Feminism is shooting itself in the foot

… as I listen and watch to our modern society “explain” that there is no difference between Men and women, I need only look to nature for some clues … in this case, at a park as we drove across the country, a Male duck (or goose) steps up to defend his lady … she eats away, seemingly unaware of the danger as “her man” is protecting her…

Below is a guest article written by Frank, his comments just below explain how he came to find this website. I am posting it as it was written and I’ll save my analysis for the comments section. I hope you enjoy the read.

Scott,

I stumbled upon your blog after watching the TV show 90 Day Fiancée and looking for more info on the (very interesting) topic. One things let to another, and I spent the next few hours just reading blog entry after blog entry. It’s really a fascinating world you occupy.

One topic that comes up with regularity that seems to be misunderstood is feminism. I see from the comments that women and men’s minds are often ships passing in the night on this topic.

So, I’m offering up a guest blog entry, below, on this topic, if you can use it.

Frank

Feminism Is Shooting Itself In The Foot

The ideal woman, according to this blog, is a woman who prioritizes her husband and family above other concerns – career, friends, other aspirations. The ideal woman makes herself presentable, maintains an orderly house, and occupies a distinctly feminine role in the house.

Whenever the topic of the ideal woman comes up, there is a predictable back-and-forth in the comments section.

… beautiful and fashionable Woman in Central Russia, 2014…

Men commenters acerbically attack the idea of the modern feminist, who puts her career and personal aspirations first, only to recognize later in life that she wants a family, by which time it’s too late and she becomes embittered at the lack of quality men out there and how the deck of life is stacked against professional women. There are variations in the comments, of course, but they generally follow a similar through line.

And women commenters will lament the fact that they are being attacked for simply wanting what men have always had – access to career achievements and personal rewards – and that efforts to pigeonhole women into domestic servitude are regressive and should be shamed.

It shouldn’t be necessary to have a personal stake in a social phenomenon to comment on it, but in full disclosure, I am a married man with 2 kids. My wife is full-time working professional with a graduate degree, an Ivy League education, and she is every bit my equal.

This does not, however, mean that I advocate for the stereotypical feminist party line. Feminists will routinely pay lip service to the notion that they advocate for female choice – that women should have a right to self-determination, to decide for themselves whether they want to be housewives or career women or something in between. I say “lip service” because the right to self-determination is most commonly said with a wave of the hand, an obligatory statement that must be offered up in order to make the real statement feminists want to make, which is that women who elect a domestic role are the feminist version of an Uncle Tom, a sellout who makes the efforts of feminists fighting for career equality and such more difficult.

Feminists do themselves a disservice when they do this. There is usually thinly veiled hostility coloring the comments that feminists make. On the surface, feminist language argues in favor of inalienable rights like “equality”, “freedom of choice”, and the like. But there is a discernable, belligerent subtext to these comments that casts men, broadly, as the enemy, and society as complicit. By their choice of words and tone, feminists often cast themselves as the embattled victim, the angry activist, or any number of other roles that are unhelpful to meaningful dialogue. They are particularly unhelpful because every good guy needs a villain, and it’s not hard to conclude that you, the male in the vicinity representative of manhood (apparently) is that villain. It’s not true, of course, but it needn’t be. Individual men don’t have to be singled out as the targets of these statements. Feminist arguments are more bludgeons than scalpels; they put men on the defensive rather than starting from a place of assuming men are supportive of equality.

Which brings me to the most important point I want to make. I don’t believe women “should” be career women, nor do I believe they “should” be homemakers. I believe every woman has the right to choose the path in her life that is the best fit for her. But I also don’t believe there anything wrong with a man wanting to find and marry a woman who wants to be a career woman, or wants to be a homemaker. (This should be an uncontroversial point, but as I noted above, feminists will pay occasional lip service to it, but moments later assume that any woman who chooses a domestic life has fallen victim to society’s saddest expectations of her).

The single most important determinant of marital happiness is whether both partners want the same thing. If a wife wants to play a domestic role, and a husband wants her to play a domestic role, happiness results (assuming agreement on other conditions for happiness are met…finances, desire for kids, etc.). If a husband a wife both want each other to be working professionals, happiness for both. Trouble only knocks on the door, loudly, when couples have mismatched expectations of each other.

In defense of this blog, there is nothing wrong with a man saying, “I want a woman who wants to be the domestic nucleus of a family, the women around me do not want that, and I’ve gone in search of a place where I’m more likely to find women who define happiness the same way I do.” I think the blog takes an unnecessarily combative tone sometimes (it is, after all, called “Western Women Suck”), but that doesn’t mean that the underlying philosophies are not defensible. In fact, they are at the heart of freedom – that everyone should have right to define how they want to live their life, and they should be free to pursue happiness as they wish.

Good job to you.

#westernwomensuck.com

WWS recommended site: Elenas Models

#westernwomensuck

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109 thoughts on “Feminism is shooting itself in the foot”

I’m glad Scott published this. It was a good defense and a well written text but there was a serious problem:
Who raises the kids?

From what I came to understand, both the author and his wife are full-time workers. This is dangerous.
I ask again: who raises the kids?

Careers need attention. They need to have the person’s biggest attention. They need to be tendered, nurtured. The career (wo)man needs to give his best to the career. If you change all the occurrences of “career” in this paragraph and change it to children, it is still true.
I ask the guest: who raises the kids?

Children don’t know how to cook until they’re taught. They don’t know how to ride a bicycle until they’re taught. They don’t know how to deal with life’s hardships until someone hears them, understands them and comforts them. If they don’t get this attention, they become troubling teens and adults.
How about the kids? Who raises them?

Kids are not an appliance like a TV that whenever you have troubles you just send them to repair. Therapists, doctors, counselors… All of those careers are so prominent nowadays because their first helpers, the parents, are not present anymore. We see it all the time. We see teenagers needing to go to drugs, sex, fights all the time to fill the gap in their hearts where their parents where supposed to be. They lacked the education and love at their house.
I ask you: Who raises those kids?

Schools teachers nowadays are being expected to fulfill the role of parents. They’re being expected to teach the kids how to deal with life because their parents were busy pursuing their careers. They’re taught from inside their homes that the search for money and the comfort that things give them are more important than being cared, loved, nurtured and taught good principles. It is now expected of kids to be taught by life. The problem is that life is a cruel bitch.
I want to know: how life teaches the kids?

America’s jail population is statistically bigger than the rest of the world, maybe not by a couple of dictatorships but on the “free” world it’s the biggest problem.
How did life taught these kids?

I ask now the guest: how are your kids being raised? Who is listening to them? Who is teaching them to be good citizens? Are you being present there or your main role as a parent is to pay their bills instead of razing them?
Who is raising your kids?

This blog is the manifestation of our fears and hopes. Of our unwillingness to become bad parents. A proof of how far we are wanting to go to create a great home for our kids and ourselves. Of our search for love, respect, care. We don’t just want a hot wife. We understand that beauty goes away with age. But love, respect, manners, those never go away. We see defective houses all the time. We see a divorce rate of over 50% because these principles are simply not present with the way our women are growing.
Who raised these women? Life did. They were not raised. They were left to themselves.

Life is more than a career. Life is more than a hot wife. Life is more than high scoring kids. Life is about the relationships we have. We understand this. THIS is what we want from our companions, from the person we want and choose to love. We want our homes to be filled with respect, care and love. We understand that our defective women can’t provide us that.

Gustav, I agree. Family values often get canned in the States, in no small part due to feminism. I wrote an essay that touches on these points; it’s in the pipeline and is entitled “The Strong Woman and the Whale.” When it comes out, I’d love to get your feedback on it.

The important things is the communication with these women. They will talk with you and tell you about what they want. WW have forgotten about this little word and that there are 2 people in the relationship.

An EW will tell you her thoughts, feelings and wants. Because they want a family, but may also want a career later on. Having a woman who communicates with you her feelings and thoughts, is so amazing.

They want a family and a man to support them in all moments of your lives together. A WM, just need to listen and understand her. She will want a family and no matter how hard I tried to explain she needs to do what will make her happy and that I do not want a maid or mother. She always goes back to taking care of me, the family and then later, she may want to do something. “Will I support her, when it is time?”

This is the guest author, Frank. I’ll respond to Gustav’s question, “But who raises the kids?”, as concisely as I can.
I suspect from the tone of the comment that the question was raised rhetorically – that is, someone who asks a question in black or white terms is not prepared to hear or understand a grey answer. But I’ll still provide it that way.

Many, many modern households have two working parents. This has been going on long enough to conclude that working parents do not reliably produce maladjusted kids (in fact, studies show the opposite – that kids from dual-career homes fare quite well).

To answer your question directly, what’s typical is that one of the parents plays the role of the “primary parent.” In this case (and probably most), my wife plays that role. What that means is that I have taken a career path that requires considerable attention and dedication, and my wife has traded high compensation and trajectory for flexibility and more predictable hours. My wife is a lawyer, but works maybe 7-8 hours a day, with flexibility to leave as needed for doctor’s appointments, teacher’s meetings, etc.

Our children are in school, so the question of “who raises the kids” can be translated to “what do we do with them between the hours of 3pm and 5pm?” They go to after-school care, plain and simple.

