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As far as hate crimes, if you are suggesting that hate as a motivation be introduced as an aggravating factor in sentencing, I am not opposed to that. I am frightened by proposed legislation that seems aimed at making the expression of an offensive point of view by itself a crime or used to magnify an otherwise mudane offense into a capital crime. I can see where abuses could result.[/b]

Agreed. Completely and totally.

And, JBryan, this scares me that we are agreeing so much! What is wrong with me? I must be slipping! LOL!!!

For instance, is murder a crime or not? In my state we execute people for murder. Shall we kill them twice just because the perpetrator commited a crime against a certain select group of people? A crime is a crime is a crime and should be prosecuted no matter what or who the victim is.

Do you want justice, or does the mob just want an extra pound of flesh?

On another note - Do any of you actually hire and fire people? Or is this just so much hot air and posturing? You CAN'T fire someone just because he is gay. You can be compelled by law to furnish proof of why you would not hire a qualified gay job applicant. Just because someone is homosexual, does not mean that all discrimination laws do not apply to them. They have rights - the same rights as any other American.

Do you propose creating another "special" group of Americans to satisfy a vocal minority of the population? Do the words Balkanization mean anything to anybody?

Derick
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York

Oh yes you can fire someone just for being gay.

Choose a career in the military and you are found out, goodbye. Any NYS employee can be fired JUST because they are gay.

I own a condo that I rent out. If I wanted to, I absolutely could refuse to rent to someone because they were gay.

FYI... I just did a quick search on NYS, gay and discrimination and came across this:

"Currently, it is perfectly legal in New York State to be fired from your job, evicted from your apartment, refused service in a restaurant, or denied a home loan simply because you are gay or perceived to be gay. The Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act would remedy this by amending the already-existing state human rights laws to include sexual orientation. The law already protects against discrimination on the basis of race, religion, sex, and marital status for employment, housing, public accomodations, education, and credit."

Derick

_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

i must say that i find it very gratifying that we are (with a couple of exceptions) finding unusual common ground on this topic. this is an issue that means a great deal to me personally and it might actually be just too hard for me to hang out with a bunch of known gay-bashers, so i am glad it turns out that most of us are pretty tolerant folks.

thanks for the dr. laura excerpt. i'd seen it before, but it fit perfectly here, and i'm glad someone sought to address the ludicrous "word of the bible" thing with some humor. i had to stop myself from writing something i might regret and i'm glad others stepped in with a lighter tone.

George and Derrik, et. al. you've all said everything so well, and I second pique's sentiment of thanks that you did so with humor and a level head. I wanted to respond last evening but knew myself well enough to wait at least a day.

From lb:

Quote:

It is a choice, everything in life is a choice.

Quote:

I do not believe in glamorizing and legitimizing a sexual practice that has been abhored by every society and religion since the begining of time.

Am I correct in presuming the next time you have hiccups you'll realize the sillyness of it and choose to stop immediately. And, then I suggest you ask a person suffering with OCD how much choice he/she has over their behavior, or someone with turrets syndrone. There are lot's of things in life that are not choices.

Actually, some Native Americans (I wouldn't be surprised if there were others) considered homosexuality to be a gift from god.

_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

I've got 32 folks I make the schedule and sign the payroll for. I have one that spends his leisure time as a drag queen. What he does on his time is his business. However, if his lifestyle or sexual preference, impinges on his ability to do his job, yes, he will be canned. For performance issues and no others.

I wish I had U.S. and State Labor Law in front of me right now to quote from, but I'll bet my next paycheck that if I did have to fire this person, it could not be on the grounds of sexual preference.

Yes, the military is different. Anything, and I mean anything that adversely effects unit cohesion, and the ability to kill the enemy cannot be tolerated. But that, folks is another thread.

Derick
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York

Jolly,

I am not involved in the hiring or firing of anyone. Nevertheless, as I said before, it is perfectly legal to fire someone for being gay in many states/areas of the US. Your state being one of them. In fact, your state had such a prohibition in effect until 1996 when it expired and was not renewed. New Orleans, however, is much more tolerant than the rest of the state.

The states where you cannot use someone's sexual orientation as grounds for firing are:

Originally posted by Jolly:My original question stands. Who hires and fires?

I've got 32 folks I make the schedule and sign the payroll for. I have one that spends his leisure time as a drag queen. [/b]

If this is all you know about his private erotic life, then you probably cannot fire him for being gay because he is probably straight. Most cross dressers are. As are most pedophiles, most pornographers and pornographic actors/actresses, and most practitioners of beastiality and sado-masochism.

