Knee and support structure mechanics

Originally Posted by blackmonk

As far as what you can do while playing judo, you might want to defer to more experienced guys on here. What I can say with some confidence, though, is that I have changed my game a lot since first practicing judo, in order to further protect my knees... My left knee blew out getting thrown on a hard-and-fast tani otoshi that came in from the side, rather than around back, and my right knee blew on getting thrown by a tai otoshi where the trailing leg planted across my knee. So now, I tend to play judo from a farther distance, either trying to throw from as far away as possible, with foot sweeps or sacrifice throws, or I try to close the distance completely as quickly as possible. That way, my opponent doesn't have as much of a chance to gain that middle distance where I am weak, both skill-wise and physically.

Something similar happened to me as well - had a partially-torn ACL, partner loaded me onto my bad leg and whacked into the side of it while going for a throw (damned if I remember which one specifically). One nice pop, and down I went. So as judojeff also mentions, don't plant hard when you're trying to fight off a throw.

I am confident as an authority on preventative maintenance, though, as I have a CSCS cert and years of sport-specific experience. The shearing action of the knee is the culprit in these injuries, particularly during deceleration. This can be prevented by fixing imbalances in strength between the vastus lateralis and vastus medialis, where the medialis tends to be the weaker of the two. Focus on abducting and adducting exercises. Also, while squatting, research has shown that a wide, hip-squat stance at 140% of shoulder width provides maximum engagement of the calves and glutes, which are counter-intuitively the major support sources for the knee joint.

Yay CSCS! ; ) I find it interesting that you would split VL/VM. Can I ask what research you would use to justify doing so? What little research I've done on the topic (specifically with an eye towards resolving patellofemoral pain) has turned up a lot of sketchy, controversial, and inconclusive studies. If you've got something solid, I'd love to see it. Or even if you've just found certain things that work better for strengthening VM (and/or VMO) as opposed to VL, I'd love to hear more.

As far as what you can do while playing judo, you might want to defer to more experienced guys on here. What I can say with some confidence, though, is that I have changed my game a lot since first practicing judo, in order to further protect my knees... My left knee blew out getting thrown on a hard-and-fast tani otoshi that came in from the side, rather than around back, and my right knee blew on getting thrown by a tai otoshi where the trailing leg planted across my knee. So now, I tend to play judo from a farther distance, either trying to throw from as far away as possible, with foot sweeps or sacrifice throws, or I try to close the distance completely as quickly as possible. That way, my opponent doesn't have as much of a chance to gain that middle distance where I am weak, both skill-wise and physically.

I am confident as an authority on preventative maintenance, though, as I have a CSCS cert and years of sport-specific experience. The shearing action of the knee is the culprit in these injuries, particularly during deceleration. This can be prevented by fixing imbalances in strength between the vastus lateralis and vastus medialis, where the medialis tends to be the weaker of the two. Focus on abducting and adducting exercises. Also, while squatting, research has shown that a wide, hip-squat stance at 140% of shoulder width provides maximum engagement of the calves and glutes, which are counter-intuitively the major support sources for the knee joint.

Damnit, I had spaz hands and side clicked the down arrow instead of the up arrow, that was supposed to be an "UPVOTE" urgh, annoying how I can't change it.

So wide base squats like that will help fix the imbalance between the vastus lateralis and the vastus medialis? I think a similar shearing action must happen when your standing in someone's open guard against things like the de la riva hooks and pressures similar to this?

Something similar happened to me as well - had a partially-torn ACL, partner loaded me onto my bad leg and whacked into the side of it while going for a throw (damned if I remember which one specifically). One nice pop, and down I went. So as judojeff also mentions, don't plant hard when you're trying to fight off a throw.

Yay CSCS! ; ) I find it interesting that you would split VL/VM. Can I ask what research you would use to justify doing so? What little research I've done on the topic (specifically with an eye towards resolving patellofemoral pain) has turned up a lot of sketchy, controversial, and inconclusive studies. If you've got something solid, I'd love to see it. Or even if you've just found certain things that work better for strengthening VM (and/or VMO) as opposed to VL, I'd love to hear more.