But even before then, we had them in full-time day care. I can almost hear the groans of paternalistic blowhards, reciting cliche lines like “if you aren’t going to raise your own kids, you shouldn’t have them.” I won’t bother trying to change the minds of those determined to see the world in simplistic terms. All I can do is offer up my own experiences, that my kids were wonderfully socialized and grew up in a “village” setting in the day, and came home to a more nuclear family setting in the evening, and it worked out well for us. I don’t suggest this is the answer for everyone, but if you read my post, you know that the essence of what I believe is that there is no single standard of “best” that is universally applicable, and that we all need to make decisions that serve our interests best.

Well, my original text was supposed to make people think. The questions are all rhetorical, adapted each paragraph to make oneself think on his own actions and see how he can improve. It was not supposed to have a black and white answer, nor a definitive one, maybe even no answer at all but at the end I give my own answer to them (which is my life goal). I don’t expect you to follow my example but I know that if more people took enough care of their children and if kids had more present parents our society wouldn’t be as ruined as it currently is. Violence has always been prominent in low income families exactly because of the lack of parenting and someone to teach these people good morals and principles. I work with health care and whenever I see impossible to handle kids I always see the lack of good parenting. Those two go hand to hand. I’m yet to see an exception.

Well, I was writing quite a lot here but in the end I realized I was trying to teach you how to live your life and that is intrusive. I have several points of disagreement with your ideas but I also recognize where you are honestly trying to be a good parent and that is great.

I really hope the two of you can manage to become even greater parents than you already are. Remember that trying to constantly improve is what makes us move forward instead of backwards.

Before I go, I’d like to finish by telling you that asserting your interlocutor can’t hear understand your ideas is pretty rude. You are a grown man and you know better than this. Rhetorical questions often don’t need and answer and are made with the sole purpose of making one think. Be more careful next time.

The guest makes some good points, and to be fair yes all women have there own mind to make there own choices in life. But as Gustav points out, the kids are the ones that suffer the choices of there parents. I see nothing wrong with a woman wanting to work, but if her work is more important then her kids, then there is a problem, same goes for the man too.

So to me a “strong” woman that wants a carrier and a family is making a choice, now that choice has consequences that affect the whole life of someone else, the kids. So this choice is, in my opinion, a very selfish choice on the part of the woman ( I am just going to leave out the stay at home dad, I’m saying if both want to work). Why would anyone want to choice there work over there kids? Now as an old fashioned man, I understand that I have to work as much as I can so I can provide for my family, but this is different then putting work first, I can always find another job, my family is the only one I have (no I do not have kids yet). But for a woman, kids are there whole world, or it’s supposed to be..

if our guest is happy in his marriage, the wife is happy and hte kids are not suffering, then I say more power to him, it works for them. But I also have a feeling that he does not know any better either as I was once there (with out the kids) I knew nothing other then American women, until this year and my eyes were opened up and I do not really find American woman even attractive anymore. Well, driving through the university in the summer is still a nice drive LOL.

I feel bad for all the families that are working just as the guest says, the kids are not getting what they need at home, and just as Gustav said, there turning to drugs, crime and sex as a way to reach out, which in turn they grow up even more broken and the whole system is in a down ward spiral and it just makes me sick..

But, if that is what people want to do, or how they want to live and raise there kids, who am I to say anything? Myself I could care less as I am am done with American women, I am sick of how my country has started to decay and I had no idea it was as bad as it is until I met my Filipino fiance and stayed with her and her family for a month. I am/was proud American conservative from the hills of KY, but now I am almost ashamed to call myself an American due to the way our society has deteriorated….The only reason I stay here is for work, since it’s so hard for American to find work over seas, well when your work is just a blue collar labor type work..

I even though the guest wrote a well point, as I read it again I can see that this is indoctrinated propaganda at work and the guy has for the lack of a better term, been brain washed. I too was there, but I have seen the light and I know there is something better out there, but you have to take the blinders off and open your eyes, I have done this and yes this site was a part of that, but the real eye opener is visiting an eastern country and just live with them for a few weeks.

I will stand any EW next to a American woman any day. The American woman, would call my woman weak, just a servant to me and the list would go on and on.

But to have woman who is smart, kind, tender, honestly cares about herself, her man (aka her family) is completely mind blowing. Every time I speak with my lady, I am amazed. Watching her moves, enjoy life with me, talking, listening to her, I just wish I had met this woman a few years ago.

Western women are lost to an ideal, that has turned the world against them. Ask a woman here what she thinks about WW. First she will not speak badly at all. These are proud women and live life honestly and as a woman. But a few words is all you will get and nothing more. “American women have forgotten how to be a lady” Amen to this statement. These EW are not you maid or mother. They are a true lady in all sense of this word.

This dead horse can be beaten all day, everyday, but facts speak for themselves.

Have you noticed that even the bad foreign wives and mothers — according to the opinions of other foreign men — still seem to make better wives and mothers than the average western woman? That observation speaks for itself. Imagine getting a good foreign wife.

This is Frank, the guest author. I responded to Gustav’s point last night, and it successfully loaded on site, but seems to have been taken down. Not sure what’s going on?

Gustav’s and Ford’s question is essentially, “fine, but who takes care of the kids?”

Two-income households have been in existence long enough that it’s clear they don’t reliably produce maladjusted kids. In fact, studies show the opposite – that kids from dual-career households fare quite well. This isn’t some dark secret of academic research; you can easily Google this.

In most households, one parent serves the role of “primary parent”. In my household, that is my wife. This means that I’ve chosen a career that demands my constant attention, but my wife has traded income potential for flexibility so that she can be attentive to things like the kids’ dentist appointments, soccer mom meetings, teacher conferences, etc. Not all dual-career households fall into this arrangement, but most do.

My kids are in school. So Gustav’s question, “who raises the kids?”, can be roughly translated to “what do you do with your kids between the hours of 3pm and 5pm?” They go to after-school care, plain and simple. Nobody else is “raising” my kids.

This is an arrangement that works for me. I happen to know stay-at-home moms in my kids’ school who are literally bored to tears between the hours of 8am-3pm (when the kids are in school), but have been derailed from the professional workforce and cannot re-enter it effectively. This, to me, is a bigger tragedy – not just for the wife, but for the entire family who must suffer the emotional fallout of a mother/wife who feels her self-worth is tied to her ability to do something domestically useful at all times.

I am not advocating for dual-career households, at all. In fact, I will concede that dad-at-work/mom-at-home works well for a great many people. What I do advocate for is that happiness results when both partners want the same thing. There is no universal “best situation”. Each man and woman has to go in search of a partner who wants the same thing they do – THAT is the essence of happiness.

Sorry for the late reply and “comment approval.” I just went overseas this weekend and was away from the computer.

All 1st comments are held for moderation because there is just so much spam. After a first comment has been approved, you can post comments without moderation so long as you use the same name and email address. I just approved another comment of yours (below) and now this one, you should be able to comment without restriction now.

I have been married 2 times to American women. One from Cali and other from the South. Each one different in their own way, but the same in western womens ideals. Each after a few years, got lazy and stopped taking care of themselves. There were excuses, more then Jimmy Carter has liver pills about, but the excuses got old and quickly. “I just do not have time to do everything”. Funny, because I was cleaning and doing the laundry, taking care of the outside, as well and still had time to make it to the GYM.

My lady here, just amazes me at all turns. Works, cooks, cleans and goes to school at tonight and not one time have I ever heard her complain about one damn thing. I offer to do something to help her out or buy something for her and her smile fades and she gets silent. She is proud of who and what she is and this is a lady first and foremost. She wants to do things herself, but she wants me to be there to support her, like she supports me. She wants a family, to be a mother and then do her dream. You show me one WW, that will do such a thing or even speak like this.

Come here, meet a woman from this part of the world. Talk and really listen to what they are saying. You will never speak to another WW again.

You’ve described a picture perfect scenario of a marriage with a North American female- rather sooner than later they’ll start making excuses for all kinds of their own problems, setbacks, faults and deficiencies. The main slogan for every western female is “Love me such as I come”! which handily comes as a universal excuse for anything.
Sa damn true, Ukrainian/Russian women value their “lady” role in the family whereas North American females have only one goal-to sell themselves to the highest male bidder on a dating market. And then MALE is supposed to be “everything” from lover, fucker, provider, cleaning lady, maid, cook etc.
Western women will NEVER understand that strong and evolving family is a life long work in progress requiring JOINT efforts of both male AND female!!

I keep telling Canadian males that they should just pack their bags and leave Canada behind for good! They’ll never regret this decision for 1 second or look back!

LOL!
— — — — —
You’ve described a picture perfect scenario of a marriage with a North American female- rather sooner than later they’ll start making excuses for all kinds of their own problems, setbacks, faults and deficiencies. The main slogan for every western female is “Love me such as I come”! which handily comes as a universal excuse for anything.
— — — — — —
They use another term too!
“Accept me for who I am”
That really means, accept my shortcomings, my childish behavior, and my lack of discipline, which I will never make any real attempts to improve, never!

