BABY FLAMES COLLECT GOALIES

The Flames organization continued to collect goaltenders at a torrid pace this past week. After signing Leland Irving on July 27, the Abbotsford Heat followed suit with a pair of signings. The baby Flames inked veteran netminder Barry Brust on August 8 and Danny Taylor on August 10.

The signings give the Flames quite a few goalies in their pro development system. Under professional agreements for 2012-13 are Miikka Kiprusoff, Henrik Karlsson, Leland Irving, Joni Ortio, Barry Brust and Danny Taylor. However, Ortio will be on loan to TPS Turku of SM-Liiga for next season, while both Karlsson and Irving would need to pass through waivers to play in the AHL.

The Abbotsford Heat begin play in early October.

BUTLER ON CBA TALKS

Chris Butler (Resolute/Wikimedia Commons CC BY-SA 3.0)

As the National Hockey League Players' Association prepares its rebuttal to the NHL owners' initial CBA proposal, the individual players have begun to weigh in via social media.

“CBA thoughts...The OWNERS design a business model that allowed the players to increase compensation by growing the game/increasing revenue”

“#theplayers have grown the game to the best/most exciting/most profitable it’s been, now the OWNERS want their money back. #hedgeyourbets.”

The NHLPA is expected to submit its proposal to the NHL on Tuesday.

IGINLA'S PUCK POSSESSION

The excellent Puck Stops Here blog over at Kuklas Korner has been looking at some advanced stats metrics. Lately they've taken a look at Jarome Iginla's puck possession numbers. The numbers are not pretty.

“This past season he had the tenth worst team and zone adjusted Corsi rating in the league. To put things simply, when Iginla was on the ice Calgary’s opponents dominated the game. They controlled the puck. This is particularly bad because he led the Flames in ice time among forwards, so there was a considerable amount of time the other team controlled the puck.”

They go on to detail how, surprise, Jarome Iginla is a one-dimensional player (that dimension being offense.) They also offer a rather sobering assessment of the present situation.

“Calgary lacks the depth to play him in a reduced role where he would likely be much more useful.”

Ryan Pike has covered the Calgary Flames since 2010. A Calgary native who writes for FlamesNation and The Hockey Writers, he's often at Flames games and practices, as well as spotted in the background of scrums and press conferences asking about Sven Baertschi.

Um, yeah, isn't "the need for Calgary to position itself such that Iginla can take on a supporting role" one of my traditional talking points, along with so many others (the-wolf and evertonfc to name a few)?

I guess this is where the marriage between the "seen him good" types and the analytical stats people can find common cause. Many of us have been saying that Iginla is past the point of being able to drive play (heck, I think Kent spent most of last season writing more or less that same point on so many game chat evenings). Having the numbers now to back it up only changes one thing, in my mind: the debate over the relative value of Iginla on the trade market.

If teams can now justifiably argue that they would be purchasing a 2nd line winger who needs to receive enormously sheltered minutes rather than a game-changing dynamic winger whose leadership and poise on the ice means that he can dictate the pace of the game, then the price for that player drops dramatically.

Here is the comparison that I imagine will have most Flames fans hating me, and so I apologize for it in advance. In 2007 most Oiler fans were absolutely certain that Ales Hemsky was one of the most dynamic and talented wingers in the NHL. Convinced. All he needed was a good center or someone who could play off of him, and he was still only in his early 20s. Circumstance brought Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins and now Yakupov into the picture. That ready comparison has now revealed to most fans that Hemsky makes an excellent second-line winger and complementary scoring threat.

It isn't too late for Iginla to alter his playing style, however it hasn't happened yet and one had best not hold out hope that it could be easily achieved this late in his career.

Iginla's accomplishments, in the context of his surrounding talent, speak volumes about his ability and skill. Unfortunately, his age and the overall direction of his game these past few seasons would indicate that the high regard for him amongst some of the fan base is biased.

As I've said before, I'd like to see Iginla remain and retire a Flame. I only hope that the fan base can appreciate and have patience for his decline and slow descent.

