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03:49:50 boring question sorry but does anyone have any thoughts about a good scheme book (available in dead tree) that will just about cover things for a beginner but also serve as a usual reference later? I'm using teach your scheme in fixnum days and and intro to scheme and its implementations at the moment. i've looked at the scheme Prog lang 3e online and it seems comprehensive but quite hard for a beginner
03:50:13 sicp
03:50:43 i have looked at that yes, but it seems to stray away from being a scheme book into being a computer science course that uses scheme
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03:51:15 i'm looking for something more focusing on the language itself that will also serve as a handy reference even when i have more experience
03:52:05 graspee: reference books usually don't make good introductions to a language, and vice versa.
03:52:28 why is it important to you that the introduction you start with, and the reference book for later, are the same book?
03:52:30 i realize that, yes, sorry. i thought there might be something though
03:52:48 because i'm quite hard up and these books are not that cheap
03:53:07 and yet i do prefer real books to reading on screens
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03:53:45 what's your current level of knowledge about programming in general? what languages do you know? how easily do you learn mathematical concepts, or do you prefer to avoid them?
03:54:03 my maths is shaky in some areas and just plain bad in others
03:54:09 answers to these questions will help determine which book is best for you.
03:54:28 i know c well, common lisp fairly well a while ago, prolog well but 15 years' ago.
03:54:54 well sorry let's say common lisp not that well and a long time ago
03:54:58 graspee: to be more concrete, do you know basic calculus, and do you find that a difficult subject?
03:55:09 i find it difficult yes
03:55:38 the maths that i do understand i find it easier to absorb when it's expressed as code rather than in mathematical symbols
03:55:52 okay, for introductions I can think of a couple of good books. "The Little Schemer" and "The Seasoned Schemer" are good books to start with..
03:56:29 and although I haven't looked at it myself, How to Design Programs is also recommended by some people I respect.
03:56:42 when i used to use CL i adored Paul graham's ansi common lisp book
03:56:56 if there were a scheme equiv. of that it would be ideal
03:57:03 for a reference book, "The Scheme Programming Language" by Dybvig is good.
03:57:15 that's the one i was aiming towards
03:57:28 i thank you for the other ideas but i was aiming to buy only one
03:57:55 okay, I think that's probably a fine choice.
03:57:57 if my local library had a better computer section i would be ok
03:58:07 but it's all "ms word for the over 50s"
03:58:31 hehe
03:58:57 i heard that it was best to get the third edition of the dybvig book because it dealt with r5rs where the 4th deals with r6- is that right?
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05:16:16 graspee: that's a very controversial question. many a heated argument has been waged here about R6RS.
05:16:44 but R7RS is based on R5RS, so it appears that the future scheme standards will be leaving R6RS behind.
05:17:00 I happen to be in the camp that favors R7RS over R6RS.
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05:17:21 Why do you favor it?
05:19:21 ok i should have worded my question differently. i should have said "i heard that the 3rd edition deals with r5rs and the 4th deals with r6- is that right?" leaving out the "best to" part
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05:39:34 edition?
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05:43:53 in case you weren't here earlier, adu, it was related to Dybvig
05:44:06 ok
05:44:43 TSPL?
05:44:49 yes
05:45:02 I actually don't know the answer to your question offhand, graspee.
05:45:18 (I'm answering yes to adu)
05:45:21 it's ok i can check the online versions
05:45:28 it's just slower ;)
05:45:44 Is R6RS a sterile and illegitimate spawn?
05:45:53 Sorry; that's a leading question.
05:46:29 since mark_weaver said my question was controversial i have no idea what the terminology for yours is!
05:46:35 What is Riastradh up to these days?
05:46:52 kilimanjaro: Working on some secret project that permits him to visit Cambridge now and again.
05:47:17 ahh, secrets
05:48:09 klutometis: just controversial
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05:51:12 kilimanjaro: Merely unknown; "secret" is too strong.
05:52:13 adu: Really? I thought it was uncontroversially rejected, for some reason; maybe that's unfair.
05:53:15 klutometis: from what I can tell the people who don't complain about R6RS are a small minority
05:53:32 So i'm looking at some Lisp history, and m-expressions fall out of favor because of it was just less pretty than perans?
05:54:08 only in the lisp community
05:54:17 Mathematica is M-expressions
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05:55:31 Weird. Also didn't most syntax was originally all captilized. Eg: define = DEFINE
05:56:05 youlysses: most lisps and schemes are case-insensitive
05:56:28 youlysses: so technically, nothing has changed
05:57:20 thank god back in 1960 no-one read programs and said "But why are you shouting?"
