Recommended Posts

The Jews in general will come to embrace Christ when the Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem --- and it will be. But the Anti-Christ will desecrate the place with his image. It will be then that the Jews will realize their grave mistake.

Yes, but it will be the Jews who will recognize their fellow Jew, Jesus, and it is He who will rule from Jewish Jerusalem. You can read about it in Zechariah, where Jesus comes to Mt Olivet when his chosen people are in dire straits. Then he will show them the marks in his wrists and side, and they will realize the truth.

Share this post

Link to post

Yes, but it will be the Jews who will recognize their fellow Jew, Jesus, and it is He who will rule from Jewish Jerusalem. You can read about it in Zechariah, where Jesus comes to Mt Olivet when his chosen people are in dire straits. Then he will show them the marks in his wrists and side, and they will realize the truth.

Jesus will not return to corruption.

Share this post

Link to post

I watched the movie and enjoyed it. I think Martin Luther undoubtedly changed the world. So much so that Michael King changed his name to Martin Luther King and changed the world again. Yes he was anti-Semitic at times but he was hardly responsible for all anti Semitic acts in history--I think the Eugenics movement should shoulder a portion of that responsibility. Luther was a great man and great men have great flaws. Just an aside--I got the impression as I watched the documentary that he may have been somewhat bipolar.

Share this post

Link to post

What was said is that Christianity did not come to exist as a religion separate and distinct from the mainstream Jewish sects of the Apostolic period until some 70 years after the ascension of Christ. Really? The religion of Christ and the apostles would have been viewed by the Jews of that day as another mainstream (!) sect of Judaism? How can this be when the New Testament most emphatically says otherwise? Do you realize most of the mainstream Jews of that day believed Jesus was the illegitimate son of a Roman Centurion and an immoral Jewish mother? That Jesus was a false Messiah who was, in reality, a drunken, blasphemous child of the devil? That Jesus was an occult magician who used the powers of darkness to feign miracles? That his body was stolen from the sepulcher by his disciples so they could spread abroad the lie that he was raised from the dead? All of these things would have been understood and accepted as being part a legitimate sect of mainstream Judaism? I don't think so. Christianity was persecuted by the mainstream Jews precisely because it was seen as being wildly heretical and about as non-mainstream as a purportedJewish sect could get.

Jesus did shake up the party. You guys seem to have missed the entire point of the Messiah. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Of course "THEY" didn't all get it. THEY didn't want to (although obviously there were some among the priests who did) ---- Nicodemus being a perfect example. Even how the sanhedrin handled the interrogation of Jesus was against Mosaic Law. Jesus healed the sick, made the lame to walk, brought the dead back to life, forgave sin, etc., etc., etc... They simply didn't want to believe. They were insincere and self-righteous. And the simple fact is that Jesus gave up His life ------ no one ever took it from Him.

Share this post

Link to post

Jesus did shake up the party. You guys seem to have missed the entire point of the Messiah. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Of course "THEY" didn't all get it. THEY didn't want to (although obviously there were some among the priests who did) ---- Nicodemus being a perfect example. Even how the sanhedrin handled the interrogation of Jesus was against Mosaic Law. Jesus healed the sick, made the lame to walk, brought the dead back to life, forgave sin, etc., etc., etc... They simply didn't want to believe. They were insincere and self-righteous. And the simple fact is that Jesus gave up His life ------ no one ever took it from Him.

We quite clearly understand that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament (the Law of Moses) and that if the Jews had understood their religion they would have accepted him as their Savior. My point is simply that though there was a small group who accepted him -- and even they were largely in the dark till the day of Pentecost -- the reality is that most Jews utterly rejected him and thought they were doing God a service when they hated and refused to believe him.

You seem to be saying early Jerusalem-centered Christianity must be considered a mainstream Jewish sect just because it should have been considered a mainstream Jewish sect by the vast majority of Jews who actually rejected and attempted to stamp it out of existence. In history, what should have been is all too often not how things turned out to be.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware

Share this post

Link to post

We quite clearly understand that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament (the Law of Moses) and that if the Jews had understood their religion they would have accepted him as their Savior. My point is simply that though there was a small group who accepted him -- and even they were largely in the dark till the day of Pentecost -- the reality is that most Jews utterly rejected him and thought they were doing God a service when they hated and refused to believe him.

You seem to be saying early Jerusalem-centered Christianity must be considered a mainstream Jewish sect just because it should have been considered a mainstream Jewish sect by the vast majority of Jews who actually rejected and attempted to stamp it out of existence. In history, what should have been is all too often not how things turned out to be.

Not at all. This all started when someone said that Jesus wasn't a Jew. Well, if Jesus wasn't a Jew, it's because He wasn't a Christian either. He is as you say the fulfillment of everything the Bible reveals.

