Forum:A serious discussion on our legendary n00b-unfriendliness

From Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia

Note: This topic has been unedited for 707 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not add to unless it really needs a response.

Okay, people, we are very well known for our hostility towards newcomers. I'm not giving reason to n00bs and IPs who flood us with garden supplements but I have just one small suggestion and I hope you also have something to say on the subject. My proposal is just making it very clear that no one can start a new article here unless it's already shaped like an article. In practice, that's what we are currently doing, but that really should be stated in the welcoming messages, guideline articles (as HTBFANJS), new page warnings (just as we already do regarding vanity) and even at the new user registration form. This also should be stated plainly and clear even if with redundancy - I mean not redirecting the user saying "read the Beginners Guide at this link" or something. -- herrdoktorneedsAsample[scream!] 13:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't noobs, but rather people who haven't got a CLUE what they are doing. For example, I would far rather have a noob edit one of my pages who knew how to format, had good ideas etc, than have a more experienced Uncyclopedian who knew nothing about formatting and had a history of ruining pages. Summary: GIVE NOOBS A CHANCE! --Urmu 17:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

No. Telling new people that they can't make new pages (even though this would cut down on crap) is the exact opposite of our motto. That being said, I'm not adverse to something in the Welcome template about how and why to start a new page under your username, tinker there, then move to mainspace when it's done. SirModusoperandiBoinc! 16:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It always feels quite unfriendly to have to QVFD and ICU minimal stuff that was written with the best of intentions, and it might cut down the new page count, at least outside userspace. As long as we can find a way of putting it succinctly enough so that the welcome template doesn't turn into any more of an essay... -- (but) UntrueWhhhy?Whut?How?*Back from the dead* 19:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What about: "Remember: when creating new articles, spend some time in an external editor in order to start with something already shaped like an article. This will avoid you lots of problems. Optionally, you can do it at your userspace: see XXXX for instructions". -- herrdoktorneedsAsample[scream!] 19:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Templates are another area where we bite the noobs. The rules seem to be largely unwritten. If there isn't already, there should be a page in BGBU clearly spelling out the rules for templates: not to spam, not to duplicate maintenance templates, etc. Alksub - VFHCMWARV {talk} 15:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. I agree. While we shoudn't condone templatespam and quotespam, we have no right to bite the n00bs and scare them away for it. --Crazyswordsman...With SAVINGS!!!! (T/C) 16:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with this, but I will say that I didn't find the community n00b-hostile, but then I guess I took my time, looked around and didn't act like a spong-head - although some occurrences of {{username}} did come as a shock initially! Being idiot hostile is fine, but making it clearer that writing articles under your username is a jolly fine idea would not go amiss.-Asahatter(annoy) 16:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

In cases where you keep a writer's sense of humility around you, Uncyc is very n00b-friendly. However, n00bs generally aren't known for their humility, which is why so many of them find us hostile. --ЖKalirpotentially sexier than you 21:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's very true, but I was talking more about good-faith editors who start an article "by the page" or just with the introduction. Let's avoid trauma. - herrdoktorneedsAsample[scream!] 21:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The majority write complete crap, if they stick around they learn to write something of quality, if not, they find the door on their own at least --Prof. OliproKUN(W)AnchorOpBur.(Harass) 21:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Asahatter, from the noob POV, when I decided to join this community, I took my time, read all the beginner's guides, read the forums, jumped on irc and generally was careful not to be a dick (at least I hope!) probably erring on the side of caution, I was petrified to edit anything to start with! I don't think the supposed "hostility" is necessarily a bad thing, it means our community generally attracts new members who agree with the unwritten "rules" and though it might be slow to grow, it does weed out the morons (think Billy Connolly "asshole detector pants" )
But to get back to the topic, I think that something which encourages new users to create their article under userpages and move it when complete. So much crap shows up on VFD that should have been started this way and save us the effort. /sigh ~ Dame Ceridwyn ~ talkDUNVoNSEarc2.010:26, 17 May 2007

HOW DO I EDIT PAGE? WHY IS ASPERGERS SYNDROME, OSCAR WILDE, AND ENCYCLOPEDIA DRAMATICA ARTICLES LOCKED? HOW DO I INSTALL FONT? WHY YOU DELETED MY ARTICLE I WROTE ABOUT MYSELF? WHY YOU BAN ME WHEN I TELL ADMIN TO FUCK OFF AND DIE IN A FIRE? WHY YOU BAN ME FOR BLANK ADMIN'S USER PAGE? Or so the N00bz keep on saying, but of course I paraphrased it a bit. --Lt.SirOrion Blastar (talk) 04:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Noobs can be classified into two categories: noobs that are ok and noobs that suck; these categories may also be labeled, respectively, as noobs that bother to read our policy pages and noobs that don't. --Sirgwax (talk) 18:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as a n00b myself, please could someone tell me how to send messages or talk or whatever it's called here?