Iginla is a floating cherry picker who can't keep the puck out of his own zone - pretty sure this analysis has been done to death and we already know this fact. Or at least, anybody who has been paying attention knows it.

Re: Butler. Chris who? Why is he commenting on the CBA? Flames sent Stajan to deal with the talks, this is how useful he is. He sits there and pretends like he matters. It's something to do because he can't play hockey.

the captain should legally change his name to lglinov. iggy plays a defensive game more akin to pavel bure than hell pavel bure. the captain floats,cherry picks and is a rare site in his own zone. personally, its a sad commentary of the once feared power forward. and the ah shcuks we need a bounce back game presser comments have worn very thin, maybe he should start playing the true role of captain and lead by example not pass accomplishments.

1) Goalies are highly unpredictable, and the only certainty is that the Flames are going to need a new one within the next few years. I think playing the numbers game by having as many goalies as practical within the system is as good a policy as any. Especially if they are playing lots of minutes in the AHL (Taylor), KHL (Ramo), Finland (Ortio), hopefully NHL (Irving), or LNAH (Karlsson).

2) Butler's comments are valid. But I still have absolutely no sympathy. NHL salaries are too high, full stop. The owners are at fault, in a classic example of 'tragedy of the commons'. The solution is a new revenue sharing agreement that redefines how 'the common' is handled, as well as a lower salary cap. Chris Butler has already made more money at age 22 than the average person will make in their entire life. I don't begrudge him his money, but I'm not going to listen to him whine either.

3) Iginla's advanced stats are (in my eyes) mainly a coaching and management issue. The Flames have plenty of depth to give him more sheltered minutes if needed (ie Glencross-Backlund-Stempniak as a potential third line). And if they insist on playing him power vs power, then they should have gotten him one of this season's available centreman who can handle the minutes (ie Derek Roy, who went very cheaply this summer).

Not too much to say about Iginla. Old news, for sure. All I'll add is that the team has lost the opportunity to 'sell high' with him. That's what happens when nostalgia dictates things and an individual player is placed above the rest of the team. But things will be spun that he played his whole career with one team and the @$$-kissing MSM will be fully on board and the average idiot fan will stand and applaud and weep as his jersey is lifted to the rafters. When instead, we could've gotten a fortune for him a few short, missed-the-playoffs-anyways seasons ago. Hero worship - you gotta love it.

I will disagree with TheLastBigBear, however:

1) Calgary does not have the depth to shelter him. This has been harped on numerous times including an article just last week. Calgary has NO true first line players.

2) That's not Iginla's fault, true. But battling with every coach that comes through the door and refusing to adapt your game and at least try to come back deep and play defense is.

3) Derek Roy is not a first line player either.

Makes me wonder if the once unthinkable needs to be done. While I've advocated trading Iginla for about five years now (since his last 50 goal season), I've never thought that stripping him of the 'C' was a good idea. I'm starting to think otherwise.

Not too much to say about Iginla. Old news, for sure. All I'll add is that the team has lost the opportunity to 'sell high' with him. That's what happens when nostalgia dictates things and an individual player is placed above the rest of the team. But things will be spun that he played his whole career with one team and the @$$-kissing MSM will be fully on board and the average idiot fan will stand and applaud and weep as his jersey is lifted to the rafters. When instead, we could've gotten a fortune for him a few short, missed-the-playoffs-anyways seasons ago. Hero worship - you gotta love it.

I will disagree with TheLastBigBear, however:

1) Calgary does not have the depth to shelter him. This has been harped on numerous times including an article just last week. Calgary has NO true first line players.

2) That's not Iginla's fault, true. But battling with every coach that comes through the door and refusing to adapt your game and at least try to come back deep and play defense is.

3) Derek Roy is not a first line player either.

Makes me wonder if the once unthinkable needs to be done. While I've advocated trading Iginla for about five years now (since his last 50 goal season), I've never thought that stripping him of the 'C' was a good idea. I'm starting to think otherwise.

