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Prong_Thunder writes "A livejournal post written on October 18th (google cache, scroll down to 'a prayer for dubya') resulted in a visit from the US Secret Service nine days later, as it 'constituted a possible threat to the president'."

She goes on to say that they didn't just stumble upon the page and pay her that visit. One of the people that regularly reads her blog "turned her in". Pretty scary thing to happen, but in other countries it could have turned out much worse. *cough*China*cough*

According to the livejournalist concerned here, her statement of opposition to the current president, including, as it did, a juvenile or immature death-wish upon him, has earned her among other things an FBI file, and a "strong possibility" according to her attorney that she may be placed on the US no-fly list.

That would be a significant penalty imposed without due process, and no matter what other posters here have said, this is also an obvious free speech issue.

I'm not sure what kind of a comfort it is to say that it likely would have turned out even worse in China.

Whatever one might want to pray happen to the president, it's arguably time also for a prayer in memory of some traditional US civil liberties and protections.

Being investigated for threats against another person's life does not violate due process. The FBI keeping a record of the people that have made threats against another person's life doesn't violate due process, either. Having an FBI file doesn't restrict any liberties.

The no-fly list is an entirely different beast. There are some serious problems with a secret no-fly list. But, I don't have any desire to the argument against the no-fly list as some sort of support for an ass-bag who threatens the Pres

There was no threat. It was not only clearly satire, but it was a prayer to God that He kill Bush. Unless the FBI thinks that God exists and that this person was conspiring with Him to kill the President, there was no threat, period.

Unless the FBI thinks that God exists and that this person was conspiring with Him to kill the President, there was no threat, period.

It doesn't matter what the FBI thinks about God, it matters what the person in question believes about God.

Crimes have been known to be committed in the name of God.

I can see why the FBI might take this seriously. I think they just want to cover their rear-ends. If something did happen, they would be in deep trouble if it was known that they knew of a threat previously (kind of like what happened with Sep. 11 incident).

I think they just want to cover their rear-ends. If something did happen, they would be in deep trouble if it was known that they knew of a threat previously (kind of like what happened with Sep. 11 incident).

Maybe the intelligence agencies did not prevent the 9/11 attacks cause the attackers did not post anything on some weblog.

While I think it's clear in this case that the author was being satirical, it's difficult to say where the line should be drawn.

What if I posted the name and address of an abortion doctor on a website with the statement "oh I wish this person would just die"?

Expressing a desire for someone to die could be construed as inciting someone else to actually perform the act. It's a fine line to be sure, since the person doesn't actually say they want someone else to perform the act, or even that they want the p

I can't cite any sources on the 'net (obviously not using the right keywords) but I had a history class which talked about religious armies having "special forces" troops that would go by names of something like "the Hand of God". Essentially striking for God by sneaking into enemy cities and doing damage to put the fear of God in people.

Muslim society probably has a similar concept. So a call for "God" to kill Bush could be construed as a call to action for those forces. (Remember, the CIA swears up an

Assuming "God" is a code-name for some Islamic fundamentalist ninja super-assassin sleeper agent who is supposed to whack Dubya, it defeats the entire point of using a code name to then spend the rest of the message saying "PLEASE KILL THE FUCKING PRESIDENT!!!!".

Ooops, gotta go. I was gonna write more, but I hear somebody knocking at the door.

There were no charges, either. Last time I checked, anyone who wants to do so is perfectly free to knock on your door and ask you any damned questions they want to ask. And, the last time I checked, you have the legal right to someone at the door to go fuck themselves if you don't want to answer their questions.

Whle I would seriously take this with a grain of salt considering the source, a bit of research on this would be fairly easy. Pending the verification of the source, the government takes prayer seriously:

IRS Prohibits Churches from Praying for the Re-Election of President George Bush

WASHINGTON, October 28, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Internal Revenue Service says churches praying for God to grant President Bush four more years as President, during their church services, is a violation of the federal t

Every year a new young person learns that making any statement about the president and death gets him/her a visit from the secret service. Actually, from the couple instances I know, the penalty was more severe (they restricted the person's travel, and required them to notify the SS of any interstate travel) but I guess now it looks like they aren't coming down so hard, which is surprising given the current state of things. Yet still, the comment had the wrong idea-- the last thing you'd want to do is mar

No, the author claims that the Secret Service (or the FBI, I don't think the author knows the difference) claims that they "recieved a report."

