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But still, I personally would prefer to only have to bother with major signatures.

Why?

Quote:

From what I've read, it seems like more of a tradition thing.

1. No.2. Don't go by what you read. Go by what you hear and what you play. Understanding comes from experience. Otherwise all you have is intellectual knowledge from reading things, and that is not how music works.

But still, I personally would prefer to only have to bother with major signatures.

Why?

Quote:

From what I've read, it seems like more of a tradition thing.

1. No.2. Don't go by what you read. Go by what you hear and what you play. Understanding comes from experience. Otherwise all you have is intellectual knowledge from reading things, and that is not how music works.

Considering you can express any diatonic collection of notes(key) with a major signature, I fail to see the importance of expressing them in another way.

I'm not experienced, so maybe understanding will come in time

Originally Posted By: hreichgott

Originally Posted By: Punchslap

But still, I personally would prefer to only have to bother with major signatures.

You can limit yourself to playing music in major keys if you want to. There's plenty available. Seems a silly restriction to place on oneself though.

My point wasn't to restrict myself to play pieces that which have been written on paper with a minor key signature. I meant that I'll simply think of the given key as C major instead of A minor. Maybe I expressed myself weird....

Considering you can express any diatonic collection of notes(key) with a major signature, I fail to see the importance of expressing them in another way.

A "major" signature?

There are only 15 possible key signatures from seven flats to seven sharps, less than the number of letters in the alphabet, and each signifies just one major key or one minor key. A brief perusal of the score will show up any sharpened seventh suggesting the minor key and the harmonies should make it pretty clear which is being used.

If you're playing in three flats and the first few B's are naturals then you're probably in C minor, if the first accidentals are A naturals you've probably just moved from E flat major to the dominant B flat. If the first slew of accidentals chop and change from bar to bar it's probably just chromaticism.

And when you've lighted upon the key, at least until your theory has caught up, what difference does it make what key you're thinking of? Our notation system accommodates but seven letter names and it's a very practical thing to know which of those seven notes will default to the black keys and which will be white. Whether the piece is in major or minor has little immediate consequence.

I already figured out that you did not intend to restrict yourself to music in major keys, but rather relate to major key signatures in some ways. So in other words, if a piece is in A major, you will think of it as being in C major.

Music is sound within context, which gives it meaning. Right now you have intellectual facts gleaned from a lot of reading and study. On the basis of the facts that you learned, what you write makes sense. You've gone at it backwards, and you have to get at the other side of it. (Trying to bridge the gap in the next paragraph)

About major and minor keys: I don't know where your hearing is at presently. This is something that evolves. When you hear a piece of music, can you hear that it is major or minor? Ditto for when you play it (assuming you are at a playing stage). Does your ear get a sense of the Tonic - meaning the "home base note" that the music wants to settle on? These are essential things that give the music meaning and direction for the listener. As you become an experienced player, these are your orientation, and will also guide how you express the music.

Continuing with the thought: A piece in C major will settle on C as the Tonic, while a piece in A minor will settle on A - each revolves around the Tonic and your ear will sense it as home base. This alone is a good reason for not thinking of all music that has a key signature of no sharps or flats as being C major - with A minor merely being a modal deviation. Your orientation will suffer (home base).

Continuing again: The scales themselves are not what make a piece be in a major or minor key. Even the fact of the last note in the melody settling on the tonic - that alone does not give us this "A minor feel to the ear" or "C major feel". What DOES do so are chord progressions. The primary thing is the progression of I (IV) V I and even more strongly I (IV) V7 I. Other chords can and do dance around and come in between, but this is the heart of the matter. Music is movement; it moves toward the tonic. Our ear has an expectation to "land on the tonic" because of the way these chords interact. It's almost a chemistry: drop vinegar into milk and it curdles. Milk and vinegar themselves are just two separate things. The non-musician will get the effects of this movement. He won't know why he feels this "settling toward the Tonic" feeling - he just knows that "this is the last note and the music has ended" because it "feels right".

Continuing with the above thought: In C major, your I IV V7 I chords will be C major, F major, G7, C major. In A minor those chords will be A minor, D minor, E7 (the G in the signature is raised to G# which you will see in the music as an accidental), A minor. Note that V7-I which "brings you home to the tonic" in C major are G7-C; while the same thing in A minor are A7-Am. You lose all that if you try to think of the music modally, as you are trying to do, by "considering everything to only be major".

