-Priority thunderwave. This screws up a lot of speed-reliant Pokemon-Priority nasty plot. He can set up a nasty plot before someone faster can taunt him.-Amazing coverage. With thunderbolt, grass knot, focus miss blast, hidden power and hurricane (I think), there are few Pokemon that wall him.-Surprising bulk. Thundurus only has two weaknesses, one of which is rarely STAB and the other one almost always being inaccurate. His defensive stats are decent.

-Priority thunderwave. This screws up a lot of speed-reliant Pokemon-Priority nasty plot. He can set up a nasty plot before someone faster can taunt him.-Amazing coverage. With thunderbolt, grass knot, focus miss blast, hidden power and hurricane (I think), there are few Pokemon that wall him.-Surprising bulk. Thundurus only has two weaknesses, one of which is rarely STAB and the other one almost always being inaccurate. His defensive stats are decent.

What do you guys think, Thundurus should be uber here or not?

He has base 111 speed, so more often than not he can NP first anyways as long as you switch him in smartly. Same with T-wave but it does take out scarf users.

Tornadus learns Hurricane.

His weakness usually aren't STAB, but Ice is everywhere, and SR weak is still quite bad with 79/70/80 defenses and no recovery.

I can see it as top-tier OU but not broken enough to be Uber, Or at worse just banning Prankster variants.

His weakness usually aren't STAB, but Ice is everywhere, and SR weak is still quite bad with 79/70/80 defenses and no recovery.

I would agree the thing is quite good but I've seen it get OHKO'D with a lifeorb cloyster many times, that priority ice move will wreak it if used by anything decent attack wise, e.g. a Lead Weavile ,and stone edge on anything ground will have it switching out in no time flat =/

kings rock and any item that increase's flinching. I dont have a problem with them as much as others, but bright powder (added to moves as thunder; blizzard and rock edge) I have noticed to really bring up bad feelings. BUT if you do ban bright powder you have to add zoom lens/wide lens. I can see a potential problem with hold items like eject button and red card. i do a lot of dueling localy and I am noticing alot of competition 1hit KO using the new gems. So there may be a need to ban those (ghost gem; dragon gem ect.).As for garchomp, i dont agree, it is a fast sweeper with decent power but it still has a great deal of weakness and can be 1hit KOd. And wobuffet is a joke, to beat a wobbuffet use a plant type or a poison type, even put it to sleep and drain it with dream eater. Wobbuffet is nothing but waste of space.

I will say I thoroughly believe that ALL legends and uniques should be banned from tournament. i say uniques because there is the argument that darkrai is not a legend, as well as Zoroark and heatran. As well vespiqueen

i would say that all teams are limited to 1 of any held item

I hate to agree with it, but yes all generation 4 exclusive tms shouls be banned, ( darn I really loved my drain punch on breloom, and my dark pulse on sableye)!

Some sites and tournaments ban shinies (jealousy or awareness). I duel exclusively with shinies but i can understand why people are against them

Heavily doubt it, as it's only in effect if the user is faster and using a move without secondary effect. It's by no means as broken as forcing a 10% miss rate.

bettercarpenter wrote:

I dont have a problem with them as much as others, but bright powder (added to moves as thunder; blizzard and rock edge) I have noticed to really bring up bad feelings. BUT if you do ban bright powder you have to add zoom lens/wide lens.

I fail to see the comparison here, lenses are rarely used because the 7-8%/(14-16% when slower) accuracy boost is worse then other items you could be using. Once again the evasion flaw with brightpowder is that's it's miss rate being forced on an opponent.

bettercarpenter wrote:

I can see a potential problem with hold items like eject button and red card. i do a lot of dueling localy and I am noticing alot of competition 1hit KO using the new gems. So there may be a need to ban those (ghost gem; dragon gem ect.).

