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Asking the same questions three times in less than three hours is just rude. It takes me longer than that to answer substantive questions from my clients, and they're paying me. Go watch a football game or something, okay?

This is between us. When I tried to leave this discussion you attempted to use one of our mutual head instructors in an effort to support the wide variety of statements that have been made against my basic understanding of Aikido and Aiki in Aikido. Though I have only been speaking for myself on this forum, these attacks that you make and support, directly and indirectly, undermine my legitimacy as an ASU instructor. That is the claim, implied at times and stated outright at times, is that I haven't a clue and that Ikeda Sensei would agree that I haven't a clue. You forced me to respond. So I ask again, Hugh:

Is it true that Ikeda and Saotome Sensei's can't hold a candle to Harden in terms of Aiki?

Is it true that the things Saotome Sensei wrote and said about Aiki and Aikido were mistaken?

Is it true that Saotome Sensei did not receive much instruction from O Sensei?

Is it true that O Sensei did not teach real Aiki to Saotome and others?

Has Ikeda Sensei rejected the importance of leading, blending, timing, and joining in Aikido?

Does Ikeda Sensei claim to contradict anything that Saotome Sensei has taught?

Is it true that leading, blending, body positioning, and joining as a means to unbalance Uke are mere tricks? Does Ikeda Sensei agree? Does Saotome Sensei?

I believe from a reading of the text that our Dear Poster has chosen to misconstrue Dan's "putting hands on" Ikeda and Saotome Senseis as a threat of fight rather than as simply meeting them for hands-on training so they can feel what each other are doing.

FWIW I am a follower of nobody - I train at a totally independent dojo - when I was at an Ikeda Sensei seminar for the first time this past spring I found what he was teaching was explicitly in line with the internal explorations I've been working on: literally moving the entire center - NOT metaphorically but literally - encouraging students to work on this as solo exercise - and in partner practice, not just doing waza but incorporating into waza that connection, visualizing and energetically moving one's center into one's hands to effect movement in uke (he didn't verbalize it that way but having now trained once with Dan, I would say they are equivalent concepts) - I see NO CONTRADICTION BETWEEN WHAT DAN WAS TEACHING AND WHAT IKEDA SENSEI WAS TEACHING.

Roughly speaking aikido training has three dimensions: physical, applied philosophical, and spiritual. All training in Aikido begins on the physical level. Aikidoka (practioners of aikido) learn a series of techniques adapted to respond to a variety of attacks and to multiple attackers.
Embodied in those techniques are various principles which can be applied to everyday situations such as arguments or dealing with a difficult boss. At Utsusemi Aikikai it is important to us to explore these principles, their applications, and the larger philosophy in which they are grounded.
The third dimension of training, the spiritual, aims at eliminating the spirit of conflict and experiencing our unity with all things and all beings.

I used to think that Ikeda Sensei was showing something different but very good from what Saotome Sensei shows, wrote, and teaches. It was Ikeda Sensei himself who made a special effort to help me to understand that what he is doing, as he understands it, is emphasizing another side of the same thing. He told me blending and take musu aiki is happening inside. The internal unbalancing is a micro version. He continues to blend with something. He can blend with momentum or with strength, much like sumi atoshi. This is all shown and explained in detail in the 2008 internal balance and power video:

"Before partner grabs already I moves. Partner cannot stop [shows tenkan from grab with internal unbalancing]. He cannot stop because grabbing time he’s already tippy toes… this is exactly the same as movement but later everything is inside… my line and his line get together [blending Aiki]."

Internal unbalancing prevents Uke from regaining his balance. It is one of many ways to do this. It does not alone make Uke fall down. That's why Sensei discusses adding gravity:

"Later on my weight going to his center. If you have 110 pounds that is enough if you put on top of partner, partner goes."

Sensei describes a blending of centers. He calls this "unity." it is not about some internal just who you are body conditioning. It is a subtle form of blending.

Hugh posted to the public forum in order to "add fuel to the fire." He would not allow me to leave this discussion.

What a double standard this group of Harden supporters has.

Hugh has some questions to answer.

