This thread is touching on something I've never gotten my head around. Heaps of movie stars, rock stars etc will say something like this in interviews:

"I had a dream and I stuck to it even though everyone told me I was crazy and it couldn't be done. Don't listen to the doubters! Follow your dream and never let it go and one day you'll get there".

I believed that until I was 28 and saw bands hitting the big time that were not only much younger than my groups, but much better writers and players than we were. Not just better, in another league.

At 28, after a decade of playing around the traps, I figured that if it was going to happen, then it would have already happened ... or at least I'd have been a lot closer to making a living from music than I was. The scene is littered with people who never managed to live the dream and ended up joining the 9-to-5 drones, as I did. The unlucky ones ended up washing dishes.

Thing is, as the song says, ya gotta have faith (and I don't mean religion).

At the same time, people often benefit from cutting their losses and re-evaluating their goals.

They say there's no sense throwing good money after bad.

But winners never quit and quitters never win.

The whole thing does my head in, which is why I haven't offered an opinion on this thread. The idea of sober judgement of probabilities seems incompatible with living the dream. The only intersection seems to be that having a dream is a great motivator to work hard.

No one seems to have pointed this out yet, while you busy working everyday attempting to get tours together, writing, rehearsing etc etc i.e. not earning any money..because to do this you're going have to be full time musician

Where are you and your band going to live? How are you going to pay for housing/bills/food/petrol. When if/you're on tour (by tour I mean a money making tour) you need to making enough money to pay for all those things to and enough to keep the band out of debt and pay off any expenses.

You're going to have personal bills and band bills.

edit - sorry not trying to come across as overally harsh, I got the impression you were only thinking about band finances

You're right Drummingman, we are all trying to tell you why you probably won't be able to pull off what you want to, in the way you want to do it.

Why? It's not that we want to see you fail. Not at all. But if someone is adamant about walking through Hell in a gasoline suit, then naturally we are going to try and talk you out of it, that's all. You are our drumming brother and we don't want to misinform you.

Don't you think that if it could be done that way someone would already be doing it? There's nothing new under the sun. You are discounting everyones experiences who has come before you, pretty arrogant. Look at everyone else's experiences, they have to count for something, right? Listen to what pros like Matt are telling you. You aren't the first person who has come up with this kind of plan. Where are the sucessful models you can point to? Can you name anyone who has done it your way? (Frank Sinatra did it his way lol)

What you are proposing is akin to climbing Mt. Everest without gear. While we are all saying that it probably can't be done, you choose to defy conventional wisdom, on the snowballs chance in Hell that you can go where no man has gone before.

I would venture to guess that the music business has probably the lowest success rate of all the businesses, and that's assuming that you have to go down the debt road. You want to take the very hardest business to succeed in, hamstring yourself by thinking you can finance it yourself, from nothing, and want our encoragement. Can you really blame us for seeing the faults in your logic?

If your son or daughter wanted to do the same thing as you, would you encourage that lunacy?

It's clear that no one will be on your side on this subject. Best to accept the fact that anytime you try to get encouragement with this particular plan, you will meet with at least the same amount of resistance as you're getting here. You said you know you have a lot of hard work ahead. I don't think you have the first clue what you will be encountering.

I'm wondering if you ever plan on having kids...They probably won't fit well in your plan.

In my life i have, and am still, dealing with debt. My goal is to get out of debt and to stay that way for the rest of my life....
The whole thing for me is keeping my bands that im in out of debt with labels and anyone else that way we dont end up getting messed over and that way the label does not have leverage over my bands.

What are all of your thoughts on these things?

thought - not all debt is bad. 20 years ago I took out a mortgage to buy my house. It is now paid off and the house is mine - it's a much nicer house than I would have ended up with had I tried to just build a little bit at a time as I could afford it (or if I just tried to save up until I had enough money to buy it outright). Debt is a way of leveraging your own resources. If you believe in the value of what you acquire and in your ability to pay the debt service, you just have to take that risk. Of course that also means that maxing out a couple of credit cards (at 20% interest) to buy video games and takeout pizza when you have no income would be a BAD way and reason to go in debt.

Signing with a label could be similar in that by doing so, you avail yourself to a vast wealth of resources and knowledge. It's not free - but if the value of what you get from the label allows you to reach your goals - then it could be worth what it costs you to get there. It seems that almost everybody else has posted that there will be significant costs no matter how you go about it - the question you have to answer is what is most important to you - being successful, not taking on any debt, or not ever signing a deal. They're not mutually exclusive - but you may be losing focus on what your ultimate goal is by imposing artificial constraints on yourself.

Drummingman, The majority of us here have played on albums/cd's funded entirely out of pocket with no debt (per your liking) at our local studios. I'm still waiting for my tour to start though...or maybe it did and the guys forgot to tell me? Damnit, that may be why they stopped returning my calls!!!

Couple of quick points, especially in light of the playing field being leveled (somewhat) between bands and labels by the band's ability to sell their music online. I say 'somewhat' because labels serve some purposes that even the most ambitious band cannot achieve without support, specifically in the area of marketing.

First, an established artist can now get along without a label. Why? Because they're established, and that's at least initially thanks to the label. So although it's cheap and easy enough to press pro-looking CDs, make a website, and use Reverbnation, CDBaby, etc for sales and basic promotion, it's a very passive approach, and should not be considered a substitute for the kind of experience and connections that a label can give to an unknown band.

Also consider that videos cost money, mainstream radio doesn't play just any CD that comes across their desk, and iTunes won't put an independent band's music online on a specified date. These areas (and more) are where labels still shine, and getting involved to any extent means being beholden to them. New bands take the worst beating when it comes to negotiations. And there's no way to selectively involve a label when it suits the band. For new bands, it's all or nothing.

