I have no first-hand experience of the NO mass. What I do know of it has been gathered through youtube and literature, and all of these encounters have left me cold and unaffected. Seems like it doesn't quite know what it wants to be: too liturgical for most protestants and too irreverent for traditionalists---the El Camino of liturgies. The Tridentine, on the other hand, looks truly awe-inspiring and absolutely gorgeous. I know which one I would go for if I professed Roman Catholicism. I really mean no offense to RCs, forgive me.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 03:53:18 AM by kevlev »

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From my youth have many passions warred against me, but do Thou Thyself defend and save me, O Saviour.

UUUUCHHHH! I've had plenty of occasions to attend Novus Ordo masses in predominantly RC South Texas (weddings, First Communions, etc..) and I can't recall one that I didn't cringe at, especially with the use of that horrible, insipid Gather hymnal. And don't get me started on the Communion buffet line with Eucharistic Ministers. There are so many things I love and respect about Roman Catholicism and wish East and West could overcome their schism, but not if it meant watering down our worship, practices or beliefs as I see in the Novus Ordo and modern Catholicism.

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On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

Technically, I'm not yet Orthodox. God willing, I will be received into the Church on Holy Saturday 2013.

I do have a bit of experience with the Novus Ordo Mass though. In the 24 months before becoming an Orthodox Catecheumen [March 2012], I attended daily Mass MON-FRI [more than 500 masses] at a small [35-seat] chapel in the residential house of a religious order. We met at 0730 to read the office of Matins [Orthros] in community and began Mass at 0800.

Each day there were approx ten priests, ten religious brothers and a regular group of 10-12 lay faithful [including myself]. The Mass itself is a brief [but by-the-book and reverently offered] Novus Ordo format. Prayers are read, rather than sung. There is a sermon every day and no priest offers Mass on consecutive days. The Eucharist is always distributed by an ordained priest. Priests and religious brothers in attendance often receive the consecrated Host in the hand. Lay faithful receive on the tongue. All drink from the Chalice.

The Novus Ordo Mass is what it is. There are a number of options which - if not kept in check by the priest - can turn it into a Ringling Brothers event. That's never happened "here" in the two years I attended regularly. The rector runs a tight ship and the priests take their part seriously For the glory of God.

For the record, the Roman Catholic Church delivered me directly to the doorstep of Orthodoxy.

I have no first-hand experience of the NO mass. What I do know of it has been gathered through youtube and literature, and all of these encounters have left me cold and unaffected. Seems like it doesn't quite know what it wants to be: too liturgical for most protestants and too irreverent for traditionalists---the El Camino of liturgies. The Tridentine, on the other hand, looks truly awe-inspiring and absolutely gorgeous. I know which one I would go for if I professed Roman Catholicism. I really mean no offense to RCs, forgive me.

Pretty much this. None of the "liturgy is stupid" crowd is particularly satisfied with a halfway liturgy. When we were discussing this in a class of mine everybody still preferred the rock concerts they give at the megachurch in town and complained about the NO being too formal(!).

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

99% of the liturgies I attended during my time in the RCC were Novus Ordo liturgies. I don't like them. Out of respect for the RCs here, I won't go into too much detail about how awful they are (as that can easily be answered by appeal to either the Eastern Catholic churches or the fact that "a properly celebrated N.O. mass can be just a reverent as anything else"; as though in the hundreds of masses I attended in several different places, said by many different priests, not one managed to ever properly celebrate it -- right). I'll just say that I much prefer this to anything like this. I am lucky in that the RC church I was received into was not quite as schlocky as you might imagine a Mass with plinky piano ruining everything to be, but that is par for the course in some other RC churches I had been to. Irreverent is the word, I suppose. I feel bad for RCs, when in their own history they have had beautiful, reverent, and traditional forms of worship like the Mozarabic, the Old Roman, the Gregorian of course, and even more, but today things like this absolute garbage (or if you prefer the "Eastern" spirituality of one of the non-Latin compatriots, this) is more often what people are offered. Lord have mercy!

Hahaha. I don't know...no universe that I want to live in, that's for sure. Did you get to the modern RC mass a bit further down in the post? It is also quite...special.

I'm sorry, any RCs who might read this. You'll have to excuse me for having a bit of fun with how terrible these things are. In reality it's not very funny; it is entirely unnecessary and gross, in fact, but hey...if you can't laugh about it, you'll just get depressed or angry or doing something crazy and impulsive like get fed up and inquire into Orthodoxy, right?

Hahaha. I don't know...no universe that I want to live in, that's for sure. Did you get to the modern RC mass a bit further down in the post? It is also quite...special.

