Bowing to everyone on OBC Connect

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mary kwart

Posts : 19Join date : 2011-01-14Age : 65Location : Ashland, Oregon

Subject: Bowing to everyone on OBC Connect Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:58 am

Hi--my name is Mary Kwart. I started going to Shasta Abbey with a beginner retreat on 1980. I went to several multi week retreats and did Jukai in 1990. I came to Shasta Abbey less often in the 90's and not at all from 1996-2008 because I had moved to Alaska.

I am now back in the area and go to the Abbey a few times a year. It is my root practice place, although now I practice with a group from the Suzuki lineage and also go to Kagyu Tibetan retreats.

I am thrilled that there is a more open forum to discuss issues centering on the Abbey and our experiences there. The Abbey was always a magical place for me. As I grow and change questions and feelings have come up that would be good to express. A lot of my issues revolve around the way women have historically been perceived and treated at the Abbey. I was given a monk tongue lashing in 1990 when I accepted Jukai wearing pants--I was told it wasn't respectful. I had to wear a discarded lay dress for the remainder of the retreat. I almost left then, but decided on a compromise--I sewed myself a meditation robe that I wore to retreats. I don't have to wear it now--attitudes have changed, but I find it disconcerting that discriminatory behavior was cloaked under the guise of "showing respect".

You know Mary this is interesting for meI think primarily that respect is how you are and who you are and what you do, When we go into anther custom or tradition or culture,we have to bend a bit or a lot and follow the way of where we are,I think it is polite to.The issue here is the word tounge lashing , and discriminatory behaviour. Tounge lashings are unkind and bullying tactics, especially to a lay person taking the precepts.When a layperson takes the prcepts,it is firstly a wonderful thing to do,it is both an outer and inner sign, of progress in belief,and understanding,one is joining a family who, are embarking on the same journey,and at such a time should be shown alot of respect,appreciation and kindness. So my view is well done for taking the precepts it is a great thing to do,it is more important than what you wear.If what you wore was deemed in some way to be inappropriate, then a quiet word and explanation is enough,if you had received this you would have felt otherwise.

The discriminatory behaviour, is something else. The style of teaching at Shasta I often felt was discriminatory, ranking systems, colours ,people who were in and people that were out,the terminology used this can help,though,but it can hinder.

Zazen shows us that all beings are equal, and I think it would have been more helpful to you as a human being,to have expressed at that time, that you had done well in your journey through life when you were taking zen Buddhism as a guide,and as Buddhists we have a responsibility to welcome and encourage you .

Hi Mary, welcome! Thanks for joining us. It does help to have a place to talk about things.

Your experience with the clothing makes me wonder when they stopped nudging women toward skirts. I remember seeing printed brochures with verbiage to the effect that "long skirts" were appropriate for women. That might have fallen by the wayside by the time I started participating ('01), at least, no one said anything to me about the pants I wore all the time, including to services and festivals.

chisanmichaelhughes wrote:

... I think primarily that respect is how you are and who you are and what you do, ...

Wow--I feel better already. I had not spoken about the Jukai occurrence with anyone before except for one woman at a retreat there last year. I didn't want to seem like someone dredging up old grievances. SHe told me something interesting--that the attitude that women should wear dresses came from Rev. Master Jiyu's prompting--she had an old fashioned idea of what women should be and look like.

I worked for thirty years in the male dominated career of fire management and recognized the same behavior in many women who were pioneers in all male fields. The first women to break through the gender barrier tended to be much more critical of other women and favored men. Probably this was a tactic they had unconsciously adopted as a coping mechanism when existing in an almost all male milieu. I had always exempted Rev, Master Jiyu from this common failing, but now realize she was perhaps doing what countless other women pioneers had done in the past.

As a Shasta groupie of the 70's, the long dress, no pants literature was one of the consistent complaints that I heard from women friends checking out what I was getting involved with. I would mumble some line of defence or plead ignorance (I do that one really well) but I do know of a few women who said that this issue was a deal breaker for them. They saw Rev. Jiyu's womens clothing policy as proof of a deeper hypocrisy about gender equality in the teaching of Shasta. I think the pants policy might of faded out in the mid 90's.

I am constantly amazed at what Buddhist Keener's like myself have put up with to protect their Buddhist ego's. I sometimes wonder for myself about what small niggles of concern today will be the "Wow, why did I put up with that" issues of tomorrow?

A Keener can be thought of as a cheerleader/salesman/advocate of something, in this case it was the truth, the light & the way of Shasta. (My spelling may be off)My first word choice was groupie but I thought it might put a confusing spin on it, which I obviously did anyway.cheers

OK--it's rare I see a word I don't know. Thanks for the comments. I am also trying to keep mindful of groupthink stuff in Buddhist circles. It seems to be time to stop being so concerned about the health of the "corporation" and get down to practicing fundamentals. We need to point out more often when the emperor has no clothes in Buddhist organizational comings and goings.

I agree about everyone focusing on their own meditative fundamentals because everything else is just too mired in spin, identity investments, job protection, entrenched conditioning, history, victimization and ego and and.....

I also agree about getting back to fundamentals because the health or sickness of a Buddhist Corporation is just a reflection of the meditative fundamentals it's members practise.

Compromising Buddhist meditative fundamentals takes the Buddhism out of the Corporation and no amount of hierarchy, coloured vestments, ceremonial pagentry or past religious honours will adequately cover that naked truth.

My only hope for Corporate healing is through some groundswell of spiritual courage that seems to have been absent for many years. Returning to placing fundamental meditative basics above personal or corporate self interest.

I agree Howard , you know there is alot to be said for rejecting what has stood up pretending to be Buddhism, or just a shallow imitation of Buddhism.I think Josh's articles whilst they may have been painful, did show that the drunken lechers of the first batch of teachers has been seen through, Hopefully this means the awareness and insight of sincere students has naturally deepened,just like the scriptures said it would.The difficulty is identifying the subtle drunken lechers,or those that indeed sell the wine of delusion. So our new best friend Mary is quite astute in coining the phrase the emporars new clothes

Mary, Pants were not the only discriminatory practice towards women. I saw Rev. Kennett use tactics of tongue lashings and humiliation much more towards women than men. I heard her say that since women are more intelligent competent (or something along those lines) that she felt she needed to be harder on them. I think there was something more to it than that. The tongue lashings and humiliation you experienced was a disturbing practice handed down from Rev. Kennett. No doubt it was handed down to her. My understanding of Buddhism is that we should work to eliminate such habits, and when we do indulge in them or slip up, to call it for what it is rather than spiritualize it. Try looking that word up in a dictionary, but it should be there.

Thanks for all of your comments. I certainly don't feel as marginalized now. I don't know why I/we put up with behavior that, in our gut, we feel is wrong. Mindfulness practice should extend to these situations but something in our brains subverts the process so that we are less than honest. Maybe wanting the institution we believe in to succeed, giving it a second chance, not trying to sweat the "small" stuff. But it often isn't a "small" issue.

You're right there Mary. In trying to tolerate the what I considered to be the small, petty issues which I conveniently labelled as "opportunities to grow up" or issues which were needing-to-be-got-over, I managed to miss the much deeper and more significant danger the seeming trivialities were quietly revealing. Had I listened to my gut, much of the heartache would have been very different. I won't say there wouldn't have been any heartache as there's bound to be pain and sorrow when something perceived as being so special collapses around you like a house of cards.

I would appreciate if you could elaborate a bit, if you wouldn't mind, on your above paragraph, especially your second and third sentence. I am still trying to sort out "exactly" what went wrong in my practice, and although your statement sounds very familiar to me, I am still "missing a lot of pieces" to the puzzle.

I'm not sure how to elaborate as there were many small issues which passed by each day which I quietly ignored and put down to needing to get over. I'll try to give a couple of examples. There was a Tea and Questions which was basically talking about rejection without necessarily mentioning that word. A monk had been home and found plenty of food in the fridge for his relative and nothing he could eat as a vegetarian. It coincided with my not being able to go to a family funeral, because that side of the family has not been told I'm trans so going would not have been a good idea. I asked a question about accepting the implied rejection. The monk clearly had no idea I was trans as when I said that as far as that branch of the family was concerned I was non-existent, he asked if they thought I was dead or something and when I answered that I'm a female to male transsexual, his face told me he hadn't been told. That was the first issue I ignored. The second, which was harder to ignore was when the monk came up after tea and questions and gave me a strong warning that "it's not wise to discuss these things. After all, you never know who's there and who they're going to tell. And if you're thinking of joining this community, you need to think very carefully about discussing these things." He couldn't even bring himself to say the word transsexual! He advocated fear and repression over openness and honesty that day. Not so easy to ignore but then I tried to say he was just one monk not all of them.

Another quick example is not having access to shower facilities during larger retreats. There is a shower I could have used - had it been thought about...however, it wasn't thought about and it's those things I ignored and put down as petty and needing to grow up over. Many people in the world don't have access to showers. Many people in the world are unable to be open about who and what they are. What I overlooked is that England is not one of those countries and I shouldn't have felt obliged to place myself alongside third world countries or those with oppressive regimes as a matter of routine at Throssel.

Talking to a monk, I was asked why I hadn't sought to become a monk. I said I hadn't wanted to put Daishin in a position of having to say "no" due to the trans status and the monk laughed and said, "That's delusion!" Given what followed when I did seek to become a monk, I have to reply, "Who's delusion?" I could give other small examples which pointed to a larger issue, or would have done had I not ignored my gut instinct and intuition, but think you probably get the picture...

Thanks Brigitte. One thing this site seems to be doing is showing the common trends many of us have experienced both in the UK and US and revealed that despite numerous different manifestations, the core response - or rather non-response - is the same in both places. Although not particularly comfortable, somehow it helps to see the problems are more widespread than they might at first appear. It helps to see the questions I've had as a consequence of the mishandling of my situation, not just at the time but for a couple of subsequent years too when lay trainees were told to stop all contact, are questions others here have evidently asked too. Selfishly, I'm just relieved to be one of the lucky ones on this site as I've not had to wait thirty or forty years to meet others in a similar situation like some...

I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that shower accommodations were not made for you to take a simple shower. If you were allergic to soy, there would have been special food for you. If you had a swollen knee, you'd have been given time to elevate your leg. If you'd had a cold, you would have been allowed to rest. Why not a shower?Unless, of course, they misunderstood and thought you were requesting something like a spa day complete with hot stone massage, seaweed wrap and exfoliation. Well, in that light, Robert, really, I understand the OBC's position.

I guess the kindest thing I can say about the lack of shower is it was a careless oversight, but one which revealed a deeper, less than accepting attitude. It comes back to the question, which speaks louder, actions or words? The actions spoke eloquently for themselves at almost every turn, if only I'd have been willing to trust what I was feeling earlier.

I have taken a vow to look more closely at the small things and not gloss them over at the Abbey and also other dedicated practice places, and in everyday life. I am not the best at subtle inter-personal communications so must learn to do right speech without blaming or anger. My problem is saying the first thing that comes to me. I have to get away from the situation to craft a better reply, but by then the situation is history and I feel bad about dredging it up again.

Hello MaryYour " vow to look more closely at the small things and not gloss over them" is the best I can hope that the OBC connect will help bring about for Shasta visitors. It may not address past ills but it may take away the carte blanche behavioural credit cards from Monks who will have to address questions they've managed to skirt in the past. How they respond to your questions might give you better info than the answers themselves.

Rev Meian has stated today that she has not dissuaded anyone from coming to this forum so it will be interesting to see if you notice a change in how Shasta Monks respond to you, upon your next visit.My toque is off to you for the moxy you show in posting here while maintaining the intent of continuing to train at Shasta. I have found doubt to be as helpful a meditational object as anything else but that is not a view that I've seen expressed from Shasta for a long time..Cheers

Your post was very interesting. I can understand the ignorance of the monk and of Throssel as a whole and their not knowing how to handle the unusualness of your situation. That, I'm sure you know from experience, is not unusual. What seems typical of the mistakes they make, however, is that did not enlist your help in educating them. It was my experience that the hierarchy new best, and as a new trainee, you'd have little to offer of value other than learn from them. And so they trample all over your feelings, rights even, as a human being, not having a clue that they are doing it or that you could be an invaluable source of knowledge to them. This was my experience when I was ill--the hierarchy knew what was best for me and my input was superfluous.

PS Please don't read transgender=illness. It's just that we were both vulnerable in our own ways.

I think the parallels speak for themselves in our situations, be it illness or transsexuality. Given the difficulty some of the monks had, I did offer (thanks mainly to Rev Wilber urging me) to do an informal talk to explain what is known about transsexuality and the routes through treatment and how that can impact on a person's life. The offer was turned down presumably as the monks decided they did not need any assistance in understanding the very situation they were finding challenging. Perhaps the shower situation could have been resolved quickly and discreetly without blame through such a talk, but as you say, the hierarchy knows best.

I remember the first zen retreat I went in 1970 with Kennett Roshi,During a teabreak we were all talking about communities. Michael Taylor,who ia still a friend, ( he was an amazing guy,ran a dept at the British Museum,lecturer at London school of economics,married to an actress, had his long hair groomed by Videl sassoon.Then gave it all up to help homeless men and women,and later lived a christian retreat style life on a Scottish Island) He joined in the discussion by saying that a community should be for everyone; the granny,the mentally subnormal,no one should be excluded.Well that was 41 years ago I remember it clear as anything, It rubs me up when different situations arise. The most recent was when I supported a family in the village where I live,whose Dad was sent to prison for a sex offence with a minor,the problem was not being there for the kids,it was reacting when he came out.The point in hand though is the basis of our practice,is it inclusive or exclusive. Does by having a rank and title mean one is superior? Does the practice of loving kindness,remaiin a personal feel good factor and dualistic high.

It was not Robert who was really being tested it was those whose responsibility is was to look after him, to simply show him the way. The way through life is not mapped out,and we constantly come into contact with decision making situations. If our meditations, have been based on compassion , love and wisdom,we hopefully will make our decisions,and in fact our journey will be based these precious life gifts

You have a big heart chisan.Tenderness can have a revolutionary effect on the mind of man.I think I have only heard that said once in all the years I have practiced(shushogi apart) its so sad. Sometimes when it flows it needs to be reconised and aknowledged,so that others can see its workings and direction.Its a healing energy that can very easily be looked at foolishly by others.If we really look we can see it working all around us. This world needs it by the bucket load.

I just dont get it when I see people who have trained for quite a while showing a hardness sometimes, that very obviously hasnt come under themicroscope of the heart, probably some aspect of conditioning that needs to come into the light, or is it some sort of - spare the rod and spoil the child. I must say I was heartened by Rev Meians hopefull interaction, as difficult and asvunerable as that maybe for her. I wish her well with her efforts.

I remember your first tentative enquiries here John, you speak now with a lot more clarity of direction,this is not found even in the very best zen books. I think the forum has been good for you, talking to (almost) normal people. Your confidence and good direction, certainly inspire me,and point out the true way

I appreciate Mary's remarks about the groupthink stuff in Buddhist circles. I have seen this phenomenon in several American Buddhist centers. I also really appreciate her sharing her misgivings about unspoken dress codes for members, male or female. I couildn't concur more with her when she says: "It seems to be time to stop being so concerned about the health of the 'corporation' and get down to practiciing fundamentals." There's no excuse for tongue lashings, humiliation, being given the cold shoulder, hostile glares, and all the rest of the bad behavior I've seen directed both at others and myself imany dharma scenes.

I'm still thinking of Isan's example of 'drinking the cool-aide' and why and how I did it....

well, Now I have come to some conclusions--after reading my old posts I am at a lot different place now. I'm swearing off organized religion--I'm no longer supporting the spiritual corporation. It's not sangha anymore--it has been usurped by the powers that be. Energy in these places go toward maintaining the corporation, not toward spiritual practice. I am tired of the Eko Little thing, the continuing pussyfooting around of Shasta Abbey (after having checked out the anemic Bright Moon website) and continuing inability of these institutions to recognize simple things like "Hey--maybe we should not use sexist language in our liturgy anymore". These small things that are not changed while everyone contorts in endless discussions about them, without any real power to actually change them is a waste of energy. My real sangha is the weeping willow in my yard, my friends, the grass and strawberries. My place of practice is my home and the world--no need to go to a practice center. It is all here, now. The time of the practice center is done. Time to start a new form of American Buddhism and cut the ties to these corporate centers for the preservation of arcane foreign culture and hierarchical system.

I may continue to put time in on Bright Moon, on occassion, but it is precisely from the perspective that you describe!

And in particular, you have identified the heart of the matter here:

"My place of practice is my home and the world--no need to go to a practice center. It is all here, now. The time of the practice center is done. Time to start a new form of American Buddhism and cut the ties to these corporate centers for the preservation of arcane foreign culture and hierarchical system."

Glad you checked in on Bright Moon's Gender Inclusive Language in Scriptures thread, started by Ryuji C. I was one of the contributors, and joined Ryuji and Ann D on Skype for further discussion, and later emails...

As you may know, the thread has been quiet for a while. It doesn't seem the best place to take things forward but was (to quote Ryuji) an initial step of beginning to 'let the cat out of the bag', and also to show support for others (including the ordained) who would like to see this change -- but I do not know how widely the thread was read. Sources mentioned on the thread do suggest that monastic wheels will eventually grind their way toward all-new translations...I hope then that the opportunity will be taken to avoid masculine generic language. (-:

Hey Mary, Are you an official convert to heretism. If so, you may be interested in my latest book: An [banned term]'s Guide to being a Heretic: Basic Dos and Don'ts Every Heretic Needs to Know.

Seriously though, at a certain point it is healthy, I believe, to leave the confines of a practice center and see where your own mind goes without it being herded by others. Often that is not their intention, but it is a basic human tendency to drift towards group think of one flavor or another within a closed community. That is not to say they don't have much to offer, but so does freeing oneself from certain confines also. Who knows where you will go from here. (Please see my book to get more definitive directions).

And bows to you, Mary. I'm happy to hear from someone in Ashland. The Shasta Abbey mystique is pretty powerful and, I think, different from the OBC in the UK. It has taken a long time for me to let the Shasta Abbey experience fade into perspective.

Now I wish we could hear more from folks who were connected to North Cascades Buddhist Priory, which -- for reasons not clear -- has split from the OBC.

I share your personal belief that Koshin quit rather than allowing anyone from the OBC to speak privately with his disciples or come uninvited to his priory. But this is just my own thought and I have no real evidence. A friend of mine (a lay minister who is still with Koshin) seemed to think his break with the OBC wasn't a big deal, but I think the issue must have been deeply important to Koshin for him to cut all ties. I also suspect he believes that he is the true Dharma heir of JK and that the others have lost their way.

Recommend you see the current film, THE MASTER. It might still be in some theaters, but will certainly be out on iTunes, Netflixs, and DVD in the Spring. Not a perfect film and the director doesn't really understand some of the dynamics of self-proclaimed messiahs and small cultic groups, but it is still worth seeing. There are not many films that come close to showing what its like to live in these situations. Oh, the stories we believe and live......