David Twede, former editor of the popular website, MormonThink, resigned from the LDS church during the ExMormon Foundation Conference today. He had been threatened with excommunication recently and although the "Court of Love" was later cancelled, Mr. Twede apparently decided to take any and all so called ecclesiastical power away publicly. Strong affirmations of support Mr. Twede.

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His resignation from the outfit is sad. Not that he did so but the way it was forced on him.

Sterling McMurrin did not believe in the Book of Mormon and stated so. He was left alone.

B.H. Roberts did not believe in the Book of Mormon. He was left alone.

Twede is editor of a website that pushes for Truth, no matter where it comes from. He has asked those L-dS,inc "authorities" who don't like his site to show what is incorrect and he would have it changed to reflect the Truth.

Why is L-dS,inc so threatened by the TRUTH?

So what if it is not presented the way they like it? Joseph Smith himself is supposed to have believed that ALL TRUTH was part of "The Gospel" and embraced by The Church.

Current leadership does not believe what Joseph Smith plainly taught.

Twede is the target of quotidian fools, bigots and bullies. May they all be infected with lice, crabs, bedbugs and VD.

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Nephi, Sterling McMurrin had his stake president schedule a church court after he published his book - Theological Foundations of Mormonism. David O'Mckay, a family friend, personally intervened to stop it.
Excommunicating critics hass been going on for a long time.

I'm glad he resigned. Something about the entire affair bothers me, though. There is evidence that David set the entire chain of events in motion himself through a sockpuppet at LDS, Inc. You can read about it in detail over at mormondiscussions. To my knowledge, David has never addressed this issue. I'd be very interested in hearing his explanation.

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

His resignation from the outfit is sad. Not that he did so but the way it was forced on him.

Sterling McMurrin did not believe in the Book of Mormon and stated so. He was left alone.

B.H. Roberts did not believe in the Book of Mormon. He was left alone.

Twede is editor of a website that pushes for Truth, no matter where it comes from. He has asked those L-dS,inc "authorities" who don't like his site to show what is incorrect and he would have it changed to reflect the Truth.

Why is L-dS,inc so threatened by the TRUTH?

So what if it is not presented the way they like it? Joseph Smith himself is supposed to have believed that ALL TRUTH was part of "The Gospel" and embraced by The Church.

Current leadership does not believe what Joseph Smith plainly taught.

Twede is the target of quotidian fools, bigots and bullies. May they all be infected with lice, crabs, bedbugs and VD.

When I was a kid, we lived very near a tiny Reorganized LDS church in Compton, California. I noticed (and remember) that the the meeting schedule sign on the front of the building said: OUR CREED, ALL TRUTH. Such a different world, sixty years ago...

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Hi, I am new to the forum. I want help. There is a member who is posting anti-mormon information and claiming to be a member in good standing. I know him, his name and want his leaders to encourage him to stop.

What do I do?

it's an article at that mormon think website.

(link to political candidate discussion removed by moderator)

I hope it isn't inappropriate to post and ask this here, but I don't know where else to do it.

I think it's an anti-mormon site. I know the guy that wrote that and he's claiming to be a good member, but I know he's not.

Are you saying that it's not really anti-mormon?

I think if other Christians see this list, it will not be seen favorably.

...

Now I am getting confused. Some of you have said that they lie a lot at MT, pretending to be active members. That's also what I know of David, the current editor there. However, some of you have said that the material is correct and while presented in a way to convey a message that pushes apart, it is not untrue. Some have said that it is very misleading, but that it has the facts correct. What is going on here? The new editor that I know is there because the previous one left the church. He is still a member, but I wouldn't call him a good member. However, I have read the article and now see that all of the points come directly from scriptures or standard books in the church. I think it is meant to divide people, using the facts. If this gets out to non-members, and if they think a good member is writing this, that is going to look bad. Can't we get it shut down or have the editor reprimanded by church leaders for portraying himself that way?

8/27/12 David Twede's first article on Mitt Romney posted on Mormonthink.

The person who started this IS the person who writes the blog, whose deception here will tell you all you need to know about his sense of ethics.

LDS.net is saying starlight12 and David Twede both posted from the same IP addres.