05:58:13 adu: I just started SICP and my first jump into Lisp in-general yesterday, so sorry for the stupid questions... :-P
05:58:21 graspee: XD
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06:00:13 :)
06:00:40 youlysses: I remember that some Clojure-noob was complaining about parens and devised some bizarre ad-hoc, ALGOL-like syntax.
06:00:55 I pointed him to M-expressions, and nearly implemented them as reader macros; but, alas, lost interest.
06:02:30 Homoiconicity of S-expressions is a big deal; probably more so than aesthetics.
06:02:55 did you just read the wikipedia page heeh
06:03:27 homoiconicity is not a word i personally have in my pocket
06:06:29 graspee: Heh; it's one of those things that comes up now and again but only, AFAICT, when discussing S-expressions.
06:06:43 Maybe it was invented for the sake of such conversations.
06:07:00 i think it's important too
06:07:32 for what it's worth
06:11:08 I personally like R6RS S-expressions a little more
06:11:46 hmm. that explains a lot
06:11:47 adu: With the e.g. exchangable brackets?
06:12:07 like why the r6 scheme i tried wouldn't accept anything i threw at it
06:12:18 (let ([x y] [other (cool stuff)]) (foo bar))
06:13:10 adu: That's not bad; the fact that they're merely stylistic and not enforced is a plus.
06:13:27 That was a major headache for me with Clojure: memorizing when one or the other was required.
06:13:36 don't most schemes allow you to interchange bracket types anyway?
06:13:44 graspee: Yeah; they merely formalized it.
06:13:44 like () and {} and []+
06:14:12 klutometis: I've never used closure
06:14:15 j
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06:19:33 adu: It's as close to a pseudo-Lisp as you'll get on the JVM, I think (SISC, Kawa, &c. notwithstanding).
06:20:14 Lot's of irritating corner cases, though; it's so Lisp-like that I experience the Uncanny Valley.
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06:22:48 lol
06:28:56 klutometis: well put
06:29:58 Clojure is odd but has some nice ideas which can be pillaged
06:30:54 I don't buy the whole read syntax as visual anchors argument anymore though
06:31:54 in scientific studies involving me as the test group I found out that code consisting of just normal parntheses is just as easy to read, and more pleasing to the eye
06:32:13 parentheses
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06:42:27 heh
06:43:06 when it's indented good....
06:43:12 when using emacs and paredit, i've never ever felt the need to differentiate parentheses..
06:43:37 d(/dx
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15:44:34 klutometis: r6rs was passed with a super-majority of the scheme community and was implemented in many of the most significant implementations -- that hardly sounds like "uncontroversially rejected" to me
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15:51:53 If I was an implementer, I'd implement the standard even if I disagreed.
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15:52:21 Since R7RS is taking lineage from R5RS and not R6RS, I would consider it "uncontroversially rejected".
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15:52:36 down wityh R6RS
15:52:48 down with tomodo!
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15:52:53 in reality, it is a painful split in the scheme community.
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15:53:18 one group rolled out R6RS over the objections of many people.
15:53:18 Quadrescence: neither of your sentiments are universally shared
15:53:24 but im not bloated
15:53:37 mark_weaver: i wouldn't say "one group" vs "many people"
15:53:39 and the group that got rolled over and didn't like R6RS is now producing R7RS.
15:53:46 "some people" vs "other people"
15:54:20 I consider "a group" to mean "some people".
15:55:00 certainly -- i just mean that your phrasing made it seem like there was a particular cohesive group behind one or the other
15:55:19 basically R6RS should be renamed RsucksR6
15:55:22 S
15:55:35 tomodo: i encourage you to be more constructive
15:55:38 tomodo: why do you hate r6rs? do you have a reason? or do you just inherit your hate from others?
15:55:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme
15:55:45 the latter is all too common
15:55:48 ijp: it's so bad
15:55:55 right, so you don't have a reason
15:55:59 worst scheme revision ever
15:56:01 plonk
15:56:02 lots of reasons
15:56:15 tomodo: you really are a troll, and I can say that even though you're taking my side.
15:56:25 mark_weaver: you're a troll
15:56:28 ignored forever
15:56:44 :)
15:56:58 mark_weaver: do people who like r6rs abhor r7rs?
15:57:06 mark_weaver: I thought r7rs would reconcile everybody.
15:57:15 pjb: yes and no
15:57:38 pjb: those who favor R6RS resent the fact that R7RS is not based on R6RS, but instead based on R5RS and ignores a lot of what's in R6RS.
15:57:40 r7rs is much better
15:57:54 I have moaned a lot about its take on exceptions for example
15:58:28 mark_weaver: well, that was the whole point of starting r7rs just after r6rs. It was thought that r6rs took the wrong turn. But r7rs/big should give satisfaction to people who like r6rs.
15:58:31 You guys should just take a page out of PHP's book and skip a version.
15:59:03 mgsk: taking a page out of PHP's book is almost always a bad idea
15:59:11
15:59:19 *mgsk* is joshing
16:00:25 pjb: right, but because R6RS programs will not necessarily run on R7RS, those who favor R6RS are unhappy.
16:01:35 -!- fooc [~foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
16:01:43 mgsk: please, please, PLEASE. *no* pages out of PHP's book.
16:02:03 ah ijp already said it
16:02:13 *qu1j0t3* is redundant and may be garbage collected
16:02:44 well that was the shortest flamewar in history. These marshmallows shall be wasted.
16:02:55 rudybot: want one?
16:02:56 qu1j0t3: I want it integral!
16:03:06 rudybot: full frontal?
16:03:07 qu1j0t3: If both of your frontal lobes are intact, you're not cut out to be a web developer.
16:03:13 hehe
16:03:48 So, if R6RS created such a divide, why was it brought through at all? Does the "comittee" have absolute authority on the matter?
16:04:11 I say "comittee" because I'm not sure how the whole thing works.
16:04:18 mgsk: for no apparently reason people on the comittee voted FOR r6rs
16:04:23 mgsk: democracy
16:04:32 sometimes it does strange things
16:04:32 it's bizarre
16:04:41 The folks who produced R6RS felt that there was no way to satisfy everybody without the process getting stuck forever, so in the name of progress, they felt that they had to roll over the objections of people who they felt were just wrong.
16:04:45 They just were all tired, and there remained no coffee.
16:05:08 mark_weaver: they were right, and this permited starting r7rs :-)
16:05:41 err5rs was a strange effort though
16:05:54 is Larceny the only implementation that cares about that?
16:06:11 there's no centralized authority on Scheme, just a bunch of well-regarded people in the community.
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16:06:40 R6RS was published by a number of very well-regarded people, even though a number of other very well-regarded people were against it.
16:07:00 troll
16:07:15 tomodo: I thought you had ignored mark_weaver?
16:07:35 I'm sure that once r7rs is implemented and used it for a few year, we'll be able to make a r8rs that will satisfy eveyrbody.
16:07:37 maybe you shouldn't call people names then
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16:07:58 lol
16:08:03 pjb: I don't think so.
16:08:25 tomodo: tomodo is your name... what else should I call you?
16:08:47 pjb: those who favor R6RS have written a bunch of code for R6RS, and will be unhappy with any future scheme standard that their code does not run on.. even if the later standard solves the same problems in a different way.
16:08:49 ok
16:08:52 You can satisfy everybody all of the time, etc.
16:09:45 What were the points people were unhappy with in R6RS?
16:10:08 it being absolutely horrible
16:10:16 mgsk: it was too big, it was too small, it specified foo wrong, it was written during the wrong phase of the moon, and everything in between
16:10:39 ijp: valid points.
16:11:19 some people also took offence at having to specify their objections
16:11:37 which I consider to be insane, but whatever
16:12:00 mgsk: the scheme-reports.org site has a summary of the reasons for people rejecting R6RS, but alas their site seems to down at the moment.
16:12:28 It's up for me.
16:12:41 peple should make up ther own minds
16:13:26 mgsk: okay, must be a routing issue.. anyway, there's a page on their wiki called something like SixRejection.
16:14:29 scheme should be beautiful
16:14:35 mgsk: there are also the email archives on the R6RS mailing list, notably the formal comments and ratification votes against, where well-respected folks in the community voices their objections.
16:14:37 wthat's what the commitee forgot
16:16:03 http://www.r6rs.org/ratification/results.html
16:17:04 mgsk: ah, found it: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/SixRejection
16:18:57 mark_weaver: danke.
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16:19:10 Importantly: what did The Sussman have to say on the matter?
16:19:20 ;)
16:22:13 sussman is out of thre scheme game these days
16:22:24 hes busy setting up the next revolution
16:23:28 mgsk: I'm not sure, but he didn't vote on R6RS at all, and he's participating (sporadically) on the R7RS process.
16:23:44 mgsk: but yeah, he's focused on propagators now.
16:23:59 mark_weaver: hehe :)
16:24:04 mgsk: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/propagators/
16:25:04 mgsk: Sussman has his own Scheme implementation that's under his control, namely MIT/GNU Scheme, which has made it clear that they have no intention of following R6RS..
16:25:11 troll
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16:26:23 mgsk: but then again, they don't really follow anybody :)
16:27:42 I must admit that propagators look like a huge step forward.
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16:28:10 Sussman, as always, is way ahead of his time.
16:28:17 MIT Scheme is not related to Sussman.
16:28:48 eli: I beg to differ.
16:28:54 you should take back your accusation
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16:29:37 mark_weaver: s/./ by anything other than ancient history./
16:29:43 tomodo: people call you a troll because the vast majority of your comments are purely inflamatory without any content whatsoever.
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16:30:05 "people" you
16:30:10 *mgsk* suspects tomodo is a bot
16:30:15 you're just making things worse
16:30:37 tomodo: You're slowly moving from being a harmless troll to being an offensive one. Please stop.
16:30:41 by trying to shift if from an individual accusation you made to some kind of cultural agreement
16:31:15 "purely inflamatory without any content whatsoever." cause just randomly insulting people doesn't fall under that description?
16:31:40 maybe you should take a lesson from your own advice and keep quiet when you get the urge to call people names
16:31:45 mark_weaver: Also, the constraint propagation stuff is ancient and an obvious thing coming from an EECS dept (and CSAIL has very strong EE roots).
16:31:55 tomodo: Plase stop.
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16:35:45 eli: regarding MIT/GNU Scheme, perhaps things have changed now that Chris Hanson is no longer working directly for Sussman.
16:36:29 eli: regarding propagators, yes it is based on ancient stuff, but I get the impression that there are some fresh new ideas in there. however, I'm not an expert on this subject so I can't really argue that point.
16:37:16 eli: somebody must have thought there was something novel in here, since it's the subject of a recent phd thesis and further work beyond.
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16:42:28 A quick question... Is there anything in r6rs or r7rs dealing with starting and communicating with processes, or is that all implementation-specific?
16:42:50 impl specific for now
16:44:08 Is r7rs likely to talk about that, or is it not on the plate for the time being?
16:44:42 who knows
16:45:04 r7rs large is a pie in the sky at the moment, and there's no guarantee anyone will support that module even if it is
16:45:13 On scheme-reports.org there appears to be a link to a draft for the small-language standard, but I don't see an equivalent for the large-language standard.
16:45:30 Mm, good point.
16:45:32 also large-language is a misnomer, but I digress
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16:47:20 ChibaPet: I think spells has a wrapper for some r6rs implementations, but I may be misremembering
16:47:39 spells?
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16:48:31 https://github.com/rotty/spells/
16:49:28 Ah, thank you.
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20:34:22 foof: about your matcher, (or x y z ...) have exponential complexity in the number of terms ...
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20:35:15 the reason is that the fk pattern is not a lambda and if you have two exits to the next or
20:35:52 then the number of branches becomes 2^n!
20:36:05 I think that the fix is simple!
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21:08:49 is there a way to access primitive procedures in scheme?
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21:10:11 access how ?
21:10:26 e.g., use them
21:10:45 just name it ?
21:10:57 well. primitive might be the wrong word
21:11:03 rudybot: eval (list cons car cdr null? pair?)
21:11:04 ski: your scheme sandbox is ready
21:11:05 ski: ; Value: (# # # # #)
21:12:01 whether they are primitive or not (wrt a certain implementation) normally shouldn't be relevant, though
21:12:08 what I imagine is, that car for example is in fact something like (define car (lambda (l) (primitive-car l))) in the environment
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21:12:36 maybe it is, maybe it's not
21:12:40 why do you care ?
21:12:48 I was just wondering
21:13:01 (nothing wrong with that)
21:13:02 My implementation's primitive procedures are perl CODErefs
21:13:14 (to the actual code that implements the function)
21:13:30 but it's hard to answer if you don't explain more what you're after :)
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21:18:03 well. for scheme to be lambda-consistent its primitives also need to be lambda-abstractions, afaiu. so an implementation must arrange for that, if its "true" primitives aren't lambda-abstractions.
21:19:53 i'm not sure what "lambda-consistent" means
21:20:13 It's all about observeable behaviour
21:20:27 If it behaves to an outside observer consistent in every way, then it doesn't matter how it's implemented internally
21:20:37 in any case, there would be no problem with having `cdr' not being defined using `lambda', in the implementation
21:21:01