I later found out that Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes was going to have chapters about various conflicts in the D&D Multiverse and that the illithid/Gith conflict was the subject of one of those chapters.

There was later a revelation that the Giff would be in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but I didn't hear anything about the empire that Mike Mearls had spoken about before.

I was kind of hoping that a few existing or new illithid Spelljammer planets might get a namecheck as far-away places where major battles or defeats had taken place.

A friend told me he had the book, and I asked him to have a look, but he couldn't find anything. Then we got interrupted and I lost the opportunity to ask more questions.

Aside from the Giff referenence, has anyone seen anything about Spelljammer in Tome of Foes? And is any reference to the make-up of the former Illithid empire? Or is this stuff that Mike Mearls was talking about content that might have been cut from the book?

Aside from the Giff referenence, has anyone seen anything about Spelljammer in Tome of Foes?

Aside from a brief mention that githyanki ships are powered by helms, no, I don't see anything specific to Spelljammer in the book. The giff are described as spacefaring, but there's no explanation for how that could be possible or what it entails.

And is any reference to the make-up of the former Illithid empire? Or is this stuff that Mike Mearls was talking about content that might have been cut from the book?

Illithids are mentioned in passing as enemies of the gith races who had enslaved them long ago, but the focus in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is on the gith, not the illithids.

The reason for this is that illithids already got a chapter in Volo's Guide to Monsters, which does have a bit on their empire, though it doesn't mention any specific planets. Volo's Guide has it that the ancient illithid empire existed primarily on the Astral Plane, from which they used planejamming nautiloids to "harvest intelligent humanoids from hundreds of worlds." After Gith's rebellion, which we're told lasted less than a year, "Only the mind flayers that had infiltrated the worlds of the Material Plane survived."

wait, one year? seriously? the entire gith rebellion took one year?? that's it??????

....

well, not like i was planning on using their flavour text anyways. but seriously, in an empire that size, it should take more than one year for a person on one "end" of the empire to hear something from the other "end", let alone make the shift from being a bunch of random slaves to a full-fledged army. the writers knew that back when they wrote up the unhuman war because i know they mention the fact that in some spheres the war is "over" for some groups while in other spheres it continues to rage on for years afterwards even though it may have officially ended because word hasn't reached those places that the main backbone of the s'cro fleet was defeated and so forth, so the s'cro in those areas haven't left to regroup but also haven't been defeated (or rather, the fleets of orcs, goblins, kobolds, etc that they command have not been defeated).

wait, one year? seriously? the entire gith rebellion took one year?? that's it??????

Kinda my reaction, too. Unless the gith rebels managed to sneak into a military outpost and detonate some sort of superweapon that wiped out 99.99999% of the illithid empire, I just don't see it. I sorta expect something lasting generations, perhaps even with Gith herself having to swap bodies to survive the long war.

Aside from the Giff referenence, has anyone seen anything about Spelljammer in Tome of Foes?

Aside from a brief mention that githyanki ships are powered by helms, no, I don't see anything specific to Spelljammer in the book. The giff are described as spacefaring, but there's no explanation for how that could be possible or what it entails.

Thanks. That's pretty much what my other friend was able to find before he got interrupted.

And is any reference to the make-up of the former Illithid empire? Or is this stuff that Mike Mearls was talking about content that might have been cut from the book?

Illithids are mentioned in passing as enemies of the gith races who had enslaved them long ago, but the focus in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is on the gith, not the illithids.

The reason for this is that illithids already got a chapter in Volo's Guide to Monsters, which does have a bit on their empire, though it doesn't mention any specific planets. Volo's Guide has it that the ancient illithid empire existed primarily on the Astral Plane, from which they used planejamming nautiloids to "harvest intelligent humanoids from hundreds of worlds." After Gith's rebellion, which we're told lasted less than a year, "Only the mind flayers that had infiltrated the worlds of the Material Plane survived."

I'm kind of disappointed by that (not by Volo's Guide to Monsters but by the fact that Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes does not have the chapters that explain conflicts in the D&D Multiverse that I was expecting. I figured there would be 50 percent story on the illithids and 50 percent story on the followers of Gith.

And while I like the Giff, I would have preferred to have seen the Pirates of Gith officially tied into the Githyanki, as part of some sort of privateers sent to hunt down illithids in Wildspace and requisition ships and helms to help with the "war effort".

