Quite obviously, I did try to google it and couldn't find anything which seemed very relevant - just like yourself. I doubt very much that Maniac, who wrote the lyrics, would mentioned anything from the Qur'an ar the arabic tradition, but even if he did, would he really fail to spell the ord correctly? I have no idea, although to me it doesn't seem likely. The first link doesn't require a comment at all, I guess.

Your first post isn't very clear about what exactly you had tried before posting. Based on "Any clues" looks like the background could've been you read the lyrics and were like "OH A WORD I DON'T KNOW, I'LL GO MAKE A THREAD IN MA". And, well... Did you read the lyrics? That very song starts with this:

Quote:

They speak...In the garden of the prophetDivine madness...The order of the cosmic immoral

It could easily be Quran. And track 3 is titled "Fall of Seraphs". Seems more related to something else, but I guess Seraphim exist in Islam too?

It could easily be Quran. And track 3 is titled "Fall of Seraphs". Seems more related to something else, but I guess Seraphim exist in Islam too?

They have been debated by Muslim scholars,some agree they (the Seraphim) exist, some do not. As a Muslim, I think they do exist, though in the Qur'an they are not told explicitly.But, this just comes from my remembrance, it might not help very much, so you might want to search "Seraphim in Islam" in Google.

Your first post isn't very clear about what exactly you had tried before posting. Based on "Any clues" looks like the background could've been you read the lyrics and were like "OH A WORD I DON'T KNOW, I'LL GO MAKE A THREAD IN MA". And, well... Did you read the lyrics? That very song starts with this:

Quote:

They speak...In the garden of the prophetDivine madness...The order of the cosmic immoral

It could easily be Quran. And track 3 is titled "Fall of Seraphs". Seems more related to something else, but I guess Seraphim exist in Islam too?

Hahah, yeah, I suppose you're right - although I really try to avoid doing things like that. It's a waste of time for me and whoever reads such a post. Anyway the word itself sound arabic indeed, so perhaps it has to do with the arabic mythology after all. But still for me it doesn't add up since I believe all of the members (maybe, just maybe excluding Blasphemer and marking him as "undecided") are racist homophobes that glorify the teutonic heritage and all that, therefore I don't see why should they ever make any references to anoher culture's myths or tradition.

It could easily be Quran. And track 3 is titled "Fall of Seraphs". Seems more related to something else, but I guess Seraphim exist in Islam too?

They have been debated by Muslim scholars,some agree they (the Seraphim) exist, some do not. As a Muslim, I think they do exist, though in the Qur'an they are not told explicitly.But, this just comes from my remembrance, it might not help very much, so you might want to search "Seraphim in Islam" in Google.

Well, thanks for the input. In the Bible there is scarcely anything on Seraphs as well, but many mythical beings and legends, whether adopted form other religious precepts or functioning in judeo-christianity from it's inception are only present in the oral and written tradition but not in the Bible itself. There's a huge amount of disinformation on the subject as hardly anyone can boast of reading the Bible from title page to colophon, and there are such myriads of colourful folklore surrounding any old subject, which is especially true regarding old religions - judeo-christianity in particular, since it's been by far the most plagiarising religion that ever existed.

Did you really try and search for any rational meaning to Wolf's Lair Abyss's lyrics? Maniac probably used the automatic writing process. I mean, the lyrics to "Symbols of Bloodswords" don't make any sense either. How would you explain them?

Furthermore, he dedicated "Ancient Skin" to "the greatest hero of history" (on Mediolanum Capta Est). Do you have any slight idea? Qisling, Hitler?

Did you really try and search for any rational meaning to Wolf's Lair Abyss's lyrics? Maniac probably used the automatic writing process. I mean, the lyrics to "Symbols of Bloodswords" don't make any sense either. How would you explain them?

I did, actually. It's interesting you should mention the automatic writing method - I delved into the subject some time ago and pretty much got grabbed by the very idea. So I can say that as far as my knowledge of the matter goes, automatic writing doesn't necessarily exclude rational meaning. For example, taking the at-the-time interests of Maniac, EP's title and the rest of the tracks (perhaps especially the more obvious text appearing in the intro) as well as the ideological (but not aesthetical) follow-up which was the Grand Declaration of War LP, you can figure out most of the Symbols of Bloodsword lyrics (at least I tried), here are my thoughts:

