@Tazgoth - SimC will fail hard for challenge modes, becuase it can't simulate very well the aspect that drives destro's performance: trash and ember generation that comes with AoE packs or shadowburn executes.

Mastery will be your best secondary, becuase you're going to putting so much of your damage into ember consumers when you take the entirety of an instance into account.

What do you think about Haste vs Crit?

Regardless of the trash/ember generation that comes from shadowburn and how we can game the system for a lot of damage from embers (havoc, bringing 4embers into a boss, etc), I still don't see why haste would have that value.

EDIT @Tazgoth:
IDK, but it looks like that you are very close to a haste breakpoint (for Immolate?) with your current gear downscaled. That way any further point is very weak compared to crit and mastery. Also this is just a wild guess.

---

Originally Posted by Brusalk

I dunno if I'd include boss tips/tricks in the guide. The purpose of the guide is to help people play Destro in a PvE setting and understand all of the basics and components such that they'd be able to make an informed decision on their own. (Hence, for example, the gem section being "How you could do this" rather than "Here's a list of what to use") A boss tips/tricks doesn't really fit in the context of that so I'd be likely not to include it.

That sounds reasonable, I understand.

Originally Posted by Brusalk

THAT SAID! Feel free to do so and post it here or a thread or whatever. I'm sure many people (myself included) would like to look at something like that.

I would also be happy for some furhter optimizations to my playstile, so here's my list.
Although I hope it is decent, I apollogize for my english in advance .

Keep in mind that everything I wrote is from a 10men PoV and propably subject to change with other raids tacitcs. So it might or might not be reasonable for everyone.
I also included the first bosses, even though I think it is not very interesting until Malkorok.
If I was unsure about something or felt that some comment was necessary, I added it in <<>>

Any further additions are highly appreciated!
EDIT: Everything is hc only, of course. I don't think any tips are necessary for nhc...

Demonic Gateway helps the raid reaching their spot to kill the adds faster. Keep in mind that the gateway tends to despawn if its set to close to the center ring <<not sure if this is fixed now, I don't use it anymore>>

Skill Shadowfury to stun adds on their way to the center

(Sidenote: first wave of adds make this almost the only encounter where you COULD use your infernal without being completely wasted )

The Fallen Protectors

Keep up Rain of Fire to build up embers

You can either havoc CBs for DPS or ember generators to maximize single target DPS. The latter is much better if you are progressing of course

You can use your Demonic Circle to get through the Blind Hatred. Be careful, as using Demonic Gateway for this task will sometimes give you a tick of Blind Hatred

Sha of Pride

Set your Demonic Circle at your raids gathering position to minimize moving time if you got the Gift of the Titans

Try to havoc SBs from both the Reflections and the Manifestation of Pride

Galakras

Try to havoc SBs between adds. You should generally try to use SB as much as possible on this fight

You can use Demonic Circle to switch faster if you have to stack Flames of Galakrond on the other camp

Iron Juggernaut

If your tanks need help, you can blow up mines. Depending on your gear it will be enough if you have full hp and a maximized Soul Leech shield or you have to use a cooldown like Demonic Sacrifice<<don't know if this is possible in 25men, too?>>. You can avoid all bomb damage if you teleport out as you are jumping on them.

Kor'kron Dark Shamans

With sacrificed demon and Sacrifical Pact you can completely ignore the Iron Prison if you time it well. Generaly by using Sacrifical Pact at about 18sec left, you will always have it ready for the next Iron Prison. Keep in mind that all AE damage will reduce the absorb in the meantime

<<We are tanking the bosses separated. Any further tips for the other tactic?>>

General Nazgrim

Try to havoc from adds to boss as much as possible. But be aware, that Havoc damage WILL give him rage during Defensive Stance

If your healers have problems, you could play with Grimoire of Supremacy and Soul Link for maximum damage reduction combined with some aditional selfheal. But generaly Grimoire of Sacrifice will be better for DPS. That said, your Pet will not generate Rage during Defensive Stance. So it performes quite well, too.

Malkorok

You can use Demonic Circle to get down as fast as possible after an Living Corruption kicked you up. Keep in mind not to stand on your circle, as you will stack Essence of Y'Shaarj on it. Also try to stand some yds away from it to avoid getting Languish debuff from the add after teleporting down

You can use defensive CDs to collect the Essences during the intermission phases if your healers have problems keeping the raid up

Your Imp can be used to dispell Displaced Energy. Be careful that no one is within 8yds, as you will most likely kill them otherwise

Spoils of Pandaria

You can solo the Unstable Sparks if NO ONE(!) else is making damage on them. Cast a CB followed by a SB and the spark should be dead with you staying ember neutral. Be aware that this becomes impossible with better gear, as you will oneshot the sparks <<tried it last week ^^>>

SB is your best friend during this encounter. SB everything. all. the. time.