Once again there are many items that do the essentially the same thing (Choice band/scarf, life orb, pinch berries) That are more useful then the gems, which are one-off, display themselves, and leave you itemless and moveset obvious.

bettercarpenter wrote:

I will say I thoroughly believe that ALL legends and uniques should be banned from tournament. i say uniques because there is the argument that darkrai is not a legend, as well as Zoroark and heatran. As well vespiqueen

i would say that all teams are limited to 1 of any held item

Wi-fi does hold to no legendaries so the metagame is there in that sense. Banning Zoroark/Vespiqueen is just silly, they are fully breedable and by no means have overpowered or even above average stats.

with pokemon as starraptor using moves as ( brain fart) wing attack, that causes flinching and have it holding a kings rock, the opponent will never get a chance to move. There is a reason why kings rock is banned from ALL sanctioned tournaments, as well as chatot, vesipiqueen and darkrai. I duel and I duel a lot, we always use the sanctioned rules and bans. I can quickly tell that mason the chef has never done a sanctioned duel and lost to someone making you flinch, but since you cant take a kings rock into the wifi rooms it is a no brainer and not needed for discussion. Mason I was very insulted by you quoteing every thing I wrote, everything I stated is straight out of sanctioned rules and bans. i try not to offend others, but I can see this does not appear to go the same for this site.there is already the discussion to ban the 1hit ko moves (sheer breeze), if so there is not need to add the lens', because they are the only reason anyone uses these items. but as my impetuous outcaller put it they add less than 10% to accuracy, add that to a 75%- 85% hit ratio move like stones edge and draco meteor you have a 1 hit ko.Sanction rules are designed so that both parties have a fair chance to attack at least once per pokemon, and those are the rules that I beleive should be followed. So i stand behind what I said and say that kings rock and the held gems should be banned.the sanctioned rules were designed by a larger crowd for a longer time span as what tye felt would make a fair and fun duel for everyone, others should follow in their example.

with pokemon as starraptor using moves as ( brain fart) wing attack, that causes flinching and have it holding a kings rock, the opponent will never get a chance to move. There is a reason why kings rock is banned from ALL sanctioned tournaments, as well as chatot, vesipiqueen and darkrai.

Wing Attack doesn't cause flinching; do you mean Air Slash?Why on earth are Chatot and Vespiquen banned? That makes no sense to me. Is it because they can learn moves others can't? That's not a very good reason.

bettercarpenter wrote:

Mason I was very insulted by you quoteing every thing I wrote, everything I stated is straight out of sanctioned rules and bans. i try not to offend others, but I can see this does not appear to go the same for this site.

He's not insulting you, he's just trying to explain to you why he thinks that they shouldn't be banned. There's no reason to take offense at that. And as a rule we try not to flame others on Psypokes.

bettercarpenter wrote:

there is already the discussion to ban the 1hit ko moves (sheer breeze), if so there is not need to add the lens', because they are the only reason anyone uses these items. but as my impetuous outcaller put it they add less than 10% to accuracy, add that to a 75%- 85% hit ratio move like stones edge and draco meteor you have a 1 hit ko.

Well, that's just stategy. And the one hit KO moves are already banned here.

bettercarpenter wrote:

Sanction rules are designed so that both parties have a fair chance to attack at least once per pokemon, and those are the rules that I beleive should be followed.

That's the whole point. If you can beat you opponent by limiting the amount if moves they use, then that's good. Just get a Pokemon with Sturdy or Inner Focus if you want to counter people who do that. I'm really sorry if you don't understand why the rules are how they are; we're just trying to help.

_________________"I have hated the words and I have loved them, and I hope I have made them right."- The Book Thief

I will say I thoroughly believe that ALL legends and uniques should be banned from tournament. i say uniques because there is the argument that darkrai is not a legend, as well as Zoroark and heatran. As well vespiqueen

There is a reason why kings rock is banned from ALL sanctioned tournaments, as well as chatot, vesipiqueen and darkrai.

Obvious troll is obvious.Clearly you don't know a thing about sanctioned tournaments.

