Date:
11th Sep 2004
Intro: For locals the name Louise Shepherd will probably spring
immediately to mind from her guide book "A Rock Climbers Guide To
Arapiles/Djurite" which is still very popular. Louise was probably
the strongest female climber of the 80's, being the first woman to climb
grade 25/26 with leads such as Tales Of Power (26/27) and Separate Reality (26) in the US, Lord Of
The Flies (26) in the UK, and at home the first onsight ascent of Trojan (25) at Mt Arapiles. Needless to say this caused a stir
among what was then a very male-dominated sport. Placing gear on lead during some
of the hardest onsight ascents is a style not often matched by today's top
climbers. She also had a major influence
on the development of new routes in the Grampians such as the ever poplar
Amnesty International (24) and Diazepam (25) at Mt Stapylton. These days
she resides in Natimuk, a handy 10 minutes from Arapiles, works as a
teacher and ACIA instructor, is the
co-founder of the local
Climbing Company
guiding service, and is very
passionate about environmental issues, taking a active role in the Wimmera
area through the "Friends Of Arapiles".

Notable First Ascents

** You Gotta Say Yes To Another Excess (25)

1986

Moonarie

** Diazepam (25)

1985

Classic on the Wall
Of Fools

Summerday Valley,
Grampians

** Raving Loonies
(24)

1986

With Steve Monks

The Fortress,
Grampians

* Golden Gaytime (23)

1989

Jam crack

Slander Gully,
Grampians

*** Return To
Gariwerd (22)

1991

Eureka Towers,
Grampians

** Amnesty
International (24)

1988

Pumpy, hard, on small
wires

Amnesty Wall,
Grampians

* Femroc (18)

1979

Mt Arapiles

*** Curtain Call (23)

1981

Mt Arapiles

** Venus Aphrodites
(25)

1985

Eagles Head,
Grampians

*** Labyrinths (25)

1989

Crag X, Grampians

** Promise Not To
Tell (22)

1989

Crag X, Grampians

[ As the rain pours down outside we sit in Louise's house at the back of
The Climbing Company's office in Natimuk mere minutes from Mt Arapiles.
Cups of tea all round, and some home made bread. The atmosphere is relaxed
as the interview begins... ]

Q: You used to live near the beach in South Australia before finding a
home in Natimuk, Victoria just 10 minutes from Mt Arapiles. Did you try
several recreations (hang gliding?) before settling on the sport of
climbing in 1979? Can you recall your first experiences with climbing?

I
started climbing in 78 and I did do a bit of hang-gliding. I'm amazed you
managed to find that out. My first experiences in climbing were with my
then boyfriend of the time, Kym Smith. He had heard about climbing. This
was before there was any such things as outdoor shops or climbing
companies. There was one climbing shop in Melbourne, I believe, but there
was none in Adelaide where I grew up. He managed to find someone who did
do a bit of climbing and was starting to sell ropes and harnesses just in
his garage. We went around there and bought a rope and a harness and he
said "do you know how to use it?". And we said "no...". So he said "Well
maybe I should show you how to use it". [laughs] So he took us climbing in
the Adelaide hills.

Before that we just kind of bought this piece of nylon marine rope that
you can melt with a match, the stuff goes blobby and smokes - not a
climbing rope at all. We took it to the Grampians and we walked up the
Elephant's Hide trailing this bright yellow marine rope and got to the top
just trailing it. A the top there was this little pinnacle, and we rapped
the rope around this little knob and went hand over hand over the side of
the pinnacle. [laughs]. I don't know what we thought we were doing, but
somehow we had it in our minds that this was climbing.

So, yeah, my first experience climbing was at Morialta Falls in the
Adelaide hills - quite a good little local area. I was wearing at the time
bovver boots, because that's all I had - my bush walking boots. These
enormous leather boots with really chunky soles on them. They were
absolutely hopeless.

Above Right: A young Louise Shepherd. Photo
By Tony Barker. Below

Right:
Photo of Louise that appeared in the
Grampians Select Guide by Simon Mentz &

Glenn Tempest

.

Q: Your siblings Chris and Lincoln also
got into the sport and, like you, went on to put up numerous new routes
both in South Australia and Victoria in the early 80s. Can you describe
the dynamics of this group in relation to climbing? Was it a competitive
environment?

It
wasn't actually that competitive; it was more co-operative. When I started
climbing I was twenty and my little brother Chris was only 15. He was
getting into a bit of trouble at home and school and stuff. So I took him
climbing and he really liked it and did quite well. Then later on he took
my other brother Lincoln climbing. It has been a bit competitive over the
years, but not as much as with other people outside the family.

I do remember on my first overseas trip, in Yosemite Valley, in 1980, I
got a letter from my brother Chris saying he'd just led Squeakeasy (22),
and I was jealous because I'd wanted to do it; I was probably leading
about grade 20 at the time and here was my little brother leading grade
22. I had this little pang of jealousy.

I'm convinced that my brothers are better climbers than me, and yet the
other day I was staggered that Lincoln said, in the course of
conversation, "oh no Louise was always the best climber of the family".
But my perception was that they were always the better. [laughs]. So yeah,
it wasn't competitive, no. It was much more co-operative I think.

I remember one of Glen Robbins' photos of my brother Lincoln on Yesterday
(26+), and I never got up Yesterday. I tried it a couple of times and
felt, nar, I can't do it. Lincoln got up it second shot or something. This
fantastic photo of Lincoln on the crux. Just this amazing body. Because it
was so overhanging all you see is shoulders and this little torso
disappearing underneath. It's just a beautiful photo. So I was really
proud of them, of what they did climbing.

Q: I understand you also climbed a lot
with Kim Carrigan who was pushing the forefront of grades in Australia at
around the same time you were advancing the women's standards
considerably. You also climbed with the likes of Steve Monks, Simon Mentz,
and a whole swag of other well known characters. What are your most vivid
memories of some of your climbing partners and did they have any influence
on your climbing progress?

Kim Carrigan was definitely the biggest influence no doubt because it was
early on. He and I got together after I'd been climbing only maybe less
than a year. I first met him at Arapiles and then I went up to Mt Buffalo.
I remember he was at Buffalo climbing this big corner and bridging. It was
maybe grade 20 or something. And he wasn't wearing any undies! [laughs]...
This is before we got together. Anyway, he was definitely a very powerful
influence in my life. When I first got into climbing he was already
starting to free Procol Harum (26) and things like that. He was very
bohemian. He had this afro, that was like out here [gestures]. It was
really quite stunning. After we got together he chopped it off short. But
I remember this big afro and this little circle of admirers. [laughs].

But
yeah he actually encouraged me to climb with other women. We were about
the same age, but he started climbing five years beforehand. When we first
went to Yosemite Valley, he'd been there before, and he said "well don't
expect me to climb with you, you'll need to find your own climbing
partners. I'm climbing much better and I'm going to be doing this, this
and this...". And I was a bit crestfallen, but then he did encourage me to
find my own climbing partners and climb with other women. I met Evelyn
Lees on that trip and we did lots and lots of climbing together. That's
when my climbing really took off I think. We just went travelling
together, went to a whole bunch of climbing areas in the States. I came
back to Australia and she came over for a visit. So we climbed quite a lot
together.

The climbing culture then was a lot different. If I did something well
there was acknowledgement of that, but then it was "well now you can do
something harder, or something better". So there wasn't this celebratory
nature to climbing back then that there is as much now. You go climbing
with someone now and they do their first grade 18 lead and someone will
say "great, well done!". Back then it was much more muted. I didn't get a
sense I was doing anything special. It was just like "you're a normal
climber like the rest of us".

Above Right: Louise on Wackford Squeers
(26),
Arapiles. Below

Right: Louise on Life in the Fast Lane (24), Arapiles. Photos from
the David Clarke Collection.

Q: You are attributed as having climbed
near the top of the women's standard during the 1980's, in particular
being possibly the first woman to lead grade 26 onsight. Tales Of Power
(26/27) and Separate Reality (26) in the US, London Wall (25) and Lord Of
The Flies (26) in the UK, and at home the first onsight ascent of Trojan
(25) at Arapiles in 1981 and a one fall ascent of Denim (26) also at
Arapiles. These are impressive achievements, especially considering that I
believe most were done onsight, ground up, placing gear on lead. What
motivated your level of success? Did your accomplishments change the way
other climbers perceived you?

Absolutely not! No, not at all. I mean I knew I was doing some pretty good
stuff and certainly when I did Trojan (25) it was a bit like that because
the reaction from the male climbing scene was a little bit huffy.
[laughs]. I did it with my brother Chris. We'd done a new route in the
morning that he'd bolted and scoped out called Top Cat (24), and then in
the afternoon we were going to do Trojan. I led it first and put the gear
in without falls, and then my brother Chris lead it without falls as well,
and he was sketching a bit on the top. And Kim (I think he'd been climbing
with Evelyn), came around and took that photo - I don't know if you've
seen it, the photo that was on the front cover of Rock, (Or 4th issue of
Wild, or something), of me on the crux of Trojan, because Kim happened to
be walking past at the time and had his camera on him. Then Mark Morehead
said to me afterwards "I suppose we'd better start taking you seriously as
a climber now!". [laughs]. I don't know if he was being serious or not but
you couldn't tell with Mark Morehead, he had a very good sense of humour,
but he could have been tongue in cheek. But even tongue in cheek has a
serious side to it, like the shadow. But I never found out, because then
he died the next year.

With
Steve Monks and Simon Mentz I was much more established in climbing then -
an established place in the climbing scene. So we were much more climbing
as equals, even though they were both climbing better than I was at the
time, because by then I'd kind of reached my peak and was levelling off a
bit, or going downhill a bit. But even so we were climbing much more as
equals with those guys. With Tales of Power and Separate Reality, about 4
years later after I'd done them - I'd flashed Separate Reality, it's not
really 26 it's more like 24. Tales Of Power is more like 26/27. I had one
fall on Tales of Power, and didn't have any falls on Separate Reality, I
did it ground up placing all the pro on lead, but I had heard 4 years
later something about a German women called Andrea (I can't remember her
second name), claimed the first female ascents of these climbs, and I was
like "hang on a sec I did them back in 1980, what's going on?". And the
thing was that because there was no big deal about it, nobody said "oh,
first female ascent" or whatever. I mean there wasn't even something
special about there being a first female ascent. That wasn't something
that was even mentioned. There was no such thing. It was just like "oh,
you did that climb, you're a climber, other people have done it". You
know? The fact that you're a female was not even considered to be
particularly noteworthy. So I didn't make a big deal of it, because no one
around me made a big deal of it. It was like the whole culture of climbing
was much more muted and understated.

Now people are trying to jockey to make a name for themselves, and I don't
blame them. That's just the reality of life today, that people are out
there trying to make a name for themselves, and there's money in it,
there's sponsorship in it, there's all sorts of rewards in it. So they
need to emphasise these things, but back then it just wasn't the culture.
That's how I see it anyway.

So all of these climbs you've mentioned here were all onsight, climbed
from the ground up, placing protection onsight. With Lord of the Flies
there was a guy who had climbed this earlier in the day, but I just can't
remember watching him do it. When he came down, Paul Williams, who since
died, but I was staying at his place and he was kind of hosting me and
showing me a bit of the crag, he said "oh, this is what", (I think his
name was Graham Livingstone), "this is what he took on the climb", you
know "this is the rack you need". And I probably added a few extra things
as well. I do remember when I got to the top of that Graham seconded it in
his sandshoes! [laughs]. There was probably a little more fuss about that
because it was a big known climb, but most of the other climbs I did it
was like "oh yeah". I was just climbing well and there was no special
attention paid to it at the time.

With Denim I was a bit disappointed because I fell off on the bottom roof,
and I came down and had a rest, and then I got past the roof and flashed
the crux. So it was like "oh bummer, I shouldn't have fallen off that low
roof". But that's the way it goes.

