Coroners? We can live without them! Busch says

A long-standing tradition in Albany County is the coroners’ system. Four coroners hold four-year terms and are politically connected.

For as long as one’s memory stretches, coroners have all been Democrats, who in 2012 are scheduled to be paid a little more than $19,200 annually. Coroners are on call 24-7 and rotate. They show up at all unattended deaths, including homicides.

That brings us to Tuesday night, where one of the speakers at a public hearing on the county’s 2012 budget and 2 percent tax cap was County Legislator-elect Deb Busch. A Republican and Knox resident, Busch unseated longtime incumbent Democrat Sandy Gordon and will take office Jan. 1.

She suggested legislators, who will be voting on a new budget and tax levy, get property taxes within the state’s recommended 2 percent cap, something they should do out of respect for Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who campaigned on a residential property tax cap.

Busch suggested several ways for lawmakers to trim the budget, focusing largely on the Coroners’ Office. Get rid of it, she said, coroners are “antiquated” and the office costs $2 million annually. The 2012 budget shows the office costs $584,000 to run.

Coroners can’t pronounce people dead or perform autopsies, she continued in an animated spiel. Use medical examiners, she said. Actually, coroners do prounounce people dead, that’s why they’re called to the scene, and that’s why most coroners are funeral directors.

Finally, Legislature Chairman Dan McCoy, a Democrat, who is county executive-elect, reminded her that if his memory served him, she ran for coroner a couple of years ago.

“Yes, that’s right,” answered the critical care registered nurse, with a smile, who works at Albany Med where, she said, she manages a large budget.

She lost the 2009 coroner’s race to incumbent Coroner Paul Marra, a Democrat, who now has been in the post for 23 years.

During the coroner’s campaign, Busch said her nursing skills would come in handy if elected.

“A county coroner has to possess some skill sets that have their foundation in health care,” she said at the time. “The county coroner is in a position that basically is there to serve public health and in serving public health make determinations basically on whether an individual is resuscitated or declared dead.”

Busch suggested another way to save money is for the county to repair the old nursing home instead of building a new one, and for Albany County to “stop looking at building a convention center, do something else with the land.” Lawmakers could be heard grumbling under their breaths that the county isn’t building a convention center, that’s a city of Albany project.

When Busch finished, 1st Ward Legislator Luci McKnight told her that the convention center is a “city initiative, not a county one.”

Speaking of the convention center, Albany Common Council President Carolyn McLaughlin spoke as a supporter of a new nursing home.

Regarding the convention center, McLaughlin said, while she supports one, she “can’t see it going forward at this time, 2012, with the condition the city is in, the county is in and the state.”

26 Responses

The Dems in the Legislature who redistricted Sandy Gordon out of a seat deserve four years of listening to Deborah Busch spew untruth and inanity into the legislative chamber. She can be the new Brian Scavo, only more annoying.

This lady is really out there…how do you come to a meeting as a legislator elect and not not know what the heck your talking about…wow. She ran for every seat in the county and her statements show she maybe repeated to the man she knocked off. GOD help us.

I guess the question would be to Busch “had she won the Coronors office would she had been willing to give up the job to cut costs?”
My next question would be since there are 39 legislators and your cutting costs will you give up your seat to save money?”
Last question “Do you decide how to vote based on respecting another politician or do you vote because its good policy?”

I don’t think Ms. Busch did her research into the functions of the coroner’s office before she opened her mouth to espew this nonsense. We have 4 elected coroners which I agree is silly in so far as that we still elect coroners. This system is actually more cost effective than hiring or appointing medical examiners to cover the large number of unattended deaths in the county. You aren’t exactly going to be able to hire a medical examiner to cover the county all day, all night, all year as a part timer who spends a week on call each month for $20K/yr. That’s laughable at best.

The problem with electing a coroner is that anyone can run regardless of their credentials and ability to handle a death scene. I would rather see the coroners appointed by the county executive based on required credentials and residency and then approved by the legislature rather than holding an actual election since at least in Smallbany our coroners are basically appointed by the Democratic Committee anyway.

In addition to the elected coroners we have a number of contract employees working out of the office to assist with the removal of bodies. I believe all of them have at minimum an AS in mortuary science and I believe all of our elected coroners are either licensed morticians or licensed funeral directors or both. The coroner on duty at the time responds to any unattended death and is assisted by the contract staff on duty at the time. They all work on a pager system on an on-call basis which means that unlike our other public safety services (police, fire, EMS) we’re only paying our contract workers for the time they spend on a call and not for the time they spend waiting for a call to come in.