Previously I coined a crude metaphor about the circulatory system and the respiratory system intertwining to make our bodies work, since our hearts pump the oxygen when is fetched by the lungs. Music has intertwining systems that work together to have its effect, and the chord progression along with melody is one of these. If you think of everything as being in major, you lose the chord-part of it. That's just one aspect.

--- In your two hour commute, do you have any way of listening to things, and listening for things? When you are home again, try to include some exploration of what you hear as you practice piano.

Previously I mentioned a kind of core chord progression which moves music to its destination. This funny act brings the point home. Listen for the chords that the comedian plays over and over again while he rambles in the beginning. These are the same chords that he later names for the Canon in D. All of the songs that he whizzes through after that all have the same progression. It is at the heart of a great deal of music we hear.

This one is even better, because we have a cello that really brings out the bass notes of that same progression. The musicians digress to all kinds of other pieces in a more classical style, while that ubiquitous bass line drones on. It makes the point that this is what underlines so much music.

Considering you can express any diatonic collection of notes(key) with a major signature, I fail to see the importance of expressing them in another way.

A "major" signature?

There are only 15 possible key signatures from seven flats to seven sharps, less than the number of letters in the alphabet, and each signifies just one major key or one minor key. A brief perusal of the score will show up any sharpened seventh suggesting the minor key and the harmonies should make it pretty clear which is being used.

If you're playing in three flats and the first few B's are naturals then you're probably in C minor, if the first accidentals are A naturals you've probably just moved from E flat major to the dominant B flat. If the first slew of accidentals chop and change from bar to bar it's probably just chromaticism.

And when you've lighted upon the key, at least until your theory has caught up, what difference does it make what key you're thinking of? Our notation system accommodates but seven letter names and it's a very practical thing to know which of those seven notes will default to the black keys and which will be white. Whether the piece is in major or minor has little immediate consequence.

I didn't think about it when I wrote, but you're right. It doesn't really make much of a difference.

Originally Posted By: keystring

I already figured out that you did not intend to restrict yourself to music in major keys, but rather relate to major key signatures in some ways. So in other words, if a piece is in A major, you will think of it as being in C major.

Music is sound within context, which gives it meaning. Right now you have intellectual facts gleaned from a lot of reading and study. On the basis of the facts that you learned, what you write makes sense. You've gone at it backwards, and you have to get at the other side of it. (Trying to bridge the gap in the next paragraph)

About major and minor keys: I don't know where your hearing is at presently. This is something that evolves. When you hear a piece of music, can you hear that it is major or minor? Ditto for when you play it (assuming you are at a playing stage). Does your ear get a sense of the Tonic - meaning the "home base note" that the music wants to settle on? These are essential things that give the music meaning and direction for the listener. As you become an experienced player, these are your orientation, and will also guide how you express the music.

Continuing with the thought: A piece in C major will settle on C as the Tonic, while a piece in A minor will settle on A - each revolves around the Tonic and your ear will sense it as home base. This alone is a good reason for not thinking of all music that has a key signature of no sharps or flats as being C major - with A minor merely being a modal deviation. Your orientation will suffer (home base).

Continuing again: The scales themselves are not what make a piece be in a major or minor key. Even the fact of the last note in the melody settling on the tonic - that alone does not give us this "A minor feel to the ear" or "C major feel". What DOES do so are chord progressions. The primary thing is the progression of I (IV) V I and even more strongly I (IV) V7 I. Other chords can and do dance around and come in between, but this is the heart of the matter. Music is movement; it moves toward the tonic. Our ear has an expectation to "land on the tonic" because of the way these chords interact. It's almost a chemistry: drop vinegar into milk and it curdles. Milk and vinegar themselves are just two separate things. The non-musician will get the effects of this movement. He won't know why he feels this "settling toward the Tonic" feeling - he just knows that "this is the last note and the music has ended" because it "feels right".

Continuing with the above thought: In C major, your I IV V7 I chords will be C major, F major, G7, C major. In A minor those chords will be A minor, D minor, E7 (the G in the signature is raised to G# which you will see in the music as an accidental), A minor. Note that V7-I which "brings you home to the tonic" in C major are G7-C; while the same thing in A minor are A7-Am. You lose all that if you try to think of the music modally, as you are trying to do, by "considering everything to only be major".

Previously I coined a crude metaphor about the circulatory system and the respiratory system intertwining to make our bodies work, since our hearts pump the oxygen when is fetched by the lungs. Music has intertwining systems that work together to have its effect, and the chord progression along with melody is one of these. If you think of everything as being in major, you lose the chord-part of it. That's just one aspect.