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’ve been to Eeastern Europe some 20 times and in the airport, waiting for the flight back to the US, I talk to all the Western Men and I always ask, “Having seen what you’ve seen, now knowing what you know, will you ever date an American woman again? The answer is ALWAYS ‘no.'” Not, 90% no, not 99% no, I’ve never met a Man who went to Russia or Ukraine who said, ‘Well, the EE ladies are hot, but its just too much work, I’ll go back to eHarmony.

True that, so damn TRUE!
If you are a frequent flyer then you KNOW where the “west” starts in any international airport.
All it takes is ONE look at the people nearby the Gate to find out where the flight is going;) I used to play this “game” a lot in different airports when flying to Toronto. The ugliest crowd of BOTH men and women has always been an indicator of the “Toronto Gate”. You don’t even have to check the announcements, just go to the gate with the ugliest people around it and you ain’t gonna make no mistake, the flight departs either to Canada or USA.

I can certainly appreciate your situation and the situation of many Men that are in a similar marriage arrangement. But what I propose to you is this: your Wife was raised a generation ago and while she is still a career minded Woman, she still has some maternal instincts in her. I can’t say the same for the latest batch of American women.

Yesterday, Alana and I were at the airport. Women, aged 16 to 30, if they were Chinese, Guatemalan, Spanish, Argentine, Arab or Indian, they smiled, waved to our baby gave us nods of approval, etc.

Almost without exception, EVERY American (black & white) had quite the opposite reaction. Probably about 1/2 didn’t even notice the baby and the other half, looked at the baby, looked at me, looked at my Wife, looked back to the baby and then shook their heads in approval or rolled their eyes in disgust. For them, the very idea of a child means the end of their ability to live a “fun and interesting” single life.

These women have been propagandized to hate the idea of motherhood and traditional marriage.

I’m glad that you and your Wife can make it work I just argue to say that for the average 20-30 year old Man, this isn’t an option.

Additionally, what about the 40 year old Man, without Wife & kids but who is interested? Feminist America teaches that any Man who dates a woman more than 2 years younger than him is a creepy pervert. So, if you’re 42 and you want kids, THERE ARE NO AVAILABLE WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES with whom to make a marriage and family. The ONLY alternative for men +40 who want kids is to look overseas.

“I can’t say the same for the latest batch of American women.”
— — — — —
I am 30-something man never married without kids but I even notice this myself. Many American women especially the hardcore-career-types in their 20s and 30s give babies and small children nasty looks or just ignore them all the time. A couple of women I have worked with in the past used to say all the time in the office that they “hate children.”
I am a man and I don’t hate small children.
How can a woman hate children?
The silver lining (mentioned in your last paragraph) is that I will soon be way too old for American women in their prime (at peak fertility) so I will have to go overseas to find a great wife in her prime. During my peak (or manly prime and way after) I will still have plenty of ammo to spare but a woman only 2 years younger than me — well her ovaries would have gotten tired of screaming and just committed suicide by that time.
I’ll just go East or South.

Scott,
Firstly, I should say it feels odd to take this side of a debate. I’m generally in agreement with your pursuits and their motivations. In this little slice of life, though, I think I see things somewhat differently.

I believe you’re painting with an overly broad brush when you say thing like “THERE ARE NO AVAILABLE WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES with whom to make a marriage and family”. I don’t know where you live or what social circles you occupy, but this is utter nonsense.

I will grant you that a great many women (by number, not by ratio!) try to live lifestyles appropriates to their twenties way too long…well into their thirties, and by the time they realize they want a family, their biological clocks are in distress and the men that might have found them interesting a decade ago are no longer interested. Yes, this happens. And it sucks, but hey, I feel like they are lying in the bed they made for themselves.

It’s also true that the women who were brought up being told “you can have it all” are now telling their *own* kids, “you can have it all…you just can’t have it all at the same time.”

But to cleave the female world into two parts – seemingly 1950s housewives vs Sex-And-The-City airheads – is an epic oversimplification. It doesn’t, in any way, represent the reality of a society I experience daily. (To be fair, I occupy an affluent, highly-educated slice of society, and it’s possible you and I are exposed to different circles).

In my life, I have encountered countless Sex-and-the-City types. They bore me, and I realize (as you do) that their smiles are painted on with increasing pain as the years progress. I have also encountered countless housewife aspirants, and I find them just as boring, but in a different way.

But those are not the only two options in life. I also know a great many women – my wife included, but also many of our friends – who are intelligent enough to carry a serious intellectual discussion, but who also value their families and children. We all – the men included – struggle to find the perfect balance of career and domestic aspirations. But I never go to bed wishing my wife were just a little less ambitious, just a little more focused on how much cleaner the floor could be. That would make me happy for a year and frustrated for a lifetime after.

This isn’t an indictment of your WWS pursuits. As I’ve said, my highest-order value is that people are free to choose the lives they want. But I also think it’s fair to inject some needed grey into what you’ve characterized as a black-and-white social phenomenon.

You’ve misread my comment, I didn’t say that there are no available Women in the United States. I said, IF YOU’RE A MAN IN HIS 40’S WHO WANTS MARRIAGE AND A FAMILY, THERE ARE NO AVAILABLE WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES.

The VAST MAJORITY of American women, especially those in the 18-35 year old bracket, have a problem with marrying a guy 10+ or more years their senior.

That said, lets do the math:

You’re 45.

You want a Wife and kids.

You’ll be lucky to find a 38 year old American woman who doesn’t think you’re “too old” for her.

So, you find a 38 year old who will “settle” for you.

1 year for dating (she’s now 39).
Marriage and a kid later (she’s now 40).

A year or two off and she’s going to start on kid #2 at 42?

Yeah, sure. On some blue moon with sparkling stars, our 1 in 10,000 Man will find that perfect match.

But, most guys, they set out to find the right one and invest 2, 5 maybe 10 years in the process.

I started looking for a Wife, in earnest, after my 31st birthday. I would send “expressions of interest” to 27 or 28 year old women on eHarmony or Match and I would get back some pretty rude replies that I was almost a pedophile for “stalking” such “young ladies.”

Frank, I pray your marriage works out and you never have to get back into the marriage (cess)pool that is the American woman. You have a gem, good for you. Check out what’s date-able at 25 today. Rude, self-entitled and overweight women who believe that a Man is a means to an end or the enemy.

In the by and large, the average American woman will put on over 40 pounds during maternity and after 5 years will not have lost the weight. One of Alana’s girlfriends has 4 kids and is barely a size larger than when she was at Uni.

If we cut up the “child-bearing” female population in the US, you will find that 1/2 or more are obese. Of the 50% that remain, 1/2 don’t want kids. Of the 1/4 that remain, probably 80% won’t make good Mothers: don’t know how to cook, don’t want kids, think that motherhood is a curse rather than a blessing.

If we look at one hundred 18-35 year old women in America, I’d say we “might” find one gem.

Go to Russia or Ukraine, you’ll find that well over 1/2 of the Women in the same bracket will make good Moms, want to get married, and are much hotter than most American Men can realize.

If I were 45 and looking for a wife with whom I could start a family, you are correct. Finding an attractive mate of child-bearing years at that point would be a Sisyphean task. “Pickins be slim”, as my friend Danny would say.

The exception I took, however, wasn’t to the strategy of a man in his middle-age years wasting no time finding a wife where his stock is higher.

My post was about the sad state of feminism these days, and how people should be free to choose the shape of their lives that brings them happiness. Subsequent commenter(s) have asked “but what about the kids”, to which I responded that kids’ welfare is not in jeopardy by having a wife who is a professional. Your comment to me was that international women love families but American women have been brought up to fetishize singlehood, to be hostile to the presumption they should be shackled to a family life.

It’s this idea that I disagree with. I might live in a different America than you, but the America I experience daily isn’t one filled with fat, entitled, family-hating women. That’s not to say they don’t exist – they do, and I see them – it’s that they are a single dimension of a multi-dimensional society, and not even one that one needs to be bothered with.

Now, again, if your own life clock is tickin’ louder these days, and the prospect of dating women in their late 30s/early 40s (who could uncharitably be called “the leftovers”) isn’t enticing to you, hell….I totally get it. I’d probably do the same thing if I were in your shoes.

You’re right, we live in different worlds. I dare say that the world you live in – married Man with two kids – is a universe away from a 28 year old Man, out of college, who is looking for a Wife and kids. You seem to assume that the 20-something American women are more like your Wife than not, I beg to disagree. I suggest you go to some of the ladies websites and see what the 24 something ladies are giving each other in the way of marriage/dating/child-rearing advice and or have a dialogue and see who’s reality is farther from the truth.

Yes, I paint with a wide brush. But only after I’ve really opened my eyes and looked around. Frank, you’re life sounds quite interesting but I fear it is quite detached from the dating life that so many American Men are currently suffering in.

I’m totally with Scott on this one! He’s 100000% right in his descriptions and characteristics of American/Canadian female population!
I ain’t got nothing to add to what he’s just said and pointed out.
I’ve left Canada 7+ years ago and started a new life in Russia and Ukraine! And I’ll never go back to Canada! I’ve never regretted my decision for 1 second!
Every able bodied and self respecting male individual should just pack his bags and get out of North America. And the sooner the better!

And I sure can back up every word with facts and deeds.
I do strongly recommend every able bodied and self respecting male individual to leave North America behind for good and ASAP!
Grass is indeed greener on the other side of the pond called Atlantic ocean.

