This
Message Forum is to discuss spiritual topics only. Please avoid personal
or assembly matters.
Let us use this facility for our spiritual enrichment and for bringing
glory to our Lord almighty.Webmasters
reserve the right to delete any topic or posting partly or completely
from this forum.

If I need to be paid to do what is morally right , then I am not obeying God's word, which tells me that I should be doing what is right no matter what. If I accept money to do what is wrong, I make my sin worse. That is the way of Judas.

"The love of money is the root of all evil, which, while some have coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Tim. 6:10)

I do not know of anyone who is a real Christian that takes bribes. If you do, you must speak to them privately and tell them that to do so is sin. Remind them that it is very wrong for a Christian to continue in sin, and remind them what sin cost Jesus on the Cross.

If they will not listen to you, you must confide in an elder or someone who has experience and moral authority. Ask such a one for advice. Do not make the identity of the bribe-taker public. The elders should deal with the matter, and only they should decide if and when the matter needs to be made public if all else fails. This would be the last resort.

Giving a bribe is as bad if not worse than accepting it. The person who gives the bribe initiates the transaction. If you know of a fellow-Christian involved in such behaviour you should follow the instructions that I gave to "atjob" regarding those who accept bribes.

Dear "atjob":Your question..are you asking specifically if it is ok to give a bribe to perhaps, acquire a job, for instance?And Mr. John, I know the instruction you gave to "atjob" is actually the biblical way to go about it. But let me ask you this...And this is just my observation, and I may be opening up a can of worms....but it seems everyone seems to be doing it...classifying it under different names ,of course.First, it is the "donation" to acquire a seat in a preferred college or intitute and then it is to acquire a desirable job again in a desired firm...nobody seems to think it is morally wrong, because it is always to get a particular prestige that is attached to being in that college or firm.

I feel the whole donation thing, too, is a bribe of sorts, is it not? Then who do you go to or address?

The first and foremeost isPsalms 1281Blessed is every one that FEARETH the LORD; that walketh in his ways.

If we have fear in our heart, we can analyse ourselves what is right and wrong, if we dont have the fear of God, we always can justify what is wrong and we make the wrong right. Our Lord is a loving God , he punishes also , might be through our physique, through our children , by diseases. What ever the word of God says no, let it be noLuke 192A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy.

7All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "

8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

You agree that what I suggested is the "biblical way" to go about dealing with bribery. What I must say is that there is no other way for Christians. Bribery, for any reason, is a corrupt practise. It may be manifested in four ways and scripture gives examples of all four.

1. To seek a bribe. Mat. 26:15 (Judas)/Acts 24:26 (Felix)2. To offer a bribe. Acts 8:18 (Simon the magician)3. To take a bribe. Mat. 28:15 (The soldiers)4. To give a bribe. Mat. 26:15 (The chief priests)/Mat. 28:12 (The chief priests & the elders)

The dreadful, ultimate consequences of bribery are vividly described in Mat. 27:3-5.

The instances you refer to seem minor in comparison to the scriptural examples, but the principle is the same. God will not bless any venture that is based on, or helped along by bribery. If the practise is known in the Christian circle it must be condemned.

Thank you so much Mr.John...Those verses were definitly helpful and I guess the bottom line is... it doesn't matter how you cloak it, it is still against God's will. I guess that's when trusting, having faith and submitting to God's will and time truly kicks in.....waiting to see what God has planned for you. I asked the question not to confront anyone or judge anyone...it was for my own knowledge...to tell my children when they ask these questions....So,thank you for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate the gesture.

I don't think it is right to say thet 'All Capitation fees for proffesional colleges are bribe'

In Kerala we have lot of Self financing colleges and they do ask for Capitation fees and give proper receipts for the same. Some colleges collect almost 1 lakh RS as Caution deposit and use that for infra structure development.

All the above cases are properly audited/accounted and I don't see any thing iwrong in that...

But in other states, people pay money to some directors and get the seat..No receipt/No tax.. This is bribe...

