Are you for it or against it? Do you want non-Americans to take jobs away from actual citizens? Do you want your taxes to pay for an increase in the welfare rolls? Do you want to see your neighbor or relative unemployed, while an illegal is working at a job they could have had?

You Pay. You Decide.

Do you want to keep paying taxes to support non citizens? BTW, over $4.2 BILLION of your money goes to SUPPORT them every year.Your choice.

If you actually want to pay taxes to support non-citizens, that's OK too. It's called tolerance. Or getting it up your cornhole. Same difference.

Discuss.

_________________

January 22nd, 2014, 11:44 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: Illegal Immigration.

You're blurring the lines, Sly.

This is actually several different complex issues rather than just one black and white issue like you want to make it out as.

First, there's the economic side: Do immigrants hurt the economy? No, quite the opposite, actually. And they don't steal anyone's job. The economy isn't a zero-sum game -- that's an economic fallacy often parroted by uneducated liberals. Now, if you happen to be a totally unskilled laborer making $7 an hour washing dishes or picking fruit, then you may face some additional competition, or be forced to accept a lower wage. But if you have any skills at all, then the uneducated border jumper is actually going to make your life better by keeping prices down throughout the economy.

Second, there's the welfare side: back the truck up. Why does it matter if someone is an illegal immigrant or a US citizen? Most illegal immigrants come here because they want to make a better life for themselves, they're actually trying. Meanwhile, the scum in the trailer parks and inner-cities has developed a generational dependence on US governments' handouts. So why is it OK for the government to take my money and give it to some bum who just happened to be born here, but suddenly not OK if they were born in say Mexico and made it to the US? The welfare state in and of itself is a terrible idea -- the identity of the people receiving the handouts is irrelevant.

Third, there's the issue of freedom: in the 1950s, it was a point of pride that we didn't stop and check people's papers, unlike in the Soviet Union were moving around was strictly controlled by the government. The walls you want to build could just as easily be used to keep people in.

As I stated before, you are a fascist that wants and approves of government handouts to the very rich.

As a tea partier, I want NO hand outs. I want a level playing field so that Joe Blow can compete with Best Buy. I want the corner party store to be able to compete with Walmart. Why is this wrong? More competition results in better service and prices. How can the consumer argue with that? That's right. you don't give a crap about the consumer because you're part of the establishment. FU!

What's funny is that the majority of blacks are advocating for the legalization of those that will take their jobs. How does it feel to be on the Democratic Plantation where you're a slave to a white liberal? Feels good, huh? Keep voting for your masters and you'll end up like Detroit.

Start voting conservative, where hard work is rewarded. Stop voting Democrat who promise everything, but deliver nothing. How has the war on poverty worked out over the past 50 years?

_________________

January 23rd, 2014, 1:45 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: Illegal Immigration.

This is a country founded on illegal immigration, unless you happen to be Apache, Mohican, Cherokee, Sioux, Navajo, or the like.

As I stated before, you are a fascist that wants and approves of government handouts to the very rich.

As a tea partier, I want NO hand outs. I want a level playing field so that Joe Blow can compete with Best Buy. I want the corner party store to be able to compete with Walmart. Why is this wrong? More competition results in better service and prices. How can the consumer argue with that? That's right. you don't give a crap about the consumer because you're part of the establishment. FU!

What's funny is that the majority of blacks are advocating for the legalization of those that will take their jobs. How does it feel to be on the Democratic Plantation where you're a slave to a white liberal? Feels good, huh? Keep voting for your masters and you'll end up like Detroit.

Start voting conservative, where hard work is rewarded. Stop voting Democrat who promise everything, but deliver nothing. How has the war on poverty worked out over the past 50 years?

Literally nothing you said refutes anything I wrote. All you did was hurl insults.

I'll give you a 10/10 if trolling; 0/10 if you're serious.

January 23rd, 2014, 10:24 am

DJ-B

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: April 5th, 2007, 5:51 pmPosts: 2347

Re: Illegal Immigration.

