This is all a futile exercise in my opinion. In years to come all people will remember is a season that started very promising indeed with form swinging from one team to the other from race weekend to race weekend, until the last quarter from the Asian leg where Ferrari suffered reliability misfortune. Except for Monza there is not a race where Ferrari's pace was found lacking, and even that was probably due to set-up. If anything it was Mercedes who even found themselves down as the 3rd best team in some races. Ferrari fans themselves will be using this year as evidence that the team can indeed keep up in-season development with the likes of Redbull and Mercedes if not surpassed them. They will know that in 2017 Ferrari had a great car. Vettel and the top brass all agree their car is equal if not better than Mercedes.

Agreed.

I'm not seeing the use of all this hair splitting going on all season. Who the hell cares if one car is a bit better than the other? We have had the closest contested season between 2 teams since 2012. That should matter a lot more and is what most people will remember. When we look back I'm sure some people will say Merc was still the best car, but some will also say Ferrari threw it away and could have won. Guaranteed.

This is all a futile exercise in my opinion. In years to come all people will remember is a season that started very promising indeed with form swinging from one team to the other from race weekend to race weekend, until the last quarter from the Asian leg where Ferrari suffered reliability misfortune. Except for Monza there is not a race where Ferrari's pace was found lacking, and even that was probably due to set-up. If anything it was Mercedes who even found themselves down as the 3rd best team in some races. Ferrari fans themselves will be using this year as evidence that the team can indeed keep up in-season development with the likes of Redbull and Mercedes if not surpassed them. They will know that in 2017 Ferrari had a great car. Vettel and the top brass all agree their car is equal if not better than Mercedes.

Agreed.

I'm not seeing the use of all this hair splitting going on all season. Who the hell cares if one car is a bit better than the other? We have had the closest contested season between 2 teams since 2012. That should matter a lot more and is what most people will remember. When we look back I'm sure some people will say Merc was still the best car, but some will also say Ferrari threw it away and could have won. Guaranteed.

Agree with both of you

It's a pity with what has happened in the last 3 races. It would be around even in points with 4 races to play. What a great end to the season for all fans it could have been. Same happened last year but it feels extra special when it's two different teams involved.

In a perfect season (no team or driver mistakes), Hamilton should/would have won in Australia, Bahrain, Russia, Baku, Austria; and took a podium in Monaco and Hungary.

Australia: Mercedes should have waited to clear Verstappen before pitting Hamilton. It's not like Vettel would have ever passed him on track anyway.Bahrain: Lewis pressed the DRS button too early in qualifying, that would have got him pole. Then he wouldn't have got a penalty for holding up Ricciardo.Russia: Hamilton only needed to match Bottas' performance to win the race.Monaco: Ferrari was too fast but a podium was definitely possibleBaku: headrestAustria: Hamilton should have qualified on pole, then not get a gearbox penalty, and win the raceHungary: Hamilton outqualifies Bottas and finishes on the podium. Maybe Lewis could have even won with Vettel's steering issues.

It was perfectly possible for Hamilton's results in the first 13 races to be 11 wins and 2 third places, which would have put his WDC total on 305 points after Monza. The championship would have been long over then before Vettel and Ferrari began making mistakes Singapore-present.

People never nitpick the season of the driver who wins the WDC to see how they could/should have performed better. They only nitpick the season of the driver who didn't win.

Now do that For Ferrari and you'll find that they could have won many races that they didn't if they were "perfect" too. Of course you didn't do that for Ferrari because your agenda is to make it seem like Vettel was driving a Torro Rosso or something...

In a perfect season, assuming no failures or mistakes, Vettel should have won in Malaysia and Singapore. If we're assuming no mistakes by other drivers, too, then a podium was up for grabs in Canada, Baku and GB. Let's call it 2nd in Baku, as Bottas wasn't that good. I'm undecided on Japan as I think there's not enough data, but given the qualifying gap I'm assuming 2nd was the best available there, since Bottas wasn't that impressive. I don't see Vettel winning any other races. Which gives Vettel an extra 74 points by my reckoning. But, of course, he'd lose e.g. Australia and Bahrain if Lewis had gained his theoretical maximum there, which would reduce that to 60 extra. Which would put him on 307 after Japan, by my (admittedly hasty) calcs.

No that's not what he did. He basically sets Lewis winning from pole as a baseline: meaning anything less than that should be counted as some kind of missed opportunity. He essentially is suggesting that any race where it was theoretically possible for him and/or the team to do better should be seen as underperforming

By that rationale, Vettel should have won in China, he should have won in spain, he should have won in Russia, he should have won at Spa and yes, Singapore, Malaysia and probably Japan. That's not to mention Baku, Canada or Silverstone. His whole way of looking at it is absurdly one-sided and that's the point I'm making.

Autosport have done a calculation of perfect seasons that has Vettel 55 points in front.