Thok the Bloodthirsty

Use Grimoire of Supremacy and a Fel Imp to help dispelling during phase 2 and the second intermission. Additionally you can use Cauterize Master for a very (most times useless) small self heal - maybe sometimes it will save your ass if no healers are in range

Glyph of Unending Resolve will give you a 2min CD that makes you immune to interrupts. You can use this in P1 and then again in P2 to bomb the Bats

Demonic Gateway will ease up the intermissions depending on your raids kiting tactics. Be aware that your gateway will despawn if you move to far away from one of the portals. So try to avoid kiting Thok (he will most likely not choose you if you are in melee range)

Glyph of Havoc is very strong on this fight if you use it to spread more than 3 SBs from dying bats. You can use it again in P3 to build up more embers by spreading generators to the Yeti if he is in range.

If you can't spread more than 3 SBs from the bats, it is better not to glyph Havoc and use it on the Jailers, too

Siegecrafter Blackfuse<<in my raid I'm on the conveyor belt so I do not have many things for the main plattform. Also I think that there are completely different tactics here, which is why I don't have many general tips>>

You can use a Demonic Gateway to shorten the way of the assembly line teams to mines (if you follow a tactic that involves killing mines). But keep in mind that it will despawn if you move away to far (=Conveyor Belt e.g.)

Skill Shadowfury for an AE stun on the mines (if your raid has difficulties with them and you are an engineer (best profession atm), you can use a EMP Generator for a second AE stun)

Your Demonic Circle will make it quite fast and easy to teleport down from the Conveyor Belt if you have to be up there in your raid

Paragons of the Klaxxi<<again many things depend on the raids tactic>>

Accoring to the fact that this is a fight with high movement, Kil'jaeden's Cunning is superior here <<at least thats my opinion - then again I always use it because I'm kind of a noob and I LOVE it :P>>

You can use Shadowfury as well as Howl of Terror to CC Amber Parasites resulting in less raid damage. Your healers will love you!

Keep up Rain of Fire to maximize ember generation

Havocing ember generators will also maximize your single target DPS here (AE is padding on this encounter. You don't want to do this during progress)

Depending on your gear you can intercept Hisek the Swarmkeepers Aim either by skilling Grimoire of Supremacy along with Soul Link or Grimoire of Sacrifice along with Sacrificial Pact. If you sac, you can use your Voild Walkers Shadow Bulwark as an additional defensive CD. It is quite powerful, don't forget it!

Don't forget that you can damage your own Kunchong if you are Mezermized and skilled Kil'jaeden's Cunning

Garrosh Hellscream<<I'm curerntly progressing him in P3 (we also play some weird things like bombing the P1 adds to death (so much dps... <3)) so some tips from people who already downed him would be appreciated. Also the tactics vastly differ between 10 and 25men afaik>>

Run Felhunter, either with Grimoire of Sacrifice or Grimoire of Supremacy(=Observer) for an additional interrupt. Be aware that choosing Observer gives you an interrupt not on GCD

If your raid kills the adds in P1 try to havoc SB to the boss. Also try doing this from any weapon you potentially kill as well as in P2 with the adds from empowered whirls

You can ease up the ways for the guy killing the Siege Engineers with your Demonic Gateway. But keep in mind that it tends to despawn if you are to far away from one of the portals

Try to get into the first intermission with full embers to AE down a pack as fast as possible. You will be able to keep up AE with Rain of Fire and full embers. If you are assigned to one of the back room groups, you can also generate enough embers by RoFing the packs on your way back. Also Shadowfury is a strong AE stun/interrupt in intermission 1

(10men) You should be able to prohibit your add running away during an empowered whirl by keeping up Rain of Fire and using Conflagrate on it as soon as it spawnsConflagrate on it as soon as it spawns

(25men) Apply Rain of Fire on the empowered whirl adds, kited by you offtank, if the run past

Your AE is very strong in intermission 2. Depending on aggro you should or should not wait with AE until you reach the upper plattform. If you pull aggro, remember Soulshatter!

Generally Twilight Ward is very strong on this encounter as almost every damage you will take is shadow damage and it absorbs a decent amount with good gear (150k++)

---EDIT: updated with the feedback from Grizelda and rijn dael. Thanks a lot!