--- In your two hour commute, do you have any way of listening to things, and listening for things? When you are home again, try to include some exploration of what you hear as you practice piano.

Yes, I am aware of that the tonic is considered "home" and I am aware of the concept of chord progressions and harmony(I haven't really studied it though).

It really makes more sense when we involve the roman numeral analysis method, I didn't think about that. But what if we choose another degree of the C major/A minor key as the "home", like the D tone(dorian)? Has that ever been done or can it be done at all?

Here is the same question formulated in another manner: In this collection of notes: C D E F G A B, both the 1st and the 6th note can be considered as "home" depending on the tonality. If I present the tones in another order, like here: A B C D E F G, the 1st and the 3rd note can be considered home, again, depending on tonality. From what I know, most pieces have either a major(Ionic) or minor(Aeolian) tonality(which obviously are expressed in the key signature), what happens if we assign the tonality in this collection of notes to D (which would be Dorian)? Why is this not as common(or is it)? Why haven't any classical pieces been written in D dorian?

Edit: A third way to state the question,One version for this collection of notes is:(Major tonality)C D E F G A BI II III IV V VI VII

Another is(Minor tonality)C D E F G A BIII IV V VI VII I II

So why not:(using another tone in the diatonic collection of notes as a center of tonality)C D E F G A B V VI VII I II III IV

I see Dorian and Mixylodian modes used a lot in traditional western music - British Isles music mostly for me, and it's transportation to the U.S. I haven't seen one particular way to notate the "key" signature, and in fact, have seen different ways within the same collection of music.

The Fiddler's Fakebook lists the mode in words up above the top staff.

If, for instance, one is in G Mix (like G major, but with an F natural instead of an F sharp) I've seen it notated with one sharp, and then naturals on all the F's, or without a sharp, and one is left to figure out from one's ear that the tonal center is G and not C or A.

I've seen G mixolydian notated with a natural sign inclosed in parenthesis on the F at the top of the treble clef as the "key signature".

There are similar things going on with Dorian.

There's always a trade-off between a tonal center being recognized fairly quickly from the key signature, because we're used to music like that, or one that gets figured out from the way the tune sounds, or one that has lots of accidentals. Well, sometimes lots of accidentals. It happens fairly often that a tune in, say, D Dorian, simply has no "B" notes, flatted or otherwise.

I'm not sure how classical music handles it, tho I know there is some classical music that is "modal" (which is what many musicians who play traditional music say when they want to distinguish a piece as not being major or minor).

It is also true that many traditional tunes don't strictly fit *any* one mode. But if you play it a lot you get used to it

Any of the notes CDEFGABC, or any other collection of notes, can be a "home" or tonic. It depends on what the piece does harmonically. It's just that the major and minor keys are fairly easy to establish a tonal feeling in, harmonically speaking, which is more difficult in, say, EFGABCDE, where the E can easily sound like a leading tone to F, or BCDEFGAB, where there is no perfect fifth. Other natural modes are sometimes used, as well as modes far more exotic.

So, for the collection of notes, CDEFGABC, you can have seven different modes without having to bring in additional tones. It's what you do with the notes that brings about the sense of "key" or "tonality"--whether A minor, C major, or any other mode. Most modes aren't studied by adult beginners since so much of what has been composed has been in major or minor, but feel free to do it--when I practice scales, I tend to do it on every degree.

And feel free to experiment--you can have hundreds of different modes, each with its own particular character. There are symmetrical scales like CDEFGAbBbC or CDEbFGABbC, scales with 8 or more tones. Major and minor are the most common but by no means the only scales you can or should use.

I agree that music can use many modes. I tend to complain about oversimplification - maybe I was guilty of it myself this time round. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who is starting out, for it not to be too overwhelming. One thing for sure though - the answer to why the books are pushing major and minor, is that they are trying to introduce the essential idea of key signatures. At least that is my guess.

Any of the notes CDEFGABC, or any other collection of notes, can be a "home" or tonic. It depends on what the piece does harmonically. It's just that the major and minor keys are fairly easy to establish a tonal feeling in, harmonically speaking, which is more difficult in, say, EFGABCDE, where the E can easily sound like a leading tone to F, or BCDEFGAB, where there is no perfect fifth. Other natural modes are sometimes used, as well as modes far more exotic.

So, for the collection of notes, CDEFGABC, you can have seven different modes without having to bring in additional tones. It's what you do with the notes that brings about the sense of "key" or "tonality"--whether A minor, C major, or any other mode. Most modes aren't studied by adult beginners since so much of what has been composed has been in major or minor, but feel free to do it--when I practice scales, I tend to do it on every degree.

