Indian army has 4 RAPID division(Partly mechanized).Pakistan Army should atleast make 2 divisions mechanized to support armoured divisions during an offensive.

Im pretty sure we already have a well equiped and well rounded Mechanized division, we are also likely to get more. Currently I believe Pakistan is ahead of indian in Mechanized field and far ahead in mobility

Im the worst nightmare for islamist, traditionalist, neo-liberals, communist, and best of all bhangee-ist

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mechanized in terms of APCs etc which can transport the troops into battle and allow them to keep up with the tank formations. non-mechanized divisions would have to rely on the troops getting a ride in trucks or hiking it to the battle-field.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

Im pretty sure we already have a well equiped and well rounded Mechanized division, we are also likely to get more. Currently I believe Pakistan is ahead of indian in Mechanized field and far ahead in mobility

It is often reffered that 17th infantry division has been made mechanized division to be used alongwith 6th armoured division but no credible sources to back it up.

QUOTE(sparten @ Apr 25 2007, 07:50 PM)

We have V Corps reserve and XXXI Corps Reserve to counter the Khatris RAPIDS. They are both armoured Div equivalents. And can make sure that the RAPIDS are rapidly destroyed.

What we need is a new armoured di in the North along with 6 Armoured Divs. The Corps from Peshawar, XI Corps needs it. So then we are looking at a two corps attack in the North, I and XI Corps.

Im pretty sure we already have a well equiped and well rounded Mechanized division, we are also likely to get more. Currently I believe Pakistan is ahead of indian in Mechanized field and far ahead in mobility

i beg ur pardon but are u sure .... i will not ask for a count for trucks and road based transport .bu how many helis does PA operates and how an does IA

the ratio is roughli 1 : 7 and with more in fray IA just signed a agrrement for 197 helis...

i beg ur pardon but are u sure .... i will not ask for a count for trucks and road based transport .bu how many helis does PA operates and how an does IA

the ratio is roughli 1 : 7 and with more in fray IA just signed a agrrement for 197 helis...

Spoken like a true rat-indian!!!! It might not have occured to you morons, but the PA's Mechanized Infantry strategic defence lay in the mass proliferation of MANPADs that form part of its Defensive/Offensive capability in a battlefield. Bring on the gunships and you'll see them get swatted outta the sky like flies!

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

Spoken like a true rat-indian!!!! It might not have occured to you morons, but the PA's Mechanized Infantry strategic defence lay in the mass proliferation of MANPADs that form part of its Defensive/Offensive capability in a battlefield. Bring on the gunships and you'll see them get swatted outta the sky like flies!

your font size has changed but not your attiude Mr, DIZA - STROUS .. . who is asking of bringng heavy gunships in the frame .and where did i mention gunships . i said helis the lighter ones ... .. this is what modren day arrmies in various coinutries do now a days ... {US operation in iraq }

this is what modren day arrmies in various coinutries do now a days ... {US operation in iraq }

Transport choppers are good to operate in safe skies.US choppers in Iraq are very vulnerable to manpads.In armoured/mechanized warfare transport choppers can be used to bring in quick ammo supplies for an advance to continue,flying in secure air zone.On they way back they can carry away critically wounded personnel.

By mechanized, we mean vehicles tht are fully or half-tracked...having tracks like the tanks and APC's have, its alternate is the motorized formation, in which the motor vehicles are in abundance in place of tracked vehicles. However, in both formations, infantry isnt on foot but on relevent tracked or motor vehicles! Hope it clears up ur query!

In terms of mechanized infantry(as mechanized is usually for infantry,armoured is used for tanks),the basic composition is mechanized regiment/battalion,which in Pakistan are knows as "MIB's"(mechanized infantry battalions).The basic weapon of mechanized battalion/regiment is armoured vehicle which are used in various roles:APC(armoured personnel carrier),used to carry troops in battlefield providing adequate protection against fire from enemy and relying on swift movement to keep pace with tanks and for quick deployment.e.g.M113,BMP etcAFIV(Armoured fighting infantry vehicle) or IFV(Infantry fighting vehicle),these are light armoured vehicles which can be APC's also whose primary role is to provide fire support for infantry as well as transporting troops across battlefield.e.g.M3 Bradley,BMP2/3 etc.