Last edited by Melian; 2014-01-29 at 10:24 PM.
Reason: corrected some spelling mistakes and added the part to Tazgoth

EDIT @Tazgoth:
IDK, but it looks like that you are very close to a haste breakpoint (for Immolate?) with your current gear downscaled. That way any further point is very weak compared to crit and mastery. Also this is just a wild guess.

Could be that I'm sitting very close to the 2021 haste BP for Immolate. I would check, but I'm at work right now. Even with that under consideration, for haste to be roughly 1/20th of the value of Crit/Mastery? Find that hard to believe.

Could be that I'm sitting very close to the 2021 haste BP for Immolate. I would check, but I'm at work right now. Even with that under consideration, for haste to be roughly 1/20th of the value of Crit/Mastery? Find that hard to believe.

It is hard to believe. Back when we were at that gear level, haste was higher in value than crit due largely to RoF ember generation and scaling with haste. Seeing as those have been changed since then such that RoF is not used single target, I'd guess that on single target in CM gear level, they are roughly equal.

Again though, when you are doing lots of trash packs and RoF can hit more than one target, I strongly suspect haste will pull ahead.

In short, for challenge modes, I'd Gem Int (which I expect is more than twice as good as mastery at that level), hit cap, and reforge the rest mastery > haste > crit.

You should sac your Felhunter to have the possiblity to kick mind controlled targets

Try to get into the first intermission with full embers to AE down a pack as fast as possible. You will be able to keep up AE with Rain of Fire and full embers. Also Shadowfury is a strong AE stun/interrupt in intermission 1.

You should be able to prohibit your add running away during an empowered whirl by keeping up Rain of Fire and using Conflagrate on it as soon as it spawns

Your AE is very strong in intermission 2. If you pull aggro, remember Soulshatter<<you almost never need this with todays tank aggro, so I feel that some people forget that they even have it >>

I run observer, because I don't want to stop casting to interrupt - it doesn't negatively impact my dps, or at least I am typically 25-35m higher on *garrosh* damage than the other locks in my raid.

For intermission #1, if you are assigned to the back rooms, you can drop RoF on the packs you run past, giving you full embers by the time you are at the back packs - meaning you can burn everything in p1, and still be fine in intermission #1.

We kite these adds via a monk, other than dropping RoF on them for free embers as they run by, I ignore, but I guess our strategy is different here.

I (kjc) fnb incin my way to the top, often pulling a few - considering you have infinite embers while fnb'ing that many, I just blood tap as required till the dk's deathgrip - I haven't ever died to the adds, but other squishies have, and they are next on threat if I were to shatter :P

I was wondering a couple of things since I believe I am under performing as destro:

*Note: I am still wearing a Wooshalay's final choice, but i do have a HM PBoI, gotta love 10 man's. I am currently full mastery>haste>crit and whenever I am not needed for dispels I go with Sacrifice

1) reading the guide is supremacy really that far ahead of sacrifice even in 565+ gear for single target and 2 target cleave?
2) how many CB's are ppl getting off in their opener during DS? I am pretty much just getting three
3) has the opener changed at all? I am seeing logs of destro locks starting with a 1 million burst on fights where they cant possibly be starting with full embers.
I do the following; pot> immo > curse > conflagx2 > DS/racials > Incinx4 > CB for as many embers that you have at that point?

3) has the opener changed at all? I am seeing logs of destro locks starting with a 1 million burst on fights where they cant possibly be starting with full embers.
I do the following; pot> immo > curse > conflagx2 > DS/racials > Incinx4 > CB for as many embers that you have at that point?

I personally use 3 Backdraft charges on first CB. This leaves me enough time to refresh Immo with full proc/prepot and get the first two CB's out during the 5 second 4p proc. I don't get a fancy 20% haste racial

KTT Trinket and GoSac are also a big contributor. A Multi Strike proc on a 3M CB goes a long way.

I was wondering a couple of things since I believe I am under performing as destro:

*Note: I am still wearing a Wooshalay's final choice, but i do have a HM PBoI, gotta love 10 man's. I am currently full mastery>haste>crit and whenever I am not needed for dispels I go with Sacrifice

1) reading the guide is supremacy really that far ahead of sacrifice even in 565+ gear for single target and 2 target cleave?
2) how many CB's are ppl getting off in their opener during DS? I am pretty much just getting three
3) has the opener changed at all? I am seeing logs of destro locks starting with a 1 million burst on fights where they cant possibly be starting with full embers.
I do the following; pot> immo > curse > conflagx2 > DS/racials > Incinx4 > CB for as many embers that you have at that point?

Thanks!

1) Not really. That part of the guide is outdated because I'd gotten so busy that I couldn't spend the time required to make the update as high-quality and correct as I wanted it tobe, and at this point there's not much reason since the prepatch should be coming soon-ish hopefully.