What you said about Volo's Guide to Monsters would also seem to explain why Spelljammer fans keep talking about the Astral Sea. It conflicts with the description that Mike Meals was giving about the origins of the illithids. It's almost as if there are two WotC designers who are both doing different things with the illithid empire concept...and not talking to each other.

I know that the 3e book Monster Manual V had illithids using nautiloid ships to travel to the Far Realm. So illithids travelling the planes in ships is not a new thing. And even Spelljammer had the Pirates of Gith travelling to the Astral Plane on spelljamming ships. So it's not a new concept.

It might also make some sort of sense for Githyanki to kill illithids in the Astral Plane and then take over their astral bases to use as their own.

But I don't think that mind flayers being mostly based in the Astral Plane works as well as mind flayers travelling around the crystal spheres...as a mechanism for having mind flayers spread to many or most D&D worlds.

If Mike Mearls's D&D Beyond videos are actually the "official way that WotC is going to go with this" then I hope they clear this issue up in a future book.

wait, one year? seriously? the entire gith rebellion took one year?? that's it??????

Kinda my reaction, too. Unless the gith rebels managed to sneak into a military outpost and detonate some sort of superweapon that wiped out 99.99999% of the illithid empire, I just don't see it. I sorta expect something lasting generations, perhaps even with Gith herself having to swap bodies to survive the long war.

Well they do have that vague travel time stuff in Planescape, where you can travel long distances in the Astral Plane in a fairly short amount of time. But the mathematics seems very improbable.

You would almost need Gith to develop a network of spies/saboteurs that was similar to the French Resistance in WWII...ahead of that year long rebellion.

The year long rebellion would need to be the time taken for the war to spread from one side of the Astral Plane to the other side...with GIth's followers using tactics that were so effective that they prevented any illithids from spreading news of the rebellion.

What Mike Mearls was saying on D&D Beyond seemed to suggest that the illithids we see in D&D products are small pockets of survivors that escaped the rebellion and that the githyanki hunt them down and kill them all if they find them. That implies that the githyanki are a lot better at killing mind flayers than illithids are at killing githyanki.

I don't think I saw anything about tactics, but if you look at things logistically, illithids need to eat brains. If the githyanki could besiege them and stop them gaining access to slaves, they would eventually starve to death.

If the githyanki located an illithid slave colony on an asteroid in wildspace, dropped things that killed the slaves and shot down every nautiloid that tried to take off, would the illithids be able to last for a year?

I know that the 3e book Monster Manual V had illithids using nautiloid ships to travel to the Far Realm. So illithids travelling the planes in ships is not a new thing. And even Spelljammer had the Pirates of Gith travelling to the Astral Plane on spelljamming ships. So it's not a new concept.

It might also make some sort of sense for Githyanki to kill illithids in the Astral Plane and then take over their astral bases to use as their own.

Even 2nd edition lore (Dawn of the Overmind) had it that the illithids ruled the Astral and Ethereal Planes completely but only ruled "several" crystal spheres on the Prime Material. And the CHAINMAIL article "Underground Scenarios" in Dragon #294 said that the illithids invaded Zarum from the Astral Plane, returning there with gith slaves rather than remaining on the Prime Material to rule.

Though what The Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon referred to as "the False Worlds" were probably on the Prime Material Plane. The Field of Husks must have been on the Prime, anyway, since nothing grows on the Astral Plane. I suspect both the Field of Husks and the Blasted Plains were on Penumbra (the Blasted Plains might just be what the Field of Husks were called after the gith were done with them).

Last edited by ripvanwormer on Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Well they do have that vague travel time stuff in Planescape, where you can travel long distances in the Astral Plane in a fairly short amount of time. But the mathematics seems very improbable.

Unless the Gith war was a Plutonian Year, I think it was too short. I have similar complaints with sci fi where they take galaxy-wide wars and reduce them to really short frames (the 3-year Clone Wars, looking at you ). Longer wars gives more time for more stories, for characters to be involved with more important events, and leave them time to recover and rest between grand campaigns. And to plan their next grand conquest, gather supplies, etc.

You would almost need Gith to develop a network of spies/saboteurs that was similar to the French Resistance in WWII...ahead of that year long rebellion.

Certainly. I imagine Gith ran around for a long, long time before actual fighting broke out winning over people, making allies, and such.

