Welcome to GYOW. When you register, you can track threads you find interesting, you can Like/+1 posts you like, you can search without filling in a Captcha. And you might like being part of the MGTOW community. Registering is free.

Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Society seems to glorify marriage and family, especially with the production of kids, as the most noble mission a person can fulfill in this life. Especially the woman that becomes a mother, is elevated to another plane of existence in the societal consciousness. It's an instant door opener and can render a previously insignificant & dull woman into a heroic privilidged figure "worthy of admiration and protection".

Some MGTOWs on the other hand go to the other defensive extreme and say things like family is trash. It's a deadend. A rigged game. An overglorified parody. A matriarchical scheme to perpetuate male opression.

Both approaches imo are extreme because they lack discretion and are not put into context.

Society says: "Family is a sacred institution". Really mofos of society? Shall we remind them, that Hitler and Mao came from families too? Every genocider, serial killer, rapist, female or male psychopath, manipulator, greedy conartist and thief. All those came from a family as well. They didnt grow in the bushes. (Well they grew inside a "bush" once but thats for another discussion).

So its not family that is sacred, sacred people make a family sacred. If the parents are toxic, filled with baggage, traumas from their own parents and past, and they inherit this toxicity to their kids, this is not a blessing its a CRIME.

Every neurosis, every vice, every droplet of malevolence, genetically inherited or epigenetically learnt, that will form a kid into a future human citizen that coexists amongst others, and even produce other human beings, carries huge responsibility with it.

Why do people usually go to marriage though? Is it a conscious decision of two mature and spiritual individuals that do it out of abundance? If only reality was that optimistic, in 90% of cases its not even deliberate not to mention being comprised by individuals who can be considered a pinnacle of maturity. What is usually the tragic and depressive profile of most marriages:

1)First of all usualy the kid wasnt even wanted. It was ... "an accident". And the whole marriage theatre was built around this invasive reality.
2)Most do it for no other reason than... the aforementioned social proof. The status that comes with it. But have nowhere near the maturity to support this role, and in their narcissistic and immature state they reduce it to a small scale civil war zone, where the conflicts and tensions inside the family inevitably arise when the facades of best intent are revealed.
3)Medicating a trauma or even worse boredom. Many proceed to this, especially women when they find no fulfilment in the rest of their life and believe that this will be the paradigm shift they've always been waiting for. I cannot think for a worse reason, and imagine the toll it will have on the kids when they are nothing but the extension of the parents' ego.
4)Out of financial interest, which reduces one partner into the provider, and not rarely into the self inflicted victim of an unrequited, one sided love.
5)Fear of loneliness, of societal ridicule, trying to please whiney parents etc. Tragic, just tragic but nowhere near rare unfortunately.

With all that in mind, we should ask wether family or marriage is sacred, but wtf are we doing allowing and even glorifying all those destructive, irresponsible marriages. Marriage is not a status medal to pin on your chest, its a huge ass responsibility and lifetime maturity process. Every inheritance you have from your folks, and every experience and choice you make since childhood, shape you into the parent that you will become.

Sociaty makes the false equation of family= sacrifice. There are so many abandoned kids, if not physically, even worse emotionally, where parents are present but also absent in terms of empathy and love towards them, that makes the mere thought of the equation ridiculous. Marriage and family has the potential to be something glorious but it rarely actually is.

When MGTOWs say they wont take those broken thots in, as well as their own issues to form a caricature family, just because others want it, they actually do a service to society. What family can you make with those women that have abolished all sense of connection? And they will become what kind of mothers exactly? So for 25-30 years she is an irresponsible, character-free bimbo, and now she will magically become a mother and wife? Is there some magic pill she will take and have a whole new human character implanted in her? It doesn't work this way i'm afraid. MGTOWs view the toxicity and do not congratulate it. Some other times they mistake it as inherent to the institution or the relationship dynamics. But that is a trap. It's always on the individual in the end of the day.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

I'm not so sure if Western society really glorifies marriage anymore or motherhood. I think society plays this weird game of just trying to glorify women and keep them happy even if it often contradicts itself all the time.

