dawn of Quake DM to this day.

You truly understand Doom(2) Deathmatch... It literally gave me goosebumps to see that. Shake my fucking hand man. So many players of all different games do not grasp what I see as an undying appeal. I genuinely believe as long as there is an opponent, I will enjoy D2 deathmatch til the day I die.

doomguy93 said:
Doom 2 should have been split up into episodes just like Doom 1 was. I'm not so keen on the 32 continuous levels aspect. 9 levels per episode would have done fine in my opinion.

I always thought that would have been cool, but it doesn't matter much to me one way or the other. I thought it was weird that the story texts come at map07 and map12, so close to one another.

MajorRawne said:
the idea of an Ultimate Doom megawad seems a bit... boring. No, more like a chore. All those Barons and Cacodemons and Lost Souls.

Yeah, it gets repetitive very, very fast..

The new enemies and the SSG truly add more to the game than most people on this thread seem to realize. SSG = Better deathmatches and more opportunities with single player mapping - that's all there is to it.

It's interesting how peoples' tastes vary. To me, The Pit is one of the worst maps in Doom2 and is so awful (IMO) that when I reach it, it's often the reason for me quitting. (I think I may have said pretty much that already in the thread - I forget.)

Enjay said:
It's interesting how peoples' tastes vary. To me, The Pit is one of the worst maps in Doom2 and is so awful (IMO) that when I reach it, it's often the reason for me quitting.

same here. The only things I like about the bit is the yellow key room and the rocket launcher trap. Everytime I get to that map in like "this is the part where doom 2 gets boring," particularly after enduring tricks and traps immediately before. If I can remind myself that refueling base is next I might stick it out. But otherwise its a boring ugly map to me.

I'm also very fond of The Pit (Refueling Base as well, in fact), I would agree that it's one of the best maps in the game. Most of the maps in the IWAD that I don't care for seem to be by American McGee, particularly map 22.

The only map I haven't actually played in years and years due to disinterest is actually Dead Simple, though, heh.

Ugh, The Pit. I used to find it boring and frustrating to play, especially when you're running through the final areas hitting switches.

When you watch it being played it doesn't seem that bad, even if there is a lot of wandering about the same rooms - we don't need to understand the 3D space of any level THAT much. It's a violent map and it is pretty distinctive. Maybe I'll play it again and see if the magic happens.

Refuelling Base... oh yes, that's one of the best co-op slaughtermaps in the game. One person goes into the room with all the zombies, the other goes through the room where walls open up to disgorge Pain Elementals and Cacodemons.

I fucking love MAP10 Refueling Base. I just wish there was a Super Shotgun in that level. That is just my only complaint about it. I'm a techbase type of guy and I just don't care much for the hellish themed Doom 2 maps to be quite honest.

always preferred Doom 1's atmosphere and music. The SSG seems to suit power players, death-matchers and speed-run dudes of which I am none of the above, lol, so its omnipresence in Doom 2 community wads leaves me bemused at times, although I realize it was basically the catalyst for people becoming Good At Doom.

two things I really like about Doom 2: the new mid-tier monsters and the asymmetrical, cliff-packed John Romero maps. GOTCHA and the Living End feel like the best maps in the game to me.

Doom 2 has kind of a spirit of anarchy in the level design that doesn't always go anywhere, but is at least interesting to look back at. without Doom 2, there would be no megawads. and i'm not just saying that because of the new monsters or the SSG - the variety and design of the maps has obviously really heavily inspired a lot of what's come after, as far as the structure of megawads. and i think there's a reason why so many people stick to that format! i think it's kind of allowed players to see how creative a person could be with Doom maps, rather than see the game as this self-contained atmospheric thing like Doom 1. and, in that way, it was kind of empowering for designers.

i guess i also like some of the "concept maps" because they're allowing the designers to do something a bit more fun and playful with the player, but i'm a sucker for that kind of stuff i guess. i do prefer Doom 1 and think several of the Doom 2 maps are really half-baked, but i'm definitely glad D2 exists for the stuff in there that was interesting.

esselfortium said:
I stand by my claim that The Pit is one of the best IWAD maps. The abstract structures, odd transformations, and juxtapositions of areas make for a really surreal and atmospheric setting.

i used to hate The Pit so much but i might be inclined to agree with you now. Sandy Petersen is a really underrated map designer, and i think the unpolished-ness of his stuff makes a lot of people really miss what's interesting about his maps (even when they fall flat).

DOOM on UV is pretty easy. Granted, I know where the monsters are, but it's not that hard. DOOM 2 on UV is pretty tough, even after you grab the SSG. I didn't get far in DOOM 2, but I think - as I've stated previously - it's alright. Not as 'realistic' in design as DOOM 1 is, but hey. Why are we complaining about realism in DOOM? There's demons tromping around a military base riddled with almost random secret wall-doors.

"Oh no! The color brown! It burns!"

DOOM had a more complex plot than DOOM 2? I don't see complex written anywhere beyond "Doomguy shoot demons in base. Now Doomguy shoot demons in base and hell. Now Doomguy shoot demons in hell." Not much of a plot. (There is more to it than that [I think?], but that's what you get from the gameplay itself)