Ah so Bayern and 1860 are stadium sharing, also what will happen to 1860's crappy ground (real dump - onto a winner if they are groundsharing with Bayern!!!! Olympiastadion is still the 2nd largest stadium in Germany then (and will remain so for the forseeable future then?) at around 76,000 and the Westfalenstadion at around 82,000 then yes?? I took a few pictures of the Olympiastadion when I was in Berlin - quite a nice mix of stone and refurbish interior

Germany doesn't have a 3rd division. There are 2 Bundesliga leagues then after that you have regional leagues made up of mainly amatuer teams like Hamburger SV-2, FC Köln-2, SV Werder Bremen-2, TSV Bayer 04 Leverkussen-2, FC Bayern München-2 etc.

"Below the level of the 2.Bundesliga, leagues are most often subdivided on a regional basis. For example, the Regionaliga is currently made up of a Nord (North) and Sud (South) division, and the Oberliga is comprised of divisions representing states, or large urban and geographical areas. League structure has shifted frequently and typically reflects the degree of participation in the sport in various parts of the country. In the early 90's, changes were driven by the reunification of Germany and the subsequent intregration of the national leagues of East and West Germany.

Every team in the Bundesliga must have a license to play in the league, or else they get relegated into the regional leagues. To obtain a license teams must be financially healthy and meet certain standards of conduct as organizations."

At the moment the list reads -

Bundesliga - 39717, Premiership - 33647

Bundesliga 2 - 13122, Championship - 17382

The DFB predicts averages will end up around the 41000 mark at the end of the season, as crowds will get bigger as the winter months come to an end. Crowds are always a bit lower in Germany in the Dec-Feb months.

The DFB predicts averages will end up around the 41000 mark at the end of the season, as crowds will get bigger as the winter months come to an end. Crowds are always a bit lower in Germany in the Dec-Feb months.

I await the wrath of the English 'fanboys'!!

I'm convinced Germany will break the 40,000 barrier. Well done to them, the policy of constructing larger stadia than required to allow for fan number growth and cheap tickets is really paying off in the Bundesliga.

Steve Edwards informs me; 'Haringey Council have now approved plans for the redevelopment of the East Stand at White Hart Lane. When completed this will increase the capacity of White Hart Lane to 50,000. However, the Club will not go ahead with the re-development until the Government improve transport links around the stadium. The Club have even mooted that if the transport situation is not adequately resolved, they would leave the Lane and possibly move to the new Wembley Stadium that is currently being built'.

I don't how Spurs could add 14,000 seats to the East stand. That info has been there for years at the time that info came out (2001) Spurs actually had plans to make WHL 44,000 by re-building the East stand so I don't know about that site whether to beleave it or not.

It is the most respected UK stadium site!! All the latest updates are in the forums. The Spurs page is probably out of date as nothing is going to happen with WHL in the near future or a fan simply got his facts wrong! Go to the forums and vote for the perfect UK stadium!! The main stand has been chosen (Ibrox), but the other 3 are up for grabs (The 'ideal ground' can't have two stands from the same ground) -

It is the most respected UK stadium site!! All the latest updates are in the forums. The Spurs page is probably out of date as nothing is going to happen with WHL in the near future or a fan simply got his facts wrong! Go to the forums and vote for the perfect UK stadium!! The main stand has been chosen (Ibrox), but the other 3 are up for grabs (The 'ideal ground' can't have two stands from the same ground) -

indeed, most german 2nd league stadiums are far bigger as well, including several 2006 wc stadiums with 2nd or even lower league teams like düsseldorf or leipzig.

Your being misleading with Leipzig. The boyfriend of a friend of mine, plays for their team, and has he tells me the club has to pay a crippling amount of rent to use the stadium from its owner. Additionally Leipzig was built because the previous stadia was one of the largest in the Eastern Bloc, and it was thought to be appropiate to replace it, after unification with a fitting modern stadium appropiate to the city's former legacy.

All the English 2nd League Stadia are owned by their clubs, and by and large most of them reach near capacity.

It is though, a very fine stadium, for a very nice city.

__________________
The Scottish people have a moral duty to vote SNP in May.

The German Bundesliga has higher average attendances at the moment becasue of various factors:

a) There has been a fairly recent construction of lots of high capacity, high quality stadiums which fans are attracted to, meaning average attendances are bound to be higher with higher capacity, quality stadiums.

b) With the World Cup approacing in Germany, football has been given even greater scope in recent years for German club football.

c) Ticket prices are extraordinarily cheap, with the average price being €18 compared to the English avergae €44.

d) Germany's population of over 80m far outstrips that of the English 50m

e) Recent success in football for German club teams has gained more interest from fans.

But, through all of this, the English Premiership is still probably the most respected, world renown, passionate and exciting league in the world at the moment, with the Spanish La Liga very close behind.

Plus, with Arsenal's new 60,000 stadium, Liverpool's probable new 60,000 stadium some time in the future, Man United's expansion of Old Trafford to 76,000 and other clubs thinking about or currently updadting their own stadiums, I think the Premiership will see higher everage attendances then ever in coming years.

__________________Over ONE HUNDRED MILLION sharks are killed each year by humans, 11,000 sharks every hour of every day.

Many species of the oldest predator on this planet will be extinct in less than 50 years at this rate. They will never be here again.

The German Bundesliga has higher average attendances at the moment becasue of various factors:

a) There has been a fairly recent construction of lots of high capacity, high quality stadiums which fans are attracted to, meaning average attendances are bound to be higher with higher capacity, quality stadiums.

b) With the World Cup approacing in Germany, football has been given even greater scope in recent years for German club football.

c) Ticket prices are extraordinarily cheap, with the average price being €18 compared to the English avergae €44.

d) Germany's population of over 80m far outstrips that of the English 50m

e) Recent success in football for German club teams has gained more interest from fans.

But, through all of this, the English Premiership is still probably the most respected, world renown, passionate and exciting league in the world at the moment, with the Spanish La Liga very close behind.

Plus, with Arsenal's new 60,000 stadium, Liverpool's probable new 60,000 stadium some time in the future, Man United's expansion of Old Trafford to 76,000 and other clubs thinking about or currently updadting their own stadiums, I think the Premiership will see higher everage attendances then ever in coming years.

You must be havin a laugh mate!! The Premiership is bloody awful at the moment. The atmosphere at games is terrible due to boring fans who sit all game and don't sing or do anything to help create an atmosphere! German games have amazing atmosphere due to passionate fans who sing all game, arrange great fan displays and give it their all for 90 minutes. They also have large standing terraces at nearly all German stadiums which helps the atmosphere. There is no comparison, German games have amazing atmosphere!!

I've stopped watching the Premiership because it's so rubbish. On most games on Sky you can hear a pin drop and the league is pointless as Chelsea have won it before a ball is kicked.

The Premiership has been 'self-declared' the best league in the world by English fans, but in reality it is utter mince!! It was good about 4 years ago, but it has been going downhill ever since. Most game are terrible!! You would have to pay me to watch the likes of Aston Villa, Sunderland, Birmingham City, Charlton Athletic, West Bromwich Albion, Portsmouth, Everton. Most games on Sky could send you to sleep!!

At English games, all you see is punters sitting around looking drab in drab clothes, sitting on their arses doing nothing. Lots of them don't even wear team colours!! I hope the Premiership improves as right now it's terrible with absolutely no passion or excitement!! All the English guys at my work even admit they don't watch nearly as many games on Sky as they used to, as they find it boring and Chelsea have won it before the season starts!!

You have obviously never been to a German league game! It's amazing, truly passionate fans who sing, chant and give it their all for 90 minutes. It's like nothing you have ever seen in the UK!! They really love their football!! I'm afraid the days of UK fans being passionate at games has well and truly ended!!

Look at these photos from German league games - these are just ordinary league games - no comparison i'm afraid!!

BuBomb, don't overload the thread with pictures you idiot, you should post no more then 5 pics really if you wanna respect the presence pf other users...but then again, judging from what I have seen of you on thses forums, I'm talkin to a brick wall aint I?

