tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1757106041970218508..comments2015-03-03T17:08:51.086-06:00Comments on Althouse: "Turn It On"... turn on the Top 40 grunge recordings.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58530996429390654632008-07-18T06:56:00.000-05:002008-07-18T06:56:00.000-05:00somefeller: You wanted to see "Only Shallow" on th...somefeller: You wanted to see "Only Shallow" on the list -- <A HREF="http://jaltcoh.blogspot.com/2008/07/40-greatest-grunge-songs-35-31.html" REL="nofollow">here ya go.</A>John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25286484448085575462008-07-14T16:23:00.000-05:002008-07-14T16:23:00.000-05:00The real reason Smashing Pumpkins aren't "grunge" ...The real reason Smashing Pumpkins aren't "grunge" is that <I>they're not openly or secretly trying to be Melvins</I>. I don't see how you can be grunge unless you're Melvins-influenced.<BR/><BR/>Smashing Pumpkins was really more of a New Wave thing at the start, says La Internet. (And, seriously, compare with early Cure and tell me otherwise.)<BR/><BR/>I don't care if they don't want to be "defined by labels"; if we're going to say "X is grunge" or "X is the Nth best grunge song", we have to define the terms, and include or reject.<BR/><BR/>(Otherwise we end up with Jethro Tull as a "Heavy Metal" band, and that <I>will not stand</I>.<BR/><BR/>For my next trick, I'll prove that Birchville Cat Motel is synth-pop.)Sigivaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16152366541957466049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58370688585894106162008-07-12T17:56:00.000-05:002008-07-12T17:56:00.000-05:00Now, now, labels are obviously useful or you would...Now, now, labels are obviously useful or you would've called your post "the Top 40 recordings by artists from my youth that I've gathered together arbitrarily."<BR/><BR/>That may be true but it doesn't necessarily get the point across.<BR/><BR/>Beethoven was proto-Romantic. Classical early in his development but a driver of Romanticism. Debussy was Impressionist. Mahler was late Romantic.<BR/><BR/>This does not (and should not be considered to) describe their music in such a way as to completely encompass it. All it does is put them in a particular context.<BR/><BR/>That musicians hate to be labeled is hardly the point, and somewhat pretentious to boot.blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05430444326700437630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79403970509197627772008-07-12T17:40:00.000-05:002008-07-12T17:40:00.000-05:00Also, just to be clear, I see no basis for excludi...Also, just to be clear, I see no basis for excluding Alice in Chains or Smashing Pumpkins from any definition of grunge <I>even if</I> the labels mattered. Again: what is this based on? What's the musical difference between these bands and any other supposedly "grunge" band? If you're excluding AIC from your definition of "grunge," you're whittling it down to something so miniscule as to be meaningless. I mean, if that does refer to anything real (which I don't see how it does), can't we just say that that would be "grunge 1" in the dictionary, and the much more interesting, diverse range of music that I'm calling grunge would be "grunge 2"?John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87654692545683769202008-07-12T17:35:00.000-05:002008-07-12T17:35:00.000-05:00Oh, and of course I meant "to the point where peop...Oh, and of course I meant "to the point where people are saying that Tool and the Smashing Pumpkins aren't grunge."John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81481447527777380292008-07-12T17:34:00.000-05:002008-07-12T17:34:00.000-05:00As for "Only Shallow," well, I'm not going to reve...As for "Only Shallow," well, I'm not going to reveal anything on the list before it's posted, but I'll just say: <A HREF="jaltcoh.blogspot.com/search/label/grunge" REL="nofollow">keep checking in every Friday.</A>John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-43328696428853370752008-07-12T17:33:00.001-05:002008-07-12T17:33:00.001-05:00*wouldn't have written it*wouldn't have written <I>it</I>John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70378514758740416892008-07-12T17:33:00.000-05:002008-07-12T17:33:00.000-05:00somefeller: I don't think anything's "misplaced." ...somefeller: I don't think anything's "misplaced." Obviously, I meant what I wrote or else I wouldn't have written. Dissecting whether this or that is "grunge," to the point where people are saying that Tool and the Smashing Pumpkins, is antithetical to just about every interview with any band I've ever read. I've never seen a band interview where they wanted their music to be confined by labels. It's just a useful framework for making the list, but I'm becoming increasingly bored with the quibbling over whether the songs fit into the narrowest possible definition of grunge. If you want a list of songs that fit the narrow definition, I recommend making your own list and sending it to me. I'll link to any such lists, and we can see which ones make for more interesting