This isn't really about gun laws imo, it's about America's relationship with guns and perhaps more importantly, why people actually go off their heads like this.

With or without gun laws they would still be going berserk - in the UK they just do it with knives (6 or 7 that I know of in London schools last week). For a serious comparison you would need to compare graphs on murders/violent attacks regardless of whether by gun, fist or other means.

I bet this is pretty standard in the US vs countries that have strict gun laws.

Its harder to kill 30 people with a knife

Quote:

The real question is: what is wrong with our allegedly so great western societies that causes people to go off their trolleys?

As opposed to allegedly so civilized moslem societies that produce suicide bombers at much higher frequency? At least our nutjobs have mental illnesses for an excuse rather than religion.*

Bugger off.

Vinea

* Not that some christian countries are not also so afflicted in the present and past.

Wooshhhhh........wtf was that? Thought I was going to be shock and awed for a minute but it's all ok, it was just the point going over your head....

Meaning that a nutjob with a gun is more dangerous than a nutjob with a knife. Hence the relevance of gun control to the discussion.

Your point is that you wanted to take a jab at western society when we have dead kids on the news. I don't bother posting sympathies on a forum but I'll call you a callous hatemonger when you try to score points off the US at a time like this.

This isn't really about gun laws imo, it's about America's relationship with guns and perhaps more importantly, why people actually go off their heads like this.

With or without gun laws they would still be going berserk - in the UK they just do it with knives (6 or 7 that I know of in London schools last week). For a serious comparison you would need to compare graphs on murders/violent attacks regardless of whether by gun, fist or other means.

I bet this is pretty standard in the US vs countries that have strict gun laws.

The real question is: what is wrong with our allegedly so great western societies that causes people to go off their trolleys?

According to a french criminilogist who just published a book about violence in the USA, there isn't real difference in term of "culture of violence " between USA and Europe. Both are belonging to the post industrial world, that causes people to go off their trolleys (and I agree with you on that point).
According to this criminilogist, if there is more death in USA, it's related to the insufficiant gun laws. It's tos easy to keep an hand on a heavy hand weapon whenever you are turning mad and want to shot someone else.
Mass murdering is difficult when you only have a knife in your hands in the real life.
Imagine that everybody in the world could press on the atomic button. The world would have been disapeared since a long time.
The problem with todays weapons, is that they are too efficient.
The other problem is violence itself, but it's an another subject, and history teach us, that we where really very violent in the past. The difference is that there where less mediatisation.

Meaning that a nutjob with a gun is more dangerous than a nutjob with a knife. Hence the relevance of gun control to the discussion.

Your point is that you wanted to take a jab at western society when we have dead kids on the news. I don't bother posting sympathies on a forum but I'll call you a callous hatemonger when you try to score points off the US at a time like this.

Vinea

Unsurprisingly you have no idea what you - or I - are talking about.

You are pretty moronic at the best of times so I guess 'at a time like this' your IQ may dip the last few points.

Find someone to discuss what I really said and translate for you if you are interested and feel like the outside gamble that you may possibly understand something - otherwise, in your own words:

Bugger Off

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

AS for Kallipornia... I'm glad you feel safe there. Even DiFi carries a gun for protection while she tells the rest of the country that they can't.

I know I shouldn't but I'm going to take the bait. I'm born and raised Californian. And I'm extremely proud of it. I grew an hour outside of Los Angeles in the suburbs. I walked to school everyday. I was raised just like everyone else. Never witnessed a shooting. Never was the victim of a violent crime. I moved to Studio City a few years ago. Again, I'm now geographically closer to Los Angeles and I STILL have yet to be the victim or witness a crime of violent proportions. This notion that Los Angeles and California in general is some seedy sesspool of crime, and gang bangers, and porn stars, a drunk pantyless starlets is stupid, ignorant, and hypocritical.

[/well deserved ad hominem)

And where exactly is the idealistic bastion of "America" that you hail from exactly? Just because you fell out of your mother's vagina in a different part of the country doesn't make it better place to live. Mkay?

"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."

According to a french criminilogist who just published a book about violence in the USA, there isn't real difference in term of "culture of violence " between USA and Europe. Both are belonging to the post industrial world, that causes people to go off their trolleys (and I agree with you on that point).
According to this criminilogist, if there is more death in USA, it's related to the insufficiant gun laws. It's tos easy to keep an hand on a heavy hand weapon whenever you are turning mad and want to shot someone else.
Mass murdering is difficult when you only have a knife in your hands in the real life.
Imagine that everybody in the world could press on the atomic button. The world would have been disapeared since a long time.
The problem with todays weapons, is that they are too efficient.
The other problem is violence itself, but it's an another subject, and history teach us, that we where really very violent in the past. The difference is that there where less mediatisation.

Yes, a gun is a far more effective weapon and can obviously do much more damage - that's true. In that sense gun control is effective.

But surely it is just treating the symptoms not the cause. Can we really say we have solved anything if all we have done is deny people access to weapons when those same people would kill if they could get them?

Surely we need to know why they do what they do.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Please, because you choose the words "allegedly so great" because you wanted a reasoned discussion about the ills of western society that you partake but denigrate anyway.

Feh.

Vinea

Well, it's true isn't it?

The West is portrayed as 'great' and 'free' or whatever. And We are talking about the West in this topic.

The East has different problems and they are not applicable to be considered in this thread.

I did not use the words in terms of comparison but rather in terms of my own opinion....you are the one who keeps banging on about free-speech aren't you? Support me.....

I will rephrase though: the phenomena of citizens committing large scale apparently random murders that have no basis in political or religious aspiration would appear to be a uniquely western manifestation.

If this is indeed the case then it may hold a clue to the problem's solution. I submit that finding the solution does not lie in the direction of gun control but in any event we do need to find a solution (as opposed to continued reacting to tragedy)..... we do want that right?

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

The West is portrayed as 'great' and 'free' or whatever. And We are talking about the West in this topic.

The East has different problems and they are not applicable to be considered in this thread.

I did not use the words in terms of comparison but rather in terms of my own opinion....you are the one who keeps banging on about free-speech aren't you? Support me.....

I will rephrase though: the phenomena of citizens committing large scale apparently random murders that have no basis in political or religious aspiration would appear to be a uniquely western manifestation.

If this is indeed the case then it may hold a clue to the problem's solution. I submit that finding the solution does not lie in the direction of gun control but in any event we do need to find a solution (as opposed to continued reacting to tragedy)..... we do want that right?

I would like to see some bona fide "objective" statistics on "random" acts of violence in "western" societies, with the addition of say, Russia, China, India, Japan, etceteras, for comparison purposes.

My belief is that the US has the highest per capita "random" acts of violence, within the modern "western" subset (all stable modern technological societies, e. g. including (at least) Japan, Western Europe, and North America).

You know, monkey see, monkey do! Modern US "POP" culture of death.

PS - And by "random" I mean by (a very few (1-3)) individuals acting of their own mind(s), not larger group behaviors (e. g. group acts of terrorism).

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!

Yes, a gun is a far more effective weapon and can obviously do much more damage - that's true. In that sense gun control is effective.

But surely it is just treating the symptoms not the cause. Can we really say we have solved anything if all we have done is deny people access to weapons when those same people would kill if they could get them?

Surely we need to know why they do what they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by segovius

If this is indeed the case then it may hold a clue to the problem's solution. I submit that finding the solution does not lie in the direction of gun control but in any event we do need to find a solution (as opposed to continued reacting to tragedy)..... we do want that right?

I absolutely agree with this 100%

I've been trying to, unsuccessfully, come up with a way of expressing this very view point.

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.- Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...

Whatever Gilsch. Believe whatever you want. Millions of us will not surrender our rights just because you say we should.

Ok Charlton. I wonder if gun carrying criminals feel they have a right to carry a gun aswell....

Quote:

The NRA has trained more people in gun safety than any other organization, as well as provided more trigger locks than anyone to gun owners. No one is more in favor of the safe, responsible use of firearms than gun owners themselves. When things go bad, it's OUR rights you guys come after.

Big whoop. You sound like a cultist. That's the least the NRA could do to seem reasonable. Ease up on the Kool Aid concentrate a little.

Let me guess....."You can take my rifle ... when you pry it from my cold dead hands"?

Psychological counseling, steady jobs and economic prospects, and increased educational quality/depth are just some of the ways to reduce the likelihood of someone committing a murder.

I disagree. I believe most psychological problems have their roots in the physical realm. Have you ever noticed how vicious you or another person can become when they haven't eaten in a while, or if they miss their usual mealtime? Have you ever noticed how some people can become extremely moody, irritable and irrational when they haven't had sex for a while? I would assume most, if not all mass murderers were male, isn't this so? Why? The physical condition informs the psychological condition.