Can you give the breakdown or link the article? I'd be interested to see as a 114 point swing seems a bit much to me just off the top of my head. I can only assume they've done Vettel's perfect season but not also taken into account Hamilton's lost points?

Edit: just done some rough calculations and the most I can make it is 101 points gained for Vettel when being generous in a few instances (e.g. assuming he should have besten Kimi in Britain and got 2nd place), and that's before taking Hamilton's lost points into account. I may have missed some stuff but a 114 net gain seems impossible to me.

They only allow so many views so I have to be selective which ones I read, I just read it in the title, I didn't feel it important enough to read.

The model is still not complete but there are numerous cross references:-

Bottas - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Vettel - Kimi - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Even as a rookie the numbers are very favourable for Hamilton in respect to Vettel and would very much predict Hamilton beating Bottas.

If rewritten with quantifiers:Bottas > Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Vettel > Kimi = Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Since what you're ultimately trying to get to is using team mate comparisons to judge the relative abilities between 2 drivers who've never been paired. The first equation, prior to this year before they were team mates, could've been seen as Bottas possibly being as good as Hamilton. i.e. He beat Massa, who was also beaten by Alonso, who tied Hamilton.

Now that there's almost a whole season to compare Bottas to Hamilton directly as team mates we know he's not as good, but this shows how trying to make any kind definitive statement about how two drivers will compare from that A>B<C<D type of logic is pointless. And your second example becomes even more strained by adding a fifth driver to the mix.

Even if you say Bottas didn't beat Massa by as much as Alonso did so he was bound to be worse than Hamilton you're losing the context of driver abilities varying from year to year as well as team dynamics. (Alonso certainly got preferable treatment at Ferrari while things were even between drivers at Williams)

Edit: Messed up quotes

You make an assumption here that Alonso tied with Hamilton, and I am saying that Alonso beat Massa by a bigger margin than Bottas did.

All in all then according to you we can't judge anything and in particular between Vettel and Hamilton, how do people actually come to the conclusion which is the fastest car when cars seem to be reasonably close?

The model is still not complete but there are numerous cross references:-

Bottas - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Vettel - Kimi - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Even as a rookie the numbers are very favourable for Hamilton in respect to Vettel and would very much predict Hamilton beating Bottas.

If rewritten with quantifiers:Bottas > Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Vettel > Kimi = Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Since what you're ultimately trying to get to is using team mate comparisons to judge the relative abilities between 2 drivers who've never been paired. The first equation, prior to this year before they were team mates, could've been seen as Bottas possibly being as good as Hamilton. i.e. He beat Massa, who was also beaten by Alonso, who tied Hamilton.

Now that there's almost a whole season to compare Bottas to Hamilton directly as team mates we know he's not as good, but this shows how trying to make any kind definitive statement about how two drivers will compare from that A>B<C<D type of logic is pointless. And your second example becomes even more strained by adding a fifth driver to the mix.

Even if you say Bottas didn't beat Massa by as much as Alonso did so he was bound to be worse than Hamilton you're losing the context of driver abilities varying from year to year as well as team dynamics. (Alonso certainly got preferable treatment at Ferrari while things were even between drivers at Williams)

Edit: Messed up quotes

You make an assumption here that Alonso tied with Hamilton, and I am saying that Alonso beat Massa by a bigger margin than Bottas did.

All in all then according to you we can't judge anything and in particular between Vettel and Hamilton, how do people actually come to the conclusion which is the fastest car when cars seem to be reasonably close?

Well, first off, Alonso did tie Hamilton. Lewis came out ahead on count back.

But the overall gist is that contorted comparisons like those above are no more accurate than the eyeball test when it comes to rating drivers in a non-spec series. It just gives a veneer of objectivity to a subjective topic, but doesn't really have any validity to it. See the above post where Hill beat Prost, who beat Mansell, who beat Hill. Circular logic at its best and meaningless despite sometimes bearing out. It's just mental masturbation for people who need to have some "fact" to "prove" their supported driver is superior.

The model is still not complete but there are numerous cross references:-

Bottas - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Vettel - Kimi - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Even as a rookie the numbers are very favourable for Hamilton in respect to Vettel and would very much predict Hamilton beating Bottas.

If rewritten with quantifiers:Bottas > Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Vettel > Kimi = Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Since what you're ultimately trying to get to is using team mate comparisons to judge the relative abilities between 2 drivers who've never been paired. The first equation, prior to this year before they were team mates, could've been seen as Bottas possibly being as good as Hamilton. i.e. He beat Massa, who was also beaten by Alonso, who tied Hamilton.

Now that there's almost a whole season to compare Bottas to Hamilton directly as team mates we know he's not as good, but this shows how trying to make any kind definitive statement about how two drivers will compare from that A>B<C<D type of logic is pointless. And your second example becomes even more strained by adding a fifth driver to the mix.

