We have all observed a variety of schools of thought regarding the religion of Islam on DDO from individuals who practice an Islamic faith.

According to WikiIslam, Apostasy (irtidad and ridda) i.e. the rejection of faith, is a serious offense in Islam. The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Prophet Muhammad is death. A murtad (apostate) who hides his apostasy is referred to as a munafiq (hypocrite).

At 5/15/2014 6:09:59 PM, SemperVI wrote:We have all observed a variety of schools of thought regarding the religion of Islam on DDO from individuals who practice an Islamic faith.

According to WikiIslam, Apostasy (irtidad and ridda) i.e. the rejection of faith, is a serious offense in Islam. The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Prophet Muhammad is death. A murtad (apostate) who hides his apostasy is referred to as a munafiq (hypocrite).

Question: According to your understanding of Islam, what - if any is an appropriate punishment for apostasy in Islam?

Response: There is no punishment for apostasy in Islam. For there is nothing in the Qur'an or sunnah that supports so. In Islam, an apostate is killed because they waged war or conspired to war with Muslims. Not just because they changed their religion.

At 5/15/2014 6:34:43 PM, HPWKA wrote:Looking at the Quran, there doesn't seem to be any scriptural requirement for the execution/abuse of one who leaves Islam.

Islamic jurisdiction on Apostasy is derived from the words of Muhammad and the aforementioned actions of the Caliph and other companions. If rejecting one of the pillars of Islam is considered to be a crime warranting war against such people, it is only logical for the prescribed punishment for apostasy in Islam to be death. Imam Abu Hanifa"s prescript as seen in Al-Shybani's Kitab al-Siyar grants the apostate a stipulated period (no more than a couple of days) to revert back to Islam or face the death penalty. All four schools of Islamic jurisprudence are in agreement with this ruling, with only slight variations on whether to allow the grace period.(*) The Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence believe female apostates are an exception to the rule and are not to be killed, but beaten and put under confinement until death or repentance, while the remaining Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools all agree the verdict for the female apostate is the same as for the male

* Abul Ala Maududi - The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law - Islamic Publications Ltd., Lahore, 1963

Please understand, I am only trying to understand why, if the death penalty is prohibited in the Quran for apostacy, why do so many followers of the faith including government and the mosques support the death penalty for this offense?

This point is further emphasized by the persecution and murder of former Muslims which even now has become evident in many non-Muslim societies. For example, in 2007 the daughter of a British Imam was taken under police protection after receiving death threats from her father (a leader of a mosque in Lancashire) for converting to Christianity. I guess my question is, Is apostasy an offense against Islam, if it is - what is an appropriate punishment in your view?

At 5/15/2014 6:34:43 PM, HPWKA wrote:Looking at the Quran, there doesn't seem to be any scriptural requirement for the execution/abuse of one who leaves Islam.

Islamic jurisdiction on Apostasy is derived from the words of Muhammad and the aforementioned actions of the Caliph and other companions. If rejecting one of the pillars of Islam is considered to be a crime warranting war against such people, it is only logical for the prescribed punishment for apostasy in Islam to be death. Imam Abu Hanifa"s prescript as seen in Al-Shybani's Kitab al-Siyar grants the apostate a stipulated period (no more than a couple of days) to revert back to Islam or face the death penalty. All four schools of Islamic jurisprudence are in agreement with this ruling, with only slight variations on whether to allow the grace period.(*) The Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence believe female apostates are an exception to the rule and are not to be killed, but beaten and put under confinement until death or repentance, while the remaining Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools all agree the verdict for the female apostate is the same as for the male

* Abul Ala Maududi - The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law - Islamic Publications Ltd., Lahore, 1963

Please understand, I am only trying to understand why, if the death penalty is prohibited in the Quran for apostacy, why do so many followers of the faith including government and the mosques support the death penalty for this offense?

This point is further emphasized by the persecution and murder of former Muslims which even now has become evident in many non-Muslim societies. For example, in 2007 the daughter of a British Imam was taken under police protection after receiving death threats from her father (a leader of a mosque in Lancashire) for converting to Christianity. I guess my question is, Is apostasy an offense against Islam, if it is - what is an appropriate punishment in your view?