Or is it?

Keep in mind that when people from labels are laid-off, they often start consulting. So, it's not hard to get the benefits of label knowledge, experience, and even connections, for a fee, as needed. No 'back-end' or advances, just pay as you go, as you need.

Now this doesn't include tour support, financing for videos, cost to press CDs, a publicity person who can arrange interviews and TV appearances etc, that money has to come from somewhere.

But for the Christian market, there are specific shows and retail stores for which getting access and placing CDs on the shelf are probably easier than dealing with mainstream outlets.

Unless you have unlimited funds, I don't think it's possible to remain completely debt-free in the process, but it doesn't mean having to sign with a label.

First, an established artist can now get along without a label. Why? Because they're established, and that's at least initially thanks to the label. So although it's cheap and easy enough to press pro-looking CDs, make a website, and use Reverbnation, CDBaby, etc for sales and basic promotion, it's a very passive approach, and should not be considered a substitute for the kind of experience and connections that a label can give to an unknown band.

Also consider that videos cost money, mainstream radio doesn't play just any CD that comes across their desk, and iTunes won't put an independent band's music online on a specified date. These areas (and more) are where labels still shine, and getting involved to any extent means being beholden to them.

This is what I was trying to say earlier.

You can go your own label. I've done exactly the above scenario (press pro-looking CDs, make a website, and use Reverbnation, CDBaby, etc for sales). And hey, we sold CD's from Japan to the Netherlands to Brazil.

But it never came close to even covering the costs of printing the CDs.

Granted, it was a niche music, and we weren't expecting to be profitable, but it would have drastically helped to have been on a niche label to add credibility to our product when presenting it to online radio/DJs/and whomever. Otherwise, we're just one of a million bands on CD baby all trying to push their own stuff on their own.

For some reason, many bands, when they've received advances--despite them being called advances, tend to look at it like, "Wow! The record company just simply gave us 200 grand because they like us! Let's go CRAZYYY!!!" Then they spend a bunch of it on new gear, new clothes, paying the bassist's gambling debts, etc. Then, they tend to believe that the record company is providing free studio time for them, so they think, "We've got our shot, we're going to make the best record we can--so it's okay if we're in the studio for 12 weeks. We want this record to be perfect!" Similar things happen buying or renting gear, hiring a crew, etc. for going on the road--they think it's money they're just being given or something.

Then they wonder why they're not getting big checks once the record starts selling, and then the reality that they've got to pay that money back dawns on them. I don't know why so many people make that mistake--I'd say that the vast majority of musicians I've encountered are fairly intelligent, but they do make that mistake.

While it would be nice to finance everything yourself, sometimes that's not that feasible--I've certainly been in bands with guys with day jobs where everyone is living check to check. There's no way we could have saved to make an album in a pro studio with a pro producer ourselves. You do need the record to sound better than you could do or afford yourself many times, and you do need decent gear, including cosmetically, and a decent look, show and crew when you go on the road.

I think the trick is more to not go overboard. You're not getting "free money". You have to keep in mind from the start that you've got to pay all that money back. So shop for the gear you need just as thriftily as if you were putting it on your own credit card. Make sure you're prepared before you go into the studio, and don't screw around at all once you get there. Even if you're doing something with a lot of overdubs and effects, you should be able to get the album done in a couple weeks if you've planned well enough beforehand. Try to make do with a smaller, maybe a bit more inexperienced crew at first, so that's not costing you a fortune (and then down the road, make sure you're loyal to and you reward the guys in the crew who busted their butts for you early on).

With distribution, by the way, the problem is not money so much as having the connections, the network that you need.

I do think That i may be have to go into debt to do what it is that i want to do. That may very well be true. But at the same time if i can avoid that debt then that is my goal.

To be honest there is no point even asking the type of questions on forums that i have asked here (as well as other forums) as well as other questions concerning making it to a place of huge success in a band anymore. Because i have seen the types of responses that i have gotten and will get. At this point its not worth the headache to me anymore to even try to approach these types of topics from a positive and different viewpoint then most (not all i truly hope) people on drum forums. Because i just get bashed for it. So why waste my time talking about these things anymore on these forums. When it comes to talking about certain things i think that drumming forums can be a good thing. But when it comes to talking about trying be successful and trying to do things in different ways, from what i can tell most of the drum forums are useless. Because people just rag on others that believe they can truly achieve their dreams and goals and that believe that they dont have to do eveything the same way that everyone else has done them.

I find it kind of depressing that a lot of impressionable drummers will go on drum forums with a fire in their hearts to reach for their dreams expecting at least most others to feel the same way just to have everyone throw water on their fire. Just because some people have not gotten where they want to be they have a negative viewpoint and they try to project that onto others. When the others dont buy into it that are viewed as naive.

Again, if everybody thought "oh man, its too hard. Theres too much of a chance that i will fail. There are already so many people trying to do it", nobody would ever make it to a place of success (and this is not just in the music business but every other business where its tough to succeed). The people that did not chose to buy into these types of thoughts and that chose to ignore the advice of those that did are the ones that have been (and will be) successful. There is a reason why those who made it to where they want to be tell people not to listen to the naysayers. Its because they heard it all as well. And they refused to listen to the naysayers and they achieved their goals.

Im not arrogant in any way (all the people that know me can attest to this). I just truly believe that with Gods help that anything can be done. Anything! And i refuse to believe differently until God tells me that im wrong (the bible says that with God ALL things are possible). I truly believe this with every fiber of my being. Do i make mistakes? Yes, mistakes all the time. And i am always striving to learn. But i also dont believe that something cant be done just because lots of people tell me that it cant. Im sure that the wright brothers were told that trying to make an airplane was nuts and that they should just give up. But we all know what happened in that story.

I will just go and do what is in my heart to do and what i think is the best way to do things learning from the most positive people as i can as i go. And if i find that im wrong on something then i will do my best to learn what i did or am doing (or believed or am believing) wrong. And then i will do my best to correct my mistake. But i have to at least give things a good deal of thought (and at times try those things) to see if they work or not before i give up on them. And this can even be the case when those that i do trust (people that i know and have known for a good while) tell me that im wrong on something. Because they may be wrong themselves. And the only way that i will know if it just did not work for them and it may work for me will be for me to try it. What i will have to do is really think about the thing that im considering to see if i should try it or not before i do try it.

Coming back to the wright brothers, im sure that they were not the first people that tried to build a flying machine. And i would be willing to guess that those that tried to build an airplane and it did not work out for them either told the wright brothers (or would have told them if they could have) that they were wasting their time. Im sure that they went through a lot of trail and error before they achieved their goals. But they preserved. And in time they were successful.

I do think That i may be have to go into debt to do what it is that i want to do. That may very well be true. But at the same time if i can avoid that debt then that is my goal.

To be honest there is no point even asking the type of questions on forums that i have asked here (as well as other forums) as well as other questions concerning making it to a place of huge success in a band anymore. Because i have seen the types of responses that i have gotten and will get. At this point its not worth the headache to me anymore to even try to approach these types of topics from a positive and different viewpoint then most (not all i truly hope) people on drum forums. Because i just get bashed for it. So why waste my time talking about these things anymore on these forums. When it comes to talking about certain things i think that drumming forums can be a good thing. But when it comes to talking about trying be successful and trying to do things in different ways, from what i can tell most of the drum forums are useless. Because people just rag on others that believe they can truly achieve their dreams and goals and that believe that they dont have to do eveything the same way that everyone else has done them.

I find it kind of depressing that a lot of impressionable drummers will go on drum forums with a fire in their hearts to reach for their dreams expecting at least most others to feel the same way just to have everyone throw water on their fire. Just because some people have not gotten where they want to be they have a negative viewpoint and they try to project that onto others. When the others dont buy into it that are viewed as naive.

Again, if everybody thought "oh man, its too hard. Theres too much of a chance that i will fail. There are already so many people trying to do it", nobody would ever make it to a place of success (and this is not just in the music business but every other business where its tough to succeed). The people that did not chose to buy into these types of thoughts and that chose to ignore the advice of those that did are the ones that have been (and will be) successful. There is a reason why those who made it to where they want to be tell people not to listen to the naysayers. Its because they heard it all as well. And they refused to listen to the naysayers and they achieved their goals.

Im not arrogant in any way (all the people that know me can attest to this). I just truly believe that with Gods help that anything can be done. Anything! And i refuse to believe differently until God tells me that im wrong (the bible says that with God ALL things are possible). I truly believe this with every fiber of my being. Do i make mistakes? Yes, mistakes all the time. And i am always striving to learn. But i also dont believe that something cant be done just because lots of people tell me that it cant. Im sure that the wright brothers were told that trying to make an airplane was nuts and that they should just give up. But we all know what happened in that story.

I will just go and do what is in my heart to do and what i think is the best way to do things learning from the most positive people as i can as i go. And if i find that im wrong on something then i will do my best to learn what i did or am doing (or believed or am believing) wrong. And then i will do my best to correct my mistake. But i have to at least give things a good deal of thought (and at times try those things) to see if they work or not before i give up on them. And this can even be the case when those that i do trust (people that i know and have known for a good while) tell me that im wrong on something. Because they may be wrong themselves. And the only way that i will know if it just did not work for them and it may work for me will be for me to try it. What i will have to do is really think about the thing that im considering to see if i should try it or not before i do try it.

Coming back to the wright brothers, im sure that they were not the first people that tried to build a flying machine. And i would be willing to guess that those that tried to build an airplane and it did not work out for them either told the wright brothers (or would have told them if they could have) that they were wasting their time. Im sure that they went through a lot of trail and error before they achieved their goals. But they preserved. And in time they were successful.

I am sorry but this is one of the single most immature posts in the history of this forum. It's also a slap in the face to everyone who tried to help you. I for one was actually one of the people who told you to keep the dream, but I believed you had to adopt at least a dose of practicality.

Do you really think I don't understand the dream, the fire, what's in the heart etc? Do you think others here don't?

Are you serious?

Over the course of 5 years I was told by at least 100 people on this forum alone that my concepts were wrong and would lead me nowhere. However, I ignored that because behind the scenes I was adopting a clear and practical plan of action that would lead from point A to point B. People also were publicly aware of my actual abilities within the realms of music/ something you still inexplicably avoid/. I've been the epitome of your point And they refused to listen to the naysayers and they achieved their goals. Still even I'm saying your presentation lacks a great deal to be desired and is arrogant to the nth degree.

However, the primary difference between you and me was that instead of just talking about it again and again on a drum forum, and simply and naively taking it for granted that others don't get you. I've actually been out there learning things the hard way and taking hits as I go. You might also want to drop these comparisons to yourself and people like the Wright Brothers because it reveals for all to see an ego bigger than Christmas.

There are doers and there are talkers, while quite frankly those who talk don't get to lecture anyone until they've at least shown something.

