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evolution or bigbang?

Posted on: June 2, 2007 - 9:19pm

dark_light

Posts: 17

Joined: 2007-06-02

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evolution or bigbang?

Why Do You Exist?Was the universe created or is it merely an act of chance?#1(the atheiests creation ...)The mainstream theory on the origin of the universe is called the big bang theory. Basically it states that in the beginning there was nothing; no time, no, space, no matter, no dimensions. Some how, there blinked into existence a singularity. (A point in space that had 0 height, 0 length, 0 width) that contained all the matter and energy in the universe. This point exploded and the results is the present day universe.#2(the theists creation...)Notice Genesis 2:7: “…God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” are we the result of the “Big Bang”?or chance?The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions.#3(The Atheist Test)I don't believe in atheists. This isn't because I haven't met people who claim the title, but because such a person cannot be. Let's imagine that you are a professing atheist. I will ask you two questions: First, do you know the combined weight of all the sand on all the beaches of Hawaii? I think I can safely assume that you don't. This brings us to the second question: Do you know how many hairs are on your head? Probably not. I think, therefore, that it is reasonable for me to conclude that there are some things you don't know. It is important to ask these questions because there are some people who think they know everything.

If we do exist, there are only 2 possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been. The Humanist Manifesto says, “Matter is self-existing and not created,” and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief.

The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what science has discovered about this question. The picture below on the left represents our part of the cosmos. Each of the disk shaped objects is a galaxy like our Milky Way. All of these galaxies are moving relative to each other. Their movement has a very distinct pattern which causes the distance between the galaxies to increase with every passing day. If we had three galaxies located at positions A, B. and C in the second diagram below, and if they are located as shown, tomorrow they will be further apart. The triangle they form will be bigger. The day after tomorrow the triangle will be bigger yet. We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.

Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what scientists call a singularity! A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nucleer process known as thermonuclear fusion. Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence. The process fueling this incredible furnace is not used by our sun alone. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

Suppose one attempts to drive an automobile without putting any more gas (fuel) into it. As he drive and drives, what is eventually going to happen? He is am going to run out of gas. If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is, however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe! Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the spectrum — a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not be unless we had a beginning!

A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomees refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is “everything that ever was or is or ever will be,” as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.

If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question: was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause — a creation — but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that “matter is self-existing and not created.” If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all electronics and demanding that your TV set not work! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.

The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and self existing is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.

The Design.

If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to answer — what was the cause? The Bible tells us that God was the cause. We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with planning and reason and logic. Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know God exists “through the things he has made.” The atheist on the other hand, will try to convince us that we are the product of chance. Julian Huxley once said: We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents.

The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called “the anthropic principle.” The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

Some investigators point out that cosmological proof does not demonstrate a personal God. This is correct. Cosmological proof makes no pretence to this. It affirms only that there is a sufficient basis for the recognition of a super-universal, higher creative force, on which the origin of the universe depends, and that this force has a real existence.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

Apotheon - I have heard this particular argument before and it has been refuted. I do not have the physics background to refute it for you so I will let other do that, however I will caution you to avoid attributing scientific theories to atheists positions. Atheism is not a scientific position. It is a lack of belief in any god(s). Several times you stated things like "the atheist position", "atheists tell us", etc. This is false.

I have read your other posts in other threads and while I do not agree with you, I do not want you to get frustrated and leave because you do not understand atheism and you will get called on it here. Please take the time to learn exactly what atheism is before you begin attaching things to it.

I know very well what atheism is. Its rebellion, not lack of belief. Everyone knows God exists, though they live in a state of denial and pretend to have no belief. Atheism is a position. The modern phenomenon of atheism is only around 200 years old. But in ancient times the Greek Church Fathers classified atheism as a sickness of the soul ( a passion) that must be overcome. When we fell from paradise (Eden), the "nous" (mind/highest part of the soul) became darkened and unable to perceive God. Sin is like a dark cloud that obscures the light of the Sun. That is why sin is so dangerous. Atheism is nothing but a symptom of the spiritual condition of the sin and Nihilism of modern society. Read, "Nihilism: the Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age," by Fr. Seraphim Rose. Sin darkens the mind. "Rationality" inevitably leads to sekpticism because man cannot come to knowledge of God through his own means. The mind must be enlightened and infused with Divine illumination by God. Otherwise it remains in darkness and sickness. The exercise of virtue attracks this Divine illumination. The more one sins and rebells against God, the darker his mind becomes.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

Are you sure? That is very interesting. It is wrong, but it is very interesting.

