OVERSEAS visitors suspected of working in the sex trade, of smuggling drugs or belonging to a terrorist organization will not be allowed to enter China during the 2008 Beijing Olympics, organizers of the Games said today.

Foreigners with mental or epidemic diseases, including tuberculosis and leprosy, will also not be issued visas to visit China, the Organizing Committee said in a circular published on its official Website.

Entry would be banned to anyone with “subversive” intent upon arriving in China, according to the rule.

“Foreigners must respect Chinese laws while in China and must not harm China’s national security or damage social order,” the rule states.

Publications as well as computer storage devices with content harmful to China’s politics, cultures, morals and economy are also prohibited, the circular said.

However, visiting foreigners may bring one pet during their visit.

During their staying in China, overseas visitors shall also obey public rules. Drunkards in public areas might be detained by police, according to the pamphlet.

Visitors are not allowed to sleep outdoors and shall keep passports, ID or driver’s licenses with them at all times, the pamphlet said.

Some areas in the country are not open to foreigners and overseas visitors will not be allowed to enter, the rule said.

“Foreign spectators will not necessarily automatically get visas just because they have bought Olympic tickets. They need to apply for visas in accordance with rules at Chinese embassies,” the list said.

The pamphlet also outlines six activities which are illegal at cultural or sporting events, including waving “insulting banners,” attacking referees or players, smoking, and lighting fireworks in venues.

Having lived in both countries, I think the Chinese treat foreigners quit a bit better than the Japanese do. Can’t say I’ve ever seen a “no foreigners” sign in China, nor have I ever been excluded from any public places for being white. Maybe Japan should take a cue from China instead of jealously looking down on it so often. Japan’s attitude towards China really shows just how deep their inferiority complex towards China’s unseating of them as the next emerging power is.

Visitors are not allowed to sleep outdoors and shall keep passports, ID or driver’s licenses with them at all times, the pamphlet said.

It looks like while the Chinese government is forcing people to carry ID, they can carry any form they like. Contrast this treatment with how the Japanese government forces a specific card to be carried at all times by not only foreign visitors, but even by permanent residents of many decades’ standing!

China is ofen criticized for its restrictions on aspects of daily human life, but on this particular front they’re ahead of Japan. Score one for the Chinese — or, more accurately, score minus one for Japan.

“It looks like while the Chinese government is forcing people to carry ID, they can carry any form they like. Contrast this treatment with how the Japanese government forces a specific card to be carried at all times by not only foreign visitors, but even by permanent residents of many decades’ standing!”

I don’t know about others on this blog, but when I studied at a university in Kunming for a MONTH, I had to register with the local police and carry around an official card telling them who I was. In Japan it is 90 days (well it was when I arrived; I assume it is still the case) and you go to the city office, a much less confrontational experience in my book. Also, I doubt a Chinese policeman would take too kindly to someone using the law to question his authority when he asks for identification.

Carl “I think the Chinese treat foreigners quite a bit better than the Japanese do.”

There’s a reason for that. Foreigners (that is westerners) in China are often wealthy by Chinese standards. Speaking for myself, I was almost refused service at a Chinese barber’s shop because the guy didn’t ‘know how to cut 老外 hair’. The only reason I was served was because I came with a Chinese friend who explained that I could pay a little extra. While I was out in the back-blocks of the country, I also met an Australian who was constantly being harrassed in the village where she lived.

In any case, comparing Japan’s record on race relations with a communist nation that regularly suppresses its minority ethnic populations with military force when they get uppity about sovereignty rights is a little bit on the nose for this 老外. You do know what the big star on the Chinese flag at the centre of the four little ones means, don’t you?

As Debito said, a reality check is in order.

–Yes, come to think of it, what do those stars on the Chinese flag stand for? Complete tangent, but genuinely curious.

Historically they represent the Communist Party and the four classes that the state is supposed to unite. Since Maoist doctrine is not so fashionable these days (although multiculturalism is, so long as the ‘multicultures’ know their place) the interpretation has shifted so that some people say that the big star represents the Han Chinese, while the four little stars represent China’s ethnic minorities. According to the communist myth, the notion of five Chinese peoples with the Han acting as the ethnic majority was thought up by Sun Yat-sen, but although he was alright (founder of the modern nation and all), his Nationalist party was too backward to recognise minorities.