The author has absolutely no idea how the Secret Service or the FBI came upon her journal, except that they claim that someone "recieved a report." She says that the agents "as much as told [her]" that it was reported by a concerned citizen, but they did emphatically not actually tell her any such a thing. She's just assuming that she knows what happened.

And how do you read this as an incitement? Would it still be incitement, if we substituted Easter Bunny for God? Here, let's try it:

Dear Easter Bunny:

Wassup? How's it hanging? Yeah, I know it's been a long time since we talked. This probably stems from my belief that you do not exist. Anyway, the reason why I'm calling you is because last night, President Bush said that he could feel it every time we prayed for him, and since he apparently doesn't listen to anyone but you, Easter Bunny, I thought you migh

I read about this, but hadn't seen the post. To be honest, it's strong, but I'd stop way short of calling it investigation-worthy, or even worth a trip to the kid's house. (But, the Secret Service investigates all threats made against the President, so that one's out of my jurisdiction.)

If someone said this at a public event, or on the radio, or written it in a newspaper:

Please kill George Bush. I hate him so much.. I want terrible things to happen to him.. And maybe you could have some media people there when the police find the body, so they can take pictures and stuff.. Please, please, please kill Dubya. And Dick Cheney. And everyone else in the Bush Administration."

He would be having a much, much worse night than a visit from a couple of guys in unmarked cars. I see this is marked under "Politics" not YRO, which makes it sound like a free-speech issue. It is, but it's not like Bush just started enforcing that when he took office OMGWTF LUONG LIVE TEH AMERICA!!!. It has, and always was, a felony to threaten the life of the President. Actually, it has been, and always was, a felony to threaten anybody's life; but not everybody has as diligent a private police force as the Service.

This kid was trolling, plain and simple: free speech, on the internet or anywhere else, can't be taken for granted, though I'd like to think we should expect it to be. You're behind a keyboard, so it's easy to say things without realizing you have a world-sized audience. This is one of the reasons I don't have a blog; frankly, I have a Montana-sized ego, so people know I have a knack for expressing my opinion. But I'd rather not have a google-cached word-for-word dossier of my views.

The only way, I believe, that this would have come to the attention of the Secret Service is if someone submitted it to them. And I respect their response -- they apologized and left.

"the non-metrical omission of letters or words whose absence does not impede the reader's ability to understand the expression. For example, the last line in the following leaves the lexical verb understood: Hugh, he could fancy No one but Nancy, And Sally got antsy Just thinking of Chauncy, But Nancy liked Drew And Chauncy did too. (I.L.)"

That girl wasn't too bright to get herself into trouble. If you read the original post (also mirrored here in PDF format) she made threatening statements about the President. The Secret Service, doing it's job of protecting the President, investigated, found nothing, and went about their way.

Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

That said, this has nothing to do with the First Amendment and free speech, because while there are protections of free speech, it is well established that there are things you cannot say. These are commonly summed up as the 'yelling FIRE in a theater' statements. This also does not apply to anything Patriot-act related. It's a simple Secret Service investigation of a percieved threat. End of story.

Hopefully she has now learned that publishing something on the internet (and that's what LJ is) is not much different from standing on a street corner and shoting something, except with an eternal echo.

Sorry, how does a prayer that something happens constitute a threat? No where in that post did she say she was going to do it or encouraging anyone else to do it. (Unless you count God) She was merely expressing a hope that it does. I don't share her opinion - I don't think Shrub is an evil person - just simple minded and easily manipulated - which is reason enough to get him the hell out of office.

I agree, I don't think it was much of a threat, but it really is the Secret Service's job to investigate such things. I also don't think that the Secret Service feels she is a threat either, anymore, after they took a look and investigated things. After all, that's all they did...

I think it comes down to not wanting anything to fall through the cracks. What if someone really was to want to injure the President and was really quiet about it, but occasionally let things slip and made ranting (such as the aforementioned) posts online? If something happened, the Secret Service would have it's head on a plate for having had a lead and not investigating at all.

