schroeds wrote:Why would it be a mammoth task to add a threshold level of Clenbuterol?

schroeds I didn't actually speak of just Clenbuterol, I stated it be a mammoth task to add a threshold levels to ALL banned substances. As found in the Contador case, the levels found, had no performance gain.The mammoth task would be in determining at what level, each banned substance, had the potential to enhance performance. So the easy way out is "no tolerance"To others...Having been a competitor at the highest levels in this sport, I am certainly NOT offering cheats a leg up by supplying a ready made loophole, but actually allowing the possibility of false positives, or even food or supplement contamination. One would quite naive, to believe that there are only two places in the world where clenbuterol is used in livestock. With some research, you can find it in many South American nations,from when one of the Major meat suppliers, distribute worldwide (even EU), in the era of global food networks.It has been found even in the good 'ol U S of A (and yes, even in Spain)... the point is, something to consider To destroy a persons livelihood, by a technical injustice, doesn't see right to me, but that is only my opinion.The same would go for the present drug policies, for employment and employees, in which clenbuterol figures, and people lose their employment.I have never been, or condoned a drug, or any type of sporting cheat.But I am not one of the "holier that thou" element that frequents the forum when PED's are discussed here.End of rave

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

brentono wrote:As found in the Contador case, the levels found, had no performance gain.

Completely meaningless.

Blood level of a substance is always dynamic. What's of no performance benefit may not have been without benefit earlier. Then there's all the different theories out there, with or without scientific basis. The only question are positive or negative and intent.

Wasnt the big sway in Contador's case the trace amounts of plasticisers found (or something similar) indicating it was likely that it was from a blood transfusion. I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere.

Brentono read Tyler Hamiltons book and you will realise any little loophole they will abuse. You will also realise that they were all doing it and you will never defend a cyclist again.

vander wrote:Wasnt the big sway in Contador's case the trace amounts of plasticisers found (or something similar) indicating it was likely that it was from a blood transfusion. I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere.

Brentono read Tyler Hamiltons book and you will realise any little loophole they will abuse. You will also realise that they were all doing it and you will never defend a cyclist again.

Yes plasticisers were found suggesting a transfusion. Crazily out of the three scenarios (contaminated beef, transfusion, supplements) the authorities claimed the (least likely in my opinion) source of the clenbuterol was supplements.

vander wrote:Wasnt the big sway in Contador's case the trace amounts of plasticisers found (or something similar) indicating it was likely that it was from a blood transfusion. I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere.

biker jk wrote:Yes plasticisers were found suggesting a transfusion. Crazily out of the three scenarios (contaminated beef, transfusion, supplements) the authorities claimed the (least likely in my opinion) source of the clenbuterol was supplements.

As biker jk says, the presence of plasticisers was considered "the big sway" by the comenterati, but not by the Court of Arbitration for Sport

vander wrote:Brentono read Tyler Hamiltons book and you will realise any little loophole they will abuse. You will also realise that they were all doing it and you will never defend a cyclist again.

Tread carefully my friend - if you read Brentono's post above, you would notice that he says that he was a competitor at the highest levels and may well take it personally for you to say "they were all doing it"

Funnily, that idiot who developed renal failure secondary to bad blood transfusions (forget his name - 6 months or so ago) was rumoured to have been storing his blood in washed out milk bottles, to avoid the plasticisers....

Edit: Riccardo Riccò was the smart fella

Last edited by Dr_Mutley on Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vander wrote:Brentono read Tyler Hamiltons book and you will realise any little loophole they will abuse. You will also realise that they were all doing it and you will never defend a cyclist again.

Tread carefully my friend - if you read Brentono's post above, you would notice that he says that he was a competitor at the highest levels and may well take it personally for you to say "they were all doing it"

I dont believe he competed on the road in Europe at that time. All was probably a bit much. Lets stick with 98%

vander wrote:Wasnt the big sway in Contador's case the trace amounts of plasticisers found (or something similar) indicating it was likely that it was from a blood transfusion. I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere.

