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psychobabbling

After some initial doubt, I've for several reasons decided to start this topic. Most likely it will die a silent and unmourned death. We shall see.

First I want myself and the closet-sextourists to get out of each others' hair. I can't abide the fourletter words, the bad spelling, braggings and "I almost made it" stories, spiced with expressions like "hot babes" etc. On the other hand the !!!!WOW!!! types do not like words with many syl-lab-les, so here such is concentrated in one place, which they can avoid. In other words, the contributers to this topic can, without interference, bore each other to death, if we wish to.

Next: Having a soft spot for conspiracy theories I'm convinced, that not only anti-scammers read anti-scam sites, a lot of other groups do it also. The scammers themselves, agency representatives, ultrafeminists (just-hating-men-on-general-principles), chatters (having nothing to say, but doing it with many words) and those just curious. The possibilty of disinformation is real, but maybe it's possible to suppress it by being longwinded and circumstantial.

And last, the most important. Internet-dating is after all only one aspect of the the eternal "war of the sexes". To understand net-dating, I believe it's necessary to paint a broader background canvas. Say, are we just a bunch of grumpy querulants or is there really a difference between not being able to get along with your next-door childhood love and a FSUW? Where and what is the difference? Even without a computer, a different cultural background or alcoholism, Sue-Ellen could still be a conartist or pro-dater. Especially if she's good-looking.

I'm not completely sceptical about FSU dating (internet or not). In the last app. 18 years I've had three longer relationships (in the biblical sense) with SFUW, lasting alltogether 14 years. These relationships broke up for the same personal reasons, as any other relationships do. And I've had my share of scandinavian psychos. For me the question is the PROBABILITY of meeting "straights" or "bends" in each group.

So I invite for wievs on this. And I have a few proposals for background-basics:

I believe, that we like all other animals fundamentally are biological robots. We have a digestive system with two openings, a need to reproduce and to fight for a place in a predatory system. That's our startingpoint. But compared to other animals, we also have rather complex emotions and intellect. We have a possibility, individually or culturally, to be more than just reptile-brained. And different individuals/cultures/subcultures use this possibility in various degrees.

And I also suggest to sort out the differences between women and men. For the present bunch of probably half-machos it's maybe an idiotic question. But believe me, in this time of unisex, feminism, equal opportunities and so on, the issue has seriously, repeatedly and heatedly been raised, if there IS any difference (in spite of different plumbing and men's inability to get pregnant). I strongly support the idea, that women and men are almost different species, and as in any other contact with ETs, we need a lot of diplomacy to establish peaceful contact.

most men actlike that anyways.
I watched documentaries in which skull endocasts of ferocious dinosaur predator Allosaurus were examined to determine how it would hunt, how discerning it was and whether it was more like crocodiles (attack immediately & eat whatever smells right ) and birds ( giant birds are quite picky ).
Endocasts showed the dinosaur's brain was much like a crocodile's...much of the brain devoted to harvesting sensory information, but little brain areas devoted to process information.
Men are much the same...that is why all those profiles of scantly dressed young beauty queens fuel a multi-millionaire industry based mostly on nothing.
I can buy a ?3,99 computer mouse and that'll be the lowest performing, cheapest made mouse ever, but it's still something.
I can spend ?399,99 or 3999,99 on WWW/LD dating sites and ancillary services ( domestic or MOB makes no difference ) and be left with nothing but delusion and empty fantasies.
Phone sex lines come to mind.
Yes, you are talking dirty to a soft, slutty female voice glad to share your ultimate wishes, but for all you know she might be 67yo and looking like aunt Jemima; you know you are going nowhere, but go nowhere at ?3,99/minute +VAT.
A difference might exist for the "get laid tonight" kind of men joining a local metro area dating site for the sole purpose of one-night-stands...there expectations (thus chance of trouble ) are cut to the bone...meet in a neutral place, have sex in a motel and things like that...his four undisclosed kids and her psychological illness may have no bearing.
Psychology is there...ignore at your expenses.

Ham, you're right. Though I think, that women have reptile-reflexes also.

In societies with a certain level of technology many of the PHYSICAL reptile instincts are obsolete, but the psychological part will still exist, making a travesty of rational behaviour. With men this often manifests as playing alpha-male baboons, allegorically showing rumps or chestbeating, whereas the females (because of the offspring-caring instincts) will be interested in safety and shelter, and also in the protective interest of the dominant male(s). This means stability and hoarding for the females, opposite the males roving around without a care (apart from mating as much as possible).

With "modern" man money- or powergrabbing shows his value as a mate.