Apostasy isn't an offense in Islam, but it is considered one by the majority of the Muslims (as you pointed out).

The only punishment for apostasy mentioned in the Quran, is to "un-follow" or "un-friend" the apostate.

Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.

At 5/15/2014 6:09:59 PM, SemperVI wrote:We have all observed a variety of schools of thought regarding the religion of Islam on DDO from individuals who practice an Islamic faith.

According to WikiIslam, Apostasy (irtidad and ridda) i.e. the rejection of faith, is a serious offense in Islam. The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Prophet Muhammad is death. A murtad (apostate) who hides his apostasy is referred to as a munafiq (hypocrite).

Question: According to your understanding of Islam, what - if any is an appropriate punishment for apostasy in Islam?

Response: There is no punishment for apostasy in Islam. For there is nothing in the Qur'an or sunnah that supports so. In Islam, an apostate is killed because they waged war or conspired to war with Muslims. Not just because they changed their religion.

Response: For almost 1,400 years, the punishment for apostasy has been death. Only recently has this been challenged, mainly by a few apologists from among the tiny 3% of the world's Muslims living in "more-developed regions". A Pew poll released on December 2, 2010, found that even today "The majority of Muslims would favor changing current laws in their countries to "allow stoning as punishment for adultery, hand amputation for theft, and death for those who convert from Islam as their religion".

A 2010 poll found that 76% of Pakistanis agree apostates are to be killed. In a country with a population of 172,800,000 (96% of whom are Muslim) that would be 126,074,880 individuals in a single country. Conversely only a mere 13% of Muslims opposed killing apostates. If we are to assume the position that, Muslims who espouse such views are extremists who misunderstand the teachings of Islam, how can one not concede the fact that the majority of Muslims in Pakistan are not simply a fringe group of extremists.

More to the point, former Muslims are often persecuted, abused and killed by Muslims. This treatment of apostates is not simply down to the issue of state-enforced religion as some may suggest. The violence or threats of violence against apostates in the Muslim world usually derives, not from government authorities, but from family members and individuals from the Islamic communities themselves, who operate very often with impunity from the government.

Do you believe Islam is in need of fundamental and drastic social reform as it pertains to religious freedom?

Response: For almost 1,400 years, the punishment for apostasy has been death. Only recently has this been challenged, mainly by a few apologists from among the tiny 3% of the world's Muslims living in "more-developed regions". A Pew poll released on December 2, 2010, found that even today "The majority of Muslims would favor changing current laws in their countries to "allow stoning as punishment for adultery, hand amputation for theft, and death for those who convert from Islam as their religion".

A 2010 poll found that 76% of Pakistanis agree apostates are to be killed. In a country with a population of 172,800,000 (96% of whom are Muslim) that would be 126,074,880 individuals in a single country. Conversely only a mere 13% of Muslims opposed killing apostates. If we are to assume the position that, Muslims who espouse such views are extremists who misunderstand the teachings of Islam, how can one not concede the fact that the majority of Muslims in Pakistan are not simply a fringe group of extremists.

More to the point, former Muslims are often persecuted, abused and killed by Muslims. This treatment of apostates is not simply down to the issue of state-enforced religion as some may suggest. The violence or threats of violence against apostates in the Muslim world usually derives, not from government authorities, but from family members and individuals from the Islamic communities themselves, who operate very often with impunity from the government.

Do you believe Islam is in need of fundamental and drastic social reform as it pertains to religious freedom?

Response: A pew poll is not Islam. History and what occurred in it is not Islam. Government is not Islam. Islam is the Qur'an and sunnah. And there is nothing in either that says for someone to be killed just because they left Islam.

Islam is perfect as it is. There is no need for reformation. There is a need for people to return to the Qur'an and sunnah.

Response: For almost 1,400 years, the punishment for apostasy has been death. Only recently has this been challenged, mainly by a few apologists from among the tiny 3% of the world's Muslims living in "more-developed regions". A Pew poll released on December 2, 2010, found that even today "The majority of Muslims would favor changing current laws in their countries to "allow stoning as punishment for adultery, hand amputation for theft, and death for those who convert from Islam as their religion".