Scott, any women from teenage years and up are full of feminist entitlement crap. I humbly disagree with your age range (If you’re a man in his 40’s). I have encountered feminist crap since I was a teen boy (born in 81) trying his luck with girls, and in fact I’ve noticed that once women hit their 30’s and they start to hear their clocks ticking, in fact those women are the best, i.e. the least full of shit (as good as best can be when talking about women in the west). The pits of bloody hell are women below ages 30-35. Of course that’s talking from a white South African point of view. I’ve heard Britain, USA etc are far worse.

The issue for me isn’t whether women have the right to choose. Of course they do. The issue is why are those women getting to their 30s and 40s and then regretting not starting a family? It’s because wanting to be a nurturer, a mother, a wife, caretaker etc. is biologically built into women and our feminist society raises today’s girls to believe there’s something wrong with that. And in that way feminism, ironically, is taking away a woman’s right to choose, by shaming the choice she is biologically predisposed to make. I would laugh at the irony it weren’t so sad and pathetic.

Respectfully, this dialogue is conflating two points.
#1. Lots of modern women put off families until it’s too late, and then regret it
#2. There are no good family-oriented women to be found in US

#1 may be true, but it doesn’t cause #2. If someone finds himself at 45 and wondering where all the “good women” are, he is guilty of the same thing he’s charged another with – waiting so long that you become an unattractive potential life partner.

As a man, you should wake up and count your stars every day that your gender has gifted you with the rarest thing: a second chance. Your female counterparts are screwed because biology tells them when their time is up. Men have the option to pack their bags and go somewhere that a US passport gives you a few-year bump in your attractiveness rating, and a new lease on life. But at least call it what it is. To suggest that American women are universally fat, entitled, uninterested in families is a foreign concept to the legions of American men who seem to be living in a different world than the one you’re describing.

SPOT ON, again!! All it takes is a “trip” to a webpage like PlentyOfFish for example and allocating some time to actually read female profiles while noting what an overwhelming majority of women there is about. And that majority will time and time again confirm that Scott is indeed right!

Frank, I met a friend of my (soon to be wife) and she is 25 (extremely beautiful) and he boyfriend is 45. They do not care about how much money you have, what care you drive, how big your house is or where you work. They do not care about these things.

They want a man, who will be honest and true to them and them only. Be there when she is having a bad day (she will be there everyday for you). Treat her like a lady. You would be surprised at how just a simple walk in the park will make her day. Taking her hand and being proud of her. Moments are what they hold dear.

WM need to get over this age thing, because at home you are not going to find a woman like this you will find here. Well, maybe in some remote part of North American, but in general nowhere.

I am now 50 and my Lady is 29. I thought too young, but when she holds my hand in public, it shows me should careless. Age is not a factor in how these women, chose their man. It is who you are and trust me, you will not fool these women. But you will not find a better woman to love and to be loved by…

Soooo damn true, man…. I can attest to EVERY word written above!!!
Any date in North America resembles a job interview at Microsoft HR department when applying to some managerial position! Even the ugliest North American female always thinks that she’s a beauty queen and totally EXPECTS that a male has millions on his bank account, has a status job, drives a luxury car and lives in a mansion. And all that should be shared with a whale of a North American woman unconditionally!
There are some mandatory questions EVERY North American woman asks male on the first date! That’s why a date ain’t no date in America, it is a job interview! Fuck that!

I’m sorry, but on some base intellectual level you have to be understand the folly in things like this:
“”Even the ugliest North American female always thinks that she’s a beauty queen and totally EXPECTS that a male has millions on his bank account, has a status job, drives a luxury car and lives in a mansion. ”

Your frustration with finding a suitable mate in North America is palpable, but it’s hard for me to understand when you’re talking in hyperbole versus when you really, actually believe what you’re writing. The ugliest North American female thinks she’s a model? She expects that dateable men are millionaires and live in mansions? If you really, truly believe these things, then you and I are ships passing in the night.

This entire thread is a debate between absolutes (American women are fat/entitled/anti-family; men who aren’t millionaires don’t stand a chance dating in the US) and my attempt to bring some base level of texture to the discussion (there are plenty of great women in the US; feminism is not at the root of *all* of your dating problems; American women are not all or even overwhelmingly anti-family).

I think you and I must just live in different worlds in the same country. I live in Los Angeles. (and no, the women here are not all botox-infused yoga-hippy aspiring actresses, contrary to popular assumption outside of LA). Many women here are indeed stunning, and fit, and they do in fact by and large settle down and have families and live normal lives.

Interesting article and points but I would have to disagree with some of the assumptions. In particular, men and women do not age and peak the same way — biologically, emotionally, and socially. Women are at their zenith around 23/24; from the age of 15 to 25 she is riding high. Men in that age range have a value of less than zero and everyone over 30 knows that. A man’s value doesn’t even begin to climb until he is in his late 20s, doesn’t peak until his late 30s/early 40s, and starts to slowly descend until he’s in his early 50s. Feminism stands in opposition of common sense and mother nature. Why would any sane man in the west that has a clue make deal when his value is at his lowest? Yet when his value is at his highest he is supposed to make concessions.

Frank, why are you ignoring the question if you’ve ever been to Russia or Ukraine?;)
I do stand by my words and I do mean what I say.
And YES: ”Even the ugliest North American female always thinks that she’s a beauty queen and totally EXPECTS that a male has millions on his bank account, has a status job, drives a luxury car and lives in a mansion. ”
It ain’t no hyperbole, it’s a reality of life in North America.
YES, the ugliest North American female DOES THINK that she’s indeed a model!
YES, she DOES EXPECT that a male she would AGREE to date is indeed a millionaire with a mansion and a luxury car!
YES, there ARE exceptions to this general rule, but they are VERY VERY few and far between!

We are not in the same country since I’m a Former CANADIAN;)
California females are a lot better than the rest of US on the outside, no argument here, but they are all the same on the inside and it matters the most, unfortunately.

My experiences are based on living in Toronto;) Remember, I’m a former CANADIAN after all;)

I wasn’t trying to dodge the question of whether I’ve been to Russia/Ukraine. Candidly, I was not sure where the line between rhetorical question and legitimate question was drawn in your post. I have been to Russia, and I have not been to Ukraine.

Your clarifications are helpful. I don’t think you and I are really having the same conversation, so I’m going to bow out now. If you really, truly believe what you’re writing, as you say you do (that with very few exceptions, even the ugliest American woman thinks she’s a beauty queen; and they believe dateable men are only those with millions of dollars who live in mansions), then I don’t think we are going to agree on much else. To me your perspective on the world doesn’t survive even the most elementary logical scrutiny. I suspect in your mind you must be thinking of me, “well you you’re just brainwashed/one of *them*.”

I’m not sure there’s more to say on this. We live in different worlds. I hope we’re both happy in our own. That’s the important thing.

I have a LOT of family in Los Angeles and I can say that the dating pool, while more athletic and fit, is horrible when compared to the midwest. California women are about the bottom of the barrel when it comes to dating and raising children. I’m not talking about the 40-50 year old Cali women, I’m talking 18-35. Frank, seriously, look around at the 20 something women in “your” sphere. If you’re a rich guy driving a porsche, you have a shot in LA. If you’re a regular Joe, who just wants a Wife and kids, you might as well be living on Mars.

I’m 38 now. I was 35 not long ago, and even 30 before then. We aren’t talking about huge generational shifts I’ve seen.

That you need to be a rich guy with a Porsche to have a shot dating defies logic. Hundreds of thousands of people must get married every year in this city. Statistically, a tiny percentage of them are actually happening with millionaire types. Attractive women do marry non-millionaires – every day, all day and even more on weekends.

There are people I’ve known who would not be attractive prospects to most women if they didn’t have money, but those men were insufferable assholes – the kind who wear affliction t-shirts :). But sorry, the vast majority of marriages occur among people not even close to being millionaires, and a great many of them are happening between good, nice, family-oriented human beings who want to love each other.

Part of the problem is that you’re looking at this argument through the eyes of a feminist. Like it or not, you are a feminist as are most American Men. And when you see a woman acting in a way that would be shocking to Men in other countries around the world, you aren’t shocked because it is normal for you. But, for the Men that frequently visit Asia, South America and Eastern Europe, for those who are dating and/or married to traditional Women from outside of the Western world, they are shocked at the bad attitudes of Western women. You see it as normal, we see it as terrible. You couldn’t pay me to date an American woman. Even a pretty, fit American with a “good attitude.” Because deep down inside, there is a feminist pot brewing. She wants her cake and she wants to eat it too.

You don’t see it. I get that. But for so many Men, they just sense that something is amiss. They don’t have it as good as their Father or Grandfather. They wonder, “Why am I having so much trouble making a woman happy?” And then they go to Ukraine and realize its the American women, not them who have warped and really really unrealistic expectations.

Its not just that feminism has shot itself in the foot. It is that the VAST majority of American women have bought into the idea of feminism and now they want a career, they want kids, they want everything. They’re like little kids and when they can’t have it, they’re mad about it.

American women are selfish. Russian Women will go to the ends of the earth for their Men and their children. The gulf between Eastern and Western women is so huge and that you don’t get it is a reflection of your own feminist beliefs.