Apotheon wrote:

Everyone knows God exists, though they live in a state of denial and pretend to have no belief.

This is also wrong. No one knows any god exists. You can't prove any of them do and I can't prove any of them don't. So you see, I am an atheist because I lack belief.

Apotheon wrote:

Atheism is a position. The modern phenomenon of atheism is only around 200 years old. But in ancient times the Greek Church Fathers classified atheism as a sickness of the soul ( a passion) that must be overcome.

You probably think homosexuality is a sickness, too. You are funny.

Apotheon wrote:

When we fell from paradise (Eden), the "nous" (mind/highest part of the soul) became darkened and unable to perceive God. Sin is like a dark cloud that obscures the light of the Sun. That is why sin is so dangerous.

Well, you sure make it sound scary!

Apotheon wrote:

Atheism is nothing but a symptom of the spiritual condition of the sin and Nihilism of modern society. Read, "Nihilism: the Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age," by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

Nope, Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. I already told you that. You can even look it up if you want.

Apotheon wrote:

Sin darkens the mind. "Rationality" inevitably leads to sekpticism because man cannot come to knowledge of God through his own means.

Yeah, skepticism sucks. It makes it hard to take advantage of a person when they are skeptical.

Apotheon wrote:

The mind must be enlightened and infused with Divine illumination by God. Otherwise it remains in darkness and sickness. The exercise of virtue attracks this Divine illumination. The more one sins and rebells against God, the darker his mind becomes.

The technical definition of atheism was given by men who were in spiritual darkness themselves. They only saw the physical manifestation of human behavior and the fruits of a blind rationalism. They could not see the spiritual source behind atheism, because they were not capable of seeing the spiritual reality of man. In reality, atheism is a denial and rebellion. There are very powerful forces at work in the world who are trying to control how we think and how we perceive thruth. We have been indoctrinated by these evil forces into believing the obvious evidence for God does not constitute evidence. We have been brainwashed into believing that only things that can be seen, felt and heard exist. They are trying to deliver this world from God into the hands of the devil. We cannot make you believe, and no amount of evidence will ever be good enough untill you first cooperate with the Grace of God that is already within you. When you do this, more Grace and illumination will be given. Untill the atheist does this, their mind will remain in darkness and a viscious circle of rationality and skepticism. God gives Grace to the humble. God does not dwell in proud minds. We must first fall on our knees and admit that man is not the center of the universe. Reality does not revolve around man. We must admit that without God we are nothing. Untill man learns to humble himself, God will not enlighten him. No matter how much a person learns and how knowledgeable they become, they will remain a discrace to God and in darkness untill he learns humility. "God resists the proud but gives Grace to the humble" (Bible)

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

I don't suppose you would be terribly surprised to learn I, for one, have already tried this, would you? There are others here who have tried it too.

Your post could be perceived as proselytism....but for now I will ask you where on earth you came up with these ideas? I mean, seriously, do you have anything at all to back up these statements? Most of what you have stated seems less like an invitation for a discussion than it is a sermon. A very bad sermon.

There are, and were, many contemporary writers who diagnosed the spiritual and mentail ailments permeating modern civilization. One such author was IM Andreyev. He was a Russian scientist, philosopher and theologian. You can read his book free online: "Orthodox Apologetic Theology." Fr. Seraphim Rose was a monk and classified genius. He wrote several books. "Nihilism: the Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age," talks about this stuff.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

The technical definition of atheism was given by men who were in spiritual darkness themselves.

Whatever, go pray for us.

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They only saw the physical manifestation of human behavior and the fruits of a blind rationalism. They could not see the spiritual source behind atheism, because they were not capable of seeing the spiritual reality of man.

You can see the spiritual reality of man? Oh really? Define it. Describe it. Tell me where you got your information.

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In reality, atheism is a denial and rebellion.

In reality, it is NOT. Pompous imbecile.

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There are very powerful forces at work in the world who are trying to control how we think and how we perceive thruth.

Oh, the irony. Let me know when you have it figured out, Apotheon.

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We have been indoctrinated by these evil forces into believing the obvious evidence for God does not constitute evidence.

List your, ahem, "evidence," please.

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They are trying to deliver this world from God into the hands of the devil.