A 2010 poll found that 76% of Pakistanis agree apostates are to be killed. In a country with a population of 172,800,000 (96% of whom are Muslim) that would be 126,074,880 individuals in a single country. Conversely only a mere 13% of Muslims opposed killing apostates. If we are to assume the position that, Muslims who espouse such views are extremists who misunderstand the teachings of Islam, how can one not concede the fact that the majority of Muslims in Pakistan are not simply a fringe group of extremists.

More to the point, former Muslims are often persecuted, abused and killed by Muslims. This treatment of apostates is not simply down to the issue of state-enforced religion as some may suggest. The violence or threats of violence against apostates in the Muslim world usually derives, not from government authorities, but from family members and individuals from the Islamic communities themselves, who operate very often with impunity from the government.

Do you believe Islam is in need of fundamental and drastic social reform as it pertains to religious freedom?

Response: A pew poll is not Islam. History and what occurred in it is not Islam. Government is not Islam. Islam is the Qur'an and sunnah. And there is nothing in either that says for someone to be killed just because they left Islam.

Islam is perfect as it is. There is no need for reformation. There is a need for people to return to the Qur'an and sunnah.

That sounds like reformation.

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw

Do you believe Islam is in need of fundamental and drastic social reform as it pertains to religious freedom?

Response: A pew poll is not Islam. History and what occurred in it is not Islam. Government is not Islam. Islam is the Qur'an and sunnah. And there is nothing in either that says for someone to be killed just because they left Islam.

Islam is perfect as it is. There is no need for reformation. There is a need for people to return to the Qur'an and sunnah.

One more question if you please. If the history of Islam is not Islam - what does this history represent? More to the point, if Islam is not an account of history - what is Islam an account of?

One more question if you please. If the history of Islam is not Islam - what does this history represent? More to the point, if Islam is not an account of history - what is Islam an account of?

Response: The history of Islam is Islam. But everything in history that says it's Islamic, but is not according o Islamic teachings, is not Islam. It is the history of Muslim civilizations and their interpretation of Islam. Within that history, there are some who have applied Islam correctly, while there are others who have not. So it is not befitting to call all of it Islamic history, because some practices are not Islamic. Apostasy, in which a person is killed simply because they left the religion, is one of those practices, which is not Islamic. But it is a practice that has been wrongfully practiced by Muslims.

I'm sorry but I don't think you quite understood...For example, the Prophet pbuh said that women should cover their body so that FACE and HAND still are uncovered - though there is no compulsion in religion, as said in the Quran. Still people think that burqa is islaamic, when it is part of Afghanistan's tradition and culture. If a man wants to enslave and control women by forcing them to wear burqa, this doesn't mean Islaam supports this!

Same for apostasy... if the punishment for apostasy is death ONLY and only if they betray the Islaamic state/government, or fight against the muslim community, and become active to damage the Ummah widely, BUT people in Pakistan (which is a mix of traditions/culture and islaam...) do, then it's the Pakistan government's fault. Not islaam's.

Also it is known that when two criminals went to the Prophet and cobfessed, the Prpphet turned away pretending not to listen, but they still wanted to be punished (don't remember the reason why, though). He gave them a chance to rrpent, to promise not to do that anymore, to let them go and be free maybe even in another land if they wanted... But still they wanted to be punished. Even if Muhammad didnt want to...

In fact apostayltes must have the chance to repent; to ask a shaykh if they have doubts; to simply go away or in hesiliation; and finally to revert. In a hadith Abu Bakr stated, it's not like we're gonna enter your house and kill any apostate.. So as long as you don't damage us we won't kill you, even if you're an apostate. Sorry for my bad english.

I am not muslim but I can say I am familiar with Islam and muslims. I still live with muslims, in muslim society. My muslim environment knows that I am not muslim, sometimes I discuss with them, I am not apostate but they never made any ostracism or racism against me. What do I wanna mean? So many people are being lied by media and people. dont trust on them.

Islam is not as bad as shown by media. I dont think death for apostasy is supported by Islam, I read quran and somewhere in the quran, quran explicitly gives religous freedom.

