Eh, not really. The benefits which the Muslim Brotherhood brings offset its costs for a majority of the population. The MB are essentially a state within a state because they provide many public goods like education, healthcare, security, legal adjudication, etc. The liberal democrats--like you, me, and everyone in CC--are very few in Egypt, but they can be loud. It doesn't seem that Egypt is ready for a liberal democracy.

Also, the 600-pound gorilla in the room is the Egyptian military. Remember that they had no problem when the Mubarrak-era judges sacked the Egyptian Parliament, and this is partly why Morsi ramped up his executive powers. He and/or the "MB Executives/Big Shots" were probably fearing another sack by the Mubarrak-era judges.

When we look at these kinds of events through our democratic lens, we have to be mindful of our democratic bias. We sometimes impose too many of our hopes and dreams into the majority of a population who we know very little about.

And, we also may be assuming too much about the Egyptian people's range of options. It could be the case that an MB-dominated government may be best for Egypt--compared to the more fragile arrangements of a minority liberal democratic coalition. I imagine that such an alternative could easily be pushed aside by the military.

Haha, after the Egyptian military issued their ultimatum to Morsi, Morsi responded with-

"President Mohamed Mursi asserts his grasp on constitutional legitimacy and rejects any attempt to deviate from it, and calls on the armed forces to withdraw their warning and refuses to be dictated to internally or externally,"

Three hours later the Egyptian military responded with-"We swear to God that we will sacrifice even our blood for Egypt and its people, to defend them against any terrorist, radical or fool,"

Hahaha. Well, we see now quite clearly what the Egyptian military thinks of Morsi. And also what the Egyptian people think of the US as well. Interesting tidbit, the protests going on right now in Egypt, are the largest ever in all of human history.http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/07/01/cr ... n-history/ There are some 17 million Egyptians in the streets throughout Egypt and all are demanding the Muslim Brotherhood get the f*ck out of their country and that the US stay the f*ck out of Egypt's business.

Ahhh, the fruit of our interventionist policies. Bringing people together in a common hatred. Muslim Brotherhood are scumbags though. I'd want them out as well if I were Egyptian.

The military merely seems to be siding with eventual victors in their battles, which is smart. It keeps their cronyism live and well, while also making the populace feel indebted, thus less likely to act any reforms focus on the military or military assets. Nice!

Morsi and Muslim Brotherhood-Religious Fundamentalists that are hardline, stomped on Democracy of the new Egyptian government, allowed crime to soar, and made the vast majority of Egyptians lives hell.

And Obama and the rest of the US government want to protect this guy? Isn't the Muslim Brotherhood essentially 2 steps below Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups we've been fighting in the region? The people of Egypt don't want extremists runnning their country, they seem to want moderates, but since Obama and company have been siding (or been very slow to act, whichever) with the Muslim Brotherhood, I doubt Egypt will ever see us as an ally again.

I also agree with Andy, the Egyptian military, if they really were working for the people, should have shoved Morsi and company out of office some time ago, and dilly dally around with it and let their country free fall into a rapid state of decay (crime had risen, sexual assaults included, making it unsafe for more and more people).

Of course there are paralells to the US, but this thread is about Morsi and Egypt.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Morsi and Muslim Brotherhood-Religious Fundamentalists that are hardline, stomped on Democracy of the new Egyptian government, allowed crime to soar, and made the vast majority of Egyptians lives hell.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but although I oppose Morsi and his government, that was the democratically elected government chosen by a majority of Egyptians, is it not? What's going to be different this time around compared to the last coup & election? Do you think the opinions and voting of the populace will have changed enough to actually bring a moderate party to majority government in the country? I have deep reservations and am quite skeptical that the Egyptian people are ready for a liberal democratic government; there must first be a change of culture and mindset throughout the people of region.

All the same, I wish them the best and hope they do choose better this time around. In the mean time, I believe all Western governments should stop messing around with their politics (that includes government-funds in the form of foreign aid).

Morsi & Co. did not do enough to show the general populationgood faith that efforts were being made to end corruptionand improve life in Egypt.

Of course the bad economy there would be hard for anyoneto turn around in such a short time, but the "democraticallyelected government" still blew their opportunity.

