Thank you for pointing this out and revealing this Manoj guy. He belongs to that rare (but influencing) breed of fundamentalists in Hindu community and how clever he was to mention “avoid the word RSS”!!

I have no respect to RSS from what I have heard from their leaders during the sensitive times and I think majority of the Hindus are not with them or VHP. Their role in communal violences in India is widely known. All such fundamentalist groups (RSS/VHP/NDF) do many good things in their community in order to cover the venom they inject into the society.

I’m not sure of this Guy @Manoj, what he does and whether he is part of RSS or not.
But i can say one thing, that RSS doesn’t say anything to discriminate other religions.

What it says is Nation is first and then religion when it comes to values and faiths. This is where some religions don’t follow the RSS line and conflict starts.

As far as radicals are concerned, I think whether it is any Hindu Radical group, or Muslim, Christian, it can’t survive for a longer run in a multicultural society like India. Radicals groups are bad for any religion and society.

I have respect for the RSS. But that doesn’t mean I have respect for all the people in it or all those who run it. Like all organisations it has its black sheep.
The RSS idealogy about loyalty to the nation is a great idealogy in my opinion, whatever the relgion.
I don’t think one can club the RSS and the VHP and the Bajrang Dal together. The VHP and the Bajrang Dal follow extreme philosophies.

If it was really meant to be the Swayam Sevaks for the nation, just a few questios:

Why their hands were involved in Gandhi assassination? I know that many of the RSS folks do not agree to this as they have found that just being against Gandhi couldn’t fetch them much support.
Also what about their involvement in Babri Masjid demolition?

——————

Tushar Arun Gandhi, the Mahatma’s great-grandson who lives in Bombay, says simply of the people who might soon rule India: “I consider them the killers of my great-grandfather.”

“It was the RSS who distributed sweets when the assassination was announced,” said Tushar Gandhi. “How can they distance themselves from the killing now?”

The RSS chief, Rajendra Singh, recently said that assassin Nathuram Godse’s intentions were good; it was just his methods that were flawed.

Nathuram Godse’s brother Gopal nailed these denials to the counter in a devastating interview (given to Frontline, January 28, 1994):

Q. Were you a part of the RSS?

A. All the brothers were in the RSS. Nathuram, Dattatreya, myself and Govind. You can say we grew up in the RSS rather than in our homes. It was like a family to us.

Q. Nathuram stayed in the RSS? He did not leave it?

A. Nathuram had become a baudhik karyavah (intellectual worker) in the RSS. He said in his statement that he left the RSS. He said it because Golwalkar and the RSS were in a lot of trouble after the murder of Gandhi. But he did not leave the RSS.

Golwalkar praises Lord Manu as the greatest law giver mankind ever had. It was the same law giver Manu’s book, which was burnt by Dr. Ambedkar in his pursuit of getting justice for the dalits. In current times, Golwalkars’ successor also demanded a throwing away of Indian constitution, to be replaced by the one which is based on Hindu holy books, implying Manusmriti, of course.

In this book (‘We or our Nationhood Defined’ ) he rejects the notions of Indian nationhood, India as a Nation in the making. He rejects the idea that all the citizens will be equal. He goes on to harp the notions of nationhood borrowed from Hitler’s Nazi movement. He rejects that India is a secular nation and posits that it is a Hindu Rashtra.

The reports and analysis of these books (books being taught in the school outfits run by RSS combine – Ekal Vidyalaya, Sarswati Shishu Mandirs, and Vidya Bharati) so far has revealed that the sectarian ideology of Hindu nation, the hate and denigration of other religious communities, the upholding of caste and gender hierarchy and the glorification repressive ideology of fascism have been blatantly propagated through these. These books have listed all the Hindu festivals as national festivals, excluding the ones of Sikhs, Jain, Buddha, Christian and Muslims.

One of the questions in these books relates to the demolition of Babri Masjid, if x number of Kar sevaks can demolish the mosque in so many hours how much time will be taken by y number of Kar Sevaks.

During the 1940s the RSS’s new leader, Madhev Golwalkar, following the death of Hedgewar, sympathised both with German Nazism and Italian fascism.

In 1939 Golwalkar said: “German race pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic races – the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifest here. Germany has shown how well nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by.” (Golwalkar [1939] in We, or Our Nationhood, Defined.

