Wednesday, March 10, 2010

Chicago to $10 an Hour!

Illinois licensed attorney with exceptional research and legal drafting skills needed to support attorney work in several areas of law, including immigration, bankruptcy, mortgage foreclosure and loan modification, family, criminal, among others. The position is full time -- 9am to 6pm, Monday through Friday, and requires a natural talent for writing and research, an ability to produce exceptional work within a short amount of time, as numerous assignments will always be in the queue. This is a great intro position for someone who has this talent but minimal experience, and wants to learn a great deal quickly in many areas of law. The pay is non-negotiable $10/hour with a review in six months' time. Full benefits are provided after three month probation term is passed. This is the legal equivalent of the medical school graduate's residency experience.

As bad as BigLaw sweatshops are at least there are plenty of eyes and hence plenty of rules. There are the recruiters, the law firms, the hundreds of contract attorneys - so word get out pretty fast about wrongdoings. With a nasty solo or small firm it's just you and a few other weirdos - they can do anything to you. Work you like a horse, hold your pay, threaten to fire you every second ....that's just what happened to me. I quit...but am too drained to look for another gig. I feel like I was in Vietnam and my heart won't stop racing with fear.

That's really insulting. It's two dollars and change above minimum wage! You don't pay professionals minimum wage. If the ad was placed by a young attorney looking for help, he/she should at least acknowledge that---note that he or she's also a baby lawyer. But if not---if it's an established attorney looking to rape the market because of the economic realities out there . . . then may the gods of karma strike him down.

I have worked for several solo lawyers and it is $10 per hour paying hell on earth. The work conditions are terrible and the boss haranges you night and day. For one job I was never paid on time, had money "deducted" for this or that, had no benefits, and after being fired for "bad work" was not paid my last check.My boss called me a "fucking idiot" and "useless dung" that's 5really great. Yeah it's very honorable to be an attorney at the bar.Everyone knew at another job the boss was bopping the secretary and the receptionist and made dirty remarks all the time.

Ummmmm, this is not quite as the headline implies. This is not a downtown firm, but really a suburban firm on the southwest side, in a bit of a rough area. Put another way, you won't be hanging out at lunch with traders from the Merc.

Medical doctors make about $50k in residency, although they do work a lot of hours they can also leave very early some days when they want to. This is nothing like residency at all, residents for the most part watch, here you're expected to do all the work for minimal pay and then get yelled at as well. That's messed up.

I can't believe doctors complain about how hard their jobs are and how "bad" the medical field is. I remember when studying for the bar there was a guy that was telling me how his doctor friends have it rough and the field isn't worth it anymore. I wonder if that guy passed the bar and whether he got a job or not, and how that friend of his is doing now (I'm sure making well into 6 figures for the doctor friend).

For $ome rea$on, these job advertisements are not listed in glossy law school brochures, DVDs, or mentioned at law school fairs. Because that *might* negatively impact the number of lemmings who go to law school. And we can't have that after all.

Because "law professors" who practiced law for 8 minutes MUST make $160K a year for working 4-6 hours a week. They are "legal scholars," after all and should be compensated at such high levels. They are instilling the virtue of "public service," "pro bono" work, and "giving back to the community." Plus, their "scholarly aricles" are read, analyzed, scrutinized, and discussed thoroughly among legions of people, right?!?!

What a disgusting fraud! Law should be an undergraduate degree, taught by adjunct professors/practicing lawyers who will be happy to share their knowledge at a mere $3000 a semester - as a mere supplement to their income. But then again, the ABA prefers "legal scholars" with an abstract knowledge of things.

To the guy who said attorneys and temps have worse hours than a medical resident, you are a straight up moron. The only debt load I can think of that tops lawyers as far as shittiness is doctors and they carry even more student loan debt and 36+ hour shifts. If your lazy ass isn't trying to save people's lives for 36 hours with no sleep, then you need to shut your pie hole.

The lawfirm that advertised this is a joke and a half. The guy who runs it put every conceivable award or honor he has ever received on his website and there are rampant mispellings and grammatical errors all over the place.

Why do we need law schools again? Didn't Lincoln and nearly every attorney prior to 1875 or so just apprentice and take a bar exam? Why is this country so entrenched behind debt financed education? Debt is bad, there is no such thing as good debt. Debt means someone else is clutching your nutsac and do you really want a 3rd party touching your nads?

