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Im not saying anyone should beat up on anyone, im just asking why anyone would just "take ukemi" if nothing happened?

Perhaps it's more of a sympathetic movement exercise then?
On proper trigger control (http://http://www.rifleshootermag.co...05/index1.html): "The thumb and index finger work as a team, and this teamwork is in use countless times in a day (pick up a coin to see it). Technically, it's called "sympathetic movement," which means that when one moves, the other is ingrained to move also."
This last part seems to fit. Of course it can be either bad or good, but considering the idea of harmonizing with other people's movements, maybe there's some value to it. I've personally found sympathetic movement to be pretty useful.

I think once you see aikido as communication, you'll find that this demonstration was rather impressive on everyone's part... from the Sensei's ability to join with his ukes and draw out their highest level of respect, to uke's sincerity in accepting what nage has to offer.

Aikido shares many aspects with other martial arts, but it's focus on "leading" or "guiding" or "michibiki" is one thing that really sets it apart.

When I asked Imaizumi Sensei, who took ukemi for O'Sensei towards the end of his life, what he remembered about the great old man's technique, he said (in his way) "he had a lot of energy and his ability to guide was most impressive". In this film the same holds true.

If you don't like "theatrics" you're in the wrong game. Try out for the local MMA team and stop hating.

Im not saying anyone should beat up on anyone, im just asking why anyone would just "take ukemi" if nothing happened?

This is really the wrong question... it doesn't allow for new learning because it assumes that you already understand what is going on. A better question would be "what is going on that I don't understand that produces that ukemi?"

I have seen the same type of energy work done by someone like Michael Ryabko of the Systema. If you simply observe it, it looks fake. It looks fake because we don't have a mental paradigm which includes that type of work. It really needs to be felt

I will say that "aiki" is about using the various sensory inputs, including the intuition to move the mind. Most people's experience of excellent Aikido is limited largely to the sense of touch with quite a bit of vision input.It starts to get really interesting when someone is good enough to start communicating using your intuition (consciousness).

It make a sort of sense because it is certainly the mind which moves the body. If one can move the partner's mind, he will them move his body. My still somewhat limited understanding of how this works bears this out. I have both had technique done to me on this level and I have also worked a bit on this type of thing myself.

Anyway, there is so much stuff out there that simply is outside of my current comprehension that I keep an open mind until I can experience it myself.

I think that Watanabe's work is understandable but he has his uke's acting as amplifiers for the energy he puts out. I have taken ukemi for him and he quite able to hurl me around the mat but he wasn't doing energy projections at ten feet either. It's one thing to train oneself and ones students to develop a high level of sensitivity but it's quite another to train them to be "reactive". "Fudoshin" is about having that highly developed "sensitivity" but having no "reactivity".

Just looking at the film clips, I would say that Abe Sensei's work was more subtle. Watanabe is shooting for the same thing but isn't there. Abe Sensei's stuff is more interesting. I'd love to have had the experience of taking some ukemi from him... that's the real test.

I would simply say that all of the really interesting stuff out there is the stuff you don't understand. I have so may friends who form all sorts of opinions about styles and teachers with whom they have absolutely no direct experience. Most of them have stopped getting any better. They are stuck because their seeking is restricted by their understanding. As far as I am concerned, the least interesting stuff to work on is what is already understood. I think folks should work more outside their comfort levels.

theyre not connecting at all. Nage is waving his hands around and uke is just jumping.

Er uh... you should be looking for connectedness in Abe, not "to" anything or anyone in particular.
And Abe is definitely connected... even if his Uke's are being dive bunnies a bit much in the vids.

Same stuff, different perspective:http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA
Anyone that can do these skills could probably see that what this old dude in the vid is doing is genuine. Anyone else would probably call "faKeSoRZ!"

Does it mean he can pwn a young guy rushing at him like a screaming banshee? Probably not.
But how many times does it have to be reiterated that having these skills, and putting them to use in fighting, are two different things

Woohoo! I got one!
...now I wish I had something better than a pre-schooler's vocabulary in Japanese.
Does he explain the purpose of the no-touch stuff that went on? What is your take on them?

