09 August 2006

Who has killed more, Satan or God?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:7

In a previous post, I counted the number of people that were killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,476,633, which, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given. No attempt was made to include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc., with which the good book is filled. Still, 2 million is a respectable number even for world class killers.
But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible?
Well I can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. I'm talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job ... And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
...
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD ... put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
...
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house...And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. -- Job 1:1-19

So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings. If so, then the tally would be:

No contest. Update
I've tried to assign numbers to the un-numbered killings in the Bible. You can see the detailed list here.
The results were even more lopsided: 25 million (plus or minus a few million) for God; 60 for Satan.
Here is a more complete table.

Keep in mind the Bible was written a long time ago long after the events had already occured. Back then, people more than likely believed natural disasters were sent from God above. If that is truly the case.. do you feel the Tsunami was sent from God or just a natural disaster?

The bible was written by textbook authors. They heard the stories from a friend who heard them from a friend. How many times to you think the story was changed before it hit paper.

God gets to take credit for every death and every life given, considering it's his power and priveledge alone to do so (he says we all hafta die anyway), and ...Some say that the number of those who are alive and have lived in the past number about 10 billion, perhaps an easy 20 billion if you count the miscarriages and abortions. (some say)....Then this would make God the biggest mass murderer of all time, having credit for every life and every death. Big :-)

According to the Bible, specifically I Corinthians 15, death itself came into the world because of sin (the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden). The great message of the Bible, however, is that God sent his only son, Jesus, to die on a cross and in doing so pay the debt of the world's sins (Philippians 2:7-9, and everyone's favorite, John 3:16).

The great message of the Bible is that God had to do some sort of magic? Send his magic son to die to solve some problem he had created himself? I mean, it played OK 2000 years ago, but aren't we all a little bit more grown up now?

A better story is that God figured he'd show us that there's a way to live without resorting to being a bastard. So that's what he did, until we nailed him to a tree. And then started telling some magical bullshit story about the whole thing, completely missing the point of it all. I wonder if God doesn't wish he hadn't wasted his time...

The story of Job, incidentally, makes a lot more sense if you think of it as saying that *we* know the difference between good and evil, without the need for the intercession of God. Then instead of indicting God as some kind of bastard who plays silly games with the lives of people, it's God telling Satan, no, seriously, people know what's right and what's wrong, or at least my man Job over there does. I don't have to tell him.

That is until the end, where Job gets the idea that once you've helped God prove a point you're home free. That's when God finally uses his LART.

Not that I believe in God, or that I think the Old Man of the Old Testament wasn't a right bastard 99% of the time. Just saying, you know.

More to the point, people watching Zena aren't going to ACTUALLY BELIEVE in that person fighting monsters. They understand that it's FICTION, which is what people who read 2000 year old tales of magic should realize too.

There's a great difference between killing and murder, one being that killing is not necessarily an evil or inexcusable act, whereas murder is.

As for what someone said earlier regarding the fact that God created the people before killing them, and is therefore in some way responsible... St Augustine spent a long time pondering this, the origin of evil. He came to the conclusion, a logical one, that evil is the result of turning away from God. Free will allows for this.

All hypothetical, if you even believe all that stuff. As an atheist it's all fun to chat about

Why did god gave us free will, if by using it we hurt and kill our selves and others. Is it not like giving a baby a razor blade and then blaming it when it cuts itself? It sounds a little bit perverse to me?

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours - Stephen Roberts

As the English language lacks the use of the full range of this energy in the sense of the electromagnetic spectrum, in common usage realities are also incomplete.

In general: the colours of the rainbow are used, yet the parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, such as: infra-red, ultra-violet, gamma- and x-rays are not in the realities created by using the English language.

Of course not to forget that science has the law of conservation of energy and momentum and energy is transformable. In order to apply this law, energy has to be indestructible. And as we are energy, we are also indestructible, we do transform though. (Baby, toddler, teenager, etc.)

Time also is a concept available in some languages; the language of the Hopi-nation lacks this concept, which is actually a description of movement. In short, we cannot walk into the same house twice, as energy changes constantly and the house and we are energy.

Language is also used to have people believe all kinds of things and thus being able to govern them.

The phrase: “Avoid comparing apples with peers”, “ A comparison always goes with a limb” or similar, should ring a bell.

The issue with comparing is, one forms opinions. And these opinions are mistaken for the truth. A prime example is the financial world. All financial institute are based on making comparisons, albeit often sub-consciously. The financial records are not truths, but opinions. For instance comparing the buying-price with the selling-price, to determine for instance the so-called ‘profit’ or ‘loss’. Both profit and loss are expression of opinions, not truths! Enron being one example of people believing that they can make a profit and being sent on a wild goose chase. In the moment, for instance Apple computers is also having differences of opinions with the SEC. Same use of language, comparisons and beliefs of people.

Also having an Almighty God, Great Spirit who all at once has a 'Satan' who is even more powerful, as this ‘Satan’ can defy the Almighty, is a ridiculous idea. And it is a comparison and a sales pitch of the Room Catholic Church. The RC church thus gives itself power, by selling they can help people from going to hell. As long as people believe this, the churches business is fine.

This is actually a way to govern people. The divide and conquer principle, applied. By keeping them ignorant and letting the confuse opinions with the truth, by conditioning them to compare. And thus using education to have humans sub-consciously compete with each other and thus those who govern, have a pleasant life-style.

Sorry to be the one to tell everyone this, but no matter what you say and what you do to try and convince the average christian that christ didn't exist, they still won't believe you. If you could prove that god didn't exist on paper, it wouldn't matter either. God exist because people BELIEVE he does, and that's why it is called a belief system. It's funny to think that with the statistics right in front of their face, from the book they believe in, yet they are still so ignorant. Maybe that's why the saying goes, "The Wrath of God", because if you don't believe in what he says than either he or some of his crazy followers will hunt you down and burn your ass at the stake. You bunch o' witches!

Statistics are based on opinions, just as bookkeeping is. Can be manipulated endlessly.

It is about unconditional love for oneself. One has to love oneself unconditionally!After al, how is one to be aware of unconditional love, if one lacks the experience? Trying to squeeze it out of some else is useless as the other equally lacks the experience.Actually this is romance, not love. And even using the game of scrabble one can endlessly create new words to label them as conditions, which are to be met. An endless effort and one ends-up judging oneself. Judge not, for as thou judges one will be judged (by oneself as one hears oneself talking to oneself)

Unconditional love for oneself also avoids making comparisons, and thus creating opinions and confusing them with the truth.

The phrase: “Avoid comparing apples with peers”, “ A comparison always goes with a limb” or similar, should ring a bell.

Dang, that is some confusing spelling! It's actually supposed to be "Avoid comparing apples with pears" and "A comparison always goes with a limp." They still almost make sense the way you spelled them, that's why they're so confusing.

This issue can be summed up by considering what the Bible has to say about death. The introduction of sin into a perfect environment (i.e., the "fall" in Genesis) also introduced death. Ultimately, the very fact that mankind can die is a result of Satan's work, therefore all death results from him. Even deaths that are attributed to God - anthropomorphically, of course - are a result of sin, and thus only righteous judgement on God's part.

Tallying opposing death tolls really proves nothing more than a lack of understanding concerning the nature of life, death, good and evil.

Thanks, English is not my native language. This situation, also does offer perspectives.

The Bible also has this issue. ‘The Book of J” is one book that deals with the effect of language in regard to translating the Bible, or other books for that matter.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802141919

That is also why there is a multitude of translations of the Bible. German translations, in multitude differ in meaning to the English translations. Mind you the Bible, for one mentions this phenomenon –The Tower of Babel- comes to mind.

Having differences of opinion is unavoidable. We simply just don’t control. Hence the next step, a difference of opinion, is no issue when it comes to matters of the heart.

Life and death are not two different states of being, but different aspects of the same sate of being. Otherwise the laws of energy would dysfunction, which the do not.

Satan doesn't have the power to kill people, but to induce them to kill themself, or to kill others, including their fgamilies, Satan is the one who tells you to do that things, but you are the one that take the action.

That's the reason that Satan only has 10 kills in the bible.

but if you notice, i.e. sodoma and gomorra were burned because satan induced that behavior (killing, drinking, orgys) to the people's minds.

Fiction defined as: 'An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented' - by nature also applies to government, the financial systems etc.

Taking something for granted and/or accepted as true without proof is a common action, also know as making assumptions. An example is the FED and the fiat currrency the US dollar, US dollar values. By using legal semantics (legalese) there is the Court Ruling that the Federal Reserve is Privately Owned (Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)Using semantics to create fiction to create something otherwise creating realities is a human quality.

Mind you creating/building churches is a possibility, not a necessity. According to many versions of the Bible, Jesus held service on the mount. Jesus also disagreed with the financial institutions such as the moneychangers in the temple.

