...but I'm going to concentrate on the part that I bolded, because I think its one of the goofiest Christian concepts - the "hiding god makes perfect sense" apologetic argument. Simply stated, "Are you out of your freaking minds?"

Thats not even a proper argument Moar good stuff!

Let me properize it for you.

Anyone that buys into the goofy, Christian, apologetic argument, that a "hiding god makes perfect sense", is out of their freakin' mind! It makes no sense! None, nada, zip! Better?

Mind you, approach things with a open and critical mind. Do not accept arguments that say God is imaginary simply because you are a non-believer. In a similar way, do not reject ideas that say God exists simply because you are a non-believer. For example, I'm an atheist, but that most definitely does not mean that I agree with or accept the ideas put forward at GodIsImaginary

rigabear5, far be it from me to take issue with someone else's self-label, but I have to wonder what kind of atheist would modestly say he doesn't speak for the entire religious community (implying that he does speak for some), or would claim that there is evidence that prayer works?

I agree with you that it is logically erroneous to make a definitive general negative statement like "God Is Imaginary", and about being open minded, but as Dawkins says, let's not be so open-minded that our brains fall out. Although the statement "Anything is possible" is logically true, it doesn't mean that in practice anything should be given the same weight. That path leads to "epistemological anarchy". (my favorite phrase of the week, thanks to Deus Ex Machina)

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I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

This isn't another retread of the old "I'm not religious, I just love the Lord" bit, is it? Frankly, I expect more from anyone with the good taste and comportment to identify as a bear, polar or otherwise.

This isn't another retread of the old "I'm not religious, I just love the Lord" bit, is it? Frankly, I expect more from anyone with the good taste and comportment to identify as a bear, polar or otherwise.

I won't address this, because it is beside the point. If it makes it easier, let us assume that I am indeed a theist.

Notice how the Christians in that thread just sort of, oh I don't know, slinkered off, to the mythological friendly places where their snakeoil fairytales are more easily sold?

There is a lot of crap in that thread (both sides). Could you summarize your argument for me? I suspect the Christians moved on because of how obnoxious and dense the atheists were being. Just a guess though By the way, the statement 'Anyone that buys into the goofy, Christian, apologetic argument, that a "hiding god makes perfect sense", is out of their freakin' mind! It makes no sense!' is not an argument. It is an unsubstantiated vague claim based solely on your opinion.

Notice how the Christians in that thread just sort of, oh I don't know, slinkered off, to the mythological friendly places where their snakeoil fairytales are more easily sold?

There is a lot of crap in that thread (both sides). Could you summarize your argument for me? I suspect the Christians moved on because of how obnoxious and dense the atheists were being. Just a guess though By the way, the statement 'Anyone that buys into the goofy, Christian, apologetic argument, that a "hiding god makes perfect sense", is out of their freakin' mind! It makes no sense!' is not an argument. It is an unsubstantiated vague claim based solely on your opinion.

Now if this is not the pot calling the kettle black..............no they most likely moved on because they could not enforce their ingrained brainwashing fundamentalism on atheists....

There is a lot of crap in that thread (both sides). Could you summarize your argument for me? I suspect the Christians moved on because of how obnoxious and dense the atheists were being. Just a guess though By the way, the statement 'Anyone that buys into the goofy, Christian, apologetic argument, that a "hiding god makes perfect sense", is out of their freakin' mind! It makes no sense!' is not an argument. It is an unsubstantiated vague claim based solely on your opinion.

From the Wiki page for "Argument":

"In logic, an argument is a set of one or more declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises along with another declarative sentence (or "proposition") known as the conclusion. A deductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is a logical consequence of the premises; an inductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is supported by the premises."

There is a lot of crap in that thread (both sides). Could you summarize your argument for me? I suspect the Christians moved on because of how obnoxious and dense the atheists were being. Just a guess though By the way, the statement 'Anyone that buys into the goofy, Christian, apologetic argument, that a "hiding god makes perfect sense", is out of their freakin' mind! It makes no sense!' is not an argument. It is an unsubstantiated vague claim based solely on your opinion.