The Uncle does not have a signature.-- The Uncle knows where you live 19:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as a relative n00b myself, is there a way to change the content of the pages ? I mean I read a lot, and some of the entries tell me to "change it if you don't like it" but I just can't figure out how. Any pointers, please ? -- di Mario 20:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, that depends... Do you know how to use a mouse? No, not the animal, that plastic thing with a cord. There, on your desk, pick it! No, don't lift it, just place your hand over it, but keep it on the table, damn! Well, as you move the mouse, a small arrow will move in the same direction. Try to point it (it's tricky but you can learn after some tries) to the blue "edit" word at the top of the screen. Found it? Okay, now stop moving the mouse! Stop! Take your hand off it! Yes, good... now press the left button at the front of it. WITHOUT MOVING! Once again, find the blue "edit". Stop the mouse. Click. Yaaay! Very nice, kid! Claps for him! -- herrdoktorneedsAsample[scream!] 20:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay...got there dun that. After several tries. I noticed a thingy move around the screen in synch with me moving the half-egg that came with the compy. An it changes shape too! How clevar. Only sry i do feel a bit stupid...how dow i press the left button ? Where is the left button ? How do i recognize it ? I examinded the compy but it only has an on-off button an a mysterious reset button. Should I press that ? An if so, how does the compy know if it was a left-handed press or a right-handed one ? Sry to bother you again, but i are a bit confusered. Oh, and hold the clap, please. -- di Mario 20:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, first, you need to examine your half-egg. Look at the front of it (where the string is coming from). Does it have things that click when you touch them? You need to touch the leftmost one while you have the mouse at the blue "edit" link. If it worked, the screen should look different and there will be a large box on the screen filled with letters. Use that thing with letters on it in front of you (not on the screen, on the desk or table or wherever the half-egg is). If you push a letter, it should show up in that box on the screen where the blinking line is. You can use the mouse (remember how to use that? push the clicking thing?) to move the line around so your letters show up in other places. If you need anymore help, feel free to ask. ЖKalirpotentially sexier than you 16:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

No, di Mario, do not listen to these people! They is try to steel your sole. Do this instead. Go to grandmother's house. Find where she is keeps the bottle marked WHITEOUT. Paints you then the screen-thing of your look-at-part of the computer, with whiteout. And then writes you the chaynges onto the whited out bits. When it is time to make more chaynges, buy or (more better) steel a new look-at-part for a computer and puts you the white-out on it all new. ----OEJ 01:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Well awfully sry to bother you again, but the half-egg thing actually has no strings attached and now it has stopped working all-together. Yesterday I noticed that the little red glow coming from under it did in fact no longer do so, and now whatever wild circumlocutions I perform wiv the thing, nothing happens. I recently discovered how to "click a bottom", but that also stopped working mysteriously from one day to the next. To make things worse, the other day I splilled some drinkies on the plank wiv all the letters on it, an now that stopped working too. Or well, it works to a degree, but when I for instance press down on the buttock labeled A it comes out on the scream thingy like say ^&4. Not much use there, ey. lUCKILY I HAVE DIRE NEIGHBOURS WHAT LET ME USE THEIR COMPy to type this (but their letter button plank is not exactly like mine used to be when it was in shape). Hopefully someone can tell me how to fix things, as this is quite an annoying way to behave for an electrical applyance that I payed Euro 6.500 for. Bye and Toodles in advance! -- di Mario 23:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

If only all life's problems were as easy to solve! All you need to do is address your complaint to William Gates III, One Microsoft Drive, Redmond, Washington, USA. He will instantly refund your 6.500 Euro and also give you a free "Intel Inside" sticker to affix to your forehead. Be careful to position it exactly between your eyes, above the bridge of your nose. For more serious computer issues, address William Gates II, or if it is a problem with your sex life, William Gates I.--Pieface 03:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

After the Head Injury I completely lost the ability to write so now I am forced to type everything. In fact, I bought the compy thing to type a letter of complaint to the Medical Broad, explaining that she should persecute the hospital where I was treated because they managed to disappear my brain prothesis. One morning I woke up to find that it was gone from the side table where I had put it the night before. Bastards! Not only do they deny any responsability for my loss, they are even accusing me of being delusional because brain protheses do not exist! Bastard rats! Well I'm going to sick my mostest bastardest lawyer on them an make them pay through their noses! Yes sirree! Oodles of Toodles, -- di Mario 12:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

William Gates III can help you with the brain prosthesis issue as well. He has one that he doesn't use. --Pieface 13:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Gee thanks! Maybe he'll lend it to me. Now if only I had a brain prothesis, then maybe I could figure out how to reach this III. Wait! Wots that ? Ah, yes of course! The yellow brick road! Now why didn't I fink of that ? Oh yes, no brain prothesis. Oh well, here goes... /me is off to see the wizzard, the wonnerful wizzard of OS'es. -- di Mario 16:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Really Unfriendly

Just to bring to your highnesses attention: the primary unfriendly treatment that I (your humble n00b) experience is one of being ignored. It's not a problem to me, but your highnesses might find this information useful. --Pieface 05:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Get used to it. Fix up an existing article. Write an original one. Write another. Improve. Eventually the world will take notice of your growing genius and people will have parades in your honour. The wind will whisper your name. Children will learn about you in Wiki-history class. You'll look back at now, from the future, and marvel at just how naive you were. Plus you'll wonder just how you ever thought that haircut was cool. SirModusoperandiBoinc! 05:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Uncyclopedia is like the Stonecutters: "I've never felt so accepted in all my life. These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." To get well known, you have to kill other users and steal their numbers. I am currently number 20, which marks me out as a ruthless killing machine. -- (but) UntrueWhhhy?Whut?How?*Back from the dead* 10:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Precipitate -- I mean participate -- in Pee Review, voting on VFD and VFH, and when you read an article you really like leave a congratulatory note on the user's talk page. The difficult thing is, of course, there are many many Uncyclopedians and a limited amount of attention that can reasonably be paid to them. Basically, the thing that each of us cares the most about is our own writing. Of course I speak for no one but myself, so when I say each of us I just mean me. But we care first about what we write, and noticing other people's stuff is what we do when we are not occupied by our own work. So my advice is, if you have to write then for God's sake write!! Being noticed for your writing is nice, but it has to be secondary. Otherwise you risk going mad and selling yourself on virtual street corners just for the attention. ----OEJ 03:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

My name is <<>> and I approve of --OEJ's message.--<<>> 03:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

How much can I get for myself on a virtual street corner? (Male, 59, balding, potbelly)--Pieface 04:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I would say not a lot, unless you had a great store of knowledge, a good sense of humour and charisma. Then the price would probably go up by a few <insert currency here>, because no-one cares about that sort of stuff anymore.--Nabister 09:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

...great store of knowledge...check!(but shallow)...sensayuma...check! (but perverted)...charisma...struck out on this one! Look, all I really want is to get laid. Why are you making it so complicated? --Pieface 10:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break: The "n00bs" deserve respect because many are merely "newbies"

I agree with Pieface's basic point, and I would like to add this: As I have tried to explain on my user page, the nature of my quasi-Aspie symptoms is such that the inherent wiki-ness of Uncyclopedia makes me more likely to be overenthusiastic about suboptimal ideas and to make stupid n00b mistakes. I'm fairly good at spotting vandalism and doing cleanup, but despite my best efforts I lack the satirical skills needed to write an entire article. I sometimes feel that I'm not being respected just because my mistakes seem to outweigh my useful contributions. (Summary: I am merely a "newbie" in mindset but often a "n00b" in terms of actual output.) I'm not asking to change Uncyclopedia's overall deletionist leanings, but please try to encourage userfication of stubs rather than outright deleting them. All in all, I just want the higher powers to think about whether it's okay to treat n00bs this way. Pentium5dot1 20:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. An edit conflict occurred, and I may as well explain that I am not truly a newbie in terms of how long I have been on Uncyc. The sense in which I am a newbie is in my general standing within Internet culture (due to my mental quirks, my schoolwork, etc.) Pentium5dot1 20:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

