Am I Here Again? wrote:FWIW we're a mere 1/2 game ahead of the White Sux. We play like this in either of the next two games (and I don't even want to think about losing two more to them right now) and we'll be in 3rd place. Crap. And with Fausto going tomorrow.................

Am I Here Again? wrote:FWIW we're a mere 1/2 game ahead of the White Sux. We play like this in either of the next two games (and I don't even want to think about losing two more to them right now) and we'll be in 3rd place. Crap. And with Fausto going tomorrow.................

Well, I don't know if Fausto is better than Jimenez or not, but I can say that Jimenez has not pitched like an ace..not by a long shot. Really hasn't pitched much like an ace all year. This was the type of game where I think we envision our ace going out there, pitching 7 or 8 and giving up one or two runs.

Choo with the bases loaded in the 13th or 14th (all running together) with 1 out HAS to get the job done there against Jesse Crain. That's simply unacceptable and it's been a theme with him all year. Hell in the 9th he actually hit into a DP but got bailed out by Gordon LaPorta... err, Beckham.

And they have to make a decision on Kipnis. If he's able to even run last night, LaPorta doesn't have to be at 2nd when Brantley singles late, and he probably can score.

Just a series of absolute shitty luck last night. Umps were wretched. Jimenez blew goats. Now Buerhle tonight against our LH heavy lineup. Damn it.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

noles1 wrote:Choo with the bases loaded in the 13th or 14th (all running together) with 1 out HAS to get the job done there against Jesse Crain. That's simply unacceptable and it's been a theme with him all year. Hell in the 9th he actually hit into a DP but got bailed out by Gordon LaPorta... err, Beckham.

And they have to make a decision on Kipnis. If he's able to even run last night, LaPorta doesn't have to be at 2nd when Brantley singles late, and he probably can score.

Just a series of absolute shitty luck last night. Umps were wretched. Jimenez blew goats. Now Buerhle tonight against our LH heavy lineup. Damn it.

I'm not gonna blame the offense for this game. they did a great job after trailing the whole game and coming back twice from more than a run down. Yeah, you could blame Choo and Cabrera in the 13th, especially Choo, but I put this one on squarely on Ubaldo and then Manny for not pulling Herrmann in the 6th once we tied it. Go to your horses right there. Ubaldo did the job against the Tigers, but we can't have a 33 percent percentage of games he pitches well. That was not the plan. He's been a massive disappointment. Perhaps he'll get better...he goes against Verlander next. We shall see.

Bigfist wrote:Well, I don't know if Fausto is better than Jimenez or not, but I can say that Jimenez has not pitched like an ace..not by a long shot. Really hasn't pitched much like an ace all year. This was the type of game where I think we envision our ace going out there, pitching 7 or 8 and giving up one or two runs.

Well, it's been 8 starts ago (colorado) since Carmona gave up 5 runs or more in a start, Jimenez has done it in 2 of his 3 starts with the team. You could take it a step further and state Jimenez is actually the worst of our 5 starters right now. Yeah, small sample size with the team for Ubaldo, but for the entire season, Ubaldo has a higher WHIP than Fausto...that's a large sample size. Yes, it's early and yes there's lots of season to go, but for now I don't think pitching well 1 of every 3 starts is what you want from the guy.

Well, with the use of the bullpen last night, we really need Fausto to go deep into the game. I guess one could say the same about the White Sox, but I just sort of feel that Buerhle will do that..and hopefully Fausto will as well.

Am I Here Again? wrote:FWIW we're a mere 1/2 game ahead of the White Sux. We play like this in either of the next two games (and I don't even want to think about losing two more to them right now) and we'll be in 3rd place. Crap. And with Fausto going tomorrow.................

fausto is better than jimenez

I wasn't stating that one was better than the other, was I? I just don't see much hope for a different outcome from Fausto than we had last night with Ubaldo and Co. Sometimes the onus is on Fausto for crappy pitching. Sometimes the problem is a total lack of defense backing him or Tribe offense not showing. But he hasn't been winning. On the other hand Fausto IS averaging one win a month. Tonight just MIGHT be his night!

