:) Outstanding work Mark, as always.:applause:
Very classic illustration look which I grew up with.. and still admireThanks for that bmcaff - I think we probably grew up looking at the same stuff.
To be compared to "classic" illustration is to me high praise indeed :D

As always, absolutely beautiful work. Can't wait to see what you can do when you move to a real 3D package ;)

Those planes are flying rather close together aren't they, or is that accurate for the period?
LOL - yeah, this CAD application I'm using is over 10 years old now, and the limitations are pretty extreme.
Besides which any CAD application will be a little problematic simply because illustration is not what it was designed for.
But, in some ways, I think this has worked to my advantage.
It has forced me to figure out alternate methods to get what I want.
then again....
Maybe I'm just making up excuses for being too damn lazy to learn a new app. :)
In any case, I DO think it's high time I started looking into some new software.
But, I doubt I'll ever totaly abandon Microstation - it's doing what i want it to do.
and I see huge potential for improvement.

Too close together?
Perhaps
But, I knew from the begginning that i wanted a crowded image.
So i used a slightly "longer lens" than usual so that i could jam everybody together.
and, the speed and manuverability of these old planes would make it concievable that they would fly fairly close together.
But, to be honest, they are probably closer together than they would be in reality.
a compromise i'm willing to accept

Great image and a nice effect of depth. A view month ago you also made a picture with this (or a similar) aircraft standing on a meadow, or am I wrong?
Hmm.. not sure
I do have a standard open field environment that i typicaly run new models through when i'm working them as a test.
But, I don't remember doing that here. :shrug:

Thanks for all the comments
mark

mmiller

08-19-2004, 06:00 PM

Nice work man, specialy the cloudsHi Darkone2652
the background is a photo.
so i can't realy take credit for the clouds.

Mark

Xtra

08-19-2004, 10:20 PM

Hi Mark. I've done a search in the old forum and found the image(s) I was talking about:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=77402

:)

francescaluce

08-19-2004, 11:05 PM

he loves the airplanes.. and I love his airplanes. :cool:

ciao
francesca

mmiller

08-19-2004, 11:45 PM

xtra
Thanks - Those are Sopwith Camels of RNAS Squad 9 and 10
coincidentaly - i just today got a copy of the book those were created for.
I'm finaly published :D
http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=0764320556

I also have two active WIP threads:
The fokker DVII
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=161046&page=1&pp=15

and the N17 - on hold until the DVII illustrations are done :sad:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=55663&page=1&pp=15

tibes

08-20-2004, 02:48 AM

nice textures! :thumbsup:

TheUnkind

08-20-2004, 03:20 AM

nice piece you got there... :applause:

tho' the location of the guns i think is out of place...bigger chance to kill you (nah just my 2c)....

DMageXVII

08-20-2004, 04:00 AM

Wow, what a nice model! :buttrock:

If i had to crit something, it would be in your composited sketch (or at least it looks like a composited sketch...?) Anyways, my beef is with the fact that all the planes are all facing the same way and their pitch is identical as well. It's a shame you didn't show diffrent angles since the plane seems so nicely modeled. Now, i know you may have wanted the planes to appear as if they were turning in formation (at least, that's how it looks to me), but you could display two squadrons, or a few planes who have detatched, or, even better, in a skirmish.

In any case, props to the excellent model and great composition, and i look forward to seeing more of you!

*Edit* I just noticed your flaps are even oriented properly! Awesome!

DragonMage

evan

08-20-2004, 05:04 AM

Mark, once again :applause: are in order. They just keep getting better. The profile and plan views are especially nice. Congrats on being published, awesome achievment, and well done on making front page of CG Talk!

phoenix

08-20-2004, 07:02 AM

very impressive work....

dassbaba

08-20-2004, 07:14 AM

that is excellent :)
keep up the amazing work =D

kiwi123

08-20-2004, 07:14 AM

Nice one Mark, I really like the look of the engine cowling on the front camel, very well done indeed !

Clanger

08-20-2004, 08:38 AM

Well, you did it again outstanding. I love this super sharp hyper real look and how you manage to texture everything without taking 27 years over it I can't guess.