Marriage in non Western countries is quite often just something out of family pressure. They go along with it for fear of having to live without mommy and daddy's support.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

The natural way is chaos. It works.
Every nutcase animal is allowed to do whatever crazy thing it wants. If he survives, then he is not crazy after all. If he reproduces, and his "craziness" is passed on as a new advantage, then its an evolutionary step for the specie.
But if what he does is worthless, then he will die, and so does his descendants. (The exception being koalas)

The problem arises when man thinks that he is above nature, and saves those that would naturally be marked for extinction.
Every sort of non-productive and misguided behaviour is shielded from consequences.

And that is why man should not play God, we suck on this role. We are much better playing the devil's role.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Originally Posted by Manfred

The natural way is chaos. It works.
Every nutcase animal is allowed to do whatever crazy thing it wants. If he survives, then he is not crazy after all. If he reproduces, and his "craziness" is passed on as a new advantage, then its an evolutionary step for the specie.
But if what he does is worthless, then he will die, and so does his descendants. (The exception being koalas)

The problem arises when man thinks that he is above nature, and saves those that would naturally be marked for extinction.
Every sort of non-productive and misguided behaviour is shielded from consequences.

And that is why man should not play God, we suck on this role. We are much better playing the devil's role.

Yes , but after soviet union collapsed i witnessed quite a bit of chaos and it was madness .

What we have today is a kindergarten .

What most government can do its to put you in prison and todays prison is a sanctuary hospice compared to what i had to live through .

Im very happy on how things are today .

Women are harmless creatures when you dont talk to them ...

You cant keep a player down!
Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Originally Posted by MenWithoutChains

Society seems to glorify marriage and family, especially with the production of kids, as the most noble mission a person can fulfill in this life. Especially the woman that becomes a mother, is elevated to another plane of existence in the societal consciousness. It's an instant door opener and can render a previously insignificant & dull woman into a heroic privilidged figure "worthy of admiration and protection".

Some MGTOWs on the other hand go to the other defensive extreme and say things like family is trash. It's a deadend. A rigged game. An overglorified parody. A matriarchical scheme to perpetuate male opression.
Both approaches imo are extreme because they lack discretion and are not put into context.

Most MGTOW these day will claim that the family as you state it no longer exists. No fault divorce means a permanent pairbonding, the family unit itself, has become unstable. And the fallout from the instability falls to the primary provider - usually the man. THAT is where the game is rigged, and why it is a dead end at present. I doubt you'll hear many MGTOW argue against the fact that the family is the best social structure for raising children - because well, frankly, a few millennia of history tells us it is. It's just unlikely to form stable families in currentday society. Which is why it is happening less and less.
Oh, and your opening statement brilliantly shows another double standard. "Woman pops out a few kids? She's achieved her life goal. Man becomes a father? Well, his job is just starting then..."

Society says: "Family is a sacred institution". Really mofos of society? Shall we remind them, that Hitler and Mao came from families too? Every genocider, serial killer, rapist, female or male psychopath, manipulator, greedy conartist and thief. All those came from a family as well. They didnt grow in the bushes. (Well they grew inside a "bush" once but thats for another discussion). So its not family that is sacred, sacred people make a family sacred. If the parents are toxic, filled with baggage, traumas from their own parents and past, and they inherit this toxicity to their kids, this is not a blessing its a CRIME. Every neurosis, every vice, every droplet of malevolence, genetically inherited or epigenetically learnt, that will form a kid into a future human citizen that coexists amongst others, and even produce other human beings, carries huge responsibility with it.

Bit of a strawman there. "Every child has a mother, all mothers are women, so all women are evil. Every child has a father, all fathers are men, so all men are evil." That kind of argument doesn't make any statement, just appeals to emotion. We're all products of our parents biologically, and of society socially. That's common knowledge.