They can't use common sense. They must evalute every sentance with "the president" preceeded by "kill". If you ask god to do it, then you could concievably have a person with whom you communicate under the moniker "god".

It's simply illegal to make such statments even if they are non-sensical. Can you imagine something happening after such a threat was discarded. "Oops sorry, we didn't think she was serious".

Come on now, I don't feel for her one bit. I don't much like the man as president but I'm su

She requested the president to die, that is a threat plain and simple. It's their damn job to check into it, especially when someone specifically complained about it, and they'd do it regardless of who was president.

How is it a threat? What is she doing by wishing death upon the President that is, in any way, increasing the chance that the President will die?

If it doesn't increase, and isn't intended to increase, the chances of the President dying, it certainly isn't a threat by any stretch of the imagination. It's just a juvenile, foul mouthed, pointless barrage of hate.

No, it's a freedom of religion issue. She prayed that God do something for her.

You know you live in a police state when you are "Shaken Down" by the Praetorian Guards for praying.

I'll say this about The President:We deserve what we got. The republican party and the democratic party just feed us their little prepackaged presidential candidates and we blithingly "choose" between the two most corrupt and ass-kissing people in the country.

As The Governor of California said: "Girlie-men." (taken out of contex

A) The "Hitman" here is "God". There are no legal proscriptions whatsoever about god killing someone. Hence it wouldn't actually be murder (murder is by definition illegal killing - as long as its legal it can't be murder). If this were not the case then the FBI shpould be looking for god as he has several billion suspicous deaths to answer for.

B) No law can possibly apply as any law that applied to a request made to god would be to make a law 'respecting an establi

I read the Google cache of her comment and cannot see how it was "threatening". Threatening, in general, doesn't mean to "wish God would kill someone", it generally means to imply a threat exists or to create one. If she was organizing the killing of our beloved leader, or even encouraging others to do so on her behalf, then that would be something, but...

...but just asking God to do it is stretching things. It's clearly not serious, it's clearly not an attempt to kill anyone, and it certainly doesn't fit into anything of the quoted US code: It isn't a document containing a threat to take the life of (...) upon the President of the United States (...) or (...) otherwise (is making) any such threat against the President"

Be reasonable, please. Don't stretch definitions to this kind of degree.

I realise, incidentally, that I may simply not understand your point of view because I'm an atheist. If you're a God-fearing Christian, and seriously believe that God, on receipt of a message from a foul-mouthed blogger, would say "Well, goodness. I better do as she asked and get rid of this Bush fellow", then, obviously, we're at odds, though such a view would seem wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin understanding someone who'd think that way.

IIRC, there was a minor fracas recently (in the last twelve years or so) when the secret service visited a woman who was using witchcraft to wish the President dead. I'm really quite fuzzy on the details; it may well have been early in Clinton's terms.

Considering I was living in South Florida at the time, it may have been a Santeria practitioner. Judges and local officials occasionally wake up to find chicken feet and blood on their doorstep, and the news periodically trots out a story about it.

I read the Google cache of her comment and cannot see how it was "threatening".

It wasn't the content that got her into trouble, it was the fact that someone turned her in.

Furthermore, the Secret Service must investigate all threats on the president's life no matter how ridiculous they seem to be. If I tell the Secret Service that you implied to me that you were going to do something to the president, I guarantee the Secret Service would contact you. They take all threats very seriously.

You all are missing the point. Yes, a wish for the death of the president *is* a threat. If she wants the president to die, then she may help someone else kill the president or kill the president herself.

If I wanted you to die, wouldn't you want to know more about me?

I can't even believe there are people in this country that want to see the president dead. I'm a staunch Republican, and I never wanted to see Clinton dead. Impeached, yes. Dead? No. At least not without a fair trial before a jury.

So you're saying that anybody who wants to threaten somebody's life can simply say: "please, God, kill my enemy" instead of "I will kill my enemy", and it's suddenly not a threat? If somebody posted such a "prayer" about you on the internet, would you feel completely safe? What if it was by a person who always happened to "bump into" you everywhere you went?