Nah, he's pretty vague about the no-touch stuff. He just says it's "ki" and lets it go at that. Then again, its a tv show produced for entertainment value, and he's probably well aware of that fact, which is why he doesn't go any further.

The no touch stuff is stuff I won't "touch."
It's an interesting study that's got its place with study of the fascia etc, but as far as they relate martially...I'd say it's a big "???."
Besides, just developing "normal" jin/ki/kokyu stuff is hard enough as it is without worrying about how much of the woo woo crap is psychological or physical ^^;

My issue with this stuff is there is no way to really explain what value there is to it. You either get hands on with it, or you don't. As you say, the martial value is a question mark, other than maybe the proper sensitivity can help you learn to read your opponent.

And the bunny diving doesn't help the perception.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

I will say that "aiki" is about using the various sensory inputs, including the intuition to move the mind. Most people's experience of excellent Aikido is limited largely to the sense of touch with quite a bit of vision input.It starts to get really interesting when someone is good enough to start communicating using your intuition (consciousness).
................
I would simply say that all of the really interesting stuff out there is the stuff you don't understand. I have so may friends who form all sorts of opinions about styles and teachers with whom they have absolutely no direct experience. Most of them have stopped getting any better. They are stuck because their seeking is restricted by their understanding. As far as I am concerned, the least interesting stuff to work on is what is already understood. I think folks should work more outside their comfort levels.

Communication is a key word. A specific question I asked Ushiro sensei about his "stopping people in their tracks" was what if the attacker was on drugs or enraged and not seeing anything. Someone like that isn't really taking in input so of course reaching them through communication doesn't happen. And in that case it's a matter of grasping how much input/communication is possible with that person in conjunction with how to deal with that person physically. (Several times Ushiro sensei said he didn't do anything to the attacker because he would have had to harm him/her. Despite this sounding like "Drink my kool-aid" I think he was talking about the attacker (seminar participant) charging in with tunnel vision.)

Along the lines of communication, in teaching a beginner I myself would ask them just to fall for me ie "take my word for it". I'm asking them to initially behave as if they're perceiving something, then perhaps later they're more "set up" to perceive it. Of course this doesn't jive with a "prove it to me" student attitude. And of course the danger is the instructor deluding him/herself that he/she is sending out those outputs for the student to perceive when in fact they may be lacking or nonexistent. How to police oneself...

As you say, the martial value is a question mark, other than maybe the proper sensitivity can help you learn to read your opponent.

Hi Ron,
I think that people generally misunderstand what is going on in this type of practice. So many folks in Aikido have an empty hand mentality, and one that isn't based on very deep empty hand skill at that.

This stuff came from weapons training originally. Once one is past the basics in sword for instance, it's really all about connection. If you attack when the opponent isn't open, you are dead. It's not a matter of being tough enough to take a punch, or being grounded enough to resist a throw... it's an inch and a half deep touch to the heart, a slice to the throat, a quick cut that lops off a hand...

Since very few folks train with anyone who is capable of single blow fight finishing strikes, the need for this type of sensitivity isn't there. The ability to take a hit becomes important. You can trade blows as long as you protect the most vulnerable targets. You can stop a technique because the opponent will only hit you rather than cut or stab you with a blade.

I think what you are seeing in this type of practice is sensitivity work for it's own sake. The nage is "communicating" with his partner, letting him know that the space is already taken, the uke takes ukemi as he feels the openings shift and close. Whereas this type of sensitivity has a central place in certain types of martial application, especially deadly force encounters, this type of practice is no more "applied" than normal Aikido Kihon Waza is "applied".

From the standpoint of why one would train that way... well, it much depends on why one is training in the first place. As is evident from many of the posts one sees here, there is a lot of focus in many people's practice on self defense and fighting. Most people's understanding of what they are doing is thoroughly physical / mechanical. If, however, one does a lot of sword work, this level of connectivity makes perfect sense.

If one trains with the Systema folks, they work to develop this type of sensitivity as well and their training methodology isn't all that different from what Abe Sensei is doing... However, since the focus of Systema can be a bit more practically oriented than Aikido, they take it one step further. They also train in not giving away any energetic signals that the opponent can read. They practice striking with no intention, making it extremely difficult to feel it coming. Ushiro Sensei also talks about the same thing...

