‘Muslim’ Organization offers to help school ban…Niqab

The entire story can be found here. In the words of AbdurRahman…..brazen. Also to note, I am not saying these people are not muslim due to my quotes around muslim, I am merely questioning their Islam due to their actions and speech openly disbelieving or opposing the fundamentals of the deen. Pro-regressives as someone termed it and Allah Knows Best!

Muslim organisation offers to help school ban full-face veil
by NEIL SEARS

……The school fears it could face financial ruin if it takes on a 12-year-old girl in the High Court, after her father gained legal aid to argue it is her “human right” to wear the niqab – which covers all of her face except her eyes – in classes.

…….

The chairman of the 500-strong Meco organisation, Taj Hargey, said in his letter to the school that the full-face veil was not a requirement of Islam, and that the girl’s father was being unreasonable.

Dr Hargey said: “We are strongly committed to offering you our full and unequivocal support in banning face-masks at school.

…

He noted that the school already allows many Asian girls to wear the headscarf, and added that he was prepared to lead a national Muslim protest and fundraising effort against what he called

“this largely Saudi-driven campaign to make the niqab a compulsory requirement for Muslim women”.

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38 Responses to “‘Muslim’ Organization offers to help school ban…Niqab”

“questioning their Islam due to their actions and speech openly disbelieving or opposing the deen”

“full-face veil was not a requirement of Islam” says Dr.Hargey

I am usually on the other side of this, but unless I misunderstood the story, how is believing that niqab is NOT a fard (i.e. not a requirement) “openly disbelieving or opposing the deen.” Niqab not being fard is a vaild opinion (i think!).

Did I miss anything?

At the same time I think we can definitely question their methodology and maybe their motive (possibly based on the organization’s history).
Also trying to organize a “national” movement against a more “conservative” but respected opinion (calling niqab fard) is also not appropriate and goes against the whole concept of plurality.

How are you akhi? After reading the article I felt a bit sad, tense and revolted all at the same time. Why would I feel as such? Because I have noticed a great deal of intolerance coming from inside the Muslim community particularly in the UK where people are confused as to how they should blend in with society and still remain Muslim.

Intolerance today is not expressed against Muslims by non-Muslims or Muslims to non-Muslims but we have the phenomena now that intolerance is coming from Muslims towards other Muslims and at times when some Muslims are trying to secure their rights in a open society –“democracy”.

Who are these Muslims that are speaking against other Muslims to paint a face of moderation according to their definition? And why are these folk giving a one sided fatwa to justify what they think is in sync with the society?

Yes, the Niqab is not wajib for some of the schools but it is wajib for the school of Imam Ahmad {r} and becasue that opinion is there in Islamic law and practiced by a good deal of Muslims despite the fact some might go with the the opinion that it is not wajib then we need to secure our right to pratice that opinion present in Islamic tradition.

There are two issues at play here from the perspective what is at stake for citizens living in a secular society and secondly what this means for Muslims living in secular society.

The first issue is that our dear brothers who are so sincere in trying to demonstrate to the society they inhabit that they are not “hostile combants” and that they are capable of “integration” are fighting to concede civil liberties without necessity.

Not only are they conceding the civil liberties of Muslims by fighting against the niqab but they are also conceding the civil liberties of the greater society –non-Muslims as well by fighting against the niqab.

Likewise, these brothers who I love but disagree with have joined the ideological war against Islam in which symbols of Islam like: wudhu, the beard, the turban, the niqab, the Qur’an have been “tagged” as of terrorists and terrorism.

So I would say two things here it is not the right of any Muslim to deprive the other to practice a valid ijtihad secondly it is not the right of any Muslim to undermine the right of their sister to practice the wearing of the hijab.

Primarily, what they claim and how they claim it is not justified by Islamic tradtion and it is also an encroachment on the freedom of religion of which the sisters who wear niqab are giving the right to exercise in a secular society.

So we must be people of ettiquette but we must affrim the right of Muslim women to wear niqab if they commit themselves to that legal opinion as expressed in Islamic tradition.

Those who say that the push for the Niqab is a Saudi effort are devoid of knowing the whole picture that is far from true and this doesnt mean we agree with Saudia the opinion is there is the books of fiqh.

Please, for the sake of Allah {swt} be careful as to what you say regarding other Muslims and Deen in paricular lest you speak without knowledge and cause others to go astray with a baseless opinion.