Q. You don't consider yourself to be a
bold climber, but your stylish ascents of Lois Lane (23) at Arapiles and
Lord of the Flies (E6) in Wales would indicate otherwise. How would you
describe your approach in tackling dangerous, or 'reputation' climbs?

No I still don't consider myself a bold climber. How I approached those
routes was, I was either convinced by other people or myself that they
weren't bold climbs. If I'd known that there was the possibility of ground
fall on Lord Of The Flies there's no way I would have even gone on it.
Paul Williams said, "look, take double ropes, put a high runner in Right
Wall and you'll be fine. There's gear up it". And I said "okay". Indeed I
did find gear all the way up it. I didn't find that I was going to deck
out on that climb. I felt pretty secure and pretty solid.

Lois Lane... I reckon the reason Lois Lane has got such a big reputation
is because a really well known climber (I can't remember his name), took a
fall off it and hit the ground, but he didn't take RPs. I do remember
feeling pretty secure on it. Perhaps at the time when I did Lois Lane I
was leading grade 26 and 23 was like, oh yeah, okay it's a bit bold, but
it's well within my abilities.

Q: What are your thoughts on the high
end climbing being done now-a-days that often sees "leads" on pre-placed
gear after countless days of working the route?

Yeah look, I mean, I don't really care. If people want to do that, that's
fine. It doesn't bother me. Personally I think, for myself, the most
satisfying way of climbing is ground up, placing all your pro. That's
where the excitement comes in. That's where you're really tested. You've
got to work out the move under the pressure of falling off. If you already
know what the move is, and you know you're not going to fall of it, or
you've got a pretty good chance you're not going to fall off it, because
you've practised it a million times, well...that's fine if that's the way
you want to do it, but that is not what's satisfying to me.

I remember when Wolfgang was doing the first ascent of Punks In The Gym
(31) [Arapiles], purely for convenience he was trying the moves on a fixed
line and when he came back, when he'd got the moves worked out, he came
from the ground up. But Wolfgang was an incredibly accomplished climber. I
think he just did it purely because he didn't want to bore a belayer for
days and days on end, holding his rope while he worked on this extreme
climb. I mean at the time that was the hardest climb in the world.
Probably something that is not so recognised now, but it was a phenomenal
ascent.

Q: Do you have any feelings about the
more shady practices such as chipping, or forcibly "cleaning" holds to
contrive a particular sequence?

Yeah, I do feel much more strongly about that. It's kind of funny because
in some ways I can understand where people come from when they do
chipping. I presume they are trying to make the climb... Not necessarily
bring the climb down to their level. They might be doing that. In which
case it's just wrong. It's wrong anyway, but in trying to bring a climb
into... to make it a more sustained route or to make it a climb that's of
a more even grade, instead of just being say, grade 15 and then one
desperate move of grade 20. Like a one move wonder. It's the same in the
higher grades, like being 25 all the way, then one desperate move of grade
29. I guess that's the motivation behind chipping.

Personally I'm against it. I'm
against all chipping and forcible cleaning. But I do understand why...
like on Punks In The Gym there was a hold that apparently was a flake that
came off. Whether it was forcibly cleaned or whatever, a flake came off
and the edge underneath it was crumbly, so it was araldited up by Andy
Pollitt. That's the story. On the 2nd or 3rd ascent or something. If that
edge was going to crumble away there'd be no climb there at all. So I
suppose sometimes I can understand why people do these things, but
generally speaking I'm against it. It's shady. It's interfering too much.

Q: One of the areas in the Grampians in
which you've been very active is The Fortress, where you put up Raving
Lonnies (24) with with Steve Monks and Nyrie Dodd and all but the last
pitch of Ticket To Retirement (26) also with Steve Monks in 1986, and
which Carrigan eventually completed. The latter route is described as a
"sustained and scary undertaking", while the former gains the remarks
"wild and scary" in the Gramps Select Guide. 110m of overhanging hand
cracks and exposed flakes? What was it about these, now starred classics,
that first attracted you? Would you say that bold, strenuous climbing
suited your style?

Well again I'd say definitely not. The climb Raving Loonies I led the
first pitch which is actually really well protected. It was the crux pitch
but it was a crack and it had really good pro in it. Steve Monks led the
second pitch which he graded 23, which was a scary pitch on loose flakes,
which I think 23 was a bit suss, it was probably undergraded, it was more
like 24. In terms of leading it was probably more difficult than the first
pitch because it was much scarier.

Ticket To Retirement, well Steve led the crux pitch of that, both crux
pitches of that in fact. He led the 1st pitch which was really quite
scary. I led the 2nd pitch which was 19 and really well protected, so I'm
afraid my reputation vanishes in a second there! [laughs].

Q: Also that year at The Fortress I
believe you belayed Nyrie Dodd on the FFA of the famous Passport To
Insanity (27), heralded as one of the best lines in Australia? Can you
tell us the tale of her ascent? How did she fare on the downward sloping,
beyond overhanging roof? Also what's the go with money still owing on a
bet?

The first ascent which was aided was back in the 70's by a local guy
called Noddy - Keith Lockwood and Joe Friend. Then a whole bunch of people
tried to free the roof, which is the crux pitch. It's about a number 2
friend size for the first couple of metres then it widens slightly to a
2.5 friend size, so it's very tight hands, and Nyrie could hand jam
perfectly in a number 2 friend crack, so she decided that this was the
climb for her. [laughs] Fair enough!

Anyway, we went back to the climb three consecutive years and she tried it
for a couple of days on each year that she went. In between times she
practised on an overhanging jam crack on her veranda or something. She sort
of got it sussed out a bit better each time she tried it and the third
year we went back she did it.

I think it was a climb that was ideally suited to her body size and shape
in the sense that she's a very light build and she could get good hand
jams in it. But I think it was utterly ridiculous that Chris Baxter graded
it 24 to 28 depending on your hand size. He wouldn't dream of questioning
a tall male climber who'd done a climb saying that it was 24 to 28
depending on your reach, or something like that, you know? Chris Baxter is
a product of his times and it was reflected in his indignation that a
female did the first ascent of this really notable, classic climb.