Finally when invoking the name of God as a last word gimmick you might want to recall that God helps those who best help themselves.

having brushed through this thread thus far, I'm getting the same enthusiasm/denial scenario that I see all the time in business. Make no mistake about this, the music business is exactly that, a business, and probably ranks amongst the most unforgiving and fickle ones out there.

If you're really interested in ascetaining your best route to succeed, I have something to offer. Not only have I existed at the subsistence level in the music business for some years (although many years ago), I'm what you might class as a reasonably successful business man. Apart from being the managing director of a multi national company for 15 years, my current remit is establishing European operations for American corporations. I'm engaged in that roll by significant clients because I've got a track record of building successful businesses from the ground up. I'm telling you this, by way of qualifying my advice.

I'm frequently asked to review business models, from the tiny to the simply massive. I don't subscribe to the cookie cutter pattern, in fact, I'm often looking for USP in every aspect of the business. I'm all for the guy who want's to do things against the tide. There's potential benefit in stepping off the train, so long as your alternative mode of transport is viable. All this said, no matter how maverick your approach, there are certain elements that must be in/fall into place to offer you any chance of progression. Ignoring basic principals is more about taking an Icarus approach to flight than the path taken by the Wright brothers. Taking the least trodden path might, just might pay off. Who knows, you might just get a good band together, who somehow find a way of producing a market viable recording. It might just be sufficiently unique to go viral, and then just might get the multi outlet exposure to capitalize on the opportunity. You might be lucky and have someone within your band who has both the contacts and the businuss acumen to jump on the opportunity before it fades away. So yes, all things are possible, but as each milestone is reached, the odds lengthen immeasurably.

Irrespective of the path you take, there are a few elements that must fall into place.

1/ your product (yes, sorry, it's a product) must have at least 1 USP. To be enduring, preferably more.

2/ you need a prescribed mechanism in place to both ensure & maintain critical mass.

3/ your business must have clear cashflow plus P&L platform to survive even the early stages. Even though any projection is subject to wild changes, you need a format that can sustain such variations.

4/ you need a plan B!

5/ you need an exit strategy that mitigates personal finance ruin.

There's a ton more to add to that, but there's enough to chew over for now. Going forward, you need to decide whether you have the means, the time, the contacts & the knowledge to pull all of that together. The business element is not something you experiment with, because as you progress, the cost of getting it wrong isn't sustainable.

So, are you equipped & ready to go? If so, great, & good luck to you. Alternatively, you might consider concentrating on your playing and the creative side of the equation, & leave the shitty stuff to someone else.

I suggest you start by developing a product that's ready to go. By your description, you're a way off that yet. Get that in the bag, complete with some critical aclaim, then worry about how you're going to take it forward.

I am sorry but this is one of the single most immature posts in the history of this forum. It's also a slap in the face to everyone who tried to help you. I for one was actually one of the people who told you to keep the dream, but I believed you had to adopt at least a dose of practicality.

Do you really think I don't understand the dream, the fire, what's in the heart etc? Do you think others here don't?

Are you serious?

Over the course of 5 years I was told by at least 100 people on this forum alone that my concepts were wrong and would lead me nowhere. However, I ignored that because behind the scenes I was adopting a clear and practical plan of action that would lead from point A to point B. People also were publicly aware of my actual abilities within the realms of music/ something you still inexplicably avoid/. I've been the epitome of your point And they refused to listen to the naysayers and they achieved their goals. Still even I'm saying your presentation lacks a great deal to be desired and is arrogant to the nth degree.

However, the primary difference between you and me was that instead of just talking about it again and again on a drum forum, and simply and naively taking it for granted that others don't get you. I've actually been out there learning things the hard way and taking hits as I go. You might also want to drop these comparisons to yourself and people like the Wright Brothers because it reveals for all to see an ego bigger than Christmas.

There are doers and there are talkers, while quite frankly those who talk don't get to lecture anyone until they've at least shown something.

Finally when invoking the name of God as a last word gimmick you might want to recall that God helps those who best help themselves.

Some things just need to be said. And i said them. I personally dont care if you think the post was immature. Thats your opinion and your entitled to it. If you told me to keep the dream i thank you. But what some call practicality i call negativity and limiting mindsets that keep a person in a little box.

I think that some of the people that have posted in this thread used to have the dream and the fire. But they stopped believing they could achieve it. Thats obvious from their posts. And what else is obvious is that because they no longer believe they want everyone else that does to believe that its like winning the lottery (which is just another way of saying you dont have a chance).

I dont have to take it for granted that most others here dont get where im coming from. They made that very clear from what they have said. Im glad you have been out there doing your thing. I have also done things as well. Just because i dont post everything about my life on a forum does not mean that i have not accomplished anything.

I know that im not arrogant. I just believe that anything is possible with Gods help.
I was never comparing myself to the wright brothers. I was giving an example of people that did not listen to the naysayers (i guess you missed that).

And i NEVER invoke the name of God as a last word gimmick. This just shows all to well that you dont know me even in the least. God does help those who helps themselves for sure. And i am doing things to help myself. Again, just because i dont post everything about myself here to see if you approve does not mean that im standing still in my life.

I dont hold a grudge against you man for the things that you have said to me. But dude, you personally dont get me at all. And im really ok with that.

I did. There are some points that i do agree with you on. Others not. From what i can tell i agree with most of your numbered points as they apply to going into debt with a lable and as they apply to self financing a big album and a big tour.

After thinking about it more earlier tonight i do believe that i may have to go into debt with a label. I just dont want to end up on the losing end of that deal.

I dont think that i have been in denial. I have just been trying to think of doing things in a way where my band and the band members that i play with dont end up owning more then we can pay back.