Why do people usually go to marriage though? Is it a conscious decision of two mature and spiritual individuals that do it out of abundance? If only reality was that optimistic, in 90% of cases its not even deliberate not to mention being comprised by individuals who can be considered a pinnacle of maturity. What is usually the tragic and depressive profile of most marriages:
1)First of all usualy the kid wasnt even wanted. It was ... "an accident". And the whole marriage theatre was built around this invasive reality.
2)Most do it for no other reason than... the aforementioned social proof. The status that comes with it. But have nowhere near the maturity to support this role, and in their narcissistic and immature state they reduce it to a small scale civil war zone, where the conflicts and tensions inside the family inevitably arise when the facades of best intent are revealed.
3)Medicating a trauma or even worse boredom. Many proceed to this, especially women when they find no fulfilment in the rest of their life and believe that this will be the paradigm shift they've always been waiting for. I cannot think for a worse reason, and imagine the toll it will have on the kids when they are nothing but the extension of the parents' ego.
4)Out of financial interest, which reduces one partner into the provider, and not rarely into the self inflicted victim of an unrequited, one sided love.
5)Fear of loneliness, of societal ridicule, trying to please whiney parents etc. Tragic, just tragic but nowhere near rare unfortunately.

6: For legal reasons and tax benefits. Formalizing a relation can result in greater income or other legal benefits.
But the most common reason I think is 'cause the lass is dropping hints she wants the man to commit. At least, that used to be the case. Todays women are indoctrinated to demand independence, which is not unifyable with the codependent state of marriage. Probably also a reason why the marriage rate is low and dropping...

With all that in mind, we should ask wether family or marriage is sacred, but wtf are we doing allowing and even glorifying all those destructive, irresponsible marriages. Marriage is not a status medal to pin on your chest, its a huge ass responsibility and lifetime maturity process. Every inheritance you have from your folks, and every experience and choice you make since childhood, shape you into the parent that you will become.
Sociaty makes the false equation of family= sacrifice. There are so many abandoned kids, if not physically, even worse emotionally, where parents are present but also absent in terms of empathy and love towards them, that makes the mere thought of the equation ridiculous. Marriage and family has the potential to be something glorious but it rarely actually is.

Marriage isn't sacred. It's a formalization of a permanent pairbonding that has existed probably as long as society itself has. Maybe even longer. Religions worldwide have snatched it up to make and twist it into something sacred, as yet another control scheme. After all, if a priest gets to decide who may love and bond with eachother, that gives him a pretty strong powerbase. But I digress.
A society that neglects its next generation is one that will not exist for long. To quote Happy Humble Hermit: Enjoy the decline. It is one of the reasons I do not suspect I'll ever be a father. I do not wish to inflict the state of this world on any child of mine.

When MGTOWs say they wont take those broken thots in, as well as their own issues to form a caricature family, just because others want it, they actually do a service to society. What family can you make with those women that have abolished all sense of connection? And they will become what kind of mothers exactly? So for 25-30 years she is an irresponsible, character-free bimbo, and now she will magically become a mother and wife? Is there some magic pill she will take and have a whole new human character implanted in her? It doesn't work this way i'm afraid. MGTOWs view the toxicity and do not congratulate it. Some other times they mistake it as inherent to the institution or the relationship dynamics. But that is a trap. It's always on the individual in the end of the day.

You're spot on here. These broken women have no maternal instinct, or they'd not have gone for the party girl/career woman option in the first place. I'm reminded of Calhouns mouse utopia experiment - where the female mice eventually also lost the maternal instinct and abandoned their offspring. I see parallels to our current society. A born again "traditional" woman is something we'll be seeing more and more of, but us MGTOW are calling bullshit on this ahead of time. If these women are actually pushed into the hardship of motherhood, they are likely to bail on it and take half a mans stuff in the process.