Q: What about the bet? What was that
about?

Oh yeah, so when she did the roof, and when she got onto the ledge above
the roof, she found this little bottle and inside it was a note and the
note said (I've got a photo of it, it's great)... "you must have just
freed the route Passport to Insanity, otherwise why are you here? $200
reward for the first person who's freed the roof. Signed Joe Friend &
Noddy". And Noddy lives in Nati, so as soon as we got back down she
trotted around to Noddy's place and said "look at this note, where's my
200 bucks?". Or was it 500? I can't remember. And he said "I have never
seen that note! I didn't write that!". [laughs]

Joe Friend had disappeared, God knows where he'd gone. So she made it
known around that he owed her 500 bucks, and apparently he published in
some magazine that he wasn't going to pay her because (this is outrageous
[laughs])... because number 1, she'd used chalk! [laughs] and number two
she probably hadn't freed it anyway. Which is complete nonsense because
she had two witnesses. Steve Monks and I were there when she did it. So it
was all bullshit. But anyway, at Escalade I was telling the story. I was
giving a slide show, oh back in the 90s. And I had some pictures of Nyrie
on Passport and a picture of the note, and I told them the story, and
later on it turns out that Joe Friend was actually in the audience
[laughs], and Jon Muir was sitting right next to him. Jon and I are good
friends, and Jon noticed it because the person next to him was getting
very fidgety and when finally it came to this story, he walked out!
[laughs]. It was quite priceless really. So he deserves all the flak he
gets, really. But she's not going to get her money or anything.

But it's interesting that climb, because when Malcolm Matheson did the
second ascent he mainly used the features on the other side of the roof to
climb (he probably did some jamming), because he couldn't fit his hands in
the crack. The third ascent was done by Jill McLeod, who's also very tiny
and probably got some good hand jams, and the fourth ascent was done by
Lynn Hill. So three out of the four first ascents have been done by women.
Small women at that. It certainly is a climb that does favour small boned
women with small hands. When Malcolm did it he graded it 26, but Malcolm
he under-grades everything. I mean really. It's not bloody 26! Anyone
going up there who's climbing 26 wouldn't do it and say "oh yeah, it's
26". Especially if you're his size, it's seriously difficult. He's a
bloody good climber, but he worked on it for a couple of days anyway, and
he was probably climbing grade 30 at the time. Yeah, it's not grade 26, I
think 27/28 would be a fair grade for it.

Q: You've climbed a lot overseas
including New Zealand, Europe, Himalayas and the USA. What are some of
your most memorable trips or moments from these adventures?

Oh, there are so many. I went to New Zealand mountaineering. I mean
mountaineering really lends itself to epic adventures and nightmares
really. I went to New Zealand with Jon Muir to do some mountaineering. I was
totally a beginner, and I went with another girlfriend who was also a
complete beginner. Anyway we ended up rescuing a guy off Mt Cook. He sort
of joined our party in a way. He bivied with us and then he took off the
next morning and we were much slower, because we were all roped up and he
was soloing.

We got to the low summit of Mt Cook and he got to the high summit. Anyway,
as he was descending he fell off and he hit rocks and really mashed
himself up. We were coming down more slowly and we saw this figure
wandering around on the Empress Shelf, it was him, he'd fallen off and
he'd mashed himself up so badly that his eyes were closed because they
were swollen, and he'd broken his nose and oh, he was a mess! It was about
10 o'clock so it was almost completely dark when we came across him and it
was like seeing this devil out of hell. I remember him turning around when
he heard us coming and his face was just all blood. Jon was next to me and
we looked at each other and went "oh, gosh".

So anyway, Andrea and I looked after this guy for the night while Jon went
to get the helicopter. On the way to get the helicopter, to Empress Hut,
Jon fell into 13 crevasses! Climbed out of all of them. Anyway, the
helicopter came the next morning. Jon stayed in the hut. Andrea and I put
him [the wounded guy] into two sleeping bags and got into one ourselves.
It was a pretty uncomfortable night. I remember worrying about Jon,
thinking "oh, I hope he made it". But anyway, the helicopter came the next
day and took us all off. So we didn't have to walk back down.

Q: That guy's probably alive because of
you?

Yeah, he could well have died up there. We were the only ones up there at
the time. They were cleaning him up before they sent him to hospital for
some reason, and I just knew I was going to faint, because I've got a weak
stomach. So I lay down, because I thought, I was going to faint if I stay
standing up. But anyway, I should have been warned not to go to the
mountains, but the next year I went with Jon again, and a bunch of friends
from Natimuk. We were climbing Kedernarth Dome, which is a very, very easy
mountain. I don't know how high it is, but not very much over 6000 metres.
And because I was suffering from altitude sickness I got split up from the
rest of the group, with a couple of other novice mountaineers, and anyway,
we ended up... I was avalanched off the mountain [laughs].

It was like late in the afternoon. I came out of the snow cave to unbury
some stuff that had been buried by snow drift, like our packs and stuff
which couldn't fit in the snow cave and an avalanche came down - sent me
down the mountain. I bounced over some ice cliffs and ended up like just a
few metres away from this bottomless crevasse! And they came out to look
for me. They saw I'd disappeared so they started digging for me. They
thought I'd been buried by the avalanche. So I yelled out to them "I'm
here!". Everyone's totally freaked out, because we are all beginners. We
have no idea. [laughs]. What we should have done was go back up the
mountain into the snow cave. That would have been the safest thing, but we
just freaked out. We were novices, so we grabbed our gear and started
heading down the mountain, and of course, it was avalanching all around
us. We thought we were going to die if we stayed in this, so we are
walking down and this big avalanche comes down right in front of us. We
see this tiny little spec of rock up the hillside and we just dive under
this rock. The avalanche comes over the rock, just as we dived underneath
it! [laughs]. Oh, it was just an epic!

And Jon was up there high on the mountain with Lydia Brady and they had an
even worse epic. I mean, much worse! They were coming down the front face,
which was even worse than our face and they decided to shelter for the
night. They made this cave in this wall of ice, and Lydia had just crawled
inside it when the whole thing collapsed on top of her. Jon started
digging for her and saw this hand come out, grabbed her hand and just
yanked her out. I mean it was just extraordinary. It was just amazing that
none of us died up there. It was quite extreme, but anyway, we all managed
to survive. Anyway, that was the end of my mountaineering! [laughs]. After
that it was like, "nar I don't think I'm going to go mountaineering
anymore".

Actually, ever since that trip, what I do in the winters now is I go up to
Kakadu and the Kimberly. It's nice and it's warm, and it never rains. If
you go bush walking, hiking and scrambling around these really remote
areas you can guarantee not to see another person the whole time you're
out there. I've just come back from the Kimberly. I was there for two
months. You don't see anybody. You can walk out for two weeks with two
items of clothing. It's just perfect. No tent, just a mosquito net, that's
about all you need. It's lush. It's very different from mountaineering.

Q:
What style of climbing do you pursue the most, be it sport, trad, ice,
aid, etc?

Yeah I have done some sport climbing, but mainly trad. Sport climbing is
fine, I like it actually in some ways. You can sort of take your brain out
and just clip bolts. It hasn't got the same challenge as trad climbing.
What I like about trad climbing is that it's a different experience for
every single climber, as in when you choose to stop and protect yourself.
It's just a lot more judgement involved in trad climbing which I really
like.

Yeah I do a lot of bush walking up north. I'm thinking about trying out
sea kayaking.

Q: I think I read a book about Jon
dragging a kayak to the North Pole or something?

Yeah, that's right. He did that. Yeah, he's done a lot of stuff. Actually
there was a documentary the other week [on the ABC] of him walking across
Australia.

Q: Yeah I saw that. That was excellent.
A great show.

Yeah, we did a desert walk first in 95. It was the first desert walk that
he'd done and he invited me along for the ride and we walked across the
Simpson Desert. I mean it was nothing like what he did. We had food drops
and water drops every single night, that we'd pre-buried. We'd driven
through the area with some friends and pre-buried all this stuff. So it
was really cruisey, but a nice way to experience the Simpson Desert. It
was great.

Q: You are mentioned in the intro to the
Verdon Gorge (France) guide as one of a fairly small number of
"significant players" in the development of the climbing there - I'd be
interested to know more about what you did there - and why it appealed
given that you must have spent a fair bit of time there?

I must say I'm just completely mystified. I can't imagine how I was a
"significant player" in the Verdon Gorge. I really don't think I did much
at all. I was there for maybe a couple of weeks. I certainly didn't do any
new routes. I didn't do any repeats that I thought were all that
significant.

Q: Well, that question was sent in by
someone else so maybe they got their facts wrong.

Well maybe it's in the guide book. In 83, I went to one of the first
international climbing meets to be held in France and we went to Verdon
Gorge, and a couple of other places. I remember I climbed with Stefan
Glowacz [spelling?], well before he became a famous climber. We were doing
a climb that wasn't that difficult, it was maybe graded 22. I thought it
was actually way harder than that. I can't even remember the name of it. I
got super pumped and got up to the crux and I just took this enormous
whipper off it and there was someone filming at the time, so maybe it was
a reference to that I don't know.

Q: In 1994 you published your "climbers
guide to Arapiles/Djurite" with a 2nd edition in 98. An impressive and
useful guide, my copy is well thumbed. That must have been a hell of a lot
of work! Where did you find the time and motivation?

Well it took me a long time, probably 8 years or something. The only thing
I do regret about that guide is that there should be more photographs.
Simon Mentz's guide is obviously a lot more user friendly, because it's
got a lot more photographs of the cliffs and little lines marked, and
stuff like that. So I do regret that I didn't put more effort into that
side of it. I was maybe thinking of the descriptions and things like that.

Q: But yours is more comprehensive?

Yeah, his is a selected guide, but he has got most of the best routes in
it really. Mine is a comprehensive guide, but it is much more difficult to
use and I acknowledge that. And that's really the only regret.

Q: After the publication you received
some criticism from the climbing establishment, particularly for the
decisions to upgrade a number of routes, and to a lesser extent for
including too many pictures of female climbers. At the time did you resent
this criticism, given the huge amount of effort you must have expended
producing this work?

All this hoo-ha about criticism from the climbing establishment, I mean
that's just bullshit. I had too many pictures of women climbers? They have
no idea. That is such a stupid criticism. To celebrate women climbers... I
mean it happens in the climbing mags now anyway.

Q: So people did actually criticise you
for that?

Oh Baxter did. But Baxter knows what sells. What does he have on the front
cover of all Wild magazines? Invariably it's a female. Invariably she's
got a wet T-shirt on - she's been canyoning. I mean for Baxter to do that
is just ludicrous.

I remember I had a New Zealand client who at the time I was guiding and he
thought the criticism was just nonsensical. To have perhaps 50% of the
photos depicting women climbers, when women don't represent 50% of the
climbing population, he says it's simply not an argument. What about
affirmative action? What about any of the other actions that are done by
governments and companies these days to try and redress the balances
because we live in a patriarchal sexist society? I mean, it's complete
nonsense. It's not a valid criticism.

Q: Well hopefully it encouraged more
women into the sport?

Exactly. I mean that was the whole idea. To be celebratory of women
climbers. I think it was actually about 50/50, the photos of male and
female climbers.

Q: Did you realise that your climbing
achievements would serve to motivate others (men and women included) and
if so, do you hold a certain pride in your contribution to Australian rock
climbing?

Yeah I do. I didn't actually
realise how motivating it would be to other women, but a friend of mine in
New Zealand wrote a little piece about a visit that I did to New Zealand
and how it motivated her and her climbing. So I do acknowledge that my
climbing achievements have motivated others and I'm proud of that. But
like I said it's the culture of climbing back in the early 80's was much
more muted and understated than it is now. There's a sort of sense of
retrospective pride.

Right: Photo of Louise that appeared
in the Arapiles Select Guide by Simon Mentz & Glenn Tempest.

Q: What are your thoughts on women's
issues in climbing today, if any? Are there any differences from what you
faced when you were climbing at your peak level?

It's just equality and recognition that women are climbing extremely well
these days, as well as if not better than a lot of men. There are so many
top women climbers in the world today that have done incredibly
significant things. Climbing is a sport that equalises men and women,
because women have got some strengths that men don't and visa versa. It's
something that women can excel at on a level playing field as men really.
I think it's quite extraordinary. Like Lynn Hill's achievements on freeing
The Nose [of El Captain, Yosemite in the US]. I mean people might say it's
something that specifically suits her body, and people have made the same
comment about Nyrie on Passport To Insanity.... I mean the rock doesn't
care. It's something that I think is quite remarkable. There's not many
sports where there are those possibilities of equality on the rock. A
different climb suits one body type and another climb suits another body
type. I think it's terrific.

Q: Climbing would seem to share
similarities with gymnastics, a sport where the best performers are often
females in their early teens. Could we see a time when the best climber in
the world is a 14 year old girl?

Yeah possibly. I think that does actually focus on the technical aspects
of climbing. Climbing is a multi-faceted sport. It's hard to actually pin
point who is the best climber in the world. At any one time there's
probably 100 "best climbers in the world" who have all got a particular
strength in one area or another, like a particular type of rock, or
bouldering, or whatever.

Q: You have been teaching climbing for
more than 18 years and I understand you are one of the instructors on the

ACIA(Australian Climbing
Instructors Association) courses? Can you tell us a little about what the
CIA offers and your role in it? Have you enjoyed your involvement?

Yeah I have enjoyed my involvement with it. It's been difficult at times.
We started up the CIA (it's now the ACIA), back in 91 or something, 92
perhaps. It was after there was a spate of climbing accidents in Victoria.
There was three deaths at Mt Arapiles in 1990 and there was two deaths and
14 injuries in one accident at Lal Lal Falls, just near Ballarat. There
was a coroners inquest into it. The guidebook says the cliff is shitty and
loose. It says, "wear a helmet when you go there", and "go in a small
group", et cetera. It's basically just some big blocks set into this
eroded hillside, and one of the kids pulled off a huge block which killed
two kids and injured 14 others from the shrapnel that came off. Serious
accident.

But the three climbing accidents at Arapiles were not people that were
under instruction at the time. They were recreational climbers. One of
them was instructing and he slipped from the top of the cliff, but all the
others were recreational climbers. Which is a crucial difference I think,
because there's not been any deaths or accidents, as far as I know, of
anyone at Arapiles while they have been guided or instructed. So anyway,
there was a coroners inquest into these climbing deaths and the coroner
said, "Look, the climbing community has got to come up with something to
deal with this issue of climbing safety". And so we started up the CIA as
a training course in response to that inquest.

It's difficult with this public liability insurance. It's been difficult
for us as a commercial company (The Climbing Company). There's been some
really difficult times in it, but it's been very positive I think. It's
had a good impact on the climbing community and the climbing scene and
instruction and guiding in general, and just general safety. There's more
awareness now. Not directly as a result of the CIA, maybe, but it's part
of the whole culture of growing awareness of rock climbing safety. There's
been deaths at Arapiles and in Victoria since then. Probably it's had more
impact in the guiding and instructional sense.

Q:
You founded a guiding company called "The
Climbing Company"
with Chris Peisker that operates out of Natimuk near Mt Arapiles. You run climbing courses I
believe? Are you directly involved with these?
What kinds of clients does the business generally attract?

Chris Peisker and I started The
Climbing Company. We had two other business partners at the time, but we
started The Climbing Company and the Arapiles Mountain Shop at the same
time more or less, back in 88. So that's sixteen years ago. We soon after
split it into two companies. Chris and I stayed with The Climbing Company
and Phil and Heather run the climbing shop. We take anyone climbing who
wants to pay. So, school students to tertiary students. We've had private
clients from the gyms in Melbourne, overseas visitors, backpackers, people
passing through - anything and anybody who wants to try climbing.

The beauty of Mt Arapiles is that it's really the most perfect place to
take people climbing because there's such a range of easy to difficult
climbs. You've got grade ones that are 8m high. You've got grade 3s that
are 200m high. It's perfect for kids without climbing shoes. If they want
to do a multi-pitch you can take them up Tip Toe Ridge in sandshoes - it's
perfect for that. I feel so lucky to have started up a guiding company
here. I didn't really appreciate it when I was climbing hard in the 80's,
but as a guide it's just absolutely phenomenal. It's one of the best
places in the world for instructing people.

So yeah, it's a good job. I'm outdoors a lot. You know, it's not so great
when it's pouring down with rain [laughs], but its fantastic to be
outdoors. It's a real people job, so you're interacting with people. You
put aside your own climbing ambitions. Just forget it. It's not to do with
your own personal climbing at all. It's to do with trying to find the best
climb for these people that you've got, and it's very satisfying when you
chose exactly the right climb that's going to challenge them but it's not
going to be too difficult for them. There's two and half thousand climbs
at Arapiles, so there's so much to choose from. Yeah, it's a great job and
The Climbing Company is doing well.

Above: Louise in more recent
times, guiding at Arapiles. Photos from Louise's own collection.

Q: Well they can't ask for a better
person than the one who wrote the guidebook?

Yeah, maybe it's that. [laughs]. It certainly helps to know Arapiles like
the back of your hand, but people who are committed to trying to do the
best for their client [make the best guides]. Our best guides, the people
who get asked all the time, are the ones who are outgoing and friendly and
interested in those people. And they don't have to be climbing the
hardest. Glen's one our best guides, and he climbs about grade 21, but
he's enthusiastic, he's friendly, he's outgoing. People always ask for
him.

Q: What type of guiding do you prefer
the most (eg. easy multi-pitch vs backpacker groups vs slightly more
difficult stuff)?

To be truthful, I'm a bit of a
control freak. I like to guide on climbs I'm familiar with. I don't like
guiding onsight. The nature of Arapiles is that, even though there is two
and a half thousand climbs, you do tend to guide the same climbs over and
over again. I do like to do climbs, you know, the easy multi-pitch -
that's fun! That's really satisfying to take people up Introductory Route
(4, 160m) or Spiral Staircase (9, 100m) or something like that, a really
classic route. They are struggling a bit, but they just get up there and
they feel so great when they get to the top of it.

Q: Do they get freaked on the 50m free
hanging abseil off the back of it [Spiral Staircase]?

Yeah, sometimes they do! But no, I've never had anyone totally freak out
on me. I prefer to be in control when guiding. I don't want to be pushed.
I was guiding two South Africans a few weeks ago. They'd never been on
real rock before but they were so fit! I was totally stuffed by the end of
the weekend! [laughs]. We did 15 pitches in two days. It was great!
[laughs].

Q: Well you could always put a top rope
on something?

Yeah, we did in the end. That's the obvious solution.

Q: You must see a lot of new climbers,
is there a particular "type" or trait that you can recognise early on as
an indicator of later success as a climber?

Well it depends on how you define success. Like I said, I define success
as when you get somebody up a climb who thought that they couldn't do it
and they get to the top and feel a great sense of achievement. That's a
success for me. I don't think there's a particular type or trait. I mean,
obviously people who are a lighter build have got some advantages in the
power to weight ratio, but even then you get some people who climb very
well and they are of a chunkier build. Climbing is in the head as much as
in the body.

Q: Given that we are currently in the
Olympic era, what are your thoughts on the proposed inclusion of Rock
Climbing in the summer Olympics? Do you feel this is appropriate? Do you
think it will change the direction of the sport, and if so, would it be
for the better?

Indoor climbing is fabulous for people in cities. All over body fitness.
Climbing on a vertical face, indoors, works lots of muscle groups. I think
it's great. Indoor climbing has a really good place. But personally I'm
not into it and if they have it in the Olympics, well it would be
interesting to watch it, but I'm not going to be holding my breath.

Q: When you were at your peak, did you
have a training regime? Is there anything in that regard that you would do
differently if you had your time over again?

Nar, I just went climbing.

Q: What about volume of climbing that
you did?

Oh, yeah I did lots and lots of climbing, but I didn't have any particular
regime. I didn't even have rest days. I mean I did have rest days, but it
wasn't like this scientific thing.... Did a little bit of training with
Kim Carrigan back in the early days, but... nar nothing. I wasn't even
into bouldering. I just climbed.

Q: I suppose you were living here [At
Natimuk], so you were quite close to the climbing?

Yeah. I was living here, or travelling and climbing all the time. So yeah,
pretty much for 8 years I just climbed. I didn't do much else. I did a
little bit of work here and there to support my habit! [laughs],

Q: Do you have a different perspective
on risk in climbing now than you did, say at age 21?

Oh yeah, there's a big difference now! [laughs]. Definitely. I'm much less
willing to take risks than I was at 21. In fact I've got this theory that
I could really only take risks during one phase, when I was 21, when I was
just getting into climbing.

For me I think that I could really only go though that once. From the
perspective I have now, when I look back, I don't think that I could go
through that in another sport, like, say, white water kayaking, or
something like that. I just don't think I could do it again. Because I
know how many risks I took that I was completely unaware of when I was 21
or 22 in climbing. But I wasn't aware of them at the time, which is a
horrendous thing. I was lucky I didn't die! Then by the time I got the
experience I was quite safe and I'm actually a fairly conservative
climber. I don't think I'm that bold. But the danger bit was in that
really early period, and I don't think I could do that again with
something else. I've got so much knowledge now of the risks I took. I
think that's definitely something that's associated with youth for me!

Q: What does climbing provide you with
most now-a-days? (Fitness, friends, challenge, adventure..?).

It's all of those things really. I like going climbing with friends. It's
great to have a social day out. Like the other day I went out with two
mates and we did a climb that I've guided heaps of times, but they'd never
done it and they were checking it out for guiding. So we just did that. It
was fun.

So it's a good way of connecting with friends. For guiding it's great to
be involved in your own personal climbing because you can relate more to
what your clients are going through. If you've been struggling last week
on, say a grade 20, and then you're guiding somebody on a grade 10 you can
relate much more to their struggle if you've been though it yourself. And
it's good for your own overall fitness, and your head. So it's good for
work, it's good for fitness. And then now-and-then, when I do get a bit
more enthused about climbing and I put more effort into it and I start to
go and do climbs that I haven't done before in the Grampians, say, which I
was doing last year - yeah all the same stuff is there that ever was
there. The challenge, the adventure, working things out on lead, all that
stuff, it's still there.

Q: I also understand that you are
passionate about environmental issues and take an active role in the
Wimmera area. Do you have particular projects that you are involved with
in this regard? What do you see as the most significant environmental
issue in climbing today?

Yeah, I'm really interested in that. I've co-ordinated a few tree
plantings and tree waterings around the Wimmera, Nati Lake, out at the
Mount, Natimuk railway line, etc.

I support rappel points on the cliff, so that trashing of descent gullies
is minimised. It's great to get to the top of the cliff, but whether you
walk down or abseil down it's still part of the whole adventure of getting
there, getting up, getting back down again. It's different from sport
climbing. It's not like you're taking someone off climbing and just
lowering them off. You're actually doing the whole thing.

So I think, probably erosion control is really a major issue. Bolting and
chalk and stuff - they are issues, but they are not as significant as the
erosion.

Q: The erosion caused by traffic?

Yeah, by traffic at the bottom of the cliff, top and gullies. And the
camping areas, they get really trashed because there's lots of people just
wandering around and over them all the time. So to me, that's much more
significant than chalk and bolting. Chalk is pretty ugly and sometimes
bolting can be really ugly too, but I think it's more that macro stuff
than micro stuff personally.

Q: You're an active member of the
"Friends of Mt Arapiles/Tooan State Park" I believe? Can you tell us a
little about what this organisation does, and perhaps how others might
become involved?

Like I said we've done tree planting. We get the kids involved too. We
have lots of school groups coming up and we get them out there watering
the trees we planted. It's fantastic! They get to spend an hour at the end
of a hot day throwing a bit of water around and we get our trees watered.
And the teachers love it. The teachers love having the kids doing
something at the end of the day that is community minded. They put it in
their school newsletter. The school gets some kudos in the local newspaper
or whatever. It's good.

Right: School children watering plants. Photo from
Louise's collection.

Q: I read somewhere about an episode
with Friends Of Arapiles, in May this year where you had to abseil down a
cliff fully clad in a bee suit and with a backpack full of petrol
containers. What was the story there?

We've got a problem with feral bees at Arapiles. Feral bees are European
Honey Bees that have escaped the hive. They have hives all around the back
of the mountain, some apiarists are allowed to have them there, and some
of them escape. I've noticed over the years that they have spread to a lot
of rock hollows where birds nest, and possums. There are pardalotes and
even rosellas I've seen nesting in the rock hollows and there are possums.
So we decided that we should get rid of them and the ranger suggested
petrol, so we abseiled down the cliff one day. It was about 30 degrees
(probably a bit warm for doing this kind of thing!), and poured petrol
down this crack, and plugged it up with petrol soaked rags. The bees just
vanished. Eventually it would be good to clean out the old honey comb and
so make it available space for birds, and also native bees. The feral bees
they used up a lot of nectar that the honeyeaters would use and they also
displace the native bees, the little native stingless bees. So yeah, that
was fun.

Q: Can you give readers an appreciation
of the contrast between living in the small town of Natimuk, a few minutes
from either Arapiles or the Grampians, and the lifestyle that this offers
in comparison to say fighting your way home every night in the dark,
through endless traffic in the concrete jungle of a big city and dreaming
about climbing instead?

It's a lifestyle thing really. There's some things I have a yearning for
in the city. You can't see the same number of interesting alternative
films in Horsham that you get in the city. Culturally there's not nearly
the same choice as you get in the city. So I miss that. Whenever I go to
Melbourne I just see two or three films in a day. Just cram it all in. But
it's more than compensated for by the fact that it's a less hectic
lifestyle out here. You spend more time around at friends houses, drinking
cups of tea and talking and going for walks. You're not in the wilderness
exactly but a reasonably natural environment. It's cleaner. There's less
preoccupation with consumption living in the country. I spend more in the
city in a weekend than I spend in Natimuk in two months. There's just so
many things to spend your money on. There's just less of this obsession
with having the latest thing in country I think. So it's simpler
lifestyle.

I've got a great relationship with the farm down the road. In fact there's
a couple of farmers. There's one in SA that grows organic wheat. I buy
25kgs of organic wheat. I grind it myself in my brother's grinder, make
flour, my own sourdough bread. Then I go out to the local farm, the
organic farm just down the road here, and do a bit of work for them, get
my food, whatever they've got in season. So I'm not only eating in season,
but the freshest possible, best grown stuff. It's a barter system. It's
fantastic. You might not have the opportunity to do that in the city that
you do in the country. People may be more preoccupied with work in the
city.

We've got the beautiful mountain out there. We've got the Grampians just
down the road. The Little Desert. The Wimmera river. Lots of nice places
in the outdoors to explore.

Q: Having lived and worked close to Mt
Arapiles for years now, and having no doubt climbed all the 'classics'
numerous times, there would be no-one more authoritative in answering the
critical question: What is the best route at Mt Arapiles?

Well I would have to say my favourite climb, for me, is one of the climbs
I've got the most memories about: Arachnus (9, 123m). Probably because I
had a major epic on it when I was first leading grade 9. I went up there
and got benighted. I had this little drama on it and it's just stuck in my
brain ever since. Noddy has got a great description of Arachnus in his
guide, it says something about this classic that reminds him of the times
he climbed with a hemp rope, and two hemp slings and stuff like that.
That's just what it evokes for me, is my very early climbing and leading
days. I just got totally freaked out on the crux and thought there's no
holds. But you, know, there's holds everywhere. I mean, it is kind of
blankish, you do have to move around. But yeah, that's my favourite climb.

Q: Do you have a climbing hero/heroine?

Being a feminist I'd have to say it would be a heroine. I think Ann
Pauligk is one of the unsung heroines of Australian climbing. She did some
really impressive stuff back in the 70s and she's never really had much
acknowledgement for that. She led The Wraith, 21, a significant lead for
back in the mid 70s. She did Christian Crack (20) back when most people
climbing weren't getting up those climbs or were hanging and resting one
them. She led them stylishly. Bottom up, no inspection, no falls. Even
earlier than her were women like Dot Butler. I went to her slide show at
Escalade a few years ago - barefoot soloing on these new routes! I mean
quite extraordinary women, I think. So that would have to be my two
heroines.

Q: What does your future hold in terms
of climbing?

Don't know, just as long as I enjoy it! There's much more of an emphasis
on people staying fit as they age, and I think climbing is a great sport
for that. Walking to the crag you get some aerobic fitness, climbing gives
you muscular strength. So yeah, I can see myself climbing for a long time.
One of my best friends died rock climbing at the age of 67 - Dennis Kemp.
He was leading grade 20 and seconding grade 23 stylishly, at the age of
67. He's an inspiration.

Further Reading: The
Climbing Company - Guided climbing at Arapiles. Founded by Louise
Shepherd and Chris Peisker.
Rock Climbing In Australia - An interview of sorts with several
climbers including Louise on the ABC's website.Women Climbing: 200 Years of Achievement -
A chapter in this book profiles Louise.Outdoor Australia Magazine
(Feb/Mar 2004) - Contains a one page write up of Louise.