This fact is finally being recognized. The straight agenda is finally being seen for what it is -- a perniciously subtle but thorough campaign to lead our children into sexual depravity.

Don't let all those nice pictures in text books, shows on TV, movies and all the other ways the straights inundate our children fool you. These images and fantasies are just the hook they use to fool our children, just the smoke screen for the real straight agenda, which is to lead our children into all sorts of sexual perversion. They are leading our children directly into the arms of Satan himself so they will burn for all eternity in everlasting fire!

Can one even doubt that the current droughts in this country, the earthquakes (now even in the northeast!), the current war and the way America is being treated around the world are only the warning signs that God's righteous anger is overflowing upon America for allowing the straight agenda to so permeate our society. Can any true believer not see that He has decided to smite this country for allowing such peversions brought on by the straight perpetrators of evil!

Isn't it time America rejects the perversions and sin of the straight agenda and go back to the roots of western thought and morality -- the ancient Greeks who recognized that male/male love was the purest and highest form of love and that heterosexual sex (certainly one can't call it love!) is simply needed to create children?!

America! Turn away from sin! See the straight agenda for what it is! Turn back to God! Oust these evil straights and send them back into the hell holes where they belong!

Your last post stumped me. I am not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. BTW, good job everyone. Jolly, I do hire and fire people, and i know for sure that it is possible to fire ANYONE, for WHATEVER reason. There many ways it can be done.

Of course, but that does not prove anything other than the latter is ludicrous. The former will have to stand on its own merit. One could replace the word 'murder' with 'mercy' and end up with ludicrous statements about mercy that may be exactly correct about murder. (I'm only commenting about the logic/semantics of the argument. I am not making any statement about gay versus straight or equating gay with murder.)

_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Derick
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York

lb,

First of all, I'm not overweight and you'd have to roll up my sleeve almost to my shoulder to see my tattoo; I'm assuming you probably don't do that during job interviews. My beard is neatly trimmed as is my hair. My appearance has never been an issue with any company I have interviewed with. If anything, I am criticized for being "too appearance conscious".

I would never be opinionated on an interview, I wait until after I get hired to smack people around.

So 'recently' you hired two gay people, but their sexual preference wasn't a factor. If that is the case, then how do you know they are gay? Did they make an announcement?

Actually, I don't care. The point is you COULD have NOT hired them because they were gay. Just because you hired them, knowing it or not, doesn't mean that everyone would have.

Derick

_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

Where is your unbiased journalism here. I haven't seen anyone here bashing homosexuals. If you want to start name calling I,m up to the task.

lb

jeez, can't a scribe ever get a day off around here? sheesh!

ib, did you miss the discussion about how there is no such thing as unbiased journalism?

how's this for an illustration:

Quote:

I do not believe in any process legal or not that promotes or legitimizes homosexuality. It is morally wrong. No one is perfect, every human has some quirk in their nature that gives them the propensity to do something that is morally wrong. The free will that separates man from animals, allows them the choice to either suppress this quirk, or to succumb to it.

I have never had the hiccups, so I can't answer that. If you have a different analogy to fit your opinion I would be glad to hear it. From what I understand though hiccups are caused from eating or drinking something the wrong way. Since the manner of your eating or drinking is a choice, and if you are afflicted with it, I would find out the proper way to avoid them and choose that method.

I have never heard of homophobia referred to as a gift from God before, and from the discussion here I don't think that anyone would consider it a gift.

You do make a good point though. I agree that homophobia, as well as OCD and Turrets Syndrome come from God. I stated this before in my first post. I know and have worked with several people afflicted with OCD. OCD manifests itself in many ways, some of them would be repulsive in public. One man I know has the urge to expose himself in public. This harms no one, right, everyone has seen it before. Wrong, this behavior is not acceptable to society, even if it is caused by an affliction. Although everyone I know is dealing with OCD, it is a tough everyday battle, but they are choosing to deal with it.

Homophobia is a terrible affliction, and has to be dealt with, but on a personal level not legislated.

This has been the most civil thread on a controversial subject that I have ever seen. Except for your attitude everyone has addressed each other in a most courteous manner.

I have never discriminated against homosexuality in any manner in my life. I, as well as everyone else here, have expressed their opinions in a very reasonable manner. You are the first one here to degrade to the point of vicious labeling.

I would suggest some strong personal analysis in the least, professional at best.