And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers – We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination. (anNisaa’ v. 115)

Even if it was not obligatory, I haven’t really heard anyone from one of the madhabs say it wasn’t even sunnah. And here these people are directly opposing something that is guidance form the Prophet (sal Allahu ‘alayhi wa Sallam)

AS
This stage of da’wah requires us to have wisdom for we are dealing with a few platforms: One, Muslims who have no real understanding of Islam and object whatever they feel is not correct this is close to the school of the Mutazila who judge good and evil to be defined by reason and not revelation and then we have Muslims who claim the Sunnah but are obsessed with militancy and then we have apathetics and then we have those trying to practice and the rest of those who are struggling. The categories can be expanded or changed around but the point is to try to draw up a map of what is there without being too judgmental, we need to map the community sociological.

Two: we need to come to terms with how we will live in the West or else make hijra for those who cant come to terms with living in the West.

With this in mind we have to address the people of the larger society by the reality of Islam and how Islam builds society and does not destroy it. Plus have good ettiquette and participate in the society in a postive impact. And also be educated and wealthy.

This will hep da’wah and also for us to secure our rights if not then we need to make hijrah but we cant leave the situation the way that it is.

“it is pretty evident form this he doesn’t consider the Sunnah of the Prophet (sal Allahu ‘alayhi wa Sallam) as a source of our religion. …which is a fundamental…dont you agree??”

Danish:

I do not think you can fairly extract this from his statements or actions. Some consider niqab to be cultural and not a “religious” sunnah of the Prophet (saw). This goes to that whole urf thing and what is Islam and what is cultural throughout the ages …

Long and short, we need to analyze this situation from a proper prespective. A discussion about niqab or other debatable issues should not include an argument about whether people “consider the Sunnah” or not because most try to engage the sunnah and the principles laid down by our scholars to form opinions.

Instead this topic should be pursued with that attitude that there is plurality in islam. There are multiple opinions on issues which have been respected by scholars of the past and present and that we should not ridicule or interfere with Muslims trying to implement those scholarly opinions (whether its to wear niqab or hijab …).

Freedom of Religion and plurality in islam are central forces that make these muslims and their efforts appear distasteful. I think brother Abul Hussein’s comments are very appropriate.

To extend this discussion, this example and the Channel 4 dispatches both point to a larger historical pattern that has been the cause of the demise of the Muslims: disunity and stabbing other Muslims in the back. Unfortunately, this type of behavior has become a sunnah of the ummah and I believe has been a major cause of our decline.

This is very sad indeed, that Muslims would actually support taking away the right of their fellow Muslim to follow the Deen the way they believe in it.

Yes, some people think that the niqaab is fardh; others don’t think so. My parents are somewhere in the middle – my mom wears niqaab, but she doesn’t think it’s fardh; she just thinks that it’s a way of getting closer to Allah and that there is strong evidence for it in the Qur’an and Sunnah.

The Muslims who insist that niqaab is something bad and something that should be discouraged/banned are very disappointing to me – they’re usually the same types of people who are always protesting against stuff like forced marriages and FGM and what have you. So, shouldn’t it be amongst their principles that they don’t support forcing anyone to do (or not do) anything? In which case, they’re betraying their own principles if they’re saying that niqaab should be banned (i.e. that Muslim women should be forced to NOT wear it)!

Mind you, I have another question – the niqaabi in question is only 12 years old! Is it even obligatory for her to wear it at that age (i.e. if she hasn’t achieved puberty yet). And, has anyone bothered asking HER about what she thinks on this matter?

just goes to show you that we as Muslims can be our own worst enemies. Instead of trying to “Free Palestine” in our slogans…..or boycotting Starbucks…

How about we speak the truth of the authentic Sunnah of The Prophet SAAWS? Why let such misguided people carry the loudest voice of the day?

Finally, the issue here isn’t simply that he has a problem with the Niqab — which he obviously does — rather, he has a problem with his Islamic Methodology.

Allah knows best but I think such narrow-minded thinking (regarding the niqab) and ignorance toward traditional Islamic teaching are among the central issues at the heart of the decline of the Ummah of Muhammad (saaws)…

lol, yo danish i got slaughtered on haramica for defending niqaab, after some one posted this article…

also im a firm believer that niqaab is waajib, itake the hanbali position. but it’s interesting to note that even hanafi and shafii ulema consider it waajib due to ‘fitnah’.

e.g.

Hanafi Mujtahid ‘Alim Damaadafaandi (داماد افندي )after mentioning the words in al-muntaqaa that state that a woman covers her face when she fears fitnah,

“And in our times (zamaaninaa) the forbiddance (of uncovering the face – kashf) is waajib, rather it is Fardh due to the ghalabah (governance, domination, etc) of Fasaad (all types of evil such as zinaa specifically). And it is reported from ‘Aa’ishah that all of the free woman is ‘awrah except for one of her eyes, so this is adequate (or i.e. considered), due to the actuation of the necessity (dhuroorah).”