…but what about the divorce rate in SoCal?
— — —
There are people I’ve known who would not be attractive prospects to most women if they didn’t have money, but those men were insufferable assholes – the kind who wear affliction t-shirts :).
— — —
Those assholes still wear affliction shirts?
;)

I can hear clapping…
— — — — —
But, for the Men that frequently visit Asia, South America and Eastern Europe, for those who are dating and/or married to traditional Women from outside of the Western world, they are shocked at the bad attitudes of Western women. You see it as normal, we see it as terrible.
— — — — — —
There are certain subtle and overt behaviors that many western men will not notice unless they have dated or hung out with foreigners.

And again I totally confirm everything Scott wrote here.
North American females are light years away from their Eastern European counterparts.
Every North American female absolutely wants everything to be given her on a silver platter!!! They simply do not understand that it takes TWO to build a strong and evolving family and that one has to give FIRST before receiving anything back!
North American females bring nothing to the family! Even when married they still want to fuck around, fool around and do nothing for the family.
All it takes is a short trip to any dating North Americvan website and quick browse through female profiles of ANY age to confirm my words!

In response to Scott, I think your and my orientation towards the world is just different. I don’t think I can appropriately be characterized as a feminist. That’s the first time I’ve been called that, but if the term is elastic enough in your head to include someone like me, I can’t define the term for you.

Frankly, I think you’ve painted your beliefs into a corner. They are unfalsifiable. ( That is not a good thing). If I agree with you, I am on the right side of the argument. If I do not, it is because I just don’t know any better. Please don’t infantilize me. I am stating an opinion based on a logical analysis, and your arguments back are reduced to an ad hominem attack paired with absurd generalities that paint an entire generation with a broad brush.

You and I have not had similar experiences dating. Sorry. I have not found every woman ive dated to be interviewing me and counting the dollar bills in my wallet. The common denominator in your experience… Is you.

No one is trying to “infantilize” you. We just have different opinions based on our very different life experiences.

Perhaps a better title to this article would have been, “Extreme feminism is shooting itself in the foot.” Because it isn’t feminism per se that you’re unhappy with but rather, you’re unhappy with extreme feminism. And I say that because, whether you care to accept it or not, you’re a feminist. I know because I’m a feminist. I fight it, try to not be, but it is almost impossible to not be a feminist if you were raised in America in the last 3 or 4 decades.

When compared to the Men of Saudi Arabia, believe me, we’re feminists.

My Wife is less a feminist than I am.

Having said that, if you’re happy with your Wife, good on you. If we put feminism on sliding scale, 1 being a Saudi Man and 99 being a radical feminist, and maybe you’re a 30 and I’m 20, there are a lot of men out there that are more in the 20 range who are completely unhappy with American women. That you’re Wife is great doesn’t change the fact that most American women don’t make good wives. They aren’t a good selection for the average American Man who is not inclined towards feminism.

Each to their own. I’m glad you’re happy. But there is a growing segment of American Men who have come to realize, what I’ve realized, that the problem is with American women (most of them) and their spoiled sense of entitlement.

Scott, the problem with a majority of American males is when they get married they suddenly start thinking that life ain’t that bad after all and females around them suddenly start looking more attractive than before. Males get some kind of a false confidence or assurance. It’s hard to explain, it’s more of a psychological North American thing when married males become pussified and delusional about the reality around them. They think that being married equals being Alpha (though I do not like this word) or a real leader when in fact it does NOT.

I never, ever saw myself as a feminist, but I guess it depends on what qualifies as a feminist. If not wanting a woman in a beekeeper outfit (lookin at you guys, Saudi Arabia!) makes me feminist in their eyes, then I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks! I’ve seen a lot of North American males, normal able bodied self respecting males who turned into pussified delusional individuals mere 3 months after the marriage. People somehow tend to think that getting married equals winning a lottery in terms of male “toughness” and masculinity and see it as an achievement. Whereas marriage is a life long work in progress requiring JOINT efforts from BOTH male and female, and I’m talking every day and even hourly efforts here!!

Thank you for your entries onto this blog. Up until today, I had not read your guest blog and the following discussion and I took time today to thoughtfully make my reply.

Your discussion is very intelligent and your writing is very eloquent, however your direction is misplaced and your defensive content is without experience.

From your perspective and life experience, I can see how you believe in your stance.

For example, both Scott and I are both Americans, have served our country in the Armed Forces, and both of us have lived a large part of our lives outside the US. Plus, I am from the LA area, having left over 3 years ago. My point is, you should really listen to what we are saying, because we’ve been on both side of the fence. Not just visited Russia, like you have. A visit is not the same as have lived, naturally.

So, when we are saying, along with FC and a couple of others here, that we are seriously and without question, absolutely happy, believe it. There is no debating it. And we don’t need Beverly Hills, Porches or 2 karat diamond rings on our wives to prove it. My wife and daughter, with me here in Germany, are living on about $2000 a month from my income and VA disability. That’s considered low income in the western world. However, my wife doesn’t devote her commitment to me based on my paycheck. If she was a WWS, sure, she’d have been gone a long time ago. She’s 25 years younger than me, so that alone blows out the old myth that younger EE women only marry older men for their money or opportunity (broad brush strokes are like that, you know.)

You see, although you are an extremely intelligent gentlemen, but unless you’ve lived in our shoes, you cannot get it. You only know what you have read or have heard.

And that segue ways into my next point. Having read all of your posts, I noted that you brought up a couple of times, such as the following:
“Many, many modern households have two working parents. This has been going on long enough to conclude that working parents do not reliably produce maladjusted kids (in fact, studies show the opposite – that kids from dual-career homes fare quite well).”

I took your advice and put into Google, the following question, “Two income family studies. Are the children being raised properly?” I have a Biology degree and also worked 12 years in Pharmaceutical Sales (following my Army retirement), so I am very familiar with scientific studies. Believe me, studies can be bent in favor of the title. In your case, I found quite the opposite information from your unsubstantiated claims (*see below). In fact, numerous studies show the actual decline of the family.

Its quite elementary, Frank. How can a child be raised with proper values when the 2 parents are hardly home and being raised by strangers? In Ukraine, its so far from the American culture, that it would be mind blowing to capitalistic feminists. Money is important, but time is way more important. For example, do you remember what gifts you received from your mom and dad, for your birthday’s, or for Christmas? Doubtful, you remember all. But, I can guarantee you remember many special moments you spent with your mom/dad, whether it was going camping, fishing, playing ball or special advice. Its not the material things Frank, its the time you spend.

My wife spends every waking minute with our daughter and I am gone 12 hours a day, 6 days a week! But, I can guarantee you I don’t spend one second having a cold one with colleagues or hesitating for a moment to get home. On my one day off per week, I am with both of them every waking moment. No more golf for me. Believe me, being a former Pepsi Tour player there in So Cal (semi-pro), its a sacrifice, but well worth it.

If you have read any of my prior blogs, I am sure you have come across my experiences having lived for 2 years in Ukraine and how I found the family experience to be the best ever. Ladies take 3 years off from work to raise their children. Compare that to the paltry 6 weeks or the 3 months a mother can take off in the US. Has anyone thought outside the box about what the hell is going on with the violence in the US? We’re shocked and saddened by the tragic terror attack in Paris, and before and after, we’re reading about the accelerated mass shootings that the US is suffering from. Has anyone thought why this doesn’t happen in Ukraine? Frank, get down to the basics and remove all the fluff you put into your blogs. America is ruining itself by not providing proper parental time with their kids. Yes, I am putting the onus with these mass murders on the lack of proper parenting and I am not going to use a study to substantiate. Like a former coach used to tell us, “Just use your horse sense!”

I am asking you step outside of the bubble that you talk about that you and your neighbors live in. Its not like that all over the US. The fact that I had to find the love of my life halfway across the world and be the happiest I’ve ever been in my life (as well as the others here who have found the same), should say volumes to you, man. Be open to what we are saying and thankful for what we’ve found. I am happy for you, with your wedding bliss. That’s the bottom line right?

BTW, with my former Ukraine based marriage agency, I was able to add 4 more men of the western world to their lives of happiness with Ukrainian ladies. Not bad for not ever having advertised and exploited the women like these online asses do. Good and devoted Ukrainian ladies are rarely found online. A man has to do what every man has done since the dawn of time. You go there and date them properly and win their heart.

Shiit, Rodney, you’ve just put down some very good stuff here! Man oh man, so damn spot on!
Western males always seem to get carried away by the mainstream propaganda that a strong and evolving family is based on money, prosperity , wealth and status in the society thus the desire of every western female to sell herself to the highest male bidder on a dating market while western males gladly accept this trend!
Eastern European females do understand the importance of money and finances but at the same time they realize that a strong and evolving family is a product of a daily joint effort of BOTH male and female and that it takes time and is more fun to reach goals like prosperity and financial stability TOGETHER without taking it for granted or desperately looking for it on a silver platter like western women do.
Eastern European women appreciate honesty, integrity, respect, dignity, mutual understanding and support in a relationship whereas a western woman is only after money, even MORE money and status in the society! And this is the insurmountable difference between the east and the west! I honestly wish that every western male could experience what eastern Europe really is about in terms of women and relationships.

