re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by epbart on 7/19/12 at 11:35 am to wegotdatwood)

quote:Any doctor worth a shite will tell you multivitamins aren't worth a shite. And in fact could cause you more harm than good. There's a lot of research available out there so just look it up. One multivitamin isn't fixing your need or lack thereof of certain nutrients. All you're doing is making the people that make/market these things richer.

This.

Most Americans get what they need in a half way decent diet.

You also don't need to be a doctor to know this stuff. I hand it to the vitamin industry though. They have done a damn good job marketing and brainwashing people.

wegotdatwood & LSUdm21,

You guys are guilty of what most people do on here. You're taking a couple of valid criticisms, but then using that brush to paint the whole picture black, ignoring any possible benefits.

- yes, it's true that too much oil soluble vitamins like vitamins A & E can be harmful. Whereas excess water soluble vitamins (various Bs and Cs) are merely pissed out, A & E levels can build up and become toxic. I generally look for vitamins with low levels of vitamin A, in particular (7500IU or less).

- It is true that excess iron can be harmful, and the type of iron most vitamin makers use is not that good... and most men don't need it (multi-vitamins for men often specify no iron, which is what men should look for).

-- Yes, in an ideal world, you get all the nutrients you need out of a healthy diet. The reality is that this is a meaningless platitude. Very few people eat well enough to the point that there would be absolutely no benefit to vitamins.

Would you recommend pregnant women stop taking pre-natal vitamins because their babies don't need it and won't benefit? I'm sure you'll say, "oh, but that's different", but is it really? If you acknowledge this situation as having some benefit for the baby, then it is likely at least a little bit good for mom, too. Or, have you heard about the study where they supplemented the diets of prisoners with fish oil (was definitely some type of omega 3 supplement)... and violence in the prison dropped significantly? And personally, the combo of omegas and glucosamine/chondroitin I take minimizes the pain in my knees and hip from old sports injuries.

As with anything, moderation is key:

- again, low level of vitamin A in particular, is better

- no iron for men

- if the suggested serving is 2 or more pills, take at least one pill less than that. Sometimes I take brands that call for 4 to 6 pills, and will only take 2 or 3, which is enough to get the benefit of being exposed to nutrients I don't get... this is also helpful for those who find some vitamins upset their stomach.

Personally, I prefer the ones with whole food complexes and which have small amounts of a lot of different things. New Chapter has a good one. I used to take the Alive brand some mentioned, but I avoid that one now due to the high vitamin A content. But I'll also rotate on and off some like the GNC brand or OptiMen.

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by JJ27 on 7/19/12 at 11:44 am to epbart)

The only thing I have trouble with is vitamins with too much B6. I had to stop taking Animal Stak because I was developing neuropathy in my ulnar nerve in my left arm. A few weeks after getting off of them it stopped.

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by LSUdm21 on 7/19/12 at 11:44 am to epbart)

quote:wegotdatwood & LSUdm21,

You guys are guilty of what most people do on here. You're taking a couple of valid criticisms, but then using that brush to paint the whole picture black, ignoring any possible benefits.

- yes, it's true that too much oil soluble vitamins like vitamins A & E can be harmful. Whereas excess water soluble vitamins (various Bs and Cs) are merely pissed out, A & E levels can build up and become toxic. I generally look for vitamins with low levels of vitamin A, in particular (7500IU or less).

- It is true that excess iron can be harmful, and the type of iron most vitamin makers use is not that good... and most men don't need it (multi-vitamins for men often specify no iron, which is what men should look for).

-- Yes, in an ideal world, you get all the nutrients you need out of a healthy diet. The reality is that this is a meaningless platitude. Very few people eat well enough to the point that there would be absolutely no benefit to vitamins.

Would you recommend pregnant women stop taking pre-natal vitamins because their babies don't need it and won't benefit? I'm sure you'll say, "oh, but that's different", but is it really? If you acknowledge this situation as having some benefit for the baby, then it is likely at least a little bit good for mom, too. Or, have you heard about the study where they supplemented the diets of prisoners with fish oil (was definitely some type of omega 3 supplement)... and violence in the prison dropped significantly? And personally, the combo of omegas and glucosamine/chondroitin I take minimizes the pain in my knees and hip from old sports injuries.

As with anything, moderation is key:

- again, low level of vitamin A in particular, is better

- no iron for men

- if the suggested serving is 2 or more pills, take at least one pill less than that. Sometimes I take brands that call for 4 to 6 pills, and will only take 2 or 3, which is enough to get the benefit of being exposed to nutrients I don't get... this is also helpful for those who find some vitamins upset their stomach.

Personally, I prefer the ones with whole food complexes and which have small amounts of a lot of different things. New Chapter has a good one. I used to take the Alive brand some mentioned, but I avoid that one now due to the high vitamin A content. But I'll also rotate on and off some like the GNC brand or OptiMen.

Good speech except we're talking about One A Day type multivitamins here not things like fish oil which is very good for a lot of things.

quote:Originally made for kids in Africa or some other 3rd world place where they don't get proper nutrition. Some women/pregnant may need something.

Awesome job reading.

quote:Or, have you heard about the study where they supplemented the diets of prisoners with fish oil (was definitely some type of omega 3 supplement)... and violence in the prison dropped significantly?

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by LSUdm21 on 7/19/12 at 11:50 am to wegotdatwood)

Btw, here's a quote from a Yale MD about prenatal vitamins, "If you eat a balanced diet and are not iron deficient, it is not clear that prenatal vitamins result in any health benefits during pregnancy."

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by keakdasneak on 7/19/12 at 12:04 pm to LSUdm21)

quote:Btw, here's a quote from a Yale MD about prenatal vitamins, "If you eat a balanced diet and are not iron deficient, it is not clear that prenatal vitamins result in any health benefits during pregnancy."

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by epbart on 7/19/12 at 12:32 pm to wegotdatwood)

I'm aware the original question was about multi-vitamins and I included feedback about my own preferences when buying a multi.

But both of you guys originally posted with the premise that the industry in general is a sham and that people who spend money on vitamins (this includes supplements) are wasting their money. This is so overly broad that it is invalid-- period.

I actually do agree with you that in principle they aren't necessary if you eat well. And it sounds like you guys are diligent about doing so. That's great-- seriously. But most people don't, and can derive some benefit.

wegotdawood-- yes, your original post acknowledged a couple of exceptions to your overall stance and you cede that pregnant women may benefit, but LSUdm21 did not and that specific part addresses him and his broader dismissal of the industry more directly... so, your sarcasm re: my reading skills is a little off target. I trust you saw that I addressed both of you.

And the fact that many 1st world women are generally deficient to the point that they should take prenatal vitamins is indicative of a broader trend in Americans eating over-processed, not very nutritious food. Athletes and active people also often benefit; I know I've run into the OP in several fitness threads and believe he works out frequently, so his question is valid and deserves a better answer than "dude, that's a waste of money-- just eat better."

quote:Sorry, I'm not in prison

Congrats. By the way, you shouldn't criticize someone else's reading skills (which was misguided as I already stated) only to turn around and post something like this. I realize you're kidding, but this could also be taken as you missing the entire point, and I have faith you didn't.

Seriously, I apologize if my tone seemed a little confrontational-- that's not my intent. I've seen both of you guys around and like you both well enough. I just happen to disagree with your broader opinion here and am supporting my own here.

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by CharlesLSU on 7/19/12 at 12:39 pm to LSUdm21)

quote:Btw, here's a quote from a Yale MD about prenatal vitamins, "If you eat a balanced diet and are not iron deficient, it is not clear that prenatal vitamins result in any health benefits during pregnancy."

...and there's the rub...supplementation is what it means: supplementing nutrients you aren't getting regularly from diet. Again, if you are eating perfectly, please proceed to the next booth.

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by keakdasneak on 7/19/12 at 12:43 pm to epbart)

quote:I actually do agree with you that in principle they aren't necessary if you eat well. And it sounds like you guys are diligent about doing so. That's great-- seriously. But most people don't, and can derive some benefit.