-Sazzy

There were a series of studies in one of the SCJournals from the NSCA a few years ago. I have the print copies, but would have to do some internet research to see if the abstract is online somewhere.

The usual VM exercise for rehab purposes is doing wall squats with a swiss ball in the small of your back, while squeezing a medicine ball between your knees.

Damnit, I had spaz hands and side clicked the down arrow instead of the up arrow, that was supposed to be an "UPVOTE" urgh, annoying how I can't change it.

So wide base squats like that will help fix the imbalance between the vastus lateralis and the vastus medialis? I think a similar shearing action must happen when your standing in someone's open guard against things like the de la riva hooks and pressures similar to this?

No, the wide squats, particularly at 140% of shoulder width, offer the most activation of the glutes and hips.

As far as DLR goes, I think you're at the most risk when you allow your knee to rotate outward, and I would suspect that DLR would tend to rotate the joint inward. Although knee injuries occur in either direction, of course.

No, the wide squats, particularly at 140% of shoulder width, offer the most activation of the glutes and hips.

As far as DLR goes, I think you're at the most risk when you allow your knee to rotate outward, and I would suspect that DLR would tend to rotate the joint inward. Although knee injuries occur in either direction, of course.

Ah ok, so could you recommend any exercises that would aid in strengthening those stabiliser muscles then?

Hmm, yeah, seems the issue, I've found, is that one counter the DLR is that you DO rotate your knee and foot outward to counter the driving inward force against the hook. I don't really like to do this as it seems to place a huge amount of pressure across the meniscus and then I've found some training partners like to buck around a lot from there to switch the pressures back and forth until you get swept (not just in the controlled way).

I'm digressing, but this is a good chance to ask a lot of knee questions ;): Obviously a shitty place to be for knee health, but anything you can recommend to help strengthen stability against that type of variable force, and what would be the best way to warm up to avoid injury in scenarios relating to knees and differing planar forces?

I find similar worries with a lot of open guard stuff used against me, if they are keeping feet on moving, switching hooks etc, so it's meant I don't like to stand and pass as much as I should...

Yeah, I know which counter you're talking about, now that I think of it. Carlos Machado was showing that at a seminar a couple of years ago.

Really, the most practical exercise that I can recommend for stability is just deep squats, with a wide stance. Not necessarily ass-to-grass, but at least where the origin point of your quadriceps dips below the plane of your knee. I think the overall better exercise is a good morning squat, for your purposes... It does take a little bit of practice, though.

Yeah, I know which counter you're talking about, now that I think of it. Carlos Machado was showing that at a seminar a couple of years ago.

Really, the most practical exercise that I can recommend for stability is just deep squats, with a wide stance. Not necessarily ass-to-grass, but at least where the origin point of your quadriceps dips below the plane of your knee. I think the overall better exercise is a good morning squat, for your purposes... It does take a little bit of practice, though.

Cool, thanks so much, man!

To clarify: This is the type of 'good morning squat' we're talking about as well?

You don't lock out your knees like that, and the goal is to have your torso parallel to the ground. Then you continue the squat as normal. I tell people to imagine that there is a wall 12-18" behind them, and you're trying to touch the wall with your butt, without moving anything but their hips. There will be a slight and natural bend in the knees, and that's ok.

the calves and glutes, which are counter-intuitively the major support sources for the knee joint.

Gastrocnemius and plantaris, sure, but the glutes don't come anywhere near the knee; the hamstring muscles, on the other hand, do cross the knee joint (or at least their tendons do). Was that what you meant?

Re: Questions concerning leg locks

Originally Posted by TheRuss

Gastrocnemius and plantaris, sure, but the glutes don't come anywhere near the knee; the hamstring muscles, on the other hand, do cross the knee joint (or at least their tendons do). Was that what you meant?

No. The research that I read from the NSCA suggests that hip and glute development offers a support structure against torque across the knee joint, or at least that's what I took from it.