With "modern" women, this reptile-reflex shows in a completely unnecessary/beyond-actual-needs attitude towards hoarding. And my personal opinion/experience is, that this syndrome is especially and grotesquely pronounced in FSUW. They really believe, that everybody in the west has the famous swimmingpool etc., and they
(the FSUW) can get a piece of the cake by promises of/or actually putting themselves in horizontal (or more advanced) positions periodically.

Ofcourse this conflict of interests has existed as long as biological life, but in FSU it's out of proportion. The residues of reptile instincts are DOMINATING their culture, putting a lot of more important issues aside. Before they can start producing their own consumers goods, they must learn to cooperate as a group, and with a one-man-upship philosophy, this is difficult.

Admittedly the same phenomenon also exists in the west, but we have in some miraculous way brought it down to a level, where it won't collapse our societies. Maybe because we didn't get the technological blessings served on a silver plate, but had to learn slowly. In ALL contacts between technological/non-technological societies the later crumbles in a generation or two, because everyone wants a transistor-radio (or whatever), preferably yesterday.

So maybe the western reptile male and the reptile FSUW are equally dumb or primitive, but their motives are so different, that any pretense of real communication can only be on a strict "deal" basis. I pay, you deliever.

swede and ham, I hope you don't mind me sitting in with you intellectuals, but I also get my fill of some of the low-brows, oracles, sex-tourists etc. Although my vocabulary may not be up to your level, I believe my thoughts are.

swede, your suspicions that this and similar sites are visited, if not monitored, by others are well founded. I can't say much about the ultrafeminists, etc, but as for scammers, more than likely, and agencies, definitely. A gentleman claiming to be the manager or owner of an FSU dating site actually engaged in one of the forums and I'm sure there have been others. I say let them look. Collectively, we are much brighter than they are, as long as we keep our wits when venturing into the FSU/MOB world.

I ventured into the FSU/MOB world through a bizarre twist, and became infatuated by the stories, thus chose to persue a "real" relationship in this theatre, not knowing the pitfalls when I made that faithful decision. Like you, I have just as much of a distain for the sex-tourists as the scam artists. My trip to Ukraine is to spend a week with one girl, and only one, with the hope that we will find we really have something special that can only be realized by such a meeting.

I am honest with myself concerning this meeting. I am trying to understand the cultural differences as best I can. The fact will always remain that it is a woman that I am meeting, and unlike some, I make no claims to be able to figure out the mindset of a woman.

As ham has said on several occasions, FSUW's are from another country, not another planet. I understand your point, but as swede stated, men and women regardless of what country they are native to, are almost like two different species. And when I say that it's as though men and women are from different planets, it's merely a metaphorical stretch to emphasize my point about the differences between the sexes, not only the physical aspects, but the mental and emotional.

I've had several long relationships. Two lasted six years each and the last was over seven years living together. I still cannot figure out what motivated her to do the self-destructive things she did?

But as for basic brain chemistry in the majority of the population, it does appear to still be rooted in the more primal instincts. Men strive to become the alpha male in order to attract the most desireable mate. Women seek the security and protection that such a mate can provide her and any offspring they may produce.

The physical differences also are rooted in primal necessity. Men are designed to be physically stronger to be provider and protector, right down to the circulatory system. In a program I watched maybe a year ago, it was shown how blood flow through a man is intended to provide warmth to his extremities for the purpose of hunting and foraging in colder weather, where as a woman will retain a great deal of her body heat around her torso which was presumed for the purpose of keeping an unborn child warm.

People have certainly changed in appearance a great deal since the days of the neanderthal, but all of the basic genetic code still remains. Now, what I see as the great challenge to FSUW's is the basic mental and emotional differences between men and women, coupled with a generation of women coming out of the represive Soviet era and discovering technologies that were commonplace for western women for years if not decades.

Now a place for the low-brow thinking would be to ponder what effect does western TV have on the mentality of these women from the FSU? Imagine, this is their first glimpse of what life is like in the US and other western countries, and yes, every American has a swimming pool in their backyard. Decades of social isolation as lead to today's childlike fantasy veiw of the west, which will sooner or later have to be tempered by reality. Yet these women still possess the basic instict of their primal ancestors to seek out what they believe will be the most satisfactory mate, who will be a provider and protector and it is undestandable to some degree that they might associate material things with success, just as their western counterparts.

Were it only a matter of transversing the social, cultural, idealistic and basic nature of a woman, FSU/MOB dating and/ or finding a wife in earnest, would be comparatively easy, or at worst just a little more difficult than such a search in one's own backyard. Unfortunately, the scam artists had to also add one more obstacle to the mix. I hope my thoughts have been enough to bore you gentlemen sufficiently despite my notable?inadequacy in the use of eight syllable words during my dissertation. ??

