Im just saying that he will get better at offense next year and that`ll make up for his defense.

a) We don't actually know whether he will get better on offense. There's a good chance he won't. When playing time and shots are taken into consideration, we haven't seen a whole lot of statistical improvement from Bargnani over the five years, and in fact have seen some regression in some areas (3 point shooting percentage).

b) He'd have to make a HUGE improvement on offense to make up for his horrible defense. Like, at least, 26 ppg while scoring more efficiently than he did last year. I don't see that happening.

It's not as if Bargnani has been close to having a positive effect on the floor and just needs a little tweak. He's had one of the more negative influences on his team in the entire league. This is why I don't understand people continuing to defend the guy.

It saddens me how much Dwaye Casey talks this guy up. It means he's sticking around at least for another while, and I have a sneaking suspicion that BC hired the guy because he thinks he can turn Bargs into the next Dirk and is willing to play him at his "natural position" *shudders*. I can only hope Casey holds true to his word and holds people accountable on defence, since that'll mean Bargs would get benched for his complete lack of it. If Messina is so in love with the guy, we need to trade Bargs to the Lakers for whatever. I dont care if it's Odom, Brown, and a 1st rd pick, I'd still do it if it meant getting rid of this dead weight.

It saddens me how much Dwaye Casey talks this guy up. It means he's sticking around at least for another while, and I have a sneaking suspicion that BC hired the guy because he thinks he can turn Bargs into the next Dirk and is willing to play him at his "natural position" *shudders*. I can only hope Casey holds true to his word and holds people accountable on defence, since that'll mean Bargs would get benched for his complete lack of it. If Messina is so in love with the guy, we need to trade Bargs to the Lakers for whatever. I dont care if it's Odom, Brown, and a 1st rd pick, I'd still do it if it meant getting rid of this dead weight.

He is talking him up because it is the most prudent approach to take. He is the new coach coming in so he doesnt want to alienate any one before he gets the opportunity to at least see them first and get to scream in their ear. He doesnt want to be negative about him because it lowers his value for any potential trade. There is nothing to be achieved by being negative of any player in the league...one never knows when it come back to bite you.

He doesnt want to be negative about him because it lowers his value for any potential trade. There is nothing to be achieved by being negative of any player in the league...one never knows when it come back to bite you.

exactly. what is he expected to say? "Yo, this dude is so CRAP.... who are you willing to give up for him? Did i mention Barg's is AWFUL? Would you be willing to throw in draft picks also to take on the defensive liability he's going to provide you?"

The Bargnani "Terrible Defender" Myth?

First things first, mods feel free to move this over to the everything bargnani thread when you feel it's time to move.

I apologize for this post in advance, but it is a slow news cycle and this guy does actually use numbers to make his case so (theoretically) we can have an intelligent discussion about his numbers and whether they equate to bargs not being a terrible defender.

I came across this article in bleacher report and thought that it would make me laugh. turns out the guy does actually use statistics to make his case. Personally, I've always felt like Bargs was a passable man defender, but not "very good" man defender as this article suggests. The only problem I have with the article is the author doesn't do a good job of putting bargs numbers within the context of other players, so despite looking like good numbers I don't know how they hold up to the numbers that other players are putting up in the same situation(s).

However, is this Bargnani’s fault, and is he truly a “terrible” defender. To be terrible, you shouldn’t really be able to do anything good (in this case, on the defensive end). Does Bargnani fit into this category?

Not sure I agree with this definition. Let's say player X does everything above average to good, except for 1 specific thing. Now this specific thing he does unbelievable bad and his deficiency is exploited 80% of the time buy the opposing teams. Would you call this guy a terrible defender? I probably would. Not saying that example applies to bargs, just that I'm not sure I agree with his definition. But that's mostly just splitting hairs.

On to the good stuff... everything in bold and italics is highlighted by yours truly.

On Ball Defense

Despite the reputation, Bargnani is actually a very good on ball defender, both on the block and when put in isolation one-on-one situations.

In the 205 times he was posted up last season, Bargnani held his opponent to just 182 points (0.888 PPP) on just 46.8% shooting.

How good are those numbers? How does Bargs compare to other players/starters/C and PFs in that situation?

Even better than his post defense is Bargnani’s one-on-one defense in isolation situations. When faced with isolation situations, Bargnani is in the top 17% of the NBA in terms of Points Per Possession (PPP) allowed, giving up just 0.684 points per possession on 29.7% shooting.

Top 17% sounds good, but I'd still like a more specific comparison to other players in a similar role.

Off Ball Defense/Rebounding

This isn’t to say that Bargnani is a tremendous defender, there is a reason why he has a reputation as a bad defender, and that reason is his help defense and poor defensive rebounding. Bargnani is not good at all when it comes to recognizing when he should send help and when he should stick with his man.

He also has a video demonstrating how bad bargs is at help defense... +1 for using game tape!

Even at times, his own man gets open looks on him when working off of the basketball. In “Spot Up” situations, opponents are shooting 49.4% (eFG% 60.6%) and posting a PPP of 1.142, which is a number that places him in the bottom 15% of the NBA:

Bargnani’s lack of understanding when it comes to help defense really hurts him in a number of ways. First, he doesn’t really know how to help properly, so when he does help, he usually ends up turning his back to his own man, making it difficult to return to him and contest a shot. He also struggles understanding rotations. He never finishes off rotations correctly and always seems to run at a shooter when it is too late.

