I've been told I'm a tomboy, but I actually love doing all that primp-y bathroom-y stuff. I make my own toiletries from scratch because I'm so picky about what I like. It's a pain in the ass sometimes but it's also relaxing to take some time to do something for myself/my guy. I see it as keeping my appearance maintained so I'm partially holding up my end of the relationship.

I think women are held to a higher standard of beauty in modern times because a lot of guys have porn-based unrealistic expectations. In the past I guess it was mostly because women were expected to be slightly productive trophy wives. Lots of different reasons intersecting and whatnot.

(20-11-2013 08:54 PM)Cephalotus Wrote: I think women are held to a higher standard of beauty in modern times because a lot of guys have porn-based unrealistic expectations. In the past I guess it was mostly because women were expected to be slightly productive trophy wives. Lots of different reasons intersecting and whatnot.

I think porn might be more of an effect rather than a cause. Or maybe a bit of both?

The Kayan people is coming to mind right now as a different culture's example of a social burden put on women. Rings around their neck:

Quote:Not all women have to shave their legs - some have hairless legs. (I do)

So do I.

Quote:Nobody is making anybody shave their legs, the fact that some women feel they need to do it, doesn't make it so.

Woman are taught from an early age that their only value is their looks. If they want to get through life in the easiest way possible, taking the least amount of shit from people, they will conform. Looks are often the first thing people mention when talking about a woman. Consider Hillary Clinton and how many people say she has fat legs or something rather than talking about her politics. The same goes for many women in music (i've noticed this on a lot of heavy metal forums. I've even had my opinion on music dismissed because I'm not a porn-star-type, therefore, my opinion doesn't matter.)

I say this as someone who's taken a lot of shit from people for not wearing makeup, for not shaving, for not acting or dressing "like a lady," for the fact that I used to have short hair. I've been made fun of my entire life for my looks. Either it was my nose as a kid(it's sort of like Barbra Streisand's) or the fact that I look/act "butch" and like "masculine" things.

So no, I don't even blame the women who just do it to "fit in," because I'm sure that makes their lives a bit easier. And no one really wants the added annoyance of people talking shit on you and calling you a bulldyke all the time (and if you don't shave, they usually do). Women are told their whole lives that they are worthless and will never get a date unless they conform this this standard, and men are told that women who don't conform to this are disgusting and ugly, and they'd be embarrassed to be seen with them. (I know people who avoid posting photos of themselves with their girlfriends and going places with their girlfriends just because of the GF's weight, for example.) If you're attracted to men and you're told that men find hair repulsive, then it's not going to be an easy choice to NOT shave.

Have you thought about whether you actually like this type of woman or if you like that type of woman because it's what you've been told to like your whole life. It's the standard of feminine beauty in out culture. Images of such women are everywhere and we're told it's what women should look like. Basically, drag queens are the feminine ideal: all artifice with nothing of what they really are showing through. Consider how the standard of beauty is different in different places, or at different periods of history (like "rubenesque" women being glorified in the past for being fat, because that meant their family could afford lots of food and they could live a life of leisure. Same goes for paleness back then, it was a sign of not having to work in the fields, whereas today it's a sign that you can afford to lounge around at the beach). Hell, tabloids actually sell issues by publishing photos of "stars without makeup!" as if that's a scandalous thing, and people gawk at how "ugly" (=normal!) they look when they roll out of bed or go to the grocery store.

Quote:These cultural ideas of what women "should be" .... I feel our own culture (in the US, or at least what I've been exposed to) is IN A WAY doing these things in a much less extreme and different form.

Re: pornstars and women who resemble them: I'd certainly call all the breast implants and plastic surgery "extreme". I knew girls in high school that got plastic surgery. Have you ever watched "Dr 90210" or any of the other plastic surgery shows? That's gruesome, extreme shit. And it's not all that uncommon. Starving oneself to reach a certain ideal is also extreme, and anorexia can kill you.

Anyway, what I mean to say is this: sure, nobody is forcing a woman to shave at gunpoint (I hope), but you have to think about what the woman is giving up and what she will have to put up with if she decides NOT to do all those things, considering the value put on a woman's looks in society.

Thinking about it, I find the way a woman moves to be intoxicating, sometimes out of the corner of my eye the body language of a woman just getting out of chair at a restaurant can trigger a hormonal episode.

Some women can make the slightest muscle movement and it attracts me, I couldnt care less about a little mo hair, or ungirlyness.

This is a GAY test , watch at the 10 second mark and tell me you don't feel something.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".

What about the overwhelming social pressure to grow the thickest beard, be tall, thick head of hair, not stink, have chest hairs (and then shave them to show manly barrel chest), not have voice crack, know how to fix EVERYTHING that's broken, have the best mowed lawn and biggest man bit?

