It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.

If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.

So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?

After all the crap you needed to vent, this is the first point you've made that approaches,

1. Discussion

2. Relevancy.

Good point. It can be activated in the store. What happens when it's not? Like every single online purchase? Gift?

What happens then when it crashes/locks up? Back to the Apple store?

You're definitely right that it never needs to be updated. Of course, that was no where remotely near my point. My point was how the software can be updated. As far I know, there exists no PC on the market that requires ANOTHER PC for basic software updates. That would seem to stand out as...significant.

I still don't see why how a computer is setup or updates actually effects what the device actually does. What defines a device is what it does NOT how it is setup or updated.

Quit your patronizing crap. I understood the marketing position Apple took with the iPad before they even unveiled it. Marketing is what I do for a living.

The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.

My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it.

My main gripe is with people ignoring that glaring point, for some odd reason. It can't be utterly discounted, yet some people think it can. That is simply arrogance, and ignorance.

Yet, I'd be happy to concede that the iPad should be included with PC numbers if the iPod touch is included as well. At least then it makes "sense"

I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?

Obviously you know that you said, "Set To Boot"

In no way shape or form is that bizarre configuration a requirement of any kind.

The more we spell it out, the more the discussion remains the same. When you don't need a PC to own an iPad, then iPad will graduate to becoming a PC itself. Feature list aside.

Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.

It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.

Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?

I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...

Oh get over it. Sometimes people disagree. I think you're wrong. You're going to have to live with it. And as far as the post you quoted, it was not directed at you as you well know, it was directed at the most arrogant and uppity member of this site who talks down to anyone and everyone.

Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.

It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.

Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?

This is a good point, and it puts things into a bit of perspective. I doesn't change the fact that, unlike all windows Mac and Linux PCs, you need one PC to use another.

It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.

If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.

I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated. ...

I may have to rethink my position on this matter, since I find myself largely in agreement with extremeskater.

So the iPad can be called a PC if Apple issues an iOS update this year that doesn't require it to be tethered to a computer for initial activation and updates? If this update was installed on the original iPad, is it suddenly a PC?

The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.

+++ Wish I'd said that.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

This is the crux of the discussion here. I say it has little to do with function. If it were only function that mattered, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

How is it living in the 90s to think it's utterly ridiculous to call an iMac and an iPad the same category of "PC" when one depends on the other to function?

You chose to ignore the first part of my post. Let me give you another example. Would you consider the PS3 a PC? Up until few months ago you could install Linux on it. You can even hack it and still do it. Is it a PC? or is it a game console?!

The term PC "personal computer" is general term. This is why the terms desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet.. etc are used with with "PC".

The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.

Right and my Texas Instruments calculator from 1980 was a PC and before that my slide rule and before that my abacus.

I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated.

I have worked for IBM since I was 19, I remember when I mainframe system along with disk and tape devices would take up an entire building. Now in that same space we can house 20 times the devices. I remember the days when humans mounted taps rather then robots.

So to have a 1980's take on what a personal computers should or shouldn't be is very closed minded.

If someone uses even an iPhone or Android or any smartphone for that matter several hours a day its hard to say that isn't a personal computing devices for that person.

Is someone uses and iPad or MBP several hours a day or daily then that is simply the personal computer device that person has picked to suit their needs.

I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.

Ha!

Good points.

AIR, the term "Personal Computer" was first popularized by Apple in 1978 to differentiate the Apple ][ from the many microcomputer offerings that were, largely, in kit form and were assembled and built by hobbists.

Later, in 1981, IBM subsumed the term with the announcement of the IBM/pc.

... It's all PV (Pink Vanilla) to me

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

...... The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.
My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it. .....

I haven't read all the posts in this thread so you'll forgive me if what I say has already been said. IMHO, the question of whether or not an iPad can be considered a "traditional PC" can be answered by asking ourselves two important questions. One, does the purchase of an iPad replace what would have been the purchase of a traditional computer? ... Two, does the owner of an iPad use it to do the "majority" of the things that they used to do on a PC.

If the answer to both of those questions is yes .... and I think that in the majority of cases that would be the case ... then I don't see how it cannot be included in the "PC" category. After all, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck .....

The only problem that I see is that different people want to categorize it in the category that best supports their opinion of any particular subject ..... total sales, for instance.