This person was simply investigated. She wasn't arrested, thrown in jail, beaten, etc. Putting her on a no-fly list isn't going to happen, that's just

If you put it on the internet any one can see it, don't say in your blog what you would not say in a crowed public venue. When you put on your blog (or slashdot comments or what ever) expect every one can read, your friends, your enimeys, the goverment, a foreign goverment, people you don't know. So the secreat service reads liver journal, big deal, this is not a invastion of priviace, they person put it there for the world to see, the world saw it.

I wonder. If it's not legal to pray for someone's death, as it constitutes a threat against them, then would it be legal for me to make a voodoo doll of them? I mean, would you get busted by the secret service if you had a 'W voodoo doll that you stuck pins into? The quote from the chick is that he can 'feel it every time you pray for him.' Well, how about every time they twist the doll's head around in circles?

I'd rather have a Kerry doll, though. Then I'd probably try to pin the skin around his eyes up, they're so damn droopy. He reminds me of a basset hound. Then again, his IQ is around the same.

Remember: Noone ever told her it was illegal. The Secret Service had to investigate it because someone in the FBI thought (after a tip off from a fellow LJer) that this might be a threat. They checked that, found that it's not a threat and left. No legal humble-jumble involved.

Disclaimer: I'm not from the USA and strongly dislike the current way of politics there but can still understand that reaction by an agency that only exists to protect the president (and vice-president, and president-elected and what

agency that only exists to protect the president (and vice-president, and president-elected and what-not).

Just so you know, the Secret Service does more than just protect the President. They are also responsible for investigating counterfeiting, forgery, and various other crimes.

As for the issue at hand, one of my college profs was ex-Secret Service and he described stuff like this happening all the time. Write something like that about the Pres and get a visit. If you're not a threat, as apparantly

Except, most kids know not to post shit on the internet about killing the president. Every few years, you'll year about some kid emailing the president or posting on some forum about how he is going to do that act- and then you heaer about the SS showing up very quickly to question him. Most people have the sense to not have "kill" and "president" in the same sentence- I am a bit scared that I'm doing it myself right now...

That doesn't sound statistically possible./ There are a limited number of Secret Service agents.

It depends on how you look at it. What I was trying to say is that Secret Service Agents knock on doors quite often talking to folks about threats against the Pres. I wan't trying to say that every threat gets a visit;-)

Er, of course she got scared. Anyone should be a bit scared if the Secret Service shows up on your doorstep. But did you bother to read what she actually wrote about it though? Here, I'll quote some of it for you:

After about ten minutes of talking to me and my family, they quickly came to the conclusion that I was not a threat to national security (mostly because we are the least threatening people in the entire world) and told me that they would not recommend that any further action be taken with my c

>Obviously, I cannot link to the original LJ post that I made, because I have removed it from my LJ to protect myself and those who commented in that thread from receiving any further visits from the FBI.

She did remove it. She was intimidated to remove something she had written in a public forum. Without due process.

What's wrong with that? Dude, pick up "The Decline and Fall of the Third Reich". You'll see.

She did remove it. She was intimidated to remove something she had written in a public forum. Without due process.

No no no, you see, intimidation implies coersion. Intimidation implies threats. Intimidation implies nastiness and brutality. From every indication on her site, the visit she received was, if not cordial, very businesslike. If you disagree with the law that says that it's illegal to make death threats against the president, then that could be discussed in some other forum. The issue at

If you read his journal he never once said he was going to kill the president. He merely said he was hopeful that the president would die. These are completely different things. Is it a crime to wish death on someone? Or is it perhaps that he was contracting God to kill Bush that made it illegal?

It was obvious to me that this was meant as a joke. I'm suprised it wasn't taken that way by the authorities. I mean really, shouldn't they be looking for real threats (like terrorists)?

I mean really, shouldn't they be looking for real threats (like terrorists)?

The Secret Service primarily exists to keep the President and other public figures from getting killed/hurt. After Kenedy they really started taking this seriously. Someone I know was once pissed when he got pulled over by a cop and at one point said "I'm going to kill the president" Quote Unquote. The cop legally had to report him to the secret service even though he had no intention of killing the president at the time. And

On a side not, anyone that says that it is OK to take out any president cause you don't agree with his views/policy/action? Well, that aint Democracy its assanation politics.