Anyway, to my way of thinking, Aikido folks need to do a lot of work learning how to communicate on this level before we are ready to talk about how to be deceptive with ones communications. That's why this stuff looks so exaggerated... in a sense, it is. Abe is really blasting his attention out there for the uke to feel. It's not a subtle kind of touch, he is really projecting... He isn't trying to hide anything from the uke, rather he is putting it out there quite clearly and the uke moves his body as the energy seems to dictate. It's not about resisting, it's not about fighting; it's about really letting go of ones own tension so that one can really receive what is being projected.

if one wants to talk about the benefits of training for ones daily life, I strongly suspect that this type of practice develops more skills that can be used to make ones life better than being un-throwable or having a one punch knockout, both skills that are great for fighting but have limited applicability any other time in ones life.

Hi Ron,
I think that people generally misunderstand what is going on in this type of practice. So many folks in Aikido have an empty hand mentality, and one that isn't based on very deep empty hand skill at that.

This stuff came from weapons training originally. Once one is past the basics in sword for instance, it's really all about connection. If you attack when the opponent isn't open, you are dead. It's not a matter of being tough enough to take a punch, or being grounded enough to resist a throw... it's an inch and a half deep touch to the heart, a slice to the throat, a quick cut that lops off a hand...

Since very few folks train with anyone who is capable of single blow fight finishing strikes, the need for this type of sensitivity isn't there. The ability to take a hit becomes important. You can trade blows as long as you protect the most vulnerable targets. You can stop a technique because the opponent will only hit you rather than cut or stab you with a blade.

I think what you are seeing in this type of practice is sensitivity work for it's own sake. The nage is "communicating" with his partner, letting him know that the space is already taken, the uke takes ukemi as he feels the openings shift and close. Whereas this type of sensitivity has a central place in certain types of martial application, especially deadly force encounters, this type of practice is no more "applied" than normal Aikido Kihon Waza is "applied".

From the standpoint of why one would train that way... well, it much depends on why one is training in the first place. As is evident from many of the posts one sees here, there is a lot of focus in many people's practice on self defense and fighting. Most people's understanding of what they are doing is thoroughly physical / mechanical. If, however, one does a lot of sword work, this level of connectivity makes perfect sense.

If one trains with the Systema folks, they work to develop this type of sensitivity as well and their training methodology isn't all that different from what Abe Sensei is doing... However, since the focus of Systema can be a bit more practically oriented than Aikido, they take it one step further. They also train in not giving away any energetic signals that the opponent can read. They practice striking with no intention, making it extremely difficult to feel it coming. Ushiro Sensei also talks about the same thing...

Anyway, to my way of thinking, Aikido folks need to do a lot of work learning how to communicate on this level before we are ready to talk about how to be deceptive with ones communications. That's why this stuff looks so exaggerated... in a sense, it is. Abe is really blasting his attention out there for the uke to feel. It's not a subtle kind of touch, he is really projecting... He isn't trying to hide anything from the uke, rather he is putting it out there quite clearly and the uke moves his body as the energy seems to dictate. It's not about resisting, it's not about fighting; it's about really letting go of ones own tension so that one can really receive what is being projected.

if one wants to talk about the benefits of training for ones daily life, I strongly suspect that this type of practice develops more skills that can be used to make ones life better than being un-throwable or having a one punch knockout, both skills that are great for fighting but have limited applicability any other time in ones life.

(Several times Ushiro sensei said he didn't do anything to the attacker because he would have had to harm him/her. Despite this sounding like "Drink my kool-aid" I think he was talking about the attacker (seminar participant) charging in with tunnel vision.)

Sometimes developing proper sensitivity is better done the hard way. Vladimir Vasiliev was working with a fellow at one seminar and moved as if to strike his partner. The energetic intention to create movement was there for anyone watching to see, yet his partner didn't react at all. So, on the next movement Vlad actually gave him a hit. Low and behold the next time he threw the same strike, the partner was moving.