I'm sorry, any RCs who might read this. You'll have to excuse me for having a bit of fun with how terrible these things are. In reality it's not very funny; it is entirely unnecessary and gross, in fact, but hey...if you can't laugh about it, you'll just get depressed or angry or doing something crazy and impulsive like get fed up and inquire into Orthodoxy, right?

Yes, I watched all of them. The Coptic liturgy was beautiful, of course.

I'm sorry, any RCs who might read this. You'll have to excuse me for having a bit of fun with how terrible these things are. In reality it's not very funny; it is entirely unnecessary and gross, in fact, but hey...if you can't laugh about it, you'll just get depressed or angry or doing something crazy and impulsive like get fed up and inquire into Orthodoxy, right?

If you go to the, uh...composer's website, you will see the following bio:

Quote from: Probably Stephen DeCesare's mother

Stephen DeCesare has proven to be one of those prolific composers whose compositions have been widely acclaimed by audiences and critics alike for their dramatic strength, passionate melodies and rich orchestrations. His works are receiving numerous performances and commissions all over the world.

On May 1st 2011, Stephen was honored by conducting his Mass of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA on a worldwide EWTN telecast for the beatification of John Paul II.

In addition to his work for the theater, Stephen is active in sacred and orchestral music. To date, Stephen has over 800 compositions in his compositional catalog.

Wow! Impressive, huh? He was honored to conduct his Mass on ETWN TV network. I'm really bummed that I missed it, actually. No word on whether or not he's available for children's parties, either.

If you go to the, uh...composer's website, you will see the following bio:

Quote from: [b

Probably Stephen DeCesare's mother[/b]]<<<LulzStephen DeCesare has proven to be one of those prolific composers whose compositions have been widely acclaimed by audiences and critics alike for their dramatic strength, passionate melodies and rich orchestrations. His works are receiving numerous performances and commissions all over the world.

On May 1st 2011, Stephen was honored by conducting his Mass of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA on a worldwide EWTN telecast for the beatification of John Paul II.

In addition to his work for the theater, Stephen is active in sacred and orchestral music. To date, Stephen has over 800 compositions in his compositional catalog.

Wow! Impressive, huh? He was honored to conduct his Mass on ETWN TV network. I'm really bummed that I missed it, actually. No word on whether or not he's available for children's parties, either.

LOL

Seriously though, I think we've all been waiting long enough for our churches to catch up to the profundity that was "Blues Clues". Brothers and sisters, DeCesare has arrived.

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From my youth have many passions warred against me, but do Thou Thyself defend and save me, O Saviour.

I don't think the Novus Ordo in itself is bad. It just came at a bad time when priest themselves are heavily influenced by Protestant faiths. They see that many of the people find Protestantism, especially those of the Evangelical variety, to be very appealing. In an effort to get people interested in Mass, they start doing these things. A lot of it is because people want them. It is the sorry state of our spirituality as a people when we have secularized so quickly that priests have to resort to drastic measures just to keep us interested.

I don't think the Novus Ordo in itself is bad. It just came at a bad time when priest themselves are heavily influenced by Protestant faiths. They see that many of the people find Protestantism, especially those of the Evangelical variety, to be very appealing. In an effort to get people interested in Mass, they start doing these things. A lot of it is because people want them. It is the sorry state of our spirituality as a people when we have secularized so quickly that priests have to resort to drastic measures just to keep us interested.

At St. Augustine Western Rite Parish in Colorado, Archimandrite John celebrates the Gregorian Latin Mass which is almost identical to the 1962 Tridentine Latin Mass.

There were some changes made, for example, the Nicene Creed has the "filioque" omitted.

Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?

To my knowledge, there are no WRO parishes which celebrate a variation of the NO Mass as it is a modern Protestantized liturgy.

Nevertheless, some WRO parishes appear to have a liturgy which is a modified Anglican form. Note: Some Anglicans do not consider themselves to be Protestants. When I attended the Mass at St. Michael's Antiochian Church in Whittier, that Mass was modified from the Anglicans. Again, if there are any members from St. Michaels perhaps they can enlighten us.

I'm not a "member," but I've visited St. Augustine and that parish has a good relationship with my home parish of Holy Transfiguration of Christ Cathedral in Denver (our icon writer has done some beautiful icons in their church, and parishioners from each of our churches visit each other often). But I don't have any more information than you've provided already; they do the Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory "by the book" down to the vestments, chants, acolytes, etc. except that it is in English save for the last Sunday of the month when everything is in Latin.