Even if you say Bottas didn't beat Massa by as much as Alonso did so he was bound to be worse than Hamilton you're losing the context of driver abilities varying from year to year as well as team dynamics. (Alonso certainly got preferable treatment at Ferrari while things were even between drivers at Williams)

Edit: Messed up quotes

You make an assumption here that Alonso tied with Hamilton, and I am saying that Alonso beat Massa by a bigger margin than Bottas did.

All in all then according to you we can't judge anything and in particular between Vettel and Hamilton, how do people actually come to the conclusion which is the fastest car when cars seem to be reasonably close?

Well, first off, Alonso did tie Hamilton. Lewis came out ahead on count back.

But the overall gist is that contorted comparisons like those above are no more accurate than the eyeball test when it comes to rating drivers in a non-spec series. It just gives a veneer of objectivity to a subjective topic, but doesn't really have any validity to it. See the above post where Hill beat Prost, who beat Mansell, who beat Hill. Circular logic at its best and meaningless despite sometimes bearing out. It's just mental masturbation for people who need to have some "fact" to "prove" their supported driver is superior.

This has nothing to do with WDC standings but who is fastest, Ricciardo presently has more points that Verstappen for instance, but who's faster?

Eyeball test is like I said before just a gut feeling thrown in perhaps with what you believe or want to believe, numbers are numbers and have no emotion no matter if you think differently if they happen to throw up a result that you may not like.

I think you got Hill mixed up with Rosberg if you are referring to a previous post, Hill never beat Prost, Prost beat both Rosberg and Mansell so that was never circular anyway.

The model is still not complete but there are numerous cross references:-

Bottas - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Vettel - Kimi - Massa - Alonso - Hamilton

Even as a rookie the numbers are very favourable for Hamilton in respect to Vettel and would very much predict Hamilton beating Bottas.

If rewritten with quantifiers:Bottas > Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Vettel > Kimi = Massa < Alonso = Hamilton

Since what you're ultimately trying to get to is using team mate comparisons to judge the relative abilities between 2 drivers who've never been paired. The first equation, prior to this year before they were team mates, could've been seen as Bottas possibly being as good as Hamilton. i.e. He beat Massa, who was also beaten by Alonso, who tied Hamilton.

Now that there's almost a whole season to compare Bottas to Hamilton directly as team mates we know he's not as good, but this shows how trying to make any kind definitive statement about how two drivers will compare from that A>B<C<D type of logic is pointless. And your second example becomes even more strained by adding a fifth driver to the mix.

Even if you say Bottas didn't beat Massa by as much as Alonso did so he was bound to be worse than Hamilton you're losing the context of driver abilities varying from year to year as well as team dynamics. (Alonso certainly got preferable treatment at Ferrari while things were even between drivers at Williams)

Edit: Messed up quotes

You make an assumption here that Alonso tied with Hamilton, and I am saying that Alonso beat Massa by a bigger margin than Bottas did.

All in all then according to you we can't judge anything and in particular between Vettel and Hamilton, how do people actually come to the conclusion which is the fastest car when cars seem to be reasonably close?

Well, first off, Alonso did tie Hamilton. Lewis came out ahead on count back.

But the overall gist is that contorted comparisons like those above are no more accurate than the eyeball test when it comes to rating drivers in a non-spec series. It just gives a veneer of objectivity to a subjective topic, but doesn't really have any validity to it. See the above post where Hill beat Prost, who beat Mansell, who beat Hill. Circular logic at its best and meaningless despite sometimes bearing out. It's just mental masturbation for people who need to have some "fact" to "prove" their supported driver is superior.

This has nothing to do with WDC standings but who is fastest, Ricciardo presently has more points that Verstappen for instance, but who's faster?

Eyeball test is like I said before just a gut feeling thrown in perhaps with what you believe or want to believe, numbers are numbers and have no emotion no matter if you think differently if they happen to throw up a result that you may not like.

I think you got Hill mixed up with Rosberg if you are referring to a previous post, Hill never beat Prost, Prost beat both Rosberg and Mansell so that was never circular anyway.

Yes I did mix up Hill and Rosberg but it doesn't disprove that doing that sort of comparison is meaningless.

And if points and WDC standing isn't what this is about but who is faster then what are you going by to determine who beat who? Sure looks like you're using WDC standings to me. Again circular logic.

Since what you're ultimately trying to get to is using team mate comparisons to judge the relative abilities between 2 drivers who've never been paired. The first equation, prior to this year before they were team mates, could've been seen as Bottas possibly being as good as Hamilton. i.e. He beat Massa, who was also beaten by Alonso, who tied Hamilton.

Now that there's almost a whole season to compare Bottas to Hamilton directly as team mates we know he's not as good, but this shows how trying to make any kind definitive statement about how two drivers will compare from that A>B<C<D type of logic is pointless. And your second example becomes even more strained by adding a fifth driver to the mix.

Even if you say Bottas didn't beat Massa by as much as Alonso did so he was bound to be worse than Hamilton you're losing the context of driver abilities varying from year to year as well as team dynamics. (Alonso certainly got preferable treatment at Ferrari while things were even between drivers at Williams)

Edit: Messed up quotes

You make an assumption here that Alonso tied with Hamilton, and I am saying that Alonso beat Massa by a bigger margin than Bottas did.

All in all then according to you we can't judge anything and in particular between Vettel and Hamilton, how do people actually come to the conclusion which is the fastest car when cars seem to be reasonably close?

Well, first off, Alonso did tie Hamilton. Lewis came out ahead on count back.

But the overall gist is that contorted comparisons like those above are no more accurate than the eyeball test when it comes to rating drivers in a non-spec series. It just gives a veneer of objectivity to a subjective topic, but doesn't really have any validity to it. See the above post where Hill beat Prost, who beat Mansell, who beat Hill. Circular logic at its best and meaningless despite sometimes bearing out. It's just mental masturbation for people who need to have some "fact" to "prove" their supported driver is superior.

This has nothing to do with WDC standings but who is fastest, Ricciardo presently has more points that Verstappen for instance, but who's faster?

Eyeball test is like I said before just a gut feeling thrown in perhaps with what you believe or want to believe, numbers are numbers and have no emotion no matter if you think differently if they happen to throw up a result that you may not like.

I think you got Hill mixed up with Rosberg if you are referring to a previous post, Hill never beat Prost, Prost beat both Rosberg and Mansell so that was never circular anyway.

Yes I did mix up Hill and Rosberg but it doesn't disprove that doing that sort of comparison is meaningless.

And if points and WDC standing isn't what this is about but who is faster then what are you going by to determine who beat who? Sure looks like you're using WDC standings to me. Again circular logic.

I feel you've come into this half way through, this is just performance data of who is the fastest driver, nothing to do with WDC points or titles.

Autosport have done a calculation of perfect seasons that has Vettel 55 points in front.

Can you give the breakdown or link the article? I'd be interested to see as a 114 point swing seems a bit much to me just off the top of my head. I can only assume they've done Vettel's perfect season but not also taken into account Hamilton's lost points?

Edit: just done some rough calculations and the most I can make it is 101 points gained for Vettel when being generous in a few instances (e.g. assuming he should have besten Kimi in Britain and got 2nd place), and that's before taking Hamilton's lost points into account. I may have missed some stuff but a 114 net gain seems impossible to me.

They only allow so many views so I have to be selective which ones I read, I just read it in the title, I didn't feel it important enough to read.

Sergio Marchionne has “tremendous confidence” that Ferrari will put in a strong finish to this season despite their title hopes obliterated by reliability issues.

Both Scuderia drivers have suffered engine issues in recent weeks, however, it is Sebastian Vettel’s troubles that have hit the hardest.

A broken spark plug last time out in Japan meant the German fell 59 points adrift of Lewis Hamilton in the race for the World title.

And although Ferrari’s chances of championship success are all but over, Marchionne hailed the progress that the Scuderia have made this season.

“The season is not lost, there’s still all to do,” Reuters quotes him as having told Class CNBC television.

“I won’t talk of bad luck, I don’t believe in it.

“The important thing is to not lose the confidence that has brought us so far.

“I’m delighted with what the team has done and I have tremendous confidence that in the next four races we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap.”

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

He also says "we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap", I believe the majority of fans believes that the Ferrari is good enough car to compete, their down on Q3 mode, PU power and reliability, but hopefully will be even better in 2018

Sergio Marchionne has “tremendous confidence” that Ferrari will put in a strong finish to this season despite their title hopes obliterated by reliability issues.

Both Scuderia drivers have suffered engine issues in recent weeks, however, it is Sebastian Vettel’s troubles that have hit the hardest.

A broken spark plug last time out in Japan meant the German fell 59 points adrift of Lewis Hamilton in the race for the World title.

And although Ferrari’s chances of championship success are all but over, Marchionne hailed the progress that the Scuderia have made this season.

“The season is not lost, there’s still all to do,” Reuters quotes him as having told Class CNBC television.

“I won’t talk of bad luck, I don’t believe in it.

“The important thing is to not lose the confidence that has brought us so far.

“I’m delighted with what the team has done and I have tremendous confidence that in the next four races we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap.”

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

He also says "we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap", I believe the majority of fans believes that the Ferrari is good enough car to compete, their down on Q3 mode, PU power and reliability, but hopefully will be even better in 2018

Ferrari have not managed to produce a strong car for two years running in a quite a while. Whilst I am hoping for them to break that trend, I'm looking towards Red Bull, Renault and McLaren to up their game next year!

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

While he could have a point with regards to race pace, you have to put into context what is being said and who is saying it. This is Ferari's big chief. No matter what he actually thinks, he has to give out an aura of faith and trust, because verything he says trickles down and impacts all the employees.