Bush wasn't democratically elected. By the way, I don't think it is okay to kill Bush. That doesn't mean the entire world wouldn't be better off if he were gone. I for one strongly oppose the assassination of Bush.

True. However, "obvious" is not always the driving factor in government. I'm not just randomly bashing the system, but pointing out that it has regulations in place that bring certain responsibilities. Court records are full of cases where it was "obvious" that someone was guilty, but the physical evidence didn't satisfy the requirements of the system. It can seem like a waste at times, but it's all part of requiring that the powers that be "make su

I got a call from the secret service asking me to come in and answer some questions. They found the post using Dejanews, and wanted to know what the secret code was. I told them it was a program. They said they would have their experts look at it. At the time, it was legally questionable to post that code to usenet due to ITAR, so I was polite when questioned, despite having to explain the difference between a web page and a usenet post, among other things.

In retrospect, I'm shocked I actually said this, but when they called me, I actually asked them, "Where did you get this number?" (The number was unlisted.) Their response, "We are the secret service."

How do they know if she is serious or not. If she was a threat and something happened, then the Secret Service would be blasted for not doing more. A visit is a non-issue. The Secret Service had better be doing everything they can to protect our president, including reading blogs. Just hope they have some software to scan it all for them.

And why is this in politics? Obviously her post was politically motivated, but the Secret Service is not acting based on politics.

True, but what if she was a pshyco, and this was a clue. To us, we read it and it is obvious that she is not serious. But if it were our job to step in front of a bullet for the president, it is worth investigating any possible trigger pullers.

The cost of investigating is much less than the cost of not, even given the context of her message.

And it's not like she was roughed up, spent any time in jail, or was otherwise intimidated. She made a threat that, if she were a psycho, could have been an indication of actions to come. They spent 10 minutes ascertaining that she's not a psycho, and that should be the end of it.

If, as others have speculated, she ends up on a "no fly" list, then there's more to discuss. But that is PURE SPECULATION at this point.

This is a surprise to anyone? The US SS is _required_
to investigate possible threats to The President. Do you
think they've become more lax after 9/11??? You can be sure
they've tightened their procedures quite a bit.

I suspect
Charlie Brooker -Screen Burn- from the UK Guardian (original
expired from the Google cache) is going to get a visit too.
Plus be on the watch-lists for an indeterminate time. Fool --
does he expect policemen to have a sense of humor?

Wassup? How's it hanging? Yeah, I know it's been a long time since we talked. This probably stems from my belief that you do not exist. Anyway, the reason why I'm calling you is because last night, President Bush said that he could feel it every time we prayed for him, and since he apparently doesn't listen to anyone but you, Lord, I thought you might pass this along to him.

Please kill George Bush. I hate him so much. I think he is a giant dick and I want terrible things to happen to him. I'm not really big on the specifics of how he dies, but if you could at least arrange it so that the authorities find his dead body on top of an underage black male prostitute surrounded by a mountain of cocaine and child pornography, that would really be super-awesome. And maybe you could have some media people there when the police find the body, so they can take pictures and stuff. That'd be fucking GREAT. Am I allowed to say "fuck" in a prayer? Shit, I just said it again. Ah, well.

Anyway, that's my prayer, Lord. Please, please, please kill Dubya. And Dick Cheney. And everyone else in the Bush Administration. Maybe they can all commit mass suicide together or something. I don't know. You're the one with all the ideas. You come up with something. I need more coffee.

President Bush is allowed to stay in a classroom for 7 minutes after hearing of the 2nd plane hitting the WTC. His trip to the school is pre-publicized (hence his location is not secret by any means). The secret service should have politly asked to speak to the president and then run his ass out of there the minute he was out of sight of the children. On the trip in the limo to Air Force One, a group of fighters should have been called up from one of the air force bases in florida and been above the plane before it took off. But this did not happen as fighters didn't meet up with the plane until it's next stop (can't remember the base he landed at briefly).

The secret service blew it big time and failed to protect the president and no one has said a word.

But then some kid says "I pray the president dies" and the secret service considers this a threat. What a bunch of fucking morons. Half the world wants this guy dead. Hell, I want the guy dead (He's put this country in more danger than it's been since the cold war by invading a sovereign nation that held *zero* threat to us and he is responsible for the needless death of over a thousand service american man and woman and well over a fifty thousand iraqi civilians). Is the secret service going to investigate *all* of us? Fucking morons!