The year long rebellion would need to be the time taken for the war to spread from one side of the Astral Plane to the other side...with GIth's followers using tactics that were so effective that they prevented any illithids from spreading news of the rebellion.

Genghis Khan used similar tactics and it took well over a year for him to conquer China. I personally mark "1 year rebellion" down as either another myth or merely counts the final battle of a grand, century-long campaign.

What Mike Mearls was saying on D&D Beyond seemed to suggest that the illithids we see in D&D products are small pockets of survivors that escaped the rebellion and that the githyanki hunt them down and kill them all if they find them. That implies that the githyanki are a lot better at killing mind flayers than illithids are at killing githyanki.

We've known that for many years, really ever since the illithid empire was envisioned. Were the Gith united and not suffering under a civil war, its possible they might have already exterminated the last illithid outposts but their own infighting has made that goal all but impossible now. The illithids are now probably stronger than the two combined, but too scattered and isolated to take the fight to the gith.

If the githyanki located an illithid slave colony on an asteroid in wildspace, dropped things that killed the slaves and shot down every nautiloid that tried to take off, would the illithids be able to last for a year?

A single asteroid outpost? Sure; but that's just a small siege, not a campaign against an illithid-controlled world like Glyth, Falx, or even Penumbra. Those places likely have enough non-illithid populations to be completely self-sufficient and immune to any blockade the gith could muster. I can't imagine the gith managed to besieged every city, throughout the entire empire, all at once, from nowhere. That's a ludicrous amount of man-power, coordination, and supplies to handle that across just one country, much less across a multitude of worlds, particularly those as large as Penumbra.

The only way I could see that working would be if Gith wasn't a person: it was a virus that infected the non-illithid population. Spread by mental contact, no cure, no defense. A gith-infected slave meanders into an illithid city, and by morning the entire slave population is now gith and in full revolt. I suppose that could work, and by the end of the year, the Gith virus had mutated to a point where it was no longer contagious and instead stabilized as the Gith race we know today.

Planescape: Torment wrote:*Know* that the Rising of the People against the *illithid* was a thing built upon many turnings. Many were the People who lived and died under time's blade while the Rising was shaped.

The Rising was shaped upon a slow foundation. Steel was gathered so that it might mark *illithid* flesh. A means of *knowing* the movements of the *illithids* were established, at first weak and confused, then stronger, like a child finding its voice. When the movements were *known,* then the *illithids* were observed. In observing them, their ways of the mind were *known.*

When the ways of the *illithid* were *known,* many of the People were gathered and taught in secret the means to shield their minds, and the way to harness their will as weapons. They were taught the scripture of steel, and most importantly, they were given the *knowing* of freedom.

These things were not learned quickly. The *knowing* of much of the ways was slow, and in all these things, time's weight fell upon all. From the *knowing* of one's reflection in a steel blade, to the *knowing* of submerging the will, to the *knowing* of seeing itself. All of these things and more the People built upon. In time, they came to *know* the whole.

What Volo's Guide to Monsters says is "Eventually, the gith revolted. Whether the mind flayers became decadent or the gith discovered a weakness, none can say. What is known is that after centuries of domination, the mind flayer empire collapsed in less than a year. The gith rose up, slaughtered their masters, and destroyed almost all traces of the illithids' astral domains."

The narrative voice in Volo's Guide (Volo, I guess, or Elminster) seems skeptical about this narrative. "A few skeptics suggest that the entire narrative of the gith victory rings false. How could a slave race overpower the mind flayers? Where are the signs of this great struggle? Perhaps the gith didn't actually win. Perhaps, instead, the mind flayers moved themselves and their works into the future to avoid being overrun. That theory would explain the mind flayers' disappearance and the absence of any ruins from their empire. Few folk take such talk seriously, yet no one can be sure exactly what the illithids are and are not capable of." So if "the mind flayer empire collapsed in less than a year" sounds too pat, that might be deliberate.

Aside from the Giff referenence, has anyone seen anything about Spelljammer in Tome of Foes?

One thing I missed before. On page 209, Mordenkainen suggests that gray renders (a monster introduced in the 3rd edition Monster Manual) were created by the neogi. Their attachment to their masters does remind me of the relationship between neogi and umber hulks.