Baldasseroni

08-20-2004, 09:22 AM

Mark, i`m a great fan of yourk works...this one is no exception...extremely neat and illustratrive, lovely stuff.

Ale

DUCKORABB

08-20-2004, 09:42 AM

Good! Squad of great machines, this is Sopwith Pup or Camel?
1st war machine is very curious, three-wings Fokker DR-1 with the Rittmeister Manfred von Richthofen or tank A.7V-castle on caterpillar!

Regards

DCKBB

ACantarel

08-20-2004, 10:00 AM

Very nice and accurate models!

André

Corto

08-20-2004, 10:24 AM

Outstanding!!!
Very good Work!!!

bazze

08-20-2004, 10:24 AM

I love WW1 & WW2 airplanes and I love this picture!!
Great work!

mushroomgod

08-20-2004, 11:06 AM

5 stars :applause:

its nice to see some tech illustration on the front page

Tughan

08-20-2004, 11:58 AM

I like it. Great Job! :thumbsup:

halo

08-20-2004, 01:17 PM

nice. :)

my only crits would be:

the composition, i would expect it to look better with less planes, perhaps even just one would be nice. With this many it looks like you have made an obvious effort to change things like blue engine cowling on a couple red wheels etc which when theyre altogether stands out a little from being natural

the underlighting on the wings...it seems to clash with the darkness of the shadows on the fusalage...

the texturing...seems a little concrete/cardboard and not quite doped canvas over struts.

....and to be really pendantic i would expect a little right rudder on as well to stop tailslide at such an attitude ;)

mmiller

08-20-2004, 02:14 PM

Wow, what a nice model! :buttrock:

If i had to crit something, it would be in your composited sketch (or at least it looks like a composited sketch...?) Anyways, my beef is with the fact that all the planes are all facing the same way and their pitch is identical as well. It's a shame you didn't show diffrent angles since the plane seems so nicely modeled. Now, i know you may have wanted the planes to appear as if they were turning in formation (at least, that's how it looks to me), but you could display two squadrons, or a few planes who have detatched, or, even better, in a skirmish.

In any case, props to the excellent model and great composition, and i look forward to seeing more of you!

*Edit* I just noticed your flaps are even oriented properly! Awesome!

DragonMageDragonMage
Yes, the image is heavily composited in Pshop
Each aircraft is rendered out seperately and then brought into the final .psd file on it's own level. Can be a little bulky at times, but I do like working this way as it gives me a lot of control at the end of the process.
Biggest pain is that I have no way to create an alpha channel, so I usualy grab the AC by selecting the background - inverting the selection then copy/paste into the final .psd file.
Problem is that it generaly leaves a halo of light pixels that i have to manualy remove.
can take hours for large foreground aircraft.
although - I could probably figure out a way to generate an alpha channel by rendering out a silouette.
But, in some kind of masochistic way, I like having to manupulate the layers on a pixel by pixel basis.

as for the orientation of the aircraft.
I tried lots of variations on this one - altering headings and bank.
But, I wanted the image to have a kind of overwhelming force feeling.
and keeping all the ac in the same general range seemed to optimise this.
This order vs randomness is a deceptively big issue with images like this.
You don't want it too rigid - or too loose.
can be a delicate thing.

in any case
This is the second comment I've recieved on this issue
so maybe I better consider it :)
Thanks for the input

mmiller

08-20-2004, 02:23 PM

nice. :)

my only crits would be:

the composition, i would expect it to look better with less planes, perhaps even just one would be nice. With this many it looks like you have made an obvious effort to change things like blue engine cowling on a couple red wheels etc which when theyre altogether stands out a little from being natural

the underlighting on the wings...it seems to clash with the darkness of the shadows on the fusalage...

the texturing...seems a little concrete/cardboard and not quite doped canvas over struts.

....and to be really pendantic i would expect a little right rudder on as well to stop tailslide at such an attitude ;)Hi Halo
As for the color schemes of the aircraft - this is dictated by history.
Or at least, my best effort at trying to interpret exactly what they looked like.
Sometimes it can be a guessing game - but I'm pretty confident that the color schemes are historicaly acurate.