Of course there are social pressures, but you make them the standard and you lose the best parts about people, the parts that make all that trivial shit- well, trivial. I choose, in some ways, to conform to social pressures for the reasons of enjoyment, but my day to day life is very comfortable and I never feel like I'm not 'me' in the ways I want to be.

Hmm, I've never been exposed to those social pressures (fortunately?) so I'm not at liberty to say much about it.

Nor have I, and me neither.

(20-11-2013 08:21 PM)Adrianime Wrote: My growing up experience in Washington has required very little for me to be accepted as a "proper guy". Of course there have been a few small things like.....I dunno sports? I don't like sports, which makes me less fun to talk to I guess. But I don't feel like I've ever been judged over it.

As a woman, me neither. But, I know many have struggled. I know of men who have, as well.

(20-11-2013 08:21 PM)Adrianime Wrote: I think the proportion of expectations put on females drastically outweighs those put on males. You don't agree?

No I don't. I think it is an individual matter that can not be generalized, as people feel things to different intensities all along the lines of one extreme to another whether they are male or female.

(20-11-2013 06:41 PM)LadyJane Wrote: I dunno. Getting cramps, birthing babies and bleeding every month with no control over it kinda passes the leg shaving and make-up application shittiness. But hey, anytime I wanna grab a boob- well there you go, all negatives cleared.

I LOVE this! If you live in a culture where shaving and putting on make-up is the social norm, it's not really that bad. For me it's just part of my hygiene routine. I hate the way my legs feel if I go more that a day or two without shaving. It's itchy. If you want to talk about why it sucks to be a woman then talk about child birth. It hurts. A lot. Or menstruating. It freaking sucks! But as lady points out we never have to go in search for boobies. We have our own. Most guys can't say the same.

(20-11-2013 06:59 PM)Adrianime Wrote: Haha, nobody slapped me down first of all. I fully expected people to interpret it and react as Dom did (Indicated by my opening sentence.)

And I'm not talking about the natural pains of being a woman (periods/birth/PMS), there's not much debate over the pains that go along with those (that I'm aware of).

I'm talking about the social expectations that burden women.

Well, in that case.

What about the overwhelming social pressure to grow the thickest beard, be tall, thick head of hair, not stink, have chest hairs (and then shave them to show manly barrel chest), not have voice crack, know how to fix EVERYTHING that's broken, have the best mowed lawn and biggest man bit?

Of course there are social pressures, but you make them the standard and you lose the best parts about people, the parts that make all that trivial shit- well, trivial. I choose, in some ways, to conform to social pressures for the reasons of enjoyment, but my day to day life is very comfortable and I never feel like I'm not 'me' in the ways I want to be.

Really? I don't think men are pressured to have a beard and chest hair! :/
Lol. I totally get your point, but I must say the beard and chest hair is not nearly as popular today as it was in the 70's and 80's

What about the overwhelming social pressure to grow the thickest beard, be tall, thick head of hair, not stink, have chest hairs (and then shave them to show manly barrel chest), not have voice crack, know how to fix EVERYTHING that's broken, have the best mowed lawn and biggest man bit?

Of course there are social pressures, but you make them the standard and you lose the best parts about people, the parts that make all that trivial shit- well, trivial. I choose, in some ways, to conform to social pressures for the reasons of enjoyment, but my day to day life is very comfortable and I never feel like I'm not 'me' in the ways I want to be.

Hmm, I've never been exposed to those social pressures (fortunately?) so I'm not at liberty to say much about it. My growing up experience in Washington has required very little for me to be accepted as a "proper guy". Of course there have been a few small things like.....I dunno sports? I don't like sports, which makes me less fun to talk to I guess. But I don't feel like I've ever been judged over it.

I think the proportion of expectations put on females drastically outweighs those put on males. You don't agree?

I would say in some places there is too much pressure put on high school girls to be sexy, skinny, or perfect. Outside of high school (and maybe middle school), I am comfortable with who I am and how I look and I know there are guys who like the kind of girl I am. Everyone has their own preferences, most adults (I think) seek out people who prefer them rather than change to meet someone's preferences. If that makes sense.

What about the overwhelming social pressure to grow the thickest beard, be tall, thick head of hair, not stink, have chest hairs (and then shave them to show manly barrel chest), not have voice crack, know how to fix EVERYTHING that's broken, have the best mowed lawn and biggest man bit?

Of course there are social pressures, but you make them the standard and you lose the best parts about people, the parts that make all that trivial shit- well, trivial. I choose, in some ways, to conform to social pressures for the reasons of enjoyment, but my day to day life is very comfortable and I never feel like I'm not 'me' in the ways I want to be.

Really? I don't think men are pressured to have a beard and chest hair! :/
Lol. I totally get your point, but I must say the beard and chest hair is not nearly as popular today as it was in the 70's and 80's

My guys friends are always commenting on the shape, colour, texture and thickness of their beards. Ever heard the term peach fuzz? That's a bad word! ha ha. Then there is Movember, which has become huge.