Scare tactics. Good. You'll influence a lot of weak-minded people with that one.

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We cannot make you believe, and no amount of evidence will ever be good enough untill you first cooperate with the Grace of God that is already within you.

Why don't you start by showing me ANY evidence. Oh, wait, I get it, I can't see it because I don't have "grace." How convenient.

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When you do this, more Grace and illumination will be given.

Yeah, yeah, I get it, and it's still ridiculous and an argument without merit.

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Untill the atheist does this, their mind will remain in darkness and a viscious circle of rationality and skepticism.

Oh, well, now you've convinced me. Where do I pick up my self-loathing ribbons?

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God gives Grace to the humble.

Ah yes, all those theist examples of humility. The opulent churches, the private city, the for-profit universities.

You're a fool. Take off the blinders.

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God does not dwell in proud minds. We must first fall on our knees and admit that man is not the center of the universe.

You're a bottom, aren't you?

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Reality does not revolve around man. We must admit that without God we are nothing. Untill man learns to humble himself, God will not enlighten him. No matter how much a person learns and how knowledgeable they become, they will remain a discrace to God and in darkness untill he learns humility. "God resists the proud but gives Grace to the humble" (Bible)

If I'm a disgrace to god, he saw it coming from the day I was born, didn't he?

No amout of evidence and argumentation will ever work until the mind is infused with Divine illumination. Untill this happens, the mind will continue to wonder in the viscious cycle of darkness and carnal "rationalism." True rationalism and reason only come from a purified and illumined mind.

Evolution is a dead science. We have been duped and brainwashed into believing there is massive evidence for it, but there isn't.

I recommend "Icons of Evolution," by Wells.

Jonathan Wells has received two Ph.D.s, one in Molecular and Cell Biology from the University of California at Berkeley, and one in Religious Studies from Yale University. He has done postdoctoral research at the University of California at Berkeley, and has taught biology at California State University in Hayward. Dr. Wells has published articles in both scientific and religious journals including Development, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, BioSystems, American Presbyterians, and Patristic and Byzantine Review. He is also author of the book Charles Hodge's Critique of Darwinism (Edwin Mellen Press, 1988). He is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute. Dr. Wells's work in developmental biology poses a serious challenge to the neo-Darwinian idea that random mutations can create new body plans and organisms.

Also, the Intelligent Design Network. There are many ID organizations popping up all over the place.

However I have a theory. I believe there is a conspiracy. I believe that science will finally come to the acceptance that we have been designed, but the credit will not go to God but to aliens. Satan has always wanted all the credit and worship as God. So he will deceive mankind into believing we were seeded by extra-terrestrials. There are many ET organizations popping up with this claim such as the Raelian movement. They are atheists who believe we were desiged by ET's. This will be a massive delusion in the end times postulated by the forces of Antichrist. He will do anything he can to deliver the world from knowledge of God, even if this means resorting to alternative explanations such as ET's.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

if we are the product of random evolution .the big bang , primordial soup , mrna,dna the rock the tree,monkey.Abiogenesis ( word for the belief that the first living thing was crea...ummm.. Accidented fromcompletely non living matter)Besides the fact that Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation over 100 years ago; I want to know what did the first living thing evolutionists and athiest believe crawled from the primordial soup eat?

Jesus' appears in my dump, worth $6,000
Cameras catch 'Son of God' around the toilet, images sold on eBay

Did they even make you try out for the debate team? Or did they just hand you the leader position right after you showed up?

I'm not going to let you get away with that. Let us suppose I was born blind. How would you go about proving the existance of the Sun to me? There would be evidence in that I can feel heat, but I could argue that you are generating this heat from some sort of machine. All you could give me is verbal testimony and argumentation, but you could not prove to me that the Sun existed. If you can, please do so. I was born blind. Please prove to me the Sun exists.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

Dude... I'm not a Christian, and all... but you're coming off all wrong. The only product of all your effort thus far is a general consensus amongst those you're debating... that consensus being that you're a nutcase.

Jesus' appears in my dump, worth $6,000
Cameras catch 'Son of God' around the toilet, images sold on eBay

Isn't this an argument against you? I mean if your god made this person born blind, that is exactly how your god made him right? So isn't it just the same as your god making us rational, so as we do not see the proof of your arguments. Or are you really going to blame the blind man for being oh so blind. Don't worry too much over it I mean Science might find a way to fix blindness.

Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.

I'm not going to let you get away with that. Let us suppose I was born blind. How would you go about proving the existance of the Sun to me? There would be evidence in that I can feel heat, but I could argue that you are generating this heat from some sort of machine. All you could give me is verbal testimony and argumentation, but you could not prove to me that the Sun existed. If you can, please do so. I was born blind. Please prove to me the Sun exists.

And if you could see, how would you know that my sun wasn't some computer generated image? You prove the sun exists using the same formula scientists use to prove that distant stars exist. Can't see those either.

And if you could see, how would you know that my sun wasn't some computer generated image? You prove the sun exists using the same formula scientists use to prove that distant stars exist. Can't see those either.

Since I am blind, I can't see the formula you speak of. It was invented by men who CAN see. You can't prove to me either the existance of distant stars OR the Sun. Your argument only hurt your case. Also, we have super telescopes that show us distant stars. Since I was born blind, I can't look through those telescopes. You have failed to prove to me the existance of the Sun, and no amount of argumentation will suffice.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

Sir Loin. You've only been a member for a few hours and are already trolling in overdrive and receiving an official warning.

Your posts are trolling and are against forum rules.

2.1. Antagonism. Antagonism is giving one or more members a hard time. Cases typically comprise a series of provocations, each not necessarily sanctionable in its own right. Incidents can include, but are by no means limited to the following:

Slander/Libel

Clear intent to not argue a position, but to merely attack a person

Trolling

Abuse

Bullying

There is a link to the rules at the top of each webpage. Please read them.

We really do not like to ban people from the forums (really, we don't!), so please abide by the forum rules.

The technical definition of atheism was given by men who were in spiritual darkness themselves.

That's absolute nonsense. Are you saying that for every language spoken today there was a bunch of guys that sat around and came up with the same definition for different words? It's origin is in ancient greek! And besides, you talk about a 'technical' definition, what other kinds of definitions are you refering to? Why are they not in any dictionaries?

'In early Ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (ἄθεος, from the privative ἀ- + θεός "god&quot meant "godless". The word acquired an additional meaning in the 5th century BCE, "severing relations with the gods" or "denying the gods, ungodly", with more active connotations than ἀσεβής (asebēs) or "impious". Modern translations of classical texts sometimes render atheos as "atheistic". As an abstract noun, there was also ἀθεότης (atheotēs), "atheism". Cicero transliterated the Greek word into the Latin atheos. The term found frequent use in the debate between early Christians and pagans, with each side attributing it, in the pejorative sense, to the other.'

-Wikipedia, source: Drachmann, Atheism in Pagan Antiquity

These days the word 'atheist' is both an adjective and a noun. One calls oneself an atheist/Atheist if one is atheist, that is 'without gods'.

"This is the real world, stupid." - Charlie Brooker

"It is necessary to be bold. Some people can be reasoned into sense, and others must be shocked into it. Say a bold thing that will stagger them, and they will begin to think." - Thomas Paine

Troll alert! Troll activity is picking up. Secure your feed bags!With the recent rise in troll activity, I'd like to remind people to please not respond to them. I'd hate to see the forum decend to pointless debate with folks who just want to cause trouble. Plus, it's so hard to catch up on days worth of posts when there's all that junk!

Jesus' appears in my dump, worth $6,000
Cameras catch 'Son of God' around the toilet, images sold on eBay

show me in which of my postsI did some of that 1. Slander/Libel 2. Clear intent to not argue a position, but to merely attack a person 3. Trolling 4. Abuse 5. Bullying 6.Antagonism.

Sir Loin wrote:

Dude... I'm not a Christian, and all... but you're coming off all wrong. The only product of all your effort thus far is a general consensus amongst those you're debating... that consensus being that you're a nutcase.

It could have been the nutcase part...

or

Sir Loin wrote:

Ouch. my Head hurt.I Need A beer. and some hot primordial soup,

You posted this 3 times on the same thread. I believe however that is was probably a computer error at least the first double post.

However the third time you posted

Sir Loin wrote:

Ouch. my Head hurt.I Need A beer. and some hot primordial soup,

and some Jesus Toast, I Am Not A Religious Person . my high IQ do not let me believe on any BS

Which to me I don't consider spamming, since I think you were adding something to it and you wanted people to understand what the second part was in association with, but I might suggest maybe you should have quoted yourself to prevent other people as seeing as spam.

Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.

Rave, I agree with the definitions you gave in that they are the technical definitions, but they don't address the cause of atheism which is what I was talking about. Your definitions technical.

"The highest attainment of ancient man is acknowledged in the teaching of Socrates and Plato that there is not anything more important than the true perception of God, which perception can only be given by God Himself. In the language of contemporary thought, this implied a theoretical recognition of the inadequacies and limitations of natural, human means for perceiving the truth of God, and a recognition of divine Revelation as the only adequate method of perceiving this truth".--- Ivan Andreyev.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

I believe, though I can't prove it here, that the Masons are behind all the modern attacks on Christianity. They have been on an agenda for generations to destroy Christianity because we pose a threat to their leader the devil/Antichrist. I believe the Masons are behind the modern phenomenon of the "Jesus Mythicist" campaign. They know its BS but they don't care. They have an agenda to deceive and mislead people. I believe most, if not all of the liberals behind the Jesus Seminar are Masons, and I believe the Masons are the ones funding these type of organizations. They are also behind the modern atheist movement, evolution (even though they know evolution is fasle, they have to make it appear as real science in order to strenghten their case against Christian theism), the UFO movement (the Intelligent Design movement is the conspiratorial work in order to replace evolution and give the creation credit to extra-terrestrials. I'm not sure about this but it is a theory. Satan always wanted to be worshipped as the Creator). This would explain God away. The modern Occult phenomenon, the rise of Witchcraft in Western Europe and America (southern California has the highest concentration of witches in the world), the liberal protestant/Catholic movement (women priests, the denial of historical biblical doctrines, false ecumenism, etc), the rise of UFO movements and interests (Raelians, etc. UFO cults are rising up all over the place), the "Jesus Myth" theory postulated in the 19th century was Masonic in origin I believe, the destruction of the Catholic Church through the flagrant blasphemies of the Vatican II Council, which resulted in over 20 million Catholics in America alone leaving the Church (this is a well known fact that Masons were behind this council, and are also penetrating the Vatican). The WCC (World Council of Churches) was created by Masons. All these ecumenical gatherings between the leaders of the world religions are working on "cooperation" and "tolerance" between the religions, and this will result in the pseudo-one world religion which will work on par with the one world order. These are dark and evil forces working behind the scenes in order to deceive, lie and write history after their own ambitions. They want to replace Christianity with a "new" false form of Christianity that will appeal to our modern apostate society. They are going to initiate a one world order (by the way, all the founders of the Republican party were Masons), and a one world religion where Antichrist will sit as absolute ruler. They have hijacked our governments and are working behind the scenes right now in order to prepair society for this evil end. We will soon lose our Constitutional liberties (all the atheist organizations working to elimnate Theism from society are Masonic and/or funded by Masons), the abortion movement is Masonic in that they are commited to decreasing the population. Pro-abortion organizations (Planned Parenthood, etc) are Masonic or funded by the Masons, same sex marriage was initiated in order to destroy the moral fabric of society and the family structure. These evil forces are the angents and apostles of Antichrist. They are preparing society for his coming. The Masons are working to make things seem so bad in society and the world, that we will run to the Antichrist when he comes because he will offer world peace, world unity and a one world religion, and he will be the ruler of it all. The good news is that they lose in the end. There's a good book that talks about the one world religion called Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

Moderator, do you have any idea why only 2/3 of a post fits on my screen? It's like it is pushed too far over to the right. I can't see the whole post when I try to read it. It's like this web page is too big or something. It doesn't all fit on my screen.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

Rave, I agree with the definitions you gave in that they are the technical definitions, but they don't address the cause of atheism which is what I was talking about. Your definitions technical.

I ask again, what other types of definitions are there? What is your definition? The issue I addressed was the meaning and etymology of the word, not what 'causes' what it means in people.

Apotheon wrote:

I don't want to scare anyone. This is just my theory ok?

I believe, though I can't prove it here, that the Masons are behind all the modern attacks on Christianity. They have been on an agenda for generations to destroy Christianity because we pose a threat to their leader the devil/Antichrist. I believe the Masons are behind the modern phenomenon of the "Jesus Mythicist" campaign. They know its BS but they don't care. They have an agenda to deceive and mislead people. I believe most, if not all of the liberals behind the Jesus Seminar are Masons, and I believe the Masons are the ones funding these type of organizations. They are also behind the modern atheist movement, evolution (even though they know evolution is fasle, they have to make it appear as real science in order to strenghten their case against Christian theism), the UFO movement (the Intelligent Design movement is the conspiratorial work in order to replace evolution and give the creation credit to extra-terrestrials. I'm not sure about this but it is a theory. Satan always wanted to be worshipped as the Creator). This would explain God away. The modern Occult phenomenon, the rise of Witchcraft in Western Europe and America (southern California has the highest concentration of witches in the world), the liberal protestant/Catholic movement (women priests, the denial of historical biblical doctrines, false ecumenism, etc), the rise of UFO movements and interests (Raelians, etc. UFO cults are rising up all over the place), the "Jesus Myth" theory postulated in the 19th century was Masonic in origin I believe, the destruction of the Catholic Church through the flagrant blasphemies of the Vatican II Council, which resulted in over 20 million Catholics in America alone leaving the Church (this is a well known fact that Masons were behind this council, and are also penetrating the Vatican). The WCC (World Council of Churches) was created by Masons. All these ecumenical gatherings between the leaders of the world religions are working on "cooperation" and "tolerance" between the religions, and this will result in the pseudo-one world religion which will work on par with the one world order. These are dark and evil forces working behind the scenes in order to deceive, lie and write history after their own ambitions. They want to replace Christianity with a "new" false form of Christianity that will appeal to our modern apostate society. They are going to initiate a one world order (by the way, all the founders of the Republican party were Masons), and a one world religion where Antichrist will sit as absolute ruler. They have hijacked our governments and are working behind the scenes right now in order to prepair society for this evil end. We will soon lose our Constitutional liberties (all the atheist organizations working to elimnate Theism from society are Masonic and/or funded by Masons), the abortion movement is Masonic in that they are commited to decreasing the population. Pro-abortion organizations (Planned Parenthood, etc) are Masonic or funded by the Masons, same sex marriage was initiated in order to destroy the moral fabric of society and the family structure. These evil forces are the angents and apostles of Antichrist. They are preparing society for his coming. The Masons are working to make things seem so bad in society and the world, that we will run to the Antichrist when he comes because he will offer world peace, world unity and a one world religion, and he will be the ruler of it all. The good news is that they lose in the end. There's a good book that talks about the one world religion called Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

The only thing about this that scares me is that there are people out there dumb enough to believe this.

You call this a theory, so where is your evidence to back it up? If you have no evidence then all you have is an empty hypothesis.

How do you know that the Masons 'leader' is "the devil/Antichrist"? I happen to know 3 Freemasons - one is Christian, two are closet atheists.

You suggest that most/all of the scholars of the Jesus Seminar are Masons, and that the Masons are responsible for the Jesus Mythicist idea - this makes no sense as the concensus of the Seminar is that Jesus was an historical person, whereas many/most people who subscribe to the Jesus Mythicist point of view don't believe Jesus ever existed as a real person.

Why do you think/how do you know that the Masons' agenda is to deceive and mislead people?

How do you suggest that the Masons are 'behind evolution'? The fact that life forms evolve was considered favourably for at least couple hundred years BEFORE Charles Darwin proposed the first widely accepted theory of the PROCESS behind evolution - Natural Selection. To understand this you should look up other proposed processes, such as Lamarkian evolution, and see how Natural Selection compares. These days evolution is accepted as FACT by 99.99% of scientists and high-school students all over the world. Please explain how the Masons are 'responsible' for this.

How do you know Satan has always wanted to be worshipped as the creator? Have you been talking to him lately?

Do you actually believe these people are really witches in the mythological sense? They're just a bunch of hippies who get off on worshipping vegetables!

What rock-solid evidence proves that Masons were 'behind' the Vatican II Council, and what polls and surveys can you quote to show this is 'well known'?

Quote:

They want to replace Christianity with a "new" false form of Christianity that will appeal to our modern apostate society.

Hmm, and how exactly would this differ from the "current" false religion of Christianity, or any other religion?

Again, assuming you mean the Republican party of the US, how do you know all the founders were Masons?

Why are the Masons funding movements to remove religion from government, if they themselves are 'hijacking' governments to install one world religion?

Why are they commited to decreasing the poulation?

Why do you think if everything gets so bad 'everyone' will 'run to the Antichrist'? How do you know they won't turn to other religions or leaders?