Shame is a womans primary weapon. Watch for it, and call it out wherever you see it. Few women know how to handle a man immune to shame.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Originally Posted by Manfred

The natural way is chaos. It works.
Every nutcase animal is allowed to do whatever crazy thing it wants. If he survives, then he is not crazy after all. If he reproduces, and his "craziness" is passed on as a new advantage, then its an evolutionary step for the specie.
But if what he does is worthless, then he will die, and so does his descendants. (The exception being koalas)

The problem arises when man thinks that he is above nature, and saves those that would naturally be marked for extinction.
Every sort of non-productive and misguided behaviour is shielded from consequences.

And that is why man should not play God, we suck on this role. We are much better playing the devil's role.

I am sorry man. But i nowhere near can agree. Survival doesnt equal virtue and humanity. Only sociopathic nihilism tries to animalise humans to excuse its malevolence. We can trascend our instincts and unlike animals we have values. Humans can not pass down genetically and be more virtuous and humane than those who did. I see no truth in this statement you presented whatsoever. The result doesnt justify the means. Let's not lose our human hearts in this MGTOW journey. Let's not give nihilism this joy.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

@

AeternusDoleo Thanks for the input. For the point about family strawman case, it was not what i meant maybe i didnt clarify properly. I was merely pointing out to the reality that family is a double edged sword, it can produce from the ultimate virtue, to the ultimate malevolence. It's the living cell of society, and the microscale of its condition. When they view it as an achievement they are misguided. Everyone can oopen their legs/shove a rod somewhere, the achievement begins when you produce better humans for the world.

As for the last point, not only that, remember it is also a trained hardwired mindset. Imagine a girl that had daddy pay for all in her life, never learnt to take grave responsibilities, a girl that trained her mind to be the eternal victim, how will she carry the burdain of wifery and motherhood. She never learnt to set realistic goals, and only sees the world through the pink goggles of wishful thinking and ungrounded dreaming. Her husband will become the extension of the daddy she never clinged off from. Her kid the blackmail that will keep this man around. Its ridiculous how many millions of unfit people for parenthood actually become parents.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Look, you are clearly trying to appeal to our emotions; and let me tell you, YOU will FAIL. No genuine MGTOW will accept what you are saying.

These kind of posts should be in the opposing views section; not the lounge.

You confuse the "their" own way part in MGTOW, with YOUR own way part. I am not and neither are you some advocate for MGTOW as its not an ideology, you just share opinions like all of us. I live as one, like some of its general ideas but also pose some of my own. What was exactly anti-MGTOW? I just spoke psychology and societal observations. If you dont like my articles you are welcome of course to not read them or thumb them up, but going all strawman on them holds no meaning. Nihilism is indeed a problem, its an appeal to your humanity. You are not detached from your emotions as they tie with your godgiven conscience. The detachment is the sociopathic view of the world. Just because society kicked the bucket morally, we dont have to let it take us down with it. I dont have to benefit anything from you becoming a better, less nihilistic person. But yourself has, and humanity has.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Originally Posted by MenWithoutChains

I am sorry man. But i nowhere near can agree. Survival doesnt equal virtue and humanity. Only sociopathic nihilism tries to animalise humans to excuse its malevolence. We can trascend our instincts and unlike animals we have values. Humans can not pass down genetically and be more virtuous and humane than those who did. I see no truth in this statement you presented whatsoever. The result doesnt justify the means. Let's not lose our human hearts in this MGTOW journey. Let's not give nihilism this joy.

As Opaque once posted - somehow upper classes never fuck their mind with such things .

Business is pure survival . And everything is just business .

And if you are not doing business ...guess what ? Business does you !

Higher values is for slaves to be even better slaves .

Its very valuable for business though

You cant keep a player down!
Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Originally Posted by MenWithoutChains

I am sorry man. But i nowhere near can agree. Survival doesnt equal virtue and humanity. Only sociopathic nihilism tries to animalise humans to excuse its malevolence. We can trascend our instincts and unlike animals we have values. Humans can not pass down genetically and be more virtuous and humane than those who did. I see no truth in this statement you presented whatsoever. The result doesnt justify the means. Let's not lose our human hearts in this MGTOW journey. Let's not give nihilism this joy.

Tell me you dont check out chicks with a nice ass

Tell me you do not think every 5 minutes of how much money there is in your bank account ...

Tell me you do not masturbate thinking about that chick i dont know how old she is

Very high values me and you have ha ?

Its a wrong forum for this bullshit . As somebody once said - you are talking to men . Not to blue pill cucs that still believ they are going to make it in this life ... For fuck sake .

You cant keep a player down!
Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

As Opaque once posted - somehow upper classes never fuck their mind with such things .

It is a perfect system of manipulation - be a better person, don't be greedy, don't be nihilistic, just because others are morally corrupt; you don't have to be morally corrupt and so on the circus goes, and while you are discussing these issues of morality, you are getting fucked by the elites.

It is a fantastic tactic which serves the purpose of DIVERSION. Same thing the OP is getting up to, I suspect.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Originally Posted by Opaque

It is a perfect system of manipulation - be a better person, don't be greedy, don't be nihilistic, just because others are morally corrupt; you don't have to be morally corrupt and so on the circus goes, and while you are discussing these issues of morality, you are getting fucked by the elites.

It is a fantastic tactic which serves the purpose of DIVERSION. Same thing the OP is getting up to, I suspect.

Its a no brainer . I have seen it way too many times in my life .

In times when there is a lot of work the business man will be greeting you at the door with smiles and free hugs and telling you how he wants to see you tomorrow .

The very day the job is done and come payday lol its like talking to an alien . It doesnt matter the personality of the business man .

Its the same in Africa , same in Afghanistan , same in Australia , same in Tuvalu island , same in Bahamas ...

Business is same around the world and there are not even exceptions to prove the axiom ... Fuck .

You cant keep a player down!
Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Originally Posted by MenWithoutChains

Society seems to glorify marriage and family, especially with the production of kids, as the most noble mission a person can fulfill in this life.Especially the woman that becomes a mother, is elevated to another plane of existence in the societal consciousness. It's an instant door opener and can render a previously insignificant & dull woman into a heroic privilidged figure "worthy of admiration and protection".

Some MGTOWs on the other hand go to the other defensive extreme and say things like family is trash. It's a deadend. A rigged game. An overglorified parody. A matriarchical scheme to perpetuate male opression.

Both approaches imo are extreme because they lack discretion and are not put into context.

Ok, so if blind glorification of marriage and motherhood is one (wrong) extreme; and MGTOW is the other (equally wrong) extreme; what are you actually proposing as your golden mean? Get married, but with a bulletproof prenup? There is no such thing. Get married, but be an alpha male husband/father with a tame wife? First, good luck with that in today's legal climate; and second, why bother?

Is the fact that it's an extreme the reason that MGTOW is wrong? Why? Why is an extreme necessarily wrong? If not, then what actually is the problem with the MGTOW attitude?

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

Mr. Chains, you seem to like it here. That's good, and I have no desire to take that away, though I have made fun of you a few times.

But you got to find a way to express yourself without sounding like you think we need or want a plantation job. It's way too late for that, all it does is piss us off. We have nothing against you being more traditional if you want, but don't even suggest that we would be happier back on the farm.

Re: Re-evaluating family, motherhood and parenthood in general.

If you think MGTOW is extreme you haven't listened to feminist arguments. Feminists want to jail people that disagree with them or don't agree with their victimhood olympics. No one will ever be jailed for disagreeing with some one that is mgtow!

I can disagree with red pillers, PUAs, tradcons all day every day but I would never advocate for these men to be jailed by the thought police.