Thanks Kevin. I appreciate your opinion and thoughts. I have different ones but it doesn't mean I don't like you and don't respect you. I do. I am super grateful for your work and service. Everyone's. Thank you.

Personally I don't see a future for Joomla as free software if work on it is on a paid basis. For Joomla to remain 'free' (in all senses of the word) software then the symbiotic relationship between volunteer coders and volunteer testers to be strengthened.

Then maybe more open source software needs to look into some kind of paid model (support time/staff, "pro" version, whatever) to make compensation a viable option. And no, this doesn't apply solely to a special type of contributor. In OSS, usually the developers are the focal point around these types of discussions, but for a software project to be successful it relies heavily on QA resources (testers), documentation resources, translation resources if you're aiming for an international market, marketing resources, and much much more. The same issue exists in other professions (writers, musicians, and artists being great examples).

And I'm really not trying to incite a "pay me or I'm not doing a thing" riot here. One of the things that has gotten under my skin more than it probably should is how people respond to the complaints others make about the software or the project (in many cases rightfully so), and that response usually tries to play into the altruistic tendencies of people to encourage them to help make the change they wish to see happen. Which is all fine and good, but it's not sustainable on a mass scale for a long timeframe (and just because it has worked to some degree for Joomla for 14 years does not mean it is a viable model). A lot of people look at them as being evil, but there's a reason that Symfony, WordPress, and Drupal have Symfony SAS (previously SensioLabs before breaking into a separate company), Automattic, and Acquia providing resources to their open source projects. Maybe it's time we all realize that volunteer time has costs as well, they just aren't going to be incurred by the recipient of that volunteer time.

For everyone in this thread who puts an hour into answering posts on this forum, or doing software QA, or contributing to the software's development, or writing documentation, or creating or reviewing translations, that is an hour of your time utilizing your skills that is going uncompensated, time that could be spent on either other activities that are more joyful and relaxing if you're trying to not do "work" or activities that generate income if you are trying to do something work-like (and that adds up over time; I coordinated 53 releases over a cumulative 3 and a half years, and we'll say I put 10 hours into each release on release specific tasks (packaging, publishing announcements, reviewing drafts, reviewing and merging security patches, etc.), that's 530 hours of my time that went uncompensated because I did not do release work on-the-clock with my employers over that time and that work did not have any type of sponsorship).

@mbabker
Yes, my point exactly. But only 10 hours per release 530 hours... surely more than that?

How about 37,000 + posts over an 11 year period. Say average 3 mins per post = nearly 2,000 hours.

That is not including the time I use to check my facts before typing the posts. Nor including the hours of testing while I was in bugsquad or the 32 hours (over a bank holiday) testing an enhancement to Joomla update. Nor the hours help testing a fix for the 'remember me' problem. All unpaid while coping with personal problems that were literal a matter of life or death.

I didn't do all that (and more) just for my ego. I did it because I enjoy helping people and to give back for the free software that others were developing. But now it is getting too complicated for me and the attitude (that I perceive) from some dev's has taken a lot of the enjoyment out of testing.

the attitude (that I perceive) from some dev's has taken a lot of the enjoyment out of testing.

I can concur to that and how so called certain Team Leads think they should "lead" has made me quit the CMS-Release Team as well as the Joomla Bug Squad recently. Fun was gone. The perception from some people that specialized testers are not on the same level in this community as code-contributers or documentation providers is banal to say the least but that is for sure another discussion

I get (indirect) paid for my support here on the forums not in direct money from OSM (God forgive me I would not want any) but through exposure of knowledge and ability to assist commercially very fast. Users approach us to get issues resolved and they pay for it which is great. Bread and butter on the table! I give back to this community through my support here and in "teams" and get business out of it.... So for me spending so much time on the forums has been a pleasure, also for the fact it keeps me up-to-date with solutions of issues which I can share with users or clients (I keep learning). However for the tons of hours of testing (thanks to @Michael Babker for the component) in CMS and JBS I never got a penny (still the perception wanting to give back to this community) Sad but fact....Regretfully own "glory" interests i.e ego trippers are driving specific groups and that hurts quality and consistency. A professional managed and commercial driven (incentives?) CMS-Release Team I would support at any moment since it would improve dramatically the releases and issues such as the recent release of (insufficient tested) J3.9.9 would not happen

2 ct's

Leo

Last edited by leolam on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

As I see it, a lot of the developers and even testers are making their money by selling and maintaining Joomla! based sites to their paying customers. Some people write and sell books on Joomla! So no, maybe not paid directly for the effort they put into the community, but indirectly making money out of this awesome open source CMS.
Without the Free and Open Source Joomla! they would have no or less income.

I am with @webdongle. If you want a successful Open Source CMS;

"the symbiotic relationship between volunteer coders and volunteer testers to be strengthened."

Oh and remember.. the best testers are the inexperienced amateurs.... they tend to break things...
When testing, that is good! They never get paid anything.

Disappointng to see that the first update wasn't tested properly, to eliminate the bug before we all put it on our sites, I would much rather see you take an approach where you test things, before releasing them.. That would have been responsible imho..

I understand your feeling. However, Joomla CMS is a community effort and you are part of the community.

The Joomla! 3.9.9 Release Candidate has been released 8 days ago. The purpose of a Release Candidate is that it's being tested by members of the Joomla community. The more testers we have, the more we can minimize issues like with Joomla 3.9.9.

Hello Peter, to be honest, I don't trust it enough to even put it on my computer unless it is released to the public, people just need read the ramblings of so called "champions" to know that there is a lot of people that have taken oaths and performed rituals in lodges to lie to, and obstruct, non masons like me. Also, I wouldn't be able to commit the time to it, unfortunately.. I feel that a more proffessional approach is the way forward, maybe start paying people for their time, I would be amazed if the people behind Joomla are not on a decent wage, it is unrealistic for them not to pay people for their time in my view.. As somebody who pretty much runs an organisation on a voluntary basis, and uses Joomla for all our sites, I just want the best product..

I still haven't put 3.9.10 on any of our sites, as I know, that as soon as I do, 3.9.11 will be out, and until it all calms down a bit, I can't see that changing anytime soon..

I would be amazed if the people behind Joomla are not on a decent wage, it is unrealistic for them not to pay people for their time in my view.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but Joomla has an annual budget of $0 which go to directly paying individuals and or organizations for work directly related to Joomla (the core software, maintenance of the `joomla.org` web properties, documentation, marketing, etc.). And this has been the case since August 2005.

@Newman123
It is obvious that you are just making excuses not to volunteer. Testing the nightly builds/release candidates does not harm your computer nor do you need specialised software to do so. Expecting testers to get paid for testing something that they get for free is reticulates.

@jgress
"Volunteer coding is exploitation" yes and so is Volunteer testing. But together it is not exploitation it is a symbiotic relationship.

Perhaps coding (for various reasons) has become more complex and can no longer be done without financial compensation. If that is the case then for devs to get paid a Testers not then that is exploitation.

Personally I don't see a future for Joomla as free software if work on it is on a paid basis. For Joomla to remain 'free' (in all senses of the word) software then the symbiotic relationship between volunteer coders and volunteer testers to be strengthened.

I would never pay for it, the quality is in no way high enough to be a paid product, and the thought of lining the pockets of some of the rotten people on this forum, turns my stomach..

@Newman123
It is obvious that you are just making excuses not to volunteer. Testing the nightly builds/release candidates does not harm your computer nor do you need specialised software to do so. Expecting testers to get paid for testing something that they get for free is reticulates.

Webdongle, you clearly know nothing about the person you are talking to.. If you did, you would know that I have been running my own organisation here in England for the last 18 months on a voluntary basis.. There is no basis in truth to your wild allegations..

I trust this reply clarifying the situation, will not be deleted by the members of the Admin teams that roll their trouser leg up.. I also note that attacks on myself are not deleted, and my defences are.. What sort of rotten agenda is that.. Keept the games to your lodges..

Webdongle, you clearly know nothing about the person you are talking to.. If you did, you would know that I have been running my own organisation here in England for the last 18 months on a voluntary basis.. There is no basis in truth to your wild allegations.....

I know that you are criticising the Joomla volunteers without offering to help with Joomla. What you do with your time is irrelevant to the conversation about your not volunteer to 'fix' things and make improvements on the topic you are knocking. Therefore my comments (in relation to Joomla volunteering) was and is valid. And they will remain valid until you help with Joomla rather than just complaining.

Webdongle, you clearly know nothing about the person you are talking to.. If you did, you would know that I have been running my own organisation here in England for the last 18 months on a voluntary basis.. There is no basis in truth to your wild allegations.....

I know that you are criticising the Joomla volunteers without offering to help with Joomla. What you do with your time is irrelevant to the conversation about your not volunteer to 'fix' things and make improvements on the topic you are knocking. Therefore my comments (in relation to Joomla volunteering) was and is valid. And they will remain valid until you help with Joomla rather than just complaining.

You question my ability to volunteer, I volunteer on a daily basis, there is no basis to your lies, I love to volunteer, just not for millionnaires who expect people to work for free on a project they have made millions out of.. I am not an idiot, why on earth should anybody do that?? Pay people what they are worth, and then you may get your shabby product that is riddled with errors really isn't it let's be honest, tested properly..

...and then you may get your shabby product that is riddled with errors really isn't it let's be honest, tested properly..

You believe this too, and yet you continue to use it?

Personally, I believe that your issues are due to a lack of willingness on your part to keep the software and third-party extensions up to date using recommended work-flows/methodology and possibly issues with your server configuration.

I would never pay for it, the quality is in no way high enough to be a paid product...

Then name a paid product that DOES meet your standards... AND you are willing to pay for!

I met a dozen of proprietary CMS's in my career. By profession I work with top notch (mainly top paid, huge license fees but apparently popular by multinationals) Adobe Experience Manager.... worked with MS Sharepoint to see if it can meet the companies needs... amongst a lot that died in the past..

All can be simply outperformed and managed easier by J!..

(oh wait... I, and you cannot believe I say this, would choose WP over AEM..... and WP s#cks as it is far from enterprise ready)