“I had to register with the local police and carry around an official card telling them who I was”

I’d like to know when that was, because I’m in China typing this as we speak, as legal resident of this country, and I don’t have to carry anything. They’ve greatly streamlined and changed the residence permit policies since 2004.

“Speaking for myself, I was almost refused service at a Chinese barber’s shop”

That’s the difference between ignorance and racism, IMHO. China having had less contact with foreigners than Japan has will lead Chinese without much contact with foreigners to make ignorant comments like that because they don’t know any better. Japan, on the other hand, has no excuse for putting up “only pure blood Japanese only” signs.

“I also met an Australian who was constantly being harrassed in the village where she lived”

Harrassed as in people calling her “da bizi” or “laowai” whenever she walks outside? Yeah, I think that’s a given in a village where people probably have never seen foreigners before. Happens to me in my city all the time, too. I never said there was no racial ignorance in China, just that, on the whole, my experiences in China have been much better than in Japan. Though there certainly are more western-style “comforts of home” in Japan than in China, for sure.

“comparing Japan’s record on race relations with a communist nation that regularly suppresses its minority ethnic populations”

Oh, please. Japan just finally got around to recognizing the Ainu, their aboriginal people, as a distinct ethnic group after…what…thousands of years of suppressing and ignoring them? How about the Burakumin (not a race, but same problem)? You’re going to defend Japan’s race relations on this webpage, which is practically devoted to how unfairly Japan treats minorities?

–Slight correction on the Ainu, FYI. Japan’s only had contact with them for about, say, 500 or so years. But’s what’s a few hundred years between friends… 🙂

“I’d like to know when that was, because I’m in China typing this as we speak, as legal resident of this country, and I don’t have to carry anything.”

This was in 2005. Perhaps it was a stipulation for temporary students or something. Perhaps it was because I was staying with a Chinese family who might be ‘infected’ by my dangerous thoughts.

“That’s the difference between ignorance and racism, IMHO. China having had less contact with foreigners than Japan has will lead Chinese without much contact with foreigners to make ignorant comments like that because they don’t know any better.”

Come now. Stop making excuses. This was in Kunming, the capital of Yunnan, the province that celebrates its ethnic diversity. The area that acted as a staging ground for U.S. forces in the fight against the Japanese.

China has had historically relatively little involvement with foreign/western culture? Walk up and down the Bund or through the French Concession and tell me that. In comparison Japan opened up some two decades after China fought wars against the west and only selectively allowed foreigners in afterwards, except of course, during the period of occupation. If ignorance was an excuse for racism, Japan would ‘win’ hands down and this blog would not exist.

“You’re going to defend Japan’s race relations on this webpage, which is practically devoted to how unfairly Japan treats minorities?”

No, but I’m going to point out that a comparison of China’s record with Japan’s on this issue is silly. I’ve never heard of an incident since the Second World War (i.e. since the doctrine of minority rights and self determination has really emerged) where the Ainu or the burakumin, for example, have been gunned down by the SDF for their crime of demanding greater recognition or their failure to adhere to the principles of the LDP. (That there are none is beside the point).

Japan may have its bad points, but it is no China.
The locals my treat you nicely, but that’s hardly an indication of their tolerance for difference.

I’ll tell you what, laowai, why don’t we set up an experiment? You stand in front of the People’s Hall with a Tibetan flag shouting insults at the government for their treatment of that minority and I’ll stand in front of the Diet with an Ainu flag doing the same. Let’s see who gets molested by the authorities first.

Japan also has a system of registration with local police — they make home visits, to nationals and foreigners alike, and record information on green sheets that are stored in the police box. When they visit you, they’re nowhere near as confrontational and dangerous as a street cop looking to impress the locals by harassing a foreigner for a few minutes. You actually get a chance to know them, they give you their own names, and there’s a good chance they’ll remember you. Thus in your own neighborhood, at least, you shouldn’t have trouble with paranoid cops.

I’d vastly prefer more extensive local police relations than what goes on now. Were you accosted on the street and accused of being an illegal immigrant routinely, or was the local registration your only interaction with police?

“Were you accosted on the street and accused of being an illegal immigrant routinely, or was the local registration your only interaction with police?”