I always pay close attention to the rules for VGC (which is basically an official Pokemon tournament, usually done in Flat Double Battle style) and...yeah, your arguments don't hold much water. Darkrai's banned because it's event-exclusive, as well as any other event-exclusive Pokemon (Victini, Manaphy, etc).

with pokemon as starraptor using moves as ( brain fart) wing attack, that causes flinching and have it holding a kings rock, the opponent will never get a chance to move.

There is a seperate mechanic with moves that flinch with king's rock/Razor fang, rasing the flinch rate by ~10% of the move's flinch chance. So if your meaning Air slash the flinch rate is about 33% with the rock. Pokemon like Togekiss would be a way worse abuse example with serene geace making it 60% (~65% with a flinch item.)

bettercarpenter wrote:

There is a reason why kings rock is banned from ALL sanctioned tournaments, as well as chatot, vesipiqueen and darkrai. I duel and I duel a lot, we always use the sanctioned rules and bans. I can quickly tell that mason the chef has never done a sanctioned duel and lost to someone making you flinch, but since you cant take a kings rock into the wifi rooms it is a no brainer and not needed for discussion.

I've seen king's rock banned before but competitive groups like Smogon and PO have never moved or voted to ban it. Can you show which group this is?

And yes, I've lost battles to flinch quite a few times check my Monotype final GTS video.

bettercarpenter wrote:

Mason I was very insulted by you quoteing every thing I wrote, everything I stated is straight out of sanctioned rules and bans. i try not to offend others, but I can see this does not appear to go the same for this site.

I'm sorry to offend, but your claims would be much more valid if you can source where your getting your rules/bans from.

bettercarpenter wrote:

there is already the discussion to ban the 1hit ko moves (sheer breeze), if so there is not need to add the lens', because they are the only reason anyone uses these items. but as my impetuous outcaller put it they add less than 10% to accuracy, add that to a 75%- 85% hit ratio move like stones edge and draco meteor you have a 1 hit ko.

OHKO moves are already banned practically everywhere. and wide/zoom lens do not effect the accuracy of those moves as they have a separate formula.

I do alot of dueling under sanctioned rules, I did duel in the San Diego Comic con in 2010 but have not dueled under gen 5 (my team is not built yet). Also when you do any random or wifi duel there is a list of pokemon that are not allowed, and items not allowed. Kings rock and as Mason pointed out razor fang are both on the items ban list. I suggest anything on a sanctioned ban list you should ban. At this point i seriously dont care. It seems many people here like kings rock, i prefer to use skill and well trained pokemon.Sorry to cause confusion, i was not claiming that chatot or vespiqueen were legends, I meant that they were both on the banned list.Pokemon like heatran and Zoroark are argued legends or unique. I dont care, I dont use either. I have never seen Garchomp or salamance on the banned the list but both are on the uber list. As for the gems that i suggested to be banned items, this come from personnally seeing people get very upset over a duel becuse some one was using the gems. CAse in hand: Player A was using all high damage attacks and every one of his pokemon was holding a specific gem. Player B was illiminated with all of his pokemon suffering 1 hit kos and did not have a chance of retaliation. We were aked for our opinions on what should be banned, I voiced my opinion, I will never do that again. I actually dont even want to maintain being a member.If this thread is about raging I have other things to do, i duel. I duel alot. i have won money; pokemon and national placeings. I duel locally and have been to 2 different national tournaments. I have been playing pokemon since most people on this have been born. I still dont get what there is to argue about, maybe it is the infliction to peoples personnal dueling style.

OH I see the biggest problem, I dont use smogon and found it to be a joke. I used to use serebii until I found this site, but I finding it to be lees than that of smogon.

Sorry to cause confusion, i was not claiming that chatot or vespiqueen were legends, I meant that they were both on the banned list.Pokemon like heatran and Zoroark are argued legends or unique. I dont care, I dont use either. I have never seen Garchomp or salamance on the banned the list but both are on the uber list.

TPCi and Smogon use different ban lists. The former does it on the Pokemon's status as event-exclusive or having a very high base stat total. The latter does it based on relative power in comparison to others and how the metagame can handle those Pokemon.

Quote:

Pokemon like heatran and Zoroark are argued legends or unique.