This is the OT, not a medical board. If someone asks what is the best multivitamin for an active 30 year old male, the response "nothing. eat well and get your vitamins via diet" is a 100% valid response.

quote:And the fact that many 1st world women are generally deficient to the point that they should take prenatal vitamins is indicative of a broader trend in Americans eating over-processed, not very nutritious food. Athletes and active people also often benefit; I know I've run into the OP in several fitness threads and believe he works out frequently, so his question is valid and deserves a better answer than "dude, that's a waste of money-- just eat better."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but you seem to be contradicting yourself and backing up our point. The reason people rely on vitamins is because the modern American diet is awful. We're suggesting that people focus on that instead of taking the quick route.

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by epbart on 7/19/12 at 12:44 pm to LSUdm21)

quote:Btw, here's a quote from a Yale MD about prenatal vitamins, "If you eat a balanced diet and are not iron deficient, it is not clear that prenatal vitamins result in any health benefits during pregnancy."

I could re-state this as: Yale doctor says if you already eat a balanced diet "he doesn't know" if vitamins helps. And then the question is, how many pregnant women, or women in general, actually eat a sufficiently balanced diet?

My wife's doctor just told her she was short of vitamin D and to take a supplement. There are doctors on both sides of the argument.

My point, again, is that it is far from true that 99% of the people who take vitamins are wasting their money.

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by LSUdm21 on 7/19/12 at 12:50 pm to CharlesLSU)

quote:BS.....For example, GNC Megaman vitamins typically oversupplement the oilbased versus a basic Centrum. And, many vitamin pushers are not just taking one multi, they are taking handfuls.

And the vitamin pushers are the worst ones because they're more than likely doing the most damage. They usually are getting too much of something because they tend to eat better too and that's not good either.

quote:To SUPPLEMENT your diet, a simple/basic multivitamin is beneficial. If you are a great eater and consuming all the fresh vegis, fish, etc., then you don't need anything.

Simply not true. A One A Day type pill gives you more than 100% of your supposed daily value of vitamins like C,D & E. Then people get more of those things from eating foods and like I said above, too much is bad for you.

quote:BTW, be careful hanging your hat on everything an MD says.....

I'll take my chances on having multiple MDs that I respect in life tell me this over message board MDs.

re: Best multivitamin for an active 30 yr old male???(Posted by epbart on 7/19/12 at 1:09 pm to keakdasneak)

quote:This is the OT, not a medical board. If someone asks what is the best multivitamin for an active 30 year old male, the response "nothing. eat well and get your vitamins via diet" is a 100% valid response.

Different people deserve a different response. Athletes and active people will nod sympathetically to "just eat better" then move on. I don't know Neauxla, but I'm pretty sure I see him posting in a lot of workout threads. In my eyes, that qualifies him as something of an amateur athlete who is looking for an edge, and he likely eats a fairly targeted diet to meet his goals as it is. He is looking for something extra to fill the gaps in his nutrition.

And I don't have a problem with the advice that people should eat better. My posts in this thread are taking direct aim at this sentence that one of the other guys I replied to said:

quote:Any doctor worth a shite will tell you multivitamins aren't worth a shite.

This is overly broad and wrong.

quote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding but you seem to be contradicting yourself and backing up our point. The reason people rely on vitamins is because the modern American diet is awful. We're suggesting that people focus on that instead of taking the quick route.

I agree eating better is always the best choice. The reality is most people don't and are lacking in many nutrients. Beyond just 3rd world kids and pregnant women, active people and athletes, in particular, often benefit from certain vitamins and supplements. Beyond that, many office workers who have stressful jobs probably burn through a lot of nutrients and could use a little support, etc. I don't see any contradiction in saying eating well is great, but sometimes it is helpful, if not outright necessary, to take supplements on top of that.

It should be noted that I agree with LSUdm21 and wegotdawood that supplements can be unhealthy. Some vitamin/supplement companies are unscrupulous and many people don't have common sense and start popping pills without knowing what they're doing. That's why I went on to say in my original post in this thread that I generally look for vitamins with low vitamin A, no iron, and I also only take 1/2 to 2/3 of a dose.