Based on her comments I doubt Ms. Busch has ever had to be the first person to touch a body that’s been sitting for a week…It’s a pretty disgusting and thankless job. A part-time elected position that pays $19K/yr seems like a good deal but when you break down the work they do our coroner’s aren’t being paid well at all. And they do preform vital assessment services such as identifying signs of neglect and enacting police investigations that our EMS and PD often fail to recognize. And yes in addition to being able to pronounce someone dead or coroners can also determine that a death is suspicious.

What’s the alternative? Do we leave our dead on the curb for regular pick up each Wednesday? Our dead bodies will be serious public health issue if they are not properly taken care of. As a nurse I would hope that Ms. Busch has the brains to recognize this but apparently not. To have a fully staff ME’s office capable of picking up a body 24/7 365 days a year would cost quite a bit more than $600K. Not to mention the fact that the County already has forensic pathologists they contract with to perform autopsies based on the County’s need. Again another cost saving measure.

In NYC for example a fully staff ME’s office makes sense since you have the population numbers to ensure that those salaried folks are on the go at all times. But not in Smallbany.

Ezzykeegan, looks like you did your homework. She was showboating for her peeps. But finally someone brought up looking at the coroners office. Why didn’t any of the legislators present even challnge her numbers? Because they didn’t know themselves.

Appointing a coroner after an interview process makes sense. But the salary will need to increase to make it worthy of the qualifications. I’m all for it. 1 fulltime coroner making 75k instead of 4 making 19k each. And one benefit package instead of four. Cool.

Busch was told those numbers. Had to. Richard Clarey do your homework next time.

AlbanyCommonSense-I’m glad we agree on most things but just one thing. You really can’t expect one full-time person to handle the 4 coroners’s jobs since bodies drop unattended every day at all hours of the day and by law they have to be on scene when they do. That’s why having 4 part-time salaried folks makes the most fiscal sense. They each spend one week of every month on call literally going out at any time during that week to respond to a body. Basically to create full time positions and ensure the kind of coverage that we currently have for unattended bodies would cause the costs of the department to skyrocket.

My issue is that I, a completely unqualified person, could technically be the next coroner if I petitioned to get on the ballot and ran an effective campaign. We’ve been lucky thus far in that the Democrats have promoted their mortician friends into public office through the coroner’s department but it won’t always be that way. Especially as our locally owned and operated funeral homes are taken over by national corporations who have no ties to the local area. And yes folks they have almost all been bought out. In fact Ms. Busch, when she ran, was not qualified to do the job b/c she had no training or experience working a death scene. Being a nurse does not make one a licensed mortician.

For those who are wondering I’m from one of those weird 6 feet under families with a long tradition of picking up the dead and burying the dead in Albany County. I didn’t need to do any homework since we’ve lived and breathed the department for more than half a century. I can assure Ms. Busch and all the naysayers that the department truly works their butts off and that of all the departments within the County government-this one is likely the most efficient. Is it full of party hacks? Sort of. But so is everywhere else.

Thanks for the insights into the workings of this relatively obscure bit of government operations, ezzy. I think your point about appointment and confirmation vs. direct election is very well-taken.

When you spoke of unqualified candidates, i couldn’t help but think of Ms. Busch, but of course that adjective fit equally well in her campaigns for County Legislature and the NY State Assembly. I will go to my grave with the memory of her assailing Jack McEneny at a debate for the failure of the Assembly Dems to guard our borders from the influx of illegal aliens crossing over from Canada.

To describe her as an empty vessel is an overestimation of her talents.

EzzyKeegan, then we don’t have much disagreement here. I was thinking of a structure similar to the DAs office, a DA and the ADAs. You made some great points.

Busch is what we expected but at least she has a damn pulse. If she thinks for herself she’ll be ok, but we know Clarey and Stack are pulling those strings. Dunce doesn’t bother me as much as Richard scares me.

I recently lost a parent in an unattended death. As such the elected coroner came to my home. I guess officially there job is to declare someone dead. What Ms. Busch failed to thing about was that this coroner made this horrible day easier for my family to handle. They made sure we where not in the room to watch my father being taken out of our home in a body bag. The coroner also sat and explained to me what I needed to do and what was going to take place once my father was removed from the home. I do not have the nurse’s degree that Ms Busch has and this was my first experience dealing with this and the elected coroner who makes a salary that no one can live on took time out of his Saturday morning with his family to make things easier for my family. There is a human quality to this position that Ms. Busch seems to be lacking.

I should mention that although all the coroners have been Democrats in good standing, they have not all been morticians. There was a bit of a brouhaha a few years ago when one non-mortician declared someone dead only to have the person sit up. This person held the position for years based on his political connections.

Also another factoid for you all-the department responded to some 1200 unattended deaths last year. So all in all we spent less than $500 per removal and each coroner made approximately $63/per body if you break it down to an even split. When you include the time and paperwork involved we pay them about $10/hr. I say that’s a deal. An ME, since they require an actual medical degree, would cost you closer to $20/hr for an inexperienced newbie and upwards of $40/hr for someone with more than 15 yrs of experience. Starting salary in the low range for an FT/ME is $31K plus benefits. Salary expectations increase with experience. We would need at least 3 FT ME’s to cover the county day in and day out. We would also have to appoint a Cheif ME to supervise our ME’s and those guys garner at minimum $75K/yr. And we would still need additional staff members to assist with body removal. So Busch’s proposal would increase the cost of the department by about $40K annually and that’s low balling it.

Ms. Busch sounds highly uninformed and will likely continue to spout nonsense after being sworn in. The County Legislature needs these types in order to have the meetings drag on and on so that she feels that the taxpayers are getting their monies worth from her.

Let me get this right the budget for 2012 is $612,000 – 4 coroners, each “on call” for a week at a time. I assume “on call” means to be available, as in, having your beeper on. So that is $80,000 in salary. Pretty good gig for a part time job with no “professional” qualifications required. Even if they need be licensed morticians [which they do not nor are they] $80,000 a year for a two year degree and a part time gig where you have to keep your beeper on is a pretty sweet job. Not to mention the inherent conflict of interest in being a licensed mortician and “supervising” an unattended death situation.
Counseling the bereaved, indeed.

There is a secretary who gets paid about 40k and a part time clerk who gets about $12,000. State Retirement budgeted at $26,000; health insurance at $70,000. Medical and Lab fees at around $300,000; and $40,000 for fees for services – which I assume to be the coroner’s cronies who do the actual removals.

The statement: To have a fully staff ME’s office capable of picking up a body 24/7 365 days a year would cost quite a bit more than $600K. That statement is unsupported by any facts and, in truth, unsupportable. It is significantly more expensive than not to “hire out” patholgists and rent out medical labs than to do the process “in house” such as it is. The budget at present for that is $300,000 plus. You already are paying for removal of bodies which is budgeted at $40,000.

“The mission of the Albany County Coroner’s Office is to investigate deaths which occur in a non-medical setting or which are suspicious in nature. The Coroners expediously invesgate and record fatalies and assist survivors who are grieving or experiencing trauma as a result of the death of a loved one.” My thoughts are as follows: we have the State Police, local law enforcement and the Sheriff’s department to “investigate” deaths which are “suspicious in nature.” Coroners are not qualified to investigate doodley – that is why they have to hire a physician pathologist and a pathology lab. You have a clerk keep records and I think it best to leave the counseling of a grieving person to someone trained a licensed to perform such tasks.

Assuming that a Medical Examiner earns around $75,000 for what is, in fact, a part time job – 1200 unattended deaths – with out any other changes in the current structure you save significant money on payments to the retirement system, and even more money on health insurance.

“The four elected Coroners must maintain complete and accurate records of all cases and provide timely information and copies of reports to next of kin.” Well, I am fairly certain that the 12 grand a year clerk and the 40 grand a year secretary take care of the record keeping. For 40 grand you can hire an accountant to keep your records.

The coroners office is an office that is long past its time – it is an anachronism. They have no authority, they cannot sign a death certificate. In reality they cannot pronounce anyone dead. It is the physician/pathologist who makes that determination, determines the cause of death and then signs a death certificate. Coroners have no investigative authority or nor do they have or are they required to have the training and/or skill sets required to conduct an forensic investigation. All the coroners do is collect their $20,000 a year, plus health insurance, and state retirement benefits, turn on their beeper once a month and hire out their cronies to do removals. Its a job for political hacks and everyone knows it.

To CitizenforTruth. It’s pretty sad how your bashing the Coroner’s office. Hope you or your family don’t ever need their assistance. I felt compelled to comment after reading your comments. My sister died tragically in October of this year. My parents arrived at the Coroner’s office early the next morning from Rockland County. The secretary along with the Coroner went above and beyond to help my parents. I’m truly grateful for everything they did. To the Coroner’s Office “do not let these comments bring your level of professionalism down. We know it’s not about the money (the little that you make) it’s about compassion. Thank you for getting my family through our loss.

A medical examiner would have provided the same services, likely more, there is no doubt. And at less cost for the county taxpayer. Compassion isn’t the sole province of the coroner’s office. Sorry for your loss. I stand by my statement – the coroner’s job is for political hacks.

And one more thing – anyone who thinks each coroner makes a trifling amount of money lets make it clear – they make [I didn’t say earn] about 20k a year with full retirement and health insurance. Their job requires that they are “on-call” on week a month. In the meantime they can carry on their business as usual – in effect, getting paid by the county while working in another job at the same time. Divide 20k by 13 it comes up to just short of $1540.00 a week. Plus each coroner receives full health insurance benefits as the position is classified as a full time position. Not bad for doing nothing more than showing up at an unattended death.

Citizen-no one in the coroner’s office is making $80K a year. You can’t have one person be on call every day, all hours of the day, without a vacation. I mean for christ sake when you’re on call you’re on call. You can’t make any plans, can’t have a beer, can’t stray too far from the county, get woken up in the middle of the night to scrape someone off the highway, etc. The coroners make $19K and work round the clock one week out of every month and with the amount of removals they actually do they make approximately $10/hr.

My estimates on the running of an ME’s office are based on the lowest salaries paid to any ME anywhere in the US-look it up if you don’t believe me. This is definitely low balling it for NYS since our wages are generally higher than the rest of the country.

To build a medical lab would cost millions. NYC runs their own public health system so their labs are joined with the public hospitals. We don’t have a public hospital. We don’t have our own lab. Everything that’s processed by a lab is sent out whether its for the Sheriff’s department, the local PD, or the coroner’s office. Now you wanna hire a full time forensic pathologist instead of sharing one on a fee basis that’s used by Rensselaer, Schenectady, & Saratoga and who is a nationally renouned expert capable of testifying for the DA’s office in a trial? Or do we wanna pay for those fees in addition to having our own pathologist? Do you know what they make? Well over 6 figures.

Again I completely agree that ending the election of coroners and moving to a system by which we ensure our coroners have some level of exptertise to do the job is a good idea. But how the office operates is the most fiscally efficient model. And BTW, grief couseling is included in the educational requirements for funeral direction and mortuary sciences. Sort of makes sense since you will be addressing grieving friends and family as part of your job.

What’s next are we going to add a licensed clinician to the department as well?

@23 – Of course people make plans while on call. Coroners DO NOT work around the clock one week per month – they are ON CALL one week a month – and earn close to $1,540.00 that week. All four are provided health insurance benefits equivalent to a full time employee with NYS retirement allocated as if they are full time employees as well.

Your estimates regarding an ME are off base and are neither factually supported nor are they supportable. Wages in upstate NY are hardly higher than the rest of the country. The county has labs at its disposal – look to the nursing home, look to the Department of Public Health. If the Sheriff, the coroner, the DA, the nursing home, the health department are all in need of lab services AND in need of a forensic pathologist, it makes even more sense to hire one – the county will save money on lab fees, on lab processing fees, on autopsies, on witness fees, on salary related benefits, just to name a few savings.

Btw, when you bring in the Sheriff’s office and the DA office along with local PD [I assume you are referring to LEA] you are mixing your arguments and diminishing your logic.

I doubt you have the fiscal background, training, or experience to make a blanket statement that the present system is the most fiscally responsible for the county. Its not – its a system that serves political hacks and is of little or no consequence. The coroners simply have no authority to do anything of consequence . . . they do not perform autopsies [they can’t even assist] – they have to contract out; they cannot sign a death certificate – they have to contract out; they cannot “investigate” anything – they have no authority to conduct an investigation, forensic or otherwise. Nor does any coroner “scrape” anyone off the road as you so delicately put it – that is done by EMTs.

So far as the “counseling”, the program at HVCC provides a single 3 credit course entitled “psychology of grief” – it is NOT a course in grief counseling and there is NO coroner in Albany County who is clinically trained to provide grief counseling; and if any of them are holding themselves out as such they are perpetuating a fraud. As a matter of fact, I have observed the “sensitivity” of a couple of the coroners. Now that I have gotten myself back up into my chair after rolling on the floor laughing out loud I will tell you this: I stand by my statement – the office of the coroner in albany county is an office of political hacks. It is a waste of money. Taxpayer money that is better spent elsewhere on services that are universally useful throughout the county and spent on professionals.

As an aside, the reason that NYS is in such a fiscal mess is Patacki fired a significant portion of the state work force that performed essential services; after that debacle the state had to contract out for those essential services that were formerly performed in house at a cost exponentially higher than it otherwise have cost. Here we have a coroner’s office that is contracting out EVERYTHING. What a waste.

I am curious why my last comment and a response to the last post @23 was not published? It was on point. What I said was not obscene. What I said was true. It was not a personal attack on anyone. The content was not obtuse. Why the censorship?

So working one week a month and making $1540 is only $9.17 per hour. That being said that is an ignorant point on your part because they do not work literally one week per month that would be physically impossible. It’s funny how people have all these opinions and are totally ignorant on the facts. If you can find any cop who would actually be willing to pick up and remove a dead body then maybe your plans would work. Or what about the ones that are horrific and grotesque and at times body parts need to be found and collected from various places. I’d say $9.17 an hour is a deal. Why comment unless you educate yourself on a topic first!