People only argue that Zoroark and Lucario are legends because they don't know any better. Just because they got movies does not make them legendaries. And why Heatran? We've had gendered legendaries before and we still do. Heatran IS a legendary, no question.

Quote:

It seems many people here like kings rock, i prefer to use skill and well trained pokemon.

That's the worst excuse I've ever heard for someone crying over something that I've ever heard. And UNFORTUNATELY, it's also the most common. "Skill and well-trained Pokemon"? That's based on the assumption that they don't, which is false.Please don't say or make ultimatums like that without some sort of solid reliable proof.

Quote:

i have won money; pokemon and national placeings. I duel locally and have been to 2 different national tournaments.

You win money like that for playing the Trading Card Game, not the Video Game Challenge.

Quote:

Kings rock and as Mason pointed out razor fang are both on the items ban list.

Pretty sure that's false. I know that duplicate items are not permitted, so maybe you had 2 King's Rock on a team and it didn't let you play.

Quote:

CAse in hand: Player A was using all high damage attacks and every one of his pokemon was holding a specific gem. Player B was illiminated with all of his pokemon suffering 1 hit kos and did not have a chance of retaliation.

Player B must be a really terrible player for him to allow that to happen.

In summary: Everyone has a different battling system, and they're used in different ways. Smogon's is generally the most well-respected because they do a LOT of competitive testing, and recognize how each Pokemon can respond to certain threats and also how those Pokemon can be countered. And since Smogon's so reliable we try to go as close to that as possible. We disagree with it on a few counts (such as the total ban of Blaziken; we permit Blaze but not Speed Boost), but for the most part we follow very closely to it.

As for Pokemon's ban list? It just has to do with a Pokemon's status in and of itself, as I pointed out earlier in this post.

I suggest anything on a sanctioned ban list you should ban. At this point i seriously dont care. It seems many people here like kings rock, i prefer to use skill and well trained pokemon.

Are you trying to say that none of us train our Pokemon well and we all abuse King's Rock? Have you even SEEN one of us battle? Stop making assumptions. And King's Rock isn't even that great of an item.

bettercarpenter wrote:

I have never seen Garchomp or salamance on the banned the list but both are on the uber list.

Different sites have different ban lists depending on what they think should or should not be banned.

bettercarpenter wrote:

As for the gems that i suggested to be banned items, this come from personnally seeing people get very upset over a duel becuse some one was using the gems. CAse in hand: Player A was using all high damage attacks and every one of his pokemon was holding a specific gem. Player B was illiminated with all of his pokemon suffering 1 hit kos and did not have a chance of retaliation.

And how old was this person who got upset? Four? Maybe five? It's not unfair that the opponent won. He or she obviously trained their Pokemon better and had a strategic plan set out.

bettercarpenter wrote:

We were aked for our opinions on what should be banned, I voiced my opinion, I will never do that again. I actually dont even want to maintain being a member.

It's not bad that you voiced your opinion. It's bad that you got all defensive when we tried to explain our point of views to you. And you shouldn't quit just because if one bad experience.

bettercarpenter wrote:

If this thread is about raging I have other things to do, i duel. I duel alot. i have won money; pokemon and national placeings. I duel locally and have been to 2 different national tournaments. I have been playing pokemon since most people on this have been born.

I would imagine that there are a good many people older than you here. It's good that you like to battle (dueling is for Yugioh :p) and have been to a lot of tournaments, but that doesn't automatically mean that you will always be right. Everyone is wrong sometimes.

bettercarpenter wrote:

OH I see the biggest problem, I dont use smogon and found it to be a joke. I used to use HELL until I found this site, but I finding it to be lees than that of smogon.

Smogon isn't a joke, it's one of the best Pokemon sites out there. And so is Psypokes.

Again, I'm sorry that you're having a negative first experience here at Psypokes. Try posting in a bunch of different sections of the forums (I'd recommend the Kanto Safari Zone, we've got some fun games in there!) and find where you fit in here.