A group of "leading conservative lawyers" -- a phrase never confused with "U.S. Marines" -- has produced an embarrassingly pompous letter denouncing Liz Cheney for demanding the names of attorneys at the Justice Department who formerly represented Guantanamo detainees.

The letter calls Cheney's demand "shameful," before unleashing this steaming pile of idiocy:

"The American tradition of zealous representation of unpopular clients is at least as old as John Adams' representation of the British soldiers charged in the Boston Massacre."

Yes, but even John Adams didn't take a job with the government for another 19 years after defending the British guards -- who, in 1770, were "the police." He also didn't take a position with the U.S. government that involved processing British murder suspects.

I'd be more interested in hearing about the sacred duty of lawyers to defend "unpopular clients" if we were talking about clients who are unpopular with anyone lawyers know.

Every white shoe law firm in the country has been clamoring to take the cases of Guantanamo detainees, while young associates line up to be put on the case. This is even more fun than defending Ted Bundy!

As The Wall Street Journal put it in a 2007 article, a list of the law firms representing Guantanamo detainees "reads like a who's who of America's most prestigious law firms" -- which conveniently doubles as Santa's "naughty" list.

At least 34 of the 50 largest firms in the United States have performed pro bono work on behalf of Guantanamo detainees.

Years ago, when I nearly died of boredom working for a law firm, I heard whispered rumors about a partner, Michael Tierney, whom none of the female associates wanted to work with because his pro bono work included defending -- gasp! -- pro-life groups. (There was at least one female associate who wanted to work with him!)

I didn't hear a peep about the august "American tradition of zealous representation of unpopular clients" back then.

Like Hollywood actresses, lawyers need to believe they're noble and courageous to help them forget that they are corporate drones doing soul-destroying work, which mostly consists of making photocopies.

Defending terrorists gives status-conscious attorneys a chance to get standing ovations at the annual ABA convention -- much like promoting "global warming" makes climatologists feel like they're saving the world, rather than studying water vapor.

It took me exactly one Nexis search for "ABA," "award" and "Guantanamo" to find that the 2006 "Outstanding Scholar Award" at the ABA annual banquet was given to New York University law professor Anthony G. Amsterdam for his "extensive pro bono practice, litigating cases that range from civil rights claims, to death penalty defense, to claims of access to the courts for the detainees at Guantanamo Bay."

A rule I have is: You're not defending an unpopular client if you're getting awards from the ABA, particularly if the award mentions "courage."

You'll never see a pompous letter like the one attacking Liz Cheney on behalf of any lawyer defending clients who are unpopular with lawyers, which terrorists are not.

Ken Starr, a signatory to the "Please God, Let This Get Me a Good Obituary in The New York Times" letter, once, totally by mistake, had a case unpopular with the establishment: Bill Clinton's impeachment.

He's shown his mettle by saying that if he met Clinton today, he'd say "I'm sorry." Because isn't that what Jesus said? Be very concerned with the opinion of the world!

Speaking of which, I also never heard any testimonials to the sacred duty of lawyers to defend unpopular causes when every lawyer working on the Clinton impeachment was being smeared as a "tobacco lawyer."

Tobacco companies, being wildly unpopular, are in need of a lot of legal services. Scratch any litigator from a big law firm and you'll find someone who, if necessary, could be slimed as a "tobacco lawyer."

You will notice a pattern developing: We only hear paeans to the "American tradition of zealous representation of unpopular clients" when it's being used to defend causes popular with liberals -- serial killers, terrorists and a horny hick who promised to save partial-birth abortion.

Lawyers want to be congratulated for their courage in defending "unpopular" clients, while taking cases that are utterly noncontroversial in their social circles.

They'd be scared to death to take the case of an anti-abortion activist. Defending the guy who killed George Tiller the Baby Killer won't make them a superstar at the next ABA convention.

Not only do Americans have a right to know the legal backgrounds of lawyers setting detainee policy at the Department of Justice, but I personally demand the right not to have to listen to Eddie Haskell lawyers constantly claiming to be Atticus Finch.

I know former in-house counsel (Apple, for one) who are doing solo work and would love to take a job like this in a new area of the law. Some are even looking to be an unpaid intern to get experience to be able to diversify client base. So what's the big deal? Besides, if the people are solo assholes or crazy, then QUIT and do something else.

