It's called cosmetic progression, y'know, the thing they sold millions of people the game on.

Just because you can't comprehend how a game can exist without being a verbatim copy of WoW doesn't mean it's impossible.

Cosmetic progression can be hit or miss though. I wear the level 40-50 karma set on my guardian (transmuted over level 80 exotics), which cost me all of 2k karma to get because I don't want to run around in any of the dungeon or exotic and look like a giant flaming *, especially if I wear the flavour of the month flame legion shit.

Maybe learn what the whining is about before you pop by. Plenty of end-game they could have added without adding another tier of armor with + stats above exotics. They kept stating that grind would be for skins, not for stats. Terrible direction thats been taken. I had a lot of hope for the direction of this game after Act 2 during Halloween. The addition of Ascension armor and TERRIBLE skill updates has shaken that quite a bit. I've been a fan of GW since day 1 of the original. This is disappointing.

Yeah, no. If people actually did what they said it would be a different situation, but it only takes two seconds to notice people won't even log in unless there is some item for them to get and some reason to get it. Actions speak louder than words and all those characters farming in the cursed shore send a clear message. This doesn't change the fact the addition of a new tier doesn't make you change your activity at all. If you don't want it don't get it, you can still operate in every single zone with no issues. Not only that but dungeons also have additional loot options and additional loot now, so original dungeons are also more rewarding. The infusions are literally horizontal progression, if you don't want to do that content don't do it. This update adds something different that might not be for everyone, you still have the entire game (plus one more zone) if you don't want to do the new dungeons.

What skill updates are terrible? The vast majority of the skill updates make them actually work or work better than before or are obvious buffs. It's pretty hard to find a marginal nerf and even then it's PvP-only. You're going to have to be more specific.

It might be impossible but these players, the most hardcore as you call them, are the only ones who actually count in the end. If a game, especially an MMO, fails to please this crowd then it's going to be mediocre at best.

If we had concrete numbers to prove that all the hardcore players spend more money on the game than all the casuals combined (for example, bought more copies of the game or spent more money at the gem store), then you might have a point. Otherwise it sounds a bit extreme to say that hardcore players 'are the only ones who actually count in the end'.

I also believe that it is suicide for anybody to try their darndest to please those who are impossible to please. We're wasting time and resources on those who will never be happy, and neglecting those who we *can* please. End result: nobody is happy.

Anet is treading a fine line. They have made a gamble which fortunately, they have appeared to win at this point. If we look at the Ascended Items poll, we can clearly see that nearly 45% of voters did not support the addition of this new tier. Yet, an overwhelming 71% of voters will still continue to play the game. This is Anet's game. They can choose to push the boundaries however they like. Only time will tell when they cross the line and lose substantial support from their playerbase.

Besides, adding an additional tier of gear hardly constitutes an addition of content, in my opinion. It has not added more 'game'. It has just added more work for players to do.

[...] people won't even log in unless there is some item for them to get and some reason to get it.

Total and utter nonsense from where I sit.

Why do Ultima Online players log in when they're already quite rich and there are no elusive 'phat lewts' for them left to get? Why do Minecraft players continue to log in after they've accrued a decent amount of resources? Why do LittleBigPlanet players keep at it even after unlocking everything? If the game is fun then people will keep playing it. It's as simple as that. And if it's fun, then person X will tell person Y that it's fun and the population will inflate.

What's happening right now is that the population seems to be deflating, and that's likely due to people getting fed up of ArenaNet backpedalling from their original design decisions and telling their friends that GW2 is just another 'also ran,' and far too WoW-like in many respects for its own good.

Most pen & paper, tabletop, single-player, and multi-player games have limited to no progression. To insinuate that people will abandon a genuinely fun game just because it doesn't have those 'phat lewts' is painfully ridiculous. There are loads of games out there, right now, which completely deny this notion. You've just been conditioned to believe that the skinnerbox method is the only way to do things, just because that's all you've been exposed to. I recommend putting the MMO genre down for a bit and trying other games.

If the experience is enjoyable, people will continue to play it. The treadmill is just a matter of hooking the weak of mind and easily addicted for a little while when the game itself just isn't fun enough to hold their attention.