I don't think the Novus Ordo in itself is bad. It just came at a bad time when priest themselves are heavily influenced by Protestant faiths. They see that many of the people find Protestantism, especially those of the Evangelical variety, to be very appealing. In an effort to get people interested in Mass, they start doing these things. A lot of it is because people want them. It is the sorry state of our spirituality as a people when we have secularized so quickly that priests have to resort to drastic measures just to keep us interested.

The Novus Ordo was intentionally stripped of unambiguous and solid Catholic doctrine and language in order to make Protestants feel more comfortable with it. The Tridentine, or better called the Gregorian Mass, has remained unchanged in its essentials since about the 6th century.

Innumerable books and studies have been done on the origin, formulation and promulgation of the Novus Ordo. It is bad in and of itself, not simply because it was promulgated poorly.

A certain traditionalist priest has recently written a book on the Paul VI Rite called "Work of Human Hands, A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Father Anthony Cekada. It is a devastating work on the New Mass.

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I hereby recant of defending "orthodoxy" and trying to persuade fellow Catholics of embracing schism. I adhere to the Catholic Faith as preserved by the Church of Rome and Her Pontiffs.

I have no first-hand experience of the NO mass. What I do know of it has been gathered through youtube and literature, and all of these encounters have left me cold and unaffected. Seems like it doesn't quite know what it wants to be: too liturgical for most protestants and too irreverent for traditionalists---the El Camino of liturgies. The Tridentine, on the other hand, looks truly awe-inspiring and absolutely gorgeous. I know which one I would go for if I professed Roman Catholicism. I really mean no offense to RCs, forgive me.

High mass, yes.

Low mass, which is what most Catholics of a certain age knew of as "mass," no.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

The Novus Ordo was intentionally stripped of unambiguous and solid Catholic doctrine and language in order to make Protestants feel more comfortable with it. The Tridentine, or better called the Gregorian Mass, has remained unchanged in its essentials since about the 6th century.

Innumerable books and studies have been done on the origin, formulation and promulgation of the Novus Ordo. It is bad in and of itself, not simply because it was promulgated poorly.

A certain traditionalist priest has recently written a book on the Paul VI Rite called "Work of Human Hands, A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Father Anthony Cekada. It is a devastating work on the New Mass.

I do not see it this way. As one who grew up with the Novus Ordo, I like it. I do know that priests tend to introduce Evangelical elements to it today because of the current success by Evangelicals proselytizing Roman Catholics. But I still believe it to be good and holy. What I feel lacks in Roman Catholicism which I am trying to see if I can find it in Orthodoxy (and people here will say I will find it there, but I must undertake this journey myself) is the theological aspects apart from the Liturgy which I am guessing is what led to abuses in the first place. I personally believe that the Reformation was successful and it has changed the Roman Catholic faith, though not to what Martin Luther has intended and what the Catholic Church will admit. But so much of the Latin faith today is a byproduct of the Reformation, directly and indirectly.

I didn't attend a NO Mass until after converting to Orthodoxy, and having never been to a RC service before. I could see the Protestant influences all through it, and it was a huge let-down to be honest. I was expecting a Tridentine Mass in English (ignorant, I know), and instead got what appeared to be an abridged compilation of traditional liturgy with contemporary Evangelical worship services. The priest didn't seem to view the affair as sacred whatsoever, and instead was laughing and making funny gestures at people as he walked down the center aisle near the end of Mass - ceasing to sing (as everyone else was doing) in order to do so.

I could see it being done beautifully if one had a reverent priest, removed the campy hymns that broke up the continuity of the service (it's as if they were like "OH! We forgot to add hymns. Protestants LOVE hymns! We'll just throw them in here, and here - we'll win so many converts now!"), and got rid of the casually dressed Eucharistic Ministers.

A certain traditionalist priest has recently written a book on the Paul VI Rite called "Work of Human Hands, A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Father Anthony Cekada. It is a devastating work on the New Mass.

• Why do so many churches built for the Mass of Paul VI look so "un-churchy"?• Why does the priest face the people now for Mass?• Why did the tabernacle disappear?• Why are there so few statues and images?

The answer isn't fads or bad taste. It's bad theology — specifically the modernist theology of the Mass as assembly.

Naturally, understanding the Mass primarily as an assembly supper rather that as a sacrifice offered to God will have a profound influence on the externals of the rite.

Chapter Seven of Work of Human Hands examines how assembly theology affected the new legislation governing the externals of the Mass of Paul VI — church architecture, the altar, the tabernacle and the rest.

If the last Catholic church you were in looked like a food court or a Pizza Hut on the inside, you'll find the explanation here.

If only that book were required reading for the latin catholic schools or RCIA classes, there would be some reckoning.