PeopleS,
I just love your humour. If I didn't know better, I would have thought you english. You are truly in class with Mark Twain, W.C.Fields and Thorne Smith. Cit.: " ........to bore you gentlemen sufficiently despite my notable inadequacy in the use of eight syllable words during my dissertation......" In spite of their many shortcomings, FSU people have in general a fabulous sense of humour, and with your convoluted, chinese-box like talent for black humour, you will be a great success amongst the english speaking. I promise.

Yes, I remember this agency guy from one of the tracks here and I have seen others on other anti-scam sites. The feminist groups do exist, actually one of the most vicious was centered here in Sweden, and some years ago they went out with the message, that all the postulated scammers were only innocent victims of male-pig-chauvinistic-sexist abuse. I read something to the same effect in the english-edited newspaper maybe called "Ukrainian Times".

I hope, I will not be offensive, if I say that american men (present company excluded) often show signs of acute supply-panic concerning sex. Maybe this explains the sextourist's rudeness, which he mistakenly believe is straightforwardness, and the arrogance he believes is rugged individualism, John Wayne style. He will get the surprise of his life getting east the first time. Judging from the people I met in Sevastopol on my three months' stay there, the men are mentally like graceful panthers, being able to out"cool" the best discoteque-champion, and the small, very, very family-minded and chaste I-wil-love-you-forever women are oozing sex like a one-woman mobile bordello. The average american man will be measured, weighted, flayed and hooked in ten minutes.

I, being just a simpleminded countryside bumpkin, used to tumble the gals in haystacks (such as we scandinavians in our innocent and unsophisticated ways do), was fortunately never really involved in those games. On my part because I couldn't find any haystacks, on the female part probably because the remaining scandinavian straw in my hair distracted her. (Hope you give me some artistic license).

Concerning the entertaining industry, as on TV, I noticed that in spite of the VERY high level of education most of my girlfriends had, they would literally glue themselves to the box for hours, especially at soap-opera time. Slowly turning their brains into pink candyfloss, as I have mentioned elsewhere.

quote: They really believe, that everybody in the west has the famous swimmingpool etc.

about half of Italy's big cities in the south are LITERALLY BURIED IN UNCOLLECTED TRASH; the army was dispatched to solve the problem. Billions are poured over the parasitic south (America has Africans, Mexico has Indios, we have our share of pretty faces [xx(] of inbred African, albanian or middle eastern origin ): would YOU consider THAT optimal to live in?
Think the New Orleans scene and minority ghettos in the USA, minority ghettos in France (um...taking up half the city ) morphinginto war zone Liberia-style twice a year... would YOU consider THAT optimal to live in?
No, but TV trash fosters this candy image made of dr. Kildare, big brother voyeuristic and exhibitionistic shows, big cars, swimming pools and hand-picked parasitic minorities' "role models".
However, it is pathetically true that say East Germans or Albanians had this idea the west was "just like" the trash they watched on TV, ignoring western economies are collapsing and every gadget is bought by tens of monthly installments.
"Never try to impress a woman or
she'll always hold you to that standard."
-W.C. Fields

that is why most MOB relationships are doomed: she expects dr.Kildare or Bobby Ewing or Jarod Barclay rolling high or whatever dung they are televising where you are; instead, she gets poor old Barney who works as bank teller clerk, middle school teacher or operates a small burger joint staffed with three illegal aliens from Punjab wearing a turban.
True, he bragged a bit and told her he owned "several restaurants" and it's equally true during his fortnight vacation champagne at an expensive highfalutin eatery was common occurrence; he was indeed "rolling high", or so it seemed, for he had been scraping cents for three years and even withdrawn from his retirement account.
Barney knows that, but won't tell; he has to win the rat race with profiles next to him, belonging to Forbes magazine cover models, wall street kingpins, the guy who ransacked the emmy awards night, that bloke who won three oscars, another who performed the first allodermic anal graft from a rhesus monkey onto a homosexual farmer in Iowa and boy oh boy, it's nobel prize time...
[:0][)][xx(]
Natasha is in for a big surprise, all the more as her soap opera idols do not look affected by such minutiae as credit ratings, poor business, debt schemes...they always flash their flawless colgate smile towards the camera raising a toast with Cabernet 1956 or some such James Bond posh drink worth $500 the bottle.
Natasha herself got some dental problems and Barney will be called to foot the bills...in excess of ?6.000...Barney is overclocking already, for he spent ?20.000 to bring her here already...visas, language lessons, blahblah...
Natasha feels increasingly frustrated; not only Barney isn't Jarod Barclay rolling high, but seems a completely different person from the buoyant, affluent, carefree gentleman she met at a social...she can't understand why his hands are shaking while he reads the phone bill; true, she made a few long distance calls home and true, maybe a couple too many, but if a $300 phone bill is a problem, then Barney must be a loser.
As well, she wanted to start sur-le-champ a nice plastic arts degree at some brick&mortar fancy college, for her compatriot Nadia studies there (she married a 67yo businessman ) and told her about local hunks; yet Barney sweated cold reading the "fees" pages of said college.
When she maxed Barney's credit card out the third time, Barney threw a temper tantrum and started yelling at her in Tamil...he might be a dangerous sociopath, so she is spending more time with a hirsute woman working with the local battered women's shelter, who tells her she must protect herself now.
What's cooking, Barney?

