Ofc its staying. As it should. But its going to be changed. They've stated it's not compelling gameplay to be the only source of endgame content (people who don't like raid format forced into it ATM) and they don't think its compelling for anyone, or just a small niche which LFR isn't designed for, to be doing it for weeks and months.

GC tweet: Our current thought is that LFR is a way to see the content and maybe some gear but not a great way to spend weeks or months.

That is rubbish about "seeing the content".
If you saw the entire experience from the view of LFR, then nobody would raid anything higher.
LFR is a small portion of the experience, a small portion of the content, not "the content" but "some content".
It is a different experience, and is different content in every difficulty.

It might not be a great way to spend that time, but the community, your fellow players make LFR a necessity, and ensure that people are stuck there.

Flex does nothing to solve the core problem which people keep refusing to talk about, the organisational requirement where someone can make the rules.
LFD offers exactly the same feature but on a smaller scale, yet I see little complaints in comparison.

You raid normal or flex because it is simply not the same as LFR.
Therefore LFR is not seeing all it has to offer, where only the highest difficulty does that.

Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-12-21 at 07:21 PM.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.

Originally Posted by Reinaerd

T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

LFD offers exactly the same feature but on a smaller scale, yet I see little complaints in comparison.

There are several reasons for this:

1. You're going to run into more trolls in LFR than in LFD. Assume a certain percentage of the population trolls. For the sake of illustrating my point we'll set that number at 4%. With 25 people you're going to average one troll every run. With 5 people you're going to average one troll every four runs. So on average 75% of your dungeon runs will be pleasant. In LFR, however, most of your runs are going to have at least one troll.

2. Dealing with a troll in LFD is much easier than dealing with one in LFR. LFR requires a minimum of 5 people to initiate a VTK. LFD requires just one. Once the vote is initiated most players will buy into it, but for some reason players are too reluctant/lazy to initiate a vote unless things have really gone downhill.

3. Fewer conflicting strategies. This is similar in concept to the first point I made. With fewer people it's less likely that you'll get two players with conflicting strategies. A classic example of failures due to conflicting strategies has cropped up on the Garrosh fight lately. There's a group of players that realized that it's easier in LFR to stack and heal through the desecrated weapon than it is to have everyone running back and forth to avoid it. However, most tanks coming from normal raids are unaware of this strategy and absolutely refuse to buy into it. The result? Half the players park in the melee stack and the other half attempt to run between markers, but with half the raid parked in the desecrate and the tanks running every which way to avoid the desecrate, the whole thing turns into one big clusterfuck. The result? The group wipes. In LFD this is far less likely because you only have to convince one or two people to try a new strategy, as opposed to having to convince 12 or 13 others.

This is partially why I don't think that LFR has worsened the community. It's simply exposed players to more of it and has therefore lowered opinions. The community was always as bad as it is now. Many players simply didn't realize it.

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

I think LFR should probably be removed and let Flexi be the new method of "seeing" content. If you have to make Flexi a little easier, then go ahead.

Then don't run LFR. Blizzard has stated that it's still more popular than Flex, so it would be stupid for them to get rid of it.

Originally Posted by Mokoshne

I also think that you should be only eligable for loot off bosses once a week. You can do flexi/normal/heroic but you can only loot a boss once. i think this would make the game better overall.

What this would do is prevent most of the Flex audience from ever running it. The whole point of Flex is for good players to continue to play with friends and family without affecting their progression. Flex was never intended to be progression raiding. I don't see how this change would "make the game better overall."

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

The whole point of Flex is for good players to continue to play with friends and family without affecting their progression. Flex was never intended to be progression raiding. I don't see how this change would "make the game better overall."

If you want to raid with your friends and family, you can - you just wouldn't be eligable for loot. Heroic raiders wouldn't need the gear anyway since they are doing heroic bosses and would prefer a higher quality level of item.

My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss the Bali 9 Indonesian drug smugglers and their looming execution

If you want to raid with your friends and family, you can - you just wouldn't be eligable for loot. Heroic raiders wouldn't need the gear anyway since they are doing heroic bosses and would prefer a higher quality level of item.

Heroic raiders can offset bad RNG through Flex drops. Plus, they often go into Flex for extra chances at pet drops. Why do you effectively want to penalize good players for helping out their friends? Like you said, most of the time they don't even need the gear so it's not like an extra drop in Flex is improving the game's longevity. There's also the psychological factor of getting something for the time spent, even if it's not anything particularly useful. I just don't see the benefit of depriving players of loot when they opt to run a lower level of content. The reason that Normal and Heroic share a lockout is so that raiders don't feel forced to do both. Like you said, however, flex loot doesn't do heroic raiders much good in most cases, so that doesn't apply. I'm trying to come up with a benefit of having shared loot lockouts between Normal and Flex and I'm just not seeing them.

Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-23 at 06:43 PM.

