of the country ahead of the strict letter ofthelaw. oneman's imperial president tramping civil liberties is another man being pragmatic in a matter of survival. there is no hard and fast rule here. >> gavin: lessons learned today. in contemporary terms who would identify themselves most closely with jefferson. >> what is so great about jefferson, i could make the case for a tea party jefferson or obama jefferson. a cool writer who is dedicated to compromise the obama jefferson. the tea party jefferson the small government, and the government is that--the best government is the government that governor least. the reason why i do this, it's almost never all one or another. compromise is not always a virtue. one way is not always the best bay as we learned under civil rights. so understanding how the greatest politicians maneuvered, i think not only it should give us lessons about the practice of politics, but it should also tend to lower our blood pressure pressures a bit about every moment is not an epic moment. it's just not. >> gavin: good point. >> but you're living through it so it f