All in all, I just want the higher powers to think about whether it's okay to treat n00bs this way. Forgive me for not getting your point, but what do you mean by "this way"?--<<>> 20:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh crap, that's just the kind of n00b mistake I was talking about... By "this way," I meant "the way the n00bs are being treated right now." I hope that didn't diminish the value of my comment. If additional refactoring is necessary, please feel free to ask. Pentium5dot1 01:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I guess I just don't see us as being disrespectful to the new users, at least as admins. Sure, several users can be, but those are often the jerky users that get banned, anyways. So I guess I just don't see the problem.--<<>> 15:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Noob and newbie are synonymous to me, and though I understand it is seen as derogatory by some, I never use it to mean anything but "new user".

As for deleting pages, any admin will usually restore any deleted page to someone's userpage except in exceptional circumstances. However it would be impossible to do this for every new page that gets deleted. If it looks like someone has made an actual effort to write an article, but it's not up to the standard yet, it should be ICU'd, and they get a change to fix it/move it themselves. As many links to the guides and stuff have been added to all the appropriate pages as possible, so most people who are paying attention should see and read them.

I actually think the majority of admins would never treat a new user with any less respect just because they're new. •Spang•☃•talk•04:11, 29 May 2007

Um, my point was supposed to be this: Not everyone is an expert on Internet culture, not everyone has great social/creative skills, and not everyone who contributes has the time to be an all-star contributor. That all has to be taken into account somehow. Pentium5dot1 21:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I don't hate n00bs, newbies, or whatever you call them. I hate stupid people, and people who don't bother to READ, especially when at the bottom of EVERY PAGE YOU EDIT it says, "Please read the Beginner's Guide, and please be funny and not just stupid." If you can't do even that, I shall hate you for a good long time, regardless of how new or old you are. I don't care how internet savvy someone is - I care about how willing they are to take the time to learn something new, and how willing they are to try to be a useful contributor.

Unfortunately, a good number of our new members think that anything they see on their screen is theirs to do as they please with, because it's on THEIR COMPUTER. What many seem to fail to understand is that this is a community which already belongs to a large group of people. Just because you stumble across this site doesn't make it your playground, to do as you wish in. Like any community, you need to take some time to get to know people, and observe the social norms. I wouldn't join PETA and expect them to throw me a BBQ, I wouldn't join the NRA and push anti-gun pamphlets at them, and I wouldn't join the KKK and ask them to help me with my NAACP fund raiser. Sure, I could do all those things, but it wouldn't get me accepted in that community. In fact, they would probably be pretty hostile to such n00bish activities.

If you want to become a member of any community, you need to know their social norms and rules, you need to get to know the people in it, and you need to spend some time observing how the whole thing works. Unfortunately, a lot of our "legendary n00b-unfriendliness" is directed towards n00bs who don't bother to do any of these things. It's not like we have mysterious initiation ceremonies, or hide the rules here. Yes, this is an open wiki, which everyone can edit. However, it's not a wiki which anyone can edit, and where everyone else is required to like their edits and kiss their ass, regardless of how ignorant, stupid, or egotistical they are. The internet is full of people who believe they own the internet. Those people get pissy when they come here, and find out that that is not so. Of course, many of those people are pissy and claim that everyone is unfriendly to n00bs everywhere, because they always behave the same way at every site they visit. [1]SirFamine,Gun♣Petition»05/29 23:47