Another book that had an equal influence and reminds of that book is

"The Banished Heart: Origins of Heteropraxis in the Catholic Church (T&T Clark Studies in Fundamental Liturgy) by Dr. Geoffrey Hull

Dr. Hull's book was amongst the most persuasive books to encourage one to become an Orthodox christian, or at least dedicated old latin mass goer that I ever found. It had solid bit by bit analysis of what led to the novus ordo mass and all the accompanying panolopy of theological teachings/associations promoted with it since the 60s especially but originating in some places by the 30's/40's. It showed how the laity of the latin church was like a frog put in the warm water, with the temperature gradually increased to a steady boil...

« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 03:16:28 AM by Christopher McAvoy »

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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

If you go to the, uh...composer's website, you will see the following bio:

Quote from: Probably Stephen DeCesare's mother

Stephen DeCesare has proven to be one of those prolific composers whose compositions have been widely acclaimed by audiences and critics alike for their dramatic strength, passionate melodies and rich orchestrations. His works are receiving numerous performances and commissions all over the world.

On May 1st 2011, Stephen was honored by conducting his Mass of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA on a worldwide EWTN telecast for the beatification of John Paul II.

In addition to his work for the theater, Stephen is active in sacred and orchestral music. To date, Stephen has over 800 compositions in his compositional catalog.

Wow! Impressive, huh? He was honored to conduct his Mass on ETWN TV network. I'm really bummed that I missed it, actually. No word on whether or not he's available for children's parties, either.

If you go to the, uh...composer's website, you will see the following bio:

Quote from: Probably Stephen DeCesare's mother

Stephen DeCesare has proven to be one of those prolific composers whose compositions have been widely acclaimed by audiences and critics alike for their dramatic strength, passionate melodies and rich orchestrations. His works are receiving numerous performances and commissions all over the world.

On May 1st 2011, Stephen was honored by conducting his Mass of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA on a worldwide EWTN telecast for the beatification of John Paul II.

In addition to his work for the theater, Stephen is active in sacred and orchestral music. To date, Stephen has over 800 compositions in his compositional catalog.

Wow! Impressive, huh? He was honored to conduct his Mass on ETWN TV network. I'm really bummed that I missed it, actually. No word on whether or not he's available for children's parties, either.

I'm certain that if you bring Pinocchio and Pope Francis along you will receive many requests to perform!

« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 12:55:40 AM by Christopher McAvoy »

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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

In answer to the question posed in the thread title, I think it's sad that the RCC threw away their beautiful liturgical traditions. The Tridentine Mass might have not been as impressive as the Divine Liturgy, but still...

I've never attended a Mass, either Tridentine or NO, so I have no opinion to offer. I'm in favour of the vernacular in worship, but I've been scarred by the (all of two) happy-clappy Anglican services I've been to. Given how much I love Gregorian chant, I'd probably prefer the older style.

(I used to pass regularly outside the RC cathedral in Athens. It's a jewel of a building, and I hope it has stuck to tradition inside.)

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

I've never attended a Mass, either Tridentine or NO, so I have no opinion to offer. I'm in favour of the vernacular in worship, but I've been scarred by the (all of two) happy-clappy Anglican services I've been to. Given how much I love Gregorian chant, I'd probably prefer the older style.

I've been to one NO Mass in Romania. There were none of the extreme abuses that some people here report but it felt exactly like an Anglican (not the really low Church, evangelical, happy clappy type, though) or Lutheran service. Not a patch on the Divine Liturgy. Honestly, if I was to wake up tomorrow and find the Schism had been healed, I'd still drive the 45 minutes on Sunday to get to DL rather than walk 10 minutes to the local RC parish.

James

« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 05:47:58 AM by jmbejdl »

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

I've never attended a Mass, either Tridentine or NO, so I have no opinion to offer. I'm in favour of the vernacular in worship, but I've been scarred by the (all of two) happy-clappy Anglican services I've been to. Given how much I love Gregorian chant, I'd probably prefer the older style.

I've been to one NO Mass in Romania. There were none of the extreme abuses that some people here report but it felt exactly like an Anglican (not the really low Church, evangelical, happy clappy type, though) or Lutheran service.

I understand that a group of Catholics received into the Syriac Orthodox Church will be able to continue with the NO Mass.

Interesting ... not just because this is the first mention I've heard of the Syriac Orthodox having a Western Rite, but even more because of the rarity of hearing about a group of Catholics being received into Orthodoxy.

I understand that a group of Catholics received into the Syriac Orthodox Church will be able to continue with the NO Mass.

Interesting ... not just because this is the first mention I've heard of the Syriac Orthodox having a Western Rite, but even more because of the rarity of hearing about a group of Catholics being received into Orthodoxy.