Jesus for one is named the messiah, Messiah in the meaning ‘liberator’. Jesus foremost is the liberator (messiah) of Jesus. After al, no one can lead who has not been there himself/herself. One needs the experience.

Being liberated from the 'moneychangers' (financial institutions) is one step in becoming free. Being free, the intention of being a Messiah?

Intresting. This doesn't mean Satan is a good guy, it just underlines the fact that God is far from nice. That's the whole point. I, as a nihilist, agree. No need to get intense over the Bible. We should do some research on how many people God killed in other non jewish-christian books. Bottom line: God is not nice af far as westerns are concearned.

It requires little imagination to be aware that for instance a human can be both a producer and consumer simultaneously. It also possible to define a producer as he/she/it who produces that what is to be consumed and consumption itself..

In doing so, economics transforms. After al there is a multitude of forms of economics. By altering definitions and or introducing ‘new’ words and thus ‘new’ concepts the picture creation of economics also alters. Of course this is also possible in bookkeeping for instance and influencing the financial reporting and status of all involved.

This dualistic (black/white) thinking is not a prominent in Eastern thinking. Eastern languages for one lack the thinking patterns introduced by for instance: Socrates, Plato etc.

An example:

Middle Eastern -Dualistic: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a toothEastern –: An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind.

It is mind over matter but also mind into matter. So one can change the significance of life with one word, its spelling, its meaning, its message unheard.

Or as a multitude of religions state one-way or other: "There is nothing (space = potentiality), there is the word (language) and with words God, the Great Spirit, Goddess is creating the heavens and the earths".

We have will as is. In order to have free will we would have to know everything, we don't.

Further, choices are related to the language and are often opinion based. Choices a person can make in one language for reason it has a word and concept in order to make the choice, one cannot make if one uses another language which lacks the word an the concept.

In other words: If one has to/want to participate in a game and the rules, the game, the expression used are a complete mystery, one cannot play the game.

In a nutshell: It is all relative, in this case, for one to semantics.

In order to have the concept of God/Satan one has to be a dualistic thinker. This is a form of conditioning one aquires from the surroundings one grows-up in.

"Caleb Horton said... Keep in mind the Bible was written a long time ago long after the events had already occured. Back then, people more than likely believed natural disasters were sent from God above. If that is truly the case.. do you feel the Tsunami was sent from God or just a natural disaster?

The bible was written by textbook authors. They heard the stories from a friend who heard them from a friend. How many times to you think the story was changed before it hit paper."

Mind you, not only applies to the Bible, but also to for instance history books. History is, for one an accumulation of opinions. Opinions are alterable. And having a language that uses the concepts of 'past, present, future' is a must.

The bible was written by textbook authors. They heard the stories from a friend who heard them from a friend. How many times to you think the story was changed before it hit paper.Actually, many of the Bible writers were firsthand witnesses of what they wrote about.

2 Million to 10......Hmmm.... sounds to me like God wins. I'm going to serve the one who has that ability, not the one who can only kill 10 and then only with the permission of the one who killed the 2 Million to begin with.....God wins, hands down. :-)

Anyone who allies himself with a mass murderer who's killed two million people over resisting that person isn't any kind of "good person", and also is no one I'd like to meet.Since they're both fictional characters anyway, it's a moot point, but Satan strikes me as the nicer of the two. All God's actions are indicative of a tyrant - Disallowing eating from the tree of knowledge, disallowing harmless deviant action (Like not believing in someone who sends ambiguous signals in the first place), allowing and bringing into creation child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc.. Ah, well, Mikey. Enjoy hanging with Hitler's distant ancestor while I chill with the Flying Spaghetti Monster of peace.

"All God's actions are indicative of a tyrant - Disallowing eating from the tree of knowledge, disallowing harmless deviant action (Like not believing in someone who sends ambiguous signals in the first place), allowing and bringing into creation child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc.. "

Human beings were completely innocent and without any guilt when God created them. (We won't argue about that point right now.) God didn't disallow eating from the tree of knowledge (condemning us to ignorance), but from the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. Adam and Eve, the first parents, who taught their children, who then taught their own children, down to us today, chose to know EVIL. They chose to know the difference between good and evil, and, therefore, are responsible for the evil that they chose to do. As are we responsible for the evil we have chosen.

Who has NEVER chosen to do wrong?? Even as young children, we begin to recognize when we are doing something we shouldn't. Because we choose to do what we know is wrong, we are guilty and deserve death. The other tree in the Garden, the TREE OF LIFE, was not forbidden until human beings disobeyed. All death, destruction, and evil is a direct result of our insisting upon knowing THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL.

Hi,Interesting article :)Let me share my opinion, though it won't be popular.First, we have to realized that we are not in equal position with God, He is our creator. Life as we know it, is given by Him.Second, the people you mentioned, died because of sin. (by no means I am saying that as a Christian I am better. I was a sinner and still am. I'm not better that non-Christian, and sometimes even worse.) Unfortunately, the word "sin" has lost much of it's meaning in today's culture, while God takes sin seriously (click here to see my thoughts on sin).One thing that cross my mind when I read your posting, it's awfully brave of God to put things that can be used against Him, that incriminate Him in the Bible.Cheers.

Ah, so many people being non-spiritual. Please, don't let science and religion be at war. The rules are written, if you would just look what's in front of your eyes you'll know. The bible isn't fictional, most of the things in the book have similarity to events that already happen. "History repeats itself..." According to my research, it is no coincidence that there are demons, angels, ghosts in every religion, it is a fact that they do exist and it's very possible to feel their presence. Example, Science will base the facts as a brain disfunction and religion will based it on a demon. Science still can't describe why sometimes we itch in certain spots, think about that. Still think ghosts are not real? Talk to people who have seen them or are they all messed up in the head? Ghosts are nothing more than wondering spirits who don't realize that they are dead and still haven't gone for that light at the end of the tunnel. I have no clue why the bible was written, but I realized that it's the only thing people can look and point at it. You know you can't point to god, let along see god's face. And if you know science you should understand that there is a balance in the universe; there is a such thing as a force to be everything and none, because it is the opposite of existing and void.

Ghosts are hallucinations done by the demons subliminally. For science folks; it's the part of your brain that you day dream: being taken over and placed in your subconscious part of the brain. As some people would say, "half awake". The demons use this method to bring you fear or alternate your reality to a fantasy of misbelief. Also, those folks who said God has "killed" more people than Satan, then Bin Laden never killed anyone; he just messed up the terrorists' minds and made them believe they are going to marry 1000 virgin women by sacrificing themselves for their god.(Still believe Satan and his demons don't kill? Look around you, explain why people kill out of anger and some of them lived normal lives, peaceful lives, yet they still decide to steal or kill or murderer; like an instinct inside of us to do what is bad.)Those who said God kills, you're highly mistaken; If I created a robot and all he does is murder people, do everything in the wrong way, not listening to my instructions; as a human being, I would destroy MY creation and make a new robot who obeys. Now God's level of intelligence surpasses my infinite times over but I was smart enough to 'pick' sense from it. God destroys the "itch" or the people who kill for pleasure, who steal for pleasure, who murders for pleasure, who kills their own family, friends for money, who doesn't listen to him and do bad over and over. What is right? What is right and wrong anyway? Look, when you go to get something to eat, it is good harmony in God's eyes, when you play with children and help them to grow, you do what is good, but when you can tell me raping women is fun or raping children is good. Then you're just as sick as the demons. So, what is God removing anyway? Besides, if God "ALLOW" Satan to take a life of his righteous people, He can bring them back at a proper time, a place of peace where they won't be killed a second time by evil people or demons. This is GOD's creation and Satan and his demons can enjoy the sickness on this planet while it lasts. He can play Bin Laden for all I care. So if you're saying God kills then Satan is an excellent cold blooded murderer; indeed such a perfect murderer of a strategist, has done so without even having to lay a hand on you, shows you how intelligent he really is to use things not even scientists can understand "How?"

I cannot say how amusing it is when people flaunt science as somehow much more stable than any other form of knowledge. How many times has science proven itself wrong? How many times have fallacies that were once held up as indubitable facts been proven wrong? Don't forget that for 2,000 years the Sun orbited the Earth. The problem does not lie in the truth of science versus the fallacy of religion, rather the problem lies in the inability of man to fully understand the universe he is in. Scientists will tell you that the sheer amount of things we don't know is absolutely staggering, enough to make you sick really. What is it to say that perhaps God is just one thing that science hasn't proven yet, one of those scientific facts that just hasn't been discovered. Remember that the planet surrounding Alpha Centauri existed before we could believe it. The art of astronomy is the perfect allegory for knowing the existence of God. Astronomers see the effects of a planet's gravitational pull in a nearly imperceptible wobble in the nearest star. They cannot see the source of the change itself but they know it is there by the effect it has. Perhaps we should start looking for the source of the wobble. I know that many will just reject this out of hand because I call into question the validity of sound scientific fact. I know that many will find this just another grasping attempt to somehow validate my beliefs. Yet there is nothing in my critique of science that is not true, the scientific facts are as you say, indisputable and dare I say, scientifically, logically, sound.

I suppose if you say God killed people through such things as plague, famine, and weather, that is, these natural elements are created by and under God's control...then God kills everyone! All the billions of people that ever walked the earth! Pretty bad...but then you could also say that he gave everyone life in the first place so I guess he's breaking even (minus one if you count his son that died but never really died)

You see "God" kills because because of xyz, and satan because of abc. I know this because somehow like everyone else posting I know exactly how and why metaphysical untestable unobserved things like "god and satan" work. Yes you see I can tell you the exact method in which satan or god kills, and it goes like this HEY LOOK OVER THERE

Show me a copy of the Bible that God himself wrote! He has the ability to create the universe, and everything in it, but he cannot write a book? Jesus himself, while here in person, (if he was really god's only son) did not write anything either. Not that it would make much difference. I want a copy of the bible that god or Jesus wrote. Not a fictional novel created by man or one of Jesus' disciples. Dude supposedly walked on water, but he could not transcribe his own teachings? Yeah, I am really going to listen to some one preach that is afraid to put his own words on paper!

Above it is mentioned that God created all the people he killed, as a means of mitigating his guilt.

Ah yes, because it is OK if you kill your children, just not if you kill someone elses...

One might also point out that the Bible credits God with creating only two (or if your blasphemous, three) individuals. The people in the city of Sorrow that Cain goes to after offing his brother are just 'there' without a specified genesis.

In the days where the pioneers travelled west on caravans, there was 2 simple rules of conversation. Do not discuss politics or religion... lest someone eventually be shot.

Each one of us has his or her own beliefs, and should respect those of others, even if they disagree.

I, as a Christian, extend my tolerance of anyone elses beliefs in the hopes that you quit bashing my God, and quit bashing my beliefs. These are sacred to me. If you people have a shred of descency, you'll quit being so quick to bash Christianity and all Christians.

"Anonymous said... Above it is mentioned that God created all the people he killed, as a means of mitigating his guilt.

Ah yes, because it is OK if you kill your children, just not if you kill someone elses...

One might also point out that the Bible credits God with creating only two (or if your blasphemous, three) individuals. The people in the city of Sorrow that Cain goes to after offing his brother are just 'there' without a specified genesis. "

The bible also says that God knit us together in our mother's womb. So, he made all of us.

Doesn't say anything about the quality of those who died though. They were people consumed by sin and evil. So the deaths by God according to this poll were deaths against evil.. Sounds to me.. Like Good vs. Evil.. Good is winning by a long shot. No contest.

"I cannot say how amusing it is when people flaunt science as somehow much more stable than any other form of knowledge. How many times has science proven itself wrong?"

Exactly. PROVEN itself wrong. How many times has religion believed itself wrong? I think the relevant factor here is doubt, not belief. Although I think that one can be religious AND hold to basic scientific theory I think that the first thing you must do is learn to doubt yourself. If man is falible, why isn't your belief falible?

"How many times have fallacies that were once held up as indubitable facts been proven wrong? Don't forget that for 2,000 years the Sun orbited the Earth."

No, for 2,000 years people BELIEVED that the sun orbited the Earth.

"The problem does not lie in the truth of science versus the fallacy of religion, rather the problem lies in the inability of man to fully understand the universe he is in. Scientists will tell you that the sheer amount of things we don't know is absolutely staggering, enough to make you sick really. What is it to say that perhaps God is just one thing that science hasn't proven yet, one of those scientific facts that just hasn't been discovered."

As are... Bigfoot, little green men from Mars, and ghosts. One cannot prove a negative statement at all. Perhaps my pen drops to the ground because fairies drag it there. Perhaps it is because of gravity. Which makes more sense? This is all that science asks. I would argue that most scientists are not so much saying 'God Does Not Exist' as rejecting God as the knee jerk answer for everything. God may or may not exist, but he certainly is not the direct cause of my flu.

"Remember that the planet surrounding Alpha Centauri existed before we could believe it. The art of astronomy is the perfect allegory for knowing the existence of God. Astronomers see the effects of a planet's gravitational pull in a nearly imperceptible wobble in the nearest star. They cannot see the source of the change itself but they know it is there by the effect it has. Perhaps we should start looking for the source of the wobble. I know that many will just reject this out of hand because I call into question the validity of sound scientific fact. I know that many will find this just another grasping attempt to somehow validate my beliefs. Yet there is nothing in my critique of science that is not true, the scientific facts are as you say, indisputable and dare I say, scientifically, logically, sound."

the whole problem here is this concept of the sanctity of life. Perhaps god told moses thou shalt not kill, because its my damn job, and I'm the only one who knows when it should happen. Death and evil aren't necessarily connected, you know. It seems to me that evil in a biblical sense is connected to disobedience of perceived divine will, rather then a broad labeling of actions as good or evil.

Hmmm, a Christian gets mad because people are bashing his belief, yet I'll bet he was silent when the dutch newspapers were bashing Islam. I'll bet he doesn't feel the slightest bit of remorse for the crusades.

1. You assume that killing someone is evil. What about someone dying a horrible death, is it evil to stop their suffering?

2. God has the ability to allow everyone to live forever, therefore every death could be "blamed" on God.

3. Because you can't see the timeline God can, you have no idea of the good that could have been caused by the untimely death of a number of people.

4. You don't account for God's wrath and the understanding our souls had on the way down here. We're here by the grace of God, if you don't do the good things you should be doing, he'll expire your contract. That's not His fault, that's yours.

By imposing a sentance of death on each and every unborn child of Adam and Eve, although those children had comitted no sin of their own, God is culpable not only for every death of every person in the world. By forcing a predisposition of inherant sinfulness upon humanity, he took away our free will. The argument that "He gave us life" holds no water, in fact it shows the cruelty of God in an even clearer light. Creating life and then forcing it to endure millennia of pain, suffering and death is not the mark of a God of love. It is the mark of a God who has left the scene of His crime.

The thing that everybody is forgeting is that there was no death or sin until Satan tempted Eve into eating the apple from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Whereby Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden of Eden and only then did death come into play. Hence the Devil is responsible for Death because it was not even a factor until he came along. And because of that temptation Satan is responsible for all death. God grants life, Satan grants death. In the book of Revelation it says at the end of times that Death will be cast into the lake of eternal fire along with Satan and all of his followers. Satan is responsible for the original cause of death and will be punished for all eternity along with death (Angel of Death). Aside from that it is man killing man or disease and the like which are all a result of Sin. God doesn't and hasn't killed anyone.

Satan didn't force anyone to eat the damn apple. That was Eve's choice. And God created the damn tree. They might have eaten from the tree eventually even if Satan wasn't around. Plus God created Satan.

God's a dork, and he still owes me for lunch last week. Stuck me with the check after ordering Lobster thermadore. Now Satan, on the other hand, always buys the first and last round. Stan also never impregnated anyone and then abandonded them to be denied, whipped, and nailed to a tree. IMHO, God's just another Stev-o, and Satan is tons more respectable.Besides, how bad can he be? Hell's full of chicks!

There's one flaw in your calculations. If Satan had not caused Eve to sin & then Adam. They & their offspring would have lived forever. Therefore Satan has caused the death of every human who has ever lived.

Okay, once again to all you idiots who say Satan is to blame for Eve to sin. Read the damn Bible, God would have let it slipped if Adam didn't sin.

Also, God created Satan. Since God knows everything, he knew what Satan would do. He also knew what Eve would do. So he could have stopped it from ever happening.

Let's get theoretical too. What if Satan wasn't around. Then Eve decided "hey, I want to try the forbidden fruit..." Then it would be Eve's fault. But in reality it would also be partly God's responsibility. Hell, he knew they would try it.

It's like leaving a Gold watch in the middle of the Ghetto and expecting no one to take it.

God made Satan, Eve, and Adam. He raised them all. So it is his fault they turned out like they did no? Bad parenting I tell you.

Oh, you disagree with that. Okay, let us try this. God knows everything (Bible says so.. lol). So if he knows everything, he knew what they would do and didn't do anything. Which makes him a partner in crime, making him partly responsible. If someone knew someone was going to kill someone else and didn't do anything, wouldn't he be partly to blame. This goes with the saying "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do nothing."

God let Evil triumph, so it is HIS fault there is death. No matter which Angle you choose, the blame falls on God.

God created all with free will yes, even Satan. Satan chose to rebel against God. Eve & Adam had a choice. Serve God who gave you everything or disobey Him & face death. They knew the rules. Eve even told Satan the result,when he was placing doubt in her mind. Satan knew exactly what he was doing. Adam & Eve were just plain stupid! The only contact with intelligent life up to this point was with God. They knew he caused their existance, yet they chose to disobey, which does make them just as responsible for death as Satan. God made the law, if He is righteous he could not break his own law. By laying a simple restriction on them he could see if they would choose to be obedient.What if God did away with Satan before Satan caused this to happen? What would that prove to the other angels? He has to allow Satan to carry on through his course so that all creation, both mankind & angels know that only God's way of rule is best.As for God knowing everything, yes he has that ability IF he chooses to use it. Would we really have free will & control of our lives if he chooses the outcome before we make decisions? The bible says we have free will. If he chose to foresee the outcome of Adam & Eve after he had created them, again all the angels were watching. If he chose to know they would sin, what would he tell the angels? I had to do away with the humans because they were GOING to sin? Ridiculous.Overall to blame God, he created everything...so if you look at it that subjectively...I guess one could say that it is his fault. But I choose to look at his righteous qualities & hope that one day he will do away with Satan as promised & only those who wish to worship him as Adam & Eve had the opportunity to do will be in existence as he had originally purposed.

I love reading these dicussions ( I use the term loosely). The ignorence involved in the pro-religous aruments never ceases to amaze. The majority of the anti-regilous arguments are logical and use proof and fact while the pro-relogion camp uses threats, half truths and material from one book in an attempt to prove that book. Science and free thought brought us flight, medicine, exploration, and freedom. Religon brings fear, mistrust, hatred and the stagnation of society. I don't need to argue, I simply need to discover ever more, untill you no longer have a margin to stand in.

God sent his only son to die... this just proves that hes a sick mother fucker!

its not just who god killed anymore cuz that arguement wont win any battles.

why dont we count all the people that have been killed IN GODS NAME. the religious extreamist who believe gay people are the crusty ass flakes of society are the ones god should be laying the smack down on. this is not thinning the herd. this is giving the retarded kid a sharp fork and making him laugh so he stabs his eye over and over again for amusement!

screw religion, I'll make my piece with whatever deity there is if there is when I die.

No amount of knowledge will ever eliminate the basic human need to fear. This is why religion exists; this is why Man created God. Man's capacity to question is the root of both science and religion, and who is to say what is right and wrong? Religion portends to do so without the benefit of logic, horribly misusing the word "faith" in the process. But the fallibility of science is readily provable (as all things scientific should be), for did we not just decide that Pluto is no longer a planet? How long did you YOURSELF believe that to be true? And *POOF* gone. Not a planet at all.

I just wish you people would take a step back once and a while and look at this for what it is. This is how people deal with life. The religious zealots, the atheist scientists, the long snappers, the coxswains, the guy who painted my fence, lawyers, girl scouts, the whole lot of them. No one really knows anything, but if everyone can just relax and be cool, no one has to get hurt.

And yet "holy" leaders use the bible to justify killing all of the time. How many "holy wars" have there been throughout history? The crusades, the inquisition, world war II, how many others were there? People use the bible to justify killing one another on a regular basis. I have had people tell me that without the bible and religious radicles people would find some other reason to kill each other. They may be right, but to date, religion and faith based causes have claimed more lives than any other cause of death. That includes natural disasters.

According to the Bible, specifically I Corinthians 15, death itself came into the world because of sin (the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden). The great message of the Bible, however, is that God sent his only son, Jesus, to die on a cross and in doing so pay the debt of the world's sins (Philippians 2:7-9, and everyone's favorite, John 3:16). 3:54 PM

If you read genesis, nowhere does it mention that the serpent is the devil at all. Therefore, Satan is not responsible for Adam and Eve's sin, they and the serpent (which is just considered to be the most intelligent of the animals in eden) are.

Lol, it's true about everything how ALOT of people KILLED and DIED in the name of GOD. Look at Hitler. He killed the Jews cause they worshipped GOD. The Crusades for the HOLY LAND were so idiotic at how the Catholic churches kept saying that they needed to take the HOLY LAND back from the Muslims who HAD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

I wish this world would be without a God or a Higher Being, but that wouldn't make the world all the more interesting wouldn't it?

Lol, sadly, I think that killing and dying in the name of GOD is a bunch of bull. What if I went around, killing people, such as gays, lesbians, and any other religion, and saying that it's in the name of GOD?! Wouldn't that make the ENTIRE WORLD question my actions? Who WOULD back me up then? Would the churches support my actions? ROFL, I'd probably only be backed by those extremists and so forth, and condemned by the entire world. And that's fucking social SUICIDE!

GOD is just a sinner like EVERY ONE OF US. He ain't perfect, heck, heaven probably isn't even perfect either. In a perfect world, there are LIES. If GOD doesn't want us to kill, then why did people kill and die in HIS name? Why use a retarded excuse?

To me, I think Satan is a SANE being. He atleast had the ability to REBEL against GOD since GOD was probably a TYRANT.

You people talk about god and satan as if they were real, and then you talk about how wrong everyone else is about them, then everyone giggles. Is that how this game works? Does anyone really give shit about what is being said here? I mean, if you're just going to masturbate, there is some wicked awesome porn a few clicks away. Thus, I'll be on my way.

come on guys?!!!!! think outside of this box.... the bible was put together by some control freaks after the break down of the roman empire to control the masses.... and as for the old testment its part of the jewish levites control efforts--- god doesnt think like us more than likely (and put in the most simple terms)"god" is just a mass of energy. we are part of that energy and we have more power than we realize, just as we dont use all our brain, we also dont utilize all or abilities.

Is God or Satan responsible for the invention of porn? I mean, certainly it is lascivious and lustful in nature, which would lead one to believe that it falls in the realms of Satan, that sly old coot. But wait! It cannot be denied that really good porn, and I mean REALLY good porn, is so great that it can only come from God himself. Maybe porn was the project they were working on when they had the big spat that made God create Hell and put Satan in it. Either way, porn sure is awesome.

Ah, yes. The porn link. That brings this entire discussion back around to the original issue of the number of people killed by God and Satan. Once you take porn into account, it seems that God has, indeed, killed more people than Satan, but Satan has been doing almost all the stabbin'. Cheers to you, porn lover. You do the work of two gods!

The Bible equals the modern day media, ie CNN. As such, is it really the word of God, or just some good old boys wanting to profit off the masses. Mayhap, Satan didn't rally people up for the Crusades (modern or medival) but I bet you he had to expand hell.

People are tools. Free will gives us the opportunity to work for one thing or another. That's not a bad thing. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

We all take the dirt nap.

Language is nothing but a cell, limiting the range of experience. A billboard if you will. Crude and efficient.History is written by the winners. There for those who care to read it.

The winners died too.

Its only courtious to live and let live. To not obstruct anyones path. Everyone is potentially anyone. I can't imagine you'd want me to obstruct you forever. So don't kill me. Those who did not obstruct died.

Those who did obstruct died too.

Everything dies. Good or bad. Caused by good or bad.Personal experience is all we ALL have to offer to this world.

Those books you read, They will live well beyond us on their own merit. Whether its CNN or the bible, its hearsay. And its all edited. what you decide to do in this world gives imediate results. Take your results to those you trust, and who trust you.

I think it's cute though, that everyone's so consumed with god and satan's role in death. Like god and/or satan are like over-ambitious stage mothers for death.

Everybodys got a job to do. Just let death do its job, and it'll let everybody (and god and satan) do theirs.

Don't be so scared of death. For the god fearin', it only brings them one step closer to their big goal. For the non-fearin'... finally, some peace and quiet!

Have you ever thought something so hard that you would never accept another opinion on that issue... but only in few seconds there is your point of view demolished before your eyes making space for another soooo completely different..... That’s why I won’t ever say that I don’t believe in god..... But neither I do.

As far as killing in the name of God goes, my personal belief (this exempts me from any criticism because I am not binding this on anyone else :o0 ) is that a post-messianic Christian is to win others to his cause through peaceful means. For example, if someone breaks into my house to harm my family, as a Christian, my priority should be to try to win that individual over to my cause peacefully. (I can't honestly say that would be my reaction) While I am well within my civil rights to kill them the moment they step through my door, Christ's example dictates that I should love this person enough to prefer his safety over my own or my family's.

Through Bible history, God has chosen his people to wipe out entire races in his name, but Christ came to fulfill the promise of peace. At the same time, he acknowledged that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. This indicates that he knew Christianity would bring strife, even within the family.

On the subject of fact verses fiction, several have stated that science disproves the Bible, yet I have not seen a single fact quoted that does so. The Bible has proven science, however, in that Job understood that the Earth was suspended on nothing and that it was "round" (okay we know its a spherical elipsis). These fact were not scientifically discovered in Job's time. David understood ocean currents. This also was not yet scientifically known.

If you want facts, archeology is the Bible's best friend. Even the hardest atheist should be able to see the historical accuracy of the Old Testament if nothing else. Even if you don't believe in God, the historical accuracy is impressive.

There can be no doubt that religion is a control mechanism, and many organizations use it as a tool for profit. I agree that God's intention has been perverted my miscreants looking for a quick dollar or for control over weaker individuals. I ask that you not blame God or Christians for this, but to lay the blame at the feet of those who have perverted what I believe is the purpose for man. The ideas promoted by Christianity are profitable, if followed, but few there are who find the narrow path.

Please show me what tenant of Christianity is negative. What concept or law of Christianity is harmful? Tell me where the negativity is in following the beliefs of Christianity. If you believe it to be a religion of ignorance, show me what negative consequences come from following it.

Does the distaste of Christianity come from the fact that we cannot do whatever we want? Does peace come without restraint and self-control?

One person stated that a Christian would not change their mind even if you laid out the non-existance of God on paper. This person criticized others for not using facts, while using none of their own.I welcome an explanation with facts which I have yet to see from those touting said facts.

I love you as a person, even if I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean I won't defend my position.

Sorry guys. I just realized I'm bringing the room down. I just wanted to say that not all Christians are brainwashed non-thinking zombies. Some of us have challenged our own beliefs and found them justified, and we would like to be given the credit for doing so.

"That is because ALL organized religions were at one point fabricated to control people with laws and rules -- including laying out punishments for this world and the one "beyond".

It was used as a deterrent for would-be criminals."

Organized religion is and always will be a way for the people in power to control those who are not. Especially during the time the Bible was written, natural disasters would have been explained by the divine. People would have made claims such as "God gave me these ten commandments, we all must follow them." They didn't have science to explain events such as earthquakes or volcanic eruptions. People will believe anything if they don't have an explanation for it. The people in positions of power during biblical times knew this. They used this knowledge. The fact that we have free will means that people could easily make up a god in order to control the weak-minded.

I don't have any solid proof that a god or gods does not exist, but I have enough circumstantial proof to back it up in my own mind. And anyhow, ANY god that uses fear to control (something only men would do, in my opinion) is not a god I want to worship, even if he does exist. The $*@&$@ gave us free will? We can do whatever we want as long as He says we can.

If christians believe in a God they can't prove exists and are brain washed zombies that reject science for doing so..... Then atheists are guilty of the same ignorance for not believeing in a God that they can't prove does not exist.

Whether you believe in God or not your beleifs require faith. Faith is believing in what you can't prove.

For me, mundane noodle, it's not so much that I can disprove the existence of a god or gods, but that I cannot prove it. I'm not an atheist, per se, but I am an agnostic with atheistic leanings.

I remember reading a lot of Ayn Rand in high school, and I was a devout follower of her teachings. For those not familiar with Objectivism, her philosophy, she teaches that reality is an objective entity, a "thing" that exists independent of our perceptions and interpretations. (Someone had the tag "noumenon" a while back--this should be right up your alley. :) ) So there either is or isn't a god. There either is or isn't an apple on the table. There either is or isn't a lit cigarette in my mouth, whether or not anyone perceives it, whether or not it is tangible.

She teaches that the only way to correctly interpret reality, an object, was with reason. Logical, rational thought processes and a critical eye are the keys to understanding reality, which is the key to making decisions in the world and actively living life correctly (which she does not think is subjective, either).

But the one thing she never accomplished in her philosophy was to prove that reality exists. The flaw in Rand's logic, in Objectivism, is that one cannot use reason to base one's entire philosophy on an assumption, namely, that reality exists. It seems like a ridiculous argument, but it's true. How can one know anything if one does not know that one knows? How can one know if one does not exist?

And Rand took it one step further, stating that even if we cannot ever know reality, it exists. That was the critical moment for me, trying to develop a rational philosophy in the world. Reading that contention made me aware that even Ayn Rand, the atheist, the cruel Objectivist and greatest proponent of reason, had faith. Hers was faith in an existant, though possibly unknowable reality. So every "objective" decision she makes is based on an assumed reality, based on faith in our senses and the powers of our minds to interpret reality, which is purely subjective.

That is why no rational argument can take place regarding supernatural beings. We must either make the assumption that our rational minds are capable of interpreting reality, or we must make the assumption that a god or gods exist. Either way, we've gotta have faith.

The comment above, however, which states: "atheists are guilty of the same ignorance for not believing in a God that they can't prove does not exist", is ridiculous, because it assumes that we must believe in everything whose existence we cannot disprove, which is most certainly irrational.

Which is why I'm agnostic, about God and about reality. I cannot willingly base my decisions on faith.

"An authentically religious attitude prevents man from presuming to judge God, accusing him of allowing poverty and failing to have compassion for his creatures. When people claim to build a case against God in defence of man, on whom can they depend when human activity proves powerless?" - Pope Benedict XVI, encyclical letter 'Deus Caritas Est'

"... no death or sin until Satan tempted Eve into eating the apple from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...." I wonder what it would be like with out that knowledge? Indiscriminate killings, fornicating with all types of creatures at any time and place. There would be no laws because we wouldn't know "what we should or shouldn't do". In short, since we have free will but no reasoning of good or evil, it would be anarchy as we act on our base urges.

If the writers of the Biblical texts believed that God was the cause of all those deaths (which we should assume they did, since they wrote it) then how were they able to retain the hope of salvation by the very God who seems to hungry for blood? Don’t we judge the winner of war, by the standard of those who have annihilated the most souls? So we then could declare God the winner. If we consider the Bible to be a narrative of the acts of God, and thus, a very one sided (pro-God) account, shouldn’t we entertain the idea that somewhere there is Satan’s account where God manages to only kill a few folks, while Satan manages to maim and kill millions. I mean, lets be fair.

Doesn't anyone relieze that Satan is the one who tempted Adam and Eve. He started sin. "For the wages of sin is death". All deaths are by his doing. God made a perfect world without death and Satan messed it up because he wished he could be God. So all 2 million deaths in the bible and every death through out the history of Earth is Satan's fault. God sent Jesus as a way for us to get eternal life back.

Have you guys ever thought of Satan being just a feeling of 'doubt'? Seriously, who wasn't born with doubt? It wasn't Satan who penetrated her mind and forced her to eat it. She doubted herself if she wanted to eat it or not. It's was a test of will and belief. Apparently, she didn't have both. =/

anon said: "Doesn't anyone relieze that Satan is the one who tempted Adam and Eve. He started sin. "For the wages of sin is death". All deaths are by his doing. God made a perfect world without death and Satan messed it up because he wished he could be God. So all 2 million deaths in the bible and every death through out the history of Earth is Satan's fault. God sent Jesus as a way for us to get eternal life back."

For the record: the Old testimant does not even show the existance of a devil, and the bibles written immediately after the death of jesus christ don't state it. The FIRST references to the devil do not come into play until the 9th century AD. There is, and never has been a reference to Satan as the serpent. The serpent stands on it's own. Any drawn conclusions based upon bibles today is irrelivant. I say this as BOTH a reverend AND an athiest. God did not make a perfect world. God made a world without knowledge of Good and Evil. That is not a perfect world. ANY ignorance prevents there being a chance of a perfect world. Science can't be a cover for atheism though. Science is the human exploration of the universe. It cannot prove anything right or wrong until we understand everything about it. And since we will never understand everything about it, it's a mute point. Also, the current version of the bible took form over 250 years after jesus's death. I'd love to see anyone live that long. This argument will never end. But simply put, whatever you believe nobody will comprimise in it. If there is a god, i'm wrong, so be it. But i'm not going to be doing a dance if i'm right.

Personally to whomever wrote the Peter Rabbit comment, that simply was the most amazing thing of a well versed arguement that has taken on here. Man created God, and God shaped men. Live with it.

To whoever wrote the comment about Ayn Rand, I think I love you. Rand got me through a strict Catholic high school, but let me down in college. Her idea of rational self-interest and the value of the ego sticks with me, though. The existence or nonexistence of God seems secondary to the definite existence of ourselves. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that I love you.

ok first, to whomever is posting about satan causing eve to eat the apple and so on. you are wrong. sorry but that was a serpent not satan. and in some circles, and i am included in this, the serpent is a dragon. why? because what other creature in history besides man could speak? not to mention the serpent was not a serpent until AFTER it was punished. then it's legs were taken away and it was forced to crawl the earth. which would tie into science in a crazy way if you connect dragons and dinosaurs together and assume that extinction of the dinosaurs came right before an abundance of snakes.

also the bible could very well be real, but it is NOT complete and it is NOT translated correctly. what version do use? king james? who the hell is he and what does he have to do with it. he knows nothing. that version is translated to make things easier to understand which really just causes half of the bible's true meaning to be lost. and don't get me started on the purpose for the bible. it may originally have been meant for good purposes but i agree with the previous post. it became a simple tool to mold men into dutiful sheep obeying their masters. note the obeyance of the men in the bible, and the absence of women. if the women aren't sluts, evil or giving birth (or barren) they simply aren't important enough to talk about. what message does this send?

as far as satan and god being good or bad i should point out that i have studied and looked into many religions and christianity is the ONLY one i have found so far that says that one is good and one is not. everyone else believes that man TRULY is in their god's image, for their gods have moods and feeling just as we do. their gods are all things and intentions at the same time.

and yes i do personally know a satanist. there are different types i gather. there are some that literally worship the devil but they are few and far between. the most popular thing seems to be the levey satanism. where they really do worship themselves. it sounds alot like that crazy scientology where they believe that human beings are gods. only they are more selfish. i would also like to point out that christianity states the same thing. for they tell us that god/jesus is inside everyone of us.

in short, science, christianity, new age beliefs, and all other religions can be tied together if you think about. it's all just remakes of the same movie.

God saved those people...He didn't kill them...He saved them from people like you,who dont see the big picture which is : People who die with clear soul,are taken to God , the other ones to the satan...

ok, who says dying is such a bad thing... I mean, if Christians believe that you move to a better, more "perfect" place, then wouldn't God just be doing us a favor? Maybe thats the whole point... Everyone just goes thru life on Earth to fill a certain purpose, then once that purpose is fulfilled, there is no need to remain is such a crappy place compared the "perfect" Heaven. So he lets us die, and travel to the place that would make us happy forever.

As someone mentioned a while ago, there is a difference between killing, and murdering...

ALAN HAVLICK SAID,I BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST THE SON OF GOD WHO DIED FOR MY SINS AND WAS RAISED FROM DEATH TO LIVE AGIAN WITH GOD,I HAVE EXAMINED ALL THE RELIGIONS AND HAVE LISTENED AS GOD WAS CAREFULLY AND COMPLETELY DISPROVEN BY WISE MEN AND UNBELIEVERS YET I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE,IF I AM WRONG I LOSE NOTHING IF YOU ARE WRONG.... AND I DONT CARE IF THE NUMBER IS INFINITY TO ZILCH, AGIAN, I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE.

Notice how the Christian responses are all some variant of "It's OK for God to kill because [insert their preferred justification here]"

Translation: God is above the law. Since any moral code worthy of the name ought to rule out murder and torture at the very least, and the Biblical deity is portrayed doing both on a massive scale, and the latter for eternity, it is clear that God cannot be considered morally "good" in any sense.

The very best that could be said for him is that he is an amoral entity, like a hurricane or the Borg--simply Power unconstrained by ethics or even unaware of it. However, his repeated claims of "righteousness" seems to rule that out.

Since eternal torture would be unacceptable to a being possesssed of even minimal levels of empathy, we are left with no choice but to consider him... >pinky finger to corner of mouth< ...Eeeevil.

Ahh religion, the fun we have. The system is pointless, it is far too binary to work. God creates everything and rules it all in omnipotence. Yes? Lest you negate the all knowing, all seeing and all powerful god. And yet sets up a system with an equaly as influencial source of "Absolute" evil Satan, now with all this in mind, he then gives his creations the angels no free will, they are his servants in the Kingdom of Heaven and the race of man freewill on earth. Obviously the kingdom of heaven is modeled on the kingdoms of earth from that time period, an entire class of servants (angels) and the greater population (men) who serve one king (god) who appoints an angel or another creation of his (satan) to a position of great power. For some unknown reason god decides to give us freewill and yet people that believe in god say he has a plan for everyone. We either follow him and live our life according to the will of god or we burn in hell at the descretion of gods creation satan the barron of hell. AN ultimatum is cast down or you are cast down, use your freewill to conform to god's will or burn in hell. Still if god is all powerful he then would be able to be the creator, temptor and punisher of the wicked. He doesn't need the servant satan in the mix, he is perfectly capable of doing satan's job himself. Yet he has persisted in creating and allowing to exist a polar opposite who's only function is to temp men away from god and rule their souls in the afterlife. aside from the fact that this ultimately makes satan pointless and unnecessary it does help people define their lives through dichotomy. black and white make the world easier to deal with, simplifying the struggle of life with a balanced good and evil system with no room for grey area. There are very few absolutes most of it is random interpretation. what is moral is up to you, or you can just give up deciding for yourself and let god or the alleged word of god direct you. Surrender to the will of an unseen unpresent force and become a conscript. or stand alone

The afterlife is a whole other subject for debate later, when we get down to the soul among other things.

So what is the point? If God is the righteous and holy being that he claims to be in the Bible and CREATED all things, he has the right to pronounce judgement upon his creation. Actually, it is apparent that, in the light of the sin of all me, he has "elected" a small number to eternal life and doomed the rest of ALL MEN to destruction. That 's from the view of the Bible, of course.

Anonymous said... Satan cannot take lives on earth without God's permission. Be thankful that he doesn't let him out for a free for all.

Where do you get that? Remember when he tempted Jesus with promises of giving him the whole earth? Why didn't Jesus question his ability to do that? The only possible reason is that he knew Satan could deliver. That amount of power can _definetly_ kill people without God's permission. Which leads to the question, why did God let the supposed epitamy of evil run the kingdoms of the world? As for the idea that it's OK for God to kill people because dying might not be bad if that's so why does he use it as punishment?

well, satan is said to be the great deceiver. He destroys masses by way of corrpution. God (by what the bible is trying to teach) is trying to purify the earth of sin and satans influence. This is why he has killed so many. To play the devils advocate (clever termonology given the subject) I must say that god is seen as the evil and evil as the righteous as well. This is why Lucifer was cast from heaven. Satans view is one of a perverbial moses, liberating us from god tyranny. So the whole subject is reletive, God trys to remove sin and satan, satan trys to overthrow an infaulable god. Who is actually righteous is up to opinion. But the Old Testament's "god" was vengeful it was nothing but "Smite this, burn that, kill them, save some of them, kill some more" once the new testement comes, its all about a peaceful loveing god and jesus, etc. So This proves that the bible is a book of lessons. First it was Fear God. He is protecting you, but you will be punished if you go astray. Then once jesus came into the picture he (or the writers of the scripture used in the modern bible) preached of a loving god, who will forgive you for your trespasses. The killing by god himself ends with the birth of his only son. On satans behalf one should read PARADISE LOST because there is whole new rant coming from that part of literature. Just be reminded that the bible isn't absolute. Many scriptures were not included, gnostic texts were burned even though they were key to inter-religious understanding, Non of the gospels used in the bible have an original copy (they are all interpretaions and translations, and there can be more than one copy per gospel/spripture and most times there are key inconsistancies between those copies) Well that is my trivial rant. don't listen to the bible like its set in stone, it has helpful lessons for life, but remember that the thing that can really lead you through spiritual and physical life is your own mind. Learn your lessons, but don't forget to think for yourself from time to time. Peace

I might say that "God" and "Satan" don't exist, therefore the discussion is moot. But then, I've spent too many hours arguing about the Feanorians in Tolkien's Silmarillion to ever use that argument. :)

But really... the God of the Christian Bible is quite violent. And as to those who say that Satan "kills people" by making them go to hell, I'll quote Mark Twain: "Heaven for the climate, hell for the company."

Consider this... Good and evil are parallel concepts just like light and dark or life and death. One can not exist without the other. If God did create everything then He created both good and evil and must possess both of these qualities in order to truly understand them. So to think of God as purely good when He created everything (including Satan) lacks any logic at all.

There is no such thing as death to the believer's soul. The flesh dies but the soul does not. It is man that kills. Man kills his own soul when he does not believe truly in God. The Holy Bible is a book written by man to tell how Christians should live for a more moral life. There is no human sacrifices for believers. Thou shalt not kill is an order given as a commandment for us to follow. It also says to fear God for He is more powerful than Satan who He cast down. Why should we not fear God? Yes, he can kill us...but our soul remains. Anyone can kill a Christian but can they stop our soul from coming back to haunt them who don't believe?

Something to consider is that a lot those people weren't innocent. Read up on Soddom and Gamorah. There weren't even 10 good people in those two cities. Read why God sent Noah's flood. The people on the earth were wicked. Also, with the fiery serpents, God made a serpent of brass that could be looked at so the people bit wouldn't die.

Then as long as we are going to do the wheels within wheels, whose fault is it that death came into the word? People disobyed God, which brought death into the world. Who tricked people into disobeying God? Satan.

Why is it that if a man were to stand amongst a crowd and start giving his opinion on life in a loud and concise manner, he would be regarded as a mad man? I am speaking of pure opinion based on what the senses can intake, and what the brain makes of this input. Or better yet, why is man afraid to enact such a show? Is it because he is afraid that his opinion won’t be able to compete with that of the people in the crowd? Is he afraid that he will be jeered at? Or perhaps he fears rejection or even worse, physical harm. Or maybe is he afraid that the people might actually respond, and come to the general consensus that there is much humans don’t know, and might never know.To be a Christian means to follow Christ and accept him as savior, thus erasing one’s sins. This begs the question, why would one care if his sins were erased, seeing that they have already happened. (and, can you erase history?) Or, if one decided that since he felt bad after making fun of Cousin Sue, he wouldn’t do that anymore, therefore learning from his mistake/sin??? Why do we need our sins to be erased? So we won’t go to Hell? Or so we will finally be able to meet God? And why do other people care so much that we make it to heaven? So it won’t appear so much as a selfish enterprise? Let us ponder this for a moment…we follow religion because it promises a prize. Isn’t that pure selfishness to spend so much time and effort (well some folks anyway) into something that promises eternal bliss for ME? If Jesus said, “accept Me into your heart and repent of your sins and I will allow one random person into heaven” (which would actually be a sacrifice, the most selfless action possible) how many people would still be Christians? To be guaranteed eternal life, every person would have to accept Christ in order to have the concrete assuredness of eternal life. And the chances of that are next to 0. Fear. As it was mentioned earlier in this blog, we are all fearful. Fear is what drives us to religion. Where does fear come from? Well we become fearful when something is looming on the horizon that is either threatening us in a way we know about or we don’t know what it is, hence causing fear. Does fear serve a good purpose? Of course it does! It allows the protection of our personal well being. Which is why it is the perfect tool for religion. Does the afterlife fall under one of the two categories for fear? Well, either we believe that something bad might happen, i.e. Hell, or we think of all the things that might happen, which actually causes more fear, because it actually greatly increases in number the bad things that could happen after we die (aside from dying) To anyone who might chance upon this – I know that these thoughts are slightly random and it might be a little hard to follow my train of thought and I apologize for that. To sum up my thoughts on humans – Man is selfish, fearful, and knows very little! If he weren’t selfish he wouldn’t care what happened after he died. He would just accept it.

Not personally going to argue with Christianity itself, however as for the bible....

Fact is the bible was written and later editted by the Real Establishment of the time, the church. Its main purpose was to give the masses a reason to live with how they were forced to live, without rebellion, whilst continueing to work diligently for the authorities. And since its creation it has been translated multiple times from greek to finally english, further muddying the waters with many different translators interpretations of the language.

Whether you believe in Christianity or not, the fact remains that the original tenents of the religion are admirable and gentle. Its a shame that the religious book has been misused to "Legalise" some of the greatest atrocities ever seen.

the answer is simple, satan doesnt actually kill he has no power over us to kill, god is the creator of all. god certainly has his values and reasons for doing what he does, such as the twin towers, its incredibally sad and tradgic that so many people had to die, but according to the bible they were people without the word of god on their foreheads, this is true as the world trade center was major trading source, and it was full of corrupt people, that were dealing with unfair trade, not everyboday died, just the ones that didnt believe in god, there were people who actually survived and pulled out alive from the rubble, everyone says that day was when america woke up, the rest of the world needs to wake up, watch the world trade center movie to underrstand this clearer and why we are all here and how we have changed since the corrupted internet and gansta rap, satanism and bad media. its amazing how we all have to suffer a great loss, trauma or tradgedy before we all learn, which is sad, but hey we are only human, if we were perfect we wud be god.

someone mentioned the tsunami, further up the page shame i cant reply directly, but if you ask me tsunami was not a natural disaster at all, i thought it was a bomb by a goverment which one im not completely sure, altough i have my suspicions with technology nowadays you are 99% proptected from natural desasters with a warning. there was no warning a earth quake at sea, or a tsunami that size should have been noticed.

Who created more people, God or Satan? Last I checked God created everyone, including the terrible spellers on this site. Satan didn't create anyone. So as far as life goes it's God everything, Satan nothing. God even created Satan, and is going to destroy him. Does this make God good because he created all life? or bad because He decreed death, however it happens? Actually outside of God how do you call anything 'good?' He created 'good' and 'evil.' Good is what he tells us to do, bad is what he tells us not to do. Its that simple. All we can say about good and bad outside of God is that we like something and don't like something else. Why is it that what some illiterate blogger likes becomes 'good' and what he/she doesn't like is 'bad.' Go learn something then write about it instead of going on pathetic, self-interested opinions based on perverted ideas.

While I do not argue the fact that you have brought up a valid point. The supportive reasoning lies in the nature of God's character and governing laws of justice.

(Proverbs 14:11-12) - The house of the WICKED SHALL BE OVERTHROWN: but the tabernacle of the UPRIGHT SHALL FLOURISH. 12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

God never allowed destruction to come upon anyone who stood in righteousness. If a person fails to adhere to upright counsel, their way is bound to lead to their own corruption. A muderer believes his or her actions is the solution to their situation. To a rapist it seems right to fulfil their personal fantasy than to respect the life and privacy of their victim. To the drug dealer, it seems right to make a fortune at the expense of their customer's life shattering. There are laws that govern all of these actions, and failure to comply leads to severe measures. Likewise it is so in the bible as it is now.

The foundation of Christianity is based on the fact that under the new covenant (new testament), we too are bound for death until we come into agreement with the Lord that what we held to be correct is actually wrong. By repenting of our error (and not proudly saying we have no error), we escape the death associated with our wrong by Jesus taking the penalty upon himself. We don't deserve it, but it is available to all who will surrender to the Savior - Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23 reminds us that we all have sinned. Romans 6:23 helps us to understand that death is associated with sin. (Sin is literally the pathway to death). The good news is that Romans 5:8 spells out the demonstration of His love for us in spite of our sinfulness. Just like those He is accused of killing were given warning first (which was a demonstration of His love), He does the same for us today. To ignore it means we are bound for eternal death.

Romans 10:9-13 says "...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation [being saved from the oncoming death]. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

His Word speaks for Himself. To isolate PASSAGES (removing them from their context) is bound to lead to misinterpretation. The ultimate point is... Who will receive your worship.... Satan or God? All of us will yield to one or the other-

To isolate passages? Oh, that's rich! Once again, the Christian can be a literalist when it is advantageous to be so, and metaphorical or allegorical when that is the better way to go, too! Sorry, Charlie - can't have it both ways. Yeshua (Iesous/Jesus) told the Jews their father was the Devil, did he not? Yeshua told the Jews their father was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, did he not? Yeshua told the Jews that their father spoke no truth and that there was no truth in him, did he not? Now then, if you have spent much time in the Old Testament before sashaying on over to the four gospels, who is it that IS THE FATHER OF THE JEWS? Yehovah/Yahweh, the LORD God of Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) IS the god of this world. The LORD (Yahweh) has a name, has been seen by many men, has walked the earth, got into a good 'ole wrestling match with a dude, argued back and forth over wether or not some lady was too old to have a baby or not, landed in a 'glory of the LORD craft' multiple times, and put fear into the minds of his chosen which today is preached by the religions of this world as "God's holiness!" Give me a break, friend! Behold! The greatest deception of mankind! The "God" worshipped in all the churches, preached about on Christian television, sung about in all the cathedrals, is the Devil and the saw-tawn (it's not a name)! Yeshua said to pray in secret - not openly! Yeshua said to give to the needy in secret - not openly with a tax credit form! Yeshua (and others) said that the TRUE God, the One and the True Light, HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN, HAS NEVER BEEN HEARD! Get a clue, my dearly deceived friend. Yahweh goes around boasting that he is god and there is none other besides him. Yahweh (the LORD) goes around saying its a really bad thing to burn your children sacrificially, yet is a complete hypocrite throughout the whole Abraham and Jephthah ordeals. Yehovah proclaims the superiority of men over women, but Yeshua proclaims that wisdom (Sophia) is justified by ALL HER CHILDREN! And, AND, keep in mind that the Christ was not "crucified" because of some glorious plan of salvation of the LORD God of Israel. The Man from Galilee was 'hung on a cross' because that is precisely what Yehovah said to do with a prophet, a dreamer, and someone who comes amongst the people to turn their attention from Yahweh himself! The Christ was 'hung on a cross' for preaching and teaching against the LORD.

If your definition of being "Damned" equates to my no longer being in covenant with the LORD God/Yahweh who walked the earth, and who told his "chosen" to kill, steal and destroy, who commanded a man to sacrificially burn his son and made an oath/pact with another man that led to the sacrificial burning of that man's daughter, who repeatedly slays and kills human beings, who boasts and roars that he is the only god, who manipulates societies and communities against one another, then . . . I COMPLETELY EMBRACE BEING "DAMNED" as you put it.

Frankly, the freedom, wisdom, direction and synchronicity that I am enjoying since saying "see ya!" to evangelical Christianity is, well . . . beyond what I can say here in this format.

Blessings in the True Light, to all who are dead, blind, or asleep in the tomb of their faith.

Of course, it was man that wrote all this. And most of that death WAS caused by nature. So maybe this is all just a bunch of ignorance? Never follow those who sell fear. Never believe in those that create dependence. And never pay head to those who seek to anger. All of this is ignorance. For God gave us free will not to depend on what another man says but to find the divine within ourselves. The closer we walk to divinity, the more light that shines on us. And I have never found that benevolent force to be at all vengeful or even violent. We sew our own seeds in this world. The game of life is set up for us to see our true selves. Eventually, through our own actions, through creating our own pain, we turn another way to experience grace and view glory.

If GOD is real... -He can do _anything_ HE wants and nobody can question HIM.-HE can KILL all of us in one instant if HE chooses to... whether we like it or not.-We can call HIM evil, bad, manipulator, tyrant, whatever... but in the end, HE has the final say.

If GOD is NOT real...-why is the earth a suitable place for us to live? When I became conscious of my environment -it's already there.. i did not create the earth and everything but they are there in "working condition" -at least so we are alive

If GOD is real..-He cannot be mocked. Man reaps what he sows.

If anyone of you mocking what people believe about God can create something as great as the universe... let him prove himself... if you say "to see is to believe"... show us all how great you are that we might believe in you.

If you want those who believe in GOD to prove He is real.. "open your eyes"... it's already there, you just don't want to accept it.

One thing that bugs me is that if there is the Lord, why does he not make himself more manifest, more expicit?

Why must we worship a being who has retreated from us?

I understand that God's appeared to many through the gency of voice, fire and angelic vision, yet why must we always wonder for proof of physical on sensible explanation?

Albeit the fact that seven generations after creation the Earth's inhabitants started to transgress in total ignorance of the allegded knowledge about God, does that suggest that a later generation like us nears a similar fate?

Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Christianity, Orthodoxy, and Islam. All of the world's major religions originate from, and are in covenant with, a superior being whose name is Yawweh, Yehovah, Allah, or as ignorant Christians call him, "LORD." Of course, LORD is nothing more than a middle-English replacement for YHWH. People of the world, Gnosticism and Paganism lost to literalist Christianity and the political power mongers of the Roman Church. Jewish scribes rewrote the New Testament gospels in order to make them appear as if Yeshua (Iesous/Jesus) is sent by Yahweh, the LORD, with a message of "forgiveness." However, with your eyes open and without the fog of religious dogma, one can clearly discern that Yeshua's message is one of freedom from Yahweh, the LORD God of Israel. Further, the Jews crucify Yeshua because that is precisely what Yehovah told them to do; that if a dreamer, a prophet, and one who performs signs comes into their midst and tells them of another "god," they (the Jews) are to stone/kill that messenger. Read through John; the Jews are repeatedly trying to catch Yeshua and stone him. So, with the rewrite in hand, the enlightened man is magically transformed into the, "Son of God (Yahweh)." How very clever, but how incredibly manipulative.

Over and over again, Yeshua makes it clear that his Father is unknown, unseen, and unheard of by mankind. Well then, just who in the world is it that WAS known, WAS seen, and WAS heard of by the "chosen people" of the LORD? In the Old Testament, Yehovah walks about with violent fits of rage, orders his people to kill, steal and destroy other societies and cultures, and is a complete hypocrite and sends or places a lying spirit upon people! Wake up already! Yeshua tells the Jews that their father - Yahweh, the LORD - is the devil! Yeshua tells the Jews that their father is a murderer and a liar! Wake up! Who is it that our Bibles clearly demonstrate to us that IS the "father of the Jews?" The "LORD GOd" of the Old Testament, that's who!

Yeshua said that the One who sent him is not one to kill human beings, is not the originator of "the Law," is not worshipped in the Temple, and is unknown to the human race. The LORD/Yahweh IS known, get it?

Yeshua wasn't hung on a cross as some sort of sickly, grotesque message of sacrifice in order to lead people to forgiveness and eternal life! How sick and deranged is that concept! Yeshua was killed for attempting to turn the Jews from their god - the devil - who is a superior being, but is clearly not THE SUPREME BEING.

My ways are not ur ways neither My thoughts ur thoughts. as high as the heaven is from the earth so are My ways from ur ways and my thoguhts from ur thoughts - taken from isaiah 55.

meaning what we think is unacceptable ont his is is acceptable to God and what we think is acceptable here is not To God. worldly thinking has been twisted since the fall of man so the way God works is unknown to us fully. "we know in part and we see in part". God is just and what He does is just. it's up to us whether we accept it or not.

It is not God's will for us to perish, but we perish because of lack of understanding. =)

Yeah... "thou shalt not kill" and "anyone who is so much as angry with a brother or sister is guilty of murder". Isn't that cool? ;)

And you can argue that God is violating His own rules. Or as someone said, God YHWH is the devil in disguise. Yet some may say that this is blasphemy.

However way we look at all these...And though so much can be said...

We only prove that we are restless beings trying to figure out the unknown.

Science knows much but science doesn't know it all.

We can be so intelligent and so logical from our own point of view but unless we come to that point of knowing all things... we are all subject to deception. But sadly... knowing that we might be deceiving and are being decieved hurts our pride.

And some can argue that it is God Himself who is deceiving us... Well, go ahead and say what you want! God, if He is real, is allowing us to say anything we want... at least we are sure of this if we are still alive right now and speaking whatever.

Again, I'll say, that unless we come to that point of knowing all things... we are all subject to deception. And sadly... knowing that we might be deceiving and are being decieved hurts our pride.

Many of us can't afford to stop until we know all truth.

But when will we know?

Many of us can't afford to have someone else dictate what we ought to believe because we are sure that other people also do not know all things.

Only by ourselves will we know if we have somehow encountered God who knows all things... if God is indeed real.

Only by ourselves will we know if God is indeed real.

May all our eyes be opened!

But someone may ask me: "How about you, are your eyes already opened?"I will say: I am sure that He will continue to reveal Himself to me despite all my weaknesses 'cause I seek Him, not myself, nor any man's approval.

To Rebecca, also, a promise was made that took priority over genetics. When she became pregnant by our one-of-a-kind ancestor, Isaac, and her babies were still innocent in the womb—incapable of good or bad—she received a special assurance from God. What God did in this case made it perfectly plain that his purpose is not a hit-or-miss thing dependent on what we do or don't do, but a sure thing determined by his decision, flowing steadily from his initiative. God told Rebecca, "The firstborn of your twins will take second place." Later that was turned into a stark epigram: "I loved Jacob; I hated Esau."

14-18Is that grounds for complaining that God is unfair? Not so fast, please. God told Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion." Compassion doesn't originate in our bleeding hearts or moral sweat, but in God's mercy. The same point was made when God said to Pharaoh, "I picked you as a bit player in this drama of my salvation power." All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill.

19Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?"

20-33Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right?

Romans 9 (The Message Translation)The only reason you question God is because you're blinded by your pride.

Well, there all very good points, but i think you should add this to the tally, what about all the people before the time of Jesus, my friends bible group said they all went to hell, how the hell are they suppose to know about god?, and i'm really surprised there wasn't an atheist civilization.

satan is just something that Christians use to explain all the bad things that happen because apparently their God doesn't do any of that bad shit...look through your so called bible and look at all of the horrible things your God does...you people who beleive are so ignorant that you will blindly follow anything that doesn't make any sense...open your eyes

Alternatively, you could argue that Satan was really in power then and has been for some time. Some of the strange and also not so strange theories tells us that God allowed Satan out for 1000 years in the Old Testament and 1000 years in the NT (which is still going on today), every now and again. They say that God did this because Satan and him and a bet going on that Satan could/couldn't turn everyone away from God. If God turned Satan down (or killed him), then the question of whether this could ever actually happen, would always be there. So God decided to try and prove him wrong. Satan has a set amount of time to fulfil this. They claim that nearly all religions were started by Satan such as Islam, Buddism, Judaism etc... so that people worship Satan, but think they are worshipping God, thus turning away from him. They say that Christianity is the only true religion, as that was the religion of the followers of Jesus. But most churhces are basically screwed in their chances of getting into heaven. Catholics murdered billions in hundreds of wars; Anglicans killed the Germans in WW2, etc... The only true religion left is Jehovah Witness. And as long as someone in the world belongs to this, then Satan loses. Now the theory goes that when Judgement Day comes, if God has won the bet then his 'true' people will live forever in heaven and the rest of us will spend our time not in hell, just dead. If he loses, then we will all be confined to the pits of a firey hell. It is said that when judgement day is close, Satan will have his sign on the beginning, middle and end of everything. So here's the freaky bit. Satan's sign is the number 6. And every object that you buy has a barcode on it. If you look at the middle, beginnig and end of every barcode, you will see two little lines, those lines represent the number six. SO is judgement day coming, or is it just a bizarre coincedence? You decide.

God only created Adam and Eve for the rest of mankind science did its work. so God is way more evil then Satan. But it could also be the other way around that means that Satan is actually the good guy and that God is evil. Because the bible was written by men it depends on what type of character these persons had(good or evil). this means that when an evil person wrote the bible god is actually evil aswell because in the eyes of the writter God is a good thing/person.

Think about this before you start defending your religion thats costed over billions of lives to become an accepted religion.