Then again, maybe by the end of the year we'll be saying... Merc should have backed Bottas? You never know...

Nothing is impossible and Bottas may win all the races from here... In 2007 after the 3rd GP(bahrain) the championship was like this(using today's point system):

Alonso 53 ptsHamilton 51 ptsRaikkonen 50 ptsMassa 43 pts

Hamilton took the lead of the championship after the 6th race (Canada) and lost it only after the catastrophic last 2 races(China and Brazil).

There was no need to back a driver that year because there was NO #1 and #2 status in Ferrari or McLaren. And even if a decision was to be made, it could not have been Alonso because Hamilton was in front of him(in the championship) for most of the season. I wished racing was always like this with equal status..

Ferrari needs someone who would occasionally slot between Vettel and Hamilton. Kimi does not do the job. He should be very very happy if he sees the end of the year at all.

Who would come to his place? Perhaps Sainz, Wherlein, Grosjean, Ricciardo or Perez.

I wonder how long will Ferrari have the patience to deal with Kimi's pace? When Red Bull get upto speed, he may fall behind them in the race as well & Ferrari could again finish in 3rd in the WCC, despite Vettel winning races here & there.

Personally, I hope they take Perez as he's grown a lot as a driver & was a Ferrari Academy driver as well.

I wonder if Red Bull will let Sainz or Ricciardo join Ferrari in 2018. They wouldn't like 1 of their (ex)drivers to drive for a rival team & probably beat them even.

Mika Salo had a chat with Jock Clear who said Kimi's preference is a car that is very sensitive to the initial turn-in. If it isn't, Kimi thinks it's understeering and just cannot drive it. At the end of last year it was to his liking and he beat Vettel regurarly. Source mtv.fi

Not any excuse, I know, but perhaps gives a better idea about his struggles.

Alot of us would but Vettel would probably rather leave F1 all together rather than have Alonso or Hamilton as teammate. He would probably say no to a round 2 with Ricciardo as well, and would probably never want to team up with Max either. My guess is he have some say or veto in his contact too.

I wonder if Red Bull will let Sainz or Ricciardo join Ferrari in 2018. They wouldn't like 1 of their (ex)drivers to drive for a rival team & probably beat them even.

Erh, Vettel?

Also, I'm kind of hoping Ferrari take a chance on one of their juniors for once. Put Leclerc in there, he'll be ready.

I don't see Leclerc being ready to go straight into the the Ferrari team I think they will let him learn in a lower team.

Yeah, well, I'm done with teams sticking their drivers in subpar teams to "learn". Had Ferrari put Bianchi in the Ferrari he would've done a good job and maybe he would have ended up better than he did. Back in the days, all through to the eighties and even nineties (and a few in the 00's), lots of drivers debuted at top teams and did good jobs. I see no reason why we can't have this again.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

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Alot of us would but Vettel would probably rather leave F1 all together rather than have Alonso or Hamilton as teammate. He would probably say no to a round 2 with Ricciardo as well, and would probably never want to team up with Max either. My guess is he have some say or veto in his contact too.

The thing is, there is no indication whatsoever to think this way. Vettel would rather leave F1? Based on what, your gut feelings?

In reality, Vettel took being beaten by Ricciardo a lot better than most expected. There's nothing suggesting he would actively oppose any driver coming to the team.

The funny thing is that there is a certain top driver just a few weeks ago who rejected the idea of Alonso coming to join "his team" - and it was not Vettel

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

I wonder if Red Bull will let Sainz or Ricciardo join Ferrari in 2018. They wouldn't like 1 of their (ex)drivers to drive for a rival team & probably beat them even.

Erh, Vettel?

Also, I'm kind of hoping Ferrari take a chance on one of their juniors for once. Put Leclerc in there, he'll be ready.

I don't see Leclerc being ready to go straight into the the Ferrari team I think they will let him learn in a lower team.

Yeah, well, I'm done with teams sticking their drivers in subpar teams to "learn". Had Ferrari put Bianchi in the Ferrari he would've done a good job and maybe he would have ended up better than he did. Back in the days, all through to the eighties and even nineties (and a few in the 00's), lots of drivers debuted at top teams and did good jobs. I see no reason why we can't have this again.

I've been saying this for years. If the drivers are good enough, they shouldn't need treating with kid gloves. This is the premier single seater open wheeled series in the world. Every driver entering it must be considered to be the best of the best, else why bother?