No, I wasn’t stopped by the police, but as noted before, this is not my experience in Japan either, despite living five minutes away from a koban (doesn’t everyone). The only experience that resembled the harassment often described here was when I was tailed by some guys in a private security company car while out for a jog about five years ago. I knocked on their window to ask them why they were following me and to tell them to piss off. They said they were a new company trying to make a name for themselves and had to show residents that they were serious about protecting the neighborhood (who the hell pays these people? I inquired at the Shiyakusho but they had nothing to do with it). I told them that I was part of the neighborhood and it was one of the safest places I’d ever lived in. I haven’t seen them since. Maybe they went under.

I haven’t seen any men with green forms either. Is it a local initiative?

Carl, the requirement for registering with the Chinese police only applies when you are living under the same roof with a Chinese family, not in a hotel or foreign student dorm etc. (someplace licensed for foreigners to stay there). If you stay with a Chinese family, then you must register with the local police within 24 hours. Doesn’t even matter if you are related to them (Mr. Panda is Chinese & I routinely flout this rule on visits to the homeland, but that is another matter…)

I had a Japanese friend who was “reported” by the local residents as a “spy” when he stayed the night with some Chinese friends & did not report to the police as required.

Chinese govt is every bit as paranoid as Japan about the corrupting influence of laowai.

“Carl, the requirement for registering with the Chinese police only applies when you are living under the same roof with a Chinese family, not in a hotel or foreign student dorm etc”

Just thought I’d mention that I (a white American) am married to a Chinese woman and live in the family home with the in-laws. Never had to register with the cops (or, more accurately, I DO have to according to the letter of the law but, in reality, the issue was dismissed with a “eh, don’t worry about it” by the attractive young lady behind the desk at the local 派出所). Just more of the same “when rules aren’t really rules” phenomenon that happens all over China (and probably Japan, too) every day.

“Perhaps it was a stipulation for temporary students or something”

It seems odd. What card did they give you? As far as I know, foreign teachers and foreign students are only issued 中华人民共和国外国人居留许可 pasted in your passport and aren’t required to carry it (who would carry their passport at all times?). Could be a regional thing, though.

I wont even bother to address your poorly-informed comments about Tibet. Do you get off on legitimizing race riots?

“had a Japanese friend who was ‘reported’ by the local residents as a ‘spy'”

I stand corrected as far as that point goes. I didn’t even consider the kind of racism that a Japanese guy in China might encounter, though that’s another issue altogether.

Still, having lived in both places, I enjoy China more than Japan and think it feels quite a bit lighter out here. But I have been here longer and my Chinese is much better than my Japanese. ::shrug:: Chalk it up to personal preferences, I guess.

“I wont even bother to address your poorly-informed comments about Tibet. Do you get off on legitimizing race riots?”

I don’t condone the violence, but one man’s race-riot is another’s independence movement. And in any case, we don’t know that the suppression of minorities is the result of ‘race riots’. We only have the stories that the Chinese media feeds us. The information that gets out from international journalists based in China (which, if you are in China, you don’t get to see) paints a very different picture.

In any case, freedom of speech for oppressed minorities is another thing altogether. Do you think you would last long running around China advocating a free Tibet, no matter what the political merits of the argument? If you do, it is pretty clear you’ve been drinking the local (red) Kool aid.

One of the reasons Debito can operate a blog critical of the Japanese government is because the Japanese government, unlike the PRC, tolerates free speech. So enjoy away, but please don’t preach to me about Chinese tolerance.

Yeah, nothing like burning down hospitals and mosques, assaulting pedestrians of any ethnicity who happen to be in your way, and committing arson that results in the deaths of little babies and women working in a clothing store (including ethnic Tibetans) to gather steam for your “independence movement,” huh? What were the differences, pray tell, between the recent Lhasa Riots and, say, the 1992 LA Riots? Did you support those riots as well? Sorry Big B, what happened in Tibet recently was nothing more than a race riot, plain and simple. And you’re lending credibility to it by making it out to be some kind of struggle for “human rights.”

“which, if you are in China, you don’t get to see”

Let me guess: you’re not in China now, are you? Because FOX News, Wikipedia, CBC, NHK, CNN, Yahoo News, and all the others are available for anyone who happens to have a computer. I was, in fact, surprised by the level of openness in China now following those terrible riots. Also, even in times of harsh government cntrol, anyone who speaks English can access anything by proxy.

“freedom of speech for oppressed minorities is another thing altogether”

Yep, freedom of speech is one thing, rioting is another. That’s why when Tibetan minorities complain about the government nothing happens (I’ve seen this with my own eyes, BTW). Monks stockpiling weapons in their temple is something else altogether and should be punished. I’ve a sinking feeling that you’re (for whatever reason) sympathetic to the “plight” of the Tibetan people and this pollutes your views of China. Am I wrong? I doubt it.

“Do you think you would last long running around China advocating a free Tibet”

Tibet is part of China and has been since the 12th century. I hereby challenge you to name any country in the world that would tolerate a group of people advocating for the seccession of said country’s territory. America? Nope, ever heard of the Civil War? Britain? Ever heard of Northern Ireland? Russia? Ever heard of Chechnya? Also, can you name another country that wouldn’t send soldiers or police to quell violents riots with force? China didn’t do anything in Lhasa that any other country wouldn’t do.

“please don’t preach to me about Chinese tolerance”

Sorry, but you need a lecture on Chinese reality. Did your whole, big, long MONTH in Kunming really enlighten you so much about China? I doubt it. Have you ever been to Tibet and spoken with Tibetans without the aide of a translator? Well, I have…and the responses I got from ordinary Tibetans were eye-opening. I visited Tibet in 2004 and didn’t meet a single person who wanted “independence,” nor did I meet anyone who complained about “Han chauvinisim.” I heard plenty of people complain about certain government policies, but NEVER did I meet anyone who wanted Tibet to break away from China. Do yourself a favor and visit Tibet sometime. You might learn something.

Apologies to Debito-san: this has very little to do with the topic of your post and I don’t want to take up space on your page with a childish flame war. This will be my last post about this.

–Yeah, I think we’ve reached an impasse. Thanks for knowing when you’ve said your piece.

Carl – take a very careful look at your entrance card next time you enter the PRC. The police registration requirement is written on the entry forms. You (and I) may be ignoring it, but it is there in black & white. I am not sure how strict they are on enforcement – maybe it depends whether you are classed as “friendly” laowai (me! with cute panda baby in tow) or “evil” Japanese devil.

“Foreigners with mental or epidemic diseases, including tuberculosis and leprosy, will also not be issued visas to visit China”

I think this is troubling if actually does mean that. I can understand not letting someone with an epidemic disease in, but mental? So someone who suffers from a mild depression or anxiety problem or something harmless like that can’t get a visa because of it? That’s way too broad IMO and it’s a form of discrimination

“Have you ever been to Tibet and spoken with Tibetans without the aide of a translator?”

No, but I met people who did. Moreover they were people who studied the issue in an academic setting and the views of those they interviewed were much different from the ones you “interviewed”.

“Did your whole, big, long MONTH in Kunming really enlighten you so much about China?”

No, but it did reveal that many of the incidents associated with Japan on this site happen in China, which was my original point. Being refused service on the basis of my ethnicity and having to report my presence to police stand as two examples – there are more. If you want to dismiss this as ‘ignorance’ then you have to admit that ‘ignorance’ is a reasonable excuse in Japan too, something that I, and certainly many that post here, are loathe to concede.

I also do not want to get into a pissing contest over who has spent the longest in a given country. I could almost certainly nix your statements about Japan on this basis, but I prefer to look at the evidence. It’s fairly obvious to any casual observer that there are BIG questions over official treatment of its ethnic and religious minorities. And we know that the PRC has heavy restrictions on freedom of speech. As for your ‘free Internet’ in China, ever heard of the ‘Pledge of Self regulation and professional ethics’ that all foreign internet operators must sign before they engage in business in China? I think article 9 is fairly interesting:

I have no doubt that China’s record on human rights is improving, but I am not so ignorant myself to conclude that being treated well because you are a minority that the PRC wants to attract or impress equals tolerance for minorities in China. The same sort of special treatment for westerners went on in the 1980s in Japan. Even then though, comparison between the two cases is somewhat ridiculous.

But you are right in one respect. Neither of us can convince the other, so that will be my last word too.

I wonder what any of those places would do if those seccessionists groups actually tried to make good on their claims. If I recall correctly, Canada was going to immediately issue a ban on importation of goods from Quebec were that referendum to pass. They were also not very tolerant of the Liberation Front of Quebec.

Similarly, Britain cuts political deals with Sinn Fein, but takes a much more…shall we say…hands-on approach to dealing with the IRA.

Any government can pay lip-service to watered-down political parties that mouth platitudes about independence. Actually trying to acheive it is something else altogether, though. I should have been more clear about that in my comment, so allow me to re-phrase: what country would allow, with no consequences or interventions whatsoever, a group of people actually trying to unilaterally achieve, not just talking about or adopting as their party’s platform, “independence” within the borders of a particular country?

–I understand you want to feel vindicated in your point, but in the end, can you relate this back to the original topic at hand? This tangent is falling pretty far from the tree…

I thought that was your last bite of the apple, Carl. Oh well, as you are still engaging in the ‘childish flame war’, I suppose I’ll jump in for now too.

Might I remind you that the United Kingdom cut a deal for the independence of Ireland in 1922 after a sustained period of civil unrest. The political problem there was not so much that the core state (the U.K.) was not willing to cede land, it was that the periphery (Ireland) didn’t think that they had ceded enough. In any case, it stands as an example of a state recognizing a festering problem and negotiating a new state into existence in an attempt to solve it.

But I suppose you want states that split away peacefully, right? You want the bar set so high that nobody can provide an answer. Well, Norway succeeded from Sweden in 1905 without so much as a whimper from the latter. The Soviet Union – which was a single nation state – split peacefully after the fall of communism. Czechoslovakia had its velvet divorce, and recently, Montenegro recently gained independence. Belgium looks like it might be headed the same way, and although people may be pissed off about Kosovo, I see no tanks rolling up the road there yet. In all of these cases you had ethnic minorities that considered themselves ‘different’ from those of the core state splitting off and, except for the example of Ireland above, they did so peacefully. And all of this without mentioning the Statue of Westminster and decolonization!

(While I’m here, I might as well add that your comparison between the LA Riots and Tibet is irrelevant for obvious reasons. If you can’t figure out what these are for yourself, I’ll be happy to engage you on this later.)

So, now that I have answered your frivolous challenge, are you going to answer mine? I can send you a Tibetan flag if you can’t find one there. I’m sure you can find your own loudhailer.

I could probably find some more examples too, but as Debito has rightly pointed out, this is somewhat tangential to the argument about whether or not the ‘China’ treats its minorities well and whether the PRC tolerates opinion about its minorities that is not politically convenient.

–I think we’ve reached the end of this particular thread. One more reply from Carl if he wants (and if he can tie it back to the original point in this thread, as Big B has tried to do), then that’s it, okay?

What Carl said about Canada is nonsense. The Canadian government spent millions promoting unity and trying to make the population of Quebec feel welcome. Had they outlined a punitive response, they would only have inflamed Quebecois and ensured that the vote went for seperation.

He also talks about `Watered down` political parties – Quebec`s seperation party `the Bloc Quebecois` was the official opposition in the FEDERAL government.

“Similarly, Britain cuts political deals with Sinn Fein, but takes a much more…shall we say…hands-on approach to dealing with the IRA.”

Sinn Fein is a political party – the IRA is, depending on your point-of-view, either an army of liberation or a terrorist organistion. What is so surprising about the UK’s ‘hands-on’ approach to the IRA?

No thanks, Debito-san. We can all move on. Claim it as a victory if you want, Big B. I’m not going to be lectured on Chinese reality (nor Tibetan reality) by someone who was only here for a month. As I said before: I feel a much lower level of xenophobia in China than in Japan, having been to both places for longer than two years. Someone saying “I don’t know how to cut foreign hair” is quite a bit different than “no foreigners (even Japanese citizens) allowed AT ALL.” You might wish it wasn’t, but it is.

Please think again, what is wrong with the Chinese phamplet? It’s a rule of the game so that public order & safety can be maintained. Yea, so what if you’re not a leper or a drunkard or an illegal worker? They gotta filter the bad out. I mean, imagine if they do not let us know about the rules! That would be disastrous! I would not carry my ID and it would take them a longer time to do a background check on me!
Geez, can’t people cooperate with the authorities for crying outloud.
I’ve lived in China for a year and I know for a fact that they do not discriminate foreigners.