This goes beyond the simple idea of negative reinforcement... it hurts if I stand still so I will move.... The pain involved with taking a hit of this type actually stimulates the nerves and begins to develop a body based sensitivity that allows one to feel a blow coming before it arrives. Since most of us in Aikido do not actually strike our partner's when they are unresponsive, it is more difficult to develop this type of sensitivity. I have seen Ushiro Sensei totally let an uke off the hook rather than hurt him and then the uke went away thinking that Ushiro Sensei hadn't been able to do anything to him. Everyone watching could see that the fellow was simply too full of tension, mental and physical, to perceive what Ushiro was putting out. The only option was to hit the guy and Ushiro chose not to.

I do not think that this type of training should be too difficult if the proper uke / nage relationship is trained. It just can't be some kind of competition... that won't work. But if both party's treat the training interaction as instructional and that their purpose is to facilitate their partner's learning, then I think it can be done properly.

This goes beyond the simple idea of negative reinforcement... it hurts if I stand still so I will move.... The pain involved with taking a hit of this type actually stimulates the nerves and begins to develop a body based sensitivity that allows one to feel a blow coming before it arrives. Since most of us in Aikido do not actually strike our partner's when they are unresponsive, it is more difficult to develop this type of sensitivity. I have seen Ushiro Sensei totally let an uke off the hook rather than hurt him and then the uke went away thinking that Ushiro Sensei hadn't been able to do anything to him. Everyone watching could see that the fellow was simply too full of tension, mental and physical, to perceive what Ushiro was putting out. The only option was to hit the guy and Ushiro chose not to.

This is a general statement and not aimed at Abe Sensei or any of the other folks already referenced in this thread...

The danger with this kind of 'shaping' training is it can lead to the kind of stuff you see with Dillman and the Kombat Ki folks, where their students have been hit so many times at critical places that pantomiming these impacts can result in real physical reactions (like passing out). Unfortunately, those kinds of real and dramatic results are only possible with those students who have been properly shaped for these demonstrations to work. In my opinion, that becomes the realm of the parlor trick. Yes there are dense people out there, who have trained out many of their natural self-preservation responses, but there are also those people out there who have trained *in* vulnerabilities and responses that did not exist before. If we're to study budo, then even if we're going to go along with the throw (something we all do for safety in some situations) then we still have to go into that with both sides of the encounter fully aware that we are making those compensations/assumptions AND be careful not to train those vulnerabilities to the point that they become detriments to our own martial ability.

If we're to study budo, then even if we're going to go along with the throw (something we all do for safety in some situations) then we still have to go into that with both sides of the encounter fully aware that we are making those compensations/assumptions AND be careful not to train those vulnerabilities to the point that they become detriments to our own martial ability.

Amen. Witness the massive growth of Aiki-Bunnies over the last 20 years.

I think the key point is the psychological structure of the training. In the Japanese/Aikido model we have the Neo-Confucian idea of a vertical hierarchy, as you have described. The beginner can't do "it" and the reason is because he/she can't understand "it." So the beginner must have "beginner's mind" and trust you as sempai, sensei as teacher, and Aikido as method.

Systema has a different structure. We practice "for real" but what is emphasized again and again is to really care about our partners, what Mr. Ryabko would probably call Christian love. His advice to beginners is to "be a good person." The primary idea behind practice is "non-destruction." My experience is that every long time Systema practitioner is someone who is very kind AND can hit you very hard. Both things seem to be necessary.

So in my thinking, to gain real ability in Aikido, adherence to the vertical teacher/student, sempai/kohai structure is necessary. In Systema, the development of compassion and empathy is essential.

I would simply say that all of the really interesting stuff out there is the stuff you don't understand. I have so may friends who form all sorts of opinions about styles and teachers with whom they have absolutely no direct experience. Most of them have stopped getting any better. They are stuck because their seeking is restricted by their understanding. As far as I am concerned, the least interesting stuff to work on is what is already understood. I think folks should work more outside their comfort levels.

Thank you Sensei Ledyard, to emphasize such an important aspect in our (all of us) aikido training. In my opinion, that's really a shortcut (or possibly the only road) in the DO to higher knowledge.

That is why I only mentioned the Watanabe Sensei's demo and didn't give any opinion, simply because of that: just didn't understand.