Rodney,
I appreciate your well-thought out response. Were all of the commenters here as lucid, this would be a less aggravating discussion at times. Sometimes it feels like people make simplistic (ok, stupid) comments just to get a rise.

This has been a really useful discussion for me, personally. Let me propose a hypothesis for what I think is going on here, and why your/Scott’s and my perspectives on the world are colliding with one another. I should thank you first, because I doubt I’d have gained this clarity without this discussion.

Frankly, I live in a bubble. I realize this more clearly now. Reading you and Scott (and other commenters) drop nuggets about their personal lives, I can see some signals about how our lives differ. I do not have family members who joined the military, I do not have friends who do any form of unskilled or blue-collar work, etc. Almost all of my friends have master’s degrees or professional post-college degrees. I live in a very wealthy part of a very expensive city. If I’m being honest, the world seems to be tilted towards people like me. Life is made easier, more appealing, for people like me in the world I inhabit. I can admit this in the anonymity of a website like this. The women in my life are not as Scott/others describe them – fat, lazy, entitled slobs. They are generally eloquent, interesting people. I realize their social privilege confers upon them certain advantages – straight white teeth, well-cared for hair, gym memberships, worldliness acquired through extensive travel, lots of educational opportunities – and that contributes to the way they look, act, and carry themselves.

This may be, at its heart, less a discussion about feminism and American women, and more a discussion on the impact of social class on the kind of life you experience on a day to day basis. While there may be a few, I doubt there are many particularly privileged men heading to Eastern Europe for a mate. The world seems to be working pretty darn well for those men here in the US. The reason I don’t personally want a doting housewife is that I can’t relate to someone like that. My wife does make dinner every night, but what I value more than dinner is the conversation on world affairs and business dealings she’s working on that she brings to the table with her.

I can see that there isn’t a right answer here, a single right kind of woman for every man out there. Our preferences are largely shaped by the circumstances in which we find ourselves in life. We don’t enter the world with innate judgments of what a “good woman” looks like. Those preferences are shaped by the needs we have based on our upbringing, life experiences, and circumstances.

So far as affluent Men dating in the East, it is my experience that a large proportion of Men heading East are affluent and also, recently divorced.

I have a brother who lives in an affluent area in Orange County, California, and on weekdays, I go down to Starbucks and it is wall to wall MILFs. I listened once to a group of 6 or 7 of them, most quite hot, many in workout attire – it looked as if they had come from the gym. And they were all discussing in which day-care their toddlers and infants were in. Is this day care better or do you have a nanny, etc.

I was not impressed. They will wonder why their kid is on coke by 18.

I’m sure you know the type(s).

My point is, my Wife, even if we had 3 nannies and twelve million bucks, would never leave our kid with someone else all day to socialize at Starbucks. Much less to go to a job all day.

We have a friend in Western Europe, we met her and went on a castle tour last year. I came out of the bathroom to hear this friend explaining to my Wife her take on feminism and why it is so great. “I don’t need a ring to make me happy,” she said, all the while, staring at my Wife’s wedding ring and then later, between sobs, explaining that Deter, her “boyfriend,” won’t commit, doesn’t want kids, etc.

This same Woman, told me, on a visit I had with her in 2008, that she “definitely” wanted children. And now, because Deter doesn’t want kids, she not only accepts this fate but uses her “sense of feminism” to justify it.

Today I heard on the radio an advertisement for a “habitat for humanity” style program wherein women alone are building houses because, “They don’t need Men.” They interviewed the founder and she said, “I want women to know how to use a hammer and a screwdriver so that they won’t ever be dependent on a Man.”

That is so wrong.

Why shouldn’t a woman be dependent on a Man? I’m dependent on my Wife. I can’t breastfeed the kid. I can’t give birth. She has much better nurturing skills. The flip side to this commercial would be an advert for Men to use a surrogate, hire a nanny, don’t be dependent on a woman.

Feminism teaches women that there is something to fear in trusting and depending on a Man. If my daughter wants to know how to change the oil, I’ll show her. If she doesn’t, I’ll make sure my Wife instructs her on how to find a Man who can.

Good discussion, folks.
Do y’all know what the problem is?;)
I keep saying that the dream of EVERY North American female is to sell herself to the highest male bidder on a dating market. Frank is referring to the upper 10% males in his reply thus all those males are the target for all the females around dreaming about a man with a lot of money and status in the society!
Frank’s remark is irrelevant since that 10% of the upper class males can get all the women they want while all the women around them dream to date them. But what about the ever desperate and sex hungry 90% of average American/Canadian males who go sexless for years (unless they want to pay for a hooker) and never stand even a remote chance to get into a meaningful relationship? WHAT ABOUT THEM, folks?
These males should listen to what I’m saying and just leave North America behind for good. Just imagine how Canada or USA would look like if millions of males just leave!!!
Of course 10% of wealthy males with high status in the society will never complain about the lack of female attention but they are by no means a clear indicator of a real state of things in North American dating.

Interesting point…but why risk (the 50 percent plus chance of legal and social rape) divorce, public accusations of spousal/child abuse, alimony, and child support with a western woman?
After that your left with the following options:
– Suicide
– Food, alcohol, and drug abuse
– Murdering the ex and then suicide
– Bending over and grabbing your ankles (paying the alimony and child support)
– Bending over in the jail shower (for not paying the alimony and child support…or the false accusation of child abuse)
No thanks! I’ll skip all that BS and just get a traditional foreign wife with all the perks.

@Seeker, your comment is exactly the kind I am referring to in the first paragraph of note above. You’re saying that a divorced man’s life options are suicide, drug abuse, murder, and abuse in a jail cell.
This is utter nonsense. For your sake, I hope this is unintended hyperbole and not what you actually believe. I really wish people would self-censor the stupidity out of their comments before they hit the “Post” button.

Why so depressive, Seeker?
Life ain’t that bad after all;)
Males still have control over their destiny and they are free to act the way they want without complying with what the mainstream wants them to do!
Forget your list;)
Every days hundreds of planes leave for Europe from any major North American airport hub with 14 hours being the max distance in case you’re flying from the Pacific Coast.
Mere 14 hours separate those desperate males from paradise called Russia, Ukraine or Belarus!
Why not just leave North America behind for good and start a new life somewhere else??

Hey FormerCanadian!
Thanks for the reply. The point of the last post was not to be depressive but to illustrate what really does happen to men in this country (and the west) when they do not consider their options ahead of time. Suicide, substance abuse, men going to jail for not paying alimony, etc. does occur – too many people are sticking their head in the sand when the facts are right in front of them. This site’s is Western Women Suck – My search for a foreign bride not Western Women Are Great – My search for a domestic bride, most of the men visiting this site are not interested in marrying a western woman. I am not married nor am I divorced and I have no interest in marrying a western woman because that is my preference. I will avoid the list by not marrying a western woman.

Seeker, I did perfectly understand your message;)
But again, western MALES are at fault for allowing all this to happen to them!! Stop being tolerant, politically correct robots and slaves, man up and finally dare to stand up and be counted and to lead by example.
It’s easy to opt for suicide, heavy drinking, drugs etc, but it takes guts and inner strength to lead by example and dare to differ from the rest of sheeple around you.
I do understand that most visitors of this site are in search of a foreign bride. What I’m trying to emphasize is the fact that a lot of foreign women turn into American ones after having resided in America/Canada for mere 6 to 8 months.
Thus my recommendation to leave North America behind for good and settle overseas. Canada and USA are doomed.

Former Canadian, I fully understand your point but most men will not believe it until the damage (in their lives) is done. Yes, men are to blame for complying with the pc status quo, that’s why in the end each man should save himself, and only help those that are willing to help themselves. All the sheep can’t be saved from the butcher.

@ Brian
And why is it so damn hard for an American male to leave North America behind for good? ;)

@Seeker
Well, if most males will not believe it until the damage is already inflicted then they FULLY DESERVE IT! And I ain’t got no pity for them and their fates, their lives and their families.
I ain’t trying to save all the sheep from the butcher and most of them will in fact get slaughtered by the butcher called society and mainstream, I’m just trying to show that it is possible to live a life outside of North America and grass is indeed greener on the other side of the pond.

Again, I think we’re circling around the same few points here. You refer to the kind of women who say “I want women to know how to use a hammer and a screwdriver so that they won’t ever be dependent on a Man.” (Just pasted that from your note). We both agree that that kind of ideology is toxic. It’s an angry version of feminism that does more harm than good. You won’t catch me defending it.

That a large proportion of the men dating EE women are wealthy, but divorced, doesn’t surprise me. I neglected to consider the divorced male contingent when I wrote my comment, but it makes total sense that someone burned by an American-style marriage (if I can now paint with a broad brush myself) would go looking for a alternative experience for round 2.

Another thing I neglected to consider was that it’s not just wealthy men who have the world tilted in their favor in the area of love, but particularly attractive men as well. I mean, a well-groomed, fit firefighter might only make $75K/yr, but he’d clean up in the dating pool. Wealth and looks are both currency in the dating market.

But then, so it is for women as well. The discussion on this site devotes an awful lot of attention to finding attractive women. It is with somewhat less fervor that people express their desire for warm, nurturing women. Those points are made, to be sure, with regularity, but for many (most?) on this site, external beauty is a minimum qualifying attribute – internal qualities seem to be considered among a subset of women who are physically attractive first.

