"Dhimmi, Noah, Plato - trying to get back to an unemotional discussion, I am seriously curious if you can accept this frame work. If yes - does it really seem so absurd, to approach Islam being as a bit more than just one integrated, comprehensive, fundamentalist movement?"

Michel, no one is interested in your evasive nonsense. First of all, that first article you gave is riddled with errors, so I won't even waste time commenting on it. Secondly, yes...it is indeed absurd to complicate, obfuscate, and over-analyze the situation, as you are clearly doing. Again, this is a game to you, but not to us. To us it is deadly serious.

Islam is violent at its core. Period. End of story. Go read the Koran and the history of Islam. It is a history of violence and intolerance. Then go look at the world today. Islam is at war with everyone else. That's all you need to know.

"Which may yet again not depict a representatrive view, but almost precisely recount the experiences I personally had and maybe, just maybe adds a bit of credibility to my personal account, as their findings are amazingly congruent to mine."

As I have repeatedly spelled out to you in excruciating detail, that's all irrelevant. Show me 120,000 reform minded Muslims working to change their religion, and I'll discuss it with you. Until then, you have no basis to debate with.

"In all fairness to all links provided in support of differing viewpoints, and not rying to dismiss any testimony to the contrary or atrocities committed by Islamic Terrorism, this piece sheds a bit of light on the positive and lends credibility to people like us who still hope."

I will once again repeat myself. People like you who put their hope in a microscopic aberration that accounts for less than 1/10,000th of 1% of all Muslims are delusional if not outright insane.

"I know that it is not sexy, but quite actually rather boring to assume, that boiling Islam down to its people, one can not come to any other conclusion than realizing another kind of Paradox. The topic of Islam seems to be complex in its various expressions and explanations, while at the same time the majority of Muslims may well be as boringly normal as we are."

Michel, wake up and open your eyes. There is no "paradox". Islam is evil. Period. I have repeatedly challenged you to show me one single Islamic country that is not a stinking hell-hole rife with violence, intolerance, rape, murder, suppression of freedoms, and other evils. You have failed to present a single such place. I have challenged you to show me anywhere that Islam has emigrated to that has been changed for the better and where the Muslims have not gone to war in one form or another with the native populace of the host country. In that you have also failed.

You have been shown polls that prove the fact that the majority of Muslims endorse terrorism. You have been given proof of everything that people like me, Susan, Dhimmi No More, Jaladhi, Gellin & Infidellin, etc have claimed. And still you wish to live in denial of reality.

"I invite us all once again, to move the debate on, and away from discussing us and our opinions, but more so our arguments and references we submit as supporting evidence for them."

What,... so today we have Polite Michel instead of Ranting, Insult Slinging Michel? No Michel, let's not move on. Let's go back to where we started. I want you to show me any place on earth where Islam rules that is not a nasty hell-hole filled with intolerance, hatred, suppression, and violence. Show me anywhere that Islam has made life better due to its influx into a society. Show me where Islam is creating positive reform on a significant scale.

In other words, prove me wrong. Prove to me that there are tons of reform minded moderate Muslims denouncing terror and trying to reform their death cult. And I don't mean 7 anonymous posts by supposed Muslims on an anonymous blog. I mean actual group movements, where Muslims gather 1,200 or more people to reform Islam, where the mythological "moderate" Muslims are getting rid of "radical" clerics and closing evil madrassahs and mosques.

You won't step up to the plate because you can't.

"I am for my part curious to learn about how such material is being understood or valued by all of you."

It's all a bunch of baseless, unrealistic, lad-dee-dah, ignorant Bliss Bunny nonsense that is in direct denial of reality.

"Come on, guys, let's drop the emotion and anger and talk about the material we collect and submit."

Again...,? Yesterday it was slurs and insults, today you cry for peace? Make up your mind, Michel. You have no credibility whatsoever, and you're making it worse for yourself. Most intelligent people here see you as an ignorant clown, blind to reality and unwilling to use common sense.

"I repeat my open invitation for a multipoint cyberspace roundtable once again."

Oh please! [rolling my eyes] Who in their right mind is going to bother to go through all that hassle to argue with a clown who lives in denial of reality?

"Knowing that, even 100% differing ideas are being presented, the tonality of such a cyber table would be much mor e amicable than this anonymous exchange."

Once again, you prove yourself naive. People like myself are forced to remain somewhat civil and hold back how we really feel about you, because this is a moderated board. Given total freedom to speak our minds, you'd be curled up in the corner in a fetal position, crying.

"I sincerely hope that some of you are willing to try this experiment. "

How about a simpler experiment? How about you actually backing up even one of your absurd arguments (like say, the 30 million Muslims you claim live in America), or address any one of the intellectual challenges that have been thrown your way? I think that would be a more significant experiment.

"Hoping that you are with me in my effort to evolve our debate to the next ( better, respectful, unemotional) level, I remain with best regards"

Michel,... ? Seriously. Today you're all hugs and kisses and "let's remain unemotional and respectful", and tomorrow you'll be back to "Hitler would be proud of you", "you're a bunch of inbred fanatics", etc. ...

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Mark my comment as a response to Michel, no one is interested in your nonsense! by Noah Wilk

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".