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FAQ How can you be an atheist Jew?

An atheist is one who disbelieves in (or denies) the existence of God, Gods, and other supernatural beings.
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew, or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

November 15, 2007

Who Is Crazier: Young Earth Creationists or Holocaust Deniers?

I started a thread over at Raving Atheists, but the topic is good enough for a blog post, so here goes. Not word for word; I'm going to edit the original post a bit:

I think Holocaust deniers are crazier than YECs (Young Earth Creationists). A YEC is someone who has been brainwashed since a young age (in most cases) to believe that the bible is a guide to everything, from science to moral behavior.They look at science, and accept anything that isn't contrary to the bible, but then twist anything that contradicts the bible, to fit the bible. I'm not talking theistic evolutionists, who twist the bible to fit science. Theistic evolutionists don't deny reality, they just add to reality.Holocaust denial is a different issue. I believe in most cases, that one dislikes Jews before they become a denier. It is more complicated than just disliking Jews. Just like YECs when it comes to evidence of evolution, Holocaust deniers do not accept anything that confirms the Holocaust, from actual videos, to first hand testimony by both survivors and the actual Nazis themselves {which includes the testimony at the Nuremberg trial), are totally dismissed as lies or acts of coercion or the result of tortured "confessions" by the Allies. Meanwhile, they have their own sites which are equal to Fundy science sites, and they use the same techniques as well (example, partial quotes while ignoring mounds of evidence to the contrary).I think Holocaust denial occurs mostly with plain old paranoid Jew hating conspiracy theorists, Muslim conspiracy theorists, and to those with Germanic ancestry, where denial is a psychological response to their possible humiliation, that a people (the Jews), who many Germans historically didn't like (a lot of this had to do with the "Jews killed Christ" Catholic thingy and of course, the usual scapegoat thingy at a time of economic hardship), wound up getting sympathy after the Germans lost the war in a very large way. It was a kick in the teeth that the Jews (who many German regarded as their lessers) were getting world sympathy. and the survivors were evidence of a hideous regime of seemingly proud every day Germans. It is a test in cognitive dissonance.

I think a normal response would be not to deny the Holocaust happened, I say that because as an atheist, and as an ethnic/cultural Jew, I often have the Bolshevik revolution, and the deaths caused by atheists or worse, atheist Jews, thrown in my face.My response is to disassociate myself from the people who committed the heinous crime against humanity, realizing that Communism is an ideology (nothing to do with being an atheist or a Jew), and the fact that power corrupts.But the last thing I'm going to do is say it didn't happen, or try to rewrite the intentions of the people involved or question the amount of dead innocents (because I'm not crazy).I don't hold a grudge against the German people at all, but I do hold a grudge against the deniers, even though I think they have to be insane to go to the extent they do.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that I just joined a forum called The Liberty Forum (which is supposed to be a Libertarian forum, not Stormfront), and I was attacked from every direction by Jew haters. From Protocols of Zion bs, to my support for Israel (ok I've been attacked here too on that one), to Jewish control of the world, to blatant Holocaust denial ("a few Jews died in camps of Typhoid").My introduction thread took on a life of its own. What I found really weird is that hardly anyone actually came to say the Holocaust is fact. I had next to no support.Here is a link to the Liberty Forum thread for anyone interested. It isn't a pretty thread, and I do wind up calling, those deserving, names. My cyber stalker Rickey even shows up (under the name Rick Carsten).

The Raving Atheist forum thread again, where by the way, one denier showed up and I did get a lot of support, though the thread strayed from my original question. Right away I was asked if I thought moon landing deniers were crazier than flat earthers'. I gave this response:

"I think flat earthers' are (more insane). But it is an interesting comparison to my question. Flat earthers' represent bible brainwashed people who are denying just about every aspect of science to make their bible correct, while moon lander deniers are rejecting a historical event.But moon lander deniers are also denying science (many think we didn't have the capabilities to get to the moon) and many just think it was all part of a conspiracy theory. But the motive is the important thing when it comes to why they are denying...this is what makes one more insane than the other. So I guess it depends on the moon landing deniers motives for denying."

9 comments:

I think there is a basic difference between Holocaust Deniers and YEC's. Whereas the Holocaust deniers are motivated by hate to justify their beliefs the YEC's are just trying to fit facts into their belief system. Although both groups may be equally stupid or not, it is more important to identify which group has the potential to cause more harm and suffering and that is obviously the Holocaust Deniers. You can laugh at the YEC's but not at the Holocaust Deniers. s

Well, I have heard Holocaust deniers who were also just conspiracy theorist nutjobs. Jews-controlling-the-world really appeals to conspiracy theorists, and half the time I wonder if they wouldn't reject ANYTHING as long as the government said it's true.

The thing about Flat Earthers is that the earth has been known to be curved, at least, since the Egyptians (Lost in the Dark Ages, but recovered in the Renaissance-- the whole "Everyone thought Columbus was gonna sail off the earth" story is a myth). Plus anyone can SEE the effect of the earth being spherical if they stand at the edge of the ocean, or climb up a high tower in a flat plain, pr ride in an airplane on a clear day...

I consider people who deny incredibly obvious evidence that is before their very eyes, evidence they were taught to be fact since they were children, to be worse than anything else on that list. It's a bit like denying that there is a physical difference between a white guy and a black guy.

Lex, if you are talking physical danger, I would say the Holocaust deniers are more dangerous, but the reality is they are now all voice and most of the planet believe they are loons.YECs on the other hand still have an influence over government in the West because their numbers are so high (at least in the US). It is very dangerous for a YEC to be in power especially if they are a Rapurist...mainly because they have a chance to win. Also they are the ones pushing against gay rights, and evolution in the classroom.

Basiorana, the motives of a flat earther are not like the motives of a Holocaust denier. The motives to me makes the Holocaust denier more insane. The flat earther has been brainwashed that the bible is the only fact book you need, and anything contrary to it, is simply wrong. When a flat earther goes outside, he only sees a flat earth, and that is all he needs to satisfy him, and he isn't motivated by irrational hate just irrational teachings.

Jack, you should link that thread on your blog. You will do your audience a great service by doing so.

Basically, I think all deniers are crazy. I voted for "Flat Earthers" because they're so cuuuute...

On Communism, I think it's inaccurate to claim these were atheists. Similar to Nazism, the communists instigated a personality cult, including strong symbolism, blind obedience and state institutions to reinforce that. It had all the hallmarks of a religion but without the Celestial Social Worker. Hitchens refers to them as "Deists".

That kind of instigation of unconditional reverence as a method of social control is very similar to what organised religions are used for (at least at their worst).

As an atheist I couldn't see myself having to worship someone like Hitler or Stalin.

Gert, one definition for atheist is one who denies the existence of God or Gods. And I don't think atheists are crazy for denying God, and either do you, though there are some crazy atheists out there.I do think many of the Communist leaders were atheists in the plainest form: Do you believe in God? Yes or No. No=atheist.

I am not sure about the percentage of really mental cases in all of these categories. But my gut feeling tells me that there are less mentally ill people in the ranks of Holocaust deniers than we'd like to think.