I am reserving my comments on the video and both what people think they are seeing in the video (irregardless of what Abe Sensei is saying in the video - think rocket science simplified for kindergarteners) and what is actually going on there. I will say this though...

As many of you know, I am about as far from Aiki-bunny as one could get, both as uke and nage. However, for many years I tried to be the "sensitive" uke for Abe Sensei because I wanted to feel what he was doing on many levels, including physically, with his breath and even his intention. Abe Sensei pointed out that I should be looking for these things, and I was. But I want to be very clear - If I ever even bent my knee to take ukemi and it was in any way disproportionate to exactly what he was doing or how he was throwing me, he would stop me mid-stride and have me correct my posture and start over. Abe Sensei is 5 feet tall and probably weighs less than a 100 pounds. Until I had been training with him for more than 10 years I could never move him, break his posture and certainly never throw him irregardless of anything I tried to do - and I tried it all. That is not to say what would have happened had I walked up behind him and hit him over the head with a chair... that is a story for another day.

I used to think all kinds of things about the sensitivity of the uke, and the importance of training with that in mind. I still feel that most focus way too much on throwing, and way to little on ukemi. I see it every day at every dojo. However, one thing is certain now, as it has been made clear to me by my own specific martial influences - it should really never matter what the uke is doing, how much he outweighs me, nor what skills he has as a martial artist or as an uke. If I can not control them completely and lift their feet off the ground in less than a split second and complete control where they go, how they land and with how much force, then I am only fooling myself into thinking that I have merely but introduced myself to what martial arts are really about. Me...? I have tested my teachers completely. I have tried to expose their weaknesses, knock them down, knock them out, catch them by surprise and resist their techniques at every level - all to no avail. This includes Abe Sensei, in his 90's. Had the results been different, I would have other teachers. Wouldn't you?

You are free to form whatever opinion you want of some made for TV special video clip on the internet. One thing is for sure though and that is when Abe Sensei wants to throw you, and I mean outside of the introductory level waza that 99% of the students receive 99% of the time, you will hit the ground and not be sure at all as to how you got there. It will most definitely not be because you threw yourself, either. On the rarest of occasions when Abe Sensei had me truly attack him, he threw me in a manner that, short of when I broke my car into four pieces, was more physical than anything I have ever experienced before or since.

If you do nothing other than read this thread and be open to the fact that there are people out there, Abe Sensei being one of them, the gentleman in the video that Rob John posted being another, who are at a level that is beyond what most people even understand as higher martial abilities and understandings, and it moves you in some fashion to even consider that there may be other ideas to embrace, then you will be one giant step closer to where it is that you are saying you are trying to get.

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 07-14-2008 at 05:56 PM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

You are free to form whatever opinion you want of some made for TV special video clip on the internet. One thing is for sure though and that is when Abe Sensei wants to throw you, and I mean outside of the introductory level waza that 99% of the students receive 99% of the time, you will hit the ground and not be sure at all as to how you got there. It will most definitely not be because you threw yourself, either. On the rarest of occasions when Abe Sensei had me truly attack him, he threw me in a manner that, short of when I broke my car into four pieces, was more physical than anything I have ever experienced before or since.

If you do nothing other than read this thread and be open to the fact that there are people out there, Abe Sensei being one of them, the gentleman in the video that Rob John posted being another, who are at a level that is beyond what most people even understand as higher martial abilities and understandings, and it moves you in some fashion to even consider that there may be other ideas to embrace, then you will be one giant step closer to where it is that you are saying you are trying to get.

.

Sean, Thanks for another of many good posts recently.
If I could re-write this post for myself, I would write in the names of Kato Sensei and Anno Sensei for Abe Sensei(since I haven't had the distinct pleasure). And I could say similar things about my training as Sensei Ravens has done. True,true,true!!!!!

I thought of a metaphor last night:
After one 'gets hit plays chicken' with oncoming traffic several times, one learns to intuit and turn the wheel a little sooner.