I would much rather look at what's in front of us than to believe blindly those who are deeply invested in it.

Ferrari have not managed to produce a strong car for two years running in a quite a while. Whilst I am hoping for them to break that trend, I'm looking towards Red Bull, Renault and McLaren to up their game next year!

Ferrari have not managed to produce a car this strong for almost ten years, and they haven't been able to keep up in the development department throughout the season in a long time either. They seem to have made strides in both design, delivery and execution, and continued development. This should give rise to some optimism.

Maybe they went on the agressive side for this season but they have been able to close the gap with Mercedes, so it wasn't for nothing. If they build on this for 2018, they should be in there. But in F1, nothing is certain of course.

As for the other teams, I think it'll still be too soon for Renault and McLaren and aside from question marks over the engines I also still have doubts about their capabilities of developing a not just good, but fantastic chassis.

RBR could be in there but Renault have to take another significant step forwards on the PU front.

Sergio Marchionne has “tremendous confidence” that Ferrari will put in a strong finish to this season despite their title hopes obliterated by reliability issues.

Both Scuderia drivers have suffered engine issues in recent weeks, however, it is Sebastian Vettel’s troubles that have hit the hardest.

A broken spark plug last time out in Japan meant the German fell 59 points adrift of Lewis Hamilton in the race for the World title.

And although Ferrari’s chances of championship success are all but over, Marchionne hailed the progress that the Scuderia have made this season.

“The season is not lost, there’s still all to do,” Reuters quotes him as having told Class CNBC television.

“I won’t talk of bad luck, I don’t believe in it.

“The important thing is to not lose the confidence that has brought us so far.

“I’m delighted with what the team has done and I have tremendous confidence that in the next four races we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap.”

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

He also says "we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap", I believe the majority of fans believes that the Ferrari is good enough car to compete, their down on Q3 mode, PU power and reliability, but hopefully will be even better in 2018

He was referencing the gap in the WDC points table there.......not a gap in performance

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

While he could have a point with regards to race pace, you have to put into context what is being said and who is saying it. This is Ferari's big chief. No matter what he actually thinks, he has to give out an aura of faith and trust, because verything he says trickles down and impacts all the employees.

I would much rather look at what's in front of us than to believe blindly those who are deeply invested in it.

What's in front of us?

Singapore - Ferrari blew Merc away, shot themselves in the foot.Malaysia - Easy pole for Vettel if not for the breakdown and with the Ferrari race pace he'd have been sitting pretty.Japan - A slow Mercedes race performance would have led to an excellent chance for Vettel to have won seeing how the Red Bull fared.

Sergio Marchionne has “tremendous confidence” that Ferrari will put in a strong finish to this season despite their title hopes obliterated by reliability issues.

Both Scuderia drivers have suffered engine issues in recent weeks, however, it is Sebastian Vettel’s troubles that have hit the hardest.

A broken spark plug last time out in Japan meant the German fell 59 points adrift of Lewis Hamilton in the race for the World title.

And although Ferrari’s chances of championship success are all but over, Marchionne hailed the progress that the Scuderia have made this season.

“The season is not lost, there’s still all to do,” Reuters quotes him as having told Class CNBC television.

“I won’t talk of bad luck, I don’t believe in it.

“The important thing is to not lose the confidence that has brought us so far.

“I’m delighted with what the team has done and I have tremendous confidence that in the next four races we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap.”

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

He also says "we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap", I believe the majority of fans believes that the Ferrari is good enough car to compete, their down on Q3 mode, PU power and reliability, but hopefully will be even better in 2018

He was referencing the gap in the WDC points table there.......not a gap in performance

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

While he could have a point with regards to race pace, you have to put into context what is being said and who is saying it. This is Ferari's big chief. No matter what he actually thinks, he has to give out an aura of faith and trust, because verything he says trickles down and impacts all the employees.

I would much rather look at what's in front of us than to believe blindly those who are deeply invested in it.

Yeah and also he's got to be afraid of losing his job. This makes him look better.

Sergio Marchionne has “tremendous confidence” that Ferrari will put in a strong finish to this season despite their title hopes obliterated by reliability issues.

Both Scuderia drivers have suffered engine issues in recent weeks, however, it is Sebastian Vettel’s troubles that have hit the hardest.

A broken spark plug last time out in Japan meant the German fell 59 points adrift of Lewis Hamilton in the race for the World title.

And although Ferrari’s chances of championship success are all but over, Marchionne hailed the progress that the Scuderia have made this season.

“The season is not lost, there’s still all to do,” Reuters quotes him as having told Class CNBC television.

“I won’t talk of bad luck, I don’t believe in it.

“The important thing is to not lose the confidence that has brought us so far.

“I’m delighted with what the team has done and I have tremendous confidence that in the next four races we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap.”