And feel free to experiment--you can have hundreds of different modes, each with its own particular character. There are symmetrical scales like CDEFGAbBbC or CDEbFGABbC, scales with 8 or more tones. Major and minor are the most common but by no means the only scales you can or should use.

Thinking of this made me a bit confused why there was such focus on, aside from the major key signature, the minor one. Considering(as you stated) you can establish the tonality on any of the degrees.

Originally Posted By: keystring

I agree that music can use many modes. I tend to complain about oversimplification - maybe I was guilty of it myself this time round. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who is starting out, for it not to be too overwhelming. One thing for sure though - the answer to why the books are pushing major and minor, is that they are trying to introduce the essential idea of key signatures. At least that is my guess.

Minor keys were and often are considered the polar opposite of major keys. A yin-yang sort of thing.

They have their own signatures because A. they're used very often, and B. the use of accidentals, since minor keys almost always use, in the course of a composition, a raised seventh degree, and very frequently used a raised sixth as well--writing a key signature differently than the relative major seems counterintuitive, but, in many cases, it actually makes the notation easier and less messy.

Minor keys were and often are considered the polar opposite of major keys.

I'm not so sure about that. If we're talking about polar opposites in keys, a better candidate would be the pairs of keys with tonics separated by a tritone - C and F#, Db and G, D and Ab, Eb and A, etc. There are several reasons for this: for example, these pairs of keys have the unique feature of sharing the fewest tones mathematically possible (2 tones out of 12, with a 7-note scale).

Punchslap, some of the answers you are looking for are probably in music history. It's not practical for learning how to play but it may give you some idea in the larger scheme of things.

Yeah, I guess.

Also, I noticed I've written my thoughts in a quote incorrect manner, I must have mixed up the concepts of key signatures and scales, as mentioned before. What I meant was why we assign the tonality in a certain key signature to minor, instead of major, which seem to be the standard. But I see why now when applying the roman numeral analysis method. But I found it quite odd that the tonality is practically never assigned to another mode. Anyway, we discussed this already(I'm just clarifying what I meant in case someone is confused by my writing).

To me it would make more sense by only utilizing the "base" scale that we already have, the major scale or Ionic mode. And then you would simply visualize the minor scale along with all the other modes whilst still referring the major scale.

As for the melodic and harmonic minor scales though; wouldn't it make more sense to still refer to the major scale and write the accidentals where they are supposed to be without referring to the natural minor?

Wouldn't it make more sense?...

It does already...

Look at any written piece of music. What do you see for the Key Signature? Symbols right? #'s or b's symbols at the beginning to tell us the key signature. Just the symbols and "nothing more". So if you see two sharps: "##" symbols at the beginning it's telling you the key signature is DMaj or Bm but it doesn't tell you which.

Why doesn't written music tell you which? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER!

And..... that would include any piece of music structured IN any mode. The key signature will still remain the same. Why would it not?

As for the melodic and harmonic minor scales though; wouldn't it make more sense to still refer to the major scale and write the accidentals where they are supposed to be without referring to the natural minor?

I would say: Absolutely!

Look at the Melodic Minor scale: What's the difference between that and the Major Scale? ONE SINGLE NOTE! Yes.. the 3rd dropped down 1/2 step to the minor 3rd. The rest of the scale is the same as the major scale as is. Almost seems silly. It is the major scale accept for that one single note difference. Hardly something to make a fuss about.

Harmonic: Is just a 2 note difference and...Natural: Is just a 3 note difference.

Can you see it that way?

You can also look at it from the relative natural minor scale as well but don't confuse who is relative to who: For instance:

The C minor natural scale is relative to "Eb Major", not C Major yet the above example would have you look and the minor scales from C Major for the difference.

As for the melodic and harmonic minor scales though; wouldn't it make more sense to still refer to the major scale and write the accidentals where they are supposed to be without referring to the natural minor?

To answer this question directly: You could, but... referring to the natural minor scale poses no difference because in notation the key signature and scale notes are all the same as with the relative major. No matter which way you look at it the accidentals will be the same.

My only purpose for using the major scale is to keep me straight about what notes and in what pattern the relative natural minor scale is to be. For example:

The Cm Nat scale: To be sure, figure up the Eb Major scale. The only difference is a shifting of your start point. Cm Nat begins on Cm of course and Eb Major begins on Eb of course but when you reach the end of the Eb major, you are starting the relative Cm scale.