There used to be another group in India who were Western rite before the IOC-SOC Schism. They were ex-Latin Catholics from Goa who converted under St. Julius Mar Alvares. They ended up continuing under the IOC using a slightly modified form of the Tridentine mass until the 1980's, when they ran out of priests that were proficient in the WR. They then gradually folded into the Malankara Rite.

I understand that a group of Catholics received into the Syriac Orthodox Church will be able to continue with the NO Mass.

Interesting ... not just because this is the first mention I've heard of the Syriac Orthodox having a Western Rite, but even more because of the rarity of hearing about a group of Catholics being received into Orthodoxy.

They were the "Renewed Ecumenical Catholic Church of Guatemala". See this.

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Personally, I believe that the greatest problem with the NO is the way that priests celebrate it. As many have noted, the campy, clappy, "let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya my Lord" music has no place in liturgical worship. In fact, because it is just aweful music, it prabably doesn't havce any place anywhere. It's insult to the minds of the faithful, but what is much worse, it does not direct the mind to God, but rather to the "community." This is a sort of soft idolotry, where attention to God is replaced with attention to man. I'm not sure how this can be called worship in any legitimate sense. Along similar lines is the problem of the priest facing the people rather than liturgical East. In his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, Cardinal Ratzinger recounts the rich Christian symbolism that accompanies the tradition of a liturgy celebrated ad orientem. It's not about facing "away from the people" but rather, about the priest leading the community in worship of God, among other things. When the priest is turned towards the people, the community is again closed in on itself, and the focus is on man rather than God. I don't think it would be terribly difficult to fix these problems, though. All the Pope would have to do is mandate that the Liturgy is celebrated with sacred music, and ad orientem. Not sure why no Pope has gotten around to doing this.

I've attended several times Novus Ordo Mass. Too short, lack of the Holy Spirit, more speeches than prayer. However, if it was celebrated by priest, who carries about tradition, it wasn't so bad. In Novus Ordo much more depends on the priest, so sometimes the new Mass is a disaster and sometimes there are used some elements of other rites e.g. byzantine. Some things, as restoration of the majority of the readings of the Paschal Vigil, are the positive side of the liturgical reform in 60'.

But, actually, I prefer much more eastern Liturgies. Once I was on Tridentine Mass on Sunday. A bit longer than Novus Ordo, but I didn't feel nothing special in the spirituality. I couldn't "enter" the atmosphere. The priest was muttering something in Latin so long time, so I understood neither the gestures nor the content of prayers. Despite these (or maybe because of these) there wasn't any mystery. The Western hymnography is fairly poor than Eastern. The Tridentine Mass isn't so ancient as Eastern Liturgies. As for me, Latin rite had lost quite a lot even before Vaticanum Secundum. I see both Novus Ordo and Tridentine Mass rigid, artificial and without depth.

Good point D. The Hymnography is theology in song in the East. So is the whole Liturgy for the most part. It just isnt the same with the Western Liturgy.

Because their "innovations" somehow constitute the continuation of the early church I'd imagine.

PP

What they "think" or rationalized in the scattered imagination of thier hearts is the continuation of the early Church, which was formed by a committe closely emulating a Lutheran "liturgy" from the begining of the 1900s.

Personally, I believe that the greatest problem with the NO is the way that priests celebrate it. As many have noted, the campy, clappy, "let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya my Lord" music has no place in liturgical worship. In fact, because it is just aweful music, it prabably doesn't havce any place anywhere. It's insult to the minds of the faithful, but what is much worse, it does not direct the mind to God, but rather to the "community." This is a sort of soft idolotry, where attention to God is replaced with attention to man. I'm not sure how this can be called worship in any legitimate sense. Along similar lines is the problem of the priest facing the people rather than liturgical East. In his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, Cardinal Ratzinger recounts the rich Christian symbolism that accompanies the tradition of a liturgy celebrated ad orientem. It's not about facing "away from the people" but rather, about the priest leading the community in worship of God, among other things. When the priest is turned towards the people, the community is again closed in on itself, and the focus is on man rather than God. I don't think it would be terribly difficult to fix these problems, though. All the Pope would have to do is mandate that the Liturgy is celebrated with sacred music, and ad orientem. Not sure why no Pope has gotten around to doing this.

The most reverent NO masses Ive seen were still banal XXXX (even with very good classicaly trained tenor leading the singing i.e. drowning out tone deaf parishoners) compared to a Tridentine or more so St. John C's Liturgy. Cant polish a XXXX man. Stop with the lame XXX excuses for a piece of XXXX commiteed up by free masons.

Profanities Removed - Arimethea

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