Oh, that's right. The only other thing that most people on this blog can do is piss and moan about debt, money, and their complete lack of balls/ovaries.

BTW--I just came off a GREAT 3 month project with a mid-level firm. Lots of OT, worked from home, and a firm party almost every other week. Nice attorneys, too. Now I'm back on another project with OT. I work hard, am accurate in coding, professional in demeanor, STILL have time to fritter on the internet occasionally--and I get consistent work. Karma. Imagine that.Anonymous Contract Lawyeranonymouscontractlawyer.blogspot.com

I skimmed through, but I don't see anyone posting that attorneys and temps work more hours than residents, just that doctors have better job opportunities and get paid more during residency than the $10/hr listed for that job posting, which is true.

Also for the doctor debt load, all doctor jobs are considered public service, so it's a 10% cap and loan discharge 10 years out, which is a really sweet deal. If every attorney had the same deal it wouldn't be bad at all, but attorney jobs are not outright considered as public service, and the public service jobs are very hard to come by and pay much less than residency and doctors salaries after residency, so the attorneys don't win there.

I can't believe anybody would argue that the medical field is worse than the legal field. I doubt any doctor would switch with an attorney of the same percentile, maybe the top surgery class would switch with the top law class out of YHS but I'm not even completely sure about that one, but I guess it would be considered. Even the bottom 10% of doctors would never switch with the bottom 10% of attorneys, most of whom are unemployed or wait tables anyway.

re 4:14PM blogger herein....I frankly do not believe one thing you have written, except for the fact your project ended. You probably did not leave law school with much debt, since assumedly mom and dad (or a partner) paid for both undergrad,law school, and a MA or MBA. I possibly was a trust fund, the lottery, or an inheritance. I do not know anyone who is in a financial position able to afford to do as you are advising unless a recent graduate who stupidly is hooking themselves to the deferrment and forebearance trap. If they take that path (to work for $10 an hour or intern for free), the value of their total debt will compound, and in 5-8 years, they will owe 150% more than the original debt, with stagnant or decreasing job market prospects for the next 5-8 years, Thus, they'll shoot themselves in the foot at $10 an hour or by taking an intership for free bc/ the competition is such, that any time spent now doing so will be valued in 5-8 years as de minimus. The only thing that counts in 5-8 years is having a well paying full-time for each of the next 5-8 years and to end up with no debt in 5-8 years, but substantive experience. Other approaches are based on "wishful thinking". I am sorry.

"We only hear paeans to the 'American tradition of zealous representation of unpopular clients' when it's being used to defend causes popular with liberals -- serial killers, terrorists and a horny hick who promised to save partial-birth abortion.

"Lawyers want to be congratulated for their courage in defending 'unpopular' clients, while taking cases that are utterly noncontroversial in their social circles."

What a bunch of silly billies. $10/hour is equal to unemployment benefits in NYC. $400/week won't even buy my water supply of Pelligrino and toilet paper for the month. Who are they kidding? Stuff a sock in it Chicago.

Where is everyone?????Does everyone have the SWINE FLU??Is everyone at TOWN HALL MEETINGS???Is everyone printing money at the FED???Are they snowed under by SNOWMAGGEDON????Where is everyone???? Whatzzzz going on????

Am I the only one concerned about the state of affairs in Templand???? Where is everyone????

Sweet Lordy this guy's web page could give one the impression he is a true man of the people...his firm's logo says in Spanish: "el Derecho del Pueblo"..."the Right of the People."

Shucks, what an altruistic feller. What with giving a person with a Bachelor's Degree, then a Juris Doctor and then hard earned law license $10 a hour and heaps of difficult work to keep them rates way down for his clients 'n such.

Only an assmunch would pay a licensed attorney $10 an hour...maybe a college intern, but not a lawyer. I made almost $10 an hour as a high-schooler stocking shelves when you kids were still eating boogers. This firm must not care that non-recent grads also read Craigslist and these blogs. I believe that how one treats employees speaks volumes as to how one is as a person and a lawyer. The ad doesn't really make for a good reputation.

As has been astutely pointed out, this may be the equivalent of UE benefits in some states. So, would you rather sit idle and collect that amount or get paid that amount to actually learn how to be a lawyer.