Dear "joa",I am sorry, I am not aware of the colleges in Kerala you are talking of. So, is this capitation fees the tuition or is this another payment? If so, it doesn't make sense to me, because even if it is a "self-financed" college and they need to make infrastructural developments, why not use the tuition money of students over a period of years? I am not argiung, just merely asking a doubt, that is all. So maybe you could explain it.I think my question was whether it was right as beleivers, who have to, at least, try to live a christian life, to give any amount of money (with or without receipts) for acquiring a seat for their child into a educational institute or later on, into a desirable firm, for the sole purpose of status/affluence that is associated with it....like they say "all just for 15 minutes of fame"? Why do we find it so hard to leave it to God's will if we do or don't get into a desired institute/firm and trust that if He does/doesn't it is all part of His plan for us? Why the need to take things into our hands and cloaking it under "securing their future" or something? It wasn't to critisize anyone, I was just wondering as someone looking in, why it occured and no one felt it was wrong, that is all.But anyway, Bro.John was kind enough to explain it with some verses and I think they were pretty clear.....however we like to cloak it in the end. But thank you, for bringing another view point to the table. It was an interesting thought.

Dear JoaWhat you stated about capitation fees is wrong. No institution in kerala is allowed to collect capitation fee as per the laws in kerala. They never give reciept in the name of the college as 'capitation fees' collected. They may give receipt in the name of some other organization and not the college. Self financing colleges are allowed to collect a higher fess. This is to meet all their expenses. 'Caution deposit' is somethinmg different.Capitation fees or 'kozha money'(bribe) rates in kerala for engineering seats vary from Rs 50,000 to Rs .25 million depending on college and subject. For medicine it is from Rs 1.5 million to 3 million.'karunya' in Tamilnadu charge from 0.1 million to 0.25 million. Non resident Indians will have to pay more.A large mumber of brethren give 'kozha'(bribe) and get kids admitted. Even if people say it is legal (becuase you get a receipt), it is not scriptural and spiritual.

I hope the best way is not to do those thing which judge your inner mind that is against the Lord's word, which is inside you. Whereas if you apply for a job and the agent asking for a sum for that particular job, we have to pay, but no other way, in that case you have to take a decision and keep the same in front of the Lord and seek his help.I would like to explain you a recent example in my life. We applied for a passport for my wife, for enquiry Police man came to my house (Gentile), he checked every documents and found everything alright, while signing the paper, he starts saying it took lot of time to search your house (whereas we are staying in the heart of the city) I used my personal bike and spent lot of money for petrol etc.

What we did (not as a bribe) but since he told that he spent time and money from his pocket, I told to pay him off his personal expenditure with full heart without murmuring anything because I was happy to give him and I pray that this should not count as bribe but a debt which I paid off to a human being, (since I have owe to my Lord lot, which I am unable to pay off in any form, except to show his love to others in this world) and said sorry brother for the trouble caused to you. He was happy and left. I gave the money not as a bribe but as give to a human, I did not look into his moto behind but gave it to a human being who is needy. ( If you are of Lord's then you should not worry about it but Lord's word says I gave these to gentiles but you are mine, give all those worldly thing to those wordly people, and stick to the word of God and cling to him only).Here I would like to clear one thing- yes it is bribe,in my personal opinion, if you are paying off to someone to make a document or anything which is not at all genuine.

Dowry could be considered a form of illegal money transaction which is a sin. Buying / Selling property and fudging stamp paper records to suppress the actual buy/sell price is a sin. There are many Christian bretheren that lend money / borrow large sums at high interest through illegal off-the-book transactions. If you list these and much more sinful things prevalent in our churches, I bet paying a capitation fee would be someplace at the bottom but still considered a sinful act. Our Indian social attitudes has become that without paying bribes nothing gets done, the sooner you want something done the more you shell out. Today ask a Christian in Kerala for advice in getting something done and he would direct you to a fixer who can get all the paperwork completed and done for a "fee" (not called a bribe anymore).

This is a forward I received sometime back; and is true, not only of the majority community in India but of minorities also; and especially the non-episcopal, NT Pattern, evangelicals too!!.

Hobbesian.(culture of self interest)Corruption in India is a cultural aspect.
Indians seem to think nothing peculiar about corruption.
It is everywhere. Indians tolerate corrupt individuals rather than correct them.

No race can be congenitally corrupt.
But can a race be corrupted by its culture?

To know why Indians are corrupt ,
look at their patterns and practices .

First:
Religion is transactional in India.
Indians give God cash and anticipate an out-of-turn reward.
Such a plea acknowledges that favours are needed for the undeserving.

In the world outside the temple walls,
such a transaction is named- “bribe”.

A wealthy Indian gives not cash to temples,
but gold crowns and such baubles.

His gifts can not feed the poor. His pay-off is for God.
He thinks it will be wasted if it goes to a needy man.

In June 2009, The Hindu published a report of Karnataka minister
G. Janardhan Reddy gifting a crown of gold and diamonds worth
Rs 45 crore to Tirupati.

India’s temples collect so much that
they don't know what to do with it.
Billions are gathering dust in temple vaults.

When Europeans came to India they built schools.
When Indians go to Europe & USA, they build temples.

Indians believe that if God accepts money for his favours,
then nothing is wrong in doing the same thing.
This is why Indians are so easily corruptible.

Indian culture accommodates such transactions morally.
There is no real stigma. An utterly corrupt JayaLalita can
make a comeback, just unthinkable in the West.

Second -Indian moral ambiguity towards corruption is visible in its history.
Indian history tells of the capture of cities and kingdoms after guards
were paid off to open the gates, and commanders paid off to surrender.

This is unique to India.

Indians' corrupt nature has meant limited warfare on the subcontinent.
It is striking how little Indians have actually fought compared to
ancient Greece and modern Europe.

The Turks’ battles with Nadir Shah were vicious and fought to the finish.

In India fighting wasn't needed, bribing was enough to see off armies.

Any invader willing to spend cash could brush aside India’s kings,
no matter how many tens of thousands soldiers were in their infantry.

Little resistance was given by the Indians at the “Battle” of Plassey.
Clive paid off Mir Jaffar and all of Bengal folded to an army of 3,000.

There was always a financial exchange to taking Indian forts.
Golconda was captured in 1687 after the secret back door was left open.

Mughals vanquished Marathas and Rajputs with nothing but bribes.

The Raja of Srinagar gave up Dara Shikoh’s son Sulaiman to
Aurangzeb after receiving a bribe.

There are many cases where Indians participated
on a large scale in treason due to bribery.

Question is: Why Indians have a transactional culture while
other 'civilized' nations don't?

Third -Indians do not believe in the theory that they all can rise
if each of them behaves morally, because that is not
the message of their faith.

Their caste system separates them.
They don't believe that all men are equal.
This resulted in their division and migration to other religions .

Many Hindus started their own faith like Sikh, Jain, Buddha
and many converted to Christianity and Islam.

The result is that Indians don't trust one another .

There are no Indians in India ,there are
Hindus ,Christians, Muslims and what not.

Indians forget that 400 years ago they all belonged to one faith.

This division evolved an unhealthy culture.
The inequality has resulted in a corrupt society,

In India every one is thus against everyone else,
except God ­ and even he must be bribed.

It is interesting to see what all are the things our “Brethren” are interested in. Bribe, Ornaments, dowry, marriage. There is nothing wrong in discussing these topics, but does it lead us to any conclusion? Does it lead us to the recognition of our mistakes, confession and reconciliation with the Lord? Are we edified spiritually or trying to find fault with the other person?

Since the discussion here is about bribe let me say something about it. Bribe (both giving and accepting) is not only the sin that is liberally practiced and accepted among the “Brethren” in India. Any sin involving money is widely accepted and who ever makes money through unauthorized and illegal way have found leadership positions in our community by using that ill gotten wealth. This money is accepted by preachers and project directors without any question. When I confronted a very popular leader in Kerala on this matter his answer was, “who does not have two books”. Then he went on to explain and suggested that, we need to run the projects and need money. As long as someone is willing to pay we will accept it. I have seen several projects financed with such ill-gotten money. Tax evasion, bribe, cheating, extortion affiliation with gang members and politicians to maintain the business nexus are all accepted in our community. No preachers would dear to speak against it. But one elder, also a prominent preacher in Kerala was recently asked to step-down from eldership for bringing a new convert in to the assembly with ornaments. Are we, the “Kerala Brethren” any better than the phrases and the Sadducees of the Lord’s time? Is using ornaments and “love marriage” are worse sins than the financial sins practiced by many elders and leaders? We are more interested in keeping the traditions of our forefathers than being truthful to the Lord and His word. We have moved down from Simon Sar- ism to Itti Sar-ism. The “Brethren” tag is more important than a clear separated life. What a pity!

Bribe:It is not only what a person demands in return and accepts for a legitimate service he is authorized or duty bound to do.

When a person accepts commission for purchasing certain products for his company, it is bribe.

When a medical doctor accepts a gift from a farmasutical company for prescribing certain medicine, it is bribe.

Extortion:One does not have to go to another with a gun and grab his wealth to be an extortionist. When an industrialist does not pay a decent salary to his employ, it is extortion.

When you refuse to pay the rightful amount to a service you avail from a lesser privileged person or make him to wait too long to pay it for no proper reason, it is extortion.

When you force your subordinates to work for longer hours for your own satisfaction or advantage, it is extortion. You are stealing his valuable time that he needs to spent with his family or with the Lord and in most cases lead him to a mental breakdown. If a person demands exorbitant wages or remuneration for any service he renders, it is extortion.

If you hide the truth (which not necessarily amounts to lying) for gaining some monitorial benefit, it is extortion.

If you (mostly businessmen) write your accounts in “two books” to evade tax or cheat your employer, it is extortion.

If a “preacher” demands a certain amount of “Gift” for his service such as preaching, conducting weddings or officiating any Christian function, it is extortion. A music team present themselves as being in the “ministry” demand “wages” it is no longer a ministry and it amounts to extortion. A “Minister of the Lord” can never demand remuneration. Such demand can be made verbally or by action.

Ill gotten money:All wealth a person accumulates through illegitimate means comes under this category, whether it through bribe, extortion, or through propagating wrong or untrue messages as some evangelists do.

Dear Paul Thomas, my interest is to know how Mr.R T Daniel explains the phrase 'unrighteous mammon' in the verse Luke 16:9 in relation to 'ill-gotten money' he has mentioned, is there any difference between them or are they similar to each other in their meaning.

Mammon is the Aramaic word for “riches”. In the parable in Luke.16 Jesus used it as a life goal opposed to God. The unjust steward used his master’s money to make friends. It is definitely ill-gotten money. He swindled his master’s money and used it for his selfish gain.

Money which is used for purposes other than the glory of God is unrighteous mammon.

“And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammon, that when you fail, they may receive you into an everlasting home”

Jesus’ advice here to His disciples (and so to believers too, I presume) is that they can use the ill-gotten money they posses to gain friends for them. Then, possessing ill-gotten money by believers may be inevitable some times, if not always which we can use for a good purpose. What do the underlined word & the phrase ‘fail’ and ‘receiving into everlasting home’ denote?

In view of my comment (extortion, affiliation with gang members and politicians to maintain the business nexus' is something terrible even to read about. So, murdering too can not be remote for such persons?) in my post dt. 13 Apr 2013, following is the statement given by Mr.R T Daniel in his post dt. 16 Apr 2013.

“Extortion:One does not have to go to another with a gun and grab his wealth to be an extortionist. When an industrialist does not pay a decent salary to his employ, it is extortion”

It is not wrong to assess that the amount of extortions committed by both the gun bearer and an industrialist are equal. The sin is one and the same. My sentence ‘so, murdering too....’ had caused Mr.RTD to make the above statement. It seems RTD thinks that a true believer can not commit murder. A believer numbered so, for obvious reasons, may be clever enough to not get involved in a murder directly. But, when he has an affiliation with gang members and politicians of this world, he can not escape being a partner with them in their wicked deeds including a murder. Psalm 1:1 says that blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful. Paul warns believers not to be partakers with the sons of disobedience who await the wrath of God, being an idolater because of covetousness (Eph 5:5, 6). To be a partaker with a wicked of this world, one Christian has to mortgage his faith in Christ to that wicked and stand by his side, when he commits a murder.

James in his epistle says ‘You murder and covet....’ (4:2). Peter tells that let none of us suffer as a murderer (1 Peter 4:15).

I am not able to agree with Mr. Daniel’s statement “Money which is used for purposes other than the glory of God is unrighteous mammon”. The money is called an unrighteous mammon, not for the way it is used, but for how it has been earned.