office in Elizabethtown, Kentucky, conducted by Adina O'Hara on July7, 2004. Mr. Collier, in the 1962 legislative session, a communitycollege bill was passed authorizing the University of Kentucky togovern a, a new public community college system in Kentucky. What wasyour role in the creation of public two-year colleges in Kentucky?

COLLIER: It would be hard to say what my role was; although, beginning

in 1955 I conceived of the concept of a college in Elizabethtown,Kentucky. What I had in mind was a four-year, liberal arts, public1:00institution. We had no such in Kentucky at that time. We had thevarious schools with the various different colleges. But not one thatwas dedicated exclusively to a liberal arts education. In my opinion,that is the true education. Most of the other things are technicalschools where you're taught a trade. And I conceived of this as beinga place where better students throughout the state would come. I hada vision of, say, four thousand students; take in a thousand each year.This was the original concept. Where to place the, such a collegewas another consideration. And in looking around, I discovered thatat time Elizabethtown was the, one of the furthest places in the statefrom a state institution. At that time, the University of Louisville2:00was a municipal college; it was not a state college. So, in usinga map of Kentucky and drawing lines and so forth, I figured it outthat we were one of the farthest of any place in the state from anyinstitution. So, geographically, there was a reason why Elizabethtownwould be a good place for a state college. Also, Elizabethtownis somewhat closer to the center of the State than about any placein Kentucky. I think in Marion County somewhere is the absolutegeographic center, and we're not too far from that. But I thinkthe thing that made it, uh, more of, evident than anything, was thepopulation within this pie-shape affair that would have, uh, centeredwith Elizabethtown as the college was almost a third of the populationin the state. Of course, that included Jefferson County. Again, U of3:00L was not a state institution at that time. So we had geography on ourside, and we had population on our side. And I felt there was a greatneed for a liberal arts college in Kentucky, one exclusively given overto that. So, I went to the Chamber of Commerce in Elizabethtown andproposed that we might try to get the legislature to create a four-yearcollege in Elizabethtown. And I want to emphasize, that's what westarted out to get, was a four-year college. And, of course, you haveskeptics, and people who said, "you'll never do it, or it won't comeabout; you're just wasting your time." But, uh, I was finally ableto convince the Chamber to sponsor the drive to see if we could getit. And, we then started the process, I, I think I made a hundred4:00and four, um, speeches around trying to talk at various communitiesand various organizations. We went into surrounding counties to seeif we could build some political support for it. Because, as we allknow, politics plays a part in anything that's public, and we realizedthat that would be one of the considerations that we'd have to face.So we had some luck in some of the other counties getting at leastmild support for this project. Well, at that time, um, Happy Chandlerwas governor of the state, and this county had always been a verystrong Happy Chandler, uh, stronghold. He had carried the county bytremendous majorities every time he ran for about anything. So weassembled a group, particularly those who had supported Mr. Chandler5:00and were in his camp, went up to talk with him about getting a, a billthrough the legislature creating a four-year college in Elizabethtown.We spent about thirty minutes in the Governor's Office, and twenty-eight per-, minutes of that time he talked about his agenda and notours. I was rather discouraged when I came out, in spite of the factthat his supporters here said, "Oh, Happy will do what he can." I'venever felt like Mr. Chandler did anything to help us get anythinggoing. But anyway, um, the next election that came up, Bert Combswas running. And, uh, although I had been a pro-Chandler person inmy youth, I had become disillusioned with Chandler over the years,particularly, when he made such a big play to be president and kindof ignored this, the needs of Kentucky. So, I decided I would support6:00Bert Combs for governor. Now, he didn't have much support in thiscounty. So I guess I wound up being what you might call his campaignchairman, in, in, uh, Hardin County. And, uh, Mr. Robert Martin, Ithink he was superintendent of public construction at that time, andhe was also Bert Combs' campaign manager, came down to talk with me.And he asked me what we would like to have in Hardin County. AndI told him we would like to have a college. He made no promise, nocommitment. He said I'll go back and talk with the, Mr. Combs aboutit and let you know. Well it was three or four weeks before I heardfrom him. So I had the feeling that there was considerable amountof discussion went on between Mr. Martin and, and Mr. Combs as towhat they would do about this situation. He called me back and said,7:00"Jim, we'll go along with you." Now, that was really all he said. Hedidn't say four-year, two-year, anything. He just said, "We'll goalong with you." And my surmise is that they figured out this wouldbe a popular issue in Kentucky. And I feel like they went to othercommunities and discussed this situation with them; because when wegot the community college system, we had several on the board, ratherthan just the one in Elizabethtown; although, we did get the firstone here in Elizabethtown when we started the program. Well, we weree-, elated over the fact that we had got this commitment. In spiteof the commitment, Mr. Chandler, uh, his candidate -----------(??) hewas supporting, did carry the county again but by much less majoritythan they had usually done it. So it was obvious this was a popularissue, even in, um, a Happy Chandler county like Hardin. And, uh,8:00uh, when the legislature met, that was the first time we realized whatwe--(laughs)--were going to be in for was a community college systemrather than a four-year college. So, they introduced these bills tostart the, the community college system. And, uh, in the communitycollege system, um, we were supposed to be associated in with UK. Myunderstanding was UK was extremely unhappy to get us. They didn'treally want us. And, I guess you'd say we were forced on, w-, we camein as sort of an illegitimate child in the household, you might say.And, and, we were, we were, we were pretty unpopular up in Lexington.And, um--(clears throat)--Bert Combs got the bill through thelegislature authorizing the community college system but no community9:00colleges. Ned Breathitt had ran after Combs as his crown prince. Thistime we carried Hardin County and Ned Breathitt came through with themoney to start the community college system. They built us one plasticbuilding out on the campus that we, uh, have at the present time. And,uh, I'm sure it was a very cheap building. It cost the least of (??),you know, but I think that was the real first building ever put up fora community college anywhere in Kentucky. And, since then, of course,it has grown and grown. I think it had three-hundred-and-some-oddstudents the first year. And I understand now it's over four thousandstudents at our community college. The whole community college systemis just astronomical in number of people that are there.

O'HARA: Excellent. Um, now, when the community college act was

10:00initially passed, creating a system, there was no money attached tothat, correct?

COLLIER: My understanding was there was not because if we had to wait

until Ned Breathitt became governor before anything was done in theway of financing. And, uh, um, I went up to the legislature and tookmy maps, I had these maps they were about four feet by three feetin size, and, um, uh, showed them the maps and tried to convince thelegislature of the feasibility of putting up a college, uh, here.And I, and I think, economically, it was, it was a good idea, too,because a-, about that time, one of the colleges bought a lot, justa city lot, by the college, in one of these towns, and they paid more11:00for--(laughs)--it than we thought would, would buy a whole campus ina, in a new location. Because every one of the towns had grown outand pretty much surrounded the colleges. So, everybody had expensiveland. And, and, and student population was booming at that time.They, we were still having the bill, the GI Bill of Rights and thattype of thing and we were in tremendous growth in all the colleges.And seemed to us it would be more economic to start a new college thanto add to the existing colleges. And, unfortunately, I'm a person whobelieves in small institutions rather than large institutions, and Ifelt like the students would get better accommodations and, and, andeducation facilities at the smaller institution, too. So with allof this combined, it seemed that Elizabethtown was a logic place to12:00have some sort of institution of higher education. And I think thatfeeling was correct because this one has grown and grown and grown.And, uh, we still have approximately four thousand people out there,which incidentally is larger, larger than the university was beforeWorld War II. So, it's, uh, it has proved to be quite a popular typeof education.

O'HARA: It was very needed at the time.

COLLIER: I thought it was, and it turned out that it was, and, and I'm,

I'm, don't get me wrong, I'm not bad-mouthing the community collegesystem. I think it's been great for the state. It's just not what wetried to get.

O'HARA: Um-hm.

COLLIER: But, uh, what is it? Half a loaf is better than none? So we got

came and met with you after the community college act was put through,13:00and, uh--

COLLIER: Well, since we were the first college, um, Frank Peterson was

in charge of finances at UK, and, uh, Mr. Peterson had come there justbefore I got out of college to go in World War II. And I was familiarwith his so-called type policy programs. And I was not really surprisedwhen he came down, and says, "Now you-all are going to have to providethe land for us. We'll, we'll put up the building but you're going tohave to provide the land." And I think that sort of started the policy.I think in other places he made the same proposition to, of course wewere so fearful that something would happen that we immediately raisedmoney in the community, and went out and bought a beautiful farm thatis the current heart of campus. As a matter of fact, the organization14:00that we formed to buy this, which we call the North Central KentuckyEducation Foundation, raised the money, bought the land. We havegiven, I think around sixty acres to UK, and I don't know what they'vedone with it now. They've probably transferred it to the new group.And then we gave twenty acres for the technical school, and we havegiven land for a library. And we've still got a considerable amount ofland left over there. In fact, they put a bypass around Elizabethtown;went right through our campus and separated part of it off. That wesold because it could never be used with a limited access road betweenthe two campuses. But, uh, this organization still owns land outthere, which we are holding in reserve if the college grows. And it isgrowing, not only in, in population, but also in the number of coursesthey're giving. My understanding now is, it's associated more with15:00Western than it is with UK. And Western is offering, um, four-yeardegrees out there, I understand. I don't know exactly what areas itis, but, uh, but, uh, it is now pretty close to a four-year college.So I guess you say we came in the backdoor and got what we wanted.

O'HARA: Fascinating story, very interesting. Thank you so much for

sharing--

COLLIER: Um-hm.

O'HARA: --that with me. Um, I have some more general questions, and you

can let me know if, if, um, you know, if you have anything to add toany of these. Um, knowing as we do what happened and how it happened,we need to consider why it happened. Would you rec-, recount thereasons why the University of Kentucky Board of Trustees was chosenas the governing authority over the community colleges and what other16:00alternatives there were.

COLLIER: Well, of course, my concept was an independent board out here

for a four-year college just like they would have at UK, Western,Morehead, and the other, and the other schools. Um, we, of course,did not become an independent entity; therefore, there was no needfor a board. Now we did have what was called an advisory board. Andthese people were appointed by the Governor. Incidentally, I don'tknow whether you're aware of it or not, but these, um, trusteeships arepolitical plums that are handed out for political purposes, and peoplefight to get on those things. As a matter of fact, one governor toldme one time, when I was (??), we asked that we have a member on theboard from the Elizabethtown area, or UK board, because we felt likewe were treated like an illegitimate child so much by UK that we need17:00somebody up there--(laughs)--to sort of protect us. And we would,of course, protect the whole community college system 'cause we wereall in one, in one lump, so to speak. Um, we're talking about thesixties now. And he said, "Oh, I can get a twenty-five thousand dollarcontribution, uh, for appointing the trustee."

O'HARA: Wow.

COLLIER: So, they were, they were, um, in demand. We never did get

instated anybody from here on the board. They, apparently it wasworking for ----------(??) the political campaigns, and more in thepolitical campaign (??).

O'HARA: But that's the way the high education sector worked politically?

COLLIER: Yeah, unfortunately, it is. Now they, and they have some good

people on there. I'm not saying they don't have some good people.I always thought Ned Breathitt was an, was an excellent member ofthe board of trustees. And I'm sure he was on for political purposesbecause he has always been a powerful factor in th-, in this state.18:00Um, you get some good trustees. Uh, when we had our advisory boardout here, we had a few good trustees. We had some flunk (??) ones.Um, and they were all political employees (??). So, you get good andbad no matter what you do, I guess.

O'HARA: Documentation leading up to this decision to create a community

college system has been very informative. And an historian canreconstruct how the issue was emerging at the time. But the recordsare blank when it comes to explaining how the issue was resolved withthe regional colleges. At that time, teachers' colleges that becamestate colleges. Since you were there, what is your knowledge on howthe issue was resolved with, with the regionals?

COLLIER: Well, I, I must say, I've always been an outsider. So I'm not

on the inside; I don't know the workings of peoples' minds; I don'tknow why they did this or why--it's all surmise. But I do know that19:00the four regional colleges fought having these community colleges.I think they did it for, um, I guess you'd say, competitive reasons.They recognized there would be competition with them because moststudents from this county went to Western. And when the c-, whenthe community college was created here, most of the students who weregoing to college went to the community college. So, I'm sure we tookaway some of their students. And my experience has been that, thatmost college presidents are empire builders. They want to build theirempires up. And, um, my understanding was they were all against thecommunity college system, did everything they could to fight it. Um,at one time, I was in a meeting with the president of one of the fourcolleges, and he was blistering the community college system. I think20:00the fact that UK got them also disturbed them. I don't know whetherthey realized the political potential of these community colleges. Uh,well, UK didn't. For a period of time, UK was extremely hostile tothe whole community college system. But then they began to realize,that, hey we've got some political clout here. Because all of them,not only the county in which they're located, but a ring of countiesaround them, has an interest in those colleges. And I, I would guessthat probably a third of the legislators would be within this sphere ofinterest of the whole community colleges. So that gives you some prettygood political clout. And I think UK used us to get money from thelegislature, which they kept in Lexington. But at least before we weretaken from them, uh, I think they began to realize that they really had21:00a little political jewel in these, in these community colleges.

O'HARA: Critics have attacked the UK Community College System since

its conception. What were the benefits and drawbacks to having onegoverning structure, the UK Board of Trustees, that governed both theresearch university, the State's research university, and the communitycollege system?

COLLIER: That's sort of an unusual, uh, combination, if you want to

call it a research institution. Uh, I have never warmed to the conceptof being the best state university in the nation. I don't think that----------(??) got the finances to do that. I've always thought, let'seducate our children and get them prepared to face life.

O'HARA: Um-hm.

COLLIER: Now, if they want to do rare, rare, research, let them do it

at Harvard or Stanford or some of those places. So, I, I think that,22:00that, uh, the community colleges are more dedicated to proposition,we're going to take this average student and try to better his life.I, I feel like education does two things. It not only prepares youto make a living, but I think it prepares you to live. And if we canget these, uh, young people in this category, I think we've done thema great favor, a great service. And, uh, that's the reason I liketo have college available for any student who wants to try to go; infact, I'm a strong believer in scholarships and things of that natureto help, uh, people who cannot go to school. I remember, i-, in our,we have an, an organization here called the North Central EducationFoundation; that's what it used to be called. I think they've changedthe name now. But, I made several drives to get scholarships for it.23:00And one of the biggest moral crises I've had in that thing, there wasa certain student who applied for a scholarship. I knew his fathercould afford to send him to college if he quit drinking six packs ofbeer at night and wasted his money and that type of thing. And I, I,this bothered me. I thought, this man can quit all this foolishnessand put his child through college. But he wasn't going to. So whatare we going to do? Are we going to ignore this kid? Leave him outbecause of his sins of the forefathers, so to speak? We finally fellon the side of being in favor of giving him a scholarship. So I, I,I thought, why should we hold him back because of his parents? So, Ifeel like that, that our drive to create scholarships and give them todeserving students, I don't mean deserving financially, but deserving24:00mentally, um, would be, is an acceptable thing to do. So I, I like,I like for any young person who wants to, and is capable of doing it,to be able to go to college. Well, I think community colleges havedone far more to offer that type of service than all of the otheruniversities put together. Um, a student can live at home. Commute.Saves a lot of money. We've got, I guess we've got the cheapesttuition, I'm not sure anymore, but at one time we did. I think wehad pretty cheap tuition. So, people could afford to go. And thenwe made these drives to get scholarships. I guess I've, I've headedthree or four drives trying to get money for, for scholarships on thething. And we have several which are available. But, uh, I must agreewith, with Patton when he took us away from UK, that that was a strange25:00relationship with this so-called, we're going to be the best in thenation research and then it's okay, come average fellow, we'll, we'llgive you an education. Um, it was, it was an unusual marriage.

O'HARA: Are there any questions I have not asked that you wish I had?

(Collier laughs) That's my last question.

COLLIER: (laughs) You've done a good job. Uh, well, it, it's, uh, I

think the community colleges have done a great service for Kentucky. Idon't know that they have produced any Noble Prize winners, but, uh, Ithink they have upped the intellectual level of, of, uh, the communityand the state. Unfortunately, a lot of our people leave the state, asyou know, and go other places, and take all this good knowledge they've26:00got with them. But, somewhere along the line, we had to keep some ofthem here, and I think we do. So, I think we, I think we have uppedthe, uh, intellectual level in Kentucky. And, don't get me wrong, inspite of the fact I wanted a four-year liberal arts college here, I'mgrateful that we have had the junior college system. And, um, I thinkthat, uh, I think that it has done a great service for the state ofKentucky at a very reasonable price.

O'HARA: It still remains, too, it's still the lowest--

COLLIER: Um-hm.

O'HARA: --the lowest cost in the state?

COLLIER: Yes. I believe it probably would be. And then, plus, they can

live at home and commute.

O'HARA: And, uh, one point that I, I think, um, the community colleges

allow non-traditional students, veterans who had returned who had27:00families, or older, and, uh, not the average eighteen-age, to go toschool at night in some cases, um, or go part-time. So they could holdfulltime jobs, and they wouldn't have to leave their job--

COLLIER: Um-hm. Um-hm.

O'HARA: --and go to, to other cities.

COLLIER: Yeah, um, I, I'm not real familiar with, uh, what goes on

out at Elizabethtown Community College as, as much as I was back inthe, my younger days. And, um, at one time, I believe, we had morepart-time students than fulltime students. As would be people likeyou're talking about who worked and would maybe take only one coursea semester. But, they're building up three hours at a time, and afterten years--(laughs)--they've got a college education.

O'HARA: It is. It works for all different, all ----------(??)--

COLLIER: Yes it does. Um-hm. And I think that's great. I'm, I'm in

28:00favor of, of being educated all your life. I think it's great that,uh, that people thirty-five, forty, even fifty, sixty--they starteda thing at UK one time that I thought was pretty nice called, I thinkcalled Donavan's Scholarships where the old folks could--(laughs)--goto school for free or some such. I thought that was a great, uh, greatthing.

O'HARA: I do, too. I actually had a Donavan Scholar in one of my

classes, and what he had to offer the class was just phenomenalexperience--

COLLIER: Um-hm.

O'HARA: --and a wealth of information.

COLLIER: Well, there's one thing you can say about us old folks. We

may have a lot of faults, a lot of weaknesses, but one thing we do haveis experience.

all, to, to help me out with, uh, with my research. I could not do itwithout people like yourself.

COLLIER: Well, I feel like Elizabethtown is really the reason why we

have a community college system. I think we sparked the thing. I29:00think to satisfy us politically we were offered it, and I think that itbecame such a nice political talking point that other communities wereoffered them, too, and now they have them. And I think that's great.So, I guess if you're talking about Elizabethtown, we're probably thegrandfather--(laughs)--of the whole system. We didn't intend to be,but we are.