All the stars in the north are dead now- the albums title hints at the Nazi era being the subject and Hitlers person (and/or the 3rd Reich leadership circle) in particular.All the morals of wasted human...debris- Nazis had had misused Nietzsche philosophy to suit their ideological needs, and Nietzsche actively advocated fall of morals, which he rendered not serving any useful purpose.Walk with me into the nightDo not remove the cobwebsOf war clinging to your faceThey will tell of pains unknown- so you have the poetic subject of darkness or night made synonymous with war and, as a result, suffering which is often impossible to imagine and prepare oneself for before an extreme situation actually takes place.All the stars in the north are dead nowAll the morals of wasted human debrisTorn to pieces - handcrafted deleriumOne war remains - war of everything- you already had Holocaust of the jewish race and a beginning of a nuclear war - next step is Total War as characterized by Hitler and Goebbels, which they intended to commence but failed due to lack of funds and generally losing the war just two years after the idea was born.Tanto magis infra se oeciditQuanto magis so contra gloriamSui conditoris erexit- which means:"the more he fell downthe more he arose against the gloryof his originator"to me is not quite clear, although I suspect it might have to do with Satan and the topic of rebelling agains dogmatic thinking; when you decide to question certain truths and values, in eyes of some you will "fall down" but as an individual you will actually start creating you own set of values and your own hierarchy of beliefs (as Nietzsches ubermensch), even if initially by means of elimination, you will still illuminate (to reference another one of Mayhem's songs).

KFD wrote:

Furthermore, he dedicated "Ancient Skin" to "the greatest hero of history" (on Mediolanum Capta Est). Do you have any slight idea? Qisling, Hitler?

Just looking at the EPs title makes me guess it's Adolf Hitler. Even though Qisling was Norwegian, he was still just one-tenth the size, so to speak, and far from an originator of the ideology Hitler tried to showcase (not saying he invented it, although he did have his own input, surely).

About that Latin phrase meaning the more he fell down, the more he arose against the glory of his own creator, it is quite clear to me. I will propose 2 interpretations: 1. Man rebels against God, who created him as His image. The more man humiliates and harms himself, the more he humiliates and harms God, through His image.2. See also the Freudian/Oedipian scheme of 'murdering the father'. The idea is the same as above: a son who takes revenge on his father through self-lowering, because the son's behaviour indirectly harms the father's reputation.

I'll get back to the other lyrics (this EP's lyrics are - though enigmatic and confuse - quite good in fact) later.

PS: Yes, Wolf's Lair is obviously a translation of Wolfsschanze (one of the Führer's secret bases).

It's really funny to see that the band never had any trouble with politically correct forces, in spite of all those references.

Hahah, yeah, I suppose you're right - although I really try to avoid doing things like that. It's a waste of time for me and whoever reads such a post. Anyway the word itself sound arabic indeed, so perhaps it has to do with the arabic mythology after all. But still for me it doesn't add up since I believe all of the members (maybe, just maybe excluding Blasphemer and marking him as "undecided") are racist homophobes that glorify the teutonic heritage and all that, therefore I don't see why should they ever make any references to anoher culture's myths or tradition.

Well Maniac is married to Japanese girl and Makes out with Kvarforth all the time, so I guess that really makes him a racist homophobe! Another culture, because Satan isn't another cultures myth? Come on, you can't be serious.

About that Latin phrase meaning the more he fell down, the more he arose against the glory of his own creator, it is quite clear to me. I will propose 2 interpretations: 1. Man rebels against God, who created him as His image. The more man humiliates and harms himself, the more he humiliates and harms God, through His image.2. See also the Freudian/Oedipian scheme of 'murdering the father'. The idea is the same as above: a son who takes revenge on his father through self-lowering, because the son's behaviour indirectly harms the father's reputation.

I'll get back to the other lyrics (this EP's lyrics are - though enigmatic and confuse - quite good in fact) later.

PS: Yes, Wolf's Lair is obviously a translation of Wolfsschanze (one of the Führer's secret bases).

It's really funny to see that the band never had any trouble with politically correct forces, in spite of all those references.

I've never seen the image with Quisling - well, that definitely makes the connection much more obvious, although still one may argue that Quisling wouldn't happen if it wasn't for Hitler (as well as Nasjonal Samling - perhaps they would both exist and function to some extent, but I doubt that they would be much more than the Blackshirts in pre-WWII Britain). So it is possible that the EP pays tribute to the national-socialist movement as a whole, taking some of the symbols (like the Nasjonal Samling logo) and some of the names (like Wolf's Lair) to hint at a more general idea. Just a thought.

And Mayhem was so extreme in the past and was generally viewed (because I don't feel like it still is) as such by any random spectators that adding Nazi sympathies to it would change all that much. Or maybe it would - anyway like raumr already pointed out they've been quite subtle about it and if you're not really into the subject you won't get that they actually mean it.

Oh and BTW your interpretation of the latin part sounds quite to-the-point, at least to me .

