Archive for July 5, 2012

Some time back, I was accidentally involved in a discussion on FB.It was rather a surprise. From my previous post on “There is always side story to evidence and Fact”, some friends commented on FB.In the end, it became a long discussion on theological issues.

Here I am posting the discussion itself.Although it is a very long post, the summary is that: one should be careful when making a sweeping/universal statement.For instance, a statement like “all birds fly” sounds correct, doesn’t it? Right? Wrong. Cassowary does not.What about “all human being have 2 eyes”? Right? Wrong. Some people were born blind from birth.The beggar in John 9 is still a human being even though he had had no eye balls until the miracle took place.Or, Samson the judge. He was still a human being even though his eye balls were pulled out.

Actually, I could have cut the argument short with certain keyword. I forgot to write that and it really dragged “-_-The conclusion of the discussion is that: some killing can be righteous (plenty examples from the Old Testament).”No killing is righteous” statement, although sounds fine, is not necessarily true all the time.So, here is the discussion. Enjoy!——————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

Friend 1: and it’s still you the one who kills..Jefri: And then? Will I be still jailed?Friend 1: no idea about that.. but you still sin..Jefri: Not at all.Friend 1: oh.. please remind me again about the ten commandments.. =)Jefri: Killing is not the same as murdering. After all, it is hypothetical case. I can just continue to add “it is not pre-meditated act”Friend 1: oh.. so it’s allowed to kill if you don’t have the intention to kill? nice! =DJefri: And what if I add “He comes to me with a knife then during the struggle the knife goes into his tummy”?Friend 1: did you have the chance to avoid the struggling?Jefri: And all of sudden we are discussing a crime scene?Friend 1: why? didn’t you have the chance to avoid the killing scenario?Jefri: And the fact that you keep asking proves that you have got the point: see the full story before making a full judgment.Friend 1: it’s true.. we have to see the full story before making full judgment.. and self defense is not one good excuse when it comes to sin.. *just my 2 cents.. =)Jefri: It looks like you have agreed with me. And let’s make it consistent too “Self defense can be one good excuse when it comes to sin depending on the full story.”Friend 1: nope.. I agree about the “full story”, but not about the self defense.. =P

Jefri: Talking about killing. Not all killing are sinful. Some pre-meditated killing are righteous.Friend 2: ‎”he tries to kill me first”… then the logical consequence become I have to kill him because i do not want to be killed?Maybe It is better, rather to say.. he attacked and I tried to defend myself and in the course of doing so he got stabbed. you are still clean in the sense you do not have intention to kill. But still.. it doesn’t eliminate the fact that you killed the person directly or indirectly.. premeditatively or not in this hypothetical situation.Friend 1: pre-meditated killings are righteous? o.O! wow!!’ I don’t want to continue this.. it’s getting wronger.. –.-“Friend 3: This is a problem older than the tenth commandment. Let’s add war and abortion into this list, and the debate will be a never ending story.. I think it’s safe to say that it’s only God who has the voice to judge whether a man is truly sin or not when doing something in a gray area.Friend 2: Yes..we are all judged by the Law but Christ gave us salvation in the new testament and the Law became the thing of the past but they are not obsolete. We know we can’t be saved by merely following the law.

Jefri: Judges 5:24-27. Although the context is not self defense, the point is clear: be it pre-mediated or not, self defense or not, some killing are righteous. Hence, see the full story. @Friend 2: It looks like you have got my point as well. See the full story. @Friend 3: It is important for human to judge. At least, we know whether I will get jailedFriend 1: seriously man, no killing is righteous.. let me know when you’re going to kill someone righteously, ok?! I want to see.. –.-“Jefri: Then, are you going to say Deborah is wrong?Friend 2: Yes. I got your point to see the full story. But still… I do not condone the statement that some killing are righteous. Can I say I have the right to tell other people’s life because I think it is righteous? The question goes to how we as limited man, able to discern that it is righteous. Of course, we cant hence we refer ourselves back to the moral authority.Jefri: Righteous killing: the Lord did not mind David killing Goliath. Sinful killing: The Lord was angry was David schemed Uriah’s deathFriend 1: ok. I got your point. if God tells you to do so, killing is not sinning.. am I right? Then, how can we be so sure if God really tells us to do so? because I have this urge for killing so many times in my life.. is that from God?Friend 3: that’s the problem here. the more important thing is, under which rule and authority are we talking here? you’re talking about jail, so you’re talking about government’s rule. I’m no expert on law, but I think there is government’s rule about self-defense. So we know we have a higher probability that you won’t go to jail. that’s where human can judge. but if you’re talking about hell, then that’s the area where I was saying it’s under God’s authority. if God frequently release news about which person go to hell and and which person go to heaven, I think we can take conclusion over time about which action is awfully wrong that have high potential to make us go to hell. but because He never release any “news” about that, you can never be so sure in your judgment about whether if killing will make you go to hell, because there is no “trial and error” can be observed. why this is important? because imperfect judgment can alter other people’s perception, which in turn can alter their actions, that can make someone which supposedly go to heaven, becomes thrown to hell (or vice versa). btw, in your “deborah’s case”, that’s the area about war, as I was mentioned. ^^

Jefri: @Friend 1: Exactly. “Do not murder” simply means human life belongs to God. God can remove it in whatever way He chooses. Hence, some killing are righteous.Friend 1: then, how can we be so sure if God really tells us to do so? because I have this urge for killing so many times in my life.. is that from God?Friend 2: So you in turn got my point that we always refer ourselves to the moral authority, the God himself. The case for David and Deborah was in old testament where God spoke directly to His prophets and in that sense they are ordered by God to do so. That doesnt mean that they kill because they think they are righteous. They are doing it with order from God.Jefri: @Friend 1: And that topic is beyond this conversation’s scope. My point is only one: some killing can be righteous depending on the full story.Friend 2: Yup I agree that this conversation has gone far beyond its original scope.Friend 1: and my point is: how can you be so sure that your killing is righteous? =) and yeah, not to forget that David was not allowed to build the House of God because he has shed too much blood during wars.. =)

Jefri: @Friend 2: My point is only one: some killing can be righteous depending on the full story. In Deborah’s case, it was because God asked him. Basically, we are just discussing the detail to it. Jefri: @ Friend 1: at least, God did not rebuke David when he killed Goliath, unlike Uriah’s case. And regarding your question, the answer is simple: one reason is because of God’s order. Please don’t forget your other point that you mentioned “no killing is righteous”. Some killing can be righteous. Jefri: @Friend 3: the statement “some killing can be righteous because it is God’s order” does not contradict your statement.

Friend 1: and you’re also allowed to steal, to rape or to cheat others if God tells you to do so.. because it is a righteous thing to do.. I’m off.. =)Jefri: Exactly. After all, Israelites killed Canaanites and stole their possession too. However, I can’t comment about raping. Hence, by extension, some stealing can be righteous (for instance, because God orders it).