The pattern of "whole note / half note" is different but only because of the shifting starting point for relative minor. The pattern is actually identical, but merely out of phase by 3 semi-tones or half steps. See the picture?

So, when figuring the Melodic scale of Cm, you should know that the 6 and 7 notes are raised, basically heading back toward C major accept for the minor 3rd.

It make more sense and is easier to see the difference of Cm melodic to that of natural. Begin with the Cm natural scale. You do not want to begin with the C MAJOR scale, why? Because C Major belongs to a different KEY. Cm Melodic, Harmonic and Natural belong to Cm and Eb Major. Eb is the relative major scale, not C Major.

To me it would make more sense by only utilizing the "base" scale that we already have, the major scale or Ionic mode. And then you would simply visualize the minor scale along with all the other modes whilst still referring the major scale.

As for the melodic and harmonic minor scales though; wouldn't it make more sense to still refer to the major scale and write the accidentals where they are supposed to be without referring to the natural minor?

Wouldn't it make more sense?...

It does already...

Look at any written piece of music. What do you see for the Key Signature? Symbols right? #'s or b's symbols at the beginning to tell us the key signature. Just the symbols and "nothing more". So if you see two sharps: "##" symbols at the beginning it's telling you the key signature is DMaj or Bm but it doesn't tell you which.

Why doesn't written music tell you which? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER!

And..... that would include any piece of music structured IN any mode. The key signature will still remain the same. Why would it not?

That's your sense of it.

Interesting to read all of what you wrote, considering we seem to have the about the same thought. I'm not sure what I should respond though; so that's all I have to say

I've always been drawn to the minor key. Its the sound, the feeling it conveys to me. I guess thats why I prefer sad blues to uptempo blues.

The major key can be sadder than the minor.

What makes a minor chord to have sounded so beautifully is when it's in contrast with a major chord. Countless songs are structured this way for both major and minor keyed pieces. Minor whatever would not have the quality it deserves without the major component in combination with it. Think about that.

I've always been drawn to the minor key. Its the sound, the feeling it conveys to me. I guess thats why I prefer sad blues to uptempo blues.

The major key can be sadder than the minor.

What makes a minor chord to have sounded so beautifully is when it's in contrast with a major chord. Countless songs are structured this way for both major and minor keyed pieces. Minor whatever would not have the quality it deserves without the major component in combination with it. Think about that.

The simplest example and way to see for natural, harmonic and melodic scales is to use the Am nat scale which of course, will be just the white keys as with C Major. Am of course is the relative minor for C major.

Am Nautural will be all the white keys. (same as relative C Major)Am Harmonic will be the same accept the 7th note (G) is raised to G#.Am Melodic will be the same accept this time the 6th-(F) and the 7th-(G) note will both be raised: F# G#.

The melodic Am scale almost feels like A Major, doesn't it! Of course the minor 3rd.

When practicing the melodic scale, you go up using the melodic and come down using the natural. Go figure that one. I've already beat my head against the wall to understand why that is. You're using two named scales for the one. Why didn't they just give it a separate name? Sometimes you just have to accept what is.

BTW: I know how to play an Am chord on the Guitar. The 3rd and 4th string is held by your middle and ring finger on the second fret raising each of the open string notes one whole step. The 5th string is held by your index finger raising that note up one half step. Your open string notes are as follows:

1 2 3 4 5 6E A D G B EE A E A C E - These are the notes with strings held as described above for an Am chord but you know that.

The open string notes on the guitar span two octaves on the piano.

So when you strum an Am chord on the Guitar you probably omit the first string (E) so that it doesn't become the low note. That's my guess, anyway...

Here I'm just trying to show how you can relate the guitar with the keys on the piano since you're familiar with the guitar. I also played chords on the guitar myself before I came over to the piano.

BTW: I know how to play an Am chord on the Guitar. The 3rd and 4th string is held by your middle and ring finger on the second fret raising each of the open string notes one whole step. The 5th string is held by your index finger raising that note up one half step. Your open string notes are as follows:

1 2 3 4 5 6E A D G B EE A E A C E - These are the notes with strings held as described above for an Am chord but you know that.

You may want to edit the string numbers to make this information correct.

BTW: I know how to play an Am chord on the Guitar. The 3rd and 4th string is held by your middle and ring finger on the second fret raising each of the open string notes one whole step. The 5th string is held by your index finger raising that note up one half step. Your open string notes are as follows:

1 2 3 4 5 6E A D G B EE A E A C E - These are the notes with strings held as described above for an Am chord but you know that.

You may want to edit the string numbers to make this information correct.