Last edited by mirageasylum on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hahah, yeah, I suppose you're right - although I really try to avoid doing things like that. It's a waste of time for me and whoever reads such a post. Anyway the word itself sound arabic indeed, so perhaps it has to do with the arabic mythology after all. But still for me it doesn't add up since I believe all of the members (maybe, just maybe excluding Blasphemer and marking him as "undecided") are racist homophobes that glorify the teutonic heritage and all that, therefore I don't see why should they ever make any references to anoher culture's myths or tradition.

Well Maniac is married to Japanese girl and Makes out with Kvarforth all the time, so I guess that really makes him a racist homophobe! Another culture, because Satan isn't another cultures myth? Come on, you can't be serious.

Yes he is, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's not a racist. Like, Hitler was allied with Japan during WWII, furthermore there are tons of, how should I put this... inconsistent racist that actually accept the Japanese into the Master Race circle. Additionally we've no idea about his approach towards women - racial hygiene or eugenics and racism are not necessarily the same thing. Not for everyone at least.

And speak of the Devil... Satan, rather, in black metal is more often than not a metaphorical figure, he functions only as a catalyst of a larger idea, not as a object of worship. Let me quote Frost on this one:

"I entered Euronymous' shop in Oslo; a shop called Helvete or Hell in English. It was all black with a kind of very extreme people that you would never see in the streets back then. The atmosphere in there was very special. I still consider it to be very special. There and then wearing my upside down cross, my dark clothes, my leather jacket, and all that, I just realized that this is for me. I had never really understood anything before, but this was my path - my kind of style, and it has been ever since. I would say that from there on, I started digging into things. It was that kind of kick in the back that made me start examining life instead of just scraping the surface. That is what Satanism is to me. It is that kick in the back that pushes ne into realizing a bigger potential."

So, you see, I never heard anyone speak about Djiins this way, haha...

It's really funny to see that the band never had any trouble with politically correct forces, in spite of all those references.

I guess they were more subtle about it. Compare them to Taake, when Hoest went on stage with a swastika on his chest.

I'm pretty sure Dead had no intention of tying NS themes in his lyrics and the new Mayhem certainly doesn't have any NS shit in them. I think it's safe to assume that the NS themes, what little there ways, stayed with Maniac. I mean check this image of him (kinda gory): http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m278 ... Maniac.jpg

Musically, Wolf's Lair Abyss is a pretty mediocre EP anyway.

_________________

KrigareTjovane wrote:

BenjaminC81 wrote:

I've got quite an extensive lesbian vampire movie collection at home

I've decided this is the only kind of collection in the world that matters.

The point wasn't what some racists views are, but if he could label Maniac a racist with so little to go on.

Why would I do that?.... He thought it was weird that they used an entity from another culture. And then I pointed out that Satan is also from another culture. Read what we are talking about before you voice your opinion.

I don't mind NS in art, as long as it is used intelligently, the same goes for everything. Mayhem obviously does not have a political agenda, and the sparse NS elements are used as part of the image.Same thing if Maniac referenced Arabic folklore; who cares? So long as it is used to portray whatever he is trying to tell us, I don't think we should put restrictions on what symbolism he can or cannot use.

Had they had songs with titles such as "Aryan Nuklear Holocaust Panzer Krieg....", and doing Hitler salutes on stage, then it would have been stupid.

The point wasn't what some racists views are, but if he could label Maniac a racist with so little to go on.

Why would I do that?.... He thought it was weird that they used an entity from another culture. And then I pointed out that Satan is also from another culture. Read what we are talking about before you voice your opinion.

I wasn't saying that the man is racist. I was just defending the fact that someone can be racist and still do things that conflict with their ideologies.

And so what if Satan is Abrahamic in nature? Satan has come to encompass so much more than the original biblical figure did. It has evolved to the point that many references to Satan aren't Abrahamic or biblical in nature, but instead are more existential and philosophical in scope.

I understand that you're defending your points and making arguments, but I would sincerely appreciate it if you would be more civil in your responses by not insinuating that I'm an idiot who can't follow a simple conversation. Albeit you aren't name-calling... but it doesn't help the conversation either way.

Well no, but you have no proof he is one either. You are just throwing labels around and you didn't even comment on him making out with Kvarforth.

Doesn't matter, Satan still comes from another culture, form an abrahamic religion. So basically all your points are useless.