There has been no explicit and unconditional disavowal of Nazi-like doctrines by the RSS/HSS or a repudiation of Golwakar’s ideas. Indeed, Golwalkar is held up as an example and spiritual leader for young RSS/HSS Swayamsevaks (members) and affectionately referred to as “Guruji”.

Following Mahatma Gandhi’s assassination by a former RSS member, Nathuram Godse, the RSS was banned by the Indian government from 1948 to 1949. After the ban was reversed the RSS, while claiming to devote itself solely to cultural activities, created several offshoot organisations, including the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), or World Hindu Council, in 1964, the Jana Sangh political party in 1951, which was the precursor to the current Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and numerous other organisations.

There are about 10 HSS related organisations that form the UK Sangh Parivar. In addition to the HSS itself and the VHP(UK), formed in 1972, there are the Overseas Friends of the BJP (OFBJP), Sewa International (the UK branch of the RSS’s International “charity”), Friends of India Society International (FISI), the Rashtra Sevika Samiti (the RSS’s women’s organisation) the National Hindu Students’ Federation (NHSF), the main Hindu students’ body in the UK, the Rashtriya Singh Sangat (its Sikh offshoot) and several others.

Now tell me again, do they purely consider nation first (Not the Hindu raashtra that they want to establish, but the republic of India) or the religion? Just like VHP and Bajrang Dal, RSS also follow the extreme philosophy. They might be doing some good work within the community, but any such group does the charity work to hide their main agenda.

No love for RSS, VHP, Najarang dal. They are not suited to the modern India.
RSS leaders are simply communal. They may have started with good intention. They may have killed Mahatma Gandhi with nation building in the background, but off late they are showing political intentions. By babri masjid, gujarat carnage what they did was harmed themseleves and the BJP party.
However, all of them are facing possibility of extinction.

One thing is true. We were taught to be secular and we will be secular. Repeated statements of being secular from our leaders over the past decades did the wonders on our society.
Especially bollywood had bigger influence and continues to weild on Indian minds.

So, who cares if these loud mouthed and trigger happy leaders are communal. They will meet their ends.

@jo –
Look @ the history ..Though I respect Mahatma Gandhi, I am one among those who believe Gndhi had played a big role in partitioning India.. Many mostly Hindus were killed during the partition..
Read this .. This explains Godse perspective..http://ngodse.tripod.com
The show was banned by the same people who did not have any problem in displaying paintings of naked Saraswati by MF Hussain.. says a lot about freedom of speech.. that it is for only non-Hindus…
When Tsunami hit Allapad coasts in Kerala, you should have seen the participation of the Swayamsevaks..They were THE helping hand..No media highlighted this… not even the local medias. No complaints .. After all this .. the CM wanted to give the rehab work to some evangelical organisation even overlooking Amritanandamayi’s Ashram. Envangelicals..the very organizations that spreads hatred thru conversions..
When some Pastor was murdered..the media was on their toes to put it on RSS..Later it turned out to be commited by some mad man..There was not a single apology on the various insults that were shovelled on the institution..

Is there a count on how many RSS leaders were murdered in Kerala? No nobody must have heard about that… how can you hear about this when no media covers this news…

Where was this media when Jayakrishnan Teacher was murdered in front of his 4-5 grade students? Where was the media when the Supreme Court aquitted all his murders, even after they paraded down the streets after the murder? Where was the media when the poor hindu was killed in Marad and nobody has been convicted so far? Where was the media when Aswin Kumar was murdered in TVM. Doesn’t a Hindu’s life has any value?
There is no article in Christianaggression.com that is cooked up .. It just a single media that brings out all the hatred the Hindu community facing today and I do respect them
It is far better than sites likehttp://www.joshuaproject.net/
for whom conversion is just for number ..

Thanks Sri. I am glad to see your comments. Ofcourse, the communal and religious differences are the worst issues India facing in our time.

I believe there are many people who do not like their religion’s bad aspects. But when they talk about that, the fundamentalists from other religion would take it a chance and attack them. So just to prevent their pride, they will attack back at them and the discussions on religion usually get ugly that way.

For example, if a Hindu talks about the problems in his community, a hard core Christian might take it as a chance to attack the whole Hinduism. And if a Christian admits that conversion is an issue and adding up numbers to the religion is stupidity without making them understand the religion, hardcore Hindus would take it a chance and would pretend only Christianity has problems in this world.