I disagree. I believe most psychological problems have their roots in the physical realm. Have you ever noticed how vicious you or another person can become when they haven't eaten in a while, or if they miss their usual mealtime? Have you ever noticed how some people can become extremely moody, irritable and irrational when they haven't had sex for a while? I would assume most, if not all mass murderers were male, isn't this so? Why? The physical condition informs the psychological condition.

I think a lot of it has to be due to a lack of status, or "social grooming," or that they consider themselves "outsiders."

IMHO, it is much more related to psychological than physiological conditions. As to male/female ratios, IMHO this is at least partially (if not overwhelmingly) nurture in origin.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!

Yes, a gun is a far more effective weapon and can obviously do much more damage - that's true. In that sense gun control is effective.

But surely it is just treating the symptoms not the cause. Can we really say we have solved anything if all we have done is deny people access to weapons when those same people would kill if they could get them?

Surely we need to know why they do what they do.

You're being too clever by half.

The relative ease of availability of guns *is* the cause for all practical purposes. Delving into the darkness of the human psyche and wondering why people act a certain way given the circumstances might be interesting to the psychologist or to the criminologist. But it serves no practical purpose to wave off gun control as something symptomatic. Look at the statistics and you'll see the causation between gun control and things like homicide rates. We're certainly closer to solving things if people aren't dying.

I will rephrase though: the phenomena of citizens committing large scale apparently random murders that have no basis in political or religious aspiration would appear to be a uniquely western manifestation.

If this is indeed the case then it may hold a clue to the problem's solution. I submit that finding the solution does not lie in the direction of gun control but in any event we do need to find a solution (as opposed to continued reacting to tragedy)..... we do want that right?

This is based purely on your bias against western societies. The affliction of violent mental illness can occur in any society in as much as some are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. For example Weston was a diagnosed schizophrenic.

Do you believe there is no evidence of individuals in ancient Egypt or China pre-dating western influcences that suffered from violent mental illnesses? The concept of ying and yang and possession by demons were used to descrive madness and their causes from before western society was more than barbarians squatting in the ruins of the roman empire.

The other factor is that western democracies selfreport crime better than totalitarian states. You can compare New Zealand with the US and expect that the US under reports slightly due to size (inefficiencies, error, incompetence, etc) rather than under reporting systematically as say in modern China.

Your assertion and discussion is a sham. While there is no doubt that the western society can create unique pressures that can trigger violent and anti-social behavior but there is no reason to believe the resulting behavior is unique to western cultures. Some of the causal factors from a technological society may possibly be unique stimulants but we also don't have some oldeer ones from pre-industrial societies either.

You utopians are frustrating. If you pass a Federal no gun law today, how would you even attempt to enforce it without invading peoples lives in ways that you utopians certainly would not approve of? How do you feel about widespread door to-door searches of private citizens homes?

I agree that we would be better without all of these guns. My pragmatism, however, causes me to discount the idea as little more than latte sippers babble

You utopians are frustrating. If you pass a Federal no gun law today, how would you even attempt to enforce it without invading peoples lives in ways that you utopians certainly would not approve of? How do you feel about widespread door to-door searches of private citizens homes?

I agree that we would be better without all of these guns. My pragmatism, however, causes me to discount the idea as little more than latte sippers babble

I would, more or less, agree with your sentiments.

I would also say that "enforcing all laws on the books" is also a pragmatic impossibility, for the very same reason.

How do you feel about widespread door to-door searches of private citizens homes?

Not like your radical scenario would ever happen, but personally, I would have no problem with that. Zero. We could come up with many different ways of getting rid of all the guns. Some encouraging voluntary action. Not like that would ever occur to you Common Man. No latte in Texas?

Not like your radical scenario would ever happen, but personally, I would have no problem with that. Zero. We could come up with many different ways of getting rid of all the guns. Some encouraging voluntary action. Not like that would ever occur to you Common Man. No latte in Texas?

And that would be about as successful as all our "Global wars on ...? Terrorism? Poverty? Global Warming? Pedophiliacs? Drugs? Tobacco? Alcohol? War? Crime? ...

The black market and criminals would do this voluntarily? The citizenry would voluntarily give up it's primary means of self protection? We should all just trust "the state" to protect us all?

Get real!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!

Not like your radical scenario would ever happen, but personally, I would have no problem with that. Zero. We could come up with many different ways of getting rid of all the guns. Some encouraging voluntary action. Not like that would ever occur to you Common Man. No latte in Texas?

I think that you are naive to think it can be done easily and voluntarily.

Every time there's a horrible multiple shooting incident like this, there's a few weeks of heated discussion over what to do about it, and how to prevent the next one. Each time, it's all hot air and no action, apart from the predctable investment in more security and more surveillance (which any determined shooter can evade). The causes of what triggers some people to "lose it completely" remain in place, unaddressed. Subsequent newsworthy events then cause our memories to blur, and then we forget... until the next time. Repeat cycle.

Because 32 people were killed in one incident, it makes the national headlines (as well it must, it's a ghastly tragedy . But what about all the 100 people who die by the gun every day in the U.S. whose deaths usually go unreported in the national media (unless its a celebrity of course)? Our society is not only sick, but in denial. It reminds me of the strange feelgood ritual we go through each year by acknowledging (on the media) the plight of the homeless at Christmas.. and then for the rest of the year, pretending the problem doesn't exist....

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow

To what extent would those in favor of disarming America support the suspension of citizens rights in order to enforce an inclusive gun control law? Many of you wet your pants at the thought of a phone call or an email being read by the government. If the law is to work, it needs to reach near 100% compliance. How will you that? If you don't know how to enforce a law, don't make it. Making such laws is just "feel good banter".

For you, yes. The rubric you invented is wrong. Crimes of passion are not premeditated.

I didn't say they were... I said that the weapons used are of convienance... In the case of gun violence with crimes of passion... they are often if not exclusively already owned by the murderer or the victim...

"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."

So please Jubelum, now that you've insulted where I live and have chosen to stay and raise my family...FUCK YOU!!!!

[/well deserved ad hominem)

And where exactly is the idealistic bastion of "America" that you hail from exactly? Just because you fell out of your mother's vagina in a different part of the country doesn't make it better place to live. Mkay?

Dude, you need to chill out on the California thing. I just said that I'm glad you feel safe there, with a reference to Ahhnold's pronunciation. Many people feel safe in CA, some don't. I'm sure you have mistaken my intent.

You folks in CA can handle your state however you want. I don't care. Raise your family however you want... I didn't say anything about that. I'm not sure exactly what my mother's vagina and your "fuck you" have to do with this discussion.

Ok Charlton. I wonder if gun carrying criminals feel they have a right to carry a gun aswell.... Big whoop. You sound like a cultist. That's the least the NRA could do to seem reasonable. Ease up on the Kool Aid concentrate a little.

Let me guess....."You can take my rifle ... when you pry it from my cold dead hands"?

Correct. From my cold dead hands.

The criminals are going to carry guns no matter how many utopian laws you make. You will never stop them. Not one bit. You'll just cost the lives of innocent, disarmed people.

I think that you are naive to think it can be done easily and voluntarily.

The way to restrict handguns is not to sieze handguns but heavily restrict the sale of pistol ammo. That would leave some like the .22LR available but remove the more common pistols from the equation once hoarded bullets were used up.

Make rounds available for these guns (9mm, 10mm, .45, etc) only at the ranges and for permit holders (like for automatic weapon ownership).

Add RFID to all casings and inside the bullet material for forensics. Add severe penalties for letting restriccted rounds loose into the wild for range owners and permit holders. This would undoubtably raise prices for sport and recreational shooting. Especially since we'd also have to remove reloading from the equation.

Allow certain utility rounds available for sale like snake rounds.

Remove reloading materials from the market.

When technology improves introduce new guns that only work with keyed ammo and eliminate sales of traditional ammo altogether.

and how will we deal with the massive new black market for weapons and ammo? Prohibition of anything does not seem to work in anything short of a totalitarian state..

What massive black market? Target shooters still can. Pistol hunters still can.
It would be more inconvienent for rural shooters but if they were willing to get licensed and take responsibility for the ammo then they should be able to do pretty much as before.

We prohibit lots of things. Its not like you can buy C4 or other high explosives as an unlicensed civilian. Ammo would no different.

There's only so much product that can be moved in the black market. Capacity spent moving 9mm ammo reduces something else and given that ammo is still going to be less lucritive than drugs and aren't habit forming the effect will be to neutralize a good number of existing pistols without restricting them for legitimate purposes.