Since I feel the need to defend myself here. I would start by saying that the issue of niqab being fard or wajib is related to understanding the evidences. I am a little sad that the issue about whether the Sunnah is a basis for me or for others came up. If my emotion was a little more acute I would be ready to engage in a verbal box but since I refuse the net minhaj I will take it in another direction.

How many people know that Sheikh Al Albani {r} did not consider the Niqab wajib based on his evidences and he has a few books out on it –again I said a few books not articles or a few hadiths but a few books full of evidence and discourse to illustrate the strength of his ijithad. Now the scholars agree if there is “fitna” invovled because the sister will be molested or she is young and beautiful then the niqab becomes wajib.

On the other hand, Imam Malik {r} say the niqab when worn around Muslims as a form of rigidity.

And could go on and on but I am not writing a research paper on niqab. We have to be clear on Da’wah strategy and various opinions rooted in proofs and valid ijtihads. In the West we have a unique situation that needs care and attention. I ask out of my right as a Muslim brother on bhealf of myself and others dont turn the blogs into a circuit for discussing who is on the Sunnah and who is not. Be careful with that or else someone might take your good deeds on the day of judgment for backbiting.

There are two ways we can deal with da’wah we can fight each other or we can work with each other. We have fought enough so now it is time to defend our rights to practice rather than fight about how to practice. And as I said in another arena those who think they are qualified to say who is on the minhaj and who is not then we need you to teach classes rather than engage is a 5 percenter like battle where we use the power of words to destroy.

Forgive me for being a bit rough but I thought this was an important issue that was given attention –the issue of niqab which has various ahkam according to the Imams of this Ummah I was sad and am sad to see that some used this opportunity we have to discuss our plight to make it into a probe on Aqeeda.

The hukm for the person who denies the Sunnah as a source of revelation intentionally is to be outside the fold of Islam. If a person wants to analyze this matter from a sociological point it does not mean he is against the Sunnah where did that come from give me the dalil to that methodology and what teachers have taught you that method.

Let us go beyong the net minhaj of bash and dash and solve our problems. Excatly, what took place here right now is why the Muslims in the UK cant agree to work together in defence of the niqab even if the majority opinion of the scholars is that it is not wajib.

By the wy my wife is a niqabi and I like my beard and to have my garment above the ankle but to me the Sunnah is much more than that it is revelation and an explantion of the Qur’an.

We must learn that differences in fiqh exist even among the Salafi dawah and then we have to be mature. As for now, “lets work it out” like men who care about the sisters and the way the community is going, please. let us move beyond the fitna and begin to better the community.

How many people yesterday were searching and today they claim the truth? Have you forgotten that people are still searching so dont push them away be there for them and let them know you have their backs is not that the minhaj of the salaf and if it is not check me? Is the minhaj of the salaf practice or talk? Is the minhaj of the salaf unity or disunity? Is the minhaj of the salaf only talking about bidah and who is with us? If it is how was deen spread throughout the world in 30 years?

Shaitan is playing with us as the Muslim world falls into internal chaos and poverty stikes we take the luxury to stage verbal battles online. What about masjid aqsa?

At stake here is a serious matter and that is how will we relate to the legal systems in the West. It is one thing to give an opinion from Shariah and claim that that opinion is the soundest it is another issue to have one opinion from many backed by the legal apparatus in the country that you live in. So we have to be careful how we handle these matters the likes of the hijab ban in the Uk.

Case in point, in the US the niqab was allowed to be worn when taking a photo for one’s license my inlaws and wife had pictures like this –official licesenses. Then came a group of Muslims and said niqab is not wajib so the sisters lost this right. It was more appropriate for them to take the opinion it was so that they secure their rights and those of others who follow the ijtihad and evidences that indicate to it being obligatory.

Recently, there was a national discussion about Niqab in the court system in the US. I discussed the matter with a brother for maybe 3 or 4 hours will we listened to the program and after it finished. The program that hosted the discussion was National Public Radio perhaps you can hear the discussion from their archives. Queen Rania of Jordon supposed said according to media reports so I cant confirm she said it that the niqab is not wajib and that you dont have to practice Islam.

So the issue of Niqab in the West is a major issue because it involves the law and your rights as a citizen. Think about how you will deal with this issue more than being concerned about the methodology of the other that is a distraction.

the top of the flag, which is covered by the text says something like ‘azmait allah’ (phrases in urdu would mean something like Allah’s favor or blessing, my urdu isn’t very good(i probably didnt even read the top right) and the bottom says ‘ya usman’ referring to the ‘nizaam’ at the time this flag was made who’s name was Nizam ‘Usman’ Ali Khan.

well anyway the flag’s center emblem, popular folklore says that it was some sufi saint stuff, but there are a few papers that say the basis of the emblem in the middle is not the sufi saint folklore but something else, it is debateable.