You must pay your dues, learn some skills and make some contacts at some point and it will be much easier to do right out of school as opposed to after years of doc review.

@5:08--I agree that taking a $10/hour job to get experience and have no gaps in one's resume would be stupid--if there were tons of jobs in the law out there that paid the sweet money. There aren't. And I don't think too many people would work as an unpaid intern for years (and in California, you can't). So saying that debt load will just continue to increase over 5-8 years while interest is recapitalized misses the point.If you want to be a lawyer, do what it takes to be a lawyer. If you want to make lots of money (or enough to pay back debt), then do what it takes to reach that goal. You may not be able to do both.And fwiw, I don't care if you personally believe anything about my personal history or current experience.anonymouscontractlawyer.blogspot.com

Become a Certified Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA). They earn more than family doctors and they can temp for $100 an hour. They put those hundreds of losers on the EP Slime gig earning twenty five bucks an hour to shame.

I think some of the pro "you'll get legal experience" posters here are really missing the point. The point is that the field is indeed crowded, but there is no justification whatsoever to be a prick and try to take advantage of a heavily indebted recent graduate and pay them the same as Burger King. It's greedy and amoral. Based on their website, the firm has quite a few offices. I'm sure for a shitlaw practice they're doing just fine and could afford to pay their "research attorney" more than $19,200 a year.

It's bad enough that we are in this sinking boat but people are still brainwashing themselves that you "can't" pay "professionals" $10.

I have news for you yes, they can and are. Most solos I know hire interns and pay them nothing. They have them run around for experience and say at least that way they can open their own practice in 1-2 years.

People here still think of themselves as doctoral degrees in the law and counselors at the bar, and are idiots. They cannot even face reality.

Even if the market is crowded, there is no sense in wasting your time taking a $10 an hour position, as a professional, instead of "paying yourself" the $10 per hour by aggressively and efficiently using the time tosearch daily for a permanent job. That endeavor is not remaining idle. There are too many people presently in NYC who are interning for free while on UE....from a competitive standpoint, they are not using their time searching for jobs, so might as well exploit that, and try to find the permanent positions while they are busy interning for free. It is a pure numbers game. If after sending out 700 resumes, and interviewing regularly for 6 months, nothing comes your way, then it is just better to find a management position to pay off the debt or move to another state...the ROI on interning for free in NYC, unless it is in the DAs office, is pretty low, and there are too many people doing the same, making it impossible to distinquish one self. Sorry.

How much experience do you think you can get at a place that won't pay you a decent wage or won't pay you at all? If you don't value your own services then how will anyone else value them either?

A lot of places want a salary history, what do you think they will think when your salary history is unpaid? They'll think the work you did was so useless that it wasn't worth anything, and that you aren't capable of producing quality work for them either.

I interned for the DA myself and it didn't lead me to a job. I hated taking that internship but I didn't have any paying internships that summer, so I didn't really have a choice. That was in law school where you're given more leeway for not getting a paid internship.

Do you people think every volunteer at a hospital makes it to medical school? That's just absurd, the ones that make it to medical school are the ones that are doing paid research, not the ones volunteering no matter how great of a volunteer they are.

If you look hard enough, you can at least get paid per diem work, which is better than an unpaid internship and which fills the same role on a resume. Do a good job and you get a good reference and recommendation, and since it's per diem you have the time to search for jobs when there is invariably no work, or if business somehow picks up you get pulled in, which I wouldn't hold my breath on at any rate.

Now you can't BLAME anyone for offering free internships or a very low wage. Anyone can make any offer, nobody is forced to take any of these. The guy making the offer is probably barely scraping by himself, I think some of you just don't understand how rough it is right now, and how much overhead and salaries cut into profits. That $10 salary doesn't show you how much the employer has to pay in taxes and other benefits. It's not really an excuse but it's the truth, if you're making $40k a year as a shitlaw attorney running your own office, which is probably not that bad right now since a lot of firms have closed up, then you can't afford much to hire anybody.

My advice is nobody take anything under $30/hr in the legal field, if you're willing to take a lower salary go find another field to be in. Law is not worth it for less than that, it's too stressful of a field.

1:08PM comment....Right on, that IS the point! Just look at the DAs offices in Manhattan, Queens, and Brooklyn, not to mention the Court Attorney staff offices for NYSSCt in all boroughs. Filled with graduates willing to work for free, and willing to enter the land of law school deferrment and forebearance - unless mom, dad, a partner, or a trustfund is backing them. That said, the preceding offices, including NYC Law Department, are filled with former BigLaw Associates willing to work for free, as well. Question, just where are they going after their free internships? How long can they defer and forebear, and just how long will the former Associates' UE last?

The former associates' unemployment compensation will last for as long as yours will last. At this point, the answer seems to be "til the end of time" with all the various extensions. I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad thing. People need safety nets.

Congress just actually passed another deadline extension this week. So yea, you can wait a while for the UE train to roll into its last stop. The good news is, you'll still get it. The bad news is, so will everyone else. It is what it is, ya know?

What gets me is this guy's comparison to a Medical Residency. There are a few differences, to say the least.

My gf is a 3d yr resident now. But she earns $61,000/yr, not $10/hr.

There's also the issue that she was placed in her position directly by her medical school. And the issue that her medical residency is at a university medical center, not at a tiny, low-grade private practice.

"CLOSE ALL 3RD TIER LAW SCHOOLS AND YOU WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF LAWYER GLUT...HOFSTRA, TOURO, NY LAW THESE ARE ALL CRAP SCHOOLS ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!"

I wish I could disagree. I used to dismiss such comments as just obnoxious. But there's some truth to them. I went to a decent school (consistently ranked in the 30s) and still have only gotten a job in corporate compliance (not as a lawyer) nearly two years after graduating. I would've been much better off not going to law school.

The "Katz" firm? $10 per hour...Hmmmm.... And you want to blame the law profs, law schools, corporations and faceless entities for what certain types of wicked PEOPLE are doing to you mud people. Jeesh!

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"Does anyone get the impression there are 100 times more lawyers than needed, obviating all the B.S. above?"

The problem is, this is the wrong perspective. It doesn't matter how MANY lawyers there are; what matters is how many people out there are more employable than you are.

This is going to sound nasty, but it's not meant to be: you just can't blame your lack of employment and/or professional dissatisfaction on the fact that third-tier law schools (or third-tier lawyers) exist. If you were more worth hiring than they were, then you'd be a working lawyer and they wouldn't be. It's that simple.

You make your own opportunities in life. School doesn't define you. A law license doesn't define you. The majority of you guys are sitting on a website complaining and blaming everything under the sun for your unhappiness but yourselves.

Don't take it personally-- just change your perspective, make your opportunities, be patient, and make yourself indispensable.

As a young lawyer, I have often lamented to my wife that I should have went to medical school rather than be a lawyer. That was until we were in the hospital together one day with our son and overheard a young resident lamenting to a friend that he is broke, cannot buy a house, and has rediculous debt. Found it quite ironic indeed.

I work at a small law firm in Chicago and have been making $10.50 an hour as a undergraduate student who hasn't even graduated yet. I am doing the exact same work. $10 an hour certainly isn't market rate. This poster is delusional.

I worked for this guy (Katz) a while back. He has a Napoleonic complex and does not know the law. You would be better off making $10 an hour shoveling after horses than being a glorified slave. You would not learn anything he doesn't know anything!!!

A solo female lawyer was very enthusiastic to hire me. Based on her location, I assumed she was charging $150-200 per hour. She was very nice and said that she was very busy with her practice.

I was very excited about working for her but never really talked about salary. She just kept on bringing up that she was very busy and we would work great together. I asked her the hours she said 8-6pm daily and then half-days on Saturday to catch-up. I was eager until she told me the salary $24,000 (before TAXES!). In my mind I thought I could make more if I mowed her lawn.

I know a guy who is a landscaper and he makes $50,000 a year and only works 8 months; and he is a pothead.

For those who say that the glut in lawyers doesn't matter to those who are able to "distinguish" themselves. The same could be said of being a Hollywood movie star. The takeaway would be the same: that succeeding in the profession is NOT just a matter of working hard, but of winning a long shot lottery IN ADDITION TO working hard and having the talent. Also, the reason doctors make so much more is partially due to the fact that the number of slots in medical school is limited.

Chances are, this attorney is just scraping by. If you're doing well, you typically don't want a person who needs to be waiting tables and selling blood to make ends meet - you want to pay people enough that they can work for you undistracted. If his business implodes, there goes the recommendation.