So far I'm not liking what I'm hearing when Ubaldo pitches. I do have to give him credit, though, for being able to work out of jams. Last night's first inning is a good example. Allows only ONE run in in spite of the fact that after he got the first man out on two pitches the guys behind him proceed to commit one error and one more that wasn't called. In spite of the circus on the field behind him only one run comes in. Maybe Ubaldo should have struck out the two batters that came to the plate after De Aza reached base...might be the only way to not allow any runs in while the D is playing like clowns.

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

I wasn't stating that one was better than the other, was I? [img][/quote]

No you weren't. Tough matchup tonight with Buehrle and Fausto's very high ERA is largely a function of his two starts against the White Sox!! I'm just pretty bullish on Fausto right now. He hasn't pitched a bad game since late June...granted a few weeks on the DL in there, but he's been very, very consistent his last 7 starts...not great mind you or many great games, but absolutely zero bad games in there.

the guy has less quality starts than Carrasco and has started 3 more games, he has less than Carmona with the same number of starts, his team's lose more frequently than even Carrasco and Carmona in their starts. With the way Huff has pitched in his short time up, it looks to me like we acquired our number 6 starter for White and Pomeranz!! Sorry, I couldn't resist!! ( I know it's for 2012 too!) He's gonna run off 7 or 8 straight QS to end the season and give us the division.

Last edited by scrambler on Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

the guy has less quality starts than Carrasco and has started 3 more games, he has the exact same as Carmona with more starts, his team's lose more frequently than even Carrasco and Carmona in their starts. With the way Huff has pitched in his short time up, it looks to me like we acquired our number 6 starter for White and Pomeranz!! Sorry, I couldn't resist!! ( I know it's for 2012 too!) He's gonna run off 7 or 8 straight QS to end the season and give us the division.

Anyone not worried about Ubaldo is in denial or lying, and being so isn't ledging. I'm still perplexed why Colorado was willing to part with him and also why the Yankees, a team that needs a starting arm worse than any other contending team, didn't get it done, the team that is willing to do and or get rid of whoever it takes at all costs couldn't get this deal done. Did they maybe know something or smell something fishy with this? Maybe I'm overly concerned, and his time with us so far is a small sample, but the sample as most have been saying has been horrendous thus far. Just concerned not ripping the kid. Whatever's going on he needs to turn it around soon though, if Fausto can, anyone should be able to, barring an injury.

TouchEmAllTime wrote:Anyone not worried about Ubaldo is in denial or lying, and being so isn't ledging. I'm still perplexed why Colorado was willing to part with him and also why the Yankees, a team that needs a starting arm worse than any other contending team, didn't get it done, the team that is willing to do and or get rid of whoever it takes at all costs couldn't get this deal done.

Just a small FYI, but you do realize the Yankees haven't paid top of market price for a pitcher via trade in many, many, many years. Including sitting out a CC deal and two Cliff Lee deals. Their belief is keeping the prospects is worth it when you can just buy the guys at a later date.

As for the rest of it and the scrambler crap, this place is nothing if not predictable.

TouchEmAllTime wrote:Anyone not worried about Ubaldo is in denial or lying, and being so isn't ledging. I'm still perplexed why Colorado was willing to part with him and also why the Yankees, a team that needs a starting arm worse than any other contending team, didn't get it done, the team that is willing to do and or get rid of whoever it takes at all costs couldn't get this deal done.

Just a small FYI, but you do realize the Yankees haven't paid top of market price for a pitcher via trade in many, many, many years. Including sitting out a CC deal and two Cliff Lee deals. Their belief is keeping the prospects is worth it when you can just buy the guys at a later date.

As for the rest of it and the scrambler crap, this place is nothing if not predictable.

But they need an arm right now, not in the off season, sorry to interrupt you from your regular scheduled NBATv program.

e0y2e3 wrote:The Yankees have needed additional arms for as many years as they have been sitting out the trade market.

Like when CC was traded.

Like when Cliff was traded.

Like when Cliff was traded again.