It says something like: "let there be NO compulsion in religion"

some will say there are hadiths which commands to kill, in islamic view, if hadith contradicts the quran in ANY way, then that is to be not taken seriously, if one hadith violates the freedom of religion and belief, then it means it contradicts the quran.

"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer

Truth is, some scholar's opinion may differ from another one's, but Islam is only one. Quran does not support death for apostates, it supports religion freedom. Though ahadith show that the Prophet pbuh said apostates were to be killed, but only in certain and specific cases, like: a traitor, someone who wants to damage or destroy Islaam orthe government, etc. Though they are given many possibilities to repent, contract, or revert, or go away from the state. So an apostate is killed when it clearly damages islaam, phisically for example, and proclaims his apostasy... And any doubt will be in favor of the apostate, which means, if he doesnt confess, or if there are not enough people (generally four) who saw or heard him proclaiming so, then he is not considered an apostate.

This, specifically, is why I despise religion (all of it). Only religion could bring about capital punishment for that which harms no one. There may or may not be a god. However, allowing human beings to dictate the parameters of definition for that god, let alone edict necessary behavior, is a danger to all of humanity. This is precisely the reason that atheists and agnostics have begun to unite and organize. This type of zealotry needs to be stamped out. Religion must be removed from all legislation and education. Period.

Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.

At 5/16/2014 6:34:12 AM, seeking-knowledge wrote:Truth is, some scholar's opinion may differ from another one's, but Islam is only one. Quran does not support death for apostates, it supports religion freedom. Though ahadith show that the Prophet pbuh said apostates were to be killed, but only in certain and specific cases, like: a traitor, someone who wants to damage or destroy Islaam orthe government, etc. Though they are given many possibilities to repent, contract, or revert, or go away from the state. So an apostate is killed when it clearly damages islaam, phisically for example, and proclaims his apostasy... And any doubt will be in favor of the apostate, which means, if he doesnt confess, or if there are not enough people (generally four) who saw or heard him proclaiming so, then he is not considered an apostate.

The underlined contradicts what you said before it.How can proclaiming disbelief in your religion threaten or damage your religion?

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw

One more question if you please. If the history of Islam is not Islam - what does this history represent? More to the point, if Islam is not an account of history - what is Islam an account of?

Response: The history of Islam is Islam. But everything in history that says it's Islamic, but is not according o Islamic teachings, is not Islam. It is the history of Muslim civilizations and their interpretation of Islam. Within that history, there are some who have applied Islam correctly, while there are others who have not. So it is not befitting to call all of it Islamic history, because some practices are not Islamic. Apostasy, in which a person is killed simply because they left the religion, is one of those practices, which is not Islamic. But it is a practice that has been wrongfully practiced by Muslims.

I see your point here entirely, but at the same time, I feel like because of vast amount of apparent non-Islamic things taking place in most Islamic nations, reformation should be a priority with in the Islamic faith. On a side note, Christianity did many many things in it's history that almost all would agree wasn't not Christian by practice or fundamental (the Crusades, burning women falsely believed to be witches, etc) yet Christianity will at least acknowledge that all these things were apart of its history, and through reformations many problems have been addressed and fixed.I see a need of this through out the Islamic world for women's rights, religious freedoms, and civil liberties plenty of countries now take for granted.

At 5/16/2014 6:34:12 AM, seeking-knowledge wrote:Truth is, some scholar's opinion may differ from another one's, but Islam is only one. Quran does not support death for apostates, it supports religion freedom. Though ahadith show that the Prophet pbuh said apostates were to be killed, but only in certain and specific cases, like: a traitor, someone who wants to damage or destroy Islaam orthe government, etc. Though they are given many possibilities to repent, contract, or revert, or go away from the state. So an apostate is killed when it clearly damages islaam, phisically for example, and proclaims his apostasy... And any doubt will be in favor of the apostate, which means, if he doesnt confess, or if there are not enough people (generally four) who saw or heard him proclaiming so, then he is not considered an apostate.

The underlined contradicts what you said before it.How can proclaiming disbelief in your religion threaten or damage your religion?

Yes, you're totally right, my mistake.

In fact, proclaiming disbelief itself doesn't damage Islaam.