This is why I detest to comment on forums or read forums because a lot of ignorance is manifested. I will say kindly for the sake of Allah {swt} and my brother-hood to you ex-bloger have adab akhi. Your Arabic is off and second your reading arabic in english so don’t be so fundamentalist in your reading. If you want to be exact write it in real arabic if not have adab akhi. Have adab. At present there is no standard way to write arabic in english except according to the orientalist system are you using that?

If you dont want to talk but attack asalaamu alaikum akhi. Why could you not say brothers try to use alam because I think the Arabic can be better written in english as such.

If I present what you said to the people of knowledge you would be questioned for using the examples you did akhi it is not befitting to make points like that and second it is not befitting to use your method of correction. Stay on the topic of discussion why did you deviate from the topic and shoot in a different direction? Again this attitude in dealing with Muslims is the same attitude that is causing problems between Muslims in the UK.

“Whoever believes in Allah {swt} and the last day either say what is good or be quiet…. Muwatta Imam Malik {r}Imam Dar Al Hijra.

Allahu Alim Wa Al’aa

And to be correct there is no real Alim except Allah {swt} who has perfect knowledge human beings possess marifa which is a mixture of knowledge and speculation

Reflect on this a bit akhi ex-bloger Ihope it benefits you despite how you might feel;

I narrate to you with my isnad given to me by my Shaikh Al Muhadith Saad Al Jawash {h} connected to the Prophet {saw} by three different chains that Imam Nawawi related {said}: Narrated on the authority of Abi Hamza Anas Ibn Malik {r} The servant of the Prophet {saw} on the nabi {saw} he said: “None of you believes until you love for your brother what you love for your self.” Bukhari

assalamlikum akhi abuhussein… first of all, let me commend you on your blog mashallah… it is an awesome effort, may Allah reward you much and I hope you will continue the good work.

Pls allow me to defend br. ex-blogger. He does indeed know Arabic, he is a graduate of an islamic university. You see, he has a brazen sense of humor, and I can say almost of surety that he did not mean offense or “misadab” to you. Those who know him, ‘get his style’. That is the problem with online stuff, you can’t see facial expressions, so you don’t know whether a person is serious or not.

Also, while we are on this tangent, I am interested in knowing what is the correct arabic for ‘allah knows best’. From what I know, ‘wallahu a’lam” is that. I am not sure if you meant this and just used a different transliteration, or if you indeed did mean Allah is the Alim, which I guess would be technically correct as well. So, what is the common usage?

Akhi Amad, Thanks for your brotherly spirit and coming up with an excuse for your brother that is to be commended highly and actually it cooled the fire so to speak. I am thrown aback that we could be so rigid with english as it i arabic that is one second jest using Allah {swt} is serious and can lead to “kufr.” That is the point. I do not understand really what is going on with brothers. Since when does a student of knowledge take to joking in such a manner on a public forum? And from whence do we take to attacking each other?

It is interesting I was talking to a brother about the comment and said you know I believe exblogger might be a non-Muslim trying to enter Muslim forums and cause problems and I said this trying to make an excuse for Muslims. But I will be honest I doubt I will comment again after finding out that not only is the brother a Muslim but he “graduated” from an Islamic University. So what should be the case is that we are studying from the brother rather than debating about english.

Also, where are you getting your standardization of transliteration from the only system there is is that of the orientalists.

We use the letter “A” in english to mean both Alf and Ein where are the diacritical marks? This is silly stuff and it took away from the original aim of the post. For this I rather go read or review for a class.

After Praising Allah & His Messenger, I’d like to take this opportunity to offer a brief clarification of some of the comments and the accusations hurled against by our brother, Shaukani.

Before I address some of the major issues and accusations that Allah knows were unfairly lodged against me, I’d like to simply start off by pointing out a couple of grammatical alterations that our brother Shaukani can make to inshallah further his study of Arabic grammar and english transliteration:

1. With regards to “AS”, I’d like to point out that the majority of the people on ibnalhyderabadee’s blog do not formally use “As-Salaamu-`Alaykum Warahmatullaahi Wabarakaatuhu” so there is no need for abbreviating this statement to “AS”. In fact this rule goes for PBUH, SWT for the scholars of Islam do not usually abbreviate such things out of adab for Arabic the language of the Quran. May I assume that you use “AS” out of fear that your transliteration might not be completely in line with the so called “orientalist” view in transliterating things.

