Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by NineteenTwenty8

Im personally sick of the arrogance of many out-of-towners that feel like they are more 'deserving' of the resort and how those pesky APers should get out of the way and stop crowding 'their' parks. Im an APer and I spend hundreds of dollars of my hard earned money on a pass, I also spend ALOT throughout the course of the year on food/merch etc. , a tourist has no more importance than any APer. We ALL spend money, people need to stop with that mindset.

Who's got you upset?

I actually like Disneyland for that particular reason. When I visit, the park is actually filled with people who care about the place.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by NineteenTwenty8

Im personally sick of the arrogance of many out-of-towners that feel like they are more 'deserving' of the resort and how those pesky APers should get out of the way and stop crowding 'their' parks. Im an APer and I spend hundreds of dollars of my hard earned money on a pass, I also spend ALOT throughout the course of the year on food/merch etc. , a tourist has no more importance than any APer. We ALL spend money, people need to stop with that mindset.

You need to understand that the average tourist only goes once every 2 years, they want to get on everything they can, and take it all in, in a timely manner. If APers are boosting the wait times by 20 minutes, you can't blame them for being mad; I'd be mad too. Most APers know when and when not to go, and I do think it's a little selfish when they choose to go on a day when the parks are nearing capacity.

Fear of the unknown.

They are afraid of new ideas.

They are loaded with prejudices, not based upon any reality, but based onÖ if something is new, I reject it immediately because itís frightening to me. What they do instead is just stay with the familiar.You know, to me, the most beautiful things in all the universe, are the most mysterious.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by Chesire

You need to understand that the average tourist only goes once every 2 years, they want to get on everything they can, and take it all in, in a timely manner. If APers are boosting the wait times by 20 minutes, you can't blame them for being mad; I'd be mad too. Most APers know when and when not to go, and I do think it's a little selfish when they choose to go on a day when the parks are nearing capacity.

Can't blame them for being mad?
How would anyone know who was an AP holder while waiting in line for say, Space Mountain?

As an AP holder I would find that upsetting if I heard someone whine about it in line. We go when we can, just like any visitor. It's ignorant to blame AP holders for long lines.

If anything, I am seeing that Disney needs to pick up the pace and staff properly for all the hordes of guests (APers and non-APers alike). They shouldn't be charging for a premium themepark, and then allow themself to be slammed to the point that the park feels way over-crowded. Jack up the price and then cut staffing? No way. They better be careful.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Can't blame them for being mad?
How would anyone know who was an AP holder while waiting in line for say, Space Mountain?

As an AP holder I would find that upsetting if I heard someone whine about it in line. We go when we can, just like any visitor. It's ignorant to blame AP holders for long lines.

They may not know who they are, but they know the effect they have.

Yes, that's the point, you can go when you can, anytime you can, the rest of us can only go every so often, when we can.

I never blamed APers for long lines, but APers coming in flocks on peak days just adds fuel to the fire.

Fear of the unknown.

They are afraid of new ideas.

They are loaded with prejudices, not based upon any reality, but based onÖ if something is new, I reject it immediately because itís frightening to me. What they do instead is just stay with the familiar.You know, to me, the most beautiful things in all the universe, are the most mysterious.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Annual Passes are not going anywhere. If there were any truth to this, don't you think these boards would be on fire about it? The original poster just said that they "heard a rumor" that they were going away, and didn't even cite the source of this so called rumor. They're may be modifications made to the program, as they've done before, but if they were going away, you'd hear about it on other threads, and on other sites. Something that big wouldn't be confined to this one thread on this one board.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

This is such a complex discussion.

It cannot be said that AP holders are ruining the park. They go as much as they can afford to given the costs of the pass, and a pass allows them to go quite a bit. However, that is no reason to be upset with them.

The real issue is whether the cost of an AP is adequate to cover the costs that an AP holder incurs over the amount of time they visit. I think that it is, but it will be interesting to see what the huge price increases mean for the resort moving forward. Given that they can drop in as much as they like does also definitely have an impact on Tourists who have a limited time in the resort to see the attractions they came (and paid a premium) to see.

There are two truths though. Increasing the cost of an AP, or removing the program is not an injustice. Going to Disneyland is not a right for anyone and without the AP program, nobody is shut out of the parks.. The reality is that anyone who could afford an AP instead would only be able to go less. Given that Disneyland is a business, this is not a change in mentality and considering that Disney still offers top of the line entertainment (if not the best, although that statement is debateable), the cost is still justified. This point is evident given that both parks are still seeing record breaking attendance even with the higher prices for entry.

Another thing worth discussing is the whole "Who spends more: Tourists or AP holders?" question. The argument that AP holders are better for the resort because they spend more money over all their visits is in my opinion false. In statistics, one of the simplest ways to compare two different things is to find some trait that you can easily compare and use it as a benchmark.

In this case, the easiest benchmark to use is dollars paid per hour in the park. It is easy to see through quick calculation that AP holders spend less per hour in the park than Tourists. Every hour anyone spends in the park adds to the cost of staffing attractions, maintenance, cleaning staff, etc and this number will be roughly the same no matter who the guest is.

True, AP holders have more opportunity to buy food and drink as well as souvenirs, but it is also true that the dollars spent on souvenirs, food and drink per hour will also be much higher for tourists. The truth is that tourists don't usually bring in their own food. Tourists also often come with a dollar amount that they are determined to spend on souvenirs, which is usually rather large compared to what an AP holder might spend on each visit. Furthermore, tourists have to stay in a hotel and are therefore much more likely to stay in a Disney hotel.

The bottom line is that at the heart of it, there is more money in tourists than AP holders. Sure, it takes several tourists visits over the course of the year to cover the time spent by an AP holder, but the average money made per guest will be greater if they can do that.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by DJS

You can go anytime you can, too.
or
I can only go every so often, when I can.

[...]

This is true. AP holders can go anytime they want because they paid for it. That's the thing... Anyone can go to Disneyland as much, or as little as they want as long as they pay to get in. There is no discrimination or unfairness regarding the AP system as it just rewards more frequent guests with a discount.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by NineteenTwenty8

Im personally sick of the arrogance of many out-of-towners that feel like they are more 'deserving' of the resort and how those pesky APers should get out of the way and stop crowding 'their' parks. Im an APer and I spend hundreds of dollars of my hard earned money on a pass, I also spend ALOT throughout the course of the year on food/merch etc. , a tourist has no more importance than any APer. We ALL spend money, people need to stop with that mindset.

I agree with this. When I see threads about "ugh, those APers crowded the parks" it makes me sad. We live here in Southern California. Our people keep the parks running, both in terms of supporting it during the less successful years, and providing the manpower to staff the parks. Why shouldn't we have a Southern California pass, and if we paid to get our AP, why shouldn't we enjoy it? We spend money like anyone else, and in my experience APers are the first to offer help to guests who are lost or lend a hand.

If Disney really wanted to ease crowds at the parks, they'd lower the threshold at which they close the gates.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by Chesire

Yes, that's the point, you can go when you can, anytime you can, the rest of us can only go every so often, when we can.

Do you not understand the concept of blockout dates? Only premium pass holders can go anytime. The vast majority of pass holders are restricted to days when tourists are typically absent. So how exactly are tourists effected in any signifcant way? AP holders sustain the park during the off season. Without that off season revenue, prices for single day tickets would need to be even higher.

Originally Posted by Trevor

it is also true that the dollars spent on souvenirs, food and drink per hour will also be much higher for tourists. The truth is that tourists don't usually bring in their own food. Tourists also often come with a dollar amount that they are determined to spend on souvenirs, which is usually rather large compared to what an AP holder might spend on each visit. Furthermore, tourists have to stay in a hotel and are therefore much more likely to stay in a Disney hotel.

I am curious as to what makes you an expert on the habits and spending activities of tourists. Do you have statistical research you can cite to verify your statements? I mean "per hour"? Where did you get this information from? Also, whether are not tourists stay in a Disneyland hotel more frequently than AP holders is not particularly revelent to the discussion of whether or not AP holders are overcrowding the parks and decreasing the enjoyment of tourists.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that to the 'out of towners' going to Disneyland is an EVENT, meaning it's something that they save/plan/travel to even be able to go to the parks. For some Locals (At least the locals I've seen and talked to in the parks) it's just something that you do, like instead of going to the park or a zoo on Saturday, they'll just go to Disneyland for the day. For some Disneyland has become just the local 'hang out' spot (a luxury us out of towners don't have) so for Locals when they see an 120 minute wait for RSR, they think "Well, I'm not waiting that long, I'll just ride it on Tuesday"...

An Out of Town'er thinks one of two ways "Oh well, I'm not going to be back to Disneyland for a while so I better just deal with the long wait" or "Well, I guess I'm not getting to ride that this trip"... I think that's what adds to the ill-feelings about AP'ers or towards the parks in General.

Look, I'm an Out of Town AP'er who only has gone on 3, 3-day trips this year, and I'm sorry, no one is every going to convince me that a local SoCal AP'er spends more money in the parks than I do. And what's hilarious to me is even though I bought the premium APs and I've gone to Disneyland more in one year than I have in the previous 5 years, I still don't spend as much money as when I've gone on previous yearly trips. Do I still eat out at the parks and buy merch, Of course (I buy a lot LOL) but the mind set is WAY different since becoming an AP'er. Because I know that I'm going to be visiting DLR again soon, I'm not as 'motivated' to buy as I was when I was just a 'tourist'. There's no "Urgency" (a sales term) to my DLR purchases anymore because heck, I can always get it on the next trip. But really in sales terms that's DEATH, which can not bode well for DLR's bottom line.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by NineteenTwenty8

Im personally sick of the arrogance of many out-of-towners that feel like they are more 'deserving' of the resort and how those pesky APers should get out of the way and stop crowding 'their' parks. Im an APer and I spend hundreds of dollars of my hard earned money on a pass, I also spend ALOT throughout the course of the year on food/merch etc. , a tourist has no more importance than any APer. We ALL spend money, people need to stop with that mindset.

Yes, everybody spends money, but some spend more than others.

Originally Posted by Trevor

The real issue is whether the cost of an AP is adequate to cover the costs that an AP holder incurs over the amount of time they visit. I think that it is, but it will be interesting to see what the huge price increases mean for the resort moving forward. Given that they can drop in as much as they like does also definitely have an impact on Tourists who have a limited time in the resort to see the attractions they came (and paid a premium) to see.

At this point I doubt it is whether or not costs or covered. It

Originally Posted by Trevor

This is true. AP holders can go anytime they want because they paid for it. That's the thing... Anyone can go to Disneyland as much, or as little as they want as long as they pay to get in. There is no discrimination or unfairness regarding the AP system as it just rewards more frequent guests with a discount.

Exactly, and it seems that the Disneyland Resort is hitting a point where the need to offer discounts on admission are diminishing.

Originally Posted by misfits138

Do you not understand the concept of blockout dates? Only premium pass holders can go anytime. The vast majority of pass holders are restricted to days when tourists are typically absent. So how exactly are tourists effected in any signifcant way? AP holders sustain the park during the off season. Without that off season revenue, prices for single day tickets would need to be even higher.

Tourists are increasingly coming at times when they were not in the past.

Originally Posted by misfits138

I am curious as to what makes you an expert on the habits and spending activities of tourists. Do you have statistical research you can cite to verify your statements? I mean "per hour"? Where did you get this information from? Also, whether are not tourists stay in a Disneyland hotel more frequently than AP holders is not particularly revelent to the discussion of whether or not AP holders are overcrowding the parks and decreasing the enjoyment of tourists.

Because it is an industry wide consequence of seasonal and annual passes becoming the expected norm for a theme park.

Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

Originally Posted by metchick01

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that to the 'out of towners' going to Disneyland is an EVENT, meaning it's something that they save/plan/travel to even be able to go to the parks. For some Locals (At least the locals I've seen and talked to in the parks) it's just something that you do, like instead of going to the park or a zoo on Saturday, they'll just go to Disneyland for the day. For some Disneyland has become just the local 'hang out' spot (a luxury us out of towners don't have) so for Locals when they see an 120 minute wait for RSR, they think "Well, I'm not waiting that long, I'll just ride it on Tuesday".

Well, I can't speak for all locals, but since it takes me about 3 hours each way to get to DLR (I use mass transit) it IS an event for me...

And the event vs. everyday conflict is one that happens everywhere, not just at Disneyland. If I visit your city, it's an event to visit your major tourist attractions. You might pass by them every single day and you're not impressed. If I go to Hawai'i it might be an event to go to the beach. You might surf at that same beach every day. Should I have the right to tell you to clear out of your own beach?

The fact that Disneyland is seen differently by different demographics is not a justification for excluding some from the park, getting angry or resenting their presence. It can be argued that while tourists have a positive effect on the local economy, they have a negative impact on day to day life for the locals, in terms of traffic, more flights that make noise over residential areas, more people to contend with in the stores, etc. so it does go both ways.

Why is it suddenly a competition about who pays more? If you bought your park ticket at Costco and paid less for it than that guy who bought it at the ticket booth, are you suddenly a lesser person? How about that CM who signed in a friend, or that person who won a free ticket? Not every tourist coming to the park has money to burn. Not every APer is frugal. In the long run, if you look at the lifetime expenditure for an APer vs. a casual visitor...all those years of pass purchases and merch do add up. Disney obviously believes those discounted tickets and APs are worth it to get bodies into the park.

Also, in terms of overcrowding: the APs are largely blocked out on holidays and during the summer, and the parks are still cheek to jowl then. Does anyone really think that if Disney had everyone buying tickets instead of passes, they wouldn't pack the parks, just the same? They want your money, and once you've forked over your cash or signed that credit card slip and you're through the gate... they don't particularly care if you have to wait 5 minutes or 500 minutes to get on a ride.