All of the above is verifiable from the LDS.net, MormonThink, and the Paisley Perestroika blog.

Here is what I think is relevant, but cannot be verified at present from a source other than FAIR: PMs allegedly sent by starlight012 to someone at FAIR.

"starlight012" said: You're welcome. What will you be able to do about this except to report about it at FAIR? Can this man get reported to his bishop? If he's using his active membership to promote anti-mormonism, his bishop might not take kindly to it.

"starlight012" said: I know him. That's why I posted the first time a few weeks ago. I know the photo on his profile at the mormonthink site and enough of his history (living in Ann Arbor, etc) that I am sure. His name is David Twede. I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida. Thanks!

"starlight012" said: No problem. I hope they don't get scared off by that press statement. They'll probably back down from the court now. That's probably what he wants and why he's taking it out there.

"starlight012" said: where did you see this press release? I'm searching online. His blog is gone too.

MormonThink got a ton of national publicity over the notion that you were being excommunicated for opposing Romney, even though you've since said that no one ever mentioned Romney to you. (The link to Romney appeared in the MormonThink press release.) In fact, the evidence is that you were outed by starlight012 and FAIR.

In my opinion, the above facts taken by themselves make a pretty good circumstantial case that you posted as starlight012 on LDS.net for the purpose of outing yourself and getting some publicity for MormonThink.

So, my questions:

Is it true that both starlight012 and David Twede posted to LDS.net from the same computer?

Did you post as starlight012 on LDS.net?

If not, are you saying that a relative of yours posted on LDS.net as starlight012?

Which parts of what Scott Gordon is saying constitute a "smear?" In other words, what is he saying that isn't true?

I think MormonThink is a great website, and I have no love for Scott Gordon or FAIR. But if, in fact, you generated the whole chain of events by posting at LDS.net, I think the folks here are entitled to know that.

EDIT: There was a typo in the chronology I orignially posted. Starlight012 first posted on LDS.net on 8/23, not 8/3. i've corrected it.

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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

Sometimes. You'll usually get one IP address to a household. Some service providers don't keep IP addresses in one place, and you may see one address hop between different users in a certain area, and the tie between people and addresses isn't very clear.

But this situation doesn't suggest either of those. The quotes "Can this man get reported to his bishop?" and "I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida" suggest someone who's not in the same area, and certainly not in the same household.

Someone's clearly lying here. It could be that David Twede had a sock puppet for publicity. It could be he has an enemy much closer to home than admitted. It could be that the LDS.net moderator is lying about the matching IP addresses.

On the last point, I would tend to think not, but I can't rule it out. And regardless, to publicly announce such a thing sounds like an abuse of a moderator's inside information. I recall a similar situation here recently with a double identity (the Plato/Prophet of Reason situation), but I feel such things should be dealt with behind the scenes as much as possible, and certainly not along the lines of "The person who started this IS the person who writes the blog, whose deception here will tell you all you need to know about his sense of ethics."

”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

A lot of internet companies use so-called "proxy-servers" through which their subscribers connect to the internet.

The result is that, for the outside world, all these subscribers have the same IP address and for the computer-illiterate on that forum that apparently means there's only one subscriber.

In this case, I don't buy it. If someone is saying something like "I think this guy is in Florida" (and telling the truth), then he's not going to be sharing an IP with him, even in a proxy server case. No provider is going to route traffic interstate just to get to a proxy and push it further from there; that's not keeping costs down.

No, something's fishy here. I know enough about how the Internet works (after 15 years in the business) that I can tell either starlight012 wasn't honestly representing how close he is to David Twede, or the op was lying about the IP address

Also lets not forget how family members can factor in to such a situation.

Indeed. That's one of the possibilities, provided it's a family member who has physical proximity (perhaps one who visits occasionally).

Sometimes. You'll usually get one IP address to a household. Some service providers don't keep IP addresses in one place, and you may see one address hop between different users in a certain area, and the tie between people and addresses isn't very clear.

But this situation doesn't suggest either of those. The quotes "Can this man get reported to his bishop?" and "I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida" suggest someone who's not in the same area, and certainly not in the same household.