Also included in defense in my opinion is rebounding. To end a possession, you need to be able to secure the defensive rebound. This is something that Bargnani doesn’t do, almost ever. Bargnani’s Defensive Rebound Rate was the second worst in the NBA among centers who play at least 20 minutes per game in at least 20 games (behind Brook Lopez). He doesn’t have the size, or the want to frankly, to get in there and grab rebounds. It should be at least mentioned that Bargnani’s DRR of 13.9 last year, the worst of his career, happened with Reggie Evans (a rebounding machine) playing next to him (his DRR holds around 16.0 for his career, which is still below average but not as bad as 13.9).

Conclusion

So is Bargnani a terrible defender? I got to say that this one is “busted” in my opinion. Does he deserve a large part of the blame for last year’s poor defense? Yes, but in my opinion, that doesn’t mean that he is this terrible defender that you can’t put out there. In my opinion he can be an average or even a good defender moving forward. It sounds crazy, but if you break things down and look at them, it isn’t that far fetched. First of all, he can stop players when they go at him one-on-one, whether in the post or out the outside in isolation. Second, he is still 26, I know he has been in the pros for a while now, but he is still young and is still learning.

Although he does have some numbers to support the argument that bargs is a descent man defender, help defense and def rebounding are HUGE parts of the game, and I am not as optimistic about barg's ability to improve. Is bargs a "terrible" defender? Maybe not. He just might be a really bad defender.

"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

I read this article a few weeks ago. It's an incredibly flawed argument and not even worth discussing, in my opinion.

Sure. But what about the stats? I may be wrong but I believe you have said that "bargs being a good on the ball defender is one of the biggest bargnani myths out there" or something to that effect. As someone who believes that you need stats to back up your argument I would have thought that you'd have a little more sophisticated of a rebuttal than that. Poor form.

"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

Alright, look at his Defensive Rating (DRTG). It proves that he drags the team down with his poor decision-making and the fact that he is constantly out of position. He does not guard the rim, does not grab defensive boards, and doesn't help his teammates. He's a step behind the play mentally. When the ball is cycled around to his man, let's grant the point that he can play good one-on-one defense. So what? There are 9 guys out there and complex plays being run on both sides. And he can't follow it. As his playing time has increased, his DRTG and the overall team DRTG of the Raptors have both fallen.

Big men generally have a better DRTG than their team. With Bargnani, it's the opposite. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson both had a DRTG of 110 this season. The Raptors as a team were at 114. Bargnani was at 115. So, while Davis and Johnson were helping the team play better defense, Bargnani was dragging it down with his usual crap. His responsibilities need to decrease, not increase like they did this past season.

No stat can express or adequately represent Bargnani's defensive failings because the biggest impact it has is on his opponent's confidence. When you play the Raps, you know you can go down that lane, make that cut off the ball, go in for that offensive rebound, because it's there and Bargnani simply won't adjust/recognize/whatever the case may be. Those plays energize professional athletes, get them locked in. It also must demoralize the hell out of his teammates, since they can do a good job in their rotations only to have Bargs allow a layup because he had his head turned. There's no stat for that impact. You just have to watch the games to see it.

Bargs is a bad defender because because centers and power forwards have to be good helpers and he isn't. That's just the way it is. Maybe there is a defensive scheme that we could implement that would hide him or even allow his strengths to shine but the question then becomes whether or not he's a good enough player to base our whole defensive strategy around hiding him. It doesn't look like he'll be traded this off season (Casey's comments + the lockout) so I think that he's going to have another chance to improve and maybe Casey can help with that. If he learns how to help, if he can even figure out how to make the first rotation effectively, he'll be a good enough defender to keep around. If he doesn't, which is more likely IMO, he will drag this franchise down until we either move him to the bench and play him spot minutes or trade him.

add: I seem to remember Bargs also had a really good defensive rating guarding the pick and roll. Can anyone verify that?

Last edited by hateslosing; Sat Jul 23rd, 2011 at 08:15 PM.

"When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
-Scudworth

I came across this article in bleacher report and thought that it would make me laugh. turns out the guy does actually use statistics to make his case. Personally, I've always felt like Bargs was a passable man defender, but not "very good" man defender as this article suggests. The only problem I have with the article is the author doesn't do a good job of putting bargs numbers within the context of other players, so despite looking like good numbers I don't know how they hold up to the numbers that other players are putting up in the same situation(s).

There is good reason why you were surprised by this article on bleacherreport and it did not make you laugh instantly as should be expected: it isn't a bleacherreport article. You probably clicked on a link there and they wrapped the new website in their own. It is an article on nbaplaybook by Sebastian Pruiti. http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/07/15/nb...ible-defender/.

No stat can express or adequately represent Bargnani's defensive failings because the biggest impact it has is on his opponent's confidence. When you play the Raps, you know you can go down that lane, make that cut off the ball, go in for that offensive rebound, because it's there and Bargnani simply won't adjust/recognize/whatever the case may be. Those plays energize professional athletes

I think there is a lot of truth to this. I'm sure most of us have played competitively before and know exactly what confidence does to help a player. I'd even take that a step further and argue that his lack of D can hurt other Raptors players by creating a lack of confidence on D.

Does anyone remember the article (I think it was from Raptors HQ) about the guys from Golden State telling their teammates to attack the basket because Andrea couldn't stop them? What about the OT game in Milwaukee where the Bucks didn't even remotely hide going at Andrea for every play in OT? A certain Luke Harangody lighting it up for a near 20-10?