After a while I start to see the tag team nature of the people taking turns posting.

Hi Ken. A lot of dust flying around, ha, ha.

However, how to communicate without insult or accusation is the missing art here on both sides on occasion. Too much 'he said' and blame and accusation going on. I see you have also been described as a car wreck. Learn to laugh at such things.

I don't know the politics involved, asu etc. But Hugh? Sounds a bit personal to me. He may not even have been online yet. Plus Demetrio is right in saying no one can force him to answer even if he were.

Maybe you know him better than me but I have had a few 'debates' with Hugh and accept we have differing views, no problem.

I believe you are making some points in response to things said by others. That's fine by me.

But basically there is an underlying misunderstanding going on. What it is I don't know. Is it you defending your teachers and line of teaching? Is that it versus this 'aiki' way of doing things and thus others defending their main instructor in it? That's what it looks like to me.

Overall you have the right to state your views without others ganging up and ridiculing but such is the nature of the beast at times so don't worry about it or be led off into complaint.

Remember, there are no real enemies but ourselves. They may be wrong in what they say or believe but how is that a problem to you?

I disagree that what they say is Ueshibas Aiki but they know that and even call me wacky (amongst other things) but but it's all just dust to me, it can make me choke and cough a bit though.

I believe we should look at our own manner of addressing others rather than how they address us and yet have failed a few times in that myself. If you are getting too insistent or angry or upset then you are losing your own center, having your own mind led, losing balance.

As you know Aikido is universal and even here on this forum. It's quite a game. I prefer a game where everyone wins. High hopes.

Hugh posted to the public forum in order to "add fuel to the fire." He would not allow me to leave this discussion.

What a double standard this group of Harden supporters has.

Hugh has some questions to answer.

After a while I start to see the tag team nature of the people taking turns posting.

There are no HARDEN Supporters posting as a group as your continued refrain suggests.
That means you are either stupid, or calling us all lairs.
I have not even met half the people talking to you. And others, while they do not agree with my take on things, do not support what you are saying.
I see no real ability or desire for you to be able to process this.
You are taking on all comers, to include people here with VERY diverse backgrounds that are not in line with my own.
Your choice to ingore that and call everyone liars is on you.
As was in the case with the How much should Dan make thread...people who do not support my efforts were appalled and were gentlemen in expressing how one should carry on- on the internet.
This is not it.
Dan

However, how to communicate without insult or accusation is the missing art here on both sides on occasion. Too much 'he said' and blame and accusation going on. I see you have also been described as a car wreck. Learn to laugh at such things.

Maybe you know him better than me but I have had a few 'debates' with Hugh and accept we have differing views, no problem.

I believe you are making some points in response to things said by others. That's fine by me.
Overall you have the right to state your views without others ganging up and ridiculing but such is the nature of the beast at times so don't worry about it or be led off into complaint.
Remember, there are no real enemies but ourselves. They may be wrong in what they say or believe but how is that a problem to you?
I disagree that what they say is Ueshibas Aiki but they know that and even call me wacky (amongst other things) but but it's all just dust to me, it can make me choke and cough a bit though.
As you know Aikido is universal and even here on this forum. It's quite a game. I prefer a game where everyone wins. High hopes.

Regards.G.

Graham
You have never done what he does. You listen and process even when we disagree. There is no agenda. We both honestly approach the topic differently. Good grief we have argued heatedly- both thinking the other ignorant of a larger picture -with none of this crap going on.

Neither have you lumped the widely diverse people who train with Ushiro, Ikeda, Ark, Mike, Sam Chin, etc....and me.....as Harden followers.
Were we to take a poll they train with a number of internal guys.
It's functionally dishonest. I am only one of the many teachers these people train with. And oddly enough Ikeda now trains with a Daito ryu guy....surpriiiiise!!
This is a body of work that transcends a single teacher. Which make it almost unstoppable. It has many faces and methods all based on a common theme. Internal power and aiki

This guy came in on the attack and got personal. I dismissed it until we got deeper into it and I saw he was intentionally misquoting me in order to defame me and refused to offer cogent replies. He is arguing points that make no sense and defending teachers..WHO TRAIN THIS WAY ALSO.
Janet pegged it. Anyone telling me that Ikeda and I are heading in different directions doesn't know what they are talking about. I have a letter stating Ikeda wants to meet me. So, telling people I am against Ikeda and Saotome, who I have publicly stated are among the few who are training aiki (and took heat for saying it in open rooms with students of other Shihan) is a lie.
Putting words in my mouth that I am going to attack them should not be allowed without supporting it.
I would demand a retraction or a censuring of this person, but I won't get one. Nothing has changed. Like I said, ya might as well start attacking my family here as well.
It's open season.

This is a matter for Hugh to respond to. I won't have you bury it for him. He has used Ikeda Sensei in an effort to "put fuel on the fire" against what I have written. I'm not having it, Hugh. Why not ask Sensei to put me in my place?

To give you the cold, hard answer to your question: Because I really don't care much about you. I certainly respect Ikeda Shihan far too much to parade this kind of garbage in front of him.

I have attended seminars with Saotome Shihan and found them fantastic.
I've attended seminars with Ikeda Shihan and found them very insightful, including this one.
I've learned from Ledyard Sensei and found his teaching wonderful.
I study with Gleason Sensei and find him amazing.
I've worked with Dan and found his teaching incredibly helpful.

I've certainly learned things from Dan (directly and indirectly) that I learned from no one else, the kind of thing that makes your partner's eyes pop when you use them on the mat. If that gives you heartburn--take an alka-seltzer. it's not my problem.

And, dude, can I just say, you've totally gone non-linear, you know? Chill. It's not for me to speak for the ASU. It's not for you to speak for Saotome. They're big fish and can take care of themselves. As I said not so long ago here, when the minnow leaps to the defense of the shark... the shark just smiles.

Except maybe I'll just add that, yeah, what Dan says about modern aikido is nothing to what some of my seniors in ASU say about modern aikido. If you love the art--really--you want it to be strong. You don't try to hide its flaws.

Sorry to keep you waiting for my answer to your questions but you know, I told you I was at the seminar today. I've got lots more important things in my life than keeping up with Aikiweb.

There are no HARDEN Supporters posting as a group as your continued refrain suggests.
That means you are either stupid, or calling us all lairs.
I have not even met half the people talking to you. And others, while they do not agree with my take on things, do not support what you are saying.
I see no real ability or desire for you to be able to process this.
You are taking on all comers, to include people here with VERY diverse backgrounds that are not in line with my own.
Your choice to ingore that and call everyone liars is on you.
As was in the case with the How much should Dan make thread...people who do not support my efforts were appalled and were gentlemen in expressing how one should carry on- on the internet.
This is not it.
Dan

Ha, ha. Correction. Dan, there are people who support your views and there are people who admire what you are doing and thus spring to your defence whenever that view, which is now shared by some, is challenged. There are people who are following your way of practising what you teach. Hence followers in that way. Admit it, for those who were looking for what you have to offer you are a, let's say breath of fresh air. Come on, don't be shy now.

So Mr. McGrew
Following in your weird labyrinth of logic:
Why are you stating that Saotome is against Ellis Amdur? Can you tell us when and how this occured? Did it happen over you and your teaching?
Why are you stating that Saotome says that Ueshiba was wrong and didn't understand aiki. You implied that this is the reason he left hombu (to bring aiki to the world through you) was based on his placing Terry Dobsons teachings as his method of Aiki. Your discussions of his teachings; that yo ho makes fire that is ki based on mingling with water, that will restore harmony to nature and allow Satome to restore the world seems at odds to cutting at it with swords. But this could be a balance of the yodel ho in kia that creates the mountain echo from the trees
Since your stating he teaches these things, does he know you are saying this in public or is this the gooie yee of the art?
I wat this explained to me in detail right now.
I want answers!!!
I have had enough
I demand answers!!
Mr. Harder. Or HD

Ha, ha. Correction. Dan, there are people who support your views and there are people who admire what you are doing and thus spring to your defence whenever that view, which is now shared by some, is challenged. There are people who are following your way of practising what you teach. Hence followers in that way. Admit it, for those who were looking for what you have to offer you are a, let's say breath of fresh air. Come on, don't be shy now.