listening.John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84681392476547998602008-07-12T15:11:00.000-05:002008-07-12T15:11:00.000-05:00Bobby could always say whatever he wanted in my ho...Bobby could always say whatever he wanted in my house. I was not afraid of words. They are just words. Just as long as he did not take our lord Jesus our saviors name in vain. But not everyone can do that.Bobby Meachum's Aunthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18395539662910616134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72423647380669241192008-07-12T11:02:00.000-05:002008-07-12T11:02:00.000-05:00One more thing, however. Your list better include...One more thing, however. Your list better include "Only Shallow" or some other selection from My Bloody Valentine's "Loveless" CD, or a very well-articulated reason for why that record isn't on the list. If it doesn't, my support for this project will turn to sharp opposition. :)somefellerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15013403004665789644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-76633829966380603032008-07-12T10:34:00.000-05:002008-07-12T10:34:00.000-05:00JAC, I'm pretty familiar with the work of Smashing...JAC, I'm pretty familiar with the work of Smashing Pumpkins, and you're right, they were very metal-influenced. In fact, I remember one contemporary review I read for "Siamese Dream" (I think it was in Spin) complaining that they had apparently been listening to too much Metallica. My point was simply that Smashing Pumpkins, while being one of the most important bands of the 90s alt-rock scene, often wasn't considered a grunge band per se by a lot of people who were into music in that era, any more than the Red Hot Chili Peppers were. And while I'd agree there wasn't some sort of master list of what was grunge and what wasn't (how could there be?), I do recall a lot of music journalists and fans debating what was a grunge band and what wasn't. At some points, it got to the level of point-scoring and nitpicking, kind of like a pop culture version of the "can anyone rightfully be called a neoconservative if they weren't a leftist student at City College in New York in the thirties and forties before they turned right?" debate. For that matter, with regard to another one of your examples, a lot of people didn't consider Alice in Chains to be a real grunge band, because they originally marketed themselves in the metal scene and their original fan base overlapped a lot with the West Coast metal scene and the type of people who liked to listen to a very non-grunge Seattle band - Queensryche. I remember articles to that effect around 1991-1993. I'm not saying that approach is a good one, and in fact I think it isn't. However, it is one that's there, with regard to what the grunge scene was in the 90s, vs. other music scenes of that era. <BR/><BR/>In any case, I thought I'd made it clear that I like what you are doing and that you're rightly focusing on the bigger musical and cultural picture of that era, and you're using the word "grunge" in a broad manner rather than the narrow way it often was used, and that's fine. I may be wrong here, but I'm detecting a little hostility here (i.e.: "THERE IS NO ANSWER. IT'S JUST MUSIC. ENJOY IT." and "You know what I remember? In every single interview with any band or musician, they'd always say they hate genre labels and people should just enjoy the music. If you disagree with that, you won't like my top 40 grunge list.") that seems a little misplaced, since I'm saying that the broad cultural zeitgeist approach that you seem to be employing is the right one to use, regardless of what label it is given.somefellerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15013403004665789644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81765045157641077132008-07-12T10:05:00.000-05:002008-07-12T10:05:00.000-05:00Most musical definitions of grunge I heard during ...<I>Most musical definitions of grunge I heard during that era (from what I recall) didn't include Smashing Pumpkins, because their music had a somewhat neo-psychedelic sound to it, even in its harder moments. Basically, their music didn't have enough obvious Black Sabbath or punk influences to make them a true grunge band.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not convinced. How are the heavy, screaming, power-chord-driven, drum-bashing choruses of Smashing Pumpkins different from those of Nirvana or Pearl Jam? Can you describe any particular difference based on musical elements? I don't see any. I would recommend giving another listen to Gish and Siamese Dream if you think they didn't have heavy-metal-inspired riffs. Oh, and Mellon Collie wasn't influenced by early heavy metal?! I wouldn't trust the musical opinion of anyone who thinks that. It's a lot more heavy metal than most post-Bleach Nirvana songs.