I've never thought he was a great captain. Conroy always fit that mould more for me. Iginla has always been tough to listen to - he never has anything interesting to say. I would have never been against trading him for a great return, though I can't claim to have had the foresight to have advocated it. But it still wouldn't surprise me to see him have a great season. If he gets motivated and decides he wants to play the game with passion, I do believe he still possesses the physical tools. The effect a kid like Baertschi will have is interesting. He definitely brings some excitement, hopefully it will rub off.

On Iggy - agree with everything thats been said. It's all been said before.

Re: CBA - the owners take on all the risk, half of which lose money hand over fist. The ones that do end up making some money deserve it - they took on the risk.

The players make enough money. So do SOME of the owners, but the owners are the ones that have forked out millions/billions to take on that amount of risk. Never had much sympathy for players in these negotiations. Or unions in general for that matter, but that's a point for another day.

The advanced stats on Iggy just prove what we have known for years. He is not a puck-possession forward. He needs sheltered minutes, just like most 35 year old wingers. If they can somehow find a way to bury Glenx - Backs - Stemps to a varying degree of success, then I expect Iggy to have a much improved season next year (if there is one)

If The owners let another lockout happen it is completely ridiculous. Have they not learnt their lesson from 8 years ago? The game is making more profits than ever, fan interest in the States is picking up, so why on earth would you bring all that momentum to a complete halt? If the owners and Bettman had any brains whatsoever this deal will get done before the season starts. Not holding my breath.

Iginla put up 86 points and 43 goals the next year after missing the playoffs. He was the best right winger in the NHL. Why trade him? I highly doubt he would have waived his NMC regardless. You forget, players do not have to move if they dont want to, if they have an NMC, and at that point, there would have been no reason for Iginla to leave.

Well you never know, maybe this will increase Stajans trade value.:) :)

No earth shattering news on Iggy's numbers, & it wont be anything earth shattering news to other teams, so I disagree with you Rex about Iggys diminished value any further. It was already diminished. Iggy would be a huge piece to a contender, who lets face it, would be the only way Iggy would accept a trade to. His biggest comparison from a value & expectance of production would be Selanne bar none. There are some teams out there that would pay a huge price in youth & picks to acquire their own younger version of a Selanne which Iggy is. Selanne didnt sign in Winnipeg for "nostalgic" reasons, he signed with a team that he knows have a place for a role he does best & plays his best at in his twi light years. I deeply regret that Calgary cant be that place for Iggy. Flames cannot afford to pay him Doan numbers on a new contract but we know when the time comes, that will be the yard stick.

I don't understand the accolades Iginla gets. He has played 16 seasons, and scored 1073 points. That's an average of 67 points a year. Hardly hall of fame numbers. His team has missed the playoffs 11 of those seasons, and they lost in the first round 4 times. So, he's made it past the first round once in 16 years.
How many times have the Flames brought in someone to centre his line, saying he needs support, only to consider that player a disappointment? Maybe Jerome needs to adapt to his linemates sometime. I don't get the attention this guy gets.

The advanced stats on Iggy just prove what we have known for years. He is not a puck-possession forward. He needs sheltered minutes, just like most 35 year old wingers. If they can somehow find a way to bury Glenx - Backs - Stemps to a varying degree of success, then I expect Iggy to have a much improved season next year (if there is one)

If The owners let another lockout happen it is completely ridiculous. Have they not learnt their lesson from 8 years ago? The game is making more profits than ever, fan interest in the States is picking up, so why on earth would you bring all that momentum to a complete halt? If the owners and Bettman had any brains whatsoever this deal will get done before the season starts. Not holding my breath.

Because the rich owners won't share with the poor owners, it's that simple. Sports franchises are not like any other business models.

Iginla put up 86 points and 43 goals the next year after missing the playoffs. He was the best right winger in the NHL. Why trade him? I highly doubt he would have waived his NMC regardless. You forget, players do not have to move if they dont want to, if they have an NMC, and at that point, there would have been no reason for Iginla to leave.

All the more reason he should've been moved. Same reason I wanted him moved after he scored his last 50. Why? Because it wasn't hard to see the team was not good enough to ever go far. And that the time to build around Iginla has passed.

I'm always confused by this. Can't trade him then because he's too good, can't trade him now because he's not good enough. Which is it?