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

Queue times have gone up since its introduction. That suggests fewer people in the queue. longer queue's = fewer groups are being made=lower completion rate. When you could get into a LFR in 10 minutes then yea, lots of groups and lots of clears. When it takes an hour aside from tuesday? Not many groups being made and even fewer finishing.
.

Hey now, Ronduwil is our great and wise elder. We should all follow his inane advice so that our lives can be fuller and richer and we can stop playing such a silly game.

You're the one who suggested that if you can't play the game well you shouldn't play at all. I was merely pointing out that recreational activities are just that: recreational. I never suggested to anyone that they quit playing any game that they enjoy. I'm sure that many people, raider and non-raider alike, enjoy playing WoW.

Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-23 at 07:43 PM.

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

You're the one who suggested that if you can't play the game well you shouldn't play at all. I was merely pointing out that recreational activities are just that: recreational. I never suggested to anyone that they quit playing any game that they enjoy. I'm sure that many people, raider and non-raider alike, enjoy playing WoW.

You're the one that seems to constantly have issues with people who enjoy taking their entertainment seriously. Also, not speaking for everyone, you come off as very condescending most of the time. As if you have some secret to a great life and you are beneficent enough to share it with us.

You champion people who like to "play casually" and say that they should be able to play how they wish, then in the same breath you try to belittle those of us who enjoy taking the game seriously.

You're the one that seems to constantly have issues with people who enjoy taking their entertainment seriously. Also, not speaking for everyone, you come off as very condescending most of the time. As if you have some secret to a great life and you are beneficent enough to share it with us.

You champion people who like to "play casually" and say that they should be able to play how they wish, then in the same breath you try to belittle those of us who enjoy taking the game seriously.

I'm sorry if I come off that way, but I honestly don't mean to belittle anyone. I take the game far more seriously than most, so I would only be belittling myself. However, by that same token, I'm self-aware enough to realize that I am outside of the norm in that regard. I get really irritated when I see the minority portion of my community berating the majority for not sharing in their zealous pursuit of gaming excellence. If you enjoy heroic raiding, by all means enjoy it. Just don't go calling other players "bad" or "lazy" or "entitled" or any of the other ridiculous labels that are regularly applied to players who would rather treat the game like a game and not like a job.

In MoP Blizzard threw away all forms of end game outside of raiding. Congratulations. Raiders won. But that's not enough for some people. Apparently they have to do away with LFR as well so that casual players have nothing left to do in the game. Somehow this will make the game more successful. This is the point of view that I oppose, but somehow that belittles you. Seriously?

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

Let's knock it off with personal insults and remarks. You can continue to discuss your differences via PM if it's going to be a bunch of "Well, you said this..." or you can leave that out and stick to the basics. #468-#471 have nothing at all to do with Raid Finder. Thanks.

Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-12-23 at 09:33 PM.

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Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of everything is crap. When posting try and be in the 10% once in a while. It makes it better for everyone.

1. You're going to run into more trolls in LFR than in LFD. Assume a certain percentage of the population trolls. For the sake of illustrating my point we'll set that number at 4%. With 25 people you're going to average one troll every run. With 5 people you're going to average one troll every four runs. So on average 75% of your dungeon runs will be pleasant. In LFR, however, most of your runs are going to have at least one troll.

2. Dealing with a troll in LFD is much easier than dealing with one in LFR. LFR requires a minimum of 5 people to initiate a VTK. LFD requires just one. Once the vote is initiated most players will buy into it, but for some reason players are too reluctant/lazy to initiate a vote unless things have really gone downhill.

3. Fewer conflicting strategies. This is similar in concept to the first point I made. With fewer people it's less likely that you'll get two players with conflicting strategies. A classic example of failures due to conflicting strategies has cropped up on the Garrosh fight lately. There's a group of players that realized that it's easier in LFR to stack and heal through the desecrated weapon than it is to have everyone running back and forth to avoid it. However, most tanks coming from normal raids are unaware of this strategy and absolutely refuse to buy into it. The result? Half the players park in the melee stack and the other half attempt to run between markers, but with half the raid parked in the desecrate and the tanks running every which way to avoid the desecrate, the whole thing turns into one big clusterfuck. The result? The group wipes. In LFD this is far less likely because you only have to convince one or two people to try a new strategy, as opposed to having to convince 12 or 13 others.

This is partially why I don't think that LFR has worsened the community. It's simply exposed players to more of it and has therefore lowered opinions. The community was always as bad as it is now. Many players simply didn't realize it.

So the experience is driven by other players in the raid not giving a damn ?
My point remains, the issue is player created.
You just proved my point.

Originally Posted by Mokoshne

I think LFR should probably be removed and let Flexi be the new method of "seeing" content. If you have to make Flexi a little easier, then go ahead.

I also think that you should be only eligable for loot off bosses once a week. You can do flexi/normal/heroic but you can only loot a boss once. i think this would make the game better overall.

Not doing anything to solve the issue.
Flex while accommodating those who might otherwise be stuck in LFR due to time commitments, it still requires the raid leader and other members to be willing.
It still requires those in the raid to give a damn.
Something you don't see very often.