I hope I am not once again being ostracized for failing to be clear enough. I am not recklessly disregarding the social conventions of Uncyclopedia nor of any other community, nor do I think that all netizens hate noobs. The problems I am mentioning are a result of...um, let me reiterate...well, even though I've never been officially diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, it's manifest to certain people who know me that I have some degree on it. That and schoolwork are the reasons I am persistently failing to be an all-star Uncyclopedian. Please have mercy. Thank you. Pentium5dot1 03:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Seriously Pentium5dot1 - you don't have to apologise for everything! :-) Famine's just laying out some general guidelines to all n00bs I think rather than targetting you personally... -- (but) UntrueWhhhy?Whut?How?*Back from the dead* 09:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Sbu, I'm deeply sorry that P5.1 keeps apologizing unnecessarily. If there's anything I can do to be more sorry, I'm sorry. SirModusoperandiBoinc! 12:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm really sorry Modus, I don't think there's anything you can do unless you can make people apologise less for things they don't need to. I'm also sorry to say that I hate unnecessary apologies, and anyone making one from now on is going to be very sorry. -- (but) UntrueWhhhy?Whut?How?*Back from the dead* 16:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not a full moon. If it was he'd be madcap howling and marking his territory. The villagers call him Werfamine. I was all, "Ooo, wer-something. How original.", which annoyed them, so they torched me with their torches and poked me relentlessly with their pitchforks. Damn villagers... SirModusoperandiBoinc! 01:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I sympathize with the guy! Famine is definitely a little bit.....intimidating......

Other notes

^ It should be noted that I am unfriendly to everyone, thus making any claim of my unfriendliness towards n00bs in general a moot point.

I suck

Or sucked, anyway. No, scratch that, I still suck. But anyway, look: here is my first edit. Exactly the kind of thing that we delete, revert and ban the perpetrators of every day, and, true to form, it got me banned (yay Lawnmower!). So over I popped to IRC, where I immediately annoyed everyone there and soon ended up banned from there too. I then unwittingly started a quasi-flamewar with an admin on my talkpage. A charming CV, I think you'll agree.

Anyway, long story short, I learnt my lesson and through a long and convoluted chain of events which may or may not involve bribery, corruption and systematic blackmail with a bowl of cold spaghetti bolognese, I ended up as an admin. Yup, I don't know how it happened either.

I was about as idiotic and hyperactive a noob as it's possible to be, just through pure ineptitude. I wasn't evil (well, only a little) or moronic (oh, fine) just crashingly naive and mind-numbingly uninformed. And maybe a little bit fluffy, with cute bug-eyes.

But it would have saved the admins a lot of trouble and me a lot of confusion if someone had just told me what was what before they assumed I was out to cause trouble. A lot of people were great, but it tends to shatter the rose-tinted spectacles a bit when you encounter the people who manifestly aren't - whether it's cause they're stressed or busy or they've had a bad day or whatever. I barely knew what a wiki was, for godsake. I was a prime specimen of Crappus Noobius, but not deliberately and not because I was a particularly bad person. Oi, I said particularly. Stop throwing those eggs. What's that? You want me to get down off the soapbox now? Okay, okay, I'm going... Ow! Really, I'm going! Not the pie!! OW!

*cough* Um, yeah. So... maybe it might help to give noobs more of a chance before we bite their heads off. I didn't used to notice it before I left, but checking back recently I can see a lot of potentially okay people getting scared off. I know how it is, especially if you haven't been around all that long yourself - the little things can be really annoying because you remember yourself doing them and you're just getting established and all, but imagine if it was you three months ago... you didn't know the wiki, you didn't know the people and now suddenly there are people you don't know shouting at you because you committed an unknown crime. Waa.

Rule Three of Forum Fight Club: Don't beat yourself up. (Rule One is don't talk about you-know-what ((doodies)) and Rule Two is don't talk about talking about Forum Doody Fights. I think.) ----OEJ 23:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought Rule Three was "do beat yourself up, as long as you think you're actually someone else due to a twisted and slightly unbelievable chain of events involving soap"? -- (but) UntrueWhhhy?Whut?How?*Back from the dead* 00:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Besides being indestructable, n00bs are also blessed with the supernatural power to ignore name-calling and insults. This is an unexpected side benefit of our numerousness and our ability to instantly mutate into even more unpleasant forms.--Pieface 04:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry. Soon the n00b will emerge from it's chrysalis as an adult user. Then it'll sleep in until noon and only emerge from it's room to eat or borrow the car keys. SirModusoperandiBoinc! 06:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It's only fitting that n00bs, cockroaches, and twinkies will be the only ones to survive the oncoming bruning. Birds of a feather... -- 06:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hang on, you did not give me enough time to disallowing it, although I have this sneeking suspicion that not allowing you to would not make a lick of difference. nice quote. --Vosnul 07:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't read a god damn thing and look how I turned out. Everyone still hates me ^_^ 11:37, 15 June 2007