Someone's clearly lying here. It could be that David Twede had a sock puppet for publicity. It could be he has an enemy much closer to home than admitted. It could be that the LDS.net moderator is lying about the matching IP addresses.

FWIW, I can confirm that I am aware of a close relative of
Dave's (that, incidentally, uses the same domain for E-mail that
Dave uses) who personally confessed to outing Dave to Scott
Gordon. The individual articulated a desire to initially not
have their name associated with the outing, but then decided to
go ahead to save people's cult testimonies. I can also confirm
it is a HUGE stretch to be casting aspersions on the ethics of
Dave Twede, and I can't figure out what is going on with it.

The church has been messing with the MT folks for some time,
threatening them and such, and they are not alone. It seems
like nearly every week new people come into our local support
group (in SLC) with another heart-wrenching story of abuse and
family destruction at the hands of the mormon cult.

On one hand at PostMo we are talking about legal research projects to potentially see if the cult is culpable under the
RICO (rackateering) statutes, and on the other hand we are
worried about the fairness and ethics of calling out the cult in
the press in any possible way?? As to the Romney link to the church's actions, no one
that I have seen is claiming a direct cause and effect between
the Twede church court and the Romney posting, BUT everyday
(hopefully) I see articles that TAKE ADVANTAGE of Romney to
teach people the truth about the dangerous mormon cult.

WATCH: Romney Church Ceremonies Revealed!

Mormon Founder Joseph Smith Also Ran For President

Will Romney Follow Church Leader's Council on Gay Marriage?

Multi-Billion Dollar Shopping Mall? Yep, its the Right Church
for Romney.

Are we not clearly delighted to have the tool Romney in order
to call out the cult in every possible way? Are we not happy to
include a reference to Romney in order to get the stories picked
up and published in the press? If there is a plausible timeline
to muse that there is a link at the COB between a Romney posting
and a disciplinary action against the author, and if this
possibility can get the story published, I have no problem with
that personally. I can't see any possible way to square the
moral relativism of equating name-dropping in a controversial
press article and the destructive actions of a lying mafia-style
racket.

And let's not compare the ethics and honesty of Twede and
Gordan, shall we? I mean, to me Gordan has all the ethical
substance of Tariq Aziz.

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“The problem we face is that superstition and belief in magic are millions of years old, whereas science, with its methods of controlling for intervening variables to circumvent false positives, is only a few hundred years old”. Micheal Shermer

I simply do not agree that deception is justified in trying to bring the truth about mormonism to light.

The connection to Romney was made in the first press release issued by MormonThink:

"Last week, on September 11, 13 and 15, David Twede, the managing editor of MormonThink.com posted a series of articles on the political history of the LDS Church, as it relates to Mitt Romney’s campaign and Romney’s stubbornness of keeping his tax forms secret as it’s tied with LDS historical policies. As managing editor, David is a life-long, fifth-generation Mormon in good standing.

"Then on September 16, his LDS Bishop, LDS Stake President and two Church executives brought David into Florida Mormon Church offices at the Orlando-based congregation and interrogated him about his writings, telling him, 'Cease and desist, Brother Twede.' In a letter hastily typed, they scheduled an excommunication 'for apostasy' on September 30 at 7:30am, to remove David from the LDS church.

David later said that the Church leaders never mentioned the Romney articles to him.

Are you saying that this relative is the startlight012 that posted at LDS.net? Are you saying David was not the starlight012 that posted at LDS.net? Has this relative publicly acknowledged his/her role in outing David? Is there any way to verify this information?

I know there are lots of exmormons who believes that, when it comes to the LDS church, the ends justify the means. I'm not one of them. I'm not saying folks should agree with me. All I'm saying is that I think folks are entitled to know the entirety of the facts so they can make up their own minds.

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

I simply do not agree that deception is justified in trying to bring the truth about mormonism to light.

The connection to Romney was made in the first press release issued by MormonThink:

"Last week, on September 11, 13 and 15, David Twede, the managing editor of MormonThink.com posted a series of articles on the political history of the LDS Church, as it relates to Mitt Romney’s campaign and Romney’s stubbornness of keeping his tax forms secret as it’s tied with LDS historical policies. As managing editor, David is a life-long, fifth-generation Mormon in good standing.

"Then on September 16, his LDS Bishop, LDS Stake President and two Church executives brought David into Florida Mormon Church offices at the Orlando-based congregation and interrogated him about his writings, telling him, 'Cease and desist, Brother Twede.' In a letter hastily typed, they scheduled an excommunication 'for apostasy' on September 30 at 7:30am, to remove David from the LDS church.

David later said that the Church leaders never mentioned the Romney articles to him.

Are you saying that this relative is the startlight012 that posted at LDS.net? Are you saying David was not the starlight012 that posted at LDS.net? Has this relative publicly acknowledged his/her role in outing David? Is there any way to verify this information?

I know there are lots of exmormons who believes that, when it comes to the LDS church, the ends justify the means. I'm not one of them. I'm not saying folks should agree with me. All I'm saying is that I think folks are entitled to know the entirety of the facts so they can make up their own minds.

I agree that deception is not the way to go when trying to bring to light the truth about Mormonism or even religion as a whole. I believe the simple truth should be told and presented. But I don't believe that we should be holding back from telling the truth. Sure, religion does some good but does that good out-weigh the evil that is born out of religion? Does it wipe the slate clean of all the false hope, money stealing, slavery, prejudices, hatred, deceit, murder, rape, torture, etc and etc., that is done and justified by following its many teachings? Hell NO! As far as I'm concerned religion causes harm and promotes indifference.

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- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

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- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

The press release only notes the sequence of events and never claims that there is a direct cause-and-effect relationship.

This happens all the time and you are not calling out those who authored pieces noting that the church came out with a doctrinal or policy statement and then, later, a mormon politician sponsored some legislation that endorses or promotes the same thing, and the article notes that there may be some linkage.

For example, people call attention to the cult's silly history of considering caffeine evil and then the church issues some statement that it is a market-driven decision at BYU to ban caffeine drinks, and then people obviously conclude the negative PR drove the church to disclaim the doctrine. What happens? FAIR (and Gordon, in particular) FREAKS out. There's NO relationship he claims. I guess it depends on whose ox is gored I guess, whatever. To note the sequence is hardly unethical.

As to plumbing the identities of the various posters. I guess I am still confused about the need to figure it all out.

Twede has credible evidence (that I have personally reviewed) that close family members outed him. How he came to know this and what he can do about it and what lines he should or should not cross to please anyone's sense of legitimate due diligence is his own business and he owes no one an accounting. My own sense of Dave's "ethics" is clear and convinced enough to be more than a little irritated that others would be playing guilty until proven innocent with him -- just my take.

Especially compared to the cult. Does anyone really doubt that the cult would throw you under the bus and destroy your credibility no matter how honest and ethical you were? Exmormons are some of the most courageous, honest and ethical people I have ever met. Does that matter at all to the cult? Nope.

The cult, along with its naive, deluded minions are only obsessed with assassinating every single exmormon's credibility, honesty and standing with any possible means, including innuendo, lies and suggestion. I personally don't understand the purpose of helping them.

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“The problem we face is that superstition and belief in magic are millions of years old, whereas science, with its methods of controlling for intervening variables to circumvent false positives, is only a few hundred years old”. Micheal Shermer

The press release only notes the sequence of events and never claims that there is a direct cause-and-effect relationship.

This happens all the time and you are not calling out those who authored pieces noting that the church came out with a doctrinal or policy statement and then, later, a mormon politician sponsored some legislation that endorses or promotes the same thing, and the article notes that there may be some linkage.

For example, people call attention to the cult's silly history of considering caffeine evil and then the church issues some statement that it is a market-driven decision at BYU to ban caffeine drinks, and then people obviously conclude the negative PR drove the church to disclaim the doctrine. What happens? FAIR (and Gordon, in particular) FREAKS out. There's NO relationship he claims. I guess it depends on whose ox is gored I guess, whatever. To note the sequence is hardly unethical.

As to plumbing the identities of the various posters. I guess I am still confused about the need to figure it all out.

