So are there any slash developers on this list paying attention to this =
exchange or is everyone on vacation still?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel wonders: Are you addicted to moderation?
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----=20
From: i18n=20
To: Malcolm Lawrence=20
Cc: slashcode-development@...=20
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
I was on vacation right after I wrote that but am back now. I am =
interested. I think it would be a fine addition for slash. Other CMS's I =
have looked at (only a small subset of what is out there, but still) do =
support Unicode. After all, XML is by definition to be in Unicode.
How difficult this would be is hard to say without doing a code =
analysis, talking with the developers to understand plans for the =
future, and so forth. I'd be interested to hear from the developers if =
this is the sort of big bang feature that they can see being part of =
Slash going forward.
Best,
Barry
Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to =
deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions =
to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to =
support
Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that =
is
all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
So who wants to help thread Slash with Unicode? How difficult would it =
be
and how long would it take?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel knows: It is not unpatriotic to exercise your rights and it is
un-American to suggest otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>
To: <slashcode-development@...>; "Barry Caplan"
<bcaplan@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to =
deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to
support
Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then =
that is
all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel knows: People who don't work with their hands are parasites.
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Barry Caplan" <bcaplan@...>
To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>;
<slashcode-development@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
At 06:23 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to
indicate
language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware
of
all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element =
can
be
implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll =
have
to
do. They're pretty, too.
Hmm. I guess I wasn't clear enough on this point.
There is not one single professional localizer on the face of the earth
that would recommend flags as an UI element indicating locale.
I hope that is plain enough. If not, at least it will turn up in =
google
for someone someday who will read why and decide to not use flags. =
)
The reasons, as I enumerated some of them, fall in the general =
category
of
"They don't have a one to one relationship with what is being =
described"
and
"users have visceral, political feelings about them, usually =
rightfully
so".
Example: I am an English speaker in the US. I sometimes see a UK Union
Jack flag which is meant to indicate English text. But does it? Or =
is it
something more specifically about the UK that lurks in that site? What
about
people in other countries? Do I have to know their flags too? =
Australia's
first language is English - what flag should they use on their sites to
indicate English localization?
Example: I live in Silicon Valley where > 30% of people do not speak
English as a first language at home (maybe > 50%! I forget so I =
will go
with
the conservative value for now). So if I have content that is US =
locale
based, but localized into various languages such as Chinese, Spanish,
Vietnamese, etc., what flags shall I use? If not US, then what one to =
use
again falls into the problem just mentioned - e.g. Spanish is spoken =
many
places, and is not the same Spanish everywhere anymore then English is
universal.
And even if I somehow choose a flag, then what if the same language =
is
used in a different place on the site? I surely won't be using the =
Taiwan
flag everywhere there is Chinese, nor the PRC flag. Except in those 2
countries, it is hard to see which would be appropriate without =
offending.
Finally, take a look at Canada. With 2 official languages (English =
and
French), what does a Maple Leaf flag say about the language of =
the
material
behind it? Nothing at all! But it might say something very serious =
about
political issues you don't mean to say!
The reason there are no generally accepted icons to represent locale =
is,
quite frankly, because there are none to be had.
It is not as though people have not put a lot of thought and hard =
earned
experience into this, looking for a good way. They have. A lot of =
people
and
a lot of time.
If it is pretty you want, then make whatever you do pretty, whatever
that
means to you. You can do that and have plain text too. Photoshop works
wonders for that :)
For an example of a pretty good effort, look at how yahoo.com =
indicates
locales on their pages. That basic technical approach, coupled =
with
whatever
UI beautification is needed for your site, is a pretty good way to go.
As for if slashcode supports Unicode, I don't know as it has been =
well
over a year since I looked at it. How complicated that would be to =
do is a
matter of conjecture - there are technical, testing, and management =
issues
to consider. I have done just that with closed source code that was far
more
complex then slashcode, so I am confident it could be done. That it =
hasn't
been done until now (if it hasn't been done) strikes me a a combination =
of
all three factors.
AFIK Unicode support is de rigeur for any new project that hopes to
scale.
For any existing project that hopes to stick around with a worldwide =
user
base, then the switch is going to need to be made. I think I may be
volunteering to work with the developers to understand what the effort
level
and tasks should be, so that people can sign onto them in a coherent
fashion. But my experience is that this sort of conversion does need to =
be
coordinated very closely with any other ongoing development, otherwise =
it
is
just a fork in the code and no one wants that. Managing the codelines =
so
they don't fork (or they do but they merge back together at a defined
point
more likely) is something I can definitely bring to the table.
"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and
display
properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers,
that
is
possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right =
character
encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying
multiple
languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect =
of a
site
called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be
able
to
deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment
posted.
Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all
internal
processing in Unicode?
Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs =
to deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make =
conversions
to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data.
If slash is rewritten to support Unicode instead of whatever it is =
now
(ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is all there is to it as far as =
the
database is concerned. Even templates could then be in many languages,
even
within a template if so desired.
In your case, you probably would not need to go to subdomains unless =
you
wanted to - you could just have slash sections for each language. =
And if
someone posted Chinese on the French page, so what? slash won't care so
neither should you. Trust me you don't want a case statement for every
codeset dependent feature in the code. Your domain name pretty much sums
up
the reason why that is the case :)
Best,
Barry
=20
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