Consulting is a two-way transaction. While people know this, not many take it to heart. A consultant goes beyond merely telling their clients what to do; rather, they listen and build trust in one another. This episode’s guest is a leading authority on driving consistent revenue growth through client loyalty and business relationships for over 35 years. Host, Michael Zipursky, sits down with Andrew Sobel, author, speaker, and coach. Here, Andrew shares how we can master the art of consulting sales and client relationships. He dives deep in differentiating the expert mindset from the advisor mindset, leveraging the first meeting with a client to make the right impression, driving your marketing strategy as a consultant, scaling growth, and more. Tune into this conversation with Andrew to understand why starting with clients is a great way of creating a highly profitable consulting business.

Mastering The Art Of Consulting Sales And Client Relationships With Andrew Sobel

I’ve been a fan of your work for a long time. You are the leading authority on driving consistent revenue growth through client loyalty and business relationships for over 35 years. You’ve worked with firms like Bain & Company, PwC, Deloitte and many more. They’ve relied on your expertise. You’ve written multiple bestselling books that have sold from over 250,000 copies. Over 40,000 professionals have gone through your training and learning programs. People often consider consulting a relationship business. Some call it a marketing business. In your experience, what rings through to you when you think about consulting and being a consultant?

There are different things that take on different levels of importance as you go through your career. If you think about it very early in your consulting career, especially if you’re working for a firm where perhaps the marketing and brand are done by the partners of the brand is embodied in the firm itself, developing your expertise is critical. That’s true also of a new consultant or someone who has set up their own practice who came from the industry. You have to be known for something. We all can’t be a Peter Drucker who is thought of as a management guru. Peter Drucker did a lot of individual jobs before he became a management guru and demonstrated his expertise. Early on, that’s critical. What I find is that then gets in the way of a very successful consulting career and having great client relationships.

What do you mean by that? Here is someone’s developing expertise but you mentioned that can get in the way a little bit of their growth.

I’m guilty of it as anyone else. Our culture loves experts. Clients love experts. They want someone who has great expertise in a particular problem they’re solving. What happens is we develop what I call the expert mindset. The expert mindset is, “I’m here to give you the answers. It’s all about my solutions, my methodology, my expertise.” We tend to tell, present at clients. We want to convince them of our credibility. I’ll distinguish the two. What we’re trying to get to is deep expertise but with the advisor mindset. I also call that person in my very first book, Clients for Life, we wrote about the deep generalist. It’s somebody who has very deep expertise which is your ticket to entry. It gets you chosen but they’ve layered breadth on top of that. That breadth includes strategic thinking skills, big picture skills, but it also includes relational skills. It includes business acumen, not just methodology.

Can you distinguish and differentiate it for us? You mentioned on one side there’s the expert mindset and then the other side there’s the advisor mindset. How do they differ? Offer an example or two of each.

I had a client once who was presenting and this big slide deck was interesting. After about twenty slides, he stopped in front of this big room and everybody was interested in the next section. He said, “I’m going to skip the next twenty slides. That’s not in my bailiwick. That’s somebody else’s expertise.” Everyone was like, “We want to talk about this.” He said, “That’s not my expertise.” He took the twenty slides and rip them off and then went into the next section. That’s an example of expert behavior. Another good example is consultants who say, “I want to go visit this client. I want to go talk to a prospect but I need a good idea. I need a killer idea to go have a conversation.” Honestly, a lot of my clients have big firms, Michael. They also want to have a PowerPoint deck. It’s a little less of a problem with independent consultants because you have to be more entrepreneurial. You can’t spend all your time building a 50-page deck.

In big firms, I’ll tell you which is a lot of my client base, they build these big decks. It’s like, “I need a PowerPoint deck to go talk to a client.” What ends up happening is you set this incredibly high hurdle to talk to a client. The fact is great relationships are based on great conversations, not one person showing the other how smart they are. That’s not how it works. Those are some examples of how expert behavior trips and stuff. I like to say experts tell advisors to ask great questions and listen. Experts sell, advisors create a buyer who’s enthusiastic about what you have to offer. Experts build professional credibility, not bad. Advisors build deep personal trust. We could go from Michael saying, “Andrew, I trust the information you’re giving me,” to, “Andrew, I not only trust your information but I trust your integrity. I know you will always come to the truth for me. You’ll let me know about the problems as soon as they arise, you want to try to hide them.”

That’s a whole different level of trust by personal integrity. Another good important difference is as experts, we like to analyze. When you analyze, you tear a problem down into pieces in a sense. Advisors are very good at synthesis. It’s putting the pieces back together, seeing the patterns and so on. That’s treasured by clients. They can hire lots of experts who are commodities who can do an analysis but they find the advisor like you, for example, who can perhaps bring more of a big picture thinking to the table, that’s treasured by them because it’s not that common skill. Those are some of the differences.

Would you say in your experience and looking back at your career and the careers of other successful consultants or people in professional services, is it a progression? Do people typically begin their journey as experts working in an organization? Is that their ticket to the front door if their brand is not yet established and then once they’re in the door, they have the opportunity to shift from being the experts and now becoming the advisor? Is it possible for someone to reach advisor status without doing the expert level work and start working with clients right away at that level?

I’m not going to give you a yes or no answer. It’s hard to operate at that trusted advisor level if the client doesn’t have a strong belief in your competence and ability to deliver. On the one hand, there is a bit of a progression, which is you have to establish that you know your stuff. When I meet with a client for the first time, despite significant experience at this point, I’m nearly 40 years of experience including not just as a consultant but as a C-Suite executive in a big consulting firm, I still though have to impress the client that I understand their problem and I have solutions that will fix that problem. Let me go back on what I said. Even in that very first meeting, as you demonstrate your expertise you also can be demonstrating your advisory chops, your business acumen, your big picture thinking.

I might ask my clients some interesting questions about their challenges that demonstrate my expertise. I call them credibility building questions. At the same time, I’m going to be stepping back and exploring the big picture with them. I’m going to be potentially challenging them, which is something an advisor does. You challenge, you don’t accept the problem definition. I also might be perhaps delving into the personal aspects of the problem and asking some more personal and emotional questions. You can do them simultaneously when you’re getting to know a client. It doesn’t have to be a rigidly linear progression. I don’t think Millennials are that different than I was as a Baby Boomer. Most young people are in a hurry. They think they know everything. You do have to be careful about showing up on the job or at an employer and trying to put this impression forth that you already know everything because people are going to see right through that.

You hit on my next question here which is, and I know you talk about it in your new book, how to leverage that first meeting with a client to make the right impression. You have a whole bunch of questions that people can use not only in this new book but in your other book, Power Questions and others as well that are great. Talk through a little bit here for people reading this, what are a few questions, ideas or frameworks that they should be thinking about when they go to that meeting and want to make a great first impression?

The big picture here is you have to get through 4 or 5 key objectives in any first meeting. You need to build rapport and set up the meeting, so we can dig into that a little bit. The next step is you need to establish your credibility if they don’t know you very well. There are good ways of doing that and bad ways of doing it. Third, you have to try to understand their agenda. The agenda for me is what are their critical priorities? Any good consultant knows they need to do that but often they don’t go about it in the right way. They ask questions like, “What keeps you up at night? What does success look like?” There are a lot of cliché questions that aren’t that effective. Fourth, you’re trying to find a mutual issue of interest that you can go deep on. That’s the thing. Is there an urgent issue here or something the client is struggling a bit with that you have the expertise and some solutions? I’m trying to find that red issue. I don’t want the pink issue or the minor issue. I’m trying to find out what is it that we could have a great conversation about. You go deep and you add value in the conversation.

What would be maybe one example of that type of question that you would put to someone that demonstrates your expertise that you’ve done some homework, but also is not answering a question that you already know the answer that you’re trying to identify that value? What might you ask in that situation?

I’ll give you an example and there are a couple of techniques for this. One technique is I call it simply the credibility building question. It’s very simple but it takes a little thought to formulate these and to have them in your back pocket. It has two parts. Part one is an observation. Part two is a question. In my world, if I were meeting with a client, let’s say they were struggling to move their client-facing executives from being subject matter experts to being C-suite advisors. That might be something. I might say something like this. In the research, I’ve done and in my experience in working with similar clients on this issue, there are three significant barriers to making that shift from subject matter expert to C-suite advisor. Number one, this limiting expert mindset that people get them into. Number two, it’s a measurement and reward system because you’re rewarding not rewarding people for the C-suite behaviors. You’re now rewarding them for expert behaviors. Third, organizational silos, which make it hard for anyone individual to be adequately representing the totality of solutions you bring.

Those aren’t necessarily always the same three but those are three. I would then flip it. I’d say, “Michael, in your organization, what are you finding is holding you back? What are some of the barriers you find?” In 30 or 60 seconds I’ve shown, “I understand this but I don’t want to talk a lot about me, I want to talk to you.” I flip it. I find that’s a good way of establishing your expertise. Another variant of that question is the implication question. I might say, “It’s interesting. I’ve noticed in the consulting industry that there is a divergence or the market seems to be splitting between very large firms that dominate big swathes of Corporate America and a lot of very small boutiques and individual practitioners. A lot of the midsize firms are getting squeezed out. Here’s an example of that.” I’m not sure that’s true but it might be a little bit true. I would say, “As a mid-size firm yourself, how are you experiencing these competitive dynamics? What pressure are you feeling from below and above?”

Have you asked, at this stage, other questions? If we take your first example of the moving from experts to C-suite advisor. How would you know that’s an issue for, or even saying that the person cares about? Would that have come up in conversation beforehand or even before you set the meeting?

They might’ve said to me on the phone or in an email. If I go in cold, and this does happen to me, people email me and say, “Andrew, we read your book here at my company. We’d love to talk to you.” Often, I end up on the phone or face-to-face with them and I haven’t done as much homework as I should have in terms of saying exactly what you want to talk about on your call. Sometimes, they’re very genuine and they said, “We would like to get to know you and explore what you might have to offer at our company.” One of the first questions I ask is I’ll sit down and say, “Mary, it’s great to meet you. From your perspective, what would be the most valuable use of the time we have together?” You’d be surprised how quickly that gets galvanizes their focus on what they want to talk about, as opposed to me assuming they want to hear all about Andrew Sobel and my books and so and so. Another version of that, and I might use this with a current client, I might sit down with them and say, “Michael, I’m glad we could get together. I know we have our agenda that we discussed but tell me, what’s the single most important issue you want to make sure we discuss or cover?”

I’m always getting people to refocus or to focus on what they want. The result is instead of dancing around a lot of stuff, you get them focused on an issue. Here’s the key thing that is emotionally energizing to them. It’s something they’re excited about or they’re very fearful about when I do that. I sometimes will start that in a meeting to get them focused. Other ways of getting on that agenda, you can go direct. You do your research and if you know somebody in the organization, a coach, they can coach you on what they think is important. That’s one thing. There are direct questions that I don’t like that much. The direct questions are, “What are the top three issues you’re grappling with this year? What are your three biggest priorities for fiscal twenty?” The reason I don’t love the direct ones is that the more senior the executive, the less likely that they’re going to tell you what’s on their mind. They might give you the party line. If the clients don’t know you and trust you, they’re not going to open up.

It also appears that the consultant in that situation hasn’t taken the time to do some homework. They haven’t shown that they understand or have tried to understand the situation, that the person or the organization might be in. Is that also a factor?

Yes. It doesn’t show much preparation to say, “What are your top issues?” I’ve interviewed thousands of top executives on this topic. What they tell me is, “You have to walk a fine line between prepping, preparing, knowing the outlines of our strategy. You can’t walk in here assuming that you know what’s important to me.” A real story here. One of my clients, the CEO of a technology company, told me that one of the big consulting firms called him up. It was a very prestigious firm. One of the partners there said, “We’d like to come by and see you.” The guy came with two other consultants and sat down on the couch in his office and he said they started the meeting by saying, “Tell us about your business and strategy.” He told me, “I stood up from behind my desk, walked over and I looked at them and said, ‘No, I’m not going to talk about that. You tell me why you’re here. What’s our agenda? Add some value to the conversation and then maybe I’ll tell you a little bit about my strategy.’” It’s a joke. Clients say to me, “The consultants come in, they ask me what my three top issues are, then they say we can help you with number two.”

It’s interesting because you use the word, obviously, when you talked about obviously doing your homework. I believe it’s obvious to others hopefully as well. In the day and age that we’re in right now, many people seem to be focusing less on relationships and more on transactions. They’re trying to automate all aspects of their outreach. They’re focusing more on volume, not on value. I’m interested in your experience here from a marketing perspective. Let’s say that you have your brand. It’s not the Andrew Sobel brand but let’s go back twenty years in time or so. You want to reach a decision-maker, an executive at a well-established company. They may have heard of your work or they haven’t ever heard of you. How do you get in front of them? A lot of the questions where you can demonstrate your value and deliver value come when you’re in front of the client. Many consultants struggle how to get in front of that prospective client. What have you found works best to have an opportunity to speak and to meet with an ideal client if you don’t know for certain what their big issues are?

That’s the million-dollar question. The honest answer to that is that it requires a multi-pronged strategy and a lot of hard work.

Tell us about your strategy.

This my new book but this is something a theory I’ve always had. I won’t go into all the details but I believe there are about five models for driving your marketing strategy as a consultant. Often, we use several of them. It’s not like there’s one model.

It’s a hybrid of times.

My number one strategy is a content-led strategy. It’s a content marketing strategy. When I first left Gemini Consulting, where I had been for fifteen years. I had been a senior partner and I run a country operation for them. In the first couple of years, it was a relational strategy. I knew or got introduced to people I knew to several CEOs. One of them was Cox Communications, the other one was a big tech firm on the West Coast, and another one was one in Dallas. For 2 or 3 years, I had a great practice with a couple of clients, very top-level work. That was a relational strategy. I said, “I don’t think this is sustainable for a long-term career as building a small practice.” I developed a content-led strategy. I started writing books. I was fortunate, I started writing the first book in 1999. It came out in 2000. It was the right time and the right place and it was called Clients for Life. There were a bunch of books on the topic at that time back. Nobody had written a book about advisory relationships. A few months after that, David Maister published The Trusted Advisor, and that started the wave. That book, I’ll be honest, was transformational because it was very well. It was on some bestseller lists and so on.

I didn’t stop there. I also started publishing. You might know Alan Weiss, and Alan at that time said to me, “You wrote this book. Why don’t you send a newsletter out to people each month?” This was before people were doing a lot of newsletters. I thought, “Alan, that’s the stupidest idea I ever heard. Why would anyone want to read a newsletter from me?” He said. “Andrew, I don’t care what you write in your newsletter, just repump the chapters of the book. The whole idea is to get people excited in your work and get in front of them and to project thought leadership.” I thought, “I like that idea.” I’m going to give Alan credit for that.

I sent the first issue to 100 people in about 2002. All of a sudden, it was growing and growing. I’m not like some of these sales gurus who have 100,000 salespeople who subscribed, but I’ve got a big executive base that subscribed. I began writing articles. I said, “I’m not going to write one book. I won’t be like Alan Weiss who writes 63 books, but every couple of years I want to write a book.” That was my strategy. I also use a relational and referral strategy. That’s critical to me. You have to remember even if you do good work for clients, they don’t necessarily actively promote you.

What are you doing there? I’ve always seen that there are proactive referrals as I call them, which is what most people do or I should say reactive where you receive a referral if you’re lucky, you do good work and you appreciate it hopefully. That’s what most people live in, that they’re reactive. There’s the whole other side of that which is being proactive. It’s having a system or multiple systems where you’re actively looking for referrals or asking those that you’re working with. What have you found works best to generate referrals?

First, you have to create an enthusiastic client. It’s critical because you’re not going to get those referrals reactive or proactive if they’re not excited about you. The way you get people excited about your work is you deliver good work. Secondly, you build a relationship with them through which their own career and their success have been enhanced. It’s personal. It’s not you help them cut costs which is great. They feel a personal connection to you and that their success has been linked to a warm trusted relationship with you.

Is that through asking questions?

You can start building that through asking more personal questions about an individual, what I call dreams questions. Questions about aspirations goals, legacy, dreams and so on. It comes from getting to know them as a person. You don’t have to be best friends with them. One of the best ways to do that is to get them out of the office. You talk about different things. It comes from the questions you ask and it also comes from you sharing about your life. When I was younger, I was a lot more reserved. I had that professional veneer. As I’ve worked more and more in business and executives over the years, I’ve come to realize that it’s good to be professional but people like you as a person. Hopefully, they do. There’s a lot of research that shows this is true. People feel a much bigger connection to you when they feel that there has been disclosed and even been vulnerable.

I remember once, one of my best clients was the chairman of one of the biggest law firms in the country. This was years ago. One of our teenage kids was having some very significant difficulties teenagers can have but it was serious. I remember when I shared with him, I was teaching a workshop. Halfway through the workshop, I pulled him aside and said, “I want you to know what’s going on. If I seem at all distracted, it’s because this is a tough issue my wife and I are dealing with making a decision.” He was so empathetic, sympathetic and supportive.

About six months later, he said to me, “Andrew, how’s your daughter doing?” I said, “You don’t want to hear about it.” He said, “I do want to hear about it because I consider you a friend.” I’m not telling your audience to go off and start sharing all the details of their personal lives with their clients. I’m saying that it’s okay to be imperfect. It’s okay to say, “I went through that once myself.” People only root for you when they feel a personal connection. That’s important. How do you get referrals? You can’t do this with every client. Some are more aloof but with some of your clients, you do try to get to know them as people. You get them out of the office. You ask them lots of questions. You take an interest in them and you make sure that you are helping them with their personal agenda, not just their business agenda.

The personal agenda could include networking, meeting the right people, getting out on a board of directors. It could include they moved to town and you can introduce them to a doctor or a lawyer or school. Lastly on referrals, when I’ve done it, I’m very specific. I say to a client, “I know that you’re on this so-and-so professional association board. Wendy Smith on the board is someone whose company is in my sweet spot. The kind of issues they’re grappling with are very much the ones that I deal with.” “I’m wondering if you could introduce me to Wendy.” I’m very specific and I give a reason why as opposed to, “Are there any other companies you can introduce me to?” I’ll give you another one. These are my secrets here. I’ll show you one other technique that I learned years ago from a senior partner at one of the big consulting firms. He told me he had massive referrals. He said, “Every client I acquire, spins off five new clients.” He told me that among other things, one of his techniques was at the beginning of the relationship. This is not after the first meeting. This is after they were well underway with a successful project, maybe a couple of months into it.

He would say, “Michael, all of our business comes through personal referrals. A year from now, I hope that we will have done such an outstanding job for you and your organization that you’ll feel comfortable giving us a referral.” I’m mentioning it now because a year from now, I’m going to sit down and ask you. He said it worked incredibly well. Nine or twelve months later, he would sit down with them and say, “I know you’re on such and such aboard. This company worked at very high levels. We would love to meet Raymond Smith or whoever on that board.” He said it worked like a charm because he was throwing the gauntlet down and saying, “I’m putting my reputation on the line that you’re going to be so happy with us in a year’s time. You’re going to give us a referral to a new client.” I tend to be a little more laid back about that but it worked incredibly well for him and his firm and this is a very prestigious firm. You also have to do this in a way that fits your personality.

Your business from an outside appearance looks like the brand is all about Andrew Sobel. I don’t see a team of consultants and complexity. I’m wondering what has been your approach like? Take us behind the scenes because you’ve been able to create a very significant business to make a terrific impact on those that you work with directly but even those who have consumed the content that you put out in all the many forms. How do you think about scaling, growth and creating a highly profitable successful business? How have you done that from a structural perspective of there’s only one of you?

There are different models and six different ways to achieve a seven-figure practice. I had spent under fifteen years in big consulting in leadership positions. I decided that I didn’t want to do any more performance reviews. It depends on your personal circumstances. We had made a decision at that time, we were living in Europe, we moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico, which is up in the mountains. It’s out in the desert. Everyone thinks it’s the desert. It’s one in the North of Santa Fe in the High Desert. We built a house out there. It wasn’t very practical for me to build a consulting practice being based in Santa Fe but I did. I decided to choose to follow more of the solo practitioner model.

How many people are involved in your company?

The traditional way of defining involvement doesn’t necessarily apply in the digital age. I have a couple of contractors who work with me who will help deliver programs. I have a vibrant eLearning business and online business, which is not labor-intensive. Creating and marketing is it, but that creates a great scale and reach. One of the programs I’ve had thousands and thousands of corporate clients. These aren’t individuals.

Is this you going in and selling X number of seats or licenses to an organization or is it a one sale at a time?

With a corporation, online learning is a solution sale. They’re getting Andrew Sobel in different ways with that course. I might be doing webcasts, workshop or coaching. It’s not completely standalone. eLearning in a corporate setting, they want some of you as well. I also have licensed my training programs to about half a dozen training firms outside the United States. That’s been an interesting effort. I have a partner in Salt Lake who does that with me, David Covey who’s the son of Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits guru. Operationally, they’re not employees but I have a graphic artist, audio engineer, eLearning consultant who’s a learning specialist, a social media marketing firm that does works with me from time-to-time, and a publicist. I’ve got all of these resources around me but some of them are more full-time than others as I need them. There are a lot of pieces to it but it is about me.

I have friends who have very successfully built small firms that in revenue terms, they’re between $1 million and $5 million. They’ve got 3 or 4 people or they got 10 or 12 people. That’s a journey to itself. I used to do this in big consulting. You’re going to wake up in the morning thinking I do have mouths to feed. I have staff, I’ve got to get out there and sell. I’m not saying this is better than that model, it is different. I wanted to be able to look at clients in the eye and feel if this business is right for both of us, fantastic. If it’s not right for you or it’s not right for me, that’s great too. We’ll do business and you walk away. It’s been much easier for me to be that trusted advisor to top executives. I feel because I never had the pressure, the incentive or whatever that I had to feed an organization and I had to sell.

Part of that strategy though if you’re like me, you do have to build a brand, you’ve got to publish and you’ve got to get yourself in a position where you can charge very high fees for speeches, for workshops, and for coaching. I don’t know what the percentage is but I’m in the top 1% in terms of the fees I charge. Clients love it because they get value. You’ve got to be up there. If you want to do what I do, you don’t want to be in the bottom core tile of fees. You’re not going to make any money because, in a small firm, you make money partly through the leverage.

Your focus is on value not on volume.

Also, the digital scale through a royalty stream and a digital learning stream.

There’s so much more that people should be learning about you and your work. I want to make sure that we can point them to that place. Before we get to that, you have a new book. It’s called It Starts with Clients. Tell us where did this book come from? Why did you write it? Where can people go to learn more about it?

It Starts With Clients:Your 100-day Plan To Build Lifelong Relationships And Revenue has taken everything I have learned through my research and my practice over the last several years, especially a lot of new things that I developed in the last decade. I packaged them in this book for anyone who is client-facing, anyone who’s trying to build a practice with clients. It is framed around fourteen challenges that every client-facing person, a consultant, a lawyer, a banker, a salesperson, faces fourteen challenges. It starts from identifying your ideal clients, getting recognized, having a great first meeting to more sophisticated topics. How do you reframe issues to define the totality of the problem? How do you access C-suite executives? How do you work with top people? It covers increasingly challenging and sophisticated topics as you get through the book. It’s structured around the idea of 100 days. What I’m doing is I’m inviting my clients and any readers of the book into what I call this 100-day challenge.

I created a little growth guide with weekly exercises, not so little, it’s comprehensive. When people sign up for it, they get the guide and they get fifteen weekly emails with links to the contents, the materials and their assignment for that week. That’s what we’re focusing on with a lot of people. My clients are quite excited about it because everybody loves a campaign. Let’s take 100 days and elevate our standing with our client-base. Let’s get in front of clients more. Honestly, right now, that’s important because we’re in very uncertain economic times public health crisis. You don’t want to get in your client’s hair if they’re doing urgent things, but you do want to have the pulse of the market at a time like this.

Where can people go to learn more about the book and your home-base of all your work?

I have a couple of resources. I have a page set up on it with the growth guide and everything. It’s simply AndrewSobel.com/ClientGrowth or goes to my website, AndrewSobel.com and you can find it. My Learning Academy is a big resource for my clients which is Learning.AndrewSobel.com. I give away a lot of stuff for free. There are about 400 articles on my website. If people can go there and download as many articles as they want, I’ll be happy to see them.

Andrew, thank you again so much for coming on and sharing some of your best practices, principles, and experiences with us. I really do appreciate it.

Michael, you’re very welcome. It’s been an engaging conversation. You asked very good questions. You’ve obviously gone to school on asking powerful questions. Best of luck.

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