I meant that if, for example, X says that Y doesn't want to be Muslim anymore, and that he damaged Islam/Muslims (e.g. by attacking muslims phisically or w/e) but X doesn't have any proof, then Y is totally free. Also if there is a doubt about what a X or any other witness is saying, then Y should be free. As far as I know. And this is also what shaykh Y"suf Al-Qarad"w" says, though there exist so many different opinions.

The fact is, the Qur'an supports freedom of choosing religion on your own, but some ahadith say something else... Now we have to ask ourselves:1- Do these ahadith go against Qur'an?2- Are these ahadith reliable?3- What do these ahadith actually refer to?

Sure thing is, according to many ahadith, Muhammad (pbuh) didn't and didn't want to kill apostates. When a scribe, a friend of Muhammad's, wanted to convert to Christianity, the Prophet didn't kill him- he even (pbuh) stayed by his friend's side while he was dying (source: http://theamericanmuslim.org... ).

One more question if you please. If the history of Islam is not Islam - what does this history represent? More to the point, if Islam is not an account of history - what is Islam an account of?

Response: The history of Islam is Islam. But everything in history that says it's Islamic, but is not according o Islamic teachings, is not Islam. It is the history of Muslim civilizations and their interpretation of Islam. Within that history, there are some who have applied Islam correctly, while there are others who have not. So it is not befitting to call all of it Islamic history, because some practices are not Islamic. Apostasy, in which a person is killed simply because they left the religion, is one of those practices, which is not Islamic. But it is a practice that has been wrongfully practiced by Muslims.

I see your point here entirely, but at the same time, I feel like because of vast amount of apparent non-Islamic things taking place in most Islamic nations, reformation should be a priority with in the Islamic faith. On a side note, Christianity did many many things in it's history that almost all would agree wasn't not Christian by practice or fundamental (the Crusades, burning women falsely believed to be witches, etc) yet Christianity will at least acknowledge that all these things were apart of its history, and through reformations many problems have been addressed and fixed.I see a need of this through out the Islamic world for women's rights, religious freedoms, and civil liberties plenty of countries now take for granted.

I have to say, I agree with you. Muslims need to become closer to the Quran, since once again we're experiencing cultural islam, which is a mixing of Islam and local culture...

(Sorry for my bad english. I'm Italian, and really, my english is the worst.)

The truth is a troll. A troll that will slap you so hard you hopefully will starting seeing clearly. And his point is still 100% valid, as this did happen and no one in the Islamic world did a thing to prevent it.

I am not informed about that, who did something to stop them and who didn't, but I will do some research, God willing.

By the way, I found some very interesting information.The only hadith supporting death penalty for apostates which might at least seem reliable, actually is to be considered as da'eef for many reasons. I will tell you one of the main reasons.

Ahadith were transmitted from the companions of the Prophet to the successors, which wrote them down or memorised them, and then the hadith would be transmitted from the successors (at-Taabi'oon) to the successors of the successors (Taabi'ut-Taabi'een).Since the only companion of the Prophet to report this hadith is Ibn 'Abbas, who was only 12 or 13 when the Prophet (pbuh) died (which means, he could have been even younger when he heard that from him), it cannot be considered saheeh = certain, sound.Furthermore, it is known that a hadith with only one chain of transmission are not acceptable and/or completely reliable.

At 5/15/2014 11:39:21 PM, Fatihah wrote:Response: The history of Islam is Islam. But everything in history that says it's Islamic, but is not according o Islamic teachings, is not Islam. It is the history of Muslim civilizations and their interpretation of Islam. Within that history, there are some who have applied Islam correctly, while there are others who have not. So it is not befitting to call all of it Islamic history, because some practices are not Islamic. Apostasy, in which a person is killed simply because they left the religion, is one of those practices, which is not Islamic. But it is a practice that has been wrongfully practiced by Muslims.

I appreciate your thoughtful response and believe you and I have found common ground. Perhaps my previous question was not properly asked. Humanity as a whole - not just select cultures - in this case the Muslim culture, have certainly made mistakes, particularly as it applies toward a belief system. Given this, do you believe some of these cultural ideals such as death to apostates, need to be reformed so they can begin Islam - in accordance with the teachings of the profit Muhammad and the Quran can be shared in peace and tranquility?