Pro and Con 1518

Posted 10-25-09

Incoming e-mail, Re: Dead shall rise first

1Thessalonians 4:16, 17 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

First of all we need to understand who the dead is that will be raised first. We know that Paul was referring to the last trumpet, the dead will be raised. The dead that are being raised in 1Thess. 4:16 are the same dead that Paul speaks of in 1Corinthians 15:52. In Revelation 11:15 we see the seventh Angel sound the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet. Now when we understand that the seventh angle sounding the last trumpet, is the trumpet that raises the dead in Christ first. Then we will know who the two witnesses are, because the two witnesses are dead before the last trumpet sounds. We can take the last trumpet in Revelation 11:15 back to the last trumpet that Paul spoke on and see who the dead is that will be raised. Jesus said in Matthew 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

We can see the great Tribulations going on in Revelation 11 with the two witnesses, these two witnesses have risen up against Babylon, all of the untruth that is coming out of Babylon and this is why fire is coming out of their mouth. It has always been the truth that offended people, when the two witnesses are bring truth to those who disobeys the truth, the truth will seem like fire coming out of their mouth. These two witnesses are both Jew and Gentile that have been made one with Christ and they are killed for the Love of Christ and they will lay in the street for three and one half days. These two witnesses are all of the Saints of God that are alive during the Great Tribulations.

When the last trumpet sounds the dead in Christ will be raised first, the dead that will be raised at the sound of the last trumpet are those who goes through the great Tribulations. For this reason John saw only those who were arrayed in white gathered around the throne of the Lamb with the twenty four elders in Revelation 7:9-15. Now we can go into Revelation 20 and see the those who went through the Great Tribulations who were beheaded for the Christ that never worshiped the beast or his image. They never worshiped the beast or his image and they did not receive his mark on their foreheads or on their hand.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The first resurrection are for those who dies in the Great Tribulations and the second resurrection is after the one thousand reign with Christ then the graves will be opened. We know that Paul said that the dead in Christ would be raised first.

Those that are in the grave will not be raised up until after the thousand year reign with Christ has been completed. After the thousand year reign with Christ has been completed then and only then will the graves be opened, Revelation 20:11-15.

His sheep will be placed at the right hand of Christ and the goats will be placed at His left hand, Christ will say to those at His right hand welcome My good and faithful servant into the joy of the Lord, but those at His right hand will be cast out in outer darkness, Matthew 25:41.

I hope this helps.

My reply

> > We know that Paul was referring to the last trumpet, the dead will be raised. The dead that are being raised in 1Thess. 4:16 are the same dead that Paul speaks of in 1Corinthians 15:52.

There are 2 Raptures. The First-Trump Rapture is seen in 1Thess. 4:16. The Last-Trump Rapture is seen in I Cor. 15:52. The first trump of God sounds at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The last trump of God sounds at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> > In Revelation 11:15 we see the seventh Angel sound the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet. Now when we understand that the seventh angle sounding the last trumpet, is the trumpet that raises the dead in Christ first.

Those 7 trumpets are sounded by angels, not God. The Last-Trump Rapture is before the 7 angels are given the 7 trumpets of judgment. In Rev. 6:17, we see that the Day of God's Wrath has arrived. In Rev. 7:14, we see that the Tribulation saints have arrived in Heaven. After that, in Rev. 8, the 7 trumpets are given to the 7 angels.

> > These two witnesses are both Jew and Gentile that have been made one with Christ and they are killed for the Love of Christ and they will lay in the street for three and one half days. These two witnesses are all of the Saints of God that are alive during the Great Tribulations.

There are only two of God's witnesses mentioned in Rev. 11. I think they are Moses and Elijah. When Zechariah saw the lampstand and beside it two olive branches, he asked, "What be these TWO OLIVE BRANCHES which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech 4:12-14).

Who stood by the Lord of the whole earth at the Transfiguration? Moses and Elijah. Mark 9:4 says, "And there appeared unto them Elias (Elijah) with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."

Of the two witnesses, Rev 11:4 says, "These are the TWO OLIVE TREES, and the two candlesticks STANDING BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH."

> > The first resurrection are for those who dies in the Great Tribulations and the second resurrection is after the one thousand reign with Christ

The First Resurrection is for the saved from Adam to the Day of God's Wrath. It takes place in two stages, at the First-Trump Rapture and at the Last-Trump Rapture. The Second Resurrection is mainly for the lost from Adam's day to the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium.

> > Those that are in the grave will not be raised up until after the thousand year reign with Christ has been completed.

In Rev. 4:1, the Bride of Christ will be raised up.

Rev 4:1-4 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone (the first and last stones in the breastplate, showing that this is both the first and the last, LORD of the Old Testament and Lord of the New Testament, the Almighty): and there was a rainbow (Saturn's rings) round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone). And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (thrones): and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

John was one of the 24 elders, the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles. He was caught up to Heaven and sat down with the 11 elders that had been resurrected and caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture. In 5:9, all the saints sang the new song. They were there in Heaven when Jesus received the seven-sealed Title Deed of the Earth. They were in Heaven before the first seal was broken in Rev. 6.

> > His sheep will be placed at the right hand of Christ and the goats will be placed at His left hand, Christ will say to those at His right hand welcome My good and faithful servant into the joy of the Lord, but those at His right hand will be cast out in outer darkness, Matthew 25:41.

This will take place after Christ is given his kingdom at the beginning of the Millennium. Agape

Iceland Political Leader Calls For Debt Moratorium As Government Crumbles

REYKJAVIK, Iceland -- A leading member of the Icelandic parliament called Monday night for the country to declare a debt moratorium and stop attempting to pay the $6 billion which the British and Netherlands governments are seeking to extort from Iceland with the help of the International Monetary Fund and the European Commission in Brussels.

My reply to a post on the Five Doves site

Re: Ellison Go (20 Oct 2009)
"Anti Christ revealed, then the Rapture"

> > Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him.. Dont let anyone deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (antichrist) is revealed. -2Thesalonians 2:1,3

It is the other way around. The Rapture preceeds the revealing of the man of sin.

The Greek word apostasia translated "rebellion" above should be translated as "departing" as in the Geneva Bible and several other early translations, Wycliffe's, Tyndale's, Cranmer's, The Great Bible, Breecher's, Beza's, and the Coverdale Bible.

2Th 2:3 (Geneva, 1587) says, "Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a DEPARTING first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition".

The Day of the Lord will not come until after the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place and the False Prophet has been revealed. He will be the second son of perdition. Judas Iscariot was the first.

The Day of the Lord is also the Day of God's Wrath. It will end the rule of the False Prophet. Agape

My post on the Five Doves site

To Bruce Warner: The INDEFINITE EXTENSION clue in Dan 8:13-17

Don't give up on this year yet. "BE PATIENT". There's Kislev 24 of Haggai 2:18,19 to look forward to. The olive harvest will be completed by Hanukkah, Kislev 25.

From this day I will bless you

Haggai 2:18,19 says, "Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24), even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid (i.e., the temple of Jesus' body was concieved on Kislev 24), CONSIDER IT. Is the seed yet in the barn? (symbolic of conception) yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the OLIVE TREE, hath not brought forth: from this day (Kislev 24) will I bless you."

The judge standeth at the door

James 5:4-9 says, "Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. BE PATIENT therefore, brethren (believers), UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD. Behold, the husbandman WAITETH for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain (Nisan 1 and Tishri 1). BE YE ALSO PATIENT; stablish your hearts: for THE COMING OF THE LORD DRAWETH NIGH. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, THE JUDGE (JESUS) STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR (symbol of the Rapture)."

The Fig Tree Parable

As you know, the fig tree parable was fulfilled when Israel grew leaves (Gaza Strip, Sinai, West Bank and Golan Heights) in the Six-Day War of 1967.

Mt 24:32-34 says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting, i.e., modern Israel) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., no more than 19), and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh (the war started June 5; summer started June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Kingdom of God, Luke 21:31) is near, even at the doors (symbol of the 2 Raptures, Rev 3:8). Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled."

The Jubilee Year

5726 was a Sabbatic Year, it divides by 7 equally, so maybe 5727 (1967) was a Jubilee Year as you suggested. Israel did regain the Temple area, West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and Sinai.

Then you say maybe 5777 (1967 + 50 = 2017) could also be a Jubilee Year. I think the Jubilee Year will be 5776. Why? the Jubilee cycle is a 49-year cycle, not a 50-year cycle.

The 50th year is also year 1 of the new cycle. Therefore, starting with 5726, the sabbatic 49th year that preceeded the Jubilee Year of 5727, the 7 years 5733, 5740, 5747, 5754, 5761, 5768, and 5775 are Sabbatic Years, each dividing by 7 equally. Thus, I think 5776 would be the Jubilee Year, not 5777.

How could the Rapture be the Feast of Trumpets next year?

Thus it seems that both Raptures and the Tribulation surely have to take place by 2015.33 (Tishri 1, 2015, the Feast of Trumpets). 2015 - 2300 days was last Pentecost. It seems that we are overdue now. How could it be the Feast of Trumpets next year?

The promise

What are we promised? Luke 21:25-36 says, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring (we have had signs, and several tsunamis); Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then (tote, at the same time) shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory (I think the Sign of the Son of Man should be seen Tishri 1, 5776). And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (other nations); When they now shoot forth (in the Six-Day War of 1967), ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand (the war started June 5, summer started June 21). So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the KINGDOM OF GOD is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This GENERATION (48.33 years, Mt. 1:17) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. WATCH ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015) could be the Day of God's Wrath

To sum this much up, according to Mt. 1:17, a generation is 48.33 years. 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33. That brings us to Tishri 1, 5776. How it could be otherwise, I haven't been able to figure out. There would be the necessary 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Coming on Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016) too, because 5776 is a Leap Year with a 13th month.

THE CLUE I FOUND

The clue is in Dan 8:13-17. It says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (tamiyd, meaning to stretch; properly continuance, as INDEFINITE EXTENSION), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed (on Tishri 1, 5776?). And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for AT THE TIME OF THE END SHALL BE THE VISION....

Dan 8:26 says, "And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days."

It still seems to me that the 2300 days started last Pentecost and will end Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015). There will be 4 blood-moon eclipses in 2014 and 2015, not in 2016. They will alternate between the time of Passover and Tabernacles too. Nothing like that will take place the rest of this century. Also, last April 8 was the Blessing of the Sun. That was Nisan 14, the true Passover (Lev. 23:4,5), and it will never again fall on Nisan 14. This year is marked. So is 2015.

2520 days before Tishri 1, 5776 was Oct. 21, 2008. Could the 70th week of Daniel have started then? It seems likely. Did the Pope confirm a treaty? I remember reading something he wrote, but forget the details. Maybe you can refresh my memory on that. The whole world has had terrible financial troubles ever since the Dow was down 777.68 on Sept. 29. That 777.68 may have been meant to suggest 5776. We will have to keep watching the news.

Where does all this leave us? in the "INDEFINITE EXTENSION? It seems to be so. We are now approaching the times of Noah. He went into the Ark and it began to rain on Cheshvan 19 (Nov. 4, 2009, or the 6th, according to the Moon). It is as if we, every one of us his descendants, are in the Ark with him. Heb 7:9,10 says, "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

By the 40th day, the Ark had been lifted off of the ground

Can we expect to be lifted up too by the 40-day mark? Counting 40 days by Jewish Inclusive Reckoning, because it is a block of time, we come to Dec. 13, the day I was born into this world. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Rapture happened on my birthday. Our son David was born on April 6, day of the Crucifixion in 30 AD, and our daughter was born on May 29, Pentecost in 30 AD.

Kislev 25, first day of Hanukkah, will be Dec. 12. Maybe the Rapture could happen the night of Dec. 12/13. Kislev 25 was the day the Maccabees lit the lampstand with oil that was supposed to be only enough for one day, but it lasted 8 days. Having enough oil ties in with the wise virgins.

The Olive Harvest

1Ki 6:31 says, "for the ENTERING of the oracle he made doors of OLIVE TREE". Maybe we are the Olive Harvest. It ends at Hanukkah, and it takes 8 days to process new oil for the lamps. Maybe that is why the wise virgins could not afford to part with any of the oil they had. It would be 8 days before the foolish virgins could buy fresh oil for their lamps. We need to have the oil of the Holy Spirit ahead of time.
In Psa 52:8, David said, "I am like a green OLIVE TREE in the house of God".

Zech 4:12 says, "What be these two OLIVE BRANCHES which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?" They are the two men, Moses and Elijah, that stood by Jesus at the Transfiguration. These two are part of the saved among mankind. Maybe other saved people could also be called olive branches.

Rom 11:16-21,25 says, "For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being A WILD OLIVE TREE, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee....FOR IF THOU WERT CUT OUT OF THE OLIVE TREE WHICH IS WILD BY NATURE, AND WERT GRAFFED CONTRARY TO NATURE INTO A GOOD OLIVE TREE: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"

Our best watch date may be the Rapture on Kislev 24, the Eve of Hanukkah. Kislev 24, 5770 will be Dec. 11, 2009. However, since the new crescent Moon was not sighted on Sept. 19, 2009, but on Sept. 20, the true Kislev 24 could be on Dec. 13, my birthday. Keep watching. We should know soon. Agape

His reply

I sure hope you are right about a 'sooner than later' rapture! I would love to be wrong about having to wait until Fall 2010. YBIC, Bruce Warner

My reply to Bruce Warner's post on Five Doves site

My comments will be interspersed in yours and marked ***

Bruce Warner (24 Oct 2009)
"HERE IS WHAT WE KNOW FROM SCRIPTURE TO BE TRUE........"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2009/brucew1024-1.htm

#1 We know that the 'Second Coming' of our Lord Jesus Christ MUST fulfill the prophecy of the three 'Fall Feasts of God' just as He fulfilled the three 'Spring Feasts of God'.

***Could you back that up with some reasons why you think that is true? I think the Day of God's Wrath will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets. That's when the 7 trumpet judgments are to hit Earth. I think the Second Coming will be on the following Nisan 1, the first day of the Jubilee Year. Eze. 38:18-20 takes place on the Day of God's Wrath. In Eze. 39:12,13, 23, we find out that there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent. That can only be true in a Jewish Leap Year that has a 13th month between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1. The year 5776 is a leap year. 5777 is not.

#2 We know that the 'Second Coming' will occur at the END of the '70th Week of Daniel' also known as the 'seven-year tribulation'.

***I think the Second Coming will be 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath deposes the False Prophet and wipes out Babylon when the world-wide earthquake occurs.

*** Jesus will return in glory. That can't happen on the Day of God's Wrath.

#3 Therefore, we know that the tribulation will BEGIN on, or very near, the three 'Fall Feasts of God' seven-years prior to 'His Second Coming'.

***Since the last half of the Tribulation, called the Great Tribulation, is to be shortened, the 7 years cannot both start and end on the Feast of Trumpets.

#4 We know that the 'confirming or signing' of the seven-year "covenant with many" will BOTH reveal the identity of the anti-Christ and begin the '70th Week of Daniel' ie. the tribulation.

***That could turn out to be true.

#5 We know that the anti-Christ MUST be revealed to the world before the 'rapture of the Church' can occur.

***I don't think so. The Rapture of the Church comes before the first beast of Rev. 13 is revealed. Your position is the fault of the KJV translators of 2 Thess. 2:1-4. Major MSS have been found since that translation was made that show us how that passage should be translated. Wycliff's translation was before the KJV.

***Below, the words in brackets in Wycliff's translation are that way in the original. The "departing away" is the Rapture. He showed that the original word could be translated two ways. Departing is the one that makes sense with Luke 21:36.

*** II Thess. 2:1-4 (Wycliff) says, "But, brethren, we pray you by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our congregation into the same coming [into the same thing], that ye be not moved soon from your wit, neither be afeared [neither be aghast], neither by spirit, neither by word, neither by epistle as sent by us, as if the day of the Lord be nigh. [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition, that is adversary, and is enhanced over [upon] all thing that is said God, or that is worshipped, so that he sit in the temple of God, and show himself as if he were God."

***Luke 21:36 (Wycliff) says, "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to ESCAPE ALL that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." The wise virgins will ESCAPE ALL and "stand before the Son of Man" at the time of the Rapture.

By knowing the 'Scriptural Truths' listed above it seems intuitively obvious that the 'confirming or signing' the seven-year 'covenant with many' which reveals the identity of the anti-Christ, begins the seven-year tribulation, and allows the 'RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH' will ALL occur in a very 'short span of time'. Like "in the twinkling of an eye"!

When the anti-Christ puts his signature on the seven-year "covenant with many" all speculation as to his identity will come to an immediate halt. At that moment the '70th Week of Daniel' begins ie. the tribulation, and the 'rapture of the Church' will be allowed to occur. All of the Scriptural 'hurdles' required prior to the rapture will have been fulfilled at that time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (raptured) to Him ..........................Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL ..........the man of lawlessness is revealed.........."............... but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till He is taken out of the way."

NOW CONSIDER THIS:

If the 'Second Coming' of the Lord is scheduled to happen during the three 'Fall Feasts' of the Year 5778 ( September 21, 2017 ) then it is likely that the signing of the 'covenant with many' revealing the anti-Christ, the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel ie. the tribulation, and the 'rapture of the Church' will ALL occur on or during the three 'Fall Feasts' of the Year 2010.

***After 5776, there are no leap years with 7 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1 until 5779. Therefore, I don't expect the Second Advent after 5776.