34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead,nowno more to return tocorruption, he said on this wise, I will give you theasuremercies of David.

The phrase "no more to return to corruption" is speaking to the fact that the body of the resurrected Christ will never die again and decay in the grave. The verse has nothing to do with the condition of the earth and its inhabitants at the time of his Second Coming.

Share this post

Link to post

The phrase "no more to return to corruption" is speaking to the fact that the body of the resurrected Christ will never die again and decay in the grave. The verse has nothing to do with the condition of the earth and its inhabitants at the time of his Second Coming.

If you say so...

But He has said Jerusalem would not see Him again until they say blessed is he that come in the name of YHWH. This will happen at the last. The Jews will be some of the last to convert. And there are those who are last who will be first. Then the millennium will come to its full fruition.

Share this post

Link to post

But He has said Jerusalem would not see Him again until they say blessed is he that come in the name of YHWH. This will happen at the last. The Jews will be some of the last to convert. And there are those who are last who will be first. Then the millennium will come to its full fruition.

Most translations speak specifically of Christ never again decaying in the grave.

There are portions of scripture that speak of Christ returning personally to the earth at his Second Coming to destroy the wicked in order to cleanse the earth from unrighteousness, that he might rule and reign on a terrestrialized earth. The following verses speak to this point:

48 And the Lord shall be red in his apparel, and his garments like him that treadeth in the wine-vat.

49 And so great shall be the glory of his presence that the sun shall hide his face in shame, and the moon shall withhold its light, and the stars shall be hurled from their places.

50 And his voice shall be heard: I have trodden the wine-press alone, and have brought judgment upon all people; and none were with me;

51 And I have trampled them in my fury, and I did tread upon them in mine anger, and their blood have I sprinkled upon my garments, and stained all my raiment; for this was the day of vengeance which was in my heart.

52 And now the year of my redeemed is come (the millennium) ; and they shall mention the loving kindness of their Lord, and all that he has bestowed upon them according to his goodness, and according to his loving kindness, forever and ever. (D&C 133)

Share this post

Link to post

Most translations speak specifically of Christ never again decaying in the grave.

There are portions of scripture that speak of Christ returning personally to the earth at his Second Coming to destroy the wicked in order to cleanse the earth from unrighteousness, that he might rule and reign on a terrestrialized earth. The following verses speak to this point:

That is a matter of interpretation. Are you saying He is going to stain His garments with blood again? He already did that. Yeshua and YHWH are not necessarily the same thing. No scripture says the Father is called Yeshua, but He is YHWH.

As for destroying the wicked, it is written that His angels will pluck out the wicked.

Share this post

Link to post

That is a matter of interpretation. Are you saying He is going to stain His garments with blood again? He already did that. Yeshua and YHWH are not necessarily the same thing. No scripture says the Father is called Yeshua, but He is YHWH.

As for destroying the wicked, it is written that His angels will pluck out the wicked.

In D&C 133, it is the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ who will say the following at his Second Coming:

"And I have trampled them in my fury, and I did tread upon them in mine anger, and their blood have I sprinkled upon my garments, and stained all my raiment; for this (the Second Coming) was the day of vengeance which was in my heart.

Share this post

Link to post

In D&C 133, it is the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ who will say the following at his Second Coming:

"And I have trampled them in my fury, and I did tread upon them in mine anger, and their blood have I sprinkled upon my garments, and stained all my raiment; for this (the Second Coming) was the day of vengeance which was in my heart.

Again, you are interposing interpretation. What is the second coming? Is that when He comes in the clouds or when He is seen in Jerusalem again? Are you saying He is going to return and direct men to trample others? Or is going to do it Himself?

These verses are from that same section 133:

18When theLambshall stand uponMount Zion, and with him ahundredand forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

57And for this cause, that men might be madepartakers of theglorieswhich were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of hisgospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—

Share this post

Link to post

It in no way compares with the calling of death, forced conversions and wars, that have sought to eliminate an entire tribe of people. The NT does not call for any such actions, although it has been used to inspire such actions.

It's probably the inspiration for a lot of that. But at the time, it wasn't like Christianity was this huge monolith oppressing the Jews. They were both oppressed under the Romans. Christians started white washing Roman involvement in Jesus' death and putting the blame on "the Jews". Probably a form of self preservation after the Jewish rebellion that lead to the destruction of the temple.

Share this post

Link to post

If you view the program they do delve into this. It seems Luther became frustrated that Jews on the whole at that time didn't embrace the message of salvation. Martin Luther doesn't believe nor do I that he was some prophet.

That is an interesting admission. Especially since "The Bible" says, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Martin Luther certainly had a very large influence on Protestantism, but clearly a significant portion was NOT for the good.

Share this post

Link to post

And I believe your prophet concocted a false addendum to the Word of GOD.

You are free to believe what ever you want. But you have no evidence to support your position.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.