Also those who pretend to be secular will show their real face at one time of the heating discussion as well.🙂

Ajith, it is a pity that you believe Gandhi had played a big role in partitioning India. It was said over many times that it was purely the intention of Patel and Nehru who wanted to get into power of the independent India. Jinnah had told that he would not demand separation if he was given the prime minister post. Nehru and Patel couldn’t let the power go off their hands. Gandhi was invited for to talk to both parties. The decision of the partition was in the hands of Nehru and Patel and Gandhi tried to convince them a lot, but in a shocking surprise to Gandhi, they refused to give up. Gandhi walked off the room with great pain. Thus the partition happened.

When the whole India was celebrating freedom, Gandhiji was in the Naokhali vilage trying to establish peace between the rioting Hindus and Muslims. Where was this Godse if he was concerned about people dying in riots?? He was just a representative of a much more dangerous ideology – The Hindutva.

About the RSS activities in the Aalappaad area – Wait for a few more days. I will post an interview with a woman activist who was there throughout the disaster time and that post will explain what RSS have done there. I am not denying the good work they have done as well, but when it is to promote some thing (you will read about it in the post to come) what is the real intention? Wait and come back after a few days to read about it.

That interview will also show off the real face of Amruthanadamai Mutt as well. No joke, no mud-slinging. Pure first hand evidence.

RSS members who have been murdered in Kerala were in the media. How can you ignorantly say it hasn’t come in the media? I live in Kerala, dear friend. Let me ask you back – Is there a count of communists or leftists who were brutally murdered by RSS throughout Kerala as well?? RSS is just angry because they cannot get a stronghold over the literate Kerala community and they vent their anger on Christians, Muslims and Communists.

Talking about Marad, how can you again be selective? What about the Muslims who were murdered there? Who made the innocent Hindus and Muslims slaughter each other? I am not denying the role of Muslim fundamentalist groups in this case as well, but please do not say RSS or VHP had nothing to do in such cases.

How could you justify burning a person and his lil kid in fire but only the Jayakrishnan murder was brutal?

Actually I am against all violence.
Yes, there are people in the RSS who are hardliners. But I do believe that the basic idealogy of the RSS is not like that. However the organisation has deteriorated in recent times. Vajpayee has been associated with the RSS but he was against the Gujarat riots and he wanted to sack Modi. But he was effectively sidelined.
About Godse, I do not believe that this man reflected the idealogy of the RSS. But yes he was from the RSS, so I guess its difficult for me to argue that the RSS is not involved. Its just a matter of belief.
But then that is why I am not involved with any organisation, RSS or any other. I prefer to see them from a distance.
When Godse killed Gandhi our house in Pune was almost burnt down. A mob attacked. Guess why? Because my grandfather was a Maharastrian Brahmin, like Godse.

A piece of advise… see the things from a neutral angle before jumping into conclusions. You seems to get the info from one side only. Remove all the filters you had and allow the info flow from all sides. By quoting only few selective paragraphs you are just repeating the same kind of arguments the people are doing for quite sometime.
Do you agree that there was disagreement on various issues between the Nehru and Gandhi? Both have different opinions on the development of India.. Gandhi wanted a developed india thru development of Villages.. but whereas Nehru wanted a developed India thru the development of Cities.. Look at the intension of both.. both wanted a developed India. If you happen to see only aspect the means they were thinking of definitely we feel they are opponennts… But it is only limited to physical attributes… This is where many of westeners failed to understand the indian psyche… But the spirit behind these different approaches are the one and same. So dont follow the suite of our westners approach on any issue… have an wholistic approach on any issue. It will help you a lot in your arguments.

Hatred is not the thing we want now.. it is harmony… Vasudhika Kutumbakam is our thought… Golbal Village has to travel a lot to reach it.
Hope you agree with me.

Coming to Babri Masjid Demolition I am totally with RSS or VHP. I have been closely following the issue from 1984. I have read the articles in various news papers. The Babri Masjid action committe leaders announced that if someone can prove that there was a Mandir beneath the Masjid, they themselves demolish it and handover to Hindus. But when the proofs started surfacing the took back their words… And we need to respect others centiments… Hindus in this country believe that it is Ramajanmabhoomi.. Definitely Babar is not the religious head of Muslims or a person whom muslims worship.. then why dont muslims give it to Hindus just to establish the harmony. Can you imagine the same with Jerusalem or Mecca… what would have happened by this time.. entire world would have been in war.. So there is nothing wrong in giving the Babri Masjid site to Hindus when it helps the unity among the sons of soil.
Remember that we are a nation which believes Unity in diversity.. dont ever think of achieving Unity by killing diversity… it will cause much repurcussions which we cannot even imagine..