every single word you are saying is true. But when it comes to having a gloomy, cynical and critical view of human life, I probably beat you with a few horselengths.

Are you familiar with the movie "Matrix"? In one scene the renegade computerprogram "agent Smith" compares humanity to a virus. An organism with so little survival skills, that it will die together with the host, it has parasited on. In spite of that agent Smith is supposed to be one of the bad guys, I wholeheartedly agree with his conclusions. It wouldn't be a great loss for the universe, if the human race made an end to itself, before it has killed its host.

The universe (if we can judge from our own surroundings) is probably predatory. And every time you believe, that you evolutionary have reached a safe harbour, you will find, that your competitors have evolved too. Back to the fight.

We have to a high degree "technologized" ourselves out of the need for basic, physical survival skills. But as we seem to agree, the psychological drive for reptile behaviour hasn't disappeared. Apart from the FSU obsession about being on the sunny side of the street, we will see the same syndrom expressed in the owners of multinational companies, political powergroups, religious organisations etc, only at an enormously expanded scale. And as Donovan once said: "How much can one man possibly need?"........ How many houses do you need? How much food can you eat? How many women can you bed? It's absurd, like an existential mental illness.

Sorry if I sound like a doomsday prophet with flaming eyes. I'm not. I'm only being circumstantial as usual. What I am trying to demonstrate is, that human society suffer from GREED, the twisted residue of reptile psychology. And where the physical reptile behaviour can be said to represent pure survival instincts, greed is an abomination.

I do not have the cosmic "snake oil" remedy for this collective madness of greed, only the hope that we will learn to use our other faculties, emotion and intellect, to counter the reptilemind, before it's to late. Not according to some higher ethical principles, but by being utilitarian. And that's inside the scope of every single individual.

But I do have an opinion about how to react to scammers. As PeopleS has said, he will go there with minimum expectations. He will go without "greed", this way he can't be hurt very much. We can not stop con-artists, they have existed always. But we can prepare ourselves to meet them.

The W.C. Fields sistuation is very useful. When I cyberdated, I always understated my situation.

quote:I just love your humour. If I didn't know better, I would have thought you english. You are truly in class with Mark Twain, W.C.Fields and Thorne Smith.

swede, you flatter me sir.

I think that part of the excessively excitable American male libido comes from a number of things. First you have the historic success story of the nation as a whole. In the two hundred plus years of existence, this country has produced some pretty remarkable people and invetions, not to slight our often questioned military might.

There is a competitiveness between American males that may be difficult for Europeans to comprehend. We feel a necessity to be the brightest and the best at everything. Name any subject, and there is an American somewhere who is working diligently to be the best at it.

This enthusiasm and simple desire to be the best, naturally spills over into the realm of sexual prowess. Let's take a step back to the discussion about instictive behaviors. Couple the instinct of all males to seek a mate, realizing that mating means having sex, with an overblown American, "we must be the best" attitude, and you have your answer.

As with anything, there will always be those who will take anything to the furthest boundaries, and often it is an American.

Now, not to bash my fellow countrymen too much, there are also many other nationalities who display such behavior. Italians are notorious for their sexual exploits, if not bragging about them. Sorry ham, but perhaps you can shed some light on this regarding your countrymen as I have tried to do with mine?

ham, all industrialized nations have their "less fortunate" areas. It's unavoidable, unless communism was to actually work in it's purest idealistic form as scribed by Lenin. There will always be the "haves" and the "have nots", regardless of race. And even within the subculture of "have nots", all of the things discussed apply on some level.

To risk venturing toward the low-brow once again to make a point, I ask if you guys are familiar with the TV show Star Trek? Amongst the sci-fi backdrop, many serious social issues were actually plot subjects, but weren't realized as such because of the shows genre.

The first interacial kiss ever televised in the US, was when Capt. Kirk, a white man, kissed Lt. Uhura, a black woman. Granted, it was under alien influence, but it happened. Predudice... a man who was black on the right and white on the left, hated a man because he was black on the left. Poverty, injustice, the list of socio-economic issues this program covered between the fluff goes on and on, not to mention the technological aspect of the show. They had flip-phones, desk top computers, when computers were big enough to fill a small home, no poverty, and yet, the hero was a womanizer!!!

You simply can't run from the human genome!

quote:Are you familiar with the movie "Matrix"? In one scene the renegade computerprogram "agent Smith" compares humanity to a virus. An organism with so little survival skills, that it will die together with the host, it has parasited on. In spite of that agent Smith is supposed to be one of the bad guys, I wholeheartedly agree with his conclusions. It wouldn't be a great loss for the universe, if the human race made an end to itself, before it has killed its host.

swede, the thing here is the human desire to survive. Whether we kill ourselves is a matter of whether we stop thinking about ourselves, but our great-great grand children ten times over. We can't kill the planet. It's a big rock spinning around a bigger flaming ball of gas. It doesn't care what we do, because after mankind has polluted and plundered this world, it will keep on circling that flaming ball of gas without us. Would the loss of mankind be a great loss? Only a future that neither of us will see can answer that question, but I like to believe that mankind has it's place in the future.

On a lighter side, I also agree to never try to impress a woman. I usually try to let her see me unshaven and in my work clothes within the first month! If she sticks around... alrighty then!!!

I knew it. If someone just dared the first step out of the general caveman-grunting usually going for communication, the bright people would soon turn up. I know it is very politically un-correct thinking, the elitist idea that just because you have an IQ about 130 and the other guy 80, you are more intelligent than he is. But the 130 guy IS more intelligent, no matter what the equal opportunity freaks say. I must hasten to add, that being intelligent doesn't give anybody any special rights. Just as being pretty, goodhearted, practical or whatsoever doesn't. It simply means, that you are good at a certain kind of job or activity. (This is why I created this little corner, where we can drink whisky, smoke cigars and be wise).

The idea, that women and men are different, also doesn't mean that one or the other of the two species are "better" or "worse" than the other. Not until we find common ground for communication, finding something basic both parts believe is correct and start from there, can we really meet each other. And with the growing amount of junk being thrown around (from low-grade gadgets breaking down the day after the garantee runs out, to snake oils, soap operas and new-age ideas about how to change your life overnight), the brainwashing is steadily expanding. Making communication increasingly more difficult.

I believe, that the main parameter for dating (cyber or not) is the ability to communicate. Even with the most attractive lady in the world, sex would be quite uninteresting, if she behaved like a super de lux inflatable plastic doll (and a real plastic doll would be so much cheaper). Sex is THE most intensive communicationform known at the physical level. A woman unable to communicate is a valueless partner.

PeopleS, you gave a very good description of the american alpha male mentality. Correctly assuming, that we europeans sometimes have troubles understanding it.
Remember the Clinton/Lewinsky "scandal", close to bringing panic at the stockmarket. The russian president just laughed about the affair and said: "So what". It demonstrates the difference in especially american and russian thinking.

When I discovered, that my UA "fiance?" was a pro-dater, I offered her a choice. I said, that if she would admit to lying and cheating (not in writing ofcourse, just
over the phone, this not being legally binding), I would leave her in peace and forget about it. She simply couldn't make herself to do this, thereby risking my wrath, and the possible consequences it would have on her life. She had probably convinced herself, that she "hadn't done anything". The lying had turned inwards. The average american overgrown boyscout, with all his "medals" for good american behaviour, would have problems adjusting to this.

Being a sci-fi and fantasy fan I'm familiar with Star Trek, though not deeply. As with many other films a lot of ideologies, propaganda and/or information is sneaked into
them. Not mentioning the subliminal manipulation. But your example of prejudice is good, and examplifies my thesis, that the change necessary for real communication, must come as much from the "inside" of a person as from the outside. The willingness to understand, that YOUR personal worldwiev and "language" isn't the only one.
"Four legs good, two legs bad" syndrom (Georg Orwell: Animal farm). This isn't wishy-washy "all opinions are right", it just means that some prejudices are so much
bosh. It means that going blindly on your own tracks won't lead you anywhere.

Ofcourse I want the human dilemma to end happily. I won't be standing around at Harmageddon and say: "See what I told you" with glee.