From the Wiki page for "Argument":

"In logic, an argument is a set of one or more declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises along with another declarative sentence (or "proposition") known as the conclusion. A deductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is a logical consequence of the premises; an inductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is supported by the premises."

Sure, but you'll just use the standard ridiculous, religulous response, that I'm just a puny human, that couldn't possibliy understand the mind of God, but here goes...

Put yourself in a god's shoes. Would you create a bunch of inferior beings, tell them the rules, do a few magic tricks, and then, run off and hide, expecting them to have faith in you - all, to be based on the word of mouth, of dead people? Pull the other leg rigabear.

Sure, but you'll just use the standard ridiculous, religulous response, that I'm just a puny human, that couldn't possibliy understand the mind of God, but here goes...

Put yourself in a god's shoes. Would you create a bunch of inferior beings, tell them the rules, do a few magic tricks, and then, run off and hide, expecting them to have faith in you - all, to be based on the word of mouth, of dead people? Pull the other leg rigabear.

I have often wondered that myself. I mean why would a being that supposedly cannot be killed just hide. Where's he hiding? Heaven? Where's that? A little research would reveal that a lot of the Ancient gods had the same MO as Jesus. Mithra, Zeus and others.

Put yourself in a god's shoes. Would you create a bunch of inferior beings, tell them the rules, do a few magic tricks, and then, run off and hide, expecting them to have faith in you - all, to be based on the word of mouth, of dead people? Pull the other leg rigabear.

You are assuming people that Christians think God has buggered off. You know that Christians still think he is a very real presence and as such your statement is irrelevant to the argument of faith and a Hidden God.

The Bible says (yes I'm using those words) that we must have faith. We cannot have faith if you could prove that God exists. Now, religious coincidences do not prove that God exists; or rather, not in any quantifiable scientific way; and so to believe in God, people have to have faith, they can't just know. Hell in the bible itself; the book that assumes everything is true; it is not fact to the people that God exists. Many did not believe that God existed.

But then how could I possibly talk about the 'prayers that God does answer'? Tough... One could never provide you with absolute proof that God exists. If God did exist he would never allow it; however one can impart their experiences (they may be indirect) to give you sufficent reason to warrant belief. This is similar to scientific theory; I can give you evidence to warrant accpetance of the theory, but there won't be absolute proof.

I hope (for my sake mostly :lol:) that that helps explain it. Do you have anything else to say on the rest of my post on the 'proofs'?

Everyone close your eyes. And believe in me. I will not make myself invisible. If you do not close your eyes and do not believe in me, it's not going to work....

What a huge violation of Occram's razor!!!

All you had to do was state, "I will cease to exist and sponaneously re-exist again." Obviously, since you are over the net, we can't verify. Its not like we know who you are or anything. For all we know, you could be a software program.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

All you had to do was state, "I will cease to exist and sponaneously re-exist again." Obviously, since you are over the net, we can't verify. Its not like we know who you are or anything. For all we know, you could be a software program.[/quote]

1) I don't really see how Occam's razor comes into play here? I wasn't trying to explain any phenomenon here. Just giving my view on what faith means.

I was making a bad joke. In actual fact, I miss-use the razor. You were not giving an explanation but constructor a thought experiment. i was postulating the choice of the "simplest possible" thought experiment to make your point.

We can't see you, so why ask us to close our eyes.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Ah... I overlooked the "seeing" part. I like to do this "demonstration" to theists in person. Strangely, they will always tell me that's stupid. "If I close my eyes, I can't see you, you can claim anything you want!" But will never see how it's a parallel to their blind, unquestioning faith. Or do they see it but are in denial? Either way it's irritating.

Ah... I overlooked the "seeing" part. I like to do this "demonstration" to theists in person. Strangely, they will always tell me that's stupid. "If I close my eyes, I can't see you, you can claim anything you want!" But will never see how it's a parallel to their blind, unquestioning faith. Or do they see it but are in denial? Either way it's irritating.

They probably see what you are driving at but disagree anyway.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Ah... I overlooked the "seeing" part. I like to do this "demonstration" to theists in person. Strangely, they will always tell me that's stupid. "If I close my eyes, I can't see you, you can claim anything you want!" But will never see how it's a parallel to their blind, unquestioning faith. Or do they see it but are in denial? Either way it's irritating.