On page 81, the journal of one Garral Longseer records a vision of the end of the illithid empire: "I saw an alien empire in a formless, silver realm vanish in the wink of an eye, its slaves left to fend for themselves." Again suggesting that the gith didn't actually defeat them, but rather that the illithids simply left.

I know that the 3e book Monster Manual V had illithids using nautiloid ships to travel to the Far Realm. So illithids travelling the planes in ships is not a new thing. And even Spelljammer had the Pirates of Gith travelling to the Astral Plane on spelljamming ships. So it's not a new concept.

It might also make some sort of sense for Githyanki to kill illithids in the Astral Plane and then take over their astral bases to use as their own.

Even 2nd edition lore (Dawn of the Overmind) had it that the illithids ruled the Astral and Ethereal Planes completely but only ruled "several" crystal spheres on the Prime Material.

Maybe I misinterpreted what Mike Mearls said. That was why I was hoping the details would be nailed down in Tome of Foes.

I'll have to have another read of Dawn of the Overmind to see how that describes the empire.

I had previously seen illithids mentioned as flying nautiloids from Eberron into the planes and thought that was a 3e reboot to how Spelljammer works. But, from what you say here, illithids flying around in the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane is as canon as canon can get.

That would also seem to suggest that the Astral Sea thing in the 4e books is more in keeping with the illithids and the gith than the factions the PCs would interact with in the Known Spheres.

And the CHAINMAIL article "Underground Scenarios" in Dragon #294 said that the illithids invaded Zarum from the Astral Plane, returning there with gith slaves rather than remaining on the Prime Material to rule.

Hmm. You are now making me wonder if their slave raids might involve nautiloids attacking from the Astral Plane.

Though what The Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon referred to as "the False Worlds" were probably on the Prime Material Plane. The Field of Husks must have been on the Prime, anyway, since nothing grows on the Astral Plane. I suspect both the Field of Husks and the Blasted Plains were on Penumbra (the Blasted Plains might just be what the Field of Husks were called after the gith were done with them).

I don't know what any of this stuff is.

I think I need to do some reading to work out how the illithid empire fits into the D&D Multiverse (and the crystal spheres).

The idea of using the Prime Material Plane to get time to work makes sense. I suppose that illithids might not need to constantly eat brains in the Astral Plane. They might also not be able to implant tadpoles into victims.

But, from what you say here, illithids flying around in the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane is as canon as canon can get.

Keep in mind (pun not intended) that mind flayers had the power to travel to the Astral Plane with their innate psionics/spell-like abilities. That's not the same as nautiloids having plane-traveling abilities (which they don't in Spelljammer, though they do in 5e).

Though what The Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon referred to as "the False Worlds" were probably on the Prime Material Plane. The Field of Husks must have been on the Prime, anyway, since nothing grows on the Astral Plane. I suspect both the Field of Husks and the Blasted Plains were on Penumbra (the Blasted Plains might just be what the Field of Husks were called after the gith were done with them).

I don't know what any of this stuff is.

The Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon is a document engraved on a puzzle-like disk describing Gith's rebellion from the point of view of the githzerai. It features in the computer game Planescape: Torment.

Its veracity is dubious because it turns out that its writer had ulterior motives, trying to control the githzerai Dak'kon by planting doubts in his mind about his faith. That said, it was orthodox enough that Dak'kon didn't question its authenticity, so I assume the broad strokes are consonant with githzerai belief, minus the parts that imply that Zerthimon was a traitor (which doesn't mean he wasn't, just that the Unbroken Circle isn't good evidence of this).

According to the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon, the illithids abducted the gith forerunners from a place the githzerai call the First World and brought them to the False Worlds, which probably means the worlds under the control of the illithid empire.

On one of the False Worlds was a place called the Field of Husks. On the Field of Husks, the corpses of those whose brains had been devoured by the mind flayers were dumped on the ground and turned into compost by the agricultural slaves. Zerthimon was one of these slaves until he found a corpse that had been killed by a steel blade with its brain still intact. The sight of steel causing death rather than the mind powers of his illithid masters helped inspire Zerthimon's thoughts of rebellion.

Its notable that the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon has a lot to say about the origins of the rebellion but nothing to say about the war itself. After Zerthimon joined forces with Gith there's a gap and the next thing we learn is the aftermath of the war, when Zerthimon stood on the Blasted Plains and spoke the Pronouncement of Two Skies saying that henceforth the followers of Zerthimon and those who remained followers of Gith would be separate.