Twede has credible evidence (that I have personally reviewed) that close family members outed him. How he came to know this and what he can do about it and what lines he should or should not cross to please anyone's sense of legitimate due diligence is his own business and he owes no one an accounting. My own sense of Dave's "ethics" is clear and convinced enough to be more than a little irritated that others would be playing guilty until proven innocent with him -- just my take.

Especially compared to the cult. Does anyone really doubt that the cult would throw you under the bus and destroy your credibility no matter how honest and ethical you were? Exmormons are some of the most courageous, honest and ethical people I have ever met. Does that matter at all to the cult? Nope.

The cult, along with its naive, deluded minions are only obsessed with assassinating every single exmormon's credibility, honesty and standing with any possible means, including innuendo, lies and suggestion. I personally don't understand the purpose of helping them.

C'mon, that's the kind of hairsplitting I'd expect from LDS apologists. The press release was deliberately worded to imply a causal connection between the events. The original Daily Beast story, based on an interview with David, did the same. Without the Romney connection, there's nothing to attract the attention of National media.

I don't see why the response to my asking a few simple and direct questions is an attack on my character. That's another move straight out of the LDS apologetic playbook.

It doesn't sound to me like you've tried to figure out what happened by stepping back and looking at all the evidence. Maybe it doesn't matter to you. It does matter to me. Only if you look at all the information that is out there from the stance of trying to figure out what happened can you understand why the questions I'm asking are important.

David used this site as a means of publicizing the events. I personally gave a small amount of assistance. I think I'm entitled to ask the questions. If David declines to answer, I'll draw my own conclusions from the facts I can verify.

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

I've just recieved a PM from David threatening to withdraw MormonThink's support of postmormon.org because of my posts. If looking for the truth jeopardizes postmormon.org in any way, I'm not willing to go there. I hereby resign as moderator. I've considered it a privilege to be able to associate with you all. For those I've hurt or offended, I'm sorry. I'll miss you all.

Best of luck in all that you do.

Brad

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

I've just recieved a PM from David threatening to withdraw MormonThink's support of postmormon.org because of my posts. If looking for the truth jeopardizes postmormon.org in any way, I'm not willing to go there. I hereby resign as moderator. I've considered it a privilege to be able to associate with you all. For those I've hurt or offended, I'm sorry. I'll miss you all.

Best of luck in all that you do.

Brad

PostMormon.Org has the whole-hearted support of the only person whose opinion means squat to me: Me. #### MormonThink in the ass. I have zero respect for someone who views a minor imbroglio and sees to the mediation of the problem by offering to bludgeon to death those involved. Nobody, NOBODY, no matter how pure his reputation or standing in the community, is above perfidy, under the appropriate circumstances.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but when someone leaps from quibbling about who said what, when, to "I'm gonna burn down your house if you don't shut up" I'll go with my gut that the likelihood is that someone's got something they don't want seen by the light of day.

Brad, while I have no say regarding your tenure here as a Moderator, i would it consider it a privilege and an honor if you would continue to moderate my posts, no matter what your official status turns out to be.

I've just recieved a PM from David threatening to withdraw MormonThink's support of postmormon.org because of my posts. If looking for the truth jeopardizes postmormon.org in any way, I'm not willing to go there. I hereby resign as moderator. I've considered it a privilege to be able to associate with you all. For those I've hurt or offended, I'm sorry. I'll miss you all.

Best of luck in all that you do.

Brad

Here is the relevant part of what I sent to Brad (with personal information removed):

Brad, I appreciate your autonomy and personal decision to decide the situation for yourself. I’ve tried giving you as much explanation as I am willing, but frankly, I can’t trust you like I can (another person). (cut)

So here is my personal view and decision: As you are a moderator of Postmo and since you insist that FAIR is more credible for some reason I am requesting that you remove my account from Postmo. If anyone registers under [my] name, you can assume it is a play by FAIR or other LDS sympathizers. I will be advocating to the other board members that Mormonthink no longer support Postmo. They may still support you, but I cannot.

Frankly, my priority is with my family regardless of FAIRs ridiculous claims to the otherwise. If you insist that I prove them false, you seem to be falling under the same constraint mormons have about proving fictitious claims of the book of mormon wrong. That is, proving a negative false.