Crowded?
Yeah, I did that on purpose

Wings too light?
perhaps - but there is a surprising amount of light bouncing around in mid air.
personaly, i'm not so sure that AC with the blue nose lower left sits very well.
Maybe a touch too light overall?

Concrete?
LOL
I have a texture that was derived from a photo of a sidewalk that I typicaly use for generic noise. I layered it into just about every major surface here.
So yeah, I can see what your saying :)
One of these days i'll have to focus on my fabric textures and see if I can come up with some alternates.

Thanks
mark

mmiller

08-20-2004, 02:28 PM

And thanks to everybody for the comments
Front page! that's a first for me
I'm very pleased :D

the original file for this image is about 6000 x 7500 pixels
here are a couple of small sections at actual size

http://mwmiller.net/camel/148/148_Aero_CU2.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/camel/148/148_Aero_CU.jpg

Bil

08-20-2004, 03:04 PM

Hey again Mark. Those full size detail iamges bring up a few points in my mind... first, the bump map on the oval access panel in the top image looks unnatural, stretched and flat. However, that being said, the image looks fabulous and that is really a very minor criticism. Second... you have good motion blur on the prop, but the cylinders of the engine look static to me, especially on the background aircraft of the second detail image. Your pilot looks very good also.. very natural, although his flying cap seems to be pretty tight to his head ;)

I love seeing these details, thanks for providing them.

Bil

halo

08-20-2004, 03:11 PM

yes, i know what you mean about how much light is up there...something just makes me think the wings have a bit of too much self illumination compared to the darkness in the shadows...

i know what you mean about concrete, its good for grime so it tends to get used for other things...we do the same, sometimes it's force of habit ;)

Guybrush

08-20-2004, 03:22 PM

another amazing work from u, congratulations

mmiller

08-20-2004, 03:23 PM

Hey again Mark. Those full size detail iamges bring up a few points in my mind... first, the bump map on the oval access panel in the top image looks unnatural, stretched and flat. However, that being said, the image looks fabulous and that is really a very minor criticism. Second... you have good motion blur on the prop, but the cylinders of the engine look static to me, especially on the background aircraft of the second detail image. Your pilot looks very good also.. very natural, although his flying cap seems to be pretty tight to his head ;)

I love seeing these details, thanks for providing them.

Bil
Hi Bil
Yes - your absolutely right
in reality, i'm sure those engines would be spinning so fast
that you would hardly be able to see them.

and THERE lies the problem.
I like those engines too damn much to spin them out of
existance.
So, I put in just enough blur to be able to say:
"yeah, i know the engines spin.
see, I blured them ..... a little" :D

perhaps I should explain
The Camel was powered by a rotary engine.
and the way rotaries work, the whole engine spins with the prop.
Which is a pretty amazing thing - And when you consider that the rest of the aircraft is essentialy made up of wood and cloth - just imagine the gyroscopic effects of that whole engine spinning.
No wonder it killed so many inexperienced pilots.

mdurwin

08-20-2004, 03:56 PM

nice piece you got there... :applause:

tho' the location of the guns i think is out of place...bigger chance to kill you (nah just my 2c)....
Actually the guns are in the right place if you can believe it. Eventually the weapons were moved to the top of the wings but initially they sat between the pilot and propellor. The guns were timed to fire between the blades, which didn't work all that well, then metal plating was added to the back of the props to reflect them. Props had to be constantly changed despite this as the bullets eventually broke through the metal plating and chewed up the wings. Fascinating how watching the History and Discover Channels helps with modeling eh?

mmiller

08-20-2004, 04:36 PM

Actually the guns are in the right place if you can believe it. Eventually the weapons were moved to the top of the wings but initially they sat between the pilot and propellor. The guns were timed to fire between the blades, which didn't work all that well, then metal plating was added to the back of the props to reflect them. Props had to be constantly changed despite this as the bullets eventually broke through the metal plating and chewed up the wings. Fascinating how watching the History and Discover Channels helps with modeling eh?Hi mdurwin
WW1 was the first time anybody even thought to put a machinegun in an airplane.
And placement was an issue
Initialy, (like you said) they placed metal wedges on the prop to protect the prop and deflect the inevitable richochetts.
But, this was a bad solution in that the bullet hits eventualy destroyed the prop as well as the engine.
Also was dangerous - I hear several peopel were killed just testing the arangement.

Anthony Fokker is generaly credited with devising the first synch device - which was a rather simple device utilising cams and linkages that prevented the gun from firing when the prop was in the way.
And throughout the war many different synch devices were produced.
In fact, it's kind of pain keeping track of what went where.

You can see the synch device for the camel in this image
It's the assembly on the top of the breech (?) toward the left of the image.
The cable goes to the engine and actuates the device via a cam

http://mwmiller.net/camel/camecpit2.jpg

and here another Vickers instalation using the Akan Hamy synch device on the Neuport 17
On this image i turned off the cooling jacket so you could see the linkages.
that rod goes down behind the engine and is activated by a cam that has "bumps" where the prop is
the bumps - push the rod up which is translated into a back/forward motion by that bellcrank - that deactivates the gun momemtarily.
as you might be able to see - I have a problem here in that the oil tank is in the way of the rod :shrug:
I'll figure it out eventualy.

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17bcu.jpg

conversly - they also mounted guns on top of the wing and avoided the whole situation entirely.
I don't believe an outer wing mounted situation (like WW2) was feasable at this time.
not sure if it was a structural integrity thing - or just because these old guns jammed so frequently they needed to be close to the pilot so he could manualy clear it.
In any case - I suppose that's more info than anybody realy wanted
But there it is :)

BTW - I love the history channel too
But I find it is best to just view programs about stuff I know nothing about :rolleyes:

Orkman

08-20-2004, 05:14 PM

Oh this just makes me so mad. So jealous. The texturing is superb, I love it. Are the pilots 3D, or comped in?

mr Bob

08-20-2004, 06:02 PM

Outstanding the best work ive seen in a long time ... have you tried using xsi or maya , i think you should ..and if if i ever see your cv on a seniors sups desk i be sure to recommend you for a job ...

B

mdurwin

08-20-2004, 07:26 PM

I'm not so sure about Maya or xsi. Maya is a bit too expensive for the average modeler. It's great if your company uses it. Don't get me wrong Maya is pretty awesome, but the price and lack of a renderer is a bit off-putting. xsi has produced some cool stuff but I don't know alot about it. You could definately try Lightwave. It's got the most accurate modeler around, not to mention it's own kick-a$$ render. It's extremely cheap when compared to other modeling packages. I think you'd like how precise the modeling is. My girlfriend works in CAD, which is obviously VERY precise and I've modeled a few things for her for clients and she was pretty impressed that how exacting I could get. Here's an example if you haven't seen any Lightwave rendered stuff. Of course my modeling skills pale next to most of the guys on this board...

mmiller

08-20-2004, 07:59 PM

Oh this just makes me so mad. So jealous. The texturing is superb, I love it. Are the pilots 3D, or comped in?Orkman - the pilots are all 3D
But they were sent to me by a friend years ago and are all meshes.
The problem with that is that I can't map to multiple elements.
And my software sees each polygon as an individual element.
This limits how much I can do with them. And I generaly have to do a lot of work to them in Pshop to get them looking ok.
I've been slowly replacing elements with modeled geometry - the helemet and goggles have been replaced. But, I haven't tackled the face yet.
Which definitly won't be easy using CAD.
Organic forms are NOT it's strength.
But, I think I should be able to manage it.

Mr Bob
Thanks
I have no experience with Maya or xsi
But, i have heard good things about Maya
maybe one day :)

Obizzz

08-20-2004, 08:17 PM

another great image by you :)

you should probably stick to some kind of CAD software and import the files into something with better rendering capabilites.

I have no idea what formats microstation can handle though.