Sorry to interrupt you from blatantly ignoring the facts.

Their minor league system hasn't been all that great, and still really isn't except for a couple highly rated catchers and arms. I'm sure they tried to get those guys just as hard as any other team. I heard they didn't want to part with Montero in a Jiminez deal, which just makes me question why when they also have C Gary Sanchez that alot of people think will also be solid at catcher.

With the Tribe boards in usual form, the game threads being unbearable all season, Soul Dawg turning every Brown thread into the same exact awful thread, and the NBA likely locked out for the season, I'd be interested in a recommendation on where I could find and/or volunteer a worthwhile post.

Okay, they have had high rated prospects every years and the scrap heap deals the Indians got at the very least were considered pretty shitty.

Every since Cashman didn't walk out a few years ago and signed that extension he has demanded he be allowed to build a real farm system and not forced into trading key guys away annually. There was a very distinct shift in organizational philosophy and it was reported ad naseum when it happened.

And w/ the death of old man Steinbrenner he forever won.

BTW: say what you want about the package the Yankees allegedly wouldn't give up and walked away from (allegedly because of the physical being refused when we allegedly had a very thorough physical before anything was official) but Pomz and White is probably/really/absolutely a better package anyway.

Last edited by e0y2e3 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

leadpipe wrote:With the Tribe boards in usual form, the game threads being unbearable all season, Soul Dawg turning every Brown thread into the same exact awful thread, and the NBA likely locked out for the season, I'd be interested in a recommendation on where I could find and/or volunteer a worthwhile post.

leadpipe wrote:With the Tribe boards in usual form, the game threads being unbearable all season, Soul Dawg turning every Brown thread into the same exact awful thread, and the NBA likely locked out for the season, I'd be interested in a recommendation on where I could find and/or volunteer a worthwhile post.

Up to my ears in nonsense and knee-jerk.

This place is absolutely at a low point of it's existence. Can't even have the annual "NO NBA FA'S WILL COME HERE!!!" bitchfest to save it.

And I don't know if anything or anyone can save that Browns board now.

leadpipe wrote:With the Tribe boards in usual form, the game threads being unbearable all season, Soul Dawg turning every Brown thread into the same exact awful thread, and the NBA likely locked out for the season, I'd be interested in a recommendation on where I could find and/or volunteer a worthwhile post.

Up to my ears in nonsense and knee-jerk.

This place is absolutely at a low point of it's existence. Can't even have the annual "NO NBA FA'S WILL COME HERE!!!" bitchfest to save it.

And I don't know if anything or anyone can save that Browns board now.

You didn't even "slobber and cry" over shit analysis of a stupid meaningless preseason game. Go save the forum.

leadpipe wrote:With the Tribe boards in usual form, the game threads being unbearable all season, Soul Dawg turning every Brown thread into the same exact awful thread, and the NBA likely locked out for the season, I'd be interested in a recommendation on where I could find and/or volunteer a worthwhile post.

Up to my ears in nonsense and knee-jerk.

Have you tried Cleveland.com?

Do they have Tribe game threads in which every other post is BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

TouchEmAllTime wrote:Anyone not worried about Ubaldo is in denial or lying, and being so isn't ledging. I'm still perplexed why Colorado was willing to part with him and also why the Yankees, a team that needs a starting arm worse than any other contending team, didn't get it done, the team that is willing to do and or get rid of whoever it takes at all costs couldn't get this deal done.

Just a small FYI, but you do realize the Yankees haven't paid top of market price for a pitcher via trade in many, many, many years. Including sitting out a CC deal and two Cliff Lee deals. Their belief is keeping the prospects is worth it when you can just buy the guys at a later date.

As for the rest of it and the scrambler crap, this place is nothing if not predictable.