Best wishes.

dave

If Brad wants to stop being a moderator, that is his choice. I asked that my account be removed from Postmo. My personal position is that if postmo want to bad mouth me and MT, then I will, as a single individual and only one of many board members at MT, advocate that we withdrawal support. However, I am not the deciding factor, just one vote of many.

I've just recieved a PM from David threatening to withdraw MormonThink's support of postmormon.org because of my posts. If looking for the truth jeopardizes postmormon.org in any way, I'm not willing to go there. I hereby resign as moderator. I've considered it a privilege to be able to associate with you all. For those I've hurt or offended, I'm sorry. I'll miss you all.

Best of luck in all that you do.

Brad

Wtf? Someone from MT needs to come on this thread put David in his place. No way MT would react this way regarding Brad's legitimate questions. For David to threaten the drop of support to Postmo over this is big time weak and goes agains everything I thought MT was about. I mean those people are tough and embrace debate and having the truth come out. Somebody needs to step up over there because we are not losing Brad over this. I mean the guy is simply incredible and patient and fair and drives way too much value to Postmo to step down over this. Brad I am going to tackle you because your not stepping down dude. If David is really threatening brad and Postmo in this way over this with the full support oc MT then well, I am shocked and this is bullshit. Drop MT cause we are keeping brad

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And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Dave, my posts weren't about you vs. FAIR. You keep trying to frame the issue that way, but it isn't. All I asked is which parts of what Scott Gordon said you considered to be a "smear" so that I could determine which facts the two of you disagree on.

It's been three weeks since this question about starlight012 posting on lds.net was raised. You saw it when it was raised on mormondiscussions and did not address whether it was, in fact, you. I asked it again, and rather than answer, you deleted the explanation you originally posted and responded by having Rodolfo post on your behalf.

It is entirely possible for the following things to both be true: (1) you posted as starlight012 on lds.net and (2) a member of your family confirmed your identity to Scott Gordon.

I asked you a few simple, straightforward questions, all of which you could have answered without causing any grief whatseover to your family. You responded by deleting the explanation you originally posted and then going to a postmormon.org trustee to try and get me to shut up. And let's not kid each other: you're not just a board member -- you are the high profile, publicly known, ex-mormon hero David Twede. You resorted to a threat against posmormon.org to try and shut me down.

Show me where I've asked you to prove a negative. You know better than that.

[edited to correct statement about conversation on mormondiscussions]

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Dave, my posts weren't about you vs. FAIR. You keep trying to frame the issue that way, but it isn't. All I asked is which parts of what Scott Gordon said you considered to be a "smear" so that I could determine which facts the two of you disagree on.

It's been three weeks since this question about starlight012 posting on lds.net was raised. You saw it when it was raised on mormondiscussions and did not address it. I asked it again, and rather than answer, you deleted the explanation you originally posted and responded by having Rodolfo post on your behalf.

It is entirely possible for the following things to both be true: (1) you posted as starlight012 on lds.net and (2) a member of your family confirmed your identity to Scott Gordon.

I asked you a few simple, straightforward questions, all of which you could have answered without causing any grief whatseover to your family. You responded by deleting the explanation you originally posted and then going to a postmormon.org trustee to try and get me to shut up. And let's not kid each other: you're not just a board member -- you are the high profile, publicly known, ex-mormon hero David Twede. You resorted to a threat against posmormon.org to try and shut me down.

Show me where I've asked you to prove a negative. You know better than that.

When these first surfaced, I wrote on MormDisc a single post that confirm my position today. These are silly accusations. In any event, I will not discuss further what involves my family. I have said this to you in private and asked you to respect my concerns about what it stress causes for my loved ones. Because Rodolfo also sits on the postmo board, and Brad is just one of many of you, I am apologizing for my outburst about requesting withdrawal of MT support. Postmo is also many people, and I shouldn't have been so hasty to judge it entirely from how one of you act. Now...I will state again one last time: These are silly accusations. This is my last post.