2) 2-3 unless I have full embers for whatever reason

3) I'm still using that method (sometimes with doomguard) and I can get up to 1 mil burst. PBoI + KTT/BBoY w/ Skull Banner means like 3-mil Chaos Bolts.

1) Not really. That part of the guide is outdated because I'd gotten so busy that I couldn't spend the time required to make the update as high-quality and correct as I wanted it tobe, and at this point there's not much reason since the prepatch should be coming soon-ish hopefully.

2) 2-3 unless I have full embers for whatever reason

3) I'm still using that method (sometimes with doomguard) and I can get up to 1 mil burst. PBoI + KTT/BBoY w/ Skull Banner means like 3-mil Chaos Bolts.

Ya I figured that missing skull banner and not having double SoO trinkets is really killing my opening. Thanks Brusalk!

3) I'm still using that method (sometimes with doomguard) and I can get up to 1 mil burst. PBoI + KTT/BBoY w/ Skull Banner means like 3-mil Chaos Bolts.

I've actually seen 3.9MM on the direct hit (i.e. not including the sacrifice DOT) when using a hc warforged BBoY. When you consider that bloodlust is often popped on pull, 1MM burst isn't even really the top end of what's possible when stars align.

The basic change here is that I cast my first immolate after I apply CoE and pop CDs. It's not optimal in that I loose something <1sec from not casting immolate during the travel time of the first incinerate, but this way I stagger the time point when my trinkets proc a bit and I feel that I recover it in faster ember gen due to buffed immolate. What I gain (I feel) is smoother ember generation for the opener allowing a guaranteed 2 fully buffed CB and good chances for a 3rd (KTT will have faded for the 3rd CB but would till have DS/pot/PBoI).

I don't have any hard facts or simulations to back this up, its just an intuition that I've been trying out and it seems to work out OK.

So, I'm trying to maximize my destro locks DPS, and I feel like the guides that are out there give conflicting information. I'm low geared - 540. My question is, when does it become better (or has it always been) to gem for pure mastery instead of intel (or orange gems with both mastery + intel)?

The answer will depend somewhat on your specific gear. I would think the changeover point is somewhere around 540 if not slightly sooner. You can test this in simC very easily by editing the "simulate" import wall of text page. Look down to the gearing section and simply edit which gems are being used. Sim it with the int based and with the secondary stat based setup and see which is better for you.

As for what spec choices to make that also depends on ilvl, playstyle, and the fight/guild strat itself. In ToT I recall definitely being into the "secondary stats are better" territory which 540 is approximate too. Once you start getting geared to SoO levels gosac is pretty potent, especially with a KTT trinket. Especially if you are good at shadowburn/havoc cleaving. KJC vs AD is again preference/playstyle...if I were on progression most of the time I'd use KJC. If its farm and I'm going for max damage AD can be better....stress on the "can be". You can also get poo flung at you everytime you hit a CD, get a trinket proc, or a burn phase pops....in which case its a loss lol.

The answer will depend somewhat on your specific gear. I would think the changeover point is somewhere around 540 if not slightly sooner. You can test this in simC very easily by editing the "simulate" import wall of text page. Look down to the gearing section and simply edit which gems are being used. Sim it with the int based and with the secondary stat based setup and see which is better for you.

As for what spec choices to make that also depends on ilvl, playstyle, and the fight/guild strat itself. In ToT I recall definitely being into the "secondary stats are better" territory which 540 is approximate too. Once you start getting geared to SoO levels gosac is pretty potent, especially with a KTT trinket. Especially if you are good at shadowburn/havoc cleaving. KJC vs AD is again preference/playstyle...if I were on progression most of the time I'd use KJC. If its farm and I'm going for max damage AD can be better....stress on the "can be". You can also get poo flung at you everytime you hit a CD, get a trinket proc, or a burn phase pops....in which case its a loss lol.

Thanks - I'm going to use simC tonight to see what the best outcome is.

As far as the trinket goes - yes that does look like a potent combination with Sac. Unfortunately right now I'm using the 50k timeless trinket and the LFR Malkorok one (~2%) chance to cleave.

I think because of where I find myself I'll stick with AD for now. It seems like the second proc adds a lot of forgiveness to people that aren't perfect. Hopefully that's right...then again being able to cast while moving might be amazing. /conflicted

Personally I would always recommend kjc.
It's a massive a quality of life improvement!
Even today while farming the bosses I still use it - I just love being able to cast while moving.
Then again, that kind of made me a worse player. It happens that I interrupt casts on my alts nowadays, because I forget that they can not move while casting :/