Okay, these three terms are generally translated as "greed," "hatred," and, "delusion."

Sometimes greed is taken to mean craving, then ill-will, and furthermore ignorance in place of delusion. Ignorance is part of the chain of origination. So is craving. Some sources dictate that the translated roots "greed" and "delusion" are actually synonymous with the "craving" link of the chain, the "attachment" link of the chain, or the "ignorance" link of the chain and so forth. All these words seem so jumbled up to me.

I've always assumed the correct roots to be greed, hatred, and delusion. Now, happening upon these misgivings about translation and examination, once again, I've come to a confusing impasse. What is the contextual translation of greed, hatred, and delusion according to the text? And, do these terms correspond to terms in the chain (ergo, ignorance, craving, and attachment/clinging), do they not, or do some of them? I would really be thankful for some clarification on this, because I can't find any. I have a thorough understanding of dependent origination and the aggregates, as well as the elements and so forth. But I'm confused how terminologically the three unwholesome roots should be translated with respect to these words.

[I apologize. Let me rephrase: I think this is more a matter of literal translation, Pali Terms, and textual application. Meaning, word for word, do either three of the unwholesome roots match any of the links in dependent origination (including the Buddha's talks about craving in respect to aggregates). Furthermore are ignorance and delusion interchangeable as a causal link with the same meaning as the unwholesome root of "delusion." And so forth...]

I think it's best to avoid assuming that because a mindstate is applicable to one of the twelve nidanas, that it therefore doesn't apply to another. They are not mutually exclusive in this regard.

The treatment of dependent origination in Classical Theravada is complex, so I won't comment beyond that for now.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

The pali term for the unwholesome root of delusion or ignorance is moha, as Nyanatiloka says:

moha: 'delusion', is one of the 3 unwholesome roots (mūla). The best known synonym is avijjā.

Avija is the first part of the chain of dependent origination, so the root of delusion is pretty much how the chain starts.. I don't know the exact difference between avija and moha, but if you regard them as synonymous as suggested, that makes pretty much sense.

You can also find the pali-sources in the dictionary links provided. I find the pali words helpful for orientation, because the various english terms can cause quite a confusion.

Now about hatred/ill will (dosa)... from my perspective: it replaces greed when there is a negative feeling. A positive feeling can be craved for, but not a negative feeling - here ill-will or hatred would come in place as to "crave" for getting away from that which is unpleasant. But that is just my understanding how dosa fits in, really.

Alobha wrote:Now about hatred/ill will (dosa)... from my perspective: it replaces greed when there is a negative feeling. A positive feeling can be craved for, but not a negative feeling - here ill-will or hatred would come in place as to "crave" for getting away from that which is unpleasant. But that is just my understanding how dosa fits in, really.

I find the words "craving" ( tanha ) and "aversion" ( dosa ) give a good feel. Pulling in and pushing away.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

What the Buddha taught was the dhamma (not capital d), in which he tries to puts in words the Dhamma (capital D). Personally I try not to get to much messed up in the small dhamma, and try to see the big Dhamma. You can know all the terms in Dependent Origination, but in reality it is beyond words. One can think one has a solid understanding while one actually doesn't. Only noble ones have a real understanding of it and only arahants really see through all delusion. See also the passage below.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Kurus. Now, the Kurus have a town named Kammasadhamma. There Ven. Ananda approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."

[The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Apart from that, it is delusion which is the mother of all problems. When a text states "greed, hatred and delusion", it could just as well only state delusion, because the others are founded upon delusion as well, and are forms of delusion. And it is this delusion which gives rise to unwholesome karmic actions and keeps Dependent Origination going life after life.

The pali term for the unwholesome root of delusion or ignorance is moha, as Nyanatiloka says:

moha: 'delusion', is one of the 3 unwholesome roots (mūla). The best known synonym is avijjā.

Avija is the first part of the chain of dependent origination, so the root of delusion is pretty much how the chain starts.. I don't know the exact difference between avija and moha, but if you regard them as synonymous as suggested, that makes pretty much sense.

You can also find the pali-sources in the dictionary links provided. I find the pali words helpful for orientation, because the various english terms can cause quite a confusion.

Now about hatred/ill will (dosa)... from my perspective: it replaces greed when there is a negative feeling. A positive feeling can be craved for, but not a negative feeling - here ill-will or hatred would come in place as to "crave" for getting away from that which is unpleasant. But that is just my understanding how dosa fits in, really.

Best wishes,Alobha

My goodness me thank you so much. That's the sort of knowledge I was looking for. You're right, the English terms can be confusing especially if they're being used by non native Theravadin teachers, or by translations made by Americans. The Buddha does sort of describe ill will and hatred in that way, while answering the questions of Sakkha Deva. So I'm thankful for your insight.

A seed sleeps in soil.It's cold and alone, hopeless.Until it blooms above.

Son wrote:My goodness me thank you so much. That's the sort of knowledge I was looking for. You're right, the English terms can be confusing especially if they're being used by non native Theravadin teachers, or by translations made by Americans. The Buddha does sort of describe ill will and hatred in that way, while answering the questions of Sakkha Deva. So I'm thankful for your insight.