Krazzar, on 16 November 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

[...] all those characters farming [...]

Characters or bots? It's a fair question and you know it. This game is Internet famous right now for its botting problems, there are memes about it, even.

It's not about money spent, not at all. Hardcore players are the only ones that count because those will be the most famous ones in that game's community. The ones everyone talks about with others, players and non-players alike. ArenaNet wins this gamble because their loyal fans don't want to give up just yet, as long as there is hope left they will come back for the most part and since no one knows the future for certain there will always be hope left you see. It's their game indeed, they can do whatever they want if it means success and more money for them and they can very well cross the line by going completely back on every single thing they've wanted to make different, which will happen eventually. They might lose a few players but it's worth this tiny sacrifice since it means 6-7 new players for each one lost. More work for players to do equals players playing for longer than usual. It's exactly what this game needs, a constant amount of players online at any given time.

Even if they give 2x as many, it's still an insane grind for a single piece.

n00854180t, on 15 November 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

So about 45 minutes for a full run of all 3 fractals. So that's a mere 25.5 hours (of NOTHING but grinding the dungeon, not including any downtime) to get one Gift of Ascension, which is almost certainly not the only thing required.

If it takes a Gift of Ascension and one of the accessories, that number balloons to 93 hours of pure grinding (no downtime accounted for etc.).

In case you are not aware, i will point it out for you: you are actively trying to have a problem with new update.

Even if they do 2x reward
If run takes x minutes you need y days of grind

If you take:
"you have no idea what rewards will be"
and:
"you have some idea how long run will take but no solid numbers"
and put them together and mix in a special way, you can indeed get number 93 hours.

Firstly there is little grind unless you want it to exist.
You can play the game have fun finish it and move on,
Or you can play it and try to max our things at this point there is some grind.

Then finally you can go for some of the top end items ascended legendary etc infuse your armour and go into the new dungeons.
One of more of those needs a lot of grind.
But its not essential to the game and its not a requirement that you follow it.
Its been included because some players want it. players that have done all the rest and want more.

Anet have always said no grind and some players have fought them tooth and nail over it.
So they came up with a compromise, Grind if you want to don't if you don't want to.

Now the argument seems to be I want the stuff you have to grind for but I don't want to grind for it because you said there was no grind.
Honestly listen to yourselves your picking an argument where there isn't one.

And rightfully so. After all for every GW1 player exist 6-7 WoW players. It is only logical for ArenaNet to cater to us instead of GW1 fans who want nothing to do in a MMO as it seems. It boggles my mind how someone wouldn't want a gear treadmill in their game when it is this necessary or why else do you think did ArenaNet add this system? I hope ArenaNet can stay this course and not cave in to cater to this niche crowd once more. GW2 already failed because they deviated from the original MMO formula. Grave mistake.

In GW1 there was a lot of thing to do, without grinding the equipment. The new areas that were added were more difficult than the older, (for example dungeons in GWEN), and yet you had to complete them using the same equipment you had some years earlier. You just learned to play better!

Firstly there is little grind unless you want it to exist.
You can play the game have fun finish it and move on,
Or you can play it and try to max our things at this point there is some grind.

Then finally you can go for some of the top end items ascended legendary etc infuse your armour and go into the new dungeons.
One of more of those needs a lot of grind.
But its not essential to the game and its not a requirement that you follow it.
Its been included because some players want it. players that have done all the rest and want more.

Anet have always said no grind and some players have fought them tooth and nail over it.
So they came up with a compromise, Grind if you want to don't if you don't want to.

Now the argument seems to be I want the stuff you have to grind for but I don't want to grind for it because you said there was no grind.
Honestly listen to yourselves your picking an argument where there isn't one.

No, I just want the stuff I've already grinded for to be relevant more than three months after the games release.

I got quite a few sets of Obsidian armor and a number of prestige sets. Some I got within a couple days of playing, some took me months.

The big difference is, every thing I did in Guild Wars to get those armor sets was fun. It's not fun in Guild Wars 2.