This is why players have to be viewed as cold, hard assets by the team.

As for NMC. Plenty of examples abound of players who waive and very few of those who don't. Once the team approaches a player and tells them they're not wanted most players don't argue.

I will give you the fact that Iginla could've greatly complicated matters for the Flames by only agreeing to go to 2 or 3 teams.

Ugh, drunk cynical posting after watching the Canadian juniors get the boots put to them is never a good idea.

@dt

The accolades are because Iginla has won pretty much everything but the SC. 2 Memorial Cups, 2 Olympic gold medals, the Art Ross and Maurice Richard trophies (Richard x2!), and the Lester B Pearson Trophy; he's also been an All-Star (rookie and veteran) 15 or 16 times.

Times they are a-changing. No one will ever hit Gretzky's 200 points or whatever in a season, I don't think it's possible with the way the rules are set up.

Some comments;
1. No to Shane Doan. Great guy but if you think Iggy takes shifts off, just watch Doan for awhile. The guy coasts and only puts up 20 goals.
2. Yes, we should trade Iggy. It is beyond reason that we don't. He would be such a coup for a contender too. Play him with Crosby and Malkin in a situation where he doesn't have to be the main cog and he would still light it up. So, he is worth a very good return to a contender.
3. News from the USA junior development camp is very good for the Flames. Gaudreau looks like a lock for the 1st line, Sieloff was a beast at camp and looks good to make it and the big goalie was very good and is not out of the mix for backup especially if he starts strong this season. Perhaps our drafting is turning around and the trade this draft may turn out ok. Wouldn't that be nice?

how can any so called knowledgable fan back iggy as a captain? he doesn't practise with the team, won't back check,won't buy into the revolving door of coaches' game plans and laughs and smiles in defeat. if thats your leader,your sucess will be limited to also ran. funny iggy and butter didn't mess. iggy is here brent is kickin stones.

Calm down guys no need to go after each other. Its opinion, no need to make it personal.

I'm not huge on the whole trade iggy thing. Just dont know how many teams traded their star player for picks & prospects and it actually worked. So while picks & prospects are sexy, lets be realistic about making the team better. Thats my take.

Calm down guys no need to go after each other. Its opinion, no need to make it personal.

I'm not huge on the whole trade iggy thing. Just dont know how many teams traded their star player for picks & prospects and it actually worked. So while picks & prospects are sexy, lets be realistic about making the team better. Thats my take.

Trading a star for picks and prospects type of a move is how we got Iggy in the first place. Also how we got Regehr.

I don't understand the accolades Iginla gets. He has played 16 seasons, and scored 1073 points. That's an average of 67 points a year. Hardly hall of fame numbers. His team has missed the playoffs 11 of those seasons, and they lost in the first round 4 times. So, he's made it past the first round once in 16 years.
How many times have the Flames brought in someone to centre his line, saying he needs support, only to consider that player a disappointment? Maybe Jerome needs to adapt to his linemates sometime. I don't get the attention this guy gets.

*Jarome *15 seasons *72 points per season (not taking into account the flawed methodology of using seasonal point totals rather than scoring pace)

Also, he's considered a lock for the Hall, so your comment is just straight-up ridiculous.

Calm down guys no need to go after each other. Its opinion, no need to make it personal.

I'm not huge on the whole trade iggy thing. Just dont know how many teams traded their star player for picks & prospects and it actually worked. So while picks & prospects are sexy, lets be realistic about making the team better. Thats my take.

Generally I would agree with you, such as the Rick Nash trade. If your giving away the best player more often then not you are going to lose the trade. However as clearly as it can be said Iginla is NOT a star player. He's a big name. Simple. If we were to get an early first round pick and a second line player, I'd trade Iggy for it. He doesn't contribute in a ton of areas. He can score goals but only when he isn't bleeding them on our side.

Generally I would agree with you, such as the Rick Nash trade. If your giving away the best player more often then not you are going to lose the trade. However as clearly as it can be said Iginla is NOT a star player. He's a big name. Simple. If we were to get an early first round pick and a second line player, I'd trade Iggy for it. He doesn't contribute in a ton of areas. He can score goals but only when he isn't bleeding them on our side.

You will get more than that for Iggy. Trading a star has paid off more often than people realize. At least you have a chance to get better by doing that. We won't by holding on to him and drafting 10th as opposed to 1-4 if we stink as well. I believe that Iginla was acquired for Niewendyk who was the draft choice we got for Nilson. Nilson still holds the Flame record for points in a season. What about Barry Pederson for Cam Neeley and a 1st(Glen Wesley)? I say we trade him and let the management win us a trade.

You will get more than that for Iggy. Trading a star has paid off more often than people realize. At least you have a chance to get better by doing that. We won't by holding on to him and drafting 10th as opposed to 1-4 if we stink as well. I believe that Iginla was acquired for Niewendyk who was the draft choice we got for Nilson. Nilson still holds the Flame record for points in a season. What about Barry Pederson for Cam Neeley and a 1st(Glen Wesley)? I say we trade him and let the management win us a trade.

I don't get the thinking that Iginla is horrible, we've got to trade him, then turn around and say we'll drop 10 places without him. If he's that good that he can move you that far in the standings, by all means hang on to him. I personally think we finish higher without him than with him. Because we lose every shift he's on the ice.

I don't get the thinking that Iginla is horrible, we've got to trade him, then turn around and say we'll drop 10 places without him. If he's that good that he can move you that far in the standings, by all means hang on to him. I personally think we finish higher without him than with him. Because we lose every shift he's on the ice.

I don't think we would drop 10 spots just without him but by trading him, we would start more of a drastic rebuild that would probably drop us a few more spots.

If you think Jarome Iginla is overrated your hockey knowledge should seriously be put into question. Vancouver Canucks troll me thinks. For 15 years Iginla has averaged 72 Points, he also has scored 28 goals or more 13 years and over that time has been the most consistent scorer in the world the best of this past decade. Jarome Iginla is a first ballot Hall of Famer, he just turned 35 and has at least 4 decent seasons in him. Realistically he could finish in the Top 20 of all time points, if he played in another era his totals would have even been higher.

Think the Flames should see how the start of the season goes, if they start off strong keep Iggy if not look for a trade before the All-Star break so we are not rushed into trading him like Columbus.

Think he deserves a Top Prospect, a Young Top Six Forward and a First Rounder. Honestly think he deserves a lot more than Nash even despite his age. Nash is a floater who has had the benifit of playing teams on their off nights because no one has shown up to play Columbus, Olli Jokenin Stat inflation on Florida. Also not a big game player, would not be suprised if he has a hard time playing in the Atlantic this season, teams show up to play in MSG. They didn't at Nationwide.

If you think Jarome Iginla is overrated your hockey knowledge should seriously be put into question. Vancouver Canucks troll me thinks. For 15 years Iginla has averaged 72 Points, he also has scored 28 goals or more 13 years and over that time has been the most consistent scorer in the world the best of this past decade. Jarome Iginla is a first ballot Hall of Famer, he just turned 35 and has at least 4 decent seasons in him. Realistically he could finish in the Top 20 of all time points, if he played in another era his totals would have even been higher.

Think the Flames should see how the start of the season goes, if they start off strong keep Iggy if not look for a trade before the All-Star break so we are not rushed into trading him like Columbus.

Think he deserves a Top Prospect, a Young Top Six Forward and a First Rounder. Honestly think he deserves a lot more than Nash even despite his age. Nash is a floater who has had the benifit of playing teams on their off nights because no one has shown up to play Columbus, Olli Jokenin Stat inflation on Florida. Also not a big game player, would not be suprised if he has a hard time playing in the Atlantic this season, teams show up to play in MSG. They didn't at Nationwide.

Well said & totally agree. Also why I dont think his value is any more or any less trading him now versus later at the TDL. The only risk to this ointment is if there is a lockout.

Interesting comparision Teemu Selanne had 122 less points than Iginla does at the same age. The past seven years since then Teemu has averaged 65 points (455 Total) and won a Stanley Cup. With current training programs of NHLers including Iginla who usually shows up to camp in better shape than anyone, he has a lot more hockey left than people are giving him credit. If Iginla puts up even relatively similar numbers to Selanne will finish in the Top 15 all time.... Iginla overrated... Get out of town.