Regards.G..

No. Emphatically no.

Let me explain. People don't support Dan's views. You have no idea how many times his views have been challenged and are continually challenged, even by those who train with him. If he had a nickel, he'd be rich.

People do admire that he got out there among other martial artists (all because of Ellis Amdur) and happily shares what he has accomplished in his hard earned training. But we do *not* come to his defense because, well, really, I don't think any of us are better at defending Dan than Dan is. Forged in fire and all that.

What some of us do is to speak up on those that challenge the merits of this training. IP/aiki is the secret of the martial arts, kept hidden, kept safe. We follow the art that is bigger than all of us. The one true secret to bring us all together and in the world bind us. Had it been Tom, Dick, or Harry who had kept IP/aiki going, we'd be there. In fact, we are. Dan, Ikeda, Sam Chin, Akuzawa, Saotome, Heiny, Liu Chengde, etc, etc, etc.

So, no, there are no followers of Dan. There are aikido people following the trail to the Holy Grail that Ueshiba shone so brightly with. IP/aiki. That is bigger than us all and worthy of the flack we get.

So Mr. McGrew
Following in your weird labyrinth of logic:
Why are you stating that Saotome is against Ellis Amdur? Can you tell us when and how this occured? Did it happen over you and your teaching?
Why are you stating that Saotome says that Ueshiba was wrong and didn't understand aiki. You implied that this is the reason he left hombu (to bring aiki to the world through you) was based on his placing Terry Dobsons teachings as his method of Aiki. Your discussions of his teachings; that yo ho makes fire that is ki based on mingling with water, that will restore harmony to nature and allow Satome to restore the world seems at odds to cutting at it with swords. But this could be a balance of the yodel ho in kia that creates the mountain echo from the trees
Since your stating he teaches these things, does he know you are saying this in public or is this the gooie yee of the art?
I wat this explained to me in detail right now.
I want answers!!!
I have had enough
I demand answers!!
Mr. Harder. Or HD

Dan:

I think that you would be better off sipping a nice single malt right about now........ Trying to bring yourself down to that level will require a very large backhoe. Best to sit on the surface and ask yourself "one or two rock with that single malt?"

I owe you an apology for the "fuel to the fire" comment. I meant it in jest, but I knew already you have no capacity to take anything in jest on this topic. I posted it to get up your nose, and it did. So I'm sorry for that. Sorta like taking an uke who's already off balance and slamming him into the mat.

I wasn't going to say anything more about what Ikeda was teaching, for exactly the reason you posted--it's his teaching, and it's not for me to represent or mis-represent it. But I agree entirely with Janet. I spent the whole seminar consciously turning off the whole IP/aiki part of my brain so I could understand Ikeda on his own terms. But I think they're clearly working on the same concepts.

Ha, ha. Correction. Dan, there are people who support your views and there are people who admire what you are doing and thus spring to your defence whenever that view, which is now shared by some, is challenged. There are people who are following your way of practising what you teach. Hence followers in that way. Admit it, for those who were looking for what you have to offer you are a, let's say breath of fresh air. Come on, don't be shy now.

Regards.G..

You are missing the key point.
Just about everyone who train with me ALSO train with others. I was typically LAST on their list. The late comer to the party. Ellis had to talk me into this. Sometimes I regret it. And I have an exit plan.
So logic would dictate that all harder farters, are also Sigman-iods, Ark-angels,Ikeda-raiders, Yanagi harpies, San Chin-thins, and Ushiro-heros.
In fact, when I teach, I insist people go see others as it supports the material itself as a broad based multi-cultural technology thousands of years old.
Once you hear, and read and then see Ueshiba's own words and teachings that predate him...sometimes word for word, from many different sources (who do not know each other, and sometimes don't even like each other) most people smarten up and accept that Ueshiba was one of many internal artists the world has known and his Doka were in may cases....copied from the Chinese.
You guys can try to personalize this to me all day long but all the people you keep trying to pigeon hole have trained with a whole bunch of the people on that list.
Your logic fails
Your argument fails
Dan

Graham
You have never done what he does. You listen and process even when we disagree. There is no agenda. We both honestly approach the topic differently. Good grief we have argued heatedly- both thinking the other ignorant of a larger picture -with none of this crap going on.