These are all very amusing claims, Apotheon. I suppose next you'll be telling us the Masons are responsible for Dungeons and Dragon, and Devil's Food Cake?

If the Masons ARE all that you propose, then we indeed have alot from them to be thankful for.

Please answer all of my questions, point for point.

"This is the real world, stupid." - Charlie Brooker

"It is necessary to be bold. Some people can be reasoned into sense, and others must be shocked into it. Say a bold thing that will stagger them, and they will begin to think." - Thomas Paine

some where in this planet sits Apotheon.sits on his dad basement wearing a "tin foil hat,"some times he or she goes out , and some times he or she only looks @the windowdrinking kool aid and reading about conspiracy theory .

Jesus' appears in my dump, worth $6,000
Cameras catch 'Son of God' around the toilet, images sold on eBay

Raven, your statement that evolution is accepted by 99.99% of scientists is FAR over stated! And is part of the BS YOU have been indoctrinated into believing. That's what the Massons and Communists WANT you to think! Many, many scientists have problems with evolution but they can't raise those issues because for fear of losing their teachings jobs. This has been well documented. Also I heard that of the top 1,000 US scientists, 40% of them deny or question evolution. The others just aren't honest enough to admit their views due to fears of suspencion or termination. The Discovery Institute has a list of over 300 PhD scientists who utterly reject evolution. You have to understand that the only reason it is still be taught and promoted, is because its the only naturalistic explanation they have because they rule out a priori the supernaural. They have nothing at this point to fall back on in terms of a naturalistic/antisupernaturalistic alternative. Science is not the honest field it once was. We have been duped and lied to by the Masons and Communists. They have lied and deceived us. You are a product of that deception. Their figures of evolution teachers is not accurate because they have an agenda to remove Christianity from the planet. And ignorant people like you are helping them do it.

Also, the "majority" does not always equal the truth (argumentum ad populum fallacy). The "majority once believed thr world was flat.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

some where in this planet sits Apotheon.sits on his dad basement wearing a "tin foil hat,"some times he or she goes out , and some times he or she only looks @the windowdrinking kool aid and reading about conspiracy theory .

Rave, I know the Jesus Seminar accepts the historical Jesus. My point is that they have reinvented him into just a man. They have stripped him of his deity in order to destroy the heart of Christianity. They are heretics and apostles of Satan.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

Rave Said: How do you know that the Masons 'leader' is "the devil/Antichrist"? I happen to know 3 Freemasons - one is Christian, two are closet atheists

Response: Ok, a little history lesson here. Masonry began in 43 AD. It rose as a reaction against Christianity with the goal to extinguish it from the world. They have been unsuccessful for 2,000 years because they are fighting someone that has power far beyond their capacity to ever comprehend, the Lord Jesus Christ. The York Rite of Masonry is for "Christians," but this is another one of their deceptions. Once they get initiated and elevated to higher levels, they tell them the truth about Masonry, Lucifer and Albert Pike. Albert Pike was the leader of American Masonry and World Masonry. He stated in his book "Morals and Dogmas, in page 213 that "every Masonic temple is a temple of religion". In 1889 Pike addressed all 23 Councils of Masonry and told them that Masonry is a religion, and should maintain the purity of the Luciferian doctrine. He said that Lucifer is God, and true religion worships Lucifer. Pike also started the KKK. Masonry is extrememely anti-Christian. Master Masons are forbidden to end prayers in "Jesus name." They are threatened to having their lodge closed and charter revoked if they pray in the name of Jesus. Instead, they end their prayers with the phrase "so mote it be," the same phrase used in Witchcraft.

The Vatican

It is established fact that Masons have penetrated the Catholic Church. They were behind the abomitable renovations produced by the Vatican II Council. There are many sources proving this by many writers. Its even known by educated Catholics. There are three videos I recommend you watch.

The Communist and Freemasonic Infiltration of the Catholic Church, by Dr. James Wardner.

Freemasonry's Vast Influence Over America, by Dr. James Wardner.

Abortion, Rock Music and Freemasonry Exposed, b Michael Dimond.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

I said the York Rite is for Christians. I meant to say they allow Christians. Clinton is a member of the York Rite, and Bush Senior is a member of the Scottish Rite. He is a 33rd degree Mason. Bob Dole is a Mason, William F. Buckley, there's even evidence that Billy Graham and Pat Robertson are Masons. Many people in our government are Masons.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur