However can you tell me what the difference is between a Demon Hunter using Immolation during Metamorphosis and a Warlock using Immolation (aura) during Metamorphosis? Both are required to be in melee, both are using spells, both are using the same spells. Would you honestly be satisfied with another class getting a simple recolor of your ability? Or your own class (warlock) having their ability recolored?

Since you know demon hunters were the first to use the purple demon form Warlocks now use. This is why from a lore standpoint of course both can exist at the same time. But from a game play standpoint they can't because core demon hunter abilities were given to the Warlock class and used as iconic class/spec defining abilities of the Warlock class.

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

Warlocks fight in a fundamentally different way to Demon Hunters and have a diametrically opposed outlook to them, largely thanks to a completely different heritage. It's like comparing a Shadow Priest to a Death Knight and saying they're similar because they both use Shadow, Frost and Plagues.

I agree that warlocks and Demon Hunters are different Lore wise and I'm sure if they ever made demon hunter they'd have different gameplay, more melee based. I think the only problem lies in the fact that many of the demon hunter's abilities, at least the ones we know of from warcraft 3, have been used up for different classes. So although I think it is possible to make them a separate class, creating new abilities that wouldn't overlap with other classes would be an issue. again still possible but maybe not enough diversity since much of their abilities have been given to the existing classes

However can you tell me what the difference is between a Demon Hunter using Immolation during Metamorphosis and a Warlock using Immolation (aura) during Metamorphosis? Both are required to be in melee, both are using spells, both are using the same spells. Would you honestly be satisfied with another class getting a simple recolor of your ability? Or your own class (warlock) having their ability recolored?

Since you know demon hunters were the first to use the purple demon form Warlocks now use. This is why from a lore standpoint of course both can exist at the same time. But from a game play standpoint they can't because core demon hunter abilities were given to the Warlock class and used as iconic class/spec defining abilities of the Warlock class.

They both can exist. Just like death knights and their death coils. Yet, like you said "immolation aura" and "Metamorphosis" are the sole abilities of demon hunters. Yet the metamorphissi we use is basically "illidan clone" has the night elf ears and his face and blindfold. To me, it simply is a bastardized version of illidans demon form as I, a female orc, morph into a male nightelf demon. Yet, all it is, is a caster form. A demon hunter metamorphosis could be completely different and race dependent, oh and the biggy, gender dependent. Immolation aura is simply an aoe to justify the means (currently) and they can rename it come demon hunters, like they did with our death coil. hell all it is, is a hellfire graphic that we can cast through. why rename it honestly?

They both can exist. Just like death knights and their death coils. Yet, like you said "immolation aura" and "Metamorphosis" are the sole abilities of demon hunters. Yet the metamorphissi we use is basically "illidan clone" has the night elf ears and his face and blindfold. To me, it simply is a bastardized version of illidans demon form as I, a female orc, morph into a male nightelf demon. Yet, all it is, is a caster form. A demon hunter metamorphosis could be completely different and race dependent, oh and the biggy, gender dependent. Immolation aura is simply an aoe to justify the means (currently) and they can rename it come demon hunters, like they did with our death coil. hell all it is, is a hellfire graphic that we can cast through. why rename it honestly?

The problem is that the established ability Metamorphosis for a Demon hunter, one of their iconic forms, is exactly that. A night elf demon form. The problem isn't that they could be changed to something else. The problem is that the already established iconic ability and look is given to another class. And not just an ability and look that was inspired by the Demon Hunter but the exact ability and look.

It would be like giving the Druid shape shift forms to a new class and just calling them something different. Do you think Druids would be upset? You betcha. Would it fit for a class like that to be in the game? Not really because it isn't just taking inspiration but cloning part of an existing class. We aren't talking about just some random ability here. Death coil isn't an iconic ability. It may have been a very useful ability but it isn't something that made the warlock class the warlock class.

Metamorphosis is the definitive Demonology ability. Something that was a top tier talent in the old system, the pinnacle of Demonology. And now in MoP something that is the very core of the Demonology class.

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

No, but warlocks used to have Drain mana. It was removed from the game due to being irrelevant. (http://www.wowpedia.org/Drain_Mana) I didn't bring it up because it is no longer in the game since it was removed in Cataclysm even if it saw almost no use before then. Also for the record Mana Burn is no longer in the game.

Not the point, Mana Burn was the demon hunters ability, it was also the shadow priests ability. If you're going to use Drain Life and Drain Mana as some justification for overlap between Warlocks and Demon hunters, you can't just selectively ignore that they didn't have Drain life / Mana, they had mana burn - which is a priest ability.

Originally Posted by rhorle

There weapon is irrelevant because as a class in WoW they would be using any weapon and not just glaive models. Yes they are a melee class that still doesn't mean that many of their abilities are shared with warlocks and their stuff would essentially be a copy of warlock things but spell replaced with melee ability.

No, I'm sorry - but it's not. That's like saying Dark Hunters will share too much crossover with DKs because of their shadow and necromantic abilities, while completely ignoring the fact that they use a bow.

Are enhancement shamen the same as elemental shamen / mages, because they both use fire and ice? No, because being in melee changes things completely.

Don't even get me started on "It will just be warlock abilities in melee range", are you joking? That would be the crappiest implementation of a class ever - blizzard wouldn't bother adding Demon Hunters if they couldn't do them justice, they're a big thing, if they were going to be melee warlocks they'd never get in - which is my whole point. They need to be their own class to be justifable as adding, they're never going to be a 4th spec.

Originally Posted by rhorle

Warlocks don't use heavy armor unless you consider cloth to be heavy.

Warlocks don't have madsick evasion either, which was part of what you quoted.

Originally Posted by rhorle

Warlocks had this ability until it was removed in Cataclysm (http://www.wowpedia.org/Sense_Demon) but didn't have to remove eyes and blindfold themselves in order to sense and find demons. We can do that with normal spells.

But a DEMON HUNTER would, it's a fundamental part of their initiation.

Originally Posted by rhorle

Warlocks use Arcane and Fire energy as well as Shadow. No one is doubting that there are lore differences between a Demon Hunter and a Warlock. What people always say is that there would be very little game difference between a Demon Hunter and a warlock because almost all of the Demon Hunter abilities have been given to the Warlock class. The only thing they haven't been given were Melee dps.

I'd argue that there's plenty of room for making a new class out of them, being melee dps is a pretty huge one - actually having a tank spec would be a given too.

There's plenty of room for making demonically infused, weapon based abilities with a resource buildup system that lets you use more heavily influenced demonic abilities, whether this be akin to metamorphosis or simply activating an immolation aura (since demon hunters were fine using that without meta).

Originally Posted by rhorle

Metamorphosis is THE definitive ability of Demonology warlocks in today's game. How would you justify taking that and giving it to Demon Hunters? Demon Hunters as a class might have worked if added to the game early on but not anymore.

Deathknights and Warlocks both had Deathcoil (and I'm sure you can consider Mortal Coil to be the same thing), Meta being given to demon hunters isn't that big a thing, especially if it was implimented differently - hell, Demon Hunters don't even need metamorphosis - you do know every demon hunter can't do that, right? It's iconic because Illidan did it, but that was after acquiring the skull of Guldan - other demon hunters don't reach that point of corruption until the end of their existence, after years of corruption - at which point they usually cease to be and become, essentially, a full fledged demon.

Originally Posted by rhorle

From a lore standpoint yes. But not from a ability and mechanic stand point. What is diametrically different about a demon hunter using the Metamorphosis ability and a Warlock using the Metamorphosis ability?

What's different about a deathknight using deathcoil and a warlock using deathcoil, oh - wait, blizzard made them work completely differently.

There are plenty of ways to make a potential Meta work differently for Demon Hunters, make it a max level talent that you can use once or twice a fight as a major cooldown, instead of popping into it regularly as warlocks do - make it not alter your abilities, whereas part of the major thing about a warlocks meta is it changes all of your toolkit.

Just because you can't think up a way to make two different variations of one spell, doesn't mean the game designers over at blizzard can't - hell, they've had multiple different versions of meta between when it was added and now, and that was when they weren't even trying to make it particularly different.

Originally Posted by rhorle

The problem is that the established ability Metamorphosis for a Demon hunter, one of their iconic forms, is exactly that. A night elf demon form.

And with this, haven't you, essentially, just admitted that the night elf form is importantly iconic to demon hunters?

We'll never get night elf warlocks, we just won't.

Are you really going to make the argument that warlocks will get a demon hunter tree but night elves will be barred from it?

Are you really going to make the argument that warlocks will get a demon hunter tree but night elves will be barred from it?

Aside from Demon Hunters being Agility based, this is the nail on the coffin of the issue. Demon Hunters are to Night Elves what Monks are to Pandaren: an essential, inextricable part of their race lore. You won't have Night Elf Warlocks, and even if you did, lorewise they would have to be recent additions. A deus ex machina solution like "Oh we had warlocks all along, they were just hidden in the emerald nightmare" or similar would be bad storytelling, imo.

Four years ago you would probably have said "We'll never get night elf mages, we just won't."

At this point there's really no justification for saying that'll never happen.

Frankly, I think that having access to mages for two expansions alone would be enough justification for some of them to go down the dark path and become warlocks. The current parallels with the demon hunter class is an even stronger justification, and if they were to fully implement demon hunting as a fourth spec there would literally be no reason not to have night elf warlocks. Dress the class trainer up as a demon hunter and have him kneeling off by himself away from the other trainers. Done.

First of all, almost all of the demon hunter lore comes from the RPG which is not technically canon, and at the very least should not be considered "set in stone." In WoW, not all demon hunters are blind, or even tattooed.

Demon Hunter Supplicant and Demon Hunter Initiate.

If we are talking about the WoW RPG, we should first establish that the RPG was built around multiclassing. Becoming a Demon Hunter (a prestige class) required the character to have already taken levels as a spell caster. The character also needed a chaotic alignment; IE, a warlock. They do however burn out their eyes at a relatively low level as part of their initiation, as part of a ritual to entrap a demonic essence within their body.

In the RPG, Demon Hunters also do not necessarily use double-bladed warglaives. Rather, they use Warblades -- a bladed weapon (of any sort, including spears and daggers) through which they channel chaotic energies, shrouding the blades in green fire and dealing fel damage to anything they strike. This is not unlike how the unique, named Runeblades of WC3's death knights morphed into the generic "anything with runes added" Rune Weapons of WoW.

It should also be noted that they didn't actually use the Metamorphosis ability from Warcraft III. Instead, they had two seperate abilities: Dark Metamorphosis and Demonic Ascendance. Dark Metamorphosis simply boosts their spell casting level to be on par with their demon hunter level once a day (IE a level 10 demon hunter can use level 10 warlock abilities). Demonic Ascendance, acquired at the 10th level, causes them to permanently develop demonic traits and be considered a demon instead of humanoid.

At any rate, as I've said before, you can emulate the demon hunter class very accurately with a warlock now. Spec into: Demonology, Glyph of Demon Hunting, Soul Link, Grimoire of Sacrifice.

I could go on. This is a very fun playstyle and very viable for solo content and scenarios (don't use in dungeons unless you're properly geared and with people you know, as you'll pull aggro from the tank). It operates at melee range as you will not have a demon companion and will be making use of abilities like Demonic Slash, Immolation Aura, Carrion Swarm, and Void Ray, which require you to be within 15 yards of your opponent. Corruption, Hand of Gul'dan, and Soul Fire are also used extensively.

Also recommend Glyph of Soul Consumption (restore 20% of health when killing worthy opponents) and possibly Glyph of Carrion Swarm, if you don't want to knock your enemies back with it.

Put together a demon hunter transmog set if you wish (plenty of viable cloth options, I especially like the heroic Sanctified Dark Coven leggings, but the Challenge Mode gear is perfect and even includes glowing demonic tattoos). No blindfolds, but you can brew up some Four Senses Brew to give yourself a blindfold for five minutes, or hang out in Felwood while doing the quest that grants you a demon hunter's blindfold temporarily.

There are plenty of cool one-handed swords for your main hand, though unfortunately there aren't any offhand items that look like swords. You'll also soon be able to transmogrify staves into polearms, opening up some really interesting weapon possibilities.

Gear is another hellish subject, which baffles me when people try to use mechanics as an argument AGAINST them being unique to warlocks.

if tied to warlocks
a) DH tree uses caster gear, at which point it becomes the only melee-dps to be using the caster hit system, making them bizarrely not value expertise - I'm sure the other melee would love that. In addition, you'd be having to roll caster stats into a melee spec - which is exactly what blizzard DON'T want to do with holy paladins - they prefer holy plate to this, which says a lot.

b) DH tree uses leather (as it should), at which point warlocks become the only class in the game to be using a different armor type between one spec and another, a complete nightmare for gearing and, when the inevitable fight rolls around that the DH tree is "optimal" on, what then? Do guilds need to be syphoning gear away from "pure" agility classes to gear up their warlock for that encounter they're gamebreakingly good on?