2. Secondly, you started out with “Wa Allahi”- a statement that you have forgotten the importance of it. Allah says in the Quran, “Wala-Tajalullaha Urdatan Li-Aymaanikum”. And do not make Allah something of lightness in your oaths. I would advice myself first and foremost that a man who swears before any form of “refutation” is usually upset from the fire of Shaytaan and would like to rant and let it lose. So please take the advice of the Prophet in which the Arab man said to him (peace be upon him: Do not be angry, Do not be angry, Do not be angry

3. Thank for for advising me to have “adab” for we all need to learn the ways of the scholars in which they say, “Al-Adab Qabla At-Talab”. Knowledge before seeking (of knowledge).

4. I truly do not believe that my Arabic is off for verily I’ve studied Arabic for over 6 years from various books such as Al-Ajroomiyyah, Alfiyyah ibn Maalik and Tawdeeh An-Nahu while I was studying in Medina. I don’t seem to see a problem in being fundamentally hardcore in precision in Arabic. For verily Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said, “Knowledge is from the religion, And Knowing the religion is Fard, Waajib (obligatory). And what can be only be completed which is obligatory must be obligatory itself”. He Rahimahullaah was referring to the importance of Arabic. I believe that carefulness is a characteristic of a believer for only the careless ones will find themselves trying to clean up after themselves. Why shouldn’t we be careful with the language of the Quran?

5. Also, after studying dawah in Medina, I must say that you don’t know the jargon of the internet for just like how Amad said, “You don’t see facial expressions.” So every setting has its suitable jargon. I didn’t come to your site to say this but rather it was Ibn Al-Hyderabadee’s site which I commented on. And the scholars have said, “Li Kulli Maqaamin Maqaal Wa Li Kulli Haadith Hadeeth.” For every place there is a statement (suitable for it) and for for every event there is (suitable) speech for it.” I feel that you have not grasped the internet jargon and sarcasm that I used such as magnum cum laude this and that. I think that you missed my “:)” at the end of that note for verily it was sign of my “just kidding” factor. I think you missed that. Let me do it again :)

6. For you to defend you arabic incorrect transliteration, not acknowledging your mistake is fatal and repugnant. You tried to cover it up by saying that this is an orientalist version that I am using. I don’t seem to see what’s wrong with using a transliterated version invented by anyone as long as it doesn’t contradict the morals and manners of Islam. So to speak, there is an orientalist book called “Mujam Al-Mufahras Al-Ahadeeth” by Weinsingh (not sure the spelling of the author name). This person was an orientalist that categorized all the ahadeeth into a big massive index styled book so that he could “attack” Islam. This book was so organized that his zealotry in attacking Islam became something that Muslims hadeeth scholars found useful to tracking ahadeeth. Are we going to say that these Ulama/Muhaditheen are now wrong something haram for using what an orientalist came up with?
7. For you to say that Allah could be characterized as “Alim”, this a perverted fashion which you donned on to cover your mistakes. Allah is not characterized as Alim but Al-Aleem the all knowledgeable for it is that Aqeedah of the Ahli Sunnah Wal-Jamaah as mentioned in Al-Qawaaid Al-Muthlaa by Ibn Uthaymeen that the belief of “us” ahli sunnah is that we characterize Allah by how he and his Prophet peace upon him characterized Allah as. As for the verses in the Quran that say Alimul Ghaybe Wash-Shahaadah, you can see that it’s been made a ‘mudaaf’ but never do you find anywhere in the sunnah or the Quran where it says Allah is Alim. Also, no where in the Latin languages or Romance languages that includes Dutch, English, French, Spanish etc does “I” have the “a” sound. For you to suggest that “i” could be used as “a” is just a ploy to cover up your ignorance in English diacritical connotations. Furthermore, I was correcting you regarding the “I” in the word “alIm”. If you were to suggest also that A could like Hamza or Ayn then are we suggesting the word, الله ?عالعم Or Allahu Al`am? I think you totally missed the point!

8. Also for you to suggest that “I might be a non-Muslim trying to enter Muslim forums and cause problems and I said this trying to make an excuse for Muslims”, I am totally disgusted at how you teach me about Adab/manners and yet you dare to suggest that I might be a non Muslim causing fitnah. You manners in this affair have surpassed anything that I might have upset you. How have I caused fitnah? Fitnah in arabic often refers to civil strife and major conflict. Have I caused such an uproar for you to “represent” the entire ummah in admonishing me regarding my fitnah? Allah says in the Quran, “Wal-Fitnatu Ash-Shaddu Minal Qatl”. And fitnah is greater than killing. Have I truly caused that? I think your statement “your arabic is off” should only be mirrored back to you. Please check up the word Fa Ta Na the root word of Fitnah and check up Lisaan Al-Arab, Taaj Al-Aroos, Al-Mujam Al-Waseet, Al-Bahrul Muheet before you come off on a tangent like this ever again. Might I add that since I’ve caused ‘fitnah’ are you going to. Please prove that I am a kaafir! Are you doing takfeer upon me? Does criticizing you take me outside the fold of Islam? Authobillah!!! Allah the almighty said: “Say (O Muhammad), Produce your proof if you are truthful”!

9. Brother, you have advised me with numerous ahadeeth about speaking good, I would like to reciprocate the effort:

“Ibn Umar related that the Holy Prophet said: If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.”

“Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.”

(Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44)

The teaching contained in these hadith is meant to stop Muslims from dubbing each other as sinners and kafirs.

“Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah’ — do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah’ as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.”

(Tabarani, reported from Ibn Umar)

“Call not the people of your Qibla [i.e. those who face the Ka`ba in Makka for prayer] as kafir.”

(Al-Nihaya of Ibn Athir, vol. iv, p. 187)

“Nothing expels a man from faith except the denial of that by which he entered into it [i.e. the Kalima].”

(Majma` az-Zawa’id, vol. i, p. 43)

“Three things are the basis of faith. [One is] to withhold from one who says `There is no god but Allah’ — do not call him kafir for any sin, nor expel him from Islam for any misconduct.”

(Abu Dawud, Book of Jihad, 15:33)

*****I think that you suggesting that I might be a non-muslim is a greater fitnah than what you have accused me of.

10. You have mocked me in such a way that you are not even sorry for.

11. If my way of correct was “incorrect” so to speak, then practice what you preach. I see that you are very good at practicing that for you did not seek the truth and establish the truth! You later found out that I was a Muslim and you tried to be arrogant by saying that I should not be debating you in “Arabic/English”.

12. This is not a public forum. It’s the blog of someone else. Did you give ibn hyderabadee the respect and adab by calling a friend of his a “non muslim” causing fitnah?

13. If I could be a non-Muslim, why did you address it as “AS” or saying, “If you dont want to talk but attack asalaamu alaikum akhi.” Why address me as “akhi” when you have suggested me as being a Non Muslim?!

14. The whole delay in which I refused to answer was to see how long your tangent will continue. If you were so upset, I see that you must have not performed wudu or sit down, or say authobillahi minash-shaytaani-rajeem. Rather you start by swearing by Allah.

15. “Calming the fire?” I don’t know who started the fire here but I think you did for attacking me personally, my knowledge etc. You started the fire and here I end it!

16. With all due respect brother, what do you mean by this as it makes no sense grammatically or linguistically speaking:

“I am thrown aback that we could be so rigid with english as it i arabic that is one second jest using Allah {swt} is serious and can lead to “kufr.” That is the point. I do not understand really what is going on with brothers.”

*** I did not jest. I was not trying to Joke about Allah but rather you calling me a kaafir could lead to kufr! If it seems that I might have been, I ask Allah to forgive me. I didn’t joke for I asked a question. Do you know what the question mark means?

17. “and I said this trying to make an excuse for Muslims.” – So make me the “kaafir so that we can think better about our Muslims. Oh wait, I’m not included according to Shaukani.

18. “Allahu Alim Wa Al’aa” No one ever says this. You’re so weak in Arabic that you come up with “possibilities” that perhaps your version of transliteration is a stretch.

19. There is nothing wrong with transliterating for you also used transliteration in many of your words such a Imam Malik, or “Allah”. Do you use an “orientalist” transliteration you so detest me in using?” Do you think the letters in English “Allah” clearly represent the word اللهin Arabic? Why not practice what you preach and stick to your principles.

20. “Akhi Amad, Thanks for your brotherly spirit and coming up with an excuse for your brother that is to be commended highly and actually it cooled the fire so to speak.”
***I don’t think they were giving me excuses for verily they know me personally and they wouldn’t say such foul things against another student knowledge. I didn’t attack you personally, but rather you attacked me personally. I forgive you and I advise you study hard in Egypt!!!

Wa-Salaam Alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuhu

Oh…Sorry, you don’t have to respond to my salam because I might be a “non-Muslim”.

There are not many nicabi women taking part here…..It would be interesting to know their views on the matter. Are there no Islamic women scolars? I never here from them?

It seams many of the men debating here easely get lost in dogmatism – it smells trouble and internal fighting.

And- Why should women cover them selves totally? Who are they doing it for? To protect themselves from men?
In Western culture this is a symbol for importent things Western democracies have fought for; freedom for women in having control over their own bodies. For most western women and men the niqab symbolises mid-eval ages with dogmatism and personal supression.

It is from the Mercy of Allah that you dealt gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee: so pass over (their faults), and ask for (Allah’s) forgiveness for them; and consult them in the affairs. Then, when you have taken a decision, put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him). [Ale Imraan V. 159]

So pass over each other’s faults and ask Allah’s forgiveness for each other.

And advise each other in your affairs

Allahu ‘Alam

Adnan: if you read my post and comment…..the urf is not even an issue because they are saying the basis of their religion is only the Qur’an.

“…Western democracies have fought for; freedom for women in having control over their own bodies.” …

LOL…i guess that’s what Churchill was really thinking about when battling the Nazis!!

perhaps George Washington was thinking the same thing his famous crossing of the Delware…

Perhaps Aristotle was thinking the same thing in POLITICS when he asserted the following:

“….but the temperance of a man and of a woman, or the courage and justice of a man and of a woman, are not, as Socrates maintained, the same; the courage of a man is shown in commanding, of a woman in obeying. And this holds of all other virtues, as will be more clearly seen if we look at them in detail, for those who say generally that virtue consists in a good disposition of the soul, or in doing rightly, or the like, only deceive themselves. Far better than such definitions is their mode of speaking, who, like Gorgias, enumerate the virtues. All classes must be deemed to have their special attributes; as the poet says of women,

Silence is a woman’s glory….”

Camilla please avoid juxtaposing your narrow political idealogy with a supposed desire to learn about Islam. The fact of the matter is that there are Muslim women who do, out of their own desire, cover themselves and then there are those who merely do so as part of their cultural values. Muslim women who cover themselves in order to fulfill a religious requirement and get closer to their Creator will be reward, God-willing. Those who merely do so out of some kind of cultural compulsion will likely not see the same reward.

“Are there no Islamic women scolars? I never here from them”?

Well, it just so happens one of the great religious scholars of the Muslim nation happened to be a woman. Her name was Aishah and she was the wife of the Prophet of Islam. She is not only regarded as “Mother of The Believers” for all Muslims but also as a woman who narrated a number of Hadeeth (Prophetic statements) and then transmitted those Hadeeth to others in earliest generation of Islam.

“For most western women and men the niqab symbolises mid-eval ages with dogmatism and personal supression.”

Well, for us eastern folks — a number of things we observe here in the west seem problematic from a sociocultural perspective. Take for example the rise of abortions in the west. What I find interesting there is how some of the greatest beneficiaries of abortion by women are MEN! Men can convince women to have an abortion and Wah-Laa….no more child support to worry about — and hey — I can keep on womanizing! Or……

How the issue of women (particularly young women) with health problems – related to food – who either starve themselves or binge & purge in order to look like the “hottest” Hollywood tramp! Or…..

How about the issue of teenage suicide…..the rise of AIDs & STDs… OR….

I agree that there are a lot of issues in the West that are really bad. And democracy is by no means perfect, but I see no other solution that will secure people their human rights in a better way.
And the word fought was not as in fysical war, but women (and many men) struggeling for equal rights and freedom for women since 1850 and up til now. But, I see no point in arguing who is worse. No society is perfect. The problem here is the niqab. I am a techer, and in Norway all children can use hijab without problem. I have many students who weare hijab. I have no problem respecing that. Niqab though I find to be something different. To use a face mask would be 1.very stigmatising for her 2. make it difficult for others to interact with the student 3. make exam situations difficult (who is under there?) Nonverbal communication is so important to humans. I think it is abuse to cut people of from such an important part of being a person among others.

To find serious arguments for the suppression of women in the writings of Aristoteles is but comical. Luckily the world has moved foreward for the poor, the sick, women and children and men (in many countries) in the last three thousand years. And luckily today everybody over 18 can vote and not just a segment of the population as in his time. Aristoteles and other men at the time were pro homosexuality. But that view is not something modern states use as arguments when homosexual’s rights are argued for. They use humanisme and the human rights as guidelines. We can all find arguments for or against our views written somewhere if we want to.

I understand that religion set standards for human interaction. But in islam they are so very in favour of the men and closing the action space for women so radically.
I saw a program were muslim women in London tried to pray in a mosque but were sent away.
I suspect that muslim women in England, Germany, Norway and the like, are the ones who are going to make muslim religious practice compatible with living in the West.

You didn’t really respond to much….just the usual defense jargon of the West and of Western sociopolitical institutions….Blah Blah Blah…nothing new there…. but ……

“To find serious arguments for the suppression of women in the writings of Aristoteles is but comical.”

1) First of all who is “Aristoteles” ?????
2) Secondly, i new that i would – at some point – garner a response like the one you gave. I only used the statement by Aristotle to give our discussion some kind of historical context — which people in the West don’t seem to do for Muslims and Islamic history.