I think a bit of that is rosy-tinted glasses, because I for one got extremely tired of ecto farming. It had its moments and rewards, but it was still a grind. Now, I'm not saying that GW2's methods have been the best so far; I wish that all sets of armor had a standard method of being obtained, and I think GW1's method was good enough: Gather mats. You can divvy up the drops however you like, in effect making some obtainable easier through spamming dungeons, but I don't agree with spamming the crap out of one single dungeon for a set of gear, or farming karma, etc.

Exotic stat armor can be acquired through various means: crafting, karma, dungeon tokens, or PvP.

Of those methods to acquire Exotic stat armor, crafting requires materials which you can purchase or gather yourself. You can earn gold and acquire materials all over the game.

Karma is acquired through events and daily/monthly achievements. You can earn karma all over the game.

PvP and Dungeon exotic skins are more grindy but you already have two easy methods to acquire exotic stats, dungeon/PvP armor is more for appearance.

Ascended items, however, appear to require high amounts of grind of one specific area, the 9 random mini dungeons. Anet has said you would be able to craft or Mystic Forge the items, but those methods likely will require items from the dungeon (Gift of Ascension).

Even in GW1, skins could be acquired through gold (platinum) alone (and a short run to FoW).

Fractal tokens appear to be account bound. So for the short (more likely, long) term, until Anet adds crafting recipes, you are forced to do a dungeon to acquire better gear, not just a fancy skin.

But let's just wait and see first, before storming Anet with torches and pitchforks. After all, they love to get us all worked up, teasing us with partial information.

thank you very much, this is mostly what i have been saying a few times in other threads. i got all my exotics by crafting them myself, and i got my resources from different activities, all over the world. some mats i farmed, some i bought, and i levelled all my professions ( except cooking, but i am getting there ).

i want to be able to get max stat with my method of choice. and i go to dungeons, i just find them less interesting, than the rest of the world, so i am glad i did not have to get dungeon tokens, even tho i have a few lying around, and might eventually have enough for the legendaries crafing.

Yeah, no. If people actually did what they said it would be a different situation, but it only takes two seconds to notice people won't even log in unless there is some item for them to get and some reason to get it. Actions speak louder than words and all those characters farming in the cursed shore send a clear message. This doesn't change the fact the addition of a new tier doesn't make you change your activity at all. If you don't want it don't get it, you can still operate in every single zone with no issues. Not only that but dungeons also have additional loot options and additional loot now, so original dungeons are also more rewarding. The infusions are literally horizontal progression, if you don't want to do that content don't do it. This update adds something different that might not be for everyone, you still have the entire game (plus one more zone) if you don't want to do the new dungeons.

What skill updates are terrible? The vast majority of the skill updates make them actually work or work better than before or are obvious buffs. It's pretty hard to find a marginal nerf and even then it's PvP-only. You're going to have to be more specific.

Agreed.

As much as many of us can live without gear progression, the majority seems to not want to login without something worth chasing.
Still, I believe they didn't need a new tier to do this; for instance, in GW1 they put new items with the same stats but more powerful mods; same they could do in GW2.

Grind a dungeon a crap ton of times or don't and be less powerfull than everyone else.
Get what you need for ascended armor through other in game means, drops etc.
Get the infusions or be unable to play certain content.

Those are your choices. Welcome to World Of Warcraft 2.0

If anyone tells you the stat difference is small and doesn't matter is talking out of there b*tt.

These people (the very few that leave) will probably buy any expansion and probably come back in for any major content upgrade. I highly doubt any sizable or noticeable amount of people will quit for good over this.
also- nobody really knows exactly what's going on.. it's a lot of chicken little, the sky is falling speculation without hard evidence.. yet.

We can revisit this topic after we observe and quantify the gear additions.

Just because they are not aware they can ask a refund, leaving. Spread this information, and watch

Jason Seven, on 16 November 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

It might be impossible but these players, the most hardcore as you call them, are the only ones who actually count in the end. If a game, especially an MMO, fails to please this crowd then it's going to be mediocre at best. Indeed, ArenaNet did very well know that this would upset their tiny playerbase and that's exactly why they did it. Believe it or not, but this is their way of showing their so called "loyal" playerbase what they are actually worth to them in the grand scheme of things. Even a blind man can see who ArenaNet wants to play their game and it's certainly not their former customers. Pleasing the 80% is easy but the other 20% are what actually counts. GW2 is already on life support as it is, this was a very necessary change in direction and might just be in time for them to expand on this idea to bring in more of those 20%. After all, if ArenaNet had been satisfied with their former playerbase, then why did they create an entirely new game? Because they couldn't continue working on GW1? Because they wanted to give back to their fans? Dream on. More money, that's the sole and only true reason. Yet, more money cannot be acquired with the same exact amount of customers. They need new customers and a lot of them.

A bunch of panda kids bored of their beloved other game, is the core of gw2? Haha. An hardcore gamer will have the entire set in a few days. What's next? Grind like an idiot 3000 tokens? Some could even say k fine i'll do it. But with exploits. If you don't get it, we are not korens who enjoy a brainless grind of the same content 500 times no matter if fun or not and if worth. Higher tier gear grind is making 80% of the playerbase disappointed, some are leaving, most are waiting a few days and if the game is the trash they expect, leave. 20% stay until everything is done. Then..? Erm.. then map will be sooooo silent. Guess why now. A winning company is a company who cares of this core playerbase, not the one who gable attempting to praise a few losers bored of their main game. If their game is fixed a bit and became a bit more enjoyable, they go back asap, who gives a damn of gw2 and if they was at 2132 tokens of 3000 needed and half of the new gear tier

Uh why would they stay? There was no treadmill. Do you not remember all the complaining about it, and (them)having nothing to do at max level? In my gaming community a lot of people quit soon after 80.

This is WHY anet are doing this. Do you honestly not understand?

No, I understand completely and without doubt. It is, after all, a very simple concept. My question was asking for evidence to state the correlation between people who have left and the unanimous desire for a gear grind from them. So far it has been backed by multiple people saying, "Why not?" or "Because that's the way it is" or "I said so." It's convenient to create claims which will fuel an argument, coincidental to use claims that fuel an argument that have no opposition and just bad practice to believe your claims as truth and defend them as such.

Thanks for asking, though.

*Edit* It would seem that, once again, logic fails to elicit any useful responses on the internet. Shoulda known =) I'll not be replying to any quoted messages of mine again.

It's not about money spent, not at all. Hardcore players are the only ones that count because those will be the most famous ones in that game's community. The ones everyone talks about with others, players and non-players alike.

Well, then my best wishes to Anet. Because as said before by numerous others, the hardcore players are the most 'content-hungry'. We ain't likely to keep these folk happy for any more than a week regardless of how much 'content' we put out. Hence, Anet can stop trying, because no amount of effort on their part will be enough. I still recall the first days after release...it wasn't long before players were hitting 80 and then complaining there was nothing else to do. If a game that is years in the making was unable to please some people for just 10 days, how can Anet ever hope to hold the demands back with a patch that took a few weeks to produce?

On the point of 'famous' players, as far as I'm concerned, the players I remember are the ones who were genuinely nice and helpful, especially the ones I've had a chat with, partied up or run a dungeon with, not the ones who became 'famous' through being geared to the teeth and looking all pretty standing around in LA. When the two come together however, then that's perfection.

No, I understand completely and without doubt. It is, after all, a very simple concept. My question was asking for evidence to state the correlation between people who have left and the unanimous desire for a gear grind from them. So far it has been backed by multiple people saying, "Why not?" or "Because that's the way it is" or "I said so." It's convenient to create claims which will fuel an argument, coincidental to use claims that fuel an argument that have no opposition and just bad practice to believe your claims as truth and defend them as such.

Thanks for asking, though.

*Edit* It would seem that, once again, logic fails to elicit any useful responses on the internet. Shoulda known =) I'll not be replying to any quoted messages of mine again.

The evidence is in Anet bringing in more gear grind. Or do you think they are doing this for the people still playing? Because they seem pretty opposed to it lol.