Is it possible that we, men, are guilty of a similar crime to the one we charge women with? We are also (many of us, not all of us) judging women on qualities they have only partial control over.

Hopefully you are still around so you can see this response to your 4 Dec 15 blog comment.

I don’t want to confront your points, because you sound a bit more open minded than some previous comments you have made. Instead, I just want to address your points.

You could be right that the larger proportion of western men are divorced and have hefty bank accounts. I would even add to your comment and say that many of these men think that because of their hefty bank account, can literally just fly to Kiev and have supermodels waiting outside to take them home. Some men that go to Ukraine are in fantasy land, thinking that on a one week romance tour, a 22 year old darling will just curl up in his arms, and say, “take me away from here.” Well, you can thank all the marketing pros in Dream Connections, Anastasia Date, Russianbrides etc, for that flippant type of thinking.

Your next subject was point blank stereotypical, in regards that “this site devotes an awful lot of attention to finding attractive women.” HELL YEAH man! What do you THINK? Ukraine is an absolute amazing, unbelievable sight of gorgeous, gorgeous ladies. It’s a constant and daily parade of the most incredible, elegant, sexy, natural, God blessed beauties that these ladies give to our eyes. Obviously you have never been there, or you are legally blind.

And I have a close friend who is legally blind and has been to Ukraine. Which leads me to the follow up. Not only are these women beyond blessedly gorgeous and unbelievable, but they have hearts that would warm the most frozen or pained souls. How in fkg hell is that a bad combination? Beauty, warmth, graciousness, strong family ties, loyalty, intelligence, educated. Look I could go on, but you will never believe me. The bubble you live in is just too thick to pop. By the way, did I say Ukrainian woman are frkg BEAUTIFUL?

In my blogs, do I go on and on about their beauty? NO. I talk a lot about the warmth and nurturing of my wife.

So, with me Frank, you don’t have a leg to stand on. I break every one of your rules. My wife is 25 years younger than me. She’s a lawyer. She’s model raging beautiful. She gives me intimacy anytime I want. We are dirt poor, living on one income. And she loves being with our daughter, all day, everyday. She doesn’t whine, nag, has mood swings, is depressed, and nor is she homesick. Nor does she need a support group, Zoloft, or a best friend to get through her day. She does her own nails, better than a nail salon. She sews, mends all of our clothes. We shop at a thrift store, or second hand. She’s happy every single day, makes my breakfast, my lunch for work, and a hot dinner when I come home.

Yup, buddy, I ain’t blowing smoke up your ass. It’s 100%, Grade A, truth. But, I earned it. I knew in my heart, that this type of lady was in Ukraine. That’s why, over 3+ years ago, I sold my home, my car, terminated my job, and moved to Ukraine. Yup, to someone like you, it was a crazy idea. But, for me, it was the best damn decision I’ve ever made, because I found gold at the end of the rainbow. And so has Scott, FC and probably a dozen more that read this site.

Your paintbrush has to be really broad to paint over myself and the others I just mentioned. Finding your other half in EE can be done. The question is: Do you (rhetorical you) have the balls to do it?

Frank, With really no help or assistance from the US Embassy, I am in the middle of sell off all my “things” (keeping one – Motorcycle) and moving my butt out of the US.

Until, you have witnessed a real true lady there, you cannot imagine. She will wake before I go to sleep, just to wish me sweet dreams. She will message me during her day to wish me a good morning and to have a good day. She comes home and tells me about her day. She asked me how my day is going. She cooks her lunch for the next day, takes a bath and readies her cloths for the work. She is always asking me what I have eaten or if I have eaten. Tells me every other sentence how much she misses me and wants me there now.

The list goes on and on, including pictures everyday of what she is wearing. I wish that I could post her picture, so the doubting Thomas’s out there could flip at a 39 year old lady, that looks 25, fit and 100% a lady. She has real hobby’s, she loves doing. She makes cloths for people in her cities. She finds time to help feed the elderly. And not one, not one time has she ever complained about one thing.

You will not find a woman like this in the western world period. I have tried, gave up and moved on. Life is far too short for garbage. Live now, make memories and live for the moments you are here.

Pack your things and just go there. Life is a challenge enough, find a good woman to be there with you till the end.

Where did this all start to where it makes national news in the Washington Post? Thank you feminism movement for leaving your children in “low quality” day care centers, for putting your material things before your children. Look at this article and see where America has come from and with your own eyes, you can see the withering values of each generation.

Not so with a Ukrainian woman. My family and I would be considered “living in poverty” based on our income. One paycheck, one income. But, my wife isn’t complaining that she can’t buy a new dress every week, or new shoes every month. We go out to eat about twice a month. But, guess what, going to dinner is a treat. Taking walks, playing frisbee is free and fun. The most important thing, our daughter is getting 24/7 biological parental care from two parents.

This “single mother” status is the fault of who? The current trend of these latest generations: No values, no commitment, hooking up, Tinder, f++k buddies – call it whatever you want. It all spells destruction of the family unit and the fact that this ship may not ever be able to turn around.

However, there is one ship that still sails for those that believe in having a lifetime commitment. And the odds that this will work for you are much more in your favor, than trying to find a western woman. Its called getting your butt on a plane to EE.

Shit, man, I couldn’t agree more on: “But, guess what, going to dinner is a treat. Taking walks, playing frisbee is free and fun. The most important thing, our daughter is getting 24/7 biological parental care from two parents.”

Great review Rodney,
The WP article never addressed the real issue. It just focused on the never-ending desires of the modern woman.
But…
What’s best for the baby?
What’s best for the family?
What’s best for the community and society; if it is worth saving?
You answered that question.
Best wishes to you and your family!

After reading your latest blog entry, I’ve come to realize you’ve been our “sleeper!” I remember you writing from Kiev during November, and now here you are making your plans to move to Ukraine. My congratulations to you on finding such a sweet and wonderful lady. I can tell from your words, that you’ve found the kind of lady that we talk about here.

If you ever have any questions about logistical, administrative, or cultural subjects, that could help you with your move, just reach out and ask. I’ll be glad to answer as best I can.

So, tell us, if you’d like. How did you meet your fiance? By chance? Introduction? How long before you “knew?” Planning a wedding in Ukraine (recommend!)?

Ironically, just last night I asked my wife when she knew she loved me. Her answer: the day she moved into my apartment. We had met about a month prior through an introduction. After several fun dates, I asked her to spend New Year’s with me. She agreed and suggested we go to the Carpathian Mountains. We did and spent a week in the beauty of western Ukraine. I personally, fell in love with her then. So when we went back to our home city, I asked her to move in with me. She said yes, and we’ve been together ever since.

She told me that just by the mere act of moving in with me, was the sign to herself that she knew she loved, trusted me and felt safe with me.

I remember back then, that she’d go to Aerobics with her just as beautiful girlfriend. Here were a couple of single 29 year olds, keeping their bodies fit. I was still under the “feminist” crack of the whip thinking, and was expecting for her to say to me, “Oh, I am going out to the nightclubs with my girlfriends.”

I even prematurely had asked her this, thanks to American women in my past who had continually done that. I never felt happy waiting up all night for my girlfriend (U.S.) to return home. I knew she’d come home drunk and then have to hear the stories of the guys hitting on her and blah, blah, blah.

This time when I asked my then Ukrainian girlfriend, I kind of winced expecting the answer to be like an American. You won’t believe what she said, because it put me on a path of trust, love and amazement. She said, “why would I go out with my girlfriends? You are my family now and I will be with you.” Well…., drop my jaw and pick up it up off the ground! Would an American woman ever say that? NO. Why? Because they’re selfish, self-serving, inconsiderate piglets. My Ukrainian girlfriend, not even my fiance or wife yet, had already put me in a higher place of respect than any of my past relationships. I came first to her (along with her family of course), and she proved it, not just “said” it.

Later, I found that its a kind of hierarchy. Yes, family is important to them, but her husband and child holds the highest rung on the ladder. That’s why my wife could move to Germany and not feel guilty or bad leaving her mom, dad and family. She was going to live with her husband and expecting baby.

I am first with my wife. Perhaps its this amazing place where I feel completely loved, secure and confident, which makes me stronger, more ambitious, and loving her more each passing day.

If you have this self-serving, give me-give me, want-want- want and what- have- you- done- for- me- lately, American chick, then perhaps that’s why the American dating (do they even date any more?) and relationship culture has become obscure and demented.

I’m not a social scientist and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that relationships are complex and convoluted (in America). But, from my point of view, and now perhaps Bryan, FC, Scott, Paul and others, I can see that life is so much easier, fun and fulfilling, when the husband and wife are “naturally” doing their duties and supporting roles.

One of the first steps is to remove the barriers called feminism, and find a woman who is “feminine.” Big difference fella’s. Get your butt on a plane to EE and say good-bye to feminism and hello femininity and family.

The lessons are slowly paying off :) Not Russian, but Ukrainian language lessons.

Learning the language was something, I kept quiet from her, wanting to give her a surprise. It did surprise her… let me tell you.