The MIB's in Pakistan also have a category known as HAT(Heavy Anti Tank).These consist of MIB's having M113/Talha armed with TOWS/Green Arrow missiles for fighting tanks.

A usual mechanized division consists of 3 brigades with atleast 2 mechanized battalions for each brigade and 1 armoured regiment for each brigade,however different countries have different configurations.

There is also a motorized infantry battalion,which employs trucks and jeeps as transports.In Pakistan,LAT's(Light Anti Tank) employ jeeps armed with GreenArrow or 106mm RR,the latter being phased out.

It is often reffered that 17th infantry division has been made mechanized division to be used alongwith 6th armoured division but no credible sources to back it up.

GB, officially, only our 44 Mech Bde 'One and Only', so called cuz it is one of its type......is our sole and true Mech Bde, it is a reserve Bde under XXXI Corps....and its sole purpose is to exploit any bridgehead-type operation or to counter as a reserve!In our offrs opinion, only our II Corps is the true strike Corps, I Corps is also in the strike role but with the increasing number of urban areas developing in its path, there's no place in Punjab and upper areas to employ armored reserves......visibility is also a prob as in these areas, u cant see for more than 400 m! The only area for offensive strikes is the desert area in southern Punjab and Sindh, and here the II Corps plays its part! In my opinion, we should leave defensive units of I Corps for the northern parts of Pakistan, and move all of its offensive capability to II Corps, thn, our reinforced II Corps would be truly a force to be reckoned with!!

GB, officially, only our 44 Mech Bde 'One and Only', so called cuz it is one of its type......is our sole and true Mech Bde, it is a reserve Bde under XXXI Corps....and its sole purpose is to exploit any bridgehead-type operation or to counter as a reserve!In our offrs opinion, only our II Corps is the true strike Corps, I Corps is also in the strike role but with the increasing number of urban areas developing in its path, there's no place in Punjab and upper areas to employ armored reserves......visibility is also a prob as in these areas, u cant see for more than 400 m! The only area for offensive strikes is the desert area in southern Punjab and Sindh, and here the II Corps plays its part! In my opinion, we should leave defensive units of I Corps for the northern parts of Pakistan, and move all of its offensive capability to II Corps, thn, our reinforced II Corps would be truly a force to be reckoned with!!

A big problem with PA armoured div's is that,it has only 4 armour regiments in 2 brigades instead of having 6 armour regiments with 3 mechanized infantry battalions in 3 brigades.

I think the offensive forces of 1 corps are in north for two reasons:1.To pust towards pathankot sector to cut off Kashmir from rest of india 2.To secure the southern flanks of forces moving into Kashmir

A big problem with PA armoured div's is that,it has only 4 armour regiments in 2 brigades instead of having 6 armour regiments with 3 mechanized infantry battalions in 3 brigades.

GB, point taken, but also consider the logistic effort required to supply such large a force in areas where we have below average road structure. Let me quote a 1 Armd Div recce result. Its a little old, but its valid even today! "....It would be difficult to employ the whole Div in any of the areas of operation; that the idea of the whole Div moving at great speed was not possible in the plains of Punjab as there were too many wet and dry obstacles every five or ten miles that would require bridging. Owing to this, and the lack of roads and tracks, re-supply would pose a problem because, even if we had air-parity, there was little or no cover for the vast and varied number of vehicles that would be used for the re-supply effort. Camouflage nets are not of much use because the tracks of the vehicles canot be hidden. It also became clear tht due to lack of roads, the Armd Div would have to move on a single axis, which would make it very vulnerable to enemy air..... ".....We also examined the possibilty of the Div moving on two or more axes. We found that in most of the areas of ops, there was only one road, and if there were more roads, they were so far apart that mutual support b/w Bdes was impossible, we did not have wnough engineers to look after two axes, also....Div and Corps artillery would also be split........" unquote.