LFR is here to stay because the playerbase made it necessary.
Flex is resolving an entirely different issue altogether.

Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-12-24 at 06:32 AM.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.

Originally Posted by Reinaerd

T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

So the experience is driven by other players in the raid not giving a damn ?
My point remains, the issue is player created.
You just proved my point.

All group experiences are driven by other players' attitudes. Not giving a damn is not the same as not caring enough to devote hours of research to content prior to engaging in it. Contrary to what you're suggesting, players in LFR typically want to play well and beat the encounters. This myth of AFKing your way to loot is just that. The typical LFR player wants to do well, but they want to do so through in-game experience rather than by studying strategies outside of the game. If you don't like that then don't run random content. Form your own groups instead.

Originally Posted by ComputerNerd

Flex while accommodating those who might otherwise be stuck in LFR due to time commitments, it still requires the raid leader and other members to be willing.

You can still AFK your way to loot in Flex. The difference is that it only takes one vote kick (the leader's) to get rid of that player. If you have a good raid leader (and that's not guaranteed if you're running Flex through the other raids browser or through oqueue) then he'll kick the player, but even that's not a guarantee.

Originally Posted by ComputerNerd

It still requires those in the raid to give a damn.
Something you don't see very often.

I'm willing to bet that 90% of the players in LFR are trying their best. Their best just isn't that great because in many cases it's players' first encounter with raid content. I actually see players giving a damn most of the time.

Originally Posted by ComputerNerd

LFR is here to stay because the playerbase made it necessary.

LFR is here to stay because the alternatives to it are designed to keep players engaged for a week or two at most. That was Blizzard's call. Most players were perfectly happy with heroics prior to LFR. Blizzard chose to discard them in favor of raids. I'm still trying to figure out why.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Pancaspe

You need LFR as a gear stepping stone to Flex.

Heck, it's gotten to the point where you can't even run Flex without having done a few normal raids and/or run Flex with your guild. I have a 531 ilevel Holy Paladin and I spent hours listed for Flex in the raid browser with no takers. The one guy I did talk to said they wanted 540+ and apologized for not being able to invite me. I finally got invited to a normal mode raid that was a complete failure because the leader wanted to two-heal Norushen and expected my capeless 531 pally to solo heal with 75% corruption while the other healer took the orb first. Then he accused me of putting out "no healing whatsoever," prompting me to spam the meter indicating that I was still pulling 100K HPS in my crap gear. One other member who claimed to have two-healed the fight many times in heroic leaped to my defense, stating that solo healing that fight was a bitch and that he shouldn't have healers taking orbs if we're going to be two-healing. There are idiots everywhere, not just in LFR.

If not for LFR I would have spent my week parked in the city waiting for someone to advertise or for the raid browser to pop. It must be nice to be able to run Flex Tuesdays and Wednesdays, because apparently that's when most of the good runs happen.

Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-28 at 10:30 AM.

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

Heck, it's gotten to the point where you can't even run Flex without having done a few normal raids and/or run Flex with your guild. I have a 531 ilevel Holy Paladin and I spent hours listed for Flex in the raid browser with no takers. The one guy I did talk to said they wanted 540+ and apologized for not being able to invite me. I finally got invited to a normal mode raid that was a complete failure because the leader wanted to two-heal Norushen and expected my capeless 531 pally to solo heal with 75% corruption while the other healer took the orb first. Then he accused me of putting out "no healing whatsoever," prompting me to spam the meter indicating that I was still pulling 100K HPS in my crap gear. One other member who claimed to have two-healed the fight many times in heroic leaped to my defense, stating that solo healing that fight was a bitch and that he shouldn't have healers taking orbs if we're going to be two-healing. There are idiots everywhere, not just in LFR.

If not for LFR I would have spent my week parked in the city waiting for someone to advertise or for the raid browser to pop. It must be nice to be able to run Flex Tuesdays and Wednesdays, because apparently that's when most of the good runs happen.

It probably because no one actually uses the raid browser. You would have much better luck using OpenRaid or OQueue.

It probably because no one actually uses the raid browser. You would have much better luck using OpenRaid or OQueue.

I've used the raid browser quite a bit for Celestials and Ordos. Flex, I haven't tried; I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work well for that.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

absolutely incorrect. as an experiment I leveled yet another prot pally. He is 510 ilvl and one day old at 90 now. I can easily enter flex at that level.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Heck, it's gotten to the point where you can't even run Flex without having done a few normal raids and/or run Flex with your guild. I have a 531 ilevel Holy Paladin and I spent hours listed for Flex in the raid browser with no takers.

The answer is fairly strait forward, and has been repeated a number of times on this thread. If you are below what is being asked for then form your own, but in the same vent do not expect raiders to join your flex and provide a carry.

Secondly why are you not taking low item level players from your guild and doing flex? I will not look twice at a 530 ilvl player outside of my guild but will OFTEN build a group around the very same crap level type of player if they are in guild and I know them, they show potential, and I want to throw gear their way.