So now Egypt has now experienced a military coup and the worldcan only sit back and observe what happens next. Of course therewill be no shortage of expert opinions tossed about for weeks tocome about what to expect next.

Ray Rider wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, but although I oppose Morsi and his government, that was the democratically elected government chosen by a majority of Egyptians, is it not? What's going to be different this time around compared to the last coup & election? Do you think the opinions and voting of the populace will have changed enough to actually bring a moderate party to majority government in the country? I have deep reservations and am quite skeptical that the Egyptian people are ready for a liberal democratic government; there must first be a change of culture and mindset throughout the people of region.

All the same, I wish them the best and hope they do choose better this time around. In the mean time, I believe all Western governments should stop messing around with their politics (that includes government-funds in the form of foreign aid).

Whoa now, you gotta remember a few things about Morsi and why the Egyptian military is showing him no morsi (heh heh).

Yeah, he was elected in June 2012 with just over 50% of the vote. He was the head of the FJP (founded by the Muslim Brotherhood) and he resigned that post upon being elected, as promised. So he appears a "moderate". At first.

Then in November 2012, Morsi gave himself unlimited powers to "protect the people", he gave himself the power to legislate with out judicial review or oversight. He made himself a dictator. He pretty much just shit all over the Egyptian constitution.

It would be akin of Mister Obama one day saying "Yeah, I'm the executive, but I'm going to go ahead and write an executive order giving me the power to make laws without any Congressional oversight or Supreme court review". As the executive, Mister Obama doesn't have the power to legislate. That's Congress' job.

What's the point of Egypt's parliament if the president is just going to make laws himself without even bothering to have said laws and powers without any debate or oversight? Morsi did just what plenty of other dictators have done through the decades. Used democratic process to gain power and then stripped that very democratic process to take further power beyond what he was elected to have.

And so the Egyptian people went nuts. I can't say as I blame them. We'd do the same (I'd hope) if Obama or Bush or any other president past/present/future went so far as Morsi did. As I'd hope our military would honor their sacred oath and defend the constitution and arrest said president past/present/future and restore the Republic.

But I think what really pissed off the Egyptian military was when Morsi, in June, said that intervention was needed in Syria to oust Assad. Egyptian clerics where calling for holy war in Syria to remove Assad and the "infidels" who were protecting him. The Egyptian military didn't like that Morsi was effectively encouraging Egyptian citizens to become jihadists fighting abroad.

The Egyptian military immediately came out and squashed Morsi's rhetoric saying that Egypt's military had one purpose, to protect Egypt's borders, not to go fighting some holy war between warring religious sects. The Egyptian military is very wary of such things, of such people. Have been for going on 60 years now. Egyptian military has always worked and trained closely with American military and they know better than anyone the capabilities the US has and they don't ever want to come to blows with the US because some nutbag president goes calling for holy wars.

I think that was probably the final straw for the Egyptian military, they said "that's enough of this guy" and this is where we are today.

All said and done, the best thing the US can do, is stay the hell out of it. Egypt will figure it out all on their own. Morsi's position on Syria does show to how he was perceived as a lapdog of the US. A lapdog that had attempted to take unlimited power despite a supposed constitution and democratic process. And thus he is "our bitch" as the Egyptian people have come to regard him.

Ray Rider wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, but although I oppose Morsi and his government, that was the democratically elected government chosen by a majority of Egyptians, is it not? What's going to be different this time around compared to the last coup & election? Do you think the opinions and voting of the populace will have changed enough to actually bring a moderate party to majority government in the country? I have deep reservations and am quite skeptical that the Egyptian people are ready for a liberal democratic government; there must first be a change of culture and mindset throughout the people of region.

All the same, I wish them the best and hope they do choose better this time around. In the mean time, I believe all Western governments should stop messing around with their politics (that includes government-funds in the form of foreign aid).

Whoa now, you gotta remember a few things about Morsi and why the Egyptian military is showing him no morsi (heh heh).

Yeah, he was elected in June 2012 with just over 50% of the vote. He was the head of the FJP (founded by the Muslim Brotherhood) and he resigned that post upon being elected, as promised. So he appears a "moderate". At first.

Then in November 2012, Morsi gave himself unlimited powers to "protect the people", he gave himself the power to legislate with out judicial review or oversight. He made himself a dictator. He pretty much just shit all over the Egyptian constitution

Well, perhaps he had to because the Mubarak-backed supreme court was going to basically beat the crap outta the muslim brotherhood with their "judicial oversight."