Your orbat is almost accurate, but there is no mention of our Indep Inf and Armd Bde Grps.....for ex, 105 Indep bde at Sulemanki Headworks!

GB, point taken, but also consider the logistic effort required to supply such large a force in areas where we have below average road structure. Let me quote a 1 Armd Div recce result. Its a little old, but its valid even today! "....It would be difficult to employ the whole Div in any of the areas of operation; that the idea of the whole Div moving at great speed was not possible in the plains of Punjab as there were too many wet and dry obstacles every five or ten miles that would require bridging. Owing to this, and the lack of roads and tracks, re-supply would pose a problem because, even if we had air-parity, there was little or no cover for the vast and varied number of vehicles that would be used for the re-supply effort. Camouflage nets are not of much use because the tracks of the vehicles canot be hidden. It also became clear tht due to lack of roads, the Armd Div would have to move on a single axis, which would make it very vulnerable to enemy air..... ".....We also examined the possibilty of the Div moving on two or more axes. We found that in most of the areas of ops, there was only one road, and if there were more roads, they were so far apart that mutual support b/w Bdes was impossible, we did not have wnough engineers to look after two axes, also....Div and Corps artillery would also be split........" unquote.Your orbat is almost accurate, but there is no mention of our Indep Inf and Armd Bde Grps.....for ex, 105 Indep bde at Sulemanki Headworks!

Maybe this division should move in the desert area then,i think it has been equipped with the T80UD's whose main purpose was to fight a desert war.Its mobility would increase ten folds in the desert whereas it could be replaced with an independant armoured brigade group(IABG) for the defense of the area.

Maybe this division should move in the desert area then,i think it has been equipped with the T80UD's whose main purpose was to fight a desert war.Its mobility would increase ten folds in the desert whereas it could be replaced with an independant armoured brigade group(IABG) for the defense of the area.

Right, and i also propose something else. During second world war, General Hermann Balck, a leading armored expert, recommended tht in an Armd Div, even the logistic vehicles should be tracked or half-tracked. This way, the supplies of such big a force would continue to run, let it be desert or flooded area in the fertile plains! Our S&T Bns are all wheeled, i suggest they should atleast be half-tracked! What do u think?One more thing, thr report ended saying tht in it spresent position, the Armd Div can only counter-attack any enemy break-through in South Pujab.... if it wants to go on offensive, it must do so south of Rahim Yar Khan!

Right, and i also propose something else. During second world war, General Hermann Balck, a leading armored expert, recommended tht in an Armd Div, even the logistic vehicles should be tracked or half-tracked. This way, the supplies of such big a force would continue to run, let it be desert or flooded area in the fertile plains! Our S&T Bns are all wheeled, i suggest they should atleast be half-tracked! What do u think?

A good point and we have developed Al-Qaswa logistics vehicle(M113 chasis) for the same purpose,but for my own personal opinion,Uh-1 should be used to bring in ammo supplies much more quickly.

A good point and we have developed Al-Qaswa logistics vehicle(M113 chasis) for the same purpose,but for my own personal opinion,Uh-1 should be used to bring in ammo supplies much more quickly.

I think Chinook would be better to carry heavy loads of ammo, for the same purpose, we must have alot of UH-1s whereas same thing can be done with a small number of medium size helis like of Mi-xx series or chinooks!

I think Chinook would be better to carry heavy loads of ammo, for the same purpose, we must have alot of UH-1s whereas same thing can be done with a small number of medium size helis like of Mi-xx series or chinooks!

No one will give us chinooks,plus 5/6 UH-1 or MI17 can do the job for one armoured regiment.