Neither have you lumped the widely diverse people who train with Ushiro, Ikeda, Ark, Mike, Sam Chin, etc....and me.....as Harden followers.
Were we to take a poll they train with a number of internal guys.
It's functionally dishonest. I am only one of the many teachers these people train with. And oddly enough Ikeda now trains with a Daito ryu guy....surpriiiiise!!
This is a body of work that transcends a single teacher. Which make it almost unstoppable. It has many faces and methods all based on a common theme. Internal power and aiki

This guy came in on the attack and got personal. I dismissed it until we got deeper into it and I saw he was intentionally misquoting me in order to defame me and refused to offer cogent replies. He is arguing points that make no sense and defending teachers..WHO TRAIN THIS WAY ALSO.
Janet pegged it. Anyone telling me that Ikeda and I are heading in different directions doesn't know what they are talking about. I have a letter stating Ikeda wants to meet me. So, telling people I am against Ikeda and Saotome, who I have publicly stated are among the few who are training aiki (and took heat for saying it in open rooms with students of other Shihan) is a lie.
Putting words in my mouth that I am going to attack them should not be allowed without supporting it.
I would demand a retraction or a censuring of this person, but I won't get one. Nothing has changed. Like I said, ya might as well start attacking my family here as well.
It's open season.

Dan

Dan, I think Ken saying that you wished to 'attack' them was a classic misunderstanding on his part. It's due to how you said it rather than what you meant by what you said. Come on, you do use a bit of colourful language like 'putting hands on' and 'they will be left helpless' and such terminology. This can easily be misconstrued as a threat or implied threat. As I said, a misunderstanding.

You say you know about spirals? Then how about this one. He misunderstands and takes it as a threat. He then accuses you of threatening violence. Everyone piles in blah, blah, blah, You then accuse him of accusing you falsely. He then repeats his accusation. You then accuse him of false accusation again and say he may as well attack your family while he's at it. Woahhhh. I call that a downward spiral which can only result in nothing any good.

What's new? Same ol same ol. (apart from calling you lairs. Maybe that implies you are wild animals ha, ha.) ref: post 613.

So Mr. McGrew
Following in your weird labyrinth of logic:
Why are you stating that Saotome is against Ellis Amdur? Can you tell us when and how this occured? Did it happen over you and your teaching?
Why are you stating that Saotome says that Ueshiba was wrong and didn't understand aiki. You implied that this is the reason he left hombu (to bring aiki to the world through you) was based on his placing Terry Dobsons teachings as his method of Aiki. Your discussions of his teachings; that yo ho makes fire that is ki based on mingling with water, that will restore harmony to nature and allow Satome to restore the world seems at odds to cutting at it with swords. But this could be a balance of the yodel ho in kia that creates the mountain echo from the trees
Since your stating he teaches these things, does he know you are saying this in public or is this the gooie yee of the art?
I wat this explained to me in detail right now.
I want answers!!!
I have had enough
I demand answers!!
Mr. Harder. Or HD

Dan:

I think that you would be better off sipping a nice single malt right about now........ Trying to bring yourself down to that level will require a very large backhoe. Best to sit on the surface and ask yourself "one or two rock with that single malt?"

Marc Abrams

Well you're probably right.
It's been a long day working, then a dinner party, two gimlets....you're probably right.
Of course I assume that no one in the right man took that seriously.
It's just as deranged as his mis-quotes of me.
All the best
Dan

In the mean time, I invite everyone to take a walk outside, drink something warm and toasty (or cold and refreshing, if you're in the Southern Hemisphere), go talk with friends (about something other than aikido), and listen to that album you used to listen to so much but haven't in such a long time.