Whatever team Iggy finishes out his career with you can call me fan. Wish we would have given him more to work with.

The difference in the comparisons of Iggy to Teemu is that the Ducks can play Teemu in scenarios that are conducive to his age and talents. The Flames haven't had this luxury with Iggy for a long time and are thus forced to play him as a top line option and in a PvP situation; where he gets his head kicked in.

If the Flames could play Iggy in sheltered offensive situations then I'm sure there would not be a desire to trade him by anyone.

The idea of trading Iginla is to gain quantity because they will never re-coup the quality that he once meant to this team; and he's just not that guy anymore. That's not his fault, it's just a fact.

People aren't blowing hot air when they have complained that the Flames need to bring in the right people to play with Jarome, the problem is, they just don't have those avenues available to them.

He can be that kind of asset to some team, but it's just so unlikely here without the cast to support him, that it's a more viable option for the Flames to deal him and re-build or re-tool or re-whatever with a different type of foundation.

P.S... Let's keep this civil guys. We're all Flames fans and entitled to our own opinions. Save the name-calling for the trolls.

"I'm always confused by this. Can't trade him then because he's too good, can't trade him now because he's not good enough. Which is it?"

Speaking purely logically, those two statements aren't in contradiction. Both could be valid reasons not to trade him.

I'm just saying that there's a segment out there who will always argue that the time is never right to trade him and one day, several years from now, some sports writer will write that column. How the team should've traded Iginla, but it just never seemed like the right time. Wasn't right this summer, last deadline, the summer before, 1 year ago, 2 years ago, 6 years ago.

I'm just saying that there's a segment out there who will always argue that the time is never right to trade him and one day, several years from now, some sports writer will write that column. How the team should've traded Iginla, but it just never seemed like the right time. Wasn't right this summer, last deadline, the summer before, 1 year ago, 2 years ago, 6 years ago.

The refusal to move on from the Iginla era will prove disastrous IMO.

I'll agree with that reasoning. All except the last statement. The disaster was pretty much Darryl's drafting. Much as I love the guy, I now have to admit, he was no GM. And I still think we can recover, and have begun to. And I agree it would be easier by trading Iginla, but I don't think we're sunk if we don't.

What in the world is your idea of a top six forward if Iginla is barely one.... He could easily score 25+G 35+A for 5-7 years. Lots of teams would kill for that.

One-dimensional player... he was -10 on a team that was -24. Not to mention his Power Play totals don't count towards a +.

I am sorry I am not as sold on these "advanced stats metrics" or "OZC" or "Corsi" or whatever as everyone else, to prove everything about hockey. Plan and simple hockey isn't baseball. Yes these stats are interesting but they are nothing more than that. For every argument of why they are accurate five against can be said, sorry I don't base my entire arguments on some figure that NHL teams don't even care anything about.

What in the world is your idea of a top six forward if Iginla is barely one.... He could easily score 25+G 35+A for 5-7 years. Lots of teams would kill for that.

One-dimensional player... he was -10 on a team that was -24. Not to mention his Power Play totals don't count towards a +.

I am sorry I am not as sold on these "advanced stats metrics" or "OZC" or "Corsi" or whatever as everyone else, to prove everything about hockey. Plan and simple hockey isn't baseball. Yes these stats are interesting but they are nothing more than that. For every argument of why they are accurate five against can be said, sorry I don't base my entire arguments on some figure that NHL teams don't even care anything about.

I will add to that. Why would a team like the Penguins give so much up for him?
1. They are a cup contender and he would make them better.
2. He is a skilled player who is also a feared player. It is easy for a player like Ott to go after a Malkin when there is no deterrent on the ice but not so easy when you have to pay up immediately.
3. In Calgary, he has to be the go to guy and faces constant close coverage and agitation. As a complementary player, he becomes more dangerous and would probably score much more than he has been scoring here. Imagine him with more time and space? He could be lethal for the right team.