Can someone explain how it's at all reliable? I know there have been theories that Ariadne or Mal (assuming she was right that it was all just a dream) could have exploited his totem since they knew how it worked but it's more fundamental than that.

The way totems worked was by being special in real life. Arthur's dice are loaded so in the real world it always lands the same. Likewise Ariadne's bishop always falls the same way in real life. The reason totems have to be unique in real life is because (assuming how they work is still a secret) if one is put in someone's dream, that dreamer won't know how the totem works, thus defaulting to it's normal use. If Arthur is in someone's dream, his dice will act normally, alerting him to the fact that he's in a dream. This idiosyncrasy is the key to detecting what's real and what's not real.

But Cobb's works in the wrong way. In real life it's just a normal spinning top. So assuming Cobb is in someone's dream, his top won't be able to tell him anything since it would act like a normal top regardless (acting like a normal top being the way he supposedly knows he's in a dream).

First, is there any way to explain how it's actually useful and two, does this lend credence to the "it was all a dream" theory (which I think is the right interpretation)?

At 11/13/2012 11:25:32 AM, socialpinko wrote:Can someone explain how it's at all reliable? I know there have been theories that Ariadne or Mal (assuming she was right that it was all just a dream) could have exploited his totem since they knew how it worked but it's more fundamental than that.

The way totems worked was by being special in real life. Arthur's dice are loaded so in the real world it always lands the same. Likewise Ariadne's bishop always falls the same way in real life. The reason totems have to be unique in real life is because (assuming how they work is still a secret) if one is put in someone's dream, that dreamer won't know how the totem works, thus defaulting to it's normal use. If Arthur is in someone's dream, his dice will act normally, alerting him to the fact that he's in a dream. This idiosyncrasy is the key to detecting what's real and what's not real.

But Cobb's works in the wrong way. In real life it's just a normal spinning top. So assuming Cobb is in someone's dream, his top won't be able to tell him anything since it would act like a normal top regardless (acting like a normal top being the way he supposedly knows he's in a dream).

First, is there any way to explain how it's actually useful and two, does this lend credence to the "it was all a dream" theory (which I think is the right interpretation)?

You have a point from a technical standpoint. Another similar hole is in the way the "kicker" was supposed to work. When the introduce the kicker, you are "kicked" at one level up from the dream and that wakes you up from the dream one level below where you are at. However, when they are instigating their plan, the are kicking people at the same level that they are trying to wake them from. They also don't explain why it is necessary to kick people sequentially, rather than just kick them from the real world.

In any even, the point of the totem was to demonstrate Cobb's obsession. It's only real purpose in the movie was, at the end, to show that he had "let go" of his obsession. Contrary to what fans may have believed, it wasn't ever meant to be a "oohh... are we still in the dream?" According to Cameron, it was to demonstrate the Cobb no longer needed the totem, he had made peace.

Okay, I think you have the way Cobb's top works backwards. Whenever he's in a dream it spins and never falls (he explains this when he's talking to Ariadne about it). In real life, it spins and eventually stops like a normal top.

Also, now that I think about it, assuming that Kyoto was the reality, that the "it was all a dream" theory is bunk, as the top fell, indicating that Cobb wasn't in a dream. Of course he could've gone under another layer somewhere else, but I can't think of a place where that would happen.

At 11/13/2012 11:39:28 AM, draftermanIn any even, the point of the totem was to demonstrate Cobb's obsession. It's only real purpose in the movie was, at the end, to show that he had "let go" of his obsession. Contrary to what fans may have believed, it wasn't ever meant to be a "oohh... are we still in the dream?" According to Cameron, it was to demonstrate the Cobb no longer needed the totem, he had made peace.

Now that's an interesting thought. It makes sense when you put the obsession theory with some of the scenes when they were getting the chemist (when Cobb flipped out and was spinning the top in the bathroom).

At 11/13/2012 11:40:25 AM, Zaradi wrote:Okay, I think you have the way Cobb's top works backwards. Whenever he's in a dream it spins and never falls (he explains this when he's talking to Ariadne about it). In real life, it spins and eventually stops like a normal top.

Also, now that I think about it, assuming that Kyoto was the reality, that the "it was all a dream" theory is bunk, as the top fell, indicating that Cobb wasn't in a dream. Of course he could've gone under another layer somewhere else, but I can't think of a place where that would happen.

What's the arguments for it was all a dream?

At the end, when hes gonna see his kids, he spins the top. The issue is, in the last frame, the top MIGHT be falling, but is it? We don't know. So thats the issue.

At 11/13/2012 11:40:25 AM, Zaradi wrote:Okay, I think you have the way Cobb's top works backwards. Whenever he's in a dream it spins and never falls (he explains this when he's talking to Ariadne about it). In real life, it spins and eventually stops like a normal top.

Also, now that I think about it, assuming that Kyoto was the reality, that the "it was all a dream" theory is bunk, as the top fell, indicating that Cobb wasn't in a dream. Of course he could've gone under another layer somewhere else, but I can't think of a place where that would happen.

What's the arguments for it was all a dream?

At the end, when hes gonna see his kids, he spins the top. The issue is, in the last frame, the top MIGHT be falling, but is it? We don't know. So thats the issue.

That doesn't seem like an argument. It seems more like the original question.

-Throughout the film things play pretty much the same way in "reality" as they do in dreams. People just come out of nowhere inexplicably like the agents trying to get Cobb or Saito just randomly pulling up in his car (being extremely unlikely).

-In the scene where Cobb is first meeting Eames he just seems to magically pull out two stacks of chips at the cash-in window when it was confirmed in the previous scene that he had just lost all of his chips. This would be explained by a dream since Eaes is a forger.

-When Cobb supposedly finally reunited with his kids they've barely changed. While we know they're difference actors, they're wearing basically the same clothes and are almost indistinguishable from their past selves.

Actual arguments.

-We never have any way of actually confirming when reality comes into play. As shown above, Cobb's only confirmation is useless. Furthermore in the beginning when we move from Saito's secret apartment to the Kyoto train there's no difference in transition than there was when moving from Saito's mansion to his apartment. We as the audience have no totem, thus establishing a groundwork for skepticism.

-In dreams, the dreamers subconsciously import phrases they've heard others say. For instance, Fisher projects the numbers 589491 into various places (the fake number Eames gave him, the hotel room doors, the safe combination). Likewise, for Cobb we see various phrases and ideas popping in and out. Both Saito and Mal ask him to take a "leap of faith", when he sees his kid they tell him they're building a mansion on a cliff (reference to Saito's mansion in limbo).

=====Of course assuming the movie at least started in reality there's still a strong argument to be made for the ending still being part of another dream.

At 11/13/2012 11:40:25 AM, Zaradi wrote:Okay, I think you have the way Cobb's top works backwards. Whenever he's in a dream it spins and never falls (he explains this when he's talking to Ariadne about it). In real life, it spins and eventually stops like a normal top.

Also, now that I think about it, assuming that Kyoto was the reality, that the "it was all a dream" theory is bunk, as the top fell, indicating that Cobb wasn't in a dream. Of course he could've gone under another layer somewhere else, but I can't think of a place where that would happen.

What's the arguments for it was all a dream?

At the end, when hes gonna see his kids, he spins the top. The issue is, in the last frame, the top MIGHT be falling, but is it? We don't know. So thats the issue.

Not really. The top isn't reliable AT ALL. Both Mal and Ariadne know how it works. So he could be in Ariadne's dream or Mal could have been right all along and he could be in her dream. Furthermore we already know the top doesn't work as a totem since if he's in someone's dream it will just work as a normal top (the supposed confirmation). Totem's are supposed to be unique in the real world, not dreams.

The top is a red herring. You should be instead listening to what his kids are saying "We're building a house on a cliff" (or mansion, can't remember) is a subconscious call back to Saito's house in limbo. We see the same subconscious callbacks during dreams such as the series of numbers Fisher continuously projects into various places.

-Throughout the film things play pretty much the same way in "reality" as they do in dreams. People just come out of nowhere inexplicably like the agents trying to get Cobb or Saito just randomly pulling up in his car (being extremely unlikely).

-In the scene where Cobb is first meeting Eames he just seems to magically pull out two stacks of chips at the cash-in window when it was confirmed in the previous scene that he had just lost all of his chips. This would be explained by a dream since Eaes is a forger.

-When Cobb supposedly finally reunited with his kids they've barely changed. While we know they're difference actors, they're wearing basically the same clothes and are almost indistinguishable from their past selves.

Actual arguments.

-We never have any way of actually confirming when reality comes into play. As shown above, Cobb's only confirmation is useless. Furthermore in the beginning when we move from Saito's secret apartment to the Kyoto train there's no difference in transition than there was when moving from Saito's mansion to his apartment. We as the audience have no totem, thus establishing a groundwork for skepticism.

-In dreams, the dreamers subconsciously import phrases they've heard others say. For instance, Fisher projects the numbers 589491 into various places (the fake number Eames gave him, the hotel room doors, the safe combination). Likewise, for Cobb we see various phrases and ideas popping in and out. Both Saito and Mal ask him to take a "leap of faith", when he sees his kid they tell him they're building a mansion on a cliff (reference to Saito's mansion in limbo).

=====Of course assuming the movie at least started in reality there's still a strong argument to be made for the ending still being part of another dream.

I'll debate this. I just need to watch it again; haven't seen it since it came out.

"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

At 11/13/2012 11:40:25 AM, Zaradi wrote:Okay, I think you have the way Cobb's top works backwards. Whenever he's in a dream it spins and never falls (he explains this when he's talking to Ariadne about it). In real life, it spins and eventually stops like a normal top.

Also, now that I think about it, assuming that Kyoto was the reality, that the "it was all a dream" theory is bunk, as the top fell, indicating that Cobb wasn't in a dream. Of course he could've gone under another layer somewhere else, but I can't think of a place where that would happen.

That's social's point. The way the totems are supposed to work is that they normally behave in an abnormal way. This is so an outsider cannot reliably duplicate the behavior of the totem when putting them into a dream. This is why you're not supposed to tell other people how they work in the real-world.

So, if you are in a dream, and your totem is a creation of that artificial reality, then it will behave as you would expect it to normally, alerting you that you are in a dream because it is supposed to behave abnormally.

The problem is, Cobb's totem's in-dream behavior is the abnormal behavior and its real-world behavior is the normal behavior. If someone else recreates Cobb's totem, they're going to give him a totem that behaves normally, which should leave him to believe he is in the real world. Why would someone give Cobb a totem that spins forever?

At 11/13/2012 11:40:25 AM, Zaradi wrote:Okay, I think you have the way Cobb's top works backwards. Whenever he's in a dream it spins and never falls (he explains this when he's talking to Ariadne about it). In real life, it spins and eventually stops like a normal top.

Also, now that I think about it, assuming that Kyoto was the reality, that the "it was all a dream" theory is bunk, as the top fell, indicating that Cobb wasn't in a dream. Of course he could've gone under another layer somewhere else, but I can't think of a place where that would happen.

What's the arguments for it was all a dream?

At the end, when hes gonna see his kids, he spins the top. The issue is, in the last frame, the top MIGHT be falling, but is it? We don't know. So thats the issue.

The point is though, he spun it but then walked away.

Dream or not, Cobb no longer cared. He had made peace with his demons and his past and was ready to move on. It wasn't so much about whether it was going to fall or not that it was he walked away and never bothered to check.

The wise have eyes in their heads, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realizethat the same fate overtakes them both.
Then I said to myself,
"The fate of the fool will overtake me also.
What then do I gain by being wise?"
I said to myself, "This too is meaningless."
For the wise, like the fool, will not be long remembered;
the days have already come when both have been forgotten.
Like the fool, the wise too must die! - Ecclesiastes 2:14-16

I believe that Cobb's totem was actually his wedding ring. After Mal's death, in all the "reality" scenes, Cobb is not wearing his wedding ring. In all the dream sequences, he is.

Cobb adopted Mal's totem, so it's not really his. On the other hand, Mal is so important to his subconscious that his dream avatar will always wear the wedding ring. This is the trick; in the waking world, he would never wear it, but in the dream world he must because his subconscious can't imagine a representation of himself without it.

"And like the seasons you are also, and though in your winter you deny your spring: yet spring, reposing within you, smiles in her drowsiness and is not offended." - Khalil Gibran

At 11/13/2012 3:06:16 PM, TheRainKing wrote:I believe that Cobb's totem was actually his wedding ring. After Mal's death, in all the "reality" scenes, Cobb is not wearing his wedding ring. In all the dream sequences, he is.

Cobb adopted Mal's totem, so it's not really his. On the other hand, Mal is so important to his subconscious that his dream avatar will always wear the wedding ring. This is the trick; in the waking world, he would never wear it, but in the dream world he must because his subconscious can't imagine a representation of himself without it.

Interesting theory... I'll have to rewatch the movie for this.

The wise have eyes in their heads, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realizethat the same fate overtakes them both.
Then I said to myself,
"The fate of the fool will overtake me also.
What then do I gain by being wise?"
I said to myself, "This too is meaningless."
For the wise, like the fool, will not be long remembered;
the days have already come when both have been forgotten.
Like the fool, the wise too must die! - Ecclesiastes 2:14-16

-Throughout the film things play pretty much the same way in "reality" as they do in dreams. People just come out of nowhere inexplicably like the agents trying to get Cobb or Saito just randomly pulling up in his car (being extremely unlikely).

The movie gives a justification for both, since Cobb is being hunted down by the people he used to work for that he failed, and Saito was following him to make sure that his "investment" didn't end up dead.

-In the scene where Cobb is first meeting Eames he just seems to magically pull out two stacks of chips at the cash-in window when it was confirmed in the previous scene that he had just lost all of his chips. This would be explained by a dream since Eaes is a forger.

Eames still had chips whenever he went with Cobb. This was confirmed by Cobb taking a few of Eames chips and remarking at the terrible craftsmanship of them. They left immediately after that.

Moreover, Eames made his living in reality off of forgery. It wasn't a dream-world exclusive ability.

-When Cobb supposedly finally reunited with his kids they've barely changed. While we know they're difference actors, they're wearing basically the same clothes and are almost indistinguishable from their past selves.

The actual timeline of the movie couldn't have taken more than a few weeks. We don't have any accurate portrayal of what the kids looked like other than the actors themselves from when Cobb left the country (which would've been a while). If you were able to actually prove this, I'd say it'd be a compelling argument. But as it is now, I don't see how it can be proven within the contexts of the movie.

Actual arguments.

-We never have any way of actually confirming when reality comes into play. As shown above, Cobb's only confirmation is useless. Furthermore in the beginning when we move from Saito's secret apartment to the Kyoto train there's no difference in transition than there was when moving from Saito's mansion to his apartment. We as the audience have no totem, thus establishing a groundwork for skepticism.

Isn't this just the base question though? I mean, if we're debating whether or not it was really a dream, isn't saying that we don't know the entire purpose of the question?

-In dreams, the dreamers subconsciously import phrases they've heard others say. For instance, Fisher projects the numbers 589491 into various places (the fake number Eames gave him, the hotel room doors, the safe combination). Likewise, for Cobb we see various phrases and ideas popping in and out. Both Saito and Mal ask him to take a "leap of faith", when he sees his kid they tell him they're building a mansion on a cliff (reference to Saito's mansion in limbo).

Didn't Saito know about Cobb's background? It could've either been a shot in the dark or the directors going for some irony. I don't see how this proves anything.

=====Of course assuming the movie at least started in reality there's still a strong argument to be made for the ending still being part of another dream.

At 11/13/2012 3:06:16 PM, TheRainKing wrote:I believe that Cobb's totem was actually his wedding ring. After Mal's death, in all the "reality" scenes, Cobb is not wearing his wedding ring. In all the dream sequences, he is.

Cobb adopted Mal's totem, so it's not really his. On the other hand, Mal is so important to his subconscious that his dream avatar will always wear the wedding ring. This is the trick; in the waking world, he would never wear it, but in the dream world he must because his subconscious can't imagine a representation of himself without it.

-Throughout the film things play pretty much the same way in "reality" as they do in dreams. People just come out of nowhere inexplicably like the agents trying to get Cobb or Saito just randomly pulling up in his car (being extremely unlikely).

The movie gives a justification for both, since Cobb is being hunted down by the people he used to work for that he failed, and Saito was following him to make sure that his "investment" didn't end up dead.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have been there at all, but that the times that they came out were seemingly inexplicable. For instance, Cobb runs around the city only to come out of some random alley where Saito just happened to be. That agents were looking for him or that Saito was keeping an eye on him is not the inexplicable part I'm bringing up. It's the fact that that kind of thing doesn't just happen i.e., even if Saito were watching him there's no way he could jump in his car when Cobb starts the chase and just hope to pull up just where it ends.

-In the scene where Cobb is first meeting Eames he just seems to magically pull out two stacks of chips at the cash-in window when it was confirmed in the previous scene that he had just lost all of his chips. This would be explained by a dream since Eaes is a forger.

Eames still had chips whenever he went with Cobb. This was confirmed by Cobb taking a few of Eames chips and remarking at the terrible craftsmanship of them. They left immediately after that.

Moreover, Eames made his living in reality off of forgery. It wasn't a dream-world exclusive ability.

You see him lose his last two chips in the seen prior to him turning in his chips. Obviously it's possible he just had them laying around in his pocket the entire time but the scene draws attention to him being out of chips, Eames telling Cobb he'll have to buy the round and all that.

-When Cobb supposedly finally reunited with his kids they've barely changed. While we know they're difference actors, they're wearing basically the same clothes and are almost indistinguishable from their past selves.

The actual timeline of the movie couldn't have taken more than a few weeks. We don't have any accurate portrayal of what the kids looked like other than the actors themselves from when Cobb left the country (which would've been a while). If you were able to actually prove this, I'd say it'd be a compelling argument. But as it is now, I don't see how it can be proven within the contexts of the movie.

Actual arguments.

-We never have any way of actually confirming when reality comes into play. As shown above, Cobb's only confirmation is useless. Furthermore in the beginning when we move from Saito's secret apartment to the Kyoto train there's no difference in transition than there was when moving from Saito's mansion to his apartment. We as the audience have no totem, thus establishing a groundwork for skepticism.

Isn't this just the base question though? I mean, if we're debating whether or not it was really a dream, isn't saying that we don't know the entire purpose of the question?

It's setting up a groundwork. We see in movies there's usually some sort of tone shift or at least some confirmation when someone wakes up from a dream that they've actually woken up. You notice how in Tv shows when someone thinks they've woken up only to realize they're just in another dream you can always tell?

-In dreams, the dreamers subconsciously import phrases they've heard others say. For instance, Fisher projects the numbers 589491 into various places (the fake number Eames gave him, the hotel room doors, the safe combination). Likewise, for Cobb we see various phrases and ideas popping in and out. Both Saito and Mal ask him to take a "leap of faith", when he sees his kid they tell him they're building a mansion on a cliff (reference to Saito's mansion in limbo).

Didn't Saito know about Cobb's background? It could've either been a shot in the dark or the directors going for some irony. I don't see how this proves anything.

How would Saito researching Cobb's background make him pull out the "leap of faith" comment? Did he just happen to overhear Mal saying it while they were still in limbo? Furthermore how can you not see that it actually does prove something. It's a hint and a good one at that. The entire concept of inception/extraction has to do with the subconscious and what it does in the dream world, that is, filling it. You don't think it's just a bit interesting that his kids make a reference to Saito's limbo that basically no one ever notices because they're too busy focusing on the spinning top on the table?

I'll debate this. I just need to watch it again; haven't seen it since it came out.

#oh_shit_it's_on_now_motherfucker

#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

I saw yer FB post calm down. I might believe it but I'd have to see every scene where they're allegedly not dreaming to confirm. If you could post screenshots of each scene and show specifically that he's not wearing the ring then that would def be some hard evidence in your favor.

: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.

: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.

At 2/26/2013 9:04:37 AM, Noumena wrote:Gawd I kind of want to debate this now. Maikuru, Zaradi where you at?

Resolution?

I'm thinking something like "It's more likely that Cobb was dreaming at the end of Inception rather than [X theory]".

: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.