Case in point — when Western historians, academics, pseudo-intellectuals and religious figures attack Muslims and the religion of Islam they often point to the life and times of the Prophet of Islam to justify their own narrow political ideology. Why can’t we give the same deference to the Prophet of Islam that we so quickly give to Aristotle? Anyway, that’s neither here nor there.

“I saw a program were muslim women in London tried to pray in a mosque but were sent away.”

OSLOCALLING: LOL… you took the entire issue of the women trying to pray in the mosque out of context. The women who were supposedly not permitted to pray in the mosque were told that:
1) There was no space in the mosque.
2) If there was a bit more space — then they would gladly be welcomed to pray in the mosque.
3) Congregational prayer is not obligatory for women in Islam and furhermore, as far as Islamic traditions are concerned, it is better for women to pray at home.

Also consider the following:
1) The women were in no way objecting to the religion of Islam doctrinally.
2) If the prayer of Muslim women is of such concern to Westerners (particulary Europeans) than why don’t you — or Tony Blair for that matter — fork over the CASH so that we can expand the sizes of our Mosques to accomodate more and more women. In other words…”Put your money where you mouth is” if you are so concerned about Muslims offering the same rights of worship to all people.

Also, in Islam – men and WOMEN – are spiritually equal under the eyes of our Lord. This is contrary to Christianity, for example, where women are considered to be the originators of ALL sin in the world (i am referring to the concept of Original Sin). This is also contrary to the basic beliefs of Hinduism which regards women to be inferior creatures — while MEN are regarded as deities that should be worshipped by their wives. Essentially, as Hindu tradition goes, when the husdand dies — so too does the god (deity) of the wife. She is therefore compelled to be burned alive at his funeral.

“But in islam they are so very in favour of the men and closing the action space for women so radically.”

“To use a face mask would be 1.very stigmatising for her 2. make it difficult for others to interact with the student 3. make exam situations difficult (who is under there?) Nonverbal communication is so important to humans. I think it is abuse to cut people of from such an important part of being a person among others.”

Well, OSLO, I am a teacher at a parochial school and I find your arguments to be of no merit. I have come across plenty of students who wear the Niqab and they seem to be doing just fine. By the why, aren’t some of the arguments that you have used against the Niqab quite similar to arguments used by Jack Straw?

I’ll tell you what OSLO….when the Catholic Church allows women to vie for the “honor” of becoming POPE — and Western academics fight for women to have that right — then and only then…might some of your arguments be fair.

I must admit that I find religious practice for most part quite strange and often stupid. And like you pointed out about Hinduism and Christianity, it just strenghtens my personal view.
I wonder what kind of god it is that put so much importens in following detailed roules about food, clothing an so forth in stead for man trying to make peace and to focuse on living in harmony with our neighbours and our self. That scares me. My personal view is to strive for “when in Rome, do as the romans” – up to a point of course. If a way of life is so much in contrast to the culture you are in, why not move away from it? Why not move to a country where you can pracitce your relgion as you like? I’m not saying that you should not be able to be a good muslim in the West. But is the niqab really so importent that you are willing to make the gap between muslims and nonmuslims in the West bigger because of it? That puzzels me.
My native toung is Norwegian, so exuse my English being far from perfect.

“My personal view is to strive for “when in Rome, do as the romans” up to a point of course.”

-LOL….OSLO….aren’t Romans accused of feeding early Christians to Lions in great festivals? Yeah…let’s do like Romans! lol (just kidding…don’t call DHS on me)

If a way of life is so much in contrast to the culture you are in, why not move away from it? Why not move to a country where you can pracitce your relgion as you like? I’m not saying that you should not be able to be a good muslim in the West. But is the niqab really so importent that you are willing to make the gap between muslims and nonmuslims in the West bigger because of it?

-You’re right OSLO….that’s why I not only believe that Muslims should NOT live in the West…but those who remain should eventually leave in order to make Hijrah!

“My native toung is Norwegian, so exuse my English being far from perfect.”

Chapter 4: Repayment1.Missing a day of fast in Ramadhan2.When does one make up a missed fast3.If missed fast are not made up until few dats before next Ramadhan4.Missed fasts first or voluntary?

Chapter 5: Recommended, Disliked, and Impermissible Days of Fasting1.Recommended Every Other Day Sawn Dawood2.The three white days of every Islamic month3.Six days of Shawwaal4.Month of Muharram and the 10th5.Ten days of Dhil Hijja and that of Arafat6.Disliking of the month of Rajab7.Disliking of the day of Friday8.Disliking of the 30th of Shabaan9.Impermissibility of fasting on the two Eids10.Completing of a voluntary fast is not Wajib