I was on business in Romania, back in July 2015. Most of the people that work for the company are from Ukraine. They kept telling me how beautiful everything was there. How nice the people are. First trip was to Odessa. Took a train from Bucharest to Odessa. That was interesting, coming from a place were the train is a thing of the past. But it works there and was not bad.. slow, but not bad.

That was a great weekend, love Odessa. The last weekend, the girls in the office took me to Kyiv. Was a quick visit, but while in McD’s waiting in line for coffee, I was talking to myself and laughing. I could not read the sign at all and had no idea what to order. When out of the corner, this lady ask me, if I needed help.

First thing in my head was “Holy Shit, she is gorgeous”. I will be honest there, but then, she followed me over to the little seating area, sat down and started asking me questions. Told me she like practicing her English.

Only thing that was going on in my head was, what does she want. Very sad on my part, but look how we have been programmed.

After about 2.5 hours of talking, her not asking for anything. I relaxed some. We exchanged numbers and emails addresses. I explained that I was just visiting, but would like to see her again. That was interesting, because I did not know honestly what I was doing asking a lady in Ukraine for her number. But something was different.

One few months went by, emails at first, then Skype. One day while talking on Skype, I asked her to look at her phone. I called her and that was what changed things.

I guess, me taking the time to call her on the phone made a impression on her. Funny, thing was, she kept trying to get off, because “this cost a lot of money”.

Hope she never sees this, but the worst thoughts ran through my head. I had met a lady here in Marietta from Ukraine and another from Russia. Both single, nice, but something not right. So, it appeared to me, these 2 women married, just to get a visa/green card. I was starting to think the same about Yarina. The US male was in full force and almost turned tale. But, I listened to her, really listened. She did not want to come here, not unless I wanted her to come. We talked about this and I could tell, her interest was not coming to the US. She loves her country, no matter the problems.

I went back in September for a few more weeks of training. Took a week and traveled to Kyiv. Rented a flat near the city center. and for one week, she took me all around the city.

The last week of October came around and I was back in Romania training more. This time, I took the whole month of November off. Rented another flat. She was so worried about her having to work and not being able to spend time with me everyday. She later told me, she was worried some other Lady would get me. I honestly thought she was joking, but she was serious. After many talks on this subject, I get it now.

She showed me all over Kyiv. I must have walked more in a month, than I had in years back home. She cooked me real Ukrainian food. Took me to some amazing places.

I tried to blank my mind to everything that had been drilled into my head living in the US and dealing with the monsters here. I watched and listened to her. She showed me pictures of her mama and tato(father). Pictures of her sister, her as a baby. She was showing me her world. Not until the last week of my visit, while walking to Saint Andrews Church, we were walking up the hill to the church. She took my arm and I think I melted right there. I understood what this meant to her.

That month together, showed me things I had never seen in a woman in the US. It is hard to explain, unless you have seen this for yourself. To have a woman be concerned about how much things cost, shopping for the better deals, dressing nice, taking care of herself. Caring about me, making sure I am taking care of myself. Caring and honest about this.

I could go on and on, but Scott, FC and you know what I am talking about.

Making this move is something new. Still need to figure out the apartment thing. Where to live, then a job for me. Figure like FC said, I could teach English to start. My background is Macintosh/Apple Engineering and training people from around the globe for my company on supporting Mac’s for our Developers. Just trying to keep myself from going stir crazy.

FC has been helpful, but any additional information about resident permit and work permit would be great. Like I told FC, the US Embassy and State Department have been worthless. And I have read so much, everything tells a different story and when I leave, not coming back unless we come to visit.

We will be going to see her parents, so I can speak with her father :) But they live in Luhansk. I know, going to be interesting getting there.

Bryan, I can definitely help you with everything including Residence and Work permit when you make it to Ukraine, no problem. I’ve done it before for other folks and know which steps to take;)
Please talk to me IF you decide to go to Lugansk. This trip may be very tricky and I have to check something before even recommending you to go there.

Wonderful story, thank you for sharing. From your writings, I’d say you found your gem.

Our home is in south Ukraine, outside of Nikolaev. We moved away over a year ago to escape the creeping war and internal refugees that were starting to be problematic. Checkpoints outside of the big cities, including Odessa, were eye opening with sandbagged bunkers, armored personnel carriers, machine gun nests… all pointing east, in the direction from an eastern attack. I’ve been in two combat zones, so it brought up some bad memories for me.

I didn’t have any resident or work permits. I would leave the country every 90 days, so I could get a stamp when I came back. This is still illegal, because the rules state, you can stay in Ukraine for 90 days within a 180 day period. Therefore, each 90 days, although I returned some days later, put me in violation. After this became cumulative, I was getting fined $100 as I left Ukraine. I was able to talk my way out of 3 fines, showing my Ukrainian marriage certificate or rental agreement. Kiev is the worst, as far as enforcing (airport). That’s why I went by ground (train or bus), but sometimes had to go through Kiev due to time constraints.

Coming back by train through Hungary, the Ukr Customs chick busted my balls pretty hard because I was in violation of the 90 within 180 day rule. She guaranteed I’d be fined when I left Ukraine. Sure enough, on my last trip out, as I was leaving for Germany, the Kiev Customs folks took me into their office and hit me with the fine. I tried and tried to talk my way out, but they’d have nothing to do with my appeals or paperwork. They were ladies in uniform, and were friendly about my situation. Not nasty at all.

With your background in IT (?), you may be able to find a job in Kiev, teaching IT. Kiev students have become quite fluent in English. I’d definitely be trying there. My good friend in Ukraine is in IT, working for a UK company. Very talented folks there in Ukraine.

Quickly going back to that border stamp in your passport. I noticed when we were registering to be married, the ZAGS (civil, justice), were checking to ensure I was legally allowed to be in Ukraine (my stamp was within 90 days). Thought you should know in case you want to be married in Ukraine (which I highly recommend. They know how to throw a wedding!).

Good thing FC knows how to do the Resident Permit thing. I couldn’t get it either. I contacted the Ukr Embassy in San Francisco and they said I had to apply for it outside of Ukraine, and it would take about 3 weeks to receive.

FC, if we ever decide to move back, I’ll need your help. I need to avoid the fines!

Kiev is expensive at any time of the year whereas Odessa is expensive in summer but relatively affordable in spring, winter or fall. You’ve had a nice place in Kiev, very centrally located. Give me time until tomorrow and I’ll try and find something for you in Odessa since I know the city really well.

Ah, that’s right. Its a Family Visa, right? I believe I used the wrong term. Here in Germany, we have Resident Permits, not extended visas. Other way around.

Either way, the S.F. embassy sent me a form that I had to fill out, but I had to be in CA, to receive it (family visa).

I tried and tried thru US Embassy in Kiev, or getting info through local civil. I got nowhere. I was in CA for 2 weeks, so it wasn’t long enough to do the paperwork. Since we’re in Germany now, haven’t had to worry about it, but just trying to help out Brian with my meek knowledge and experiences.

US Embassy will not be able to help you in no way. They can provide general assistance to Americans abroad, but they are in no position to issue Ukrainian visas.
I honestly doubt that even Ukrainian embassies can be of any help since all this shit is usually done here on the spot without any 3rd party being involved.

Just hard to believe, our Embassy nor the Ukraine Embassy here in the US, could tell me nothing. Just or the run around. US Embassy sent me a form, but that was for employment at the Embassy. Will keep to myself the words that went through my head.

In states in the form, that a resident permit should be attached to the form, with a copy of my passport. What idiots, I was asking how to get a permit,
Love Germany. Grandfather lives about 75km south of Frankfurt.

Well, WHAT do you expect from the embassy folks?;)) They get their through the Affirmative Action, quota hiring, political correctness, tolerance, multiculturalism, ass licking and family connections. Ever heard about 3rd or 4th generation diplomats?
Do they care about actually helping? Nope. They just do not give a shit.

Dossenheim. He moved back to Germany many years ago. He told me the US he came too, was no longer the same place it was. He was tired of the garbage, so he just moved.

I do not blame him at all. I watch my 17 year old daughter and see who she is just like her mother. All the things, I tried to do, but fighting a lazy mother, lazy grandmother, then having her aunt make a statement about marriage to her… She is lost, sad, honestly very sad, that I was powerless to stop the madness.

The statement – Marry the first time for money. Have a kid, divorce him, take half his money and then marry for love.

Here is what is wrong with western society. The really sad part is my daughter with repeat this and laugh, but the thought is already in her head as something normal.

Correct! That’s exactly the attitude of an overwhelming majority of western females. Their ONLY goal is to sell themselves to the highest male bidder on a dating market and they ONLY care about money and status on the society!!! No other human qualities do NOT matter!!!

” I fit somewhere in the transgender spectrum. I just don’t fit the gender binary: I don’t think of myself as being either man or woman. Although I tend to identify less as male and much more as female.”

MALES, if you still have ANY dignity left, just buy that damn plane ticket and get the hell out of North America!! And the sooner the better!!!

Great video that just about sums it up!
I’m sure that nice young American lady is off the market….they don’t stay single for long.
These western feminazis only harass the people they know who will take their shit. At the first sign of aggression or resistance they cry victim.
They wouldn’t dare press their agenda in a place — one of those super masculine places in the world — they know social shunning (best) and physical violence and death (worst) are very real possibilities.
The classic double standard.