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

He also says "we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap", I believe the majority of fans believes that the Ferrari is good enough car to compete, their down on Q3 mode, PU power and reliability, but hopefully will be even better in 2018

Ferrari have not managed to produce a strong car for two years running in a quite a while. Whilst I am hoping for them to break that trend, I'm looking towards Red Bull, Renault and McLaren to up their game next year!

Ya know, I genuinely believe they've turned it around. I think their resources are finally up to scratch. It would be a surprise to see them fall away again next year

Autosport have done a calculation of perfect seasons that has Vettel 55 points in front.

Can you give the breakdown or link the article? I'd be interested to see as a 114 point swing seems a bit much to me just off the top of my head. I can only assume they've done Vettel's perfect season but not also taken into account Hamilton's lost points?

Edit: just done some rough calculations and the most I can make it is 101 points gained for Vettel when being generous in a few instances (e.g. assuming he should have besten Kimi in Britain and got 2nd place), and that's before taking Hamilton's lost points into account. I may have missed some stuff but a 114 net gain seems impossible to me.

They only allow so many views so I have to be selective which ones I read, I just read it in the title, I didn't feel it important enough to read.

Sergio Marchionne has “tremendous confidence” that Ferrari will put in a strong finish to this season despite their title hopes obliterated by reliability issues.

Both Scuderia drivers have suffered engine issues in recent weeks, however, it is Sebastian Vettel’s troubles that have hit the hardest.

A broken spark plug last time out in Japan meant the German fell 59 points adrift of Lewis Hamilton in the race for the World title.

And although Ferrari’s chances of championship success are all but over, Marchionne hailed the progress that the Scuderia have made this season.

“The season is not lost, there’s still all to do,” Reuters quotes him as having told Class CNBC television.

“I won’t talk of bad luck, I don’t believe in it.

“The important thing is to not lose the confidence that has brought us so far.

“I’m delighted with what the team has done and I have tremendous confidence that in the next four races we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap.”

He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.

He also says "we will be able to close most of the Mercedes gap", I believe the majority of fans believes that the Ferrari is good enough car to compete, their down on Q3 mode, PU power and reliability, but hopefully will be even better in 2018

He was referencing the gap in the WDC points table there.......not a gap in performance

Yeah he misread what was said to keep up the narrative that the Ferrari is the inferior car.

Autosport have done a calculation of perfect seasons that has Vettel 55 points in front.

Can you give the breakdown or link the article? I'd be interested to see as a 114 point swing seems a bit much to me just off the top of my head. I can only assume they've done Vettel's perfect season but not also taken into account Hamilton's lost points?

Edit: just done some rough calculations and the most I can make it is 101 points gained for Vettel when being generous in a few instances (e.g. assuming he should have besten Kimi in Britain and got 2nd place), and that's before taking Hamilton's lost points into account. I may have missed some stuff but a 114 net gain seems impossible to me.

They only allow so many views so I have to be selective which ones I read, I just read it in the title, I didn't feel it important enough to read.

Yeah he misread what was said to keep up the narrative that the Ferrari is the inferior car.

Why is that a narrative, isn't there a gap between Mercedes and Ferrari? The majority here supports the version that Mercedes is faster, so what's wrong with that? You mostly seem unbiased so please enlighten me

Can you give the breakdown or link the article? I'd be interested to see as a 114 point swing seems a bit much to me just off the top of my head. I can only assume they've done Vettel's perfect season but not also taken into account Hamilton's lost points?

Edit: just done some rough calculations and the most I can make it is 101 points gained for Vettel when being generous in a few instances (e.g. assuming he should have besten Kimi in Britain and got 2nd place), and that's before taking Hamilton's lost points into account. I may have missed some stuff but a 114 net gain seems impossible to me.

They only allow so many views so I have to be selective which ones I read, I just read it in the title, I didn't feel it important enough to read.

Yeah he misread what was said to keep up the narrative that the Ferrari is the inferior car.

Why is that a narrative, isn't there a gap between Mercedes and Ferrari? The majority here supports the version that Mercedes is faster, so what's wrong with that? You mostly seem unbiased so please enlighten me

Marchionne clearly stated that Ferrari was just as good if not better than the Mercedes, the gap that needed closing was in the WDC.

"It is assumed that at least Ferrari runs with different types of oil, stores them in at least three tanks and, if necessary, mixes them in such a way that they are used as a performance-promoting additive in the combustion process. The rules do not prohibit the use of different oils.The transfer into the cylinders is theoretically based on extremely low-viscosity oils, which create it from below on the piston rings into the combustion chamber. This would only make sense for the fast qualifying rounds. Over a longer distance, the engine would be affected.The other trick is to use the gases generated during the oil / air separation as a power aid. They must be blown back into the intake manifold according to regulations. However, the consistency of the oil must correspond to that measured by the FIA ​​before the race. Who intermeshes an oil with the other tank, has a problem with the technical acceptance afterwards.The suspicion against Ferrari has been reinforced since the first pictures of the open Ferrari rear. The engine problems in the starting position revealed, among other things, the view of an elongated container above the cylinder head. Many would like to know what's in there."