<BR/><BR/>And I don't see your point about Smashing Pumpkins being "neo-psychedelic." For one thing, it's not so easy to distinguish between psychedelic and early heavy metal. Jimi Hendrix was as psychedelic as anyone, and I consider his music very continuous with heavy metal. Just because there are different terms (psychedelic vs. heavy metal, alternative vs. grunge) doesn't mean there are distinct entities. Does "psychedelic" mean flashy guitar solos? In that case, you'd need to say that Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, and AIC aren't grunge either. <BR/><BR/>Again: (1) it's fine with me if my list goes outside a narrow definition of grunge -- I'd be disappointed if it didn't. But (2) even if the question were what counts as the narrow definition, I don't see any basis for saying that one thing counts as "grunge" and another doesn't. It's not like "grunge" is some established academic term like the classical, romantic, and modern eras in classical music. <BR/><BR/>And even those aren't agreed on! Are Beethoven and Schubert classical or romantic? Are Debussy and Mahler romantic or modern? THERE IS NO ANSWER. IT'S JUST MUSIC. ENJOY IT. <BR/><BR/>You mention musical commentaries of the time. I read a lot of magazine articles, etc., about rock music at the time. I don't remember strict definitions of grunge. You know what I remember? In every single interview with any band or musician, they'd always say they hate genre labels and people should just enjoy the music. If you disagree with that, you won't like my top 40 grunge list.John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67480672394681622722008-07-12T00:38:00.000-05:002008-07-12T00:38:00.000-05:00Grunge, hmm. I like punk (in fact, I adore it), bu...Grunge, hmm. I like punk (in fact, I adore it), but whereas punk is anarchistic towards society, grunge is self-destructive.<BR/><BR/>I loved Nirvana, but I can't say it affected me as a genre.<BR/><BR/>(Simon, I can't believe your opinion of punk!)vbspurshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00992013640447117624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68808503512901192162008-07-11T20:18:00.000-05:002008-07-11T20:18:00.000-05:00Shameless self-promotion: our band was Steel Teeth...Shameless self-promotion: our band was <A HREF="http://steelteethband.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Steel Teeth</A>; we played from 1982 or 83 to 1990. Complete mp3s of selected songs are available at the link.Bill Whitehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17764579160852643673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90795600898699087312008-07-11T20:01:00.000-05:002008-07-11T20:01:00.000-05:00I still remember the moment at a Halloween party i...I still remember the moment at a Halloween party in 1991 when I first heard the opening chords of the first track on <I>Nevermind</I>. I was 25, single, flush with money from my first big job, and was just a few weeks from growing a goatee and wearing flannel & hiking boots :-)<BR/><BR/>The music really turned my head and I stayed inside to listen to a few more songs from the album, then I bought a copy the next day. I'd played guitar and bass in a band through the 80s that played a lot of original tunes ranging from bluegrass to punk, but I'd never heard that sort of exciting harmonic creativity from a band.Bill Whitehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17764579160852643673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57018461559542616672008-07-11T18:50:00.000-05:002008-07-11T18:50:00.000-05:00JAC says: Where are you getting your definition of...JAC says: <I>Where are you getting your definition of grunge from? Seems to me that a definition of grunge that excludes the heavier songs from early Smashing Pumpkins is just a plainly incorrect definition.</I><BR/><BR/>Most musical definitions of grunge I heard during that era (from what I recall) didn't include Smashing Pumpkins, because their music had a somewhat neo-psychedelic sound to it, even in its harder moments. Basically, their music didn't have enough obvious Black Sabbath or punk influences to make them a true grunge band. Again, that's from what I recall from the music commentary of that era, and I'd tend to agree. There was a different musical aesthetic between Smashing Pumpkins vs. Soundgarden, Nirvana, etc. Now, that may be the sort of "narrow definition of grunge" you are avoiding, but from a standpoint of musical style, that distinction does have its place. <BR/><BR/>But all those bands were all part of the same larger cultural zeitgeist, and that's what I think is key here and is what you are correctly pointing at.somefellerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15013403004665789644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11529502794857267142008-07-11T18:24:00.000-05:002008-07-11T18:24:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bobby Meachum's Aunthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18395539662910616134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67876832841798485392008-07-11T18:16:00.000-05:002008-07-11T18:16:00.000-05:00For purposes of this discussion, I'm thinking that...<I>For purposes of this discussion, I'm thinking that JAC is defining grunge in a pretty broad way, </I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I am purposely defining it very broadly to have an interesting list. The idea of a list of 40 songs where everything sounds exactly like some narrow definition of "grunge" sounds really boring to me. <BR/><BR/><I>so as to make it cover the whole early to mid 1990s harder alternative rock scene and culture. </I><BR/><BR/>Not really -- there's plenty of '90s alternative rock that I've specifically excluded from the list.<BR/><BR/><I>That's how one can include bands like the Flaming Lips and Smashing Pumpkins in the mix, because while they were definitely part of that culture, they weren't really grunge bands per se. </I><BR/><BR/>Where are you getting your definition of grunge from? <BR/><BR/>Seems to me that a definition of grunge that excludes the heavier songs from early Smashing Pumpkins is just a plainly incorrect definition.John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44149775776995019152008-07-11T17:58:00.000-05:002008-07-11T17:58:00.000-05:00For purposes of this discussion, I'm thinking that...For purposes of this discussion, I'm thinking that JAC is defining grunge in a pretty broad way, so as to make it cover the whole early to mid 1990s harder alternative rock scene and culture. That's how one can include bands like the Flaming Lips and Smashing Pumpkins in the mix, because while they were definitely part of that culture, they weren't really grunge bands per se. He could have called it a list of the Lollapolooza Generation or something like that, but just putting it all under the grunge label seems user-friendly.<BR/><BR/>With that being said, I think one thing is clear. The grunge era was the last great era of rock and roll, wherein rock culture and general popular culture were pretty much intertwined. I don't think one can say that about the anemic indie-rock scene, and the rise of everything else from hip-hop to mainstream country to electronica has eliminated rock music's ability to be the prime mover of youth culture.<BR/><BR/>One aside, during that era a friend of mine had a little catchphrase to make fun of those who were a little overly into the scene. He'd say "hey, slacker, how's the grunge?" as a little joke when someone would walk by in a little too much flannel. Well, I guess it was a lot more funny after a few drinks in 1992.somefellerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15013403004665789644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25066125185411154592008-07-11T17:54:00.000-05:002008-07-11T17:54:00.000-05:00Yo, Michael Bolten is fo'rizealmotherfucker.Yo, Michael Bolten is fo'rizeal<BR/>motherfucker.Dr Dre's Underpantshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10156828112434815213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-76069802602508029022008-07-11T16:19:00.000-05:002008-07-11T16:19:00.000-05:00Michael Bolton"I celebrate the guy's entire catalo...<I>Michael Bolton</I><BR/><BR/>"I celebrate the guy's entire catalogue."blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05430444326700437630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73573602706294786392008-07-11T16:14:00.000-05:002008-07-11T16:14:00.000-05:00Grunge was definitely important to me. I was 14 wh...Grunge was definitely important to me. I was 14 when <I>Nevermind</I> and <I>Ten</I> came out, and they both pretty much blew my mind. After that, it was a steady diet of Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Nirvana, and Pearl Jam. <BR/><BR/>Recall that the competition at the time was pop like Mariah Carey and Michael Bolton, and rock like Skid Row and Guns N' Roses. Grunge was a salvation.the Rising Juristhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05270130833565599688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77481548523565451442008-07-11T16:13:00.000-05:002008-07-11T16:13:00.000-05:00I enjoyed my brushes with the punk ethos in the 80...I enjoyed my brushes with the punk ethos in the 80's immensely, even while regretting that I was too old and too self aware to really go into the lifestyle whole hog.<BR/><BR/>But I never got into grunge, it was too ... heavy and murkey and all the things I'd always hated about rock (that punk in it's fire and bleach purified minimality usually sidestepped).michael farrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10232229721381140090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79989980087841824392008-07-11T15:17:00.000-05:002008-07-11T15:17:00.000-05:00Ah, yes, "real" is a code word for "something real...Ah, yes, "real" is a code word for "something really horrible that nobody in their right mind would seek out".<BR/><BR/>I like Simon's comments, though. They could've been made by a big band fan about rock 'n' roll. (And were!)blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05430444326700437630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-59011692975470070142008-07-11T15:02:00.000-05:002008-07-11T15:02:00.000-05:00Authentically authentic, what else?Authentically authentic, what else?ricpichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01321511130788764861noreply@blogger.com