If you do nothing other than read this thread and be open to the fact that there are people out there, Abe Sensei being one of them, the gentleman in the video that Rob John posted being another, who are at a level that is beyond what most people even understand as higher martial abilities and understandings, and it moves you in some fashion to even consider that there may be other ideas to embrace, then you will be one giant step closer to where it is that you are saying you are trying to get..

To Shaun and Ron

I think that this video will do nothing but cause serious people to doubt. I think its worth noting that there are men of power who would NEVER allow the sort of things displayed in this video. Their control is through connection, or power release through contact. No cooperation is needed or asked. Why would he do this stuff?
This is nothing more than over exaggerated flinch response, coupled with ukemi skills. Not to take away from Mr. Abe. I am not addressing his purported skills. Let’s say they are everything claimed. Having power-has not one thing to do with ukes training to be sooo overly sensitive that they throw themselves through the air with "perceived" movement from him. It's not martially relevant in any way and the degree of sensitivity displayed by the uke? Will not get you even one step closer to power and aiki then if you never trained at all.

And why would you spend a ten year curve to increase your sensitivity to his movements -to be thrown? I would have imagined that 3 or 4 years out the training would have caused the opposite effect. Why didn't the sensitivity to his movements start to preclude, and make it far more difficult for most any attempt at throwing you.

Again I'm not making any comment about Abe sensei’s power at all. I am just offering that there is a distinction between having "it" at any level and "what" those guys are choosing to "do together." Which has not one thing to do with having...it.

Ron and Shaun
Since you both trained with him, can anyone state where an equal amount of time spent training structure, retained balance and intent would not be more beneficial then learning to dodge and throw yourself from a perceived hand signal?
Was his regular training like this? I have dealt with real power before. Never once did I consider throwing myself as an option. Was the whole video just one big goof? I heard and thought he was a more seriously skilled type.

Hi George
I was up late and missed reading your post explaining the practice. I guess its worse than I thought. I was hoping it was all a joke or some kind of singular-thought nutty-exhibition for the comic.

As a sensitivity drill -where are the benefits that you couldn't devise a better method for? Or would you adopt this in your school as well?
What if you stood there and kept your balance, and worked your way in to try and throw him? What would change? Does he have enough aiki to throw a retained balance, noncooperatve,( meaning no ukemi-destroyed) aiki trained man? Could he take the balance of someone playing ...him in the same manner? Would he respond to a superior trained power output by throwing himself and calling it good?

In my mind a more useful approach for sensitivity like that is to dodge perceived power ( if you can't neutralize it) while managing myself and fit into and dominate the space between his output, Either that or sensing his openings and powering right through the man. Hell, even displacing through positioning is a better option. Going negative and throwing myself seems like the stupidest thing a man could do.
Why on earth, would anyone choose to fall down as a response to power output?
Why not train to increasingly absorb it and stay ahead of it and redirect, neutralize, and reengage and so forth as a sensitivity Training drill? Wouldn't you think that dealing with and managing his force, neutralizing it and countering and throwing HIM seems the better option to throwing yourself on the ground as a "drill."

It's bad enough to see inept to marginally successful throws based off of volunteerism, and an ukemi-destroyed structure. Aerial throws as a response to input just seems to be a huge step backward. .

Can you tell me a single benefit to that type of training that you personally do not know a superior method to use?

If you think watching that vid is going to make your Aikido better you are barking up the wrong trree. There is something to be learned in being a super responsive uke, but you had better base what you learn on a more solid method, which I would not be surprised that they actually do normally. It looks more like a bit of a show for some kind of TV thing.

Rupert and Dan are 100% correct. I would even go further: junk is junk and that was, indeed, junk. A lot of people, Abe-sensei excluded, lose the martial aspect of aikido. This video does nothing to further our studies of the art, nor does it lend credibility to aikido. A sad display indeed, especially for someone who has been living in Japan and training in aikido as long as I have.

I trained with Abe Sensei for about two days in Iowa. We did nothing like what is in the video at that time.

As has been stated, there is some "goof" in the video...it was done for the "gamey" side of Japanese TV, and I think it should be taken as such.

As for any other comments, I've said what I have to say on this, and I'm pretty much done with it...people will decide for themselves. I'm happy with that. As for internal training as I am pursuing it...no, that has nothing to do with the video.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)