This is where you'll hear "Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God!". Apparently, all you need to do to "tempt God" is ask impertinent questions.

You know that Christians still think he is a very real presence and as such your statement is irrelevant to the argument of faith and a Hidden God.

Actually, that's why we call it "The God Delusion". Which makes it very relevant.

I see; it seems I misunderstood. But on your last point, what I was saying was that it's not all based on word of mouth, and God is not actually 'hiding' so to speak (demanding faith as opposed to people simply knowing is different to hiding).

I see; it seems I misunderstood. But on your last point, what I was saying was that it's not all based on word of mouth, and God is not actually 'hiding' so to speak (demanding faith as opposed to people simply knowing is different to hiding).

Then what else, pray tell, is your "belief" in the god character, described in the Bible, based on?

I came across your site while looking for information on God’s contest with Baal. It looks as though you’re trying to build a case against God, so I just wanted to write and suggest that you remove “Compare God and Baal” as this one doesn’t build toward that objective very well. You seem to be working from the notion that God is just an organ grinder monkey, ready to dance – or, in this case, send fire from the sky – whenever someone chooses to crank the music.

In this passage, neither Elijah nor the prophets of Baal are suggesting the non-existence of God. Their question is – “Is Yahweh God, or is Baal God?” This isn’t really a consideration of A) God, B) Baal, or C) None of the above. Both sides agreed that a creator existed, they just disagreed as to which god was the true Creator.

Just as you are not required to order the same menu item each time you enter a particular restaurant, God is under no obligation to set another altar ablaze just because you or I request it. He’s allowed a little variety! I would certainly be interested in you calling on the power of evolution or the big bang to light an altar and prove that they created life and the universe. Frankly, that seems every bit as likely as the notion that all the order and beauty of the universe resulted from billions of coincidences, as such ideas suggest.

Okay, the last two sentences were me being a little silly, so I beg your pardon if you found no humor there. My point is, God met the challenge of Baal that one day; He met the challenge of atheism “In the beginning…” when He created the heavens and the Earth. He invented fire – and everything else – so it is unnecessary for Him to meet this particular challenge to prove His existence. And, truthfully, I feel that if it happened that way, you’d call the fire from the sky a “coincidence” anyways.

Full disclosure – I read the “Baal” argument, your first argument on the site, and the titles of the other arguments. As an aside, “Proof # 1” attempts a little hard to pull at the heart strings in what reads like an attempt to compensate for what it lacks in logic. I’ll admit that I didn’t take the time to read all the rest, but most atheists I’ve known have tended to place their faith in atheism either because of a desire for no moral authority or because of a feeling of disappointment in either God or in Christians they’ve encountered in the past. In most cases, it’s been a combination of both.

If you fall into the former category, I get it. There have certainly been times in my life where a lie would be more convenient than truth and times when I didn’t really want to choose the right thing. Sometimes I haven’t chosen the right thing. But I’m a human and fallible, so cut me a little slack, please? And if you could do the same for the divorced Christians one of your argument titles mentions, that would be very benevolent of you!

If you fall into the latter, I’m sorry for whatever pain you’ve endured. Whether it’s a hard situation you wish God had intervened in that didn’t turn out like you’d hoped or whether it was someone who hurt you, I truly am sorry you went through that. God isn’t a genie and prayer doesn’t work like rubbing a lamp (sorry to bust the premise of your Argument # 1). Just know that, whether you believe in God and whether you hate Him, He loves you very much. I hope that someday you change your mind, so He can eventually help you understand your hurt. I have to get back to my original study, but I just wanted you to know it isn’t how you seem to think and I pray you someday realize that!

As Nick said, this thread has been inactive for almost 5 years. If you're inclined to stick around, post on the Introductions or Testimonials subforums so we can learn a bit about you.

Some advice: posting on topics that have been inactive for more than a month is considered "thread necromancy" and frowned on. A believer like yourself should find no shortage of currently active threads to comment on.

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Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius