No Meat And No Wine

Considering Colossians Chapter 2:16, do denominations such as, seven-day Baptist, seven-day adventist or people who insist that you cannot eat meat or drink wine at communion have any credibility in their positions and condemnations of others?

Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath. ---micha9344 on 1/27/ What exactly is your point here?

Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.

Tell me on which day of the week these days will fall:Exodus 12:16 And in the first day an holy convocation,Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly,

Genesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. Numbers 29:7 And ye shall have on the tenth [day] of this seventh month an holy convocation, Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.

Leviticus 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD

eightth day represents not only the day Christ rose from the dead, but the New Creation.-kathr4453 on 1/26/11 My Bible KJV says he rose the THIRD DAY: Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the THIRD DAY, and shewed him openly, Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the THIRD DAY:

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the THIRD DAY he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the THIRD DAY according to the scriptures:

Matthew 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in THREE DAYS

Francis, you asked the question "Is abraham not also the father of ismael his first born?Why is isaac his only begotten?"Ismael was the first born of Abraham but he was not of the promise that is why he was not considered "begotten"When speaking of Jesus "only begotten Son" refers to Jesus the only One of the promised Seed. The thought is clearly that Christ is the Begotten of God in the sense that no other is of the Promise. The same holds true to Isaac who was not literally the only begotten of Abraham but was the only begotten of Abraham in the sense that he was the Promised seed.

Rom 4:9-11 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised, that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Circumcision, a sign?...a seal of the righteousness of faith?...not because of disbelief?Your words condemn you francis.

Gal 4:22-23 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. francis, you seem to be casting alot of doubt on what scripture says...it reminds me of a verse...Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.Jam 2:23a And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness...Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and he counted it to him for righteousness.Gen 17:23 And Abraham...circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment, that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

--micha9344If abraham believed God, 1:he would not have taken hagar.2: He would not have laughted3: he would not have pleased forishael to be the promised sonHebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

Is abraham not also the father of ismael his first born?Why is isaac his only begotten?

Your statements are unfounded, francis. You have no scripture to support your theory that circumcision would not have happened if it weren't for Abraham taking Hagar. On the contrary, It was because Abraham believed God that he went unto her for the promised heir.God did not promise the seed through Sarah until after commanding circumcision. Even Ishmael was blessed and circumcised.Abraham believed all this up to the point of Sarah conceiving, which, again was after the circumcision command.Are you saying God changed His plans because of Abraham's actions? Aren't you the one that says God does not change, therefore His commands do not?Do not jump fences here....

LEEH thank you for making my point. God promised Abraham and sarah a child, they did not believe that god would give them a child, so sarah gave to abraham hagar.If they had waited and trusted in God for a son, then there would be no circumcision.Ismael is the son of unbelief, the son fo the stony heart.Isaac is the son of promise, the son of faith of the removal of the flesh.

Francis //If Abraham believed god1: he would not have taken Hagar2: he would not afterwards laugh at the promise3: he would not ask God to make Ishmael the promised son------------One of your friends, no longer on the forum, liked to quote Genesis 26:5

In other words, Abraham had a copy of the Mosaic laws long before the time of Moses, and that he even observed the Sabbath & the dietary laws - a statement full of assumptions and without any true basis in reality.

If Abraham had not had a child with Hagar, there wold be no circumcision.Circumcision is a covenant symboloizing the removal of the heardness ( forsjin) of the heart.Because Abraham had a child with Hagar, when god promised him a child with Sarah, then there is circumcision: A sign fo the removal of the flesh.

Let's try to make this clear...Abraham's disbelief is totally irrelevant to circumcision's relationship to the covenant.As far as Abraham, he did believe God was going to multiply him exceedingly, in which the circumcision was about, what he found hard to believe was that it was through Sarah, a son not born yet even though they were stricken in age.

francis...God gave the covenant to Abraham 'before' he questioned God, not 'because' he had disbelief.-Circumcision was a sign of the covenant, not a sign from the disbelief.-Just like Noah had three sons ,'then' God commanded him to build the ark.-We are convicted by the ten commandments,'then' Christ transforms us by the renewing of our mind and puts His royal law of liberty into our new hearts and the HS, who guides us into all truth.-The Sabbath day of rest was a sign of the covenant with Israel 'before' Christ, 'now' Christ establishes a good work 'in' us so that we no longer need to work 'for' our salvation, but rest in His work through us for His burden is light.Do you often read your Bible backwards?

Exodus 31:17 It (Sabbath) is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that ...the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the 7th day he rested and was refreshed.

And yet God spoke of ANOTHER DAY in contrast to the 7th day.

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

And that another day is the day of our salvation, for "we who have believed do enter into that rest(4:3),but they (Jews) could not enter into that rest: (thro they observed the weekly Sabbath - a symbol of the rest in Christ all believers would enter into).

So those who rest in Christ are the ones God is pleased with, not necessarily with those who like the Jews observed the OT Sabbath.

MICHAELGenesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee, Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

Genesis 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Genesis 17:23 every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.Gal 3:5-7 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Because abraham did not believe God, God gave to him a covenant sign of the promise messiah. that covenant sign being circumcision. Once the messiah has come, the promise has been kept. So the promise being fulfilled there is no more nned to look in faith to the comming messiah.You cannot say the same about the sabbath. the sabbath is a sign that God is creator. This is a covenant sign like the rrainbow made by God without blood. It cannot go away by the death of christ. The death of christ cannot fulfil the creative power of God.They are two very exclusive things.We are in a new covenant, and yet we still believe in the rainbow covenant. Why?

francis //What false teachers would have you to believe is 1: there are different standards and laws for Hebrews and non Hebrews.

You apparently NEVER read Acts 15 where the Jerusalem council decreed that Gentiles need not become circumcised or observe the laws of Moses.Acts 15.

So you really had TWO standards, ONE for the Jews who continued to practice circumcision (see Acts 16:3)and ONE for Gentiles of whom circumcision was NOT required.(see Gal. 2:3)

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, AND keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Francis, what does the Lord's Supper have to do with anything you have said? And what are you talking about when you say flesh? Who mentioned the Lord's Supper? Peter and Paul both quoted the exact words, God spoke about Israel and applied them to believers in Christ. They both taught that believing Jews and non-Jews, together are "the people of God" the elect of God, and "the Israel of God (1 Peter 2:9-10, "the elect of God are both Jews and Gentiles-Colossians 3:11,12, Galatians 6:16. which sees God having one faithful Israel throughout history composed of true Israelites and true Gentiles who believe in the Messiah. The are the "spiritual Israel." Has nothing to do with descendants of Abraham by blood.

What false teachers would have you to believe is 1: there are different standards and laws for hebrews and hone hebrews2: That after jesus died, or after pentecost the jewish apostles abandoned all their former beliefs and practices and started eating what they pleased.

MARK_V THIS IS THE LORDS SUPPER AS GIVEN IN THE BIBLE:1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

I am not sure where you find flesh in the lord's supper. If you have a reference text for flesh being used in the Lord's supper please post it.

Adventist want to continue under the law. "Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations."Paul was warning the Colossians not to allow the false teachers to cheat them of their temporal blessings or eternal reward by luring them into irrational mysticism, since the false teachers took great delight in it, their "humility" was actually pride, which God hates (Prov. 6:16,17).

francis//So yes seventhday adventist accept the jewish messiah, and all his jewish teaching, his jewish apostles and all his jewish prophets.

it is your right if you want to be viewed simply as another sect of Judaism howbeit, the Jerusalem council did not mandate that Gentile converts had to convert to Judaism to be genuine.

That much is very very clear not only from the Bible but from church history itself.

(15:28f) For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

The children of Hagar and Keturah are also of Abraham, yet not Jews.Are you sure you are grafted in to the correct tree?Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Francis-- Acts 10:9-15 Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter, kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord, for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Adventists like to believe themselves to be Jewish ---leej on 1/15/11 True we are seventhday adventist do see ourselves as Jews. Those of us who are blood relatives of abraham are jews by birth, and those of us who are not blood relatives of abraham are jews by the grafting into the good olive tree, and we adventist are partakest of the root and fatness of the good olive tree.Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone],

So being grafted into a religion whose God took the form a a jewish man, which started in JEWrusalem, and used exclusively the writings of JEWS, How can we adventist be other than a jew?

Romans 14:2-3 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.

1Co 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

Mk. 7:18f And he said to them, Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled? (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Adventists like to believe themselves to be Jewish and that is why they have a hang-up on certain foods.

John 6:51-56 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

THIS IS THE LORDS SUPPER AS GIVEN IN THE BIBLE:1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

I am not sure where you find flesh in the lord's supper. Ot how credible it wold be to serve flesh during the lord's supper.

MIMA if you have a reference text for flesh beingused in the Lord's supper please post it.

But the New Testament never calls the Seventh day a shadow of what JESUS did on earth. It is a memorial of Creation.

Hebrew does say it also points forward to our heavenly rest. So when I keep Sabbath I am resting from works and acknowledge that my works cannot save me. In it I look forward to heaven where we will still keep Sabbath. Isiah 66

1 Tim. 4:1- commanding to abstain from meats, WHICH GOD HATH CREATED TO BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 1 Timothy 4:5 For it is SANCTIFIED BY THE WORD OF GOD and prayer.

Adventist Bible Commentary says: The type of sabbath under consideration is shown by the phrase which are a shadow of things to come (Col. 2:17, KJV). The weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earths history. . . . Hence, the sabbath days Paul declares to be shadows pointing to Christ cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath designated by the fourth commandment, but must indicate the ceremonial rest days that reach their realization in Christ and His kingdom (vol. 7, pp. 205, 206). The difficulty with this explanation is that its circular, it rules out the Sabbath based on our own understanding of the Sabbath. That isnt good enough. If the New Testament declares the Sabbath to be a shadow, we must be open to that.

Once while walking down the street with a student in China I said, some people in America think that the Chinese eat dogs. To which the student replied, well if you get hungry enough you will eat dog too. Now I kept my eyes straight ahead and continued walking.(I do not believe in the saying, when in Rome to as the Romans do!!!

Joel Osten recently and this is posted so you can see the film pointed out that GOD directed humans not to eat food that was bad for you by labeling certain foods unclean. Food such as Vultures, dogs, Horses, cats all types of animals that are scavengers or bottom feeders.

He makes the point that food will not save you. But it can cut short your life.

Jerry - you ignore the basic principle of interpretation that scripture must be interpreted by scripture otherwise you will have contradictions with scripture that are fairly plain.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or new moon, or Sabbath days...

Romans 14:20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.

If you insist upon the view that Christians have been restricted as to certain foods based on Acts 15:20 (except weak in the faith) then you must twist the plain meaning of other scripture to get them to agree with what you wish to believe.

I think scripture is very clear that for the Christian there are no restrictions regarding what one may eat or drink. In fact those that advocate food restriction probably subscribe to what the Scripture condemns as a doctrine of demons.

1 Tim. 4:1-4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils,...forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations 21 Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle, 22 which all concern things which perish with the usingaccording to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

No, they don't have any credibility. But I'll bet they think they do. Communion is not about us or the elements. It's about Jesus and what He did for us. All the arguing about it just takes away from the real meaning. We are one with Him if it's wine or if it's grape juice. No meat?.. lCor 10:26-27 says that whatsoever is sold in the meat market,eat and whatsoever is set before you, eat.

it seems this comment is aimed at trodding down SDAs and it is unchristian dont you think? whatever the motive is, let me tell you this, if you want to question our credibility and our belief, I invite you to visit one of our churches near you and I guarantee you, they will welcome you with open arms and answer any question you may ask. Visit with them instead and learn of their belief. It is all of the bible.

I have known SDAs and have never been condemned by them. In fact, the positive outcomes of not using recreational drugs (including alcohol) and eating healthy are so convincing and credible that I think all Christians should live that way. OK, you can tar and feather me, but I'm with SDA. So are the facts and true science.

Read Daniel 1. Daniel and the Hebrew youth chose to eat vegetables and water instead of meat and wine and were proven much healthier. Our food prep has changed since OT days but there are still valid problems with unclean food. Yes, we eat what we are served not to offend but that does not give us license to eat anything we want just for the sake of freedom. Incidently, it has been proven that SDA vegetarians are among the healthiest people in the world. What a great witness.

Christians should look after their bodies as it is God's temple. I believe the way we care for it says a lot about who we are as Christians. We believe murder is wrong, so is suicide, but we commit murder and suicide by our lifestyles in not caring for our temples. HOw can we do the Lord's work well if we are unhealthy by our own choosing.

Did you mean "insist that you cannot drink wine at communion and cannot eat meat"? I did my wine comment. Here's my meat comment. SDA in general doesn't abstain from all meat, some are vegetarians. It's unclean meat they abstain from. Yes, we can eat all meat now. But some things to keep in mind. North Americans eat too much meat. Mediteranean diet has meat but in smaller portions. What we eat is just plain unhealthy. Vegetarian diet is much healthier than eating too much meat.

I'm Pentecostal - use grape juice never wine. So we're not credible? Never heard of eating meat at communion! There are good reasons for not using wine - alchohol is a drug. Some people become addicted at one taste of it. Others who are trying to quit may be tempted. That is entirely Christian - absolutely the responsible thing to do. I'm not 7th day, but, knowing their stand against drugs, they probably have the same view. This is not condemning others, it is the more compassionate thing to do.

1. We do not condem others for what they do or don' t do! 2. Communion does not serve meat! 3. Yes, we serve fresh grape juice at Communion.I believe our position to be sound and our condemnation nonexistant! P.