The models are really top notch, would be awesome to see them rendered with a really good renderer.

kidcodea

08-20-2004, 09:07 PM

simply KICKASS!

mdurwin

08-20-2004, 10:22 PM

Yes,

Definatly great work. Amazing detail. If you want to try Lightwave, they have a fully functioning demo. Somewhere on there site: http://www.newtek.com is an educational demo that is free. You are only limited by your render abilities and the amount of polygons you can model.

in your sofa

08-21-2004, 03:16 AM

such a perdy plane!!!!:)

HocusPocus

08-21-2004, 03:33 AM

great work with the textures!

absolutely amazing!

HawVer

08-21-2004, 01:37 PM

The textures are great! Good work.. I really like it! Do have a hi res rendering for wallpaper? :love:

pZion

08-21-2004, 11:18 PM

I love those renders! And yes, we need some hi-res to use as wallpapers! ;)
Actually, you have inspired me to try making this plane. It won't be as good as yours, but at least i can try.

But do you have some close-up pics of the wheels and the... "stuff" around? I have made the wheels, but i have problems with the things (I don't know what it's called in norwegian), but the things that the wheels are attached to, and to the plane. :)

preludian

08-22-2004, 12:19 AM

Really really great :thumbsup: I would be interested how the orginal Microstation render looked, before you did your PS artwork over it.

mmiller

08-22-2004, 03:29 AM

Hawver
I made up a 1280 x 1024 version.
The image is set for a vertical format, but this recroped version is ok.
http://mwmiller.net/camel/148/camscreen_1280.jpg

Pzion
Great idea:)
Best reference images on-line for the Camel are here:
http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Bri/SopCamel/index.html
I have quite a bit of material on this aircraft, if you need something in particular send me your e-mail and i'll see what i can do.

Preludian
a little problematic in that the whole thing never existed at the Microstation level.
But, here is the original render for the blue Camel lower left.
All I have done so far is to delete the background.

http://mwmiller.net/camel/148/camprelim_800.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/camel/148/camprelimss.jpg

Although
After looking closer at this particular image
I might have not used it - it's more screwed up than usual
Notice the little fins coming out of the rigging connectors.
that's some kind of bug that tends to crop up as the model matures.

Other than that - pretty standard stuff.
I usualy just erase the rigging lines when they sillouette against the sky and replace them with the line tool.
Light ring of pixels surrounding the obkect that needs to be edited out.
a little blur tool
hunt down mistakes ...
blah blah

Mark

hesido

08-22-2004, 10:43 PM

Cool!

I'd have preferred to have some planes in straight position as not all would have started their roll at the same time unless they are heavily moderated using a central radio command :) (this may also be dangerous, but I am not an aviation expert hehe, but it would "occur to me" that the furthest on the right would start rolling to right and then the others would follow)

A superb execution, but with the uneven rolling of planes it would look much more believable!

preludian

08-22-2004, 11:52 PM

Do you mean you rendered it out this way in MS and then did your PS retouche? Didn't know one could so something like this in MS, amazing....

oxyg3n

08-23-2004, 08:34 AM

These aircraft look nice to me. Good job

Reinier

08-23-2004, 09:13 AM

I love it. It really captures the beauty of flying. Also the texturing and shading is top notch.

:thumbsup:

mmiller

08-23-2004, 11:36 AM

Do you mean you rendered it out this way in MS and then did your PS retouche? Didn't know one could so something like this in MS, amazing....Preludian
Thanks
yes, there is quite a bit you can do with Miocrostation.
It's just hardly ever done.
Problem is you need to configure the model specificaly for illustration.
But, it is a design tool - and engineers generaly don't care about "realistic" visualisation.

However - architects have done some very nice work with microstation.
They DO care about realistic visualisation for obvious reasons :)

Skyraider3D

08-23-2004, 02:01 PM

Very professional stuff Mark!!! :thumbsup:
Congrats on the front page plug! Well deserved!

Martin Kay

08-23-2004, 04:54 PM

Hi Mark, I love your Camels! I know just how much work is involved there, having done a Tiger Moth some time ago, (actually have just started to redo cockpits to full detail from photos I took years ago, together with a proper paint job with markings etc etc)
You seem to have well captured that 'Boy's Own' annual look with the illustrative style you've used. As someone else mentioned the level of lighting underwing doesn't match the dark shadow cast across fusilage side- but if portrayed in a more 'accurate' manner it might destroy the effect. As for background and the cut-out issue, can't you composite inside your app. I have my eye on constructing a Sopwith Triplane and have been collecting pics from the net etc. Your images are top notch for ref material- I hope you're making some cash from it all!
Re machine guns and synch with prop etc, I read only last week that Fokker stole the idea from a crashed British craft... His version was a much improved theme of the idea of course. He had his unit up and running within a week.

mmiller

08-23-2004, 07:38 PM

Hi Mark, I love your Camels! I know just how much work is involved there, having done a Tiger Moth some time ago, (actually have just started to redo cockpits to full detail from photos I took years ago, together with a proper paint job with markings etc etc)
You seem to have well captured that 'Boy's Own' annual look with the illustrative style you've used. As someone else mentioned the level of lighting underwing doesn't match the dark shadow cast across fusilage side- but if portrayed in a more 'accurate' manner it might destroy the effect. As for background and the cut-out issue, can't you composite inside your app. I have my eye on constructing a Sopwith Triplane and have been collecting pics from the net etc. Your images are top notch for ref material- I hope you're making some cash from it all!
Re machine guns and synch with prop etc, I read only last week that Fokker stole the idea from a crashed British craft... His version was a much improved theme of the idea of course. He had his unit up and running within a week.
Hi Martin
Thanks
The Tiger Moth sounds interesting - maybe you should start a WIP thread
Great plane - with lots of interesting color schemes to choose from.

Illustration style
LOL
yeah, "boys own annual" says it pretty well.
that is ok by me

yes, i could composite in Microstation.
But there are a lot of reasons not to.
My texture mapping set up is designed such that i can map one AC at a time.
i could go through and add another material file but it would be a pain.
also not sure if the software could handle all this at once.
but the real reason is I VERY much like doing this in Pshop.
I can interactivly see exactly what i'm doing
It's just more intuitive to me..... more like painting.

Triplan eh?
how are you set for refs - I have this aircraft pretty well covered.

Mark

Martin Kay

08-23-2004, 09:27 PM

'Triplan eh?
how are you set for refs - I have this aircraft pretty well covered.'

Hi Mark I have a set of three view drawings which are fair for basic shape but not too much detail stuff. If you can point me towards some stuff that would be great. Mind you I'm some way off from that currently... I'm mainly using c4d and constructed the Tiger Moth a couple of years ago, but seeing as I have BodyPaint2 unused I probably ought to get using it. A WIP might be good for some feed back- how do I put images up? Its not so clear... Do I need a site to host tham from? I have one actually, mostly unused.

Skyraider3D

08-24-2004, 09:20 PM

Martin, drop me an e-mail if you need some reference photos of the Sopwith Triplane, as I have some for you :)
Here's an example which would be a good reference image for details:
http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com/files/EOS300D/OldWarden_02.jpg
I've taken these at an airshow last month. Original resolution is 3072x2048 pixels :)

ChrisColibaba

08-24-2004, 11:24 PM

Great modelling and texturing!

TrapperJohn

08-26-2004, 07:08 PM

Excellent job on this Mark :buttrock:
Full respect earned for doing this in Microstation! I haven't hear that software referenced in a long long time.

Cheers

Aedilhum

08-30-2004, 09:52 PM

Great work man!

cathode

09-01-2004, 03:40 PM

WOW
You know what excites me most? knowing the research and details under the skin, The open-frame renders on your site are just bogglingly good. :D

Fahrija

10-22-2004, 01:04 PM

Nice work - I especially like the metal texture at the front parts

clever_guy

01-28-2005, 07:21 AM

Fantastic attention to detail!!!

:thumbsup:

-CG

fluids

03-17-2005, 10:13 PM

awesome work! reminds me of Hell's Angels a little bit!

floclau

10-29-2005, 11:12 AM

amazing i like the texture work

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