I've reread the posts and can get what KL is getting at - finally - and I probably agree with him (I think).

However, KL is usually such a sensible (if not a bit irritable) chap and I can usually understand what he says first try, but from the block of text, referring to random climbs, climb names and climbers, in a random order, followed by an apology for not having the real photos, followed by a theory as to where the real photos might be found, followed by a conclusion that is based on a bunch of bum shots with little relation (admitted by KL) to the original post, I am beginning to think that KL is:

A: beginning to experiment with smoking crack (I'm not suggesting you can't afford better class drugs KL so please don't take offence - a minutes silence for Whitney, who leaves this world a less f---ed up place than whilst she was here)

B: reading Ulysses in his book club (although there is a bit too much punctuation for this to be a credible theory)

Well I pulled out my VCC Buffalo guide and it has Spaceman Spiff finishing as for Dead Heart. I'm certainly not saying that's correct given Kieran's knowledge of the rock in question. However if Joe was working off the guidebook then basically everything from the middle to the top of the climb would be new.

As for the climb itself, I had a look at The Crag where TINOL is 20 and two stars. If that's true I'd accept 18 and borderline one star for TDAID, however in my personal opinion, 17 and no stars, but worthwhile.

On 15/02/2012 pecheur wrote:>Well I pulled out my VCC Buffalo guide and it has Spaceman Spiff finishing>as for Dead Heart. I'm certainly not saying that's correct given Kieran's>knowledge of the rock in question. However if Joe was working off the>guidebook then basically everything from the middle to the top of the climb>would be new.>
Presumably that's the most recent Buffalo guide, which I haven't got around to buying because I haven't been to Buffalo for years. It's incorrect. The writeup in the Boreham/Brereton guide is a bit vague and doesn't actually describe Spaceman Spiff in relation to Dead Heart but Buffalo Soldier is the one that finishes up Dead Heart. Joe did do a lot of work on the Buffalo guide so if he was then working from it and it's wrong then it's all a bit self-referential.

On 15/02/2012 bomber pro wrote:>I've reread the posts and can get what KL is getting at - finally - and>I probably agree with him (I think). >>However, KL is usually such a sensible (if not a bit irritable) chap and>I can usually understand what he says first try, but from the block of>text, referring to random climbs, climb names and climbers, in a random>order, followed by an apology for not having the real photos, followed>by a theory as to where the real photos might be found, followed by a conclusion>that is based on a bunch of bum shots with little relation (admitted by>KL) to the original post, I am beginning to think that KL is:>>A: beginning to experiment with smoking crack (I'm not suggesting you>can't afford better class drugs KL so please don't take offence - a minutes>silence for Whitney, who leaves this world a less f---ed up place than>whilst she was here)>>B: reading Ulysses in his book club (although there is a bit too much>punctuation for this to be a credible theory)>>C: had his username hijacked by Bomber Pro>>In any case there is someone calling out for some intervention.

Now I'm confused. Not a particularly Useful post.
I read Ulysses on the night train from Picton when I was 20 and less-impressionable. Didn't really understand all that Sinbad the Sailor stuff until I visited the Joyce Museum in Dublin last year. Darkinbad The Brightdayler is still one of the coolest climb names around.

>Now I'm confused. Not a particularly Useful post.>I read Ulysses on the night train from Picton when I was 20 and less-impressionable.>Didn't really understand all that Sinbad the Sailor stuff until I visited>the Joyce Museum in Dublin last year. Darkinbad The Brightdayler is still>one of the coolest climb names around.

Is that the picton to christchurch train with the open air carriage where u can smoke it up and go deaf at the same time?

On 15/02/2012 kieranl wrote:>On 15/02/2012 pecheur wrote:>>Well I pulled out my VCC Buffalo guide and it has Spaceman Spiff finishing>>as for Dead Heart. I'm certainly not saying that's correct given Kieran's>>knowledge of the rock in question. However if Joe was working off the>>guidebook then basically everything from the middle to the top of the>>climb would be new.>>>Presumably that's the most recent Buffalo guide, which I haven't got around>to buying because I haven't been to Buffalo for years. It's incorrect.>The writeup in the Boreham/Brereton guide is a bit vague and doesn't actually>describe Spaceman Spiff in relation to Dead Heart but Buffalo Soldier is>the one that finishes up Dead Heart. Joe did do a lot of work on the Buffalo>guide so if he was then working from it and it's wrong then it's all a>bit self-referential.

The write ups for Buffalo Soldier, Spaceman Spiff, The Dead Heart and This Is Not Our Land are esentially the same in the Lindorff/Murray as in the Boreham/Brereton guide:

Spaceman Spiff
old+new> Starts 2m R of This Is Not Our Land on a short diagonal flake. Straight up the wall to a R facing flake then step R to finish up the shallow groove.

The Dead Heart
old> Take wires,TCUs, slings, a #2 Friend and a double sling. Start 1/2m R of This Is Not Our Land. Climb the face moving diagonally R across the middle of the face to finish up the short crack near the R end of the face.
new> Take wires, small and medium cams and a double sling. Start 0.5 m R of This Is Not Our Land. Climb the face moving diagonally R across the middle of the face to finish up the short crack near the R end of the face.

kieranl, you say the Boreham/Brereton guide is a bit vague, does that mean there was once a better description, or was the first ascentionist vague?

If SS had said "The R side of the dyke" (as TINOL says "The L side of the dyke") there wouldn't be a problem...

The difference is the new guide has a topo, and who ever drew SS (Simon?) thought "Straight up the wall to a R facing flake" was to a R facing flake out on the wall, not the right side of the dyke as you seem to suggest it goes. So the line goes staright up to that. The text also doesn't mention that SS and DH must meet and cross somewhere, so the topo lines don't cross, just meet up above the R facing flake. (The line for DH looks correct, judging by kieranl's photos.)
The topo lines match the text, and leave plenty of room for a "new" route.
Lesson, if you do a new route, don't be vague.

I didn't put up Spaceman Spiff so it's not my write-up. Looks like the guide-book editors of both guides have pretty much just copied the original writeups.
Anyway, that explains why people thought there was a bit of a gap there, at least in the upper part.

On 16/02/2012 kieranl wrote:>On 15/02/2012 shortman wrote:>>>Is that the picton to christchurch train with the open air carriage where>>u can smoke it up and go deaf at the same time?>It was Picton - ChCh but don't know about the open air carriage.

It's been running for the last 15 yrs or so. Makes lookin at the seals easier when the train travels the coast section. But mainly it's just full of islanders gettin high. The only way to fly to CC!

On 16/02/2012 shortman wrote:>On 16/02/2012 kieranl wrote:>>On 15/02/2012 shortman wrote:>>>>>Is that the picton to christchurch train with the open air carriage>where>>>u can smoke it up and go deaf at the same time?>>It was Picton - ChCh but don't know about the open air carriage.>>It's been running for the last 15 yrs or so. Makes lookin at the seals>easier when the train travels the coast section. But mainly it's just full>of islanders gettin high. The only way to fly to CC!
My trip was in 1976. Probably didn't have the open-air option.

Every single variation between the arete on the RHS and This is Not our Land has been done a million times before and all should be simply classified as 'The Dead Heart'...if anyone cares, we did that left hand variant about 15 years ago and I'm sure others had done it before and after us...

I might have missed something here but are we now calling 4-5 metres of previously unwritten climbing in between and amongst some reasonable good routes a "new route"?
If so may I tell you about this amazing new route on tiger wall at Araps, I have decided to call it "surfing the syrinx". Its on what I call pitch 3 but it might be written up as pitch 4or 5 in the latest guidebook and instead of ......... You get my point??? no one cares either way. I cant believe you have stolen 10 minutes of my life.

On 22/02/2012 nmonteith wrote:>I think the main problem is the six shiny new bolts right next to an established>all trad route. And on a wall where other bolted routes have contained>only 3 or 4 bolts.

On 22/02/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 22/02/2012 nmonteith wrote:>>I think the main problem is the six shiny new bolts right next to an>established>>all trad route. And on a wall where other bolted routes have contained>>only 3 or 4 bolts.>>... yes, but until now it only took 34 posts to out the issue?

You had a cheap shot at post 20 ;)

Okay how about something more controversial, I think TINOL is very committing with three bolts and at least two climbers I talked to there on the days wouldn't do it because it only had three bolts ...

>>at least two climbers I talked to there on the days wouldn't do it because>it only had three bolts ... >>That is the choice some may make as compared to others who make other>choices in their climbing?>
It's true, and I'm all for running stuff out on solid rock (which TINOL definitely is), but I also accept that others are not so keen on it. In TINOL's case I thought that there were a couple of places that you could place a small cam which would have made it less commiting.

I do suspect if a route like that was at say Araps a bolt (or two) would have been added by now, at Buffalo it's within the "style" of the area.

TINOL definitely has a couple of places where you wouldn't want to fall off, but the handholds are generally good where it's run-out and the bolts are in the right spots (although I'd argue the last bolt could be a bit higher).

I think the first time I did it I may have put a sling around a knob but last time didn't bother.

In general I prefer to have two pieces between me and the ground, even if they're bolts. TINOL definitely doesn't satisfy that criteria, but it's hardly a sandbag - you can see what you're in for before you leave the ground.

I have to say, I didn't notice Joe's route when I was there. If I had I might have done it. Maybe those carrots aren't so intrusive?
I always wondered about Buffalo Soldier but the gear didn't look so good.

On 23/02/2012 gfdonc wrote:>>I have to say, I didn't notice Joe's route when I was there. If I had>I might have done it. Maybe those carrots aren't so intrusive? >I always wondered about Buffalo Soldier but the gear didn't look so good.>
Weren't you up over new year Steve? Joe's route went up Australia Day. The carrots are easy to see on the climb itself. I've become a carrot convert simply because in place like Buffalo they aren't that easy to see, keeping climbers in the good books with the other users.