As a southern Ca Resident all my life, I have long had major issues with Illegal Immigration. I wrote an 8 page paper Pushing the construction of a Border wall from Texas to Cal in High School, and justified the cost (easily) by current (at the time) and future cost. I have nothing against Mexicans, especially those who seek a better life for their family. That said, their are proper channels for immigration. They are breaking our Laws. Those Laws aren't archaic or stupid, just as (IMO) a purely open border would be naive and idiotic. It is an affront to my sensibilities as a Law Abiding Citizen when we discuss ways to REWARD those who break our Laws. Yes, it even bothers me more than redneck trailer trash living on welfare. That is its own problem that should be dealt with, but saying "Well we've got this one fudge up system, and I hate the person who uses that, so why wouldn't we let other (law breaking noncitizens) also take advantage of this broken system" makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I also think they need to redefine what being born a US Citizen means. Running across the border pregnant to a border city hospital to give birth does not make the child a citizen of both parents were not. Im sorry if my opinions offend anyone, but ive been in so cal for my entire life and it is a very legit concern with anyone who lives in an area that is being overrun, partially because of the allowance and ENCOURAGEMENT of Illegal Immigration.

P.S. - I am a Social Liberal Fiscal Conservative (like many of the unrepresented in this country) so this is not a "Gun Toting Bible Thumping Point of View", but a realist POV for someone that voted for Bush Twice, and then for Obama twice. Illegal Immigration is a real issue, and the Amnesty/Auto-citizenship being discussed/pushed around the last few years physically makes me sick to my stomach.

January 24th, 2014, 1:02 pm

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1262

Re: Illegal Immigration.

slybri19 wrote:

Are you for it or against it? Do you want non-Americans to take jobs away from actual citizens? Do you want your taxes to pay for an increase in the welfare rolls? Do you want to see your neighbor or relative unemployed, while an illegal is working at a job they could have had?

You Pay. You Decide.

Do you want to keep paying taxes to support non citizens? BTW, over $4.2 BILLION of your money goes to SUPPORT them every year.Your choice.

If you actually want to pay taxes to support non-citizens, that's OK too. It's called tolerance. Or getting it up your cornhole. Same difference.

My mother is a first generation American. Her parents and her older brothers went through Ellis Island and became legal immigrants. I love that people want to come her and legally obtain citizenship. The ones who do not want to go through legal channels should be locked up or deported. About the only illegal I can think of who deserved citizenship was Elian Gonzalez, but Billary and Janet Reno wouldn't intervene, and now Elian is a poster boy for all things Communist Cuba.

I am against building a fence because it is a foolish enterprise. I am much more for getting rid of the magnet that draws illegals here. Stop giving them a public education. Don't give them medical. Don't give them food stamps or unemployment or any kind of public assistance at all. More, fine and/or jail any businesses that hire illegals (including Hollywood A listers who hire them as nanny's, gardeners and pool boys, not to mention upstairs maids). Fine and/or jail businesses who provide them housing. A child born to parents here illegally should not qualify as an American citizen. Deport the lot of them.

Until any of that happens, anyone who wishes to keep them here, keep them at your house. Ditto the Catholic Church. Just open your friggin doors and give them shelter. Let them drink your wine and eat your food for the poor (says this Catholic boy). America is our home. If we don't not take care of it, who will?

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

January 24th, 2014, 2:48 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Quote:

Stop giving them a public education. Don't give them medical. Don't give them food stamps or unemployment or any kind of public assistance at all.

Agree, 100%. But I would extend it to all Americans.

Please someone explain to me why there's a difference here. Because someone was born across the other side of a line someone drew on a map?

January 24th, 2014, 3:17 pm

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1262

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Blueskies wrote:

Please someone explain to me why there's a difference here. Because someone was born across the other side of a line someone drew on a map?

It is the same difference as you having control over your home. This, versus say anyone just walking in and living there. Who cares that someone drew lines on a piece of paper saying the house was yours. It's God's land, (or is it Gaia's). Either way, it aint yours and you have to share it... but you are still responsible for the upkeep, rent, heating and cooling, and whatnot. After all, you do have a piece of paper that says it's your house.

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

January 24th, 2014, 3:47 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: Illegal Immigration.

I work hard, make my money. Government comes in and takes say 30% or whatever my effective tax rate ends up being.

Takes some of that money and gives it to say two different bums living in Alabama. Two people I've never met living in a state I've never been to and have no plans to ever visit. Say bum #1 was born in Alabama and bum #2 was born in Mexico. Why is it OK to give my hard-earned money to the first bum, but not OK to give it to the second?

What I'm trying to say is that the problem most people have with illegal immigration isn't the immigration, it's the welfare state.

January 24th, 2014, 3:53 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9645Location: Dallas

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Disclaimer - I am a first generation immigrant via Ellis Island. I'm also married to a Hispanic woman from South Texas (born). I'm a Perm Resident, she is a citizen. Being a "gringo" with "familia" living in border towns, my eyes have been opened.

Immigration is a very complicated issue affected by many things that may seem unrelated at first. For example, NAFTA has had a rippling effect in Mexico and thus on illegal immigration. US farmers have higher productivity than their Mexican counterparts which should be offset by pricing, but throw US farm subsidies into the mix and the Mexican farmer is at a significant disadvantage in many cases (especially items like corn which are heavily subsidized).

While the issue is complicated, I personally don't think the solution has to be (and boy do our representatives like to complicate things). Why? It comes down to the motives behind those who are entering the country illegally. More on that in a second.

What jobs are these workers doing? You have to remember that in the US labor force less than 15%, probably closer to 10%, have at least a HS diploma. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are uneducated. How many folks that you went to HS with are working crops? Unskilled landscaping? Working as maids? etc. The immigrants we are talking about, this is exactly what they do. There is some real value in the services that they are providing.

So what is the simple solution? Not a fence, please. Did you ever hit a ball into a neighbors yard that had a fence around it? Even a child can overcome that obstacle.

Go back to the motivation. Most are coming here to find work, to find a better life for their family back home. They really don't want to leave their family in the first place, they just don't see a better alternative. The vast majority would love to come to the US to work and save enough to return home with the ability to make their lives better for their families.

So again, what is the simple solution? It isn't an immigration policy at all (and that is what we all focus on). It is simply a temporary work program. If you had an option for these illegal immigrants to enter our country on some sort of temporary work program/visa that allowed them to work here for a given amount of time, but then return to their home country, you wipe our 75-80% of the illegal immigration from Mexico.

Don't think that will work? Put yourself in their shoes and take a walk in them (across the border if you will). For example, wouldn't it be nice to be able to simply go back and see your spouse/kids once or twice a year? Without this option, I'm probably now wanting to illegally cross my entire family across the border multiplying the immigration issue. Now start imagining the other benefits for the current illegal immigrants (I don't have time to lay them all out). And I'm not even going to touch upon the benefits to the US as far as immigration tracking, taxes, etc.

Perfect solution, not at all but one doesn't exist. This is, however, a very simple idea based on motives, common sense and some basic independent thinking. Just don't expect your Coke/Pepsi elected officials to come up with it.

I work hard, make my money. Government comes in and takes say 30% or whatever my effective tax rate ends up being.

Takes some of that money and gives it to say two different bums living in Alabama. Two people I've never met living in a state I've never been to and have no plans to ever visit. Say bum #1 was born in Alabama and bum #2 was born in Mexico. Why is it OK to give my hard-earned money to the first bum, but not OK to give it to the second?

What I'm trying to say is that the problem most people have with illegal immigration isn't the immigration, it's the welfare state.

Nope, it's only one of the problems. I don't like people coming into my house uninvited. If they are invited, I expect them to willingly, joyfully live by the house rules. I also don't want strangers who can come and go in my house as they please. If they are committed to staying, I expect to see them working and honoring my house for the comforts it is providing.If we let these illegals in, do we let in more? Did we start another friends and family plan. Reagan did it once. Will we be doing it again?I don't like illegals taking any job in this country, even strawberry picking. If we can't hire strawberry pickers for the going rate, either raise the rate or don't pick strawberries.(Sigh.) There's more, but that's a good start.

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

January 24th, 2014, 4:13 pm

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1262

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Pablo wrote:

Disclaimer - I am a first generation immigrant via Ellis Island. I'm also married to a Hispanic woman from South Texas (born). I'm a Perm Resident, she is a citizen. Being a "gringo" with "familia" living in border towns, my eyes have been opened.

Immigration is a very complicated issue affected by many things that may seem unrelated at first. For example, NAFTA has had a rippling effect in Mexico and thus on illegal immigration. US farmers have higher productivity than their Mexican counterparts which should be offset by pricing, but throw US farm subsidies into the mix and the Mexican farmer is at a significant disadvantage in many cases (especially items like corn which are heavily subsidized).

While the issue is complicated, I personally don't think the solution has to be (and boy do our representatives like to complicate things). Why? It comes down to the motives behind those who are entering the country illegally. More on that in a second.

What jobs are these workers doing? You have to remember that in the US labor force less than 15%, probably closer to 10%, have at least a HS diploma. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are uneducated. How many folks that you went to HS with are working crops? Unskilled landscaping? Working as maids? etc. The immigrants we are talking about, this is exactly what they do. There is some real value in the services that they are providing.

So what is the simple solution? Not a fence, please. Did you ever hit a ball into a neighbors yard that had a fence around it? Even a child can overcome that obstacle.

Go back to the motivation. Most are coming here to find work, to find a better life for their family back home. They really don't want to leave their family in the first place, they just don't see a better alternative. The vast majority would love to come to the US to work and save enough to return home with the ability to make their lives better for their families.

So again, what is the simple solution? It isn't an immigration policy at all (and that is what we all focus on). It is simply a temporary work program. If you had an option for these illegal immigrants to enter our country on some sort of temporary work program/visa that allowed them to work here for a given amount of time, but then return to their home country, you wipe our 75-80% of the illegal immigration from Mexico.

Don't think that will work? Put yourself in their shoes and take a walk in them (across the border if you will). For example, wouldn't it be nice to be able to simply go back and see your spouse/kids once or twice a year? Without this option, I'm probably now wanting to illegally cross my entire family across the border multiplying the immigration issue. Now start imagining the other benefits for the current illegal immigrants (I don't have time to lay them all out). And I'm not even going to touch upon the benefits to the US as far as immigration tracking, taxes, etc.

Perfect solution, not at all but one doesn't exist. This is, however, a very simple idea based on motives, common sense and some basic independent thinking. Just don't expect your Coke/Pepsi elected officials to come up with it.

Let me think on this a bit, but I see a lot of positives in what you just wrote. The narrative is immigration. Maybe we can change the narrative.

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

January 24th, 2014, 4:15 pm

DJ-B

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: April 5th, 2007, 5:51 pmPosts: 2347

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Blueskies wrote:

I work hard, make my money. Government comes in and takes say 30% or whatever my effective tax rate ends up being.

Takes some of that money and gives it to say two different bums living in Alabama. Two people I've never met living in a state I've never been to and have no plans to ever visit. Say bum #1 was born in Alabama and bum #2 was born in Mexico. Why is it OK to give my hard-earned money to the first bum, but not OK to give it to the second?

What I'm trying to say is that the problem most people have with illegal immigration isn't the immigration, it's the welfare state.

2 Seperate Issues. The Welfare state issue, is a huge issue.

People Breaking our Laws to enter the country, going outside the existing protocol that allows others who do it the "right way" to come here, is a sperate huge issue (to me). Stop them both fine, but solving #1 doesnt fix #2 for me at all. Certainly saying "Aw Schucks, well, you're already here so have free education, and healthcare on the taxpayers dime while not paying taxes yourself" is certainly making matters worse, not better.

Also, TruckinMack, I suspect you have no experience running a strawberry farm, or for that matter, a restaurant. As a former GM, it is difficult or impossible to operate without Mexicans, even in the state of Michigan.