At the end of the day you can bet that Steve Jobs and Steve Ballmer could not care less what category it falls in ..... only how many units are being sold. ....

Apple, bigger than Google, √ ..... bigger than Microsoft, √ The universe is unfolding as it should. Thanks, Apple.

Well based on specs my smartphone kicks ass compared to my first personal computer which was 8mhz with a 40meg harddrive. I remember when I started gaming (if you could all it that back then) the big upgrade was to go from 1meg to 2megs of video memory.

If products are even going to be sorted anymore then we need to at least come up with modern day catagories. PC is just too much of a general term these days. Decades ago when one or two devices fell into that catagory it was fine but that isn't the case anymore.

There isn't anyone today that can truly say on some level the smartphones most of us here carry are not on some level our personal computers.

EXACTLY!

I made those exact points in this thread, although for a bit, in a rather inhospitable tone, which may/may not have skewed the actual point I was trying to make.

And I agree that personal computing devices are becoming a largely diverse lineup of devices, and I don't think that trend is stopping anytime soon.

While I'd be quick to side with the 'iPad is not a PC' crowd, the line between them is narrow and can be broken with a few basic changes. Just make it a master device with bidirectional sync and use file-centric not app-centric file management.

In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.

They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.

While I'd be quick to side with the 'iPad is not a PC' crowd, the line between them is narrow and can be broken with a few basic changes. Just make it a master device with bidirectional sync and use file-centric not app-centric file management.

In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.

They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.

I think you broke the code.

The Personal Computer is dead! Long live the Personal Computer!

.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

It's not arbitrary. To me, the fact of having to sync changes my perception of the device the whole time I'm using it. When I create a file I'm thinking about the next sync. When I see the battery go down I'm thinking about the next sync. When I create a bookmark I'm thinking about the next sync. Sync is not an isolated thing that happens when I plug in, it is always there, effecting how I use it.

It's only a matter of time. I upgraded to iOS4.2 over WiFi. I download apps directly to iPad or iPod Touch ALL the time.
Most of you naysayers are missing the point about syncing. You sync because you cannot reliably run a mobile device with content you keep changing, without having the failsafe of at least ONE consolidated back-up terminal. And that is the device you sync to. Delete an app on the iPad, just sync and restore. Bought songs or apps straight into iPad? You're dumb if you don't sync to back them up to your consolidated back-up device. How else can Apple make it easy for you to use your apps and media on up to 5 devices per Store account?
Some of you have eyes, but you just don't see. Some have a brain, but don't seem to think much.

The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.

Why do you need the Airport express at all? Not sure why you need the reinstall drive either but I guess it's nice to have.

If you wanted to force them to buy an Apple router I would make the base a iOS based TimeCapsule and allow it to store media for all iDevices including the aTV for those times the network is down and you can't see the NC data center.

$299 for an iOS based TimeCapsule to replace the host computer. Maybe buy the iHome company to get the rights to that name and rename it the iHome.

It's a lttle early for April fools.
If an iPad is considered a computer then so should an iPod Touch and a Sony Dash.
And netbooks can play flash and don't need to be synced to a mother computer because they ARE a computer.

My digital watch is a computer, hence a PC.

My clipboard with built-in calculator is a tablet PC.

My tennis shoes are "mobile devices". And since almost everybody wears 2 shoes, shoe sales and market share should be counted twice.

I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...

Once again... I was gonna state the exact same thing. Marketing "pros"... please spare me!

Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member

The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nht

Why do you need the Airport express at all? Not sure why you need the reinstall drive either but I guess it's nice to have.

If you wanted to force them to buy an Apple router I would make the base a iOS based TimeCapsule and allow it to store media for all iDevices including the aTV for those times the network is down and you can't see the NC data center.

$299 for an iOS based TimeCapsule to replace the host computer. Maybe buy the iHome company to get the rights to that name and rename it the iHome.

Ahh... I wasn't going to force them to buy anything. I was thinking that Apple could:

-- combine the Airport Express within the iPad charger as part of the iPad package
-- combine MobileMe (some minimum) as part of the iPad package

Depending on how aggressive Apple wanted to beL

They could offer only 1 SKU -- the iPod Package at the Current Price

or

A second SKU -- an iPad only at a reduced price (say $50 less).

You need the reinstall drive if the iPad bricks and you don't have convenient access to another computer.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -