(28-07-2017 08:01 PM)Full Circle Wrote: I avoided listening to the address tRump gave to the BSA until today...the man has ZERO sense of place, restraint, decorum or self-control. I truly believe his mental health is at issue here. He is unfit to be a Boy Scout leader much less the POTUS.

He needs to be under psychiatric evaluation.

Yeah, that was bad. Today, though, he was worse, making a speech where he chides the police for not being brutal enough.

Actually it is far worse than that. He's the chief law enforcer per the Constitution. He was actually encouraging them to assault their suspects, and break the law (who are innocent until proven guilty). His ignorance of his role and the US system is SO profound, it's mind-boggling.

Insufferable know-it-all. God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.

(28-07-2017 08:23 PM)julep Wrote: Yeah, that was bad. Today, though, he was worse, making a speech where he chides the police for not being brutal enough.

Actually it far worse than that. He's the chief law enforcer per the Constitution. He was actually encouraging them to assault their suspects, and break the law (who are innocent until proven guilty). His ignorance of his role and the US system is SO profound, it's mind-boggling.

(28-07-2017 03:44 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote: Time to get rid of all of the Jeb Bush loving RNC cronies that came along with Reince Prebus. Spicer is gone so that's two. Probably a dozen more. Trying to destroy Trump from the inside because their boy Jeb lost. Round out the staff with former generals that won't leak to the media and harder for the media to attack.

What leaks, you were addimant the leaks were made up media lies to sell fake news

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"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson

(28-07-2017 09:15 PM)Dom Wrote: The local Police dept. there had to issue a statement declaring that their officers are trained in humane treatment of suspects and the department has and will fully enforce these rules.

You've got to at least appreciate that agencies from the Pentagon to a lowly municipal police department have in this week felt the need to disavow the Shitgibbon's pronouncements. If nothing else, we know that multiple levels of government stand against this cunt.

(23-07-2017 11:17 PM)morondog Wrote: I disagree. He's done unimaginable damage to the institutions of government. He's introduced the cancer of populism back into the political debate. Democracy is fundamentally based on trust in public institutions and the assumption that politicians of all stripes will put the interests of state ahead of their personal interests. Once that public trust is eroded and politicians start using their offices to settle scores and for short term political gain, that rot is very hard to reverse. Even if the originator of the rot disappears, he won't be the last populist right wing violence-monger that you guys see.

I've just watched the series on the brothers Gracchi on extra history. The parallels are eerie. And that democracy did not survive.

To further Morondog's point (also, that is an excellent history series), the brothers Gracchi were Roman politicians. This was ancient Rome, who had a government with a position of Dictator, that was used in extreme circumstances for 6 month to allow for the Dictator to cut through the bureaucracy of the Senate when the need was dire. For centuries the Romans made use of the Dictatorship in times of emergency, and time and again after the emergency was resolved, the Dictator voluntarily stepped down and returned authority.

Do you really think that the American electorate has the same level of civic virtue that allowed the Romans to utilize temporary Dictatorships dozens and dozens of times over centuries? For such a system could only work within a strong framework where civic responsibility was paramount, and where the maintenance of that civil decorum was sacrosanct. Once violent populism shattered that decorum, it was never the same again; some genies can never be put back in their bottles. In many ways it opened the door for Rome's first de facto supreme leader in Julius Caesar, and subsequently the subsuming of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire.

(28-07-2017 09:15 PM)Dom Wrote: The local Police dept. there had to issue a statement declaring that their officers are trained in humane treatment of suspects and the department has and will fully enforce these rules.

You've got to at least appreciate that agencies from the Pentagon to a lowly municipal police department have in this week felt the need to disavow the Shitgibbon's pronouncements. If nothing else, we know that multiple levels of government stand against this cunt.

And the Boy Scouts had to apologize for his speech. Fucker needs to be in a locked ward. He told the police in the speech that they "should have passed health care". In fact they were voting on the REPEAL of parts of health care. They are covering up for a deeply disturbed, out-of-touch, mentally ill, old man, using him for their ends. What's going to be funny, is when the leaks continue, and it turns out Priebus didn't do the leaking, THEN what will they do ?

Insufferable know-it-all. God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.

(29-07-2017 03:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote: To further Morondog's point (also, that is an excellent history series), the brothers Gracchi were Roman politicians. This was ancient Rome, who had a government with a position of Dictator, that was used in extreme circumstances for 6 month to allow for the Dictator to cut through the bureaucracy of the Senate when the need was dire. For centuries the Romans made use of the Dictatorship in times of emergency, and time and again after the emergency was resolved, the Dictator voluntarily stepped down and returned authority.

Do you really think that the American electorate has the same level of civic virtue that allowed the Romans to utilize temporary Dictatorships dozens and dozens of times over centuries? For such a system could only work within a strong framework where civic responsibility was paramount, and where the maintenance of that civil decorum was sacrosanct. Once violent populism shattered that decorum, it was never the same again; some genies can never be put back in their bottles. In many ways it opened the door for Rome's first de facto supreme leader in Julius Caesar, and subsequently the subsuming of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire.

I agree by and large with some addition however:

The last dictator before Caesar was Sulla, and he was not a member of the "Populares". He was a representative of the "optimates" who were conservatives fighting for the power and influence of the classic nobility and the senate (in which the nobility was seated). The optimates were looking for a rule of the senate over the republic rather than the popular assembly.

Sulla used his power as a military commander (and loyalty of the troops to him, personally) to become dictator. In the end he stepped back voluntarily, but not after he issued his famous "procriptiones", arresting and killing vast amount of political opponents. When he stpped down, all political opposition was either removed or silenced and the senates position was as strong as never before.

So, we could consider his optimate reign as part of the downfall too, not only populism and its representatives. What both, the populists and optimates in the late republic had in common however is that they were looking for overcoming the checks and balances of the republic and become single most powerful rulers. I am not saying these people didnt have ideals worth fighting for, but it was an "end justifies the means" approach.

Interestingly, most of Sullas laws were struck down within a few years after his reign, but the damage he (and the populares) had done to the republic lasted. I trust him in that he really wanted to preserve (or restore) the republic, but ultimately, and ironically, he was critical to its downfall.

Looking back at the US, and trying to draw comparisons, i would say you have a mix of populares and optimates policy at work. You have Trump appealing to the masses with (stupid, cheap, dishonest, discriminating, etc,) very popular slogans on one had. On the other hand you have his administration trying to use the power of "the senate" (congress) to push bills through (even if the plebs who voted them into power doesnt like them in the first place. Why all the secrecy about healthcare otherwise?). This method of combining populism with optimatism is useful since in a modern democracy you have no nobility with inherent status and power in your society. All our "senates" are elected, yet...as i explained....they are no "commoners" once they hold their position for some time (and even before that, since political careeres dont start by being elected). I think we can agree that most of the members of congress can be counted as "nobility" somehow, they certainly are no "average johns" from the streets of Chicago or NY or whatever.

What brought the republic down was an inabiliy and unwillingness to deal with your political opponents (in a civilized manner, without killing and persecuting them), and the consequences the leaders took. Maybe this is where the US is at now too: goal is not to deal with the other side but to completely crush it, no matter the cost, even if the cost is the destruction of the republic.