Or they could just be a new class. With a melee dps, tank and other tree, a second dps tree would probably be easiest to justify. Making one dps tree mostly based on the demon hunter and demon-infused weapon based abilities, the other tree more based around utilizing demonic abilities or somesuch, hell - make that tree the only one that gets to use meta every now and again. I'm sure blizzard can come up with some way of distinguishing them with their veteran game design staff if I can come up with that in the 5minutes it takes to type the post.

Originally Posted by Kathranis

Four years ago you would probably have said "We'll never get night elf mages, we just won't."

I'll give you that, but I'd like to think there's a line between using the arcane and actively coercing with demons.

Also, my point isn't that you can't emulate a poor-mans demon hunter as a warlock, it's that if demon hunters are added - it won't be as a warlock spec.

I'm open to the possibility that demon hunters might never be added, that's not unthinkable (though I'd be surprised if we didn't get them eventually, they've always seemed as inevitable as pandaren), demon hunters being added to the warlock spec is pretty unthinkable, for a plethora of reasons on both lore and mechanical fronts.

See, there we have to disagree. I think it's pretty likely that Demon Hunters will be implemented eventually. They've been too frequently requested for too long. They were right up there with death knights, pandaren, and brewmasters. With those three out of the way, Demon Hunter has become one of the most discussed/requested topics on forums.

While I'd love to see them implemented as a hero class, I just don't really know how viable that is at this point. Blizzard just added an agility-based leather-wearing melee DPS / tank class. Demon Hunter obviously doesn't have to play anything like a monk, but it's really not filling any "empty" role. It would be added purely because people really, really like them, not for any practical gameplay reasons.

I also don't think Demonology w/ Glyph of Demon Hunting is a "poor man's" demon hunter. It's pretty damn spot on. I don't really know what more they could do to make it much more accurate. Maybe change Fury Ward to "Demonic Evasion" and have you avoid all incoming damage instead of absorb it.

Otherwise it's just a matter of making the warlock look like a demon hunter. All that takes is some new cloth kilts and maybe a cloth blindfold. Maybe a spellblade that looks like a warglaive. Heck, they could even make an offhand item that looks like a warglaive.

In terms of lore, there is no difficulty in adding the warlock class to night elves. In fact, I'd like to see it opened up to draenei, too, and for Forsaken to get its own twisted order of masochistic paladin zealots.

Class trainers barely have a presence in the game now. They exist to offer a couple introductory quests, teach dual spec, and give dungeon quests at level 20 and 50.

Explaining night elf warlocks is simple. Really simple. If they get a demon hunter spec, even more simple, as you can use a night elf demon hunter as a literal warlock class trainer.

Oh, hey, there's a demon hunter standing over a dead grell in Shadowglen, away from the other class trainers. He talks about fighting fel with fel and walking the line between good and evil. He has you practice shadow bolt on a training dummy, tells you that you have great power and you can harness it to hunt demons, but you'll be an outcast among the night elves, or you can let it corrupt you and he may one day have to hunt you.

You go to Darnassus, there's a warlock class trainer there hanging out in the shadows somewhere away from prying eyes. They're not a demon hunter, no, they're a former magi. They talk about Illidan, a mage who turned to the greater powers of the legion. They tell you that they've stolen some forbidden writings and would be willing to share the knowledge they conceal.

Hell, maybe they go so far as to implement the Dark Embrace as a faction of warlocks and demon hunters founded by night elves long ago, maybe guarding the ruins of Suramar and the Tomb of Sargeras in Illidan's absence, or maybe emerging from the shadows to do battle with the Burning Legion at long last.

As for gearing issues, I doubt warlocks would ever be able to function as full tanks. If they got Demon Hunting as a fourth spec, it would likely just be a more fully realized version of what they get with Demonology + Glyph of Demon Hunting. A melee-range caster with some minor tanking ability. Doesn't have to be a big deal, certainly not disrupting the "establishment."

And hell, if we're talking fourth specs, they could give other classes similar deals. Give mages a warmage spec, capable of fighting at melee range and wielding staves in their offhand with a stat penalty. Give hunters a new Beastmastery spec focused on melee combat, as Rexxar long ago demonstrated. Give Paladins a dedicated shockadin spec, call it Crusader; they can hold librams in their offhand. Hell, give rogues and warrior specs with ranged capability, look to the RPG's Scout class and Gilnean warriors like Genn Greymane for inspiration.

I agree Demon Hunters are likely to be added, as you've said - they've been requested for a long time and it's a no brainer to add them eventually, but that's all the more reason that they're more likely to be a new class - imagine the backlash if they're not. Would the people wanting pandaren be satisfied if it was just a tauren alternate skin? My line about being open to the possibilities that demon hunters wouldn't be added was more an emphasis on how little I think it would be a warlock talent tree - I'm more inclined to believe they'd not add demon hunters than they would add them as a warlock spec.

Originally Posted by Kathranis

-4th spec snip- These ideas aren't so crazy, are they?

Originally Posted by Kathranis

While I'd love to see them implemented as a hero class, I just don't really know how viable that is at this point. Blizzard just added an agility-based leather-wearing melee DPS / tank class. Demon Hunter obviously doesn't have to play anything like a monk, but it's really not filling any "empty" role. It would be added purely because people really, really like them, not for any practical gameplay reasons.

Those two sections of your post don't gel well together.

On one hand, you're saying Demon Hunters don't have enough of a niche to fit anymore - which I can kinda understand, I fully agree that classes / specs shouldn't be added if they step on the toes of other classes. As much as I'd like to see a necromancer, I think at this point it would step on the toes of warlocks more than is safe.

On the other, you're saying that you seem open to giving other classes a 4th spec.

At which point

A) You're adding a HEAP of classes which x primary stat x armor type dps specs, which was one of the reasons you cited against added a demon hunter as it's own class.
B) Risks stepping on the toes of other classes far more than a demon hunter will, at which point does the line between classes start to become blurred? Can they really make a melee hunter and ranged rogue spec fit, when already the rogue specs are in dire need of differentiating and the hunter specs aren't much better? You're avoiding adding ONE new class with three specs, that needs to avoid treading on the existing classes toes, to adding 11 talent trees that have to avoid stepping on our existing classes trees AND each others.

Adding another agility based CLASS doesn't matter much - there are still only 10-25 players in a raid (adding the demon hunter to a raid would be removing one of the other classes), adding new SPECS does matter, since those specs aren't taking up raid since if your warlock suddenly starts needing agility gear for his demon hunter spec, that's directly competing with the existing agility users in the raid - they've not gone anywhere.

You've also got all of the gear concerns I listed a few posts back, do your melee mages (as much as I'd love to see spell breakers), suddenly a complete mess to balance because they're meleeing while using spell hit, or do they need the melee hit levels, but require to get their expertise entirely through reforging? Is every class capable of playing ranged going to be pressured into that tree due to the overpowered nature of ranged classes on many fights? It's a tin of snakes that I doubt blizzard want to open.

But, alas, I think I've posted enough on the subject, so I'll either stop or at least slow down my posting - since I think I've made my opinion pretty clear.
I think adding a 4th spec causes far more problems than adding a new class - might it step on the toes of warlocks with it's demonic relations? Maybe, but only as much as it steps on rogues and monks with it's evasion based melee fighting and DKs with it's weapon enhancements. That's without going into the huge can of worms that adding a 4th, completely different spec would cause from a mechanical and gear standpoint, and ignoring the knockon effect it might cause if the rest of the community suddenly feels entitled to having a 4th spec - it amplifies the problem even more.

Despite what you've posted, I'm still not sold on night elves becoming warlocks any time soon either, yes I'd have said the same with mages, but if mages was giving an inch, warlocks would be giving a mile.

But, I'll leave it at that - at least for now, God knows I've told myself I've posted enough on the subject before, but I keep finding myself coming back.

I think maybe some folks are underestimating Blizz's ability to make things fit if they want to, whether it results in a "lolore" retcon or just a reinterpretation/re-imagining or maybe like a new side to something. Even in-universe, no one has perfect knowledge / omniscience ...

Anything is possible, lore-wise. And in the end ... they've said it before and I'm sure they'll say it again ... gameplay > lore. Maybe folks don't agree this is how it should be, but this is how Blizz operates.

Personally, although I can see all the difficulties (outlined in this thread), I think they will add Demon Hunters as a new class. Probably ranged physical, tank, and who knows what for third spec -- melee caster ? And I imagine they'll use mail.