I never said football in Germany wasn't passionate, I'm well aware that the fans are well up for the games. But this isn't the case in EVERY game as you seem to suggest. And what the hell are you talking about the Premiership being 'bloody awful'....this all relates back to one thing, the massive amounts of pictures, the criticism etc etc, it all comes back to your blatent dislike and/or bitterness towards England. The Premiership is just as passionate and intense as it has ever been. And I should know, I watch every game possible on t.v. or at Old Trafford, so don't give me this crap about fans just sitting around and not creating an atmosphere, cus quite frankly, ure talkin shit. Even in games where there is no real rivalry, there is still a decent atmosphere and you can more often then not hear fans singing and chanting. All right, maybe not 100% of time, every second of every single match, but I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that the English are probably the most passionate nation about football in the world. Sometimes this isn't a good thing, as the fans go too far with their desire to see England or thier club team do well. But still, games in the premiership are as intense and exciting as ever they were. It may not be up to the Scottish league's standard, where you have only two big teams, with only one real rivalry, where games are dull as hell, there are no legendary players, no world status, no....anything. It's no wonder Celtic and Rangers are always begging to be allowed to join the Premiership...dream on guys, dream on!

This thread is about Championship football and its stadia in England, so all this german league nonsense doesn't belong here, and neither do you BuBomb, as you seem to have a canny ability to ruin even the most obscure threads with your blatent anti-english comments. A lot of the time it isn't direct critiscm, it is done sneakily so you can claim later that you never said anything wrong, but it is more the general fact that you never ever say anything good about anyhing English, and every time someone else says soemthing good about england, you point out all the bad areas and give facts that say other countries are better then what England have got.. Give it a rest BuBomb, you're a bitter Scot, we get it, don't keep going on about it!

__________________Over ONE HUNDRED MILLION sharks are killed each year by humans, 11,000 sharks every hour of every day.

Many species of the oldest predator on this planet will be extinct in less than 50 years at this rate. They will never be here again.

The Premiership is just as passionate and intense as it has ever been. And I should know, I watch every game possible on t.v. or at Old Trafford, so don't give me this crap about fans just sitting around and not creating an atmosphere, cus quite frankly, ure talkin shit. Even in games where there is no real rivalry, there is still a decent atmosphere and you can more often then not hear fans singing and chanting.

You don't have a clue!! I have been to many English games and the atmosphere is the same as it is in Scotland - utter shite. Fans just sit and watch the game and do nothing to create an atmosphere. I have been to see Man United and Liverpool numerous times and the atmosphere was shocking. Same goes for nearly all Rangers and celtic home games (apart from European games). At Old Trafford there was 67500 fans at the game I went to, and the place was so quiet with not a single fan display - it was terrible!!

Ticket prices doesn't explain why German games have an atmosphere that is literally hundreds of times better than UK games. A 50000 crowd in Germany will be have an amazing atmosphere with amazing displays and fans going nuts for 90 minutes - a 50000 crowd in the UK will have nearly 50000 fans sitting doing nothing except playing with their mobile phones!!

As for being anti-English, I am talking about Scotland as well. Most honest UK fans will admit the atmosphere at most games in the UK is shockingly bad!! You have simply shown yourself as being anti-Scottish by having a go at Scotland simply because that is where I live!! Don't dish it out if you cry when you get it back!!

Just look at the German pics!! You never see anything like that in the UK!! Admit it - you have never been to a German game, because if you had you would know that UK crowds create rubbish atmospheres compared to German league games!!

As for the The Premiership being just as passionate and intense......grow up!! I doubt even the English people on this board will back you up with that one!! It's no longer the 'FA Barclaycard Premiership', it's the 'Who will come 2nd FA Barclaycard Premiership'!!

This might come as a shock to you, but countries other than England have 2nd divisions and 2nd tier stadiums

If I went off-topic by talking about top German division stadiums, then you also went off-topic by talking about top English division stadiums. To be honest though, I doubt you will understand or see this!!

Do you realise this is an international board and not an English stadium board? This thread is called 'Second Tier Stadia', not 'English only Second Tier Stadia'!!