I'm not throwing any labels, just using the exact same ones as Maniac used to portaray his artistic self during a certain period in his life. You may be right that choosing to use the Nazi symbolism in your art is one thing and following national-socialist principles (as vague at that may be at times) is another, although it seems to me that he dwelled in the subject rather extensivery for someone who would later use it only for shock value or perhaps just to attract the NSBM audience, which was a growing phenomenon at that time (mainly due to being promoted by Varg Vikernes, who then later denounced NS, and e.g. Darkthrone using phrases such as "True Aryan Black Metal" on their albums). Of course I chose not to comment on that - firstly because I don't believe making out for laughs says anything about your views and secondly due to the fact that I see your posts lacking the respect necessary for conucting a normal healthy conversation - if my points are so utterly useless, why reply to them in the first place.

TheRealThing already answered you as far as Satan goes and did it very well, so I don't feel like there's anything to add to that.

I don't mind NS in art, as long as it is used intelligently, the same goes for everything. Mayhem obviously does not have a political agenda, and the sparse NS elements are used as part of the image.Same thing if Maniac referenced Arabic folklore; who cares? So long as it is used to portray whatever he is trying to tell us, I don't think we should put restrictions on what symbolism he can or cannot use.

Had they had songs with titles such as "Aryan Nuklear Holocaust Panzer Krieg....", and doing Hitler salutes on stage, then it would have been stupid.

I never said he can't use arabic or any foreign-inspired stuff if it suits him. I just stated that I'd be suprised if he actually went for it. From what I know he seemed to be more into the subject of Total War and NS at that time. But nevermind, cause all I wanted to do is to figure that one word out, and so far I didn't come near that, did I?

The point wasn't what some racists views are, but if he could label Maniac a racist with so little to go on.

Why would I do that?.... He thought it was weird that they used an entity from another culture. And then I pointed out that Satan is also from another culture. Read what we are talking about before you voice your opinion.

I wasn't saying that the man is racist. I was just defending the fact that someone can be racist and still do things that conflict with their ideologies.

And so what if Satan is Abrahamic in nature? Satan has come to encompass so much more than the original biblical figure did. It has evolved to the point that many references to Satan aren't Abrahamic or biblical in nature, but instead are more existential and philosophical in scope.

I understand that you're defending your points and making arguments, but I would sincerely appreciate it if you would be more civil in your responses by not insinuating that I'm an idiot who can't follow a simple conversation. Albeit you aren't name-calling... but it doesn't help the conversation either way.

I didn't say you were calling him a racist, the other guy was. You came along and commented on my response to him, that doesn't mean I claim that you said it. Of course, but that was not the point. I weren't talking about how Racists view the world. I was saying that he can't be sure that Maniac is a racist just because Mayhem used that symbolism. Something I find weird is that plenty other bands use the same symbolism to the same extent or even more. So if Maniac is a racist because of Mayhem's use of the modified Nasjonal Samling symbol, Then Lemmy Kilmister, Jeff Hanneman, Entombed, Marduk and Turbonegro are also racists. See the point now?

That was not the issue. The point I was telling the other guy is that Satan is also of a different CULTURE. He thought it was weird that they used a middle-eastern term considering he is a "racist homophobe". you see? I wasn't uncivil. you were, saying I choose to ignore points that had nothing to do with what I was originally saying. I was not Insinuating you were an idiot, but you didn't respond to what I was talking about.

I see the guy is responding above, but I hope the whole thing will be resolved with this post.

I'm pretty sure Dead had no intention of tying NS themes in his lyrics and the new Mayhem certainly doesn't have any NS shit in them. I think it's safe to assume that the NS themes, what little there ways, stayed with Maniac. I mean check this image of him (kinda gory): http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m278 ... Maniac.jpg

Therefore posing in front of Third Reich Battle flag (Necrobutcher) might be NS, but not necessarily WS or racism in it's pure encyclopedic form, I guess. As well as making disrespectful comments about other races like blacks and jews (Hellhammer, Attila Csihar) might be racist but not necessarily NS and not directly WS. Or citing mainly your own nation's artists as the biggest influence and referencing Ôðalism and extensively playing with war-themed material, as well as NS symbolism (which quite directly conveys ideology) (Maniac) could be perhaps WS and NS and maybe racist at the same time. He pulls it off, I'd say. But other that any of aforementioned artists personal beliefs being their own private matter not for any stranger to determine, surely, I might add that one's views change (or perhaps evolve) throughout hers/his life and these artist are no exception to that rule.

Since we're going incontrolably off-topic I might as well put it out there... :)

But just to get your facts straight I do not believe racism to be a racional, logical and positive in any way approach to life or perhaps the matter of society and it's desired shape. Therefore my wishing for anyone to be a racist would be absolutelly pointless. What I did was merely considered some facts about some musicians in relation to some ideologies. What I do believe is my own business and certainly not for you to determine.