I can speculate it is because the foundation has the impressions that fool the bees into believing it is the start of comb. Bees do not see a flat sheet as the core of comb. When bees build natural comb, there it no flat core. Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?

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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

I have had the buggers build some (not a lot) of comb ON the vertical sides of some of my all foam nucs when they ran out of space on combs and I’ve had them completely ignore the PF frames that didn’t have enough wax. So in my mind, it’s a crap shoot, but I will bet on you Drew.

My jumbo hives have frames that are 14.5” deep. I just use 1 and half plastic pierco foundations to build them. It provides mechanical support and keeps the big combs flat. If the big combs start getting wonky on you, then you have a REAL mess. The other reason I use plastic foundation in my jumbo brood frames is because I want as many workers in those frames as possible. I give the bees room above the brood to raise drones and do my drone/mite culling. If the bees mix drones and workers on one giant frame, it would be difficult to do drone/mite culling (if you want to do that).

Because a beekeepers put foundations in there. There is 150 years experience that it is a fine job. Bees do not need them, but beekeepers do.Bees need only a dark cavity where to build their nest

No one use foundations for fun. It is quite a job to make wire holes into frame pieces, wire them and set expencive foundations.

Many think that they are better humans when they do not use foundations and they use natural combs. Nothing new in that. So they all did 150 years ago. A beekeeper is not at least better human if the bees do his all work.

***********************Matthew said 6:26-30

Look at the birds in the sky! They don’t plant or harvest. They don’t even store grain in barns. Yet your Father in heaven takes care of them. Aren’t you worth more than birds?

At least Matthew did not know much about biology like about bees or squirrels but many keeps him as a wise guy..

Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?

No, but in all things beekeeping once a solution is found and accepted there is no looking forward for other solutions. Keep in mind that the beekeeping industry is focused on serving the needs of commercial beekeepers not the back yard beekeeper.

No, but in all things beekeeping once a solution is found and accepted there is no looking forward for other solutions.

I don't disagree, but going from foundation with impressions to flat wax is going backwards. The logical progression would have been flat sheet (did not work) and then advance forward to impressions.

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Keep in mind that the beekeeping industry is focused on serving the needs of commercial beekeepers not the back yard beekeeper.

I wasn't referring to the industry, but to the independent "natural" foundation producers like Fat Beeman, Dee Lusby and others. It is a lot of work to produce foundation by hand and a lot of expense to invest in a mill. If it was as simple as dipping a wet board into melted wax, a lot more people would be making their own foundation, myself included.

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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

If it was as simple as dipping a wet board into melted wax, a lot more people would be making their own foundation, myself included.

This is still old technology...I am still thinking of using a non woven material that is soaked in wax like the window screen then build up the hex pattern with a printing method or punch out the centers and let the bees fill in between.

That the impressions are key is logical to me, I figured my method was way... to easy. How are impressions made w/other methods ? I assume there is a roller I could buy to press honeycomb design in wax ? Also saw foundation machine on other site that looks as if it could be approximated with honeycomb mold and foam insulation, making sheets like waffles ? In any case, I'll try a bunch of things and report results.

How are impressions made w/other methods ? I assume there is a roller I could buy to press honeycomb design in wax ? Also saw foundation machine on other site that looks as if it could be approximated with honeycomb mold and foam insulation, making sheets like waffles ? In any case, I'll try a bunch of things and report results.

Yes, there are basically two methods.

1) take a sheet of wax and run it through a mill that pressed the cell pattern into the wax. This requires much less wax as it produces a thinner foundation and it tends to be more consistent. It is also the most costly as mills typically run over $1000.2) Molds tend to be less exact and require 2x or more wax to make. I have tried making molds out of concrete, water putty, and silicone caulking. Creating a mold can be challenging as it needs to hinge and if you look at natural comb (or foundation) you will notice that cells are offset from side to side. I tried creating them with both 4.9 wax foundation and 4.9 plastic foundation. It is difficult to get all the air bubbles out and wax foundation can easily be marred and/or damaged which is then reproduced on every sheet. Also pouring liquid wax into the mold and squeezing the excess out is messy and can be difficult if wax temperature is too low. Also getting the foundation to release both in making the mold and in manufacturing sheets can be challenging. I have seen new silicone molds available for sale that look nice, but even with a good mold, you still have all the issues when pouring/squeezing/releasing.

Ultimately it became apparent to me that foundationless, although it has it's own issues, is much easier if you want to get away from commercial foundation and is more natural for the bees. Most of my experimenting was done when I was trying to regress to small cell. Since then I have been able to go chemical free with large bees and have gone back to commercial foundation for it's ease

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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

Two options you can try:Use two sheet of plastic foundation with the thin sheet of wax in the middle then just run the sandwich between to flat surfaced rolls like a ringer washing machine. If you have access to a CNC mill and can cut the impressions in two plates I know that will work. You will have to register the two metal plates so the high and the low points mesh together. This might be the hardest thing to do with the plastic foundation. CNC Milling of aluminum plates should be far cheaper than the roll form. The average bee keeper could make the nip roller machine.

Use two sheet of plastic foundation with the thin sheet of wax in the middle then just run the sandwich between to flat surfaced rolls like a ringer washing machine.

This won't work, you will end up with bumps instead of cells

Yes, you are correct. I forgot about the cell walls. The cell walls might make it tough to separate the aluminum plates with the walls going up into them but they could be machined. Maybe a progressive die would work where you are embossing just a row or two at a time.

Finski, what do you think the orientals are using on the rolls as a release agent? Soap and water?