Facts are very hard for you aren't they? I presented clear statistical evidence why I think Ubaldo is the 6th best starter on this team right now. It was not crap at all. Just say you feel the stats are meaningless, don't state it's crap with zero evidence to the contrary. but of course there is zero evidence to the contrary is there, they're simply numbers that exist...you can't deny smiple evidence to a point. That just proves I'm right and you know it. IT was facts. If you disagree that is fine, but you're wrong I think. Carmona is a far better pitcher right now. He hasn't given up more than 4 runs in his last 8 starts (well there is still more to go tonight so that could change). Ubaldo has done it in 3 of his last 5 starts and gave up 4 in 1 inning in a 4th. He's wretched right now. He pitched a great game against Detroit he did. IF he starts pitching better great, I hope he does. But in essence as of right now, he's pretty bad. We've got 5 starters pitching better than him right now.

Step 2) Find sample of simplistic stats that can be used to pain the exact picture you want

Step 3) Ignore any other implication of those stats by using them in the most limited way possible

Step 4) Ignore any and all other stats

Step 5) Ignore all outside factors

Step 6) Present argument as undeniable truth

Step 7) Proclaim advanced utilization of numbers

You got me. Tell me any starting pitcher on our roster that you think Ubaldo Jimenez is superior to and tell me why and give my your evidence. You obviously didn't like mine. Present yours in any manner you like. I know what's been going on since June 20th and what I've seen in Fausto Carmona. I stand by my first post in this page in this thread, I stated it even before tonight. Fausto's last start convinced me he was back, and I was much, much more impressed with his Detroit start than Ubaldo's Detroit start based on outside factors. Tell my why on August 18th, 2011, Ubaldo Jimenez would be a better choice to start a game than Masterson, Tomlin, Carmona, Carrasco, or Huff. Go.

I would 100% want to throw David Huff the ball in game 2 of a playoff series instead of Ubaldo.

That was a damn fine statistical analysis you presented there!

I don't know what I was thinking.

Of course I presented zero statistical evidence of David Huff at all in this thread. I just said he's pitched well. That was an easy one for you to pick the one I presented no statistics on!! Very clever. What about the other 4 I did present statistics??

I get your point. AT this point in 1997 I'm guessing anyone stating they would have liked Jaret Wright or Chad Ogea to start a World Series game over Orel Hershiser or Charles Nagy would have been laughed at heartily too!! At this point I'm only considering game 4 and if it's Huff or Jimenez though. Games 1 through 3 are pretty easy for me!! Carrasco's on the DL, I don't know his health situation.

There was LOADS of statistical fact presented during the Ubaldo trade. Real analysis. You've just ignored that and are now screaming like a lost little kid about two games and misconstrued numbers from before the trade.

It's the worst posting style of all, the one where you pretend to be informed and even handed when you are actually just being a dolt.

Thsi is why boards exist to discuss idiotic stuff e...you know that. I hope I'm wrong, even though I'm not even wrong. ON August 18th 2011 Ubaldo Jimenez stinks. By September 29th he may have thrown an ERA of 1.23 his last 8 starts and gone 7-1 and he's clearly our number 1 starter going to post season. That will not mean he didn't stink today and 4 of his last 5 starts were completely horrid which is a disturbing trend right now.

I think today he is our 6th best starter. ON September 29th he may be our best or 4th best or 2nd best. ON September 1st he may be throwing lights out. His trends this year are not good at all though. That's all I'm saying. I presented some stats to show that is all.

e0y2e3 wrote:Naw, I'm not cherry picking, just not having a discourse w/ a moron.

There was LOADS of statistical fact presented during the Ubaldo trade. Real analysis. You've just ignored that and are now screaming like a lost little kid about two games and misconstrued numbers from before the trade.

It's the worst posting style of all, the one where you pretend to be informed and even handed when you are actually just being a dolt.

That awesome Coors field stuff and his road stats stuff, that stuff you mean?? Is that what you mean??

Yep, his pretrade month was terrible and his home/road splits at Coors never existed!!!

Sorry, I've spent too many years on message boards to get baiting into your stupid shit. If someone is going to choose a point of view as stupid as yours and present that shitty of stats to back it up I'm not biting. Especially not on the Indians board.

e0y2e3 wrote:Yep, his pretrade month was terrible and his home/road splits at Coors never existed!!!