_________________"I have hated the words and I have loved them, and I hope I have made them right."- The Book Thief

bettercarpenter, I just have to say it's a bit unfair the way you criticised Mason by calling him an "impetuos outcaller". He didn't actually do anything to offend you - quoting your own posts was to help you understand why he said what he said about your comments. Also, If quoting wasn't allowed, it wouldn't be an option.

Sorry for having a turbulent time on psypoke so far, I hope you consider staying on.

I have to agree what DNA, Frost, twistedturtwig and Mason have said before me. We should now move back on topic:

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I think we might have to consider a ban on Thudnurus. Priority NP sure does make set-up easy and then can proceed with an easy sweep. Also, I think it is the main rain abuser as Thunder coming from even 1 NP is scary! Also with T-bolt and HP Ice, it gets neural coverage on most of the OU metagame. Then we have to factor in priority Thunder wave and Taunt. I don't think smogon or PO have banned it but I would like to discuss this in the Psypoke community.

As far as Smogon is concerned, Thundurus is still OU, however it is Suspect, and it may be moved to the Uber tier after a simple majority vote. (Initially it got a majority vote, but didn't get the 2/3rds necessary for ban.) It's very possible Thundurus will be banned soon enough.

As far as Smogon is concerned, Thundurus is still OU, however it is Suspect, and it may be moved to the Uber tier after a simple majority vote. (Initially it got a majority vote, but didn't get the 2/3rds necessary for ban.) It's very possible Thundurus will be banned soon enough.

Your points are totally valid, though.

I know it makes me so sad. But Thundurus is still OU so it's okay.... For now.

I'd wait for smogon/PO to ban Thundurus before adding it here, it still seems to be about a 50/50 debate.

I would like to ask about bantesting/voting certain pokes under Drizzle+Swift swim here: As some users like Armaldo/Beartic, who benefit less from SS than any Chlorophyll/Sand rush user would barely dent the UU game (if perma-rain existed in UU) and Some waters like Seaking,Omastar, and Ludicolo could impact OU but not overtake and overpower like Kingdra,Kabutops,Gorebyss, and Relicanth did.

DNA i dont make anything up, I have 3 "stores" here locally ( in Kansas) that we have all kinds of dueling every week. It cost any where from $5- $20 to participate. The rewards for placing (depending on store fomr store) are pokemon; cash or credits. I am merely expressing my expereiences, and have been slashed at the throat for it. I can see my experiences are not appreciated. Good luck on your tournament. I am sure everyone will have fun. BUt I can clearly see this is not the kind site I want to participate in.

On behalf of Psypoke, I would like to challenge bettercarpenter to his "duel". He said he didn't have a Gen V team so I will take him on in Gen IV. If Mason/DNA/Frost don't want me to I'm fine about it, but I have got pretty good competitive experience. I guess I'll will have to play by his "sanctioned rules" too. No matter, I still will win.

--------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic: I like this discussion/testing of SS Pokemon. SS main abusers in the OU metagame are, as Mason pointed out Kingdra, Gorebyss, Relicanth and Kabutops but not many others can abuse rain as well as these four. My opinion is that we playtest all possible rain abusers and see if they can have a serious impact on the OU metagame. if we do this, we can help the plight of these poor Pokemon who have been unintentionally affected by the blanket ban of Drizzle + SS

bettercarpenter, we tried being nice to you, but apparently you just can't accept that people have different ideas. If you want to leave, then that's fine by me. Go flame people on some other site. See where that gets you. And if I was done EV training my team, I would maul you. Even under your "sanctioned rules." Again, I'm truly sorry that your experiences at Psypokes were this bad, but you can't deny that you brought them upon yourself.

Anyway, that's a good idea. We could set some sort of "test" up, where we try each SS Pokemon up against a few opponents to see if they'll really be that much better. Maybe the opposing team could be made up of one Pokemon weak against the SS user, one strong against it, and one neutral? Just a thought. This could seriously help those innocent little Swift Swimmers!

_________________"I have hated the words and I have loved them, and I hope I have made them right."- The Book Thief

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