My whole reason in starting this thread was to explore different ways of funding albums and tours without the band being in such a bad financial place after they have done the album and after they have done the tour. I hate to see anybody go into debt to where they have to worry about what they are going to do to get out of it. I have heard so many horror stories about money owed killing a band. I just dont want that to happen to my band/bands.

I really want to get the busniess side of things in my head the best that i can. I have come to believe that if one takes a hands off approach to music business they are just asking for trouble. I do have a bit to go before i start another band as is. Im just trying to think ahead that way i dont find myself in a situation and then not know what to do (even though i know this is going to happen at times because i cant prepair for everything. But i can try).

But what some call practicality i call negativity and limiting mindsets that keep a person in a little box.?.

What could be a more limited mindset than to preach hypothetically and anonymously on a drum forum under the pretense of seeking input?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummingman

I dont have to take it for granted that most others here dont get where im coming from. They made that very clear from what they have said. Im glad you have been out there doing your thing. I have also done things as well. Just because i dont post everything about my life on a forum does not mean that i have not accomplished anything..

Maybe you have maybe you haven't. Right now you're this mysterious entity getting numerous similar comments on several drum forums. If this is a publicity gimmick it isn't working. As for publicizing more about yourself maybe you should try it. I still remain perplexed about how you avoid being seen or heard. Roy Haynes once said that the invisible don't get to lecture. Sounds right to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummingman

This just shows all to well that you dont know me even in the least. God does help those who helps themselves for sure. And i am doing things to help myself. Again, just because i dont post everything about myself here to see if you approve does not mean that im standing still in my life.

I dont hold a grudge against you man for the things that you have said to me. But dude, you personally dont get me at all. And im really ok with that.

Dude it isn't up to me to get you.

It also doesn't matter if you hold grudges or any of that other stuff. See that's the whole issue here. You have to first convince others that you're even worthy of that consideration. In my limited experience with this business stuff up now it's all about the clarity and transparency of your presentation. And if it takes more than 5 minutes to get you then they move on to the other million guys standing in the same line with clearer presentations. I actually know a lot about these Christian bands, including the ones going in the same direction as you, and there just as competitive and cutthroat as anything else.

Honestly, I'm always more than happy to be around as many confused guys as possible. All that means is more for me. And that really isn't a cut, that's just a straight up fact. Still nobody can say that I didn't try to help.

Someone mentioned it earlier but there's a heap of good information that I think would be useful for young people considering a music career. I wish I knew this stuff when I was young and idealistic. Drummingman, if you want to minimise debt Brew listed some of the things not to do.

Andy, I'm fairly fluent with corporatese but not enough so to understand your point #2

Quote:

Originally Posted by keep it simple

2/ you need a prescribed mechanism in place to both ensure & maintain critical mass

At the end of the day, we're not gatekeepers or failing to think outside the box, just advocating that a prudent management plan may facilitate more successful outcomes :)

To be honest there is no point even asking the type of questions on forums that i have asked here (as well as other forums) as well as other questions concerning making it to a place of huge success in a band anymore. Because i have seen the types of responses that i have gotten and will get. At this point its not worth the headache to me anymore to even try to approach these types of topics from a positive and different viewpoint then most (not all i truly hope) people on drum forums. Because i just get bashed for it. So why waste my time talking about these things anymore on these forums. When it comes to talking about certain things i think that drumming forums can be a good thing. But when it comes to talking about trying be successful and trying to do things in different ways, from what i can tell most of the drum forums are useless. Because people just rag on others that believe they can truly achieve their dreams and goals and that believe that they dont have to do eveything the same way that everyone else has done them.

I find it kind of depressing that a lot of impressionable drummers will go on drum forums with a fire in their hearts to reach for their dreams expecting at least most others to feel the same way just to have everyone throw water on their fire. Just because some people have not gotten where they want to be they have a negative viewpoint and they try to project that onto others. When the others dont buy into it that are viewed as naive.l.

This simply isn't true.

No one on here is telling you it can't be done.

People are giving honest advice based on "been there, done that, got burned".
Every successful musician on the planet started from no where and got to somewhere.

Of course, it is possible.

But it is difficult, there are 1001 road blocks on the way you'll have to deal with, and you have to be prepared to face them with a realistic point of view.

This post of yours show is showing the complete opposite of what you're talking about. You feel you need to give up discussing it because a few people rubbed you the wrong way. That's not a sign of you being positive, that's a sign of you backing down.

Whatever we say here is going to be minor compared to the real word.

As the saying goes,
"There are are two sides to the music business. One side is dark, seedy, cruel and mean, and there is there is the bad side..."

If you think discussing it here in a safe environment is a waste of time, how will you deal with these issues in the real world?

Most of the initial posts in this thread are saying it can be done, but you have to look at the reality. But rather than look at the reality, you're bashing people for offering real world advice.

Now who's being the negative one here?

I think every single person in this thread would love for you to be the most successful Christian Metal drummer on the planet. But if you can't take constructive criticism and see the reality of what you're up against, you'll never achieve your goals.

dude, i told you roughly what to expect and roughly what it would cost. i said nothing about not doing it. you want every little single detail of it? fine, i'll give it to you. i never once said you couldn't, or shouldn't or anything else.

if you can get the money together go for it, no harm in trying. the only warning i gave you was not to expect making money all the time. sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

so don't go and get all hurt saying nobody helped you and nobody saw your side or your point. everything your talking about i've been doing for years, i don't agree with all your views or your philosophies but thats not saying your wrong either. there's a lot more to doing this stuff then just getting money and thats what people are telling you.

1. get a band
2. get some songs
3. play places and meet people, network

then worry about putting on your shows and starting your own label. it makes no sense to start thinking about doing your own tour if you don't even have a band or songs. it's nice to have goals and such but think realistically and by that i don't mean stop dreaming, i mean think about the things you need first then do them, then the things you need second them do them and so on. i don't see that as being negative, it's setting you in the right direction. or would you rather i tell you oh sure put on that show next week, who needs a band to play it? who needs songs to play? think about tomorrow not 10 years from now, concentrate on whats right in front of you right now rather then what could be in the next decade.

once you have a band and have 10-15 songs then start opening for other bands, get 30 -45 songs start headlining your shows, travel around the local area and build a fan base for a year or 2, then move to near by states for another year or 2.

oh hell with it, i can keep going for hours, you either get the point or you don't. it can be done but you need to put more thought into it and set priorities.

Hey mate at the end of the day go for it, you need to go there to realise all this for yourself...........as was said some great stuff below........

As you've said here mate if you can find another three or four musicians who are as patient as you then go for it..............within a couple of months most are itching and believing 'were not gonna make it' and will fall off the radar.........

But hey get out there and prove us wrong...........I wish you luck and admire your vision

Quote:

I still disagree with you that a Christain metal band cant be hugely successful.

I dont understand why it is so hard for people to understand that it is a building process. And as the band starts to make more money that will open more doors and contacts for us. We wont be starting out with a million dollors. We have to build up to that point.

Of couse its a business. But there are different ways to do business. All business is not done in the same way. There are ways to do things that a lot of epople dont do them that need to be explored.

I know Imogean Heap. i know that she has done well thus far. I think that if she keeps building it up she will get to where she can tour europe at some point. It may take some time but it can happen.

The thought of forming my own label is looking more interesting to me at this point.

Some of you guys have given me good info ( namely your brake down info azrae1, and the info you have given me bermuda). I did not mean for it to sound like no one has not given me any good info in this thread.

That was my final "pay" when a band I played in recently hung up it's hat. We did everything DIY, released 2 indie albums, countless regional shows, 3 national tours and 1 international. We funded everything ourselves with the exception of the international tour, which we received a $12,000 grant from our government, that tour left us with $120 in our bank account.

The second album had a price tag of around $8000, we sold maybe 500 discs @ $10 a pop. We also never saw a return on the money we put into our rehearsal space or our van - where did all this money come from?

Individual members. We worked jobs and saved money that we put into the project. I'd loose pay checks when we went on tour, as did the other guys. How did we pay our rent? We ultimately went into debt with ourselves and we would spend the next couple months making up what was lost to get back on top.

This is one reality. We were able to get the band to pay for itself, but we couldn't pay ourselves. Maybe we could have worked harder, but with limited resources (and having to continue working day jobs), it's tough. We wanted to hire someone to do the booking for us, couldn't afford it. We wanted to hire someone to do radio tracking, no $$. We wanted a publicist, again, no $$. These are the types of things that can allow bands to actually break into new markets and help develop fan bases so that when they tour the area, promoters will actually pay you to bring people out to their events instead of simply taking a cut of the door or "gas money".

What we did was not right or wrong, just one approach. We never solicited labels, so we never got the opportunity to utilize resources they can provide, by the figure I listed at the top of the post, I'd say I saw $0.10 a day for the 5 years I was with this band. Not quite enough to live on...

Having said all that, by all means - I'd love to see you succeed in your endeavors.

Having dreams and goals is important in fueling the machine that will become your band, but be aware that a can of gas won't get you anywhere. You need a solid frame, a good motor, tires that can handle unknown / unpredictable roads and a strong body to protect you from the sometimes harsh elements. You also need a mechanic to help when things start to fall apart... Yes, it's possible to put this all together yourself and it can be done. But where do find find the time to do the single most important part of being in a band, writing songs that you and other's will enjoy? That's the real kicker.

Here's a thought... if you are willing to live in a van and crash on floors to pursue your dream, if you take the money and default on a loan, the worst that could happen would be 3 squares and a climate controlled cell. A step up from instant noodles and a sleeping bag on the floor.

Individual members. We worked jobs and saved money that we put into the project. I'd loose pay checks when we went on tour, as did the other guys. How did we pay our rent? We ultimately went into debt with ourselves and we would spend the next couple months making up what was lost to get back on top.

Are you sure we weren't in a band together? lol I did a couple of those "Bad Credit" tours years ago. Folks left on the tour with nice cars, apartments, etc., then came back from the tour with people trying to repossess stuff, evict them, etc. While on the road, we occasionally slept in the truck and van for a night or two to save some money, and there were many weeks where we were lucky to make $40-50 a piece after we covered expenses. Sometimes it would seem like we were about to get ahead a bit . . . and then the truck would break down, or the mixing board would need to be fixed or something. $2600 per year--that's not a bad salary, is it? Now, maybe if it had been the 1880s instead.

it helps if your tight wad with money like me. i don't spend any money i don't have to unless i see at least breaking even in the end. but there are ways to protect yourself somewhat, like having yourself listed as an llc. may not protct you from everything but going into debt with a promotor or booking agent, they can't come back and sue you and take your house and such. but then you also have to declare all pay to the irs, but then you can take losses off taxes, have to file business plans. it can get pretty tricky...

but thats why i never leave home either, all our gigs are with in a few hours drive so i can come home every night and still work...

That was my final "pay" when a band I played in recently hung up it's hat. We did everything DIY, released 2 indie albums, countless regional shows, 3 national tours and 1 international. We funded everything ourselves with the exception of the international tour, which we received a $12,000 grant from our government, that tour left us with $120 in our bank account.

The second album had a price tag of around $8000, we sold maybe 500 discs @ $10 a pop. We also never saw a return on the money we put into our rehearsal space or our van - where did all this money come from?

Individual members. We worked jobs and saved money that we put into the project. I'd loose pay checks when we went on tour, as did the other guys. How did we pay our rent? We ultimately went into debt with ourselves and we would spend the next couple months making up what was lost to get back on top.

This is one reality. We were able to get the band to pay for itself, but we couldn't pay ourselves. Maybe we could have worked harder, but with limited resources (and having to continue working day jobs), it's tough. We wanted to hire someone to do the booking for us, couldn't afford it. We wanted to hire someone to do radio tracking, no $$. We wanted a publicist, again, no $$. These are the types of things that can allow bands to actually break into new markets and help develop fan bases so that when they tour the area, promoters will actually pay you to bring people out to their events instead of simply taking a cut of the door or "gas money".

What we did was not right or wrong, just one approach. We never solicited labels, so we never got the opportunity to utilize resources they can provide, by the figure I listed at the top of the post, I'd say I saw $0.10 a day for the 5 years I was with this band. Not quite enough to live on...

Having said all that, by all means - I'd love to see you succeed in your endeavors.

Having dreams and goals is important in fueling the machine that will become your band, but be aware that a can of gas won't get you anywhere. You need a solid frame, a good motor, tires that can handle unknown / unpredictable roads and a strong body to protect you from the sometimes harsh elements. You also need a mechanic to help when things start to fall apart... Yes, it's possible to put this all together yourself and it can be done. But where do find find the time to do the single most important part of being in a band, writing songs that you and other's will enjoy? That's the real kicker.

Here's a thought... if you are willing to live in a van and crash on floors to pursue your dream, if you take the money and default on a loan, the worst that could happen would be 3 squares and a climate controlled cell. A step up from instant noodles and a sleeping bag on the floor.

Wow. What a great account. My hat goes off to you jer. And Brew too, if you've been there done that.

Can you all tell me what you think is the best way to get funded by a record label to where it is advantageous for both the band and the label? I'm would like to find out how my band can do well financially to where we make a profit from our endeavors?

Can you all tell me what you think is the best way to get funded by a record label to where it is advantageous for both the band and the label? I'm would like to find out how my band can do well financially to where we make a profit from our endeavors?

I'll give 2 pieces of advise.

First, stop concerning yourself with making money. You mentioned before that you'd like to use your music to share your love of your faith with people, focus on this as it will provide you with much more happiness, satisfaction and enlightenment that earning a paycheck ever will. It's nice to set the bar high, but starting out, you may want to consider "baby stepping" your goals so that you can achieve them and feel satisfied that you reached that goal. Don't loose sight of that bar set high, and keep in mind that you are ultimately on a path to greater things, but start small. Sell 100 copies of your first demo / ep / album. Play a show in another town where no one knows you and melt their faces. Get one of your songs on local radio. You know these things will help take you in the direction you want to go, but they are goals that are easier met than "I want to make money", and will help strengthen and grow your band as you progress, rather than slap you in the face every time you only make $40 at a gig.

Secondly, as for a more direct answer to your question, I really don't know. Presenting a label with a radio quality album is a good start. Eliminate the need for an advance for recording. Have decent, reliable gear that will not need to be upgraded if you hit the road. Research existing contracts, know what to look out for. A couple books were mentioned earlier, get a couple to learn from others experiences (and mistakes).

Labels vary greatly - some of the bigger guys are machines that put out product, some smaller ones tend to foster creativity a little more - explore your boundaries as a band and how far you are willing to go to fit a mold and solicit labels you feel will fit with what you hope to accomplish.

Can you all tell me what you think is the best way to get funded by a record label to where it is advantageous for both the band and the label? I'm would like to find out how my band can do well financially to where we make a profit from our endeavors?

Throughout this thread you seem to come off as someone who thinks that he is absolutley going to be signed to a record label and such a thing is simple to do. But instead you want to do it yourself and get all the money. Now you want to know how to negotiate with a record label so you can digress and settle for a little less money. I don't care if your band is the best band in a large city, there is no way to be assured that a record label will even let you talk to a receptionst, let alone give you a deal. The music business, at least the kind you are thinking of with record labels and such, is only a job for those who are already in it. Anyone wanting in just doesnt fill out an application and get hired. It's a long shot on the best of days and to think your going to make it is an ok dream to have but your getting an awfully late start in life for that sort of thing.

Can you all tell me what you think is the best way to get funded by a record label to where it is advantageous for both the band and the label?

I'm not aware of a way to have both. If you were to be signed, you can be sure it's for the label's advantage, not the band's. If the band makes it to the end of their contract, has been successful and the label wants to hang on, only then does the band possess any negotiating power.

Longevity is the way to make money in this business, very very VERY few artists make any real money right off the bat (and only a few of them can hang onto it.)

Things just aren't as simple or fair as you'd like them to be regarding the business.

The first step would be to put a group of some sorts together, write songs, practice, & start gigging!

Strange this little snippet of fact seems to keep getting lost in this thread. All this talk of money and record deals and what is or isn't acceptable from a record company, is pure fantasy without a band to market in the first place.

I stopped taking this thread seriously a long time ago, but I really wish this fact wasn't continually overlooked......it would really help the cause I think.

I'm still yet to see an unknown, signed, solo drummer with no band and no music, shifting a couple of hundred thousand units of his latest drum solo cd.

Can you all tell me what you think is the best way to get funded by a record label to where it is advantageous for both the band and the label? I'm would like to find out how my band can do well financially to where we make a profit from our endeavors?

All the posts after the one I'm responding to had very good advice and accurate comments, imo. Just two things I'd add:

(1) You need to develop a goal list, and there needs to be three parts to it: (a) long term goals--where you want to be in five years say, (b) intermediate goals--what would be about "halfway" to your long term goals, and (c) immediate, short term goals--steps you need, and more importantly that you CAN take from TODAY to a few weeks from now to get closer to your intermediate goals. Don't just think about this. You need to literally write it out with headings of "long term goal(s)", etc., and you need to regularly look at it and make sure that you're working on it.

Your goal list will need to be periodically reassesssed, for two reasons: one, your goals might change a bit as you go along, and two, at least the intermediate and short term goals are going to change as you work on them--you'll realize and/or figure out better things you need to do to get to your longer term goals. I'd reassess it, writing out a new one, between every three to six months. Don't reassess/rewrite it too often. If, within six months, you would believe that you don't need a new goal list yet, you really do, because that means that you haven't progressed on the short term goals--you either didn't make them short term enough, you didn't make them things that you can definitely achieve now, or you haven't been working on it, so you'd need to come up with something that you really would do, that you really have the motivation for. Obviously your short term goals can't be things like "get a record contract". They need to be things that you can do, or begin doing, TODAY, without having to bank on being lucky, or someone doing something unusual to help you, etc.

(2) This should be part of your short term goals, and pretty much a persistent part of it if you want to make a living in an arts or entertainment field, but it bears stressing it on its own: You should ALWAYS be working on making and maintaining contacts in the industry. At first it's not likely to be anyone too important in the industry, because you're just not going to be able to get in touch with them. You have to work your way up. It's important to not burn any bridges, and it's important to try to keep continuing, healthy relationships with everyone you've networked with so far, even if they do not seem important in the industry now--they might be in the future. It's important to do this even when it seems like you're doing most of the work of maintaining the relationship and keeping it amicable--otherwise, again, you could burn a bridge that's going to cost you down the road. Success in arts & entertainment industries comes largely from successful networking, and on the flipside of that, no matter how talented you might be, if you do not network well, do not socialize well, if you're difficult to get along with or work with (to put it politely), chances are that you're going to hurt yourself and before too long, you'll probably be out of work altogether.

Shelby....I'll tell you again.... what I've told you for the last several years on my forum.

You're trying to make the worlds best soup......but, you don't have the ingredients to make it.....nor the pots and pans to cook it in.

I would be the first to tell you to go for it and follow what you're trying to do.......
IF YOU HAD A BAND
Or, at the very least......the basic fundamentals of trying to reach your goals.
How are you going to negotiate with a label.......if you don't even have a band?

You have no current video (or any of merit at all) No band, no songs, no presence (other than wanting something to happen on internet forums) I don't even know if you have a drum kit.
You have put ZERO effort in trying to reach these goals....other than ask for opinions on forums....and, that doesn't help you get anywhere.

Do you seriously think that you're going to get people to give you pats on the back for trying..... when you don't have....not even one of these things.

And, you're how old at this point?

Dude....people who truly want to do this.....DO THIS.

Without the wishes of a "big break" or "making it", etc...

You seem to lack the biggest part needed for "making it happen" and, that's desire to play.
If you had that.....you'd have videos, a few bands, etc....not just the hopes of "making it".
Until you find that missing piece....you need not worry about opinions on internet forums.

Prove us wrong.....show us you love to play...because without that.....you have nothing.

How cool is this place when a guy like Derek Roddy chimes in with his take on things.
That's like John Bonham bitch slapping you lol

Hopefully Shelby is getting a band together as we speak. Or is writing songs.
This thread would make a good topic for your first song Shelby. Something about how against all odds you're going to do it or die, because your faith is unshakeable.

Right? We just had Ron Dunnett and friggin Ray Ayotte posting too.
As far as I'm concerned, this is THE drum capital of the WORLD. Bernhard will go forever down in history.
Back on topic, write some songs!

Man this is an interesting topic. Im going through the same stuff myself- ive been playing with this one group for about two years and were breaking the bank trying to release an album independently.

Im going to sound like an advertisement here (as I posted the following link in another topic), but there is a way to get funding, you just have to be willing to work. Kickstarter.com is a great way of getting funding for different projects. Im actually in the middle of a campaign now (to check out my page, visit http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...upcoming-album) and, while its going a bit slow, we still have nearly 40 days to complete our project. Get creative to market your music, do something new; playing great music will only get you so far nowadays. You have to be creative and adamant.

If you have built up a decent fanbase from playing locally and regionally, continue to stay connected with those fans, and give them a reason to buy your product, theres no reason you cant make the money yourself. I know a lot of people are going to call me crazy, but its true- you dont need to sign over your rights and go into debt to make it. Let me repeat: YOU DONT NEED TO GO INTO DEBT TO MAKE IT. Independence IS the future of the music business.

There are so many case examples of this success, too. Take Trent Reznor, for exampl. While he started off as a signed act to a major label, he broke away from their contract and has been running independently since. One promo tool he used was the use of pre orders; on his website, he had a $250 package that sold out within within 30 hours. Over 200 had been sold. Do the math...thats big money for a single person to take in.

Think about it like this- your group makes 100% of the profit if you remain independent while barely taking 5-10% if youre signed. That means you have to sell at least 10x as much signed to make the same profit. If youre creative enough, you can build a fanbase...you just gotta start thinking.