Re: another reason for the sour mash process

Antifoam can be a number of products. Some are silicone used and there are newly approved Antifoam for the beer brewing industry that are hop derived. They all basically have an effect on surface tension, and more specifically protein stability. In brewing beer the fermentation foam is of concern and becomes loss in primary fermentation. I think for the whiskey mashes its a combo of heating the mash and residual dissolved co2 coming out of solution as it comes to temp in the boiler. Also as the mash is further heated more mash proteins are precipating out of solution from the temp increase and we see that as frothy foam. Just like bringing pasta up to boil really. Antifoam allows for increased efficiency of vessels. You can fit more, lose less to foaming, and gain more control. However like mentioned, why not make it without Antifoam and use techniques already in existence that are proven and do not adulterate the mash?

Re: another reason for the sour mash process

Re: another reason for the sour mash process

I'm wondering if tmckenzie would disclose the average pH of the sour mash at the time of boiling. If its even measured. Only reason I ask if that in the brewing world sour fermented beers have little to no foam stability after their lengthy fermentation. Either the proteins responsible for foam are utilized by the souring bacteria as a carbon source, or the just simply become denatured because the mash/ beer pH is outside their range for stability. Some beers made by homebrewers and a couple craft breweries have done it too, are sour mashed after starch conversion. This is done to get a sour beer like berliner weisse, in a very short amount of time, and because the wort is boiled post mash it doesn't transfer bacteria to any fermentors, keeping everything as the brewing equipment clean. The pH of these styles of beer range from 3.0-3.5 pH and I have not found one with great foam stability. Though the mash is treated differently, much translates at that stage between brewing and distilling.

I am only a brewer (not just homebrewer), tMcKenzie will have to chime in on the distilling specifics.

Re: another reason for the sour mash process

It's interesting that you should mention that, because I just recently read that homebrewers typically want the pH of their mash to be about 5.5 (just going by recollection, so I may be slightly off). I don't remember if that was pre- or post-boil, though.

Re: another reason for the sour mash process

Originally Posted by smokinghole;3I only ce1808

I'm wondering if tmckenzie would disclose the average pH of the sour mash at the time of boiling. If its even measured. Only reason I ask if that in the brewing world sour fermented beers have little to no foam stability after their lengthy fermentation. Either the proteins responsible for foam are utilized by the souring bacteria as a carbon source, or the just simply become denatured because the mash/ beer pH is outside their range for stability. Some beers made by homebrewers and a couple craft breweries have done it too, are sour mashed after starch conversion. This is done to get a sour beer like berliner weisse, in a very short amount of time, and because the wort is boiled post mash it doesn't transfer bacteria to any fermentors, keeping everything as the brewing equipment clean. The pH of these styles of beer range from 3.0-3.5 pH and I have not found one with great foam stability. Though the mash is treated differently, much translates at that stage between brewing and distilling.

I am only a brewer (not just homebrewer), tMcKenzie will have to chime in on the distilling specifics.

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I will check today, i only check it when I set the fermenter. I like to be from 3.8 to 4.2, which is pretty sour.

Re: another reason for the sour mash process

A mash for brewing beer is generally good at 5.2-5.4 with outliers being acceptable. Mash pH is responsible for many regional beer styles because of water. I am sure the same can be said for distilling. Post boil the pH will be closer to 4.9ish and post fermentation you will typically end up 4.1-4.8 dependent on alcohol and residual malt sugars.

Re: another reason for the sour mash process

That's an excellent theory, Tom, and one I had not heard before. Historically, the adoption of sour mash and the adoption of the column still occur in Kentucky at about the same time.

I hear wheat is a bad foamer too. Bill Samuels told me that one bit of wisdom his dad got from Pappy Van Winkle was never to cook a wheated mash under pressure. Fred Noe also once mentioned foaming as a problem with rye whiskey. Also rye balls.

Re: another reason for the sour mash process

Either the proteins responsible for foam are utilized by the souring bacteria as a carbon source

It's this. A lower pH range actually stabilizes foam.

The bacteria in sour beer consumes high molecular weight proteins, leading to very low terminal gravities, and poor foam and foam stability.

The reason that sour mash helps with foaming is that these same proteins as well as beta glucans are broken up (not denatured) from the intense heat. When you're talking about a column still, you're talking about direct steam injection, which means very high temperatures coming in direct contact with mash--- higher than what you get from a simple pot still with a jacket. If you're running a pot still or a beer kettle, you can throttle back the heat to a very low level, giving the heat a chance to break up the proteins, and thereby settling down the foam. A continuous still does not allow for such a luxury----therefore, you want to add sour mash----mash that has ALREADY undergone this intense heating process, breaking down (not denaturing) proteins and beta glucans that lead to foam.