Brentono read Tyler Hamiltons book and you will realise any little loophole they will abuse. You will also realise that they were all doing it and you will never defend a cyclist again.

Vander- Not a big sway.From the Final Document from the CASThe Panel’s conclusions regarding the Blood Transfusion Theory.

454. To sum up, for the above reasons, the Panel finds that although the blood transfusion theory is a possible explanation for the adverse analytical finding, in light of all the evidence adduced and as explained above, it is very unlikely to have occurred

THE SUPPLEMENT SCENARIO (which became the most plausible)

457. The existence of contaminated food supplements in general is uncontested and there are numerous cases of athletes who have tested positive after having ingested contaminated food supplements.

Thanks for the book heads-up, but I do understand that with the money and prestige todaycomes more pressure to cheat. Was not so in my time, but some still did it. It comes downto each individual's conscience, and with the wrong choice, their disgrace ala L.A.

There may be some on here, that cheat to get from D to C grade, for prestige (it happens) I say "ride to enjoy it" and when that stops, move on.

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

AFAIK, the plasticizer test is not approved/certified yet, so it can't be used as evidence (or something like that).

Re the clenbuterol, i'm sure I remember reading an article about Contador saying something about how long clenbuterol stays in the animal's system, and how long it can remain in the meat after processing. Damned if I can find it now though.

When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments- Elizabeth West.

Brentono is right, there needs to be proper justice applied as is sogood on the issue of concentrations in blood/urine being dynamic and not always telling the full story. Clen has a half life of around 1.5 days IIRC so knowing what the concentration level is may provide a clue as to the level of plausibility of food contamination but it cannot tell us how the clen came into his system, although if the level is high, then it most probably wasn't from eating meat in China.

But the point is moot, the rules on strict liability are what they are, it was 2 months ago and opportunity to realistically investigate the contamination angle have long since passed. Clen is a prohibited doping product, it has been found in team doping kit bags from previous investigations and raids, and it most definitely is an ergogenic aid, and in various ways of benefit to cycling performance.

Advice not to eat the meat in China is not new, WADA have issued advice on this for many years, indeed China's own olympic athletes are not permitted to eat their own home grown beef.

There are already threshold levels for various substances in the prohibited list, so it's not something WADA do not or refuse to do, and of course for many substances that threshold level is zero.

Dope testing unfortunately has a very poor track record of actually catching dopers. The big fish that have been caught have mostly been reeled in by other means (investigate, confession etc). But this happens many many moons after the fact.

ldrcycles wrote:AFAIK, the plasticizer test is not approved/certified yet, so it can't be used as evidence (or something like that).

the certification of a test is not the decider of whether it can be used as evidence, but its weight as evidence. the testimony of former team members isn't certified either, but it was enough to sink Lance. in the end, it comes down to the strength of evidence - in all its forms. for example, if there was corroborating evidence of Contador engaging in blood doping, the plasticisers present in his blood (or urine?) sample may have been enough to secure a guilty finding.

ldrcycles wrote:AFAIK, the plasticizer test is not approved/certified yet, so it can't be used as evidence (or something like that).

the certification of a test is not the decider of whether it can be used as evidence, but its weight as evidence. the testimony of former team members isn't certified either, but it was enough to sink Lance. in the end, it comes down to the strength of evidence - in all its forms. for example, if there was corroborating evidence of Contador engaging in blood doping, the plasticisers present in his blood (or urine?) sample may have been enough to secure a guilty finding.

Thanks for clearing that up for me .

When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments- Elizabeth West.

“I think it is terrible and disgusting how everyone has treated Lance, especially after what he has achieved in winning 7 Tour De France’s whilst on drugs. When I was on drugs I couldn’t even find my bike”

...Trackies know, that when adding "Shellac solvent" to your party cocktails, always use a measure.Warning: some may find this really disturbing… about as disturbing as clown sex.

To All, All the best with your Cycling.

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

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