The military ensured that their guys stayed in the courts, so it's no surprise they're in a hissy-fit with the Muslim Brotherhood. The military wants the power, and the MB don't want to give it to them.

It's not about democracy or constitutions because we know the military doesn't really give a shit about either--so long as it retains much of its power and spending. The military will keep pushing until they get some government which goes easy on them and their military-owned enterprises.

BigBallinStalin wrote:It's not about democracy or constitutions because we know the military doesn't really give a shit about either--so long as it retains much of its power and spending. The military will keep pushing until they get some government which goes easy on them and their military-owned enterprises.

But the Egyptian military was independent anyway under the Morsi. They made sure of that from the get go. There is a lot of history between the Egyptian military and the Muslim Brotherhood. They hate each other. In fact, early on way back when in the 50's, after the Egyptian military overthrew the Egyptian king, the Muslim Brotherhood was rounded up and tossed in prison, killed or expelled from the country.

Now we in the US may be leery of military coups, rightfully so, but in Egypt some good has come from it. Sure, the military has all the real power, but they've also instituted reforms. During the Egyptian monarchy the people were treated pretty badly. Low rates of literacy, poverty and injustice. Not to mention the military blamed the monarchy for the poor showing in the wars against Israel.

Any government that comes, including Morsi's, has been and will be easy on the military. The Egyptian military not only controls all the tanks and troops, but they hold the keys to all industry and markets in Egypt. Not to mention their close ties to the US, virtually all Egyptian officers are trained in and by the US military. Part of the $1.3 billion in military aid given to Egypt every year by the US.

No, the Egyptian military has nothing to fear from Egyptian government or judges. They fear the people's wrath. As decent as the Egyptian military is, they don't want to fight in a civil war, nor do they wish to see Egypt go down that path and so is quite willing to step in when they feel the need to keep Egypt as stable as possible. Hell, the military liked Mubarik just fine, but they threw him under the bus, didn't they? Why? It wasn't so that asshats like the Muslim Brotherhood could take over, I can tell ya that! Hahah.

Morsi is a MB stooge, and despite some shallow appearances, Morsi is also an extremist. The Egyptian military doesn't like that. Obviously.

BigBallinStalin wrote:It's not about democracy or constitutions because we know the military doesn't really give a shit about either--so long as it retains much of its power and spending. The military will keep pushing until they get some government which goes easy on them and their military-owned enterprises.

But the Egyptian military was independent anyway under the Morsi. They made sure of that from the get go.

And that's a problem. The Old School Mubarak crowd stays in and independent.

I don't see how this counters what I'm saying.

Now we in the US may be leery of military coups, rightfully so, but in Egypt some good has come from it. Sure, the military has all the real power, but they've also instituted reforms. During the Egyptian monarchy the people were treated pretty badly. Low rates of literacy, poverty and injustice. Not to mention the military blamed the monarchy for the poor showing in the wars against Israel.

So has the Saudi king, but it's not like he's the best option for the people...

Any government that comes, including Morsi's, has been and will be easy on the military. The Egyptian military not only controls all the tanks and troops, but they hold the keys to all industry and markets in Egypt. Not to mention their close ties to the US, virtually all Egyptian officers are trained in and by the US military. Part of the $1.3 billion in military aid given to Egypt every year by the US.

No, the Egyptian military has nothing to fear from Egyptian government or judges. They fear the people's wrath. As decent as the Egyptian military is, they don't want to fight in a civil war, nor do they wish to see Egypt go down that path and so is quite willing to step in when they feel the need to keep Egypt as stable as possible. Hell, the military liked Mubarik just fine, but they threw him under the bus, didn't they? Why? It wasn't so that asshats like the Muslim Brotherhood could take over, I can tell ya that! Hahah.

Morsi is a MB stooge, and despite some shallow appearances, Morsi is also an extremist. The Egyptian military doesn't like that. Obviously.

Sure, they do. That's the source which can cut their funding, and they got the judges on their side...

These guys aren't some all-loving group which steers the country toward the Greater Good. They let go of Mubarak after waiting around to see if the protesters would have a good chance in winning. It's not like they're leading this change.