You make a good point, and to avoid the Secret Service a wasted trip - I in no way intend to hurt the president of the united states. Except verbally (I do reserve the right to call him a fucktard any time I want).

The joke is that we all know the dude's going to lose this election. We just have to wait 5 more days and then he becomes just another "1 termer" who couldn't hack it as president (just like his papa). The worst thing that could happen now is

Lets change the law. Instead of having the secret service to protect politicians, lets instead ban politicians from being protected by any government employee. Also, ban them from hiring private bodyguards, and when they travel require them to walk, bicycle, take the public subway/bus/train, or fly "coach".

It's a lot easier to have casual contempt for Joe Public if you can flip the bird at him from behind tinted bulletproof glass.

She specifically asks for something bad to happen to George Bush. Not just a "I wish he was dead, so I wouldn't have to deal with his shit anymore." But in fact a full blown, "God please kill George Bush." Followed by other self-described snarky comments advocating his death.

I think it looks like more of a consistency thing. She was consistently asking for someone to kill George Bush, which could technically incite someone to violence, which might be construed as a threat. (IANAL)

And while I think most people have made jokes about some president or other important official, friend, neighbor, etc dying, being assasinated, etc for the greater good. I think most people rarely couch it in terms of doing or asking someone to do it.

Perhaps the best speculative difference.

"I wish they were dead."

"God, please kill George Bush."

It's tough to say if I think it is a good/bad thing that the Secret Service checked up on this. Hopefully they also read the rest of her livejournal first. Hell that may have been why they *did* check up on her. If the rest of her livejournal had been a total peacenik LJ, they may have just gone on their way. Yet some of the other posts supported at least asking questions of whether or not she is truly a violent individual.

Wake up call. Violent ranting on the internet can be completely misconstured (much like email). Please confine all future rants to actual conversations with known audiences, so that when you make outrageous statements you audience knows you well enough to not turn you into the Secret Service.

So are we supposed to worry about the Secret Service checking up on all of us now?

People reading this story would think differently. The secret service was just doing their job. They felt they had a possible situation, checked it out, and stopped pursuing it when they realized there was no threat.

Now if this guy had been a radical Muslim leader saying that he wished Allah would kill Bush, then it'd be a different story. People would want to hang that guy. This radical leader could use the same type of website to get his message across.

So the Secret Service doesn't know which case this is. I feel they acted accordingly. I think this guy was just a bit shaken up since he seems to be a non-confrontational guy and was confronted by the Secret Service.

I feel bad for the guy since his intentions weren't violent, but there are ways of getting your point across. Saying god should kill Bush isn't one of them.

I, a friend of Schezar, hereby threaten to take the life of the president of the united states. I make this threat for the sole purpose of getting the secret service to come to my door. I think it would be great fun to talk to them, possibly go to court and learn some secrets. I think it would be especially awesome if they use any provisions of the Patriot act in their visit. That way when I go to court I can be the guy who challenges their constitutionality. Also, it would be great fun and bring an element

RTOP people... it states clearly that the Secret Service said that the page was reported to them by someone. They did not stumble across it, nor is there some bureaucrat reading through LJ in an official capacity.

One bit of confusion I have about the article... the author refers, seemingly interchangeably, to 'Secret Service' (part of the Treasury Department) and 'FBI' (part of the Department of Justice). Which was it that showed up?

Is Pat Robertson a real christian?? if he was he would know that Christ commanded us to pray for our enimeies ( also to love them ). I would not say that pro abortionist jugeds are our enimens (well not yet, but) So a real Christians prayer would be more like this "Lord please help lead the justes to wisdom, and bring them to repentence and revours the rulling they made on the sinful act of abortion. Thought Jesus Christ that lives and rains with you and the Holy Ghost ever one God now and forever. Amen"

So... 'Kill the president' is bad, but "Kill the President" By The Offspring, is okay?

Yes. I've never heard of "The Offspring" but either they're high-profile or rich, and so the rules are different. I remember a Republican congressmen making a comment like "Clinton better watch his back" (or something like that) and you know nothing came of that either. Please don't act surprised.