Taking into account that Pakistan armoured div has 4/5 armour regiments also makes sense that assembling 400+ tanks in one area will attract a lot of Mirage2000's and Mig23/27's.It is understood that each armoured division has 1 AA brigade attatched with it,however when F7/Mirages get retired they should be incorporated into Army aviation with each Corps having 1 squadron of either F7 or mirages to provide close air support and also get rid of enemy aircrafts to enable a smooth advance.

No one will give us chinooks,plus 5/6 UH-1 or MI17 can do the job for one armoured regiment.

Taking into account that Pakistan armoured div has 4/5 armour regiments also makes sense that assembling 400+ tanks in one area will attract a lot of Mirage2000's and Mig23/27's.It is understood that each armoured division has 1 AA brigade attatched with it,however when F7/Mirages get retired they should be incorporated into Army aviation with each Corps having 1 squadron of either F7 or mirages to provide close air support and also get rid of enemy aircrafts to enable a smooth advance.

In my opinion, Uh-1s wont be suitable to carry heavy ammo loads, like tank shells and fuel supplies, only for small arms upto MG ammo......but anyways, Al-Qaswa, if it gets manufactured in large numbers, would be the best solution....atleast it can keep up with the tanks and wont require something like a heli-pad to stop!

In my opinion, Uh-1s wont be suitable to carry heavy ammo loads, like tank shells and fuel supplies, only for small arms upto MG ammo......but anyways, Al-Qaswa, if it gets manufactured in large numbers, would be the best solution....atleast it can keep up with the tanks and wont require something like a heli-pad to stop!

A long time back,i saw a movie abt Afghan-USSR war,i forgot the name.In that movie a commander of T55 tank of Russian forces crushes a man under his tank tracks and then leaves the town and gets isolated and is ambushed and destroyed by mujahideen in revenge.In the middle of movie,they showed a chopper similar in shape to UH-1 filled with tanks round,landed near it,loaded the tank with rounds and flew off.

A long time back,i saw a movie abt Afghan-USSR war,i forgot the name.In that movie a commander of T55 tank of Russian forces crushes a man under his tank tracks and then leaves the town and gets isolated and is ambushed and destroyed by mujahideen in revenge.In the middle of movie,they showed a chopper similar in shape to UH-1 filled with tanks round,landed near it,loaded the tank with rounds and flew off.

Panzer-Kiel our use of armoured divisions has been to say the least poor. In '65 we all know about Asal Utter, and the fact is that both Divs were used in a holding role at Chawinda. In '71 1 AD was not used at all (except for 19 SP which saw action defending the base at Shorkot). And in the last deployment II Corps was in a holding role in the south with V and XII Corps. I even believe that Maj Gen Farooq GOC 1 AD was sacked because he objected to the deployement,

And we also have a history of using holding formations for strike roles, see 12 div in '65 and '71, 18 Div at Longewala in '71. I will not be surprised if V Corps reserve and XXXI corps reserve are used as such.

Panzer-Kiel our use of armoured divisions has been to say the least poor. In '65 we all know about Asal Utter, and the fact is that both Divs were used in a holding role at Chawinda. In '71 1 AD was not used at all (except for 19 SP which saw action defending the base at Shorkot). And in the last deployment II Corps was in a holding role in the south with V and XII Corps. I even believe that Maj Gen Farooq GOC 1 AD was sacked because he objected to the deployement,

And we also have a history of using holding formations for strike roles, see 12 div in '65 and '71, 18 Div at Longewala in '71. I will not be surprised if V Corps reserve and XXXI corps reserve are used as such.

Almost right...just want to say k in 1971, II Corps, being called the Army Reserve South, was to conduct an offensive with Army Reserve North, which consisted of 6 Armd Div and 17 Inf Div, in central Punjab area on 17 Dec with the 3rd Indep Armd Bde as the flank protection force; but due to ceasefire, it couldnt be carried out...as it was planned before-hand tht EP was to conduct fortress-type defence for 45 days for which adequate supplies were dumped....all the formations were to concentrate in Bde-size fortresses.....but this policy wasnt carried out as the orders were changed to defend every inch of EP, which was impossible considering the number of troops! I suggest u read Gen Mitha's memoirs!! They are an excellent reading!

One must also not forget the gallant-but futile- counter-attack of our 8th Indep Armd Bde in Shakargarh and our 35 FF!

.....and we are also raising a new strike formation for Central Pakistan, seems like II Corps would move further soutwards, right where it should be!

A long time back,i saw a movie abt Afghan-USSR war,i forgot the name.In that movie a commander of T55 tank of Russian forces crushes a man under his tank tracks and then leaves the town and gets isolated and is ambushed and destroyed by mujahideen in revenge.In the middle of movie,they showed a chopper similar in shape to UH-1 filled with tanks round,landed near it,loaded the tank with rounds and flew off.

........one heli for one tank???? wht if our formation is far ahead?? The helis, if we have 5 per regt, would'nt be able to re-supply all the regt......!

........one heli for one tank???? wht if our formation is far ahead?? The helis, if we have 5 per regt, would'nt be able to re-supply all the regt......!

No,thats y i said in later post about Mi17 and Al-qaswa,we dont have lavish funds as super power armies.saying about 5 helis per regiment meant if u look at it from war point of view,the tanks are not used to hold ground infact are kept under strict possible cover during organizing before an attack or -re-organizing after an attack,re-organizing may sometimes take afew hours to up to a whole day as per nature/aggressinevess of campaign.Therefore once drawn back or reorganizing,5 helis will have ample time to supply the regiment with necessary ammo.

If u have read about great campaigns of WW2 or even wars during cold era or indo-pak wars,nothing is acheived 100%,in reality what is planned by QM(quarter master) officer about supplying,only upto 60-70% is acheived at times.Considering the current Pakistan Army,which is supplied by 1-3 ton trucks which mostly travel on single roads during peace time and that also during nights and which will have to travel during war in deserts/plains of punjab or vulnerable roads in mountains of kashmir,dont u think even a 5 heli-supply team can get a squadron ready with necessary ammo in no time where the trucks would take double/triple time to reach and an important offensive might be compromised.

Central Pakistan....name yet to be given.......frmations are being raised.......the second part of urs, i cant understand....who's Gen Khan?

When war came why was it decided to deploy II Corps forward as a holding formation alongside V Corps and XII corps rather than keeping it in reserve as for offensives as it was supposwed to be done. I know for a fact that Maj Gen Farooq Ahmed Khan who was GOC 1 AD at the time objected to this deployment and was replaced.

The good General was also the Earthquake relief commissioner later. Here a pic.

Panzer-Kiel our use of armoured divisions has been to say the least poor. In '65 we all know about Asal Utter, and the fact is that both Divs were used in a holding role at Chawinda. In '71 1 AD was not used at all (except for 19 SP which saw action defending the base at Shorkot). And in the last deployment II Corps was in a holding role in the south with V and XII Corps. I even believe that Maj Gen Farooq GOC 1 AD was sacked because he objected to the deployement,

And we also have a history of using holding formations for strike roles, see 12 div in '65 and '71, 18 Div at Longewala in '71. I will not be surprised if V Corps reserve and XXXI corps reserve are used as such.

In 1965,the 6th armoured division was raised from 100th independant brigade and thus wasnt upto its full strength of a proper division.The tactics for armoured warfare were changed in the excercise "zarb-e-momin" with emphasis on mechanized warfare.Pakistan army will now mostly use NG(National guard) formations of Janbaz and Mujahid battalions for defence and will use regular army battalions for attack.I always admire German tactics and their employment of Panzer divisions.British use of armour was mostly to support infantry.