I am sorry to chose this message address to you.. In general I am addressing everyone in this thread..

I am open to any suggestions and any index fingers showing at faults in my argument.. but want to caution… just dont go by literal part of the message as I am very poor in putting the thoughts in the right order .. but look at the spirit behind it.. As I said.. I am open to take back my words if I went wrong in my thoughts.

Jo,
I am sorry, I haven’t seen some of your posts down the line which are in good taste.
Read the direct versions of the books dont ever depend only on the reviews to get the clear picture of the entire argument.
It would have added more weightage to your argument if you have quoted from the original books rather on reviews or opinions of others.
Hope you agree with me that any kind of division among people is worst.. may it be on religious, caste, colour, gender , wealth, nationality etc grounds ( I am still sticking to my previous argument i.e. by not eliminating the differences physically.. but thru a mental change)…. and political leaders make use of them…. a problem not only India is facing but the entire world is facing.. so let us conquer the hatredness of any form by pure love and show the entire world the way.

If you have any reasons to prove the mentions of Counter Current articles are wrong, please feel free to do so. I had to quote them since I do not have an online or offline version of those books. If you think CC quoting of Golwalker book is wrong, explain it and you can go by the law to sue them as well. I had to be selective in quoting because I want people to read it and understand such aspects of RSS, because people here in this section have been blindly in support of RSS and claiming they are not communal. I have put my reasons to believe RSS is a communal force. I didn’t deny the good work they do among Hindu community, but such groups do the same thing in all religious communities.

The facts I quoted about the partition issue was based on my knowledge of reading the Malayalam version of Freedom At Midnight written by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre. Although the right-wingers do not approve them, it seemed sensible to me considering the fact that they have done a vast research in this area.

I agree there was disagreement on various issues between Nehru and Gandhi. And I think Gandhi’s thought of “development of India through development of villages” would have been a ‘sustainable’ way of development. We have the present day India to put as an example. Although there are ‘India shining’ ga-ga’s everywhere, only a selective section of the society could benefit from it. I am no expert in economics, but just putting my thoughts here.

Hatred is not the thing we want now.. it is harmony… Vasudhika Kutumbakam is our thought… Golbal Village has to travel a lot to reach it.
Hope you agree with me.

I do. And that is the sole reason I have been quoting against RSS to show how the society of India has been affected with the groups as such. They needs to be identified and fought against.

I am still sticking to my previous argument i.e. by not eliminating the differences physically.. but thru a mental change

Sunil, it seems to me that you are confused with your thoughts. You said we should not “eliminate the differences physically but through a mental change”. If you truly believed in that, why did you support the Babri Masjid demolition? It was a physical elimination. I am not even saying you have to wait for the mental change to happen, but there is a Supreme Court and Law system in India. Why didn’t the RSS/VHP gangs wait for atleast that? Because it was for political gain. It helped the BJP and thus Sangh parivar to get a stonghold of Indian politics. They found out that flaming the religious sentiments is the best way into power and their MPs of two went on to a majority in the parliament.

Dear Sunil, please tell me how do you support such a shameful act in the history of post-Independent India?

I haven’t followed the Babri Masjid issue like you did so prove me if I am wrong, because my understanding was that there were daily poojas happening in the mosque even before the demolition (I read this in the newspapers during that time of tensions) and Muslims seemed to have no complaint with it.

so let us conquer the hatredness of any form by pure love and show the entire world the way.

I agree. Conquering the hatredness also have something to do with conquering the hate spreading groups or the majority of the people from any religion might go under the influence of such groups. I hate the Christians who convert others ‘by offering monetary benefits or by force’. I hate (so does many Muslims) Muslim right-wing groups such as NDF because they are into confusing many Muslim youngsters and I hate RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal because they also spread hatred between the countrymen (if you need local evidence of the hate spreading by RSS, I will provide you when I post an interview with an activist from the Tsunami affected coastal village Aalappaad, in Kerala). Can you say the same based on the principles you mentioned that you follow?

My suggestion to you is do not get fooled by the ‘social charitable work’ by RSS or any such groups. Protestants do that, Muslim extremist groups do that. So does RSS.

There was reason behind that I have mentioned you to refer the original books rather commentaries. Recently in ‘The Hindu’ there was one article on Sri Golwalkar which says he is Guru of Hate and author went on scribing the paras from the Bunch of Thoughts… I went thru the book to figure out his paras… Yes indeed those paras present in the book.. but totally missing the context… Just giving the isolated paras is nothing but misleading the readers(ofcourse now a days the media wants this to gain some popularity) ..
Then I sent the author with few quotations which I have seen from the book and what I could call them as the central theme of that particular topic (if not the entire book .. as entire book was basically on variety of issues over a period.. so my levels of understanding of those topics is not sufficient to put the entire book into few small paras.. or simply it is my inability :-)…
I am quoting one here
” The word ‘tolerance’, which is often used to express this idea is
very meek, it is just another word for sufferance. It implies an element of ego,
which just tolerates other viewpoints without any love or respect for them. But our
training has been one of respecting and even accepting other faiths and viewpoints
as so many paths to reach the same truth.
” – (Bunch of Thoughts .. Part One – The Mission. V The call of our National Soul’)
Where the Sri Golwalkar went one step ahead of our discussion even for today.. tolerance.. he is mentioning that it is not tolerance that is require but the acceptance …
Similarly I have quoted few more paras to the author and waited for his comments … but to my disappointment I didn’t get any reply…

In overall I agree with you.. That there shouldn’t be any role for anytype of Hatred.

My intension in supporting the babri masjid demolition is based on few facts..
1. In the initial days muslim leaders promised the same if someone can prove it that there was a temple on which the majid built. Later when the proofs are started surfacing they didn’t bind by their words and they started claiming differently and I felt they were at no intension to settle the issue to the benefit of the country.
2. Your point is 100% correct when you said that there were daily poojas in the babri masjid structure. But my point is that why did the muslim community attached to that structure which is of no importance to them.. imagine if they would have willfully given it to Hindus (ofcourse they lost a great chance to prevent the bipolarisation of the country on the religious grounds by denying it) what would be the scenario today.
3. Law … I just want to keep myself away from this topic… See even today they didn’t come up with a verdict on this issue. I dont think it is not a great task to guess why they cannot deliver the verdict. Yes you are right .. Thanks to our political jokers.. either way they damage the country… I dont see a single person in the etire political spectrum of today who has the courage of standing by the verdict(it might be favourable to Hindus or Muslims.. definitely they loose the other section votes)
4. Once demolished the wound disappeared from the political spectrum (except few muslim parties call for a strike on Dec 6th).. nobody bothered about it now.Interestingly situation worsened after BJP came into the power which was main reason why RSS didn’t support BJP in the last lok sabha election according to some news paper analysis.
5. Might be my personal judgement on any issue is … better to be cleared somewhat this way or that way before it eats away entire body… This is one such issue if not demolished it would have taken the entire country’s progress halted ( this is again totally my personal judgement I cannot substantiate it with the proofs.. I came to this conclusion based on my own personal experiences and applying to the nation)

I have seen RSS in its action in Social activities… I feel no match for it… I was awed by it infact… My impression on RSS was based on news paper reports… as usual dominated by Brahmins so I thought it has supports untouchability etc… but near my village when the priest prevented dalits entering into the temple.. it was RSS activists who were first to protest and convience the priest to allow dalits inside the temple. Things were not in news papers … there were no hartals, dharnas, and till today there is no clashes between the lower castes and brahmin community in that village. I have seen in news papers, to get entry into temples in some places ech side file a case in the police station, clashes etc… But the above change which I mentioned in the village nearby myne took place in the absolute calm. Do you want me not to give their due appreciation for their work for some of their acts somewhere else.
Whoever does good work let us recognise it. If I hate RSS it is like I am hating christian missionaries on their charity. Though whether they are indulging into conversions etc is totally different issue.. but they should get their due appreciation for their acts in the social charity. Thats what archbishop of Hyderabad insisted in one of the discussions on conversions with famous jornalist Arun Shourie.Yes he is true. And we also learn to deal with the truth. We appreciate any body’s good action and correct them on their wrong actions.

Finally, my entire argument is in line with yours with little change. I just dont want ‘hate aginst hate’ I want ‘Love against Hate’. I agree with you that it takes longer time but I feel it is the sure way to conquer.

I know that we cannot win in argument. But I am just attempted myself to be sensible.
I arrest my case here finally🙂