Alot of us would but Vettel would probably rather leave F1 all together rather than have Alonso or Hamilton as teammate. He would probably say no to a round 2 with Ricciardo as well, and would probably never want to team up with Max either. My guess is he have some say or veto in his contact too.

The thing is, there is no indication whatsoever to think this way. Vettel would rather leave F1? Based on what, your gut feelings?

In reality, Vettel took being beaten by Ricciardo a lot better than most expected. There's nothing suggesting he would actively oppose any driver coming to the team.

The funny thing is that there is a certain top driver just a few weeks ago who rejected the idea of Alonso coming to join "his team" - and it was not Vettel

Yes, leaving the team with one year left on the contract is taking it really well.

Alot of us would but Vettel would probably rather leave F1 all together rather than have Alonso or Hamilton as teammate. He would probably say no to a round 2 with Ricciardo as well, and would probably never want to team up with Max either. My guess is he have some say or veto in his contact too.

The thing is, there is no indication whatsoever to think this way. Vettel would rather leave F1? Based on what, your gut feelings?

In reality, Vettel took being beaten by Ricciardo a lot better than most expected. There's nothing suggesting he would actively oppose any driver coming to the team.

The funny thing is that there is a certain top driver just a few weeks ago who rejected the idea of Alonso coming to join "his team" - and it was not Vettel

Yes, leaving the team with one year left on the contract is taking it really well.

Lots of drivers have not served the full contract time when opportunities came up. Try reading some informed opinions about his behavior within the team that year, they might surprise you.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

I wonder if Red Bull will let Sainz or Ricciardo join Ferrari in 2018. They wouldn't like 1 of their (ex)drivers to drive for a rival team & probably beat them even.

Erh, Vettel?

Also, I'm kind of hoping Ferrari take a chance on one of their juniors for once. Put Leclerc in there, he'll be ready.

I don't see Leclerc being ready to go straight into the the Ferrari team I think they will let him learn in a lower team.

Yeah, well, I'm done with teams sticking their drivers in subpar teams to "learn". Had Ferrari put Bianchi in the Ferrari he would've done a good job and maybe he would have ended up better than he did. Back in the days, all through to the eighties and even nineties (and a few in the 00's), lots of drivers debuted at top teams and did good jobs. I see no reason why we can't have this again.

It's not just a case of what Ferrari tend to do, I personally don't think he would be ready either, Giovinazzi showed perhaps he wouldn't be ready either after his crash fest in China.

Alot of us would but Vettel would probably rather leave F1 all together rather than have Alonso or Hamilton as teammate. He would probably say no to a round 2 with Ricciardo as well, and would probably never want to team up with Max either. My guess is he have some say or veto in his contact too.

The thing is, there is no indication whatsoever to think this way. Vettel would rather leave F1? Based on what, your gut feelings?

In reality, Vettel took being beaten by Ricciardo a lot better than most expected. There's nothing suggesting he would actively oppose any driver coming to the team.

The funny thing is that there is a certain top driver just a few weeks ago who rejected the idea of Alonso coming to join "his team" - and it was not Vettel

Well I don't think he would have seen Ricciardo as a threat when he joined Red Bull, but yes he took the beating quite well.

Vettel is in a strong position at Ferrari and I've no doubt he will campaign for his friend Kimi to be retained, he is in a strong enough position to say no to Alonso, it's not like it would be in his best interests.

Alot of us would but Vettel would probably rather leave F1 all together rather than have Alonso or Hamilton as teammate. He would probably say no to a round 2 with Ricciardo as well, and would probably never want to team up with Max either. My guess is he have some say or veto in his contact too.

The thing is, there is no indication whatsoever to think this way. Vettel would rather leave F1? Based on what, your gut feelings?

In reality, Vettel took being beaten by Ricciardo a lot better than most expected. There's nothing suggesting he would actively oppose any driver coming to the team.

The funny thing is that there is a certain top driver just a few weeks ago who rejected the idea of Alonso coming to join "his team" - and it was not Vettel

Yes, leaving the team with one year left on the contract is taking it really well.

Lots of drivers have not served the full contract time when opportunities came up. Try reading some informed opinions about his behavior within the team that year, they might surprise you.

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

The amusing part is his choice of team, as Lewis left McLaren for exactly the same reason.

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

The amusing part is his choice of team, as Lewis left McLaren for exactly the same reason.

I just see those as words from Alonso to cover up a big mistake, he would have been far, far better off staying at Ferrari than going to McLaren.

Now I know that hindsight is a wonderful thing but even with hindsight Alonso doesn't want to change those words.

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

The amusing part is his choice of team, as Lewis left McLaren for exactly the same reason.

I just see those as words from Alonso to cover up a big mistake, he would have been far, far better off staying at Ferrari than going to McLaren.

Now I know that hindsight is a wonderful thing but even with hindsight Alonso doesn't want to change those words.

You expect him to say "I wish I'd stayed at Ferrari?" I'm sure that would go down well at McLaren

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

I get what you're saying, but there's different ways of saying things. In my view, he wasn't all that respectful towards Ferrari in 2015 and 2016. And now that they've come good, he congratulates them with their car? Well, that's a convenient time to pick up the diplomacy, right?

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

Well Alonso brings 6 tenths, he would surely be leading the championship with 3 wins to his name and battle until the end of the season.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Alot of us would but Vettel would probably rather leave F1 all together rather than have Alonso or Hamilton as teammate. He would probably say no to a round 2 with Ricciardo as well, and would probably never want to team up with Max either. My guess is he have some say or veto in his contact too.

The thing is, there is no indication whatsoever to think this way. Vettel would rather leave F1? Based on what, your gut feelings?

In reality, Vettel took being beaten by Ricciardo a lot better than most expected. There's nothing suggesting he would actively oppose any driver coming to the team.

The funny thing is that there is a certain top driver just a few weeks ago who rejected the idea of Alonso coming to join "his team" - and it was not Vettel

Yes, leaving the team with one year left on the contract is taking it really well.

Lots of drivers have not served the full contract time when opportunities came up. Try reading some informed opinions about his behavior within the team that year, they might surprise you.

Well, mate, if you would point me out where something alludes to him acting up within the team, to him acting up towards a teammate, or to him being afraid to be paired up with any other teammate or Ricciardo again, that would be great.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

The amusing part is his choice of team, as Lewis left McLaren for exactly the same reason.

I just see those as words from Alonso to cover up a big mistake, he would have been far, far better off staying at Ferrari than going to McLaren.

Now I know that hindsight is a wonderful thing but even with hindsight Alonso doesn't want to change those words.

You expect him to say "I wish I'd stayed at Ferrari?" I'm sure that would go down well at McLaren

To me it looks like he's almost done with McLaren Honda after the barrage of attacks last time out and rumours of talks with Renault, you will never see Alonso say he made the wrong decision.

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

Well Alonso brings 6 tenths, he would surely be leading the championship with 3 wins to his name and battle until the end of the season.

You know it makes me wonder about the 2015 season and what Vettel was able to achieve whether Alonso ever thinks what he might have done?

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

I get what you're saying, but there's different ways of saying things. In my view, he wasn't all that respectful towards Ferrari in 2015 and 2016. And now that they've come good, he congratulates them with their car? Well, that's a convenient time to pick up the diplomacy, right?

He did praise other aspects too during that period but they weren't juicy enough to get much attention. About how Ferrari were the most special team in F1 and winning for them is different to winning elsewhere. He praised Binotto, backed him to succeed and wished him well last year when Allison left.

It was just in response to the questions about his departure and if he regretted it that he spoke in those terms about nothing changed, no regrets etc..

But he obviously had some crow to eat this year because he said McLaren would pass Mercedes before they would and he did. And if they win the title(s) he'll be eating some more I'm sure.

I do get the "Oh now he wants Ferrari..." type of thinking though but I just think those examples were in response to basically getting his nose rubbed in Ferrari's turnaround in 2015 so he bit back when it didn't amount to much in 2016.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Well, mate, if you would point me out where something alludes to him acting up within the team, to him acting up towards a teammate, or to him being afraid to be paired up with any other teammate or Ricciardo again, that would be great.

If the roles were different between Ricciardo and Vettel in 2014, say Vettel won the 3 races and outqualified Ricciardo convincingly (how is Vettel still considered one of the best qualifiers btw? Even Kimi beat him...). Do you think he would have left then?Surely he has always been drawn to Ferrari, but would he really leave a winning team for a longterm non-winning one had he still been the topdriver at RB?Now, we will never know. But I don't think so. I can't remember the exact words but Vettel took Ricciardos passing of him at Monza more or less as humiliation, probably he did the whole season too.

If the roles were different between Ricciardo and Vettel in 2014, say Vettel won the 3 races and outqualified Ricciardo convincingly (how is Vettel still considered one of the best qualifiers btw? Even Kimi beat him...). Do you think he would have left then?

Almost certainly. It was pretty clear that the RBR wasn't going to win anything meaningful anytime soon. Having won four WDC titles, what use was there in staying? Do you really think that after all that, his purpose in F1 had suddenly become "beating Daniel Ricciardo"? Of course not.

Meanwhile a seat at Vettel's dream team became available for the first time in 5 years.

As for the bit between parentheses: his performances can vary depending on his level of comfort in the car, I think most of his fans would agree to that. Whereas e.g. Alonso always seems to be near to getting the most out of the car. But when feeling comfortable, I do think he's a match for anyone, be it in qualifying or race.

Quote:

I can't remember the exact words but Vettel took Ricciardos passing of him at Monza more or less as humiliation, probably he did the whole season too.

He probably did - who wouldn't? But you have to take into account that most of those guys, and certainly the top drivers, believe they are the best and they can take on anyone. I have no doubt that Vettel believes he is now feeling a lot better than in 2014 and would be able to win against Ricciardo. Whether that would actually be the case, we don't know, but I'm pretty sure he believes it.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

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I do get the "Oh now he wants Ferrari..." type of thinking though but I just think those examples were in response to basically getting his nose rubbed in Ferrari's turnaround in 2015 so he bit back when it didn't amount to much in 2016.

Fair enough (as is the rest of your post). Maybe I am going a bit harsh on him. It's still my honest feeling though, I don't wish to see him back at Ferrari. I understand he's frustrated but I don't like the attitude he's getting (to the point of snapping at his race engineers, insulting his team, ...).

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

I do get the "Oh now he wants Ferrari..." type of thinking though but I just think those examples were in response to basically getting his nose rubbed in Ferrari's turnaround in 2015 so he bit back when it didn't amount to much in 2016.

Fair enough (as is the rest of your post). Maybe I am going a bit harsh on him. It's still my honest feeling though, I don't wish to see him back at Ferrari. I understand he's frustrated but I don't like the attitude he's getting (to the point of snapping at his race engineers, insulting his team, ...).

I agree. Brilliant driver but thanks to his attitude I feel it's karma at play here...

Fair enough (as is the rest of your post). Maybe I am going a bit harsh on him. It's still my honest feeling though, I don't wish to see him back at Ferrari. I understand he's frustrated but I don't like the attitude he's getting (to the point of snapping at his race engineers, insulting his team, ...).

I agree. Brilliant driver but thanks to his attitude I feel it's karma at play here...

I think having signed away quite possibly the last years of his career on their project - and being let down so completely and miserably - he's earned the right to voice some disapproval. Everyone wants the drivers to show some personality... until they actually do, and then they inevitably get roasted for it.

Alonso is putting pressure on the team to improve by not trying to hide their faults. Vettel did the same thing in 2014 when the Renault engine was terrible, and afterwards the entire Red Bull team did the same with Renault in 2015. No, Alonso isn't being very diplomatic about the engine - but at the end of the day, if Honda takes ten years to be competitive, it won't cost the engineers or team owners anything but time. It will cost Alonso the possibility of doing anything meaningful with what's left of his career. It's a wonder he's not more frustrated.

I think having signed away quite possibly the last years of his career on their project - and being let down so completely and miserably - he's earned the right to voice some disapproval. Everyone wants the drivers to show some personality... until they actually do, and then they inevitably get roasted for it.

Well, this is a bit of a duality. I want drivers to speak their mind, which more allows me/us to see who they actually are.

Quote:

Alonso is putting pressure on the team to improve by not trying to hide their faults. Vettel did the same thing in 2014 when the Renault engine was terrible, and afterwards the entire Red Bull team did the same with Renault in 2015. No, Alonso isn't being very diplomatic about the engine - but at the end of the day, if Honda takes ten years to be competitive, it won't cost the engineers or team owners anything but time. It will cost Alonso the possibility of doing anything meaningful with what's left of his career. It's a wonder he's not more frustrated.

There's the human factor too, though. When he snaps at his race engineer "do whatever you want" - he's talking to a human being, a team member, who is probably also very frustrated that the car/engine isn't there, and that the results aren't coming, who is equally doing his best to make the best out of a dire situation.

Being critical and being downright insulting are two very different things. Now I might be wrong here but I don't think I've ever seen Vettel insulting neither his team, nor technical partners of the team (i.e. Renault in this case).

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

If the roles were different between Ricciardo and Vettel in 2014, say Vettel won the 3 races and outqualified Ricciardo convincingly (how is Vettel still considered one of the best qualifiers btw? Even Kimi beat him...). Do you think he would have left then?

Almost certainly. It was pretty clear that the RBR wasn't going to win anything meaningful anytime soon. Having won four WDC titles, what use was there in staying? Do you really think that after all that, his purpose in F1 had suddenly become "beating Daniel Ricciardo"? Of course not.

Almost certainly by your own view, I completely disagree. A driver tends to move on to a known better car or if he's unhappy. It wasn't Ferrari winning those 3 races it was RBR but it was the wrong driver. If Vettel had won those 3 races and given a Merc a run for their money a few times in a season he would have been happy. There was no promise that Ferrari would be back to winning ways and let's face it you can tell by his reaction that he's surprised that they can this season. You look at every front runner driver who left a team, they either leave for a better car or they leave because something isn't right on the "happiness factor". Alonso leaving Ferrari, Lewis leaving Mclaren, Kimi leaving and returning.

The majority of top drivers in the last 15 years all left for the same reasons, they either left for a better package or they fell out in some way. If Seb had won those races he would have been number 1 at RBR, happier for getting great results - instead he didn't and wasn't happy. A persons attitude towards everything changes and he wasn't happy at being beaten by Ric. Who would? You've won a few titles, also dominated your team mate for a few years and a young rookie comes along (sounds familiar?) and beats you.

If the roles were different between Ricciardo and Vettel in 2014, say Vettel won the 3 races and outqualified Ricciardo convincingly (how is Vettel still considered one of the best qualifiers btw? Even Kimi beat him...). Do you think he would have left then?

Almost certainly. It was pretty clear that the RBR wasn't going to win anything meaningful anytime soon. Having won four WDC titles, what use was there in staying? Do you really think that after all that, his purpose in F1 had suddenly become "beating Daniel Ricciardo"? Of course not.

Almost certainly by your own view, I completely disagree. A driver tends to move on to a known better car or if he's unhappy. It wasn't Ferrari winning those 3 races it was RBR but it was the wrong driver. If Vettel had won those 3 races and given a Merc a run for their money a few times in a season he would have been happy. There was no promise that Ferrari would be back to winning ways and let's face it you can tell by his reaction that he's surprised that they can this season. You look at every front runner driver who left a team, they either leave for a better car or they leave because something isn't right on the "happiness factor". Alonso leaving Ferrari, Lewis leaving Mclaren, Kimi leaving and returning.

The majority of top drivers in the last 15 years all left for the same reasons, they either left for a better package or they fell out in some way. If Seb had won those races he would have been number 1 at RBR, happier for getting great results - instead he didn't and wasn't happy. A persons attitude towards everything changes and he wasn't happy at being beaten by Ric. Who would? You've won a few titles, also dominated your team mate for a few years and a young rookie comes along (sounds familiar?) and beats you.

...or if a driver thinks future prospects elsewhere are better. There is a body of opinion that being in a works team gives a much greater chance of success than being a customer. Vettel may well have been thinking ahead. And don't underestimate the allure of joining Ferrari and helping bring it back to glory. That name still holds a special fascination for many a driver.

Additionally, Horner said that Vettel had lost some motivation after winning four titles. A desire to start afresh, taking the above into account, shouldn't be discounted, either.

If Vettel had won those 3 races and given a Merc a run for their money a few times in a season he would have been happy.

Hah. You really think a driver that has won four WDC's on the trot to be happy with "giving another car a run for their money a few times in a season"? Right

And even if that - they never gave Mercedes a run for their money! In Canada the Mercs were broken and hurting, in Hungary Hamilton had to start from the back and Rosberg was compromised due to SC timing, and I don't think I have to remind anyone what happened in Spa.

The situation at RBR was dire and not looking up anytime soon. Fast forward three years, they're still not close to contending for titles.

Quote:

There was no promise that Ferrari would be back to winning ways

In F1 nothing is certain. Using that to dismiss a change of teams is useless, as Red Bull coming good would probably be as likely as Ferrari coming good. Unless you somehow think Ferrari is in a perennial losing position which will never subside.

Quote:

The majority of top drivers in the last 15 years all left for the same reasons, they either left for a better package or they fell out in some way. If Seb had won those races he would have been number 1 at RBR, happier for getting great results - instead he didn't and wasn't happy. A persons attitude towards everything changes and he wasn't happy at being beaten by Ric. Who would? You've won a few titles, also dominated your team mate for a few years and a young rookie comes along (sounds familiar?) and beats you.

Nobody said he was happy because he was being beaten. He can both have been unhappy for being beaten, AND unhappy because he wasn't seeing anything happen at RBR anytime soon. See my first sentence of this reply - do you honestly think a reigning 4x WDC would be happy to fight for whatever leftovers of Mercedes there were? With a PU in the car that was a proper POS and didn't look to become good anytime soon?

Even if he had won those few races because Mercedes or its drivers completely dropped the ball - even if he had beaten Ricciardo, in the end he would still have been in a car that wasn't going to be great for the next few years. So why not take the chance on his dream team where a seat became available and possibly would be locked again for years to come after that since free seats at Ferrari don't tend to come around too often?

Are you really going to tell me that my opinion isn't plausible?

In my view the idea that he would have been happy just for beating Ricciardo, while having a car with a POS engine that likely wasn't going to be great for a few years to come, THAT is what's implausible here.

If you are a rookie in F1, your prime target is to learn and beat your teammate, and win races.If you have won races, your prime target is to win more and win the WDC.If you have won one or more WDC's, your prime target is to win more WDC's. Sure you still want to beat your teammate, but staying at a team that won't allow you to win WDC's just because you want to beat a teammate? Yeah, no.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

I do get the "Oh now he wants Ferrari..." type of thinking though but I just think those examples were in response to basically getting his nose rubbed in Ferrari's turnaround in 2015 so he bit back when it didn't amount to much in 2016.

Fair enough (as is the rest of your post). Maybe I am going a bit harsh on him. It's still my honest feeling though, I don't wish to see him back at Ferrari. I understand he's frustrated but I don't like the attitude he's getting (to the point of snapping at his race engineers, insulting his team, ...).

I don't think you're alone in that, I know some Ferrari fans who loved Alonso but have no desire to see him back at this point, it's just the way things go.

I think if you've got a top diver performing well then there's no real appetite to want him back in general. If Seb left for whatever reason or wasn't performing I think that would probably change though. (Maybe not you specifically but generally speaking).

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Oh and just for the record: I hope Ferrari don't take Alonso back. Not because he would be paired up with Vettel, but because over the past seasons he has repeatedly put down Ferrari as "always the same", "not changed" and repeatedly stated how happy he was to have made "the right choice".

Well, let him eat those words now.

Bit harsh. You make it sound like he's been walking around the paddock just randomly putting down Ferrari. He's had his move to McLaren thrown in his face by the press, especially the Italian press including that female reporter that got in trouble for it, throughout that period and answered those baiting questions rather tamely and more importantly accurately at the time.

I'm pretty sure he congratulated them for this years car though. And as much as he doesn't mind slating his own team it would have been a bit extreme to respond to those "Do you regret leaving Ferrari now.." barbs with a big "Absolutely, Macca suck and Ferrari are the best, I'm a prat and I regret everything".

He can't win in that situation. I could understand Ferrari not wanting him back though fwiw, but more because he left his contract early because he lost faith in them which would rightly annoy some Ferrari personnel I would think.

Given Vettel got nowhere near winning either the 2015 or 2016 championship, Alonso hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

Well Alonso brings 6 tenths, he would surely be leading the championship with 3 wins to his name and battle until the end of the season.

You know it makes me wonder about the 2015 season and what Vettel was able to achieve whether Alonso ever thinks what he might have done?

I doubt it. In 2015 Vettel essentially repeated Alonso's 2011 and 2013 seasons. Won a couple of races but came nowhere near winning the title due to the title winner's dominance. Vettel's 2015 season proves that leaving Ferrari was the correct one at the time.

This season was supposed to be the payoff for all the sh*t Alonso put up with in 2015 and 2016. New aero rules that McLaren essentially came up with and they were supposed to be reaping the benefit of Honda being back in F1 by now.

I do get the "Oh now he wants Ferrari..." type of thinking though but I just think those examples were in response to basically getting his nose rubbed in Ferrari's turnaround in 2015 so he bit back when it didn't amount to much in 2016.

Fair enough (as is the rest of your post). Maybe I am going a bit harsh on him. It's still my honest feeling though, I don't wish to see him back at Ferrari. I understand he's frustrated but I don't like the attitude he's getting (to the point of snapping at his race engineers, insulting his team, ...).

I agree. Brilliant driver but thanks to his attitude I feel it's karma at play here...

I also believe in karma, with Alonso it seems to have gone a bit into overdrive though.