"An oil mix, which is generated during the driving operation by selective mixing of liquids, should be drained before the end of the race, so that it is not discovered during the technical inspection. The warning lights went on when Vettel was asked to press the OVR button three times in Monza. At a time when his position in the race was safe, he needed no extra power.We hear from the initiated circles that there was a last warning to Monza. And that no angels work for Mercedes-Benz. The engine oil is also used trickily there, just different. This is the end of next year. Then there are the same strict rules for oil as for petrol.Listening is a normal process in times of open radio traffic. Most teams record the entire radio traffic and bring it to paper. In the case of strange commands, a closer look is given to what happens in the cockpit of the car in question.The competition is puzzling, for example, what Ferrari's command "secure the cockpit" has. The driver is sometimes blown into the car after the race. It occurred in Sochi and in Sepang.The conspiracy theorists suspect secret reference points for the clutch, which must be removed in the roundabout. Perhaps the teams in their paranoia but also the grass grow, and the commands turn out to be quite banal."

"It is assumed that at least Ferrari runs with different types of oil, stores them in at least three tanks and, if necessary, mixes them in such a way that they are used as a performance-promoting additive in the combustion process. The rules do not prohibit the use of different oils.The transfer into the cylinders is theoretically based on extremely low-viscosity oils, which create it from below on the piston rings into the combustion chamber. This would only make sense for the fast qualifying rounds. Over a longer distance, the engine would be affected.The other trick is to use the gases generated during the oil / air separation as a power aid. They must be blown back into the intake manifold according to regulations. However, the consistency of the oil must correspond to that measured by the FIA ​​before the race. Who intermeshes an oil with the other tank, has a problem with the technical acceptance afterwards.The suspicion against Ferrari has been reinforced since the first pictures of the open Ferrari rear. The engine problems in the starting position revealed, among other things, the view of an elongated container above the cylinder head. Many would like to know what's in there."

"An oil mix, which is generated during the driving operation by selective mixing of liquids, should be drained before the end of the race, so that it is not discovered during the technical inspection. The warning lights went on when Vettel was asked to press the OVR button three times in Monza. At a time when his position in the race was safe, he needed no extra power.We hear from the initiated circles that there was a last warning to Monza. And that no angels work for Mercedes-Benz. The engine oil is also used trickily there, just different. This is the end of next year. Then there are the same strict rules for oil as for petrol.Listening is a normal process in times of open radio traffic. Most teams record the entire radio traffic and bring it to paper. In the case of strange commands, a closer look is given to what happens in the cockpit of the car in question.The competition is puzzling, for example, what Ferrari's command "secure the cockpit" has. The driver is sometimes blown into the car after the race. It occurred in Sochi and in Sepang.The conspiracy theorists suspect secret reference points for the clutch, which must be removed in the roundabout. Perhaps the teams in their paranoia but also the grass grow, and the commands turn out to be quite banal."

Best read I have had in a while, actual content rather than speculation, many thanks.

"It is assumed that at least Ferrari runs with different types of oil, stores them in at least three tanks and, if necessary, mixes them in such a way that they are used as a performance-promoting additive in the combustion process. The rules do not prohibit the use of different oils.The transfer into the cylinders is theoretically based on extremely low-viscosity oils, which create it from below on the piston rings into the combustion chamber. This would only make sense for the fast qualifying rounds. Over a longer distance, the engine would be affected.The other trick is to use the gases generated during the oil / air separation as a power aid. They must be blown back into the intake manifold according to regulations. However, the consistency of the oil must correspond to that measured by the FIA ​​before the race. Who intermeshes an oil with the other tank, has a problem with the technical acceptance afterwards.The suspicion against Ferrari has been reinforced since the first pictures of the open Ferrari rear. The engine problems in the starting position revealed, among other things, the view of an elongated container above the cylinder head. Many would like to know what's in there."

"An oil mix, which is generated during the driving operation by selective mixing of liquids, should be drained before the end of the race, so that it is not discovered during the technical inspection. The warning lights went on when Vettel was asked to press the OVR button three times in Monza. At a time when his position in the race was safe, he needed no extra power.We hear from the initiated circles that there was a last warning to Monza. And that no angels work for Mercedes-Benz. The engine oil is also used trickily there, just different. This is the end of next year. Then there are the same strict rules for oil as for petrol.Listening is a normal process in times of open radio traffic. Most teams record the entire radio traffic and bring it to paper. In the case of strange commands, a closer look is given to what happens in the cockpit of the car in question.The competition is puzzling, for example, what Ferrari's command "secure the cockpit" has. The driver is sometimes blown into the car after the race. It occurred in Sochi and in Sepang.The conspiracy theorists suspect secret reference points for the clutch, which must be removed in the roundabout. Perhaps the teams in their paranoia but also the grass grow, and the commands turn out to be quite banal."

This is partly why I think Renault will be there with Mercedes and Ferrari next year. They've got a lot of 'free' time to come back to them next year when these tricks are gone. It'll help Honda close up too.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

"It is assumed that at least Ferrari runs with different types of oil, stores them in at least three tanks and, if necessary, mixes them in such a way that they are used as a performance-promoting additive in the combustion process. The rules do not prohibit the use of different oils.The transfer into the cylinders is theoretically based on extremely low-viscosity oils, which create it from below on the piston rings into the combustion chamber. This would only make sense for the fast qualifying rounds. Over a longer distance, the engine would be affected.The other trick is to use the gases generated during the oil / air separation as a power aid. They must be blown back into the intake manifold according to regulations. However, the consistency of the oil must correspond to that measured by the FIA ​​before the race. Who intermeshes an oil with the other tank, has a problem with the technical acceptance afterwards.The suspicion against Ferrari has been reinforced since the first pictures of the open Ferrari rear. The engine problems in the starting position revealed, among other things, the view of an elongated container above the cylinder head. Many would like to know what's in there."

"An oil mix, which is generated during the driving operation by selective mixing of liquids, should be drained before the end of the race, so that it is not discovered during the technical inspection. The warning lights went on when Vettel was asked to press the OVR button three times in Monza. At a time when his position in the race was safe, he needed no extra power.We hear from the initiated circles that there was a last warning to Monza. And that no angels work for Mercedes-Benz. The engine oil is also used trickily there, just different. This is the end of next year. Then there are the same strict rules for oil as for petrol.Listening is a normal process in times of open radio traffic. Most teams record the entire radio traffic and bring it to paper. In the case of strange commands, a closer look is given to what happens in the cockpit of the car in question.The competition is puzzling, for example, what Ferrari's command "secure the cockpit" has. The driver is sometimes blown into the car after the race. It occurred in Sochi and in Sepang.The conspiracy theorists suspect secret reference points for the clutch, which must be removed in the roundabout. Perhaps the teams in their paranoia but also the grass grow, and the commands turn out to be quite banal."

From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I’m sure I have read an article regarding Mercedes, I will try and find it. In the above link it also mentions Redbulls flexi wing and Hamilton talking about it.

"It is assumed that at least Ferrari runs with different types of oil, stores them in at least three tanks and, if necessary, mixes them in such a way that they are used as a performance-promoting additive in the combustion process. The rules do not prohibit the use of different oils.The transfer into the cylinders is theoretically based on extremely low-viscosity oils, which create it from below on the piston rings into the combustion chamber. This would only make sense for the fast qualifying rounds. Over a longer distance, the engine would be affected.The other trick is to use the gases generated during the oil / air separation as a power aid. They must be blown back into the intake manifold according to regulations. However, the consistency of the oil must correspond to that measured by the FIA ​​before the race. Who intermeshes an oil with the other tank, has a problem with the technical acceptance afterwards.The suspicion against Ferrari has been reinforced since the first pictures of the open Ferrari rear. The engine problems in the starting position revealed, among other things, the view of an elongated container above the cylinder head. Many would like to know what's in there."

"An oil mix, which is generated during the driving operation by selective mixing of liquids, should be drained before the end of the race, so that it is not discovered during the technical inspection. The warning lights went on when Vettel was asked to press the OVR button three times in Monza. At a time when his position in the race was safe, he needed no extra power.We hear from the initiated circles that there was a last warning to Monza. And that no angels work for Mercedes-Benz. The engine oil is also used trickily there, just different. This is the end of next year. Then there are the same strict rules for oil as for petrol.Listening is a normal process in times of open radio traffic. Most teams record the entire radio traffic and bring it to paper. In the case of strange commands, a closer look is given to what happens in the cockpit of the car in question.The competition is puzzling, for example, what Ferrari's command "secure the cockpit" has. The driver is sometimes blown into the car after the race. It occurred in Sochi and in Sepang.The conspiracy theorists suspect secret reference points for the clutch, which must be removed in the roundabout. Perhaps the teams in their paranoia but also the grass grow, and the commands turn out to be quite banal."

Does this mean that Ferrari are cheating?

If they are, so are Mercedes. It says in the article they are doing tricks with the oil but just "differently". Could be to a lesser or worse extent for all we know. Or just the same and done differently.

Seeing as the Ferrari engine design and performance chief is the old combustion chief from Mercedes, signed in summer 2014, I'm guessing he took some knowledge with him.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I'm pretty sure I read that Mercedes oil burning is more legal than the Ferrari oil burning set up. But if removed from both manufacturers then next season should be brilliant. If Honda get it together there will be some very close races. I only hope the championship isn't decided on the Saturday rather than the Sunday though!

From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.