^At the start of the war yes thats true. Which is why it did not partake in its intended offensive role in OP Grandslam. But by the time of the Chawinda battles other units had been assigned to it.

QUOTE(GreenBeret)

The tactics for armoured warfare were changed in the excercise "zarb-e-momin" with emphasis on mechanized warfare.Pakistan army will now mostly use NG(National guard) formations of Janbaz and Mujahid battalions for defence and will use regular army battalions for attack.

Just my point yaar. THAT whole concept seemed to have been abandoned in 2002. Everyone had a defensive posture. Hell we even sent troops into the Gadra Salient which we have never done before.

your font size has changed but not your attiude Mr, DIZA - STROUS .. . who is asking of bringng heavy gunships in the frame .and where did i mention gunships . i said helis the lighter ones ... .. this is what modren day arrmies in various coinutries do now a days ... {US operation in iraq }

Hey douchebag, last time i checked, my font size was just the way it has been. As for the light helicopters, well unless your light helicopters are crawling on to the battlefield, its still in the air and hence a PA Mechanized Infantry, populated with MANPADs and SAM capable APCs, would take on what the opposition has to bring to the fight!

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

When war came why was it decided to deploy II Corps forward as a holding formation alongside V Corps and XII corps rather than keeping it in reserve as for offensives as it was supposwed to be done. I know for a fact that Maj Gen Farooq Ahmed Khan who was GOC 1 AD at the time objected to this deployment and was replaced.

The good General was also the Earthquake relief commissioner later. Here a pic.

I always admire German tactics and their employment of Panzer divisions.British use of armour was mostly to support infantry.

Exactly my point of view. For me the Germans were masters of armored warfare right up to the end....they were always two steps ahead of Allies and Russians tanks in tanks and tactics. One must read campaigns of Guderian's IX mot. Corps and 2 Panzer Army in France and Russia to learn the proper employment and concentration (shwerpunkt) of an armored formation in face of a superior enemy!

No,thats y i said in later post about Mi17 and Al-qaswa,we dont have lavish funds as super power armies.saying about 5 helis per regiment meant if u look at it from war point of view,the tanks are not used to hold ground infact are kept under strict possible cover during organizing before an attack or -re-organizing after an attack,re-organizing may sometimes take afew hours to up to a whole day as per nature/aggressinevess of campaign.Therefore once drawn back or reorganizing,5 helis will have ample time to supply the regiment with necessary ammo.

If u have read about great campaigns of WW2 or even wars during cold era or indo-pak wars,nothing is acheived 100%,in reality what is planned by QM(quarter master) officer about supplying,only upto 60-70% is acheived at times.Considering the current Pakistan Army,which is supplied by 1-3 ton trucks which mostly travel on single roads during peace time and that also during nights and which will have to travel during war in deserts/plains of punjab or vulnerable roads in mountains of kashmir,dont u think even a 5 heli-supply team can get a squadron ready with necessary ammo in no time where the trucks would take double/triple time to reach and an important offensive might be compromised.

Good point....i think the way u say it, a squadron-level heli force can be useful for an armored regiment....but lets also not forget enemy MANPADS, also helis are expensive items to loose on the battlefield instead of trucks.I have another propostion. If we succeed in acquiring a suitable heli force, y not we place an elite inf bn on-board these helis......maybe the enemy air might interdict our APCs to supply inf to areas captured by tanks......in this case, the heli-borne inf could be used to quickly occupy captured enemy position, freeing our armored formation to continue the attack....otherwise, the same helis can be used to re-supply the tanks in case no such situation arises!We can also use the German way of capturing enemy aerodromes or forward airfields, send in our helis with inf to occupy it, thn let our hercules aircraft to ferry supplies at tht point,thus making a forward arming and refueling point (FARP), like in Op Desert Storm! Hercules can manage to ferry much more loads of supplies thn helis, if provided with a clear strip of ground! Such thing, i.e. a forward supply point, would increase our formation's range and its effectiveness!