And to the folks at FAIR with entirely too much time on their hands: if you're going to cut and paste my posts here into your wiki, include this too:

FAIR should also be forthcoming with respect to its role in this affair. While it has posted starlight012's side of PM conversations, it should also fully disclose the other half of the conversations. Scott Gordon should also post a complete copy of the e-mail he sent to what he describes as several friends and what the NYT story describes as church officials in Salt Lake. Sauce for the goose and all that.

None of the questions I've asked of David excuse FAIR and Scott Gordon's role in this incident. A decent circumstantial case can be made this was a most un-Christlike hit job on a website that has been a thorn in FAIR's side.

And yes, postmos, I'm not kidding about the cutting and pasting in the FAIR wiki. And they wonder why many think their church is a cult.

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Just because I think it's instructive of how FAIR operates, they have misrepresented my post to them here and neatly evaded the issues I raised with them. They apparently are glued to exmormon sites looking for quote mining opportunities.

Here's what appears on their site now:

The moderator then challenged FAIR to include in the Wiki (presumably on this page) the other half of the PM's involving "starlight012" and whatever information Scott Gordon passed on to people in Salt Lake regarding Twede's activities. The moderator went on to note that "[n]one of the questions I've asked of David excuse FAIR and Scott Gordon's role in this incident. A decent circumstantial case can be made this was a most un-Christlike hit job on a website that has been a thorn in FAIR's side. And yes, postmos, I'm not kidding about the cutting and pasting in the FAIR wiki. And they wonder why many think their church is a cult." [27]

According to Scott Gordon,

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I forwarded the links of [Twede's] public blog to some of my friends. The New York Times reporter who called said my email was forwarded to Twede’s stake president. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. I did not speak with any of his local leaders, nor did I send an email to them. I told the reporter it was more likely one of his local ward members had read his public blog and told the stake president, but she insisted I was the source as she heard that from David Twede himself.

Check upthread. I didn't ask for "whatever information Scott Gordon passed on to people in Salt Lake regarding Twede's activities." That would be a silly request becuase I've already read Gordon's description of what he sent. The NYT article cites him as saying he sent them to Church leaders in Salt Lake. Gordon's statement on the FAIR website, says he forwarded it to "some of my friends." Both may be true, but FAIR is evading the issue. Gordon tries to make itsound as if he wasn't trying to initiate church discipline against Twede. The text of Gordon's e-mail, including re lines and the names of who he sent it to are evidence of his intent in sending the e-mail.

The other half of the PM conversation with starlight012 has not been posted. Perhaps it will be soon.

Note this explanation also from FAIR:

It should be reiterated that FAIR was initially informed of Twede's activities by "starlight012," not by a Twede relative. The LDS.net poster "starlight012" never provided FAIR with their first or last name, and only communicated with FAIR through LDS.net PM (Private Message). "Starlight012" informed a member of FAIR of Twede's name on September 10, 2012. Finally, "starlight012" never contacted Scott Gordon or communicated with him directly in any fashion. We are unsure what constituted a "smear" on the part of Scott Gordon, and expect that Twede will clarify this at some point in the future.

If FAIR doesn't know starlight012's name, then they can't know that starlight012 is not a Twede relative. So why do they say that? Obviously starlight012 did not communicate with "FAIR" through LDS.net -- he or she communicated with an individual. Who was it? Note that FAIR never denies that Scott Gordon spoke with a relative of David's. It says that FAIR was not "initially" informed of Dave's activities by a Twede relative. It doesn't say that Gordon never spoke with one of Dave's relatives. FAIR also says that starlight012 never communicated with Gordon. If they don't know who starlight012 is, how can they know that. But, again, they never say there was no communication between Gordon and one of Dave's relatives.

You have to parse every single sentence uttered by a FAIR representative. They excel at putting words together that may form a literally true statement, but complete obscure the truth.

So c'mon FAIR, post the full e-mail. Post the other half of the PM conversation. Post whether Scott Gordon ever spoke to one of David's relatives. If you're going to post a lenghty hit piece on someone, at least have the basic human decency to post the full story.

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

It seems totally weird to me to have a "conversation" where my half appears here and yours appears in your wiki. I cordially invite you to mormondiscussions to hash things out. It's on topic there, and not so much here.

Brad

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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.