Sorry, I've spent too many years on message boards to get baiting into your stupid shit. If someone is going to choose a point of view as stupid as yours and present that shitty of stats to back it up I'm not biting. Especially not on the Indians board.

Tell me why it's stupid?? WHIP is my favorite pitcher stat. I think it's the best one. Why dont' you like it? I Like team won-loss record for starting pitchers better than individual won-loss records. But both can be misleading. HE pitched well in June through mid July. HE stunk in April and May and then again from mid July through today. I think all 4 pitchers with more than 20 starts on the team have pitched better than Jimenez...that is not stupid at all. David Huff is stupid as it is a very small sample size. Nothing I've stated is stupid at all other than perhaps stating Huff is better than Jimenez.

I'm concerned how the guy is pitching. It is hopefully just a slump and he'll be great from here on out. That is why the trade was made obviously. If you think what he's done so far this year is clear evidence he'll be great from here on out, you know stuff I don't. I hope you're right though.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Stop fighting, everyone should be friends. Ubaldo hasn't been good, but it's still early. I still make the trade, but that's just me.

well, eO doesn't like my cherry picking. He likes to cherry pick Ubaldo's June 1st through July 19th stats and his non coors field starts. That's good cherry picking. He's not a moron like he called me though. But he is a complete hypocrite for thinking his cherry pickign is superior to my cherry picking. I cherry pick WHIP and team record. He cherry picked June 1st through July 19th. And road stats. I need to worship his better cherry picking. I don't have the time or inclination to be eO's friend!! HE thinks he's smarter than me though which is maybe true, but cherry picking is cherry picking, and if he can do it, so can I!! He doesn't think he does though. He thinks non coors field stats are all that matters, I'll say his last 5 starts weren't at coors but 4 were terrible and he can cherry pick and say Arizona, Texas et al are the same as coors so it's not cherry picking.

scrambler wrote:You got me. Tell me any starting pitcher on our roster that you think Ubaldo Jimenez is superior to and tell me why and give my your evidence. You obviously didn't like mine. Present yours in any manner you like. I know what's been going on since June 20th and what I've seen in Fausto Carmona. I stand by my first post in this page in this thread, I stated it even before tonight. Fausto's last start convinced me he was back, and I was much, much more impressed with his Detroit start than Ubaldo's Detroit start based on outside factors. Tell my why on August 18th, 2011, Ubaldo Jimenez would be a better choice to start a game than Masterson, Tomlin, Carmona, Carrasco, or Huff. Go.

In August CC Sabathia has an ERA higher than anyone on our staff, therefore on August 19th, he stinks. He may be good come late September, but as of right now I'd rather have anyone on our staff over him and he is the Yankees 6th best starter.

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:In August CC Sabathia has an ERA higher than anyone on our staff, therefore on August 19th, he stinks. He may be good come late September, but as of right now I'd rather have anyone on our staff over him and he is the Yankees 6th best starter.

See how stupid that sounds?

Its also really funny when you read that and then look at your picture of Wedge immediately after.

scrambler wrote:Thsi is why boards exist to discuss idiotic stuff e...you know that. I hope I'm wrong, even though I'm not even wrong. ON August 18th 2011 Ubaldo Jimenez stinks. By September 29th he may have thrown an ERA of 1.23 his last 8 starts and gone 7-1 and he's clearly our number 1 starter going to post season. That will not mean he didn't stink today and 4 of his last 5 starts were completely horrid which is a disturbing trend right now.

I think today he is our 6th best starter. ON September 29th he may be our best or 4th best or 2nd best. ON September 1st he may be throwing lights out. His trends this year are not good at all though. That's all I'm saying. I presented some stats to show that is all.

here's what I wrote pup at the end of it all. YES gave some good logic why he preferred Jimenez as to all others but Masterson which is fine. I looked at other means as to why I preferred every other. He stinks right now and as of August 21st, 2011 he still stinks. He's got all of September to show more though and I admit that. I also stated we need all of 2012 to judge this trade. I also stated he is not a good pitcher this year. If that is evil so be it.