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I want to pick a fight with a defender of this occupation and war. I want them to explain to me how these quotes:

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." - Dick Cheney, August 26 2002

"If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world." - Ari Fleischer, December 2 2002

"We know for a fact that there are weapons there." - Ari Fleischer, January 9 2003

"We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more." - Colin Powell, February 5 2003

"Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes." - Ari Fleischer, March 21 2003

"There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. As this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them." - Gen. Tommy Franks, March 22 2003

"We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad." - Donald Rumsfeld, March 30 2003

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons." - George W. Bush, September 12 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." - George W. Bush, State of the Union address, January 28 2003

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons." - George Bush, February 8 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." - George Bush, March 17 2003

...dovetail with this quote...

"We had a good discussion, the foreign minister and I and the president and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was 10 years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors." - Colin Powell, February 24 2001

I want to mash that into some Bush-sucking fool's face, make them choke on it...or better yet, make them explain it.

I want to pick a fight with some Bush-sucking fool and try to make them explain away the Office of Special Plans:

The agency, called the Office of Special Plans (OSP), was set up by the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, to second-guess CIA information and operated under the patronage of hardline conservatives in the top rungs of the administration, the Pentagon and at the White House, including Vice-President Dick Cheney. The ideologically driven network functioned like a shadow government, much of it off the official payroll and beyond congressional oversight. But it proved powerful enough to prevail in a struggle with the State Department and the CIA by establishing a justification for war.

(snip)

The president's most trusted adviser, Mr Cheney, was at the shadow network's sharp end. He made several trips to the CIA in Langley, Virginia, to demand a more "forward-leaning" interpretation of the threat posed by Saddam. When he was not there to make his influence felt, his chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was. Such hands-on involvement in the processing of intelligence data was unprecedented for a vice-president in recent times, and it put pressure on CIA officials to come up with the appropriate results. Another frequent visitor was Newt Gingrich, the former Republican party leader who resurfaced after September 11 as a Pentagon "consultant" and a member of its unpaid defence advisory board, with influence far beyond his official title.

(snip)

Democratic congressman David Obey, who is investigating the OSP, said: "That office was charged with collecting, vetting and disseminating intelligence completely outside of the normal intelligence apparatus. In fact, it appears that information collected by this office was in some instances not even shared with established intelligence agencies and in numerous instances was passed on to the national security council and the president without having been vetted with anyone other than political appointees."

...more...

==================

I want to pick a fight with some Bush-sucking fool and try to make them explain away Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski:

==================

War Critics Zero In on Pentagon OfficeBy Jim LobeInter Press Service News Agency

On most days, the Pentagon's 'Early Bird', a daily compilation of news articles on defence-related issues mostly from the U.S. and British press, does not shy from reprinting hard-hitting stories and columns critical of the Defence Department's top leadership. But few could help notice last week that the 'Bird' omitted an opinion piece distributed by the Knight-Ridder news agency by a senior Pentagon Middle East specialist, Air Force Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, who worked in the office of Under Secretary of Defence for Policy Douglas Feith until her retirement in April.

"What I saw was aberrant, pervasive and contrary to good order and discipline," Kwiatkowski wrote. "If one is seeking the answers to why peculiar bits of 'intelligence' found sanctity in a presidential speech, or why the post-Saddam (Hussein) occupation (in Iraq) has been distinguished by confusion and false steps, one need look no further than the process inside the Office of the Secretary of Defence" (OSD). Kwiatkowski went on to charge that the operations she witnessed during her tenure in Feith's office, and particularly those of an ad hoc group known as the Office of Special Plans (OSP), constituted "a subversion of constitutional limits on executive power and a co-optation through deceit of a large segment of the Congress".

Kwiatkowski's charges, which tend to confirm reports and impressions offered to the press by retired officers from other intelligence agencies and their still-active but anonymous former colleagues, are likely to make her a prime witness when Congress reconvenes in September for hearings on the manipulation of intelligence to justify war against Iraq. According to Kwiatkowski, the same operation that allegedly cooked the intelligence also was responsible for the administration's failure to anticipate the problems that now dog the U.S. occupation in Iraq, or, in her more colourful words, that have placed 150,000 U.S. troops in "the world's nastiest rat's nest, without a nation-building plan, without significant international support and without an exit plan".

...more...

====================

I want to pick a fight with some Bush-sucking fool and try to make them explain away:

Army Spc. Isaac Campoy, 21, of Douglas, Ariz.; assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, Fort Hood, Texas; killed when his tank was hit with an improvised explosive device on Oct. 28 in Baqubah, Iraq.

Army Sgt. Aubrey D. Bell, 33, of Tuskegee, Ala.; assigned to the 214th Military Police Company, Alabama National Guard; killed in action on Oct. 27 at Al Bayra Police Station in Baghdad, when his unit came under small arms fire and an improvised explosive device detonated.

Army Pfc. Paul J. Bueche, 19, of Daphne, Ala.; assigned to the 131st Aviation Regiment, Army National Guard, Birmingham, Ala.; killed Oct. 21 when a tire he was changing on a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter exploded in Balad, Iraq.

Army Staff Sgt. Paul J. Johnson, 29, of Calumet, Mich.; assigned to 1st Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, N.C.; killed Oct. 20 while on mounted patrol when the vehicle in which he was riding hit an improvised explosive device and then came under small-arms fire by enemy forces in Fallujah, Iraq.

Army Spc. Michael L. Williams, 46, of Buffalo, N.Y.; assigned to the 105th Military Police Company, Army National Guard, based in New York; killed in action Oct. 17 when his vehicle ran over an improvised explosive device near Baghdad.

Staff Sgt. Joseph P. Bellavia, 28, of Wakefield, Mass.; assigned to the 716th Military Police Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), based in Fort Campbell, Ky.; killed while attempting to negotiate with armed men who were congregating on a road near a mosque after curfew on Oct. 16 in Karbala, Iraq. Also killed in the attack were Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, the commanding officer of the 716th, and Cpl. Sean R. Grilley. Seven other U.S. soldiers were wounded.

Cpl. Sean R. Grilley, 24, of San Bernardino, Calif.; assigned to the 716th Military Police Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), based in Fort Campbell, Ky.; killed while attempting to negotiate with armed men who were congregating on a road near a mosque after curfew on Oct. 16 in Karbala, Iraq. Also killed in the attack were Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, the commanding officer of the 716th, and Staff Sgt. Joseph P. Bellavia. Seven other U.S. soldiers were wounded.

Army Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, 43, of Tennessee; commanding officer of the 716th Military Police Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), based in Fort Campbell, Ky.; killed while attempting to negotiate with armed men who were congregating on a road near a mosque after curfew on Oct. 16 in Karbala, Iraq.

Also killed in the attack were Staff Sgt. Joseph P. Bellavia and Cpl. Sean R. Grilley. Seven other U.S. soldiers were wounded.

Army Pfc. Jose Casanova, 23, of El Monte, Calif.; assigned to Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, based in Fort Bragg, N.C.; died Oct. 13 in Baghdad when an Iraqi dump truck swerved and rolled over on top of his Humvee.

Army Pvt. Benjamin L. Freeman, 19, of Valdosta, Ga.; assigned to K Troop, 3rd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, based in Fort Carson, Colo.; drowned Oct. 13 near Asad, Iraq. Soldiers from his unit had been searching for Freeman when they discovered him floating on the surface of the water near Haditha dam.

Army Spc. Douglas J. Weismantle, 28, of Pittsburgh; assigned to Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne, Fort Bragg, N.C.; died Oct. 13 in Baghdad when an Iraqi dump truck swerved and rolled over on top of his Humvee.

Army Spc. Spencer T. Karol, 20, of Woodruff, Ariz.; assigned to the 165th Military Intelligence, V Corps, Darmstadt, Germany; killed while on a mission to observe enemy activity when a command-detonated device exploded, overturning his vehicle, on Oct. 6 in Ramadi, Iraq.

Army Command Sgt. Maj. James D. Blankenbecler, 40, of Alexandria, Va.; assigned to 1st Battalion, 44th Air Defense Artillery Regiment, Fort Hood, Texas; killed while riding in a convoy that was hit by an improvised explosive device and rocket-propelled grenades on Oct. 1 in Samarra, Iraq.

Army Pfc. Analaura Esparza Gutierrez, 21, of Houston, Texas; assigned to A Company, 4th Forward Support Battalion, Fort Hood, Texas; killed while riding in a convoy that was hit by an improvised explosive device and rocket propelled grenades on Oct. 1 in Tikrit.

I want to pick a fight, oh dear God do I want to pick a fight. I want to hear some Bush-sucking fool stammer through some rationale about September 11 and enemies who hate our freedom. I will boat that person like a marlin, gut them, and hang them on my wall.

Bring it on, fools. My job is making you weep, breaking you, defeating you, ending you. I am the heavyweight champion in my weight class. I am undefeated. I will waste you. Lay you low. I will finish you.

im certainly not conservative but i can tell what one can easily argue

THEY DESTROYED THE WMD'S BEFORE ANYONE COULD FIND THEM.

that would not have been impossible considering how efficient a dictatorship country can be. saddam would have known exactly where they were and could have made arrangements to have them all destroyed in a highly quick and efficient manner. clearly there is an underground movement still going on so even if there were some they didnt get to, they would have got to them soon enough.

youre not proving anything with your cut-and-paste jobs, as inspired as they may be.

Thats not a strong arguement, its clutching at straws really. Explain why Saddam would have destroyed them. Say what you like about the man but he is not stupid. What would he have actually had to gain from destroying his weapons that he had worked so hard to gain. Also, you need to explain why US intelligence regarding Iraq changed so radically in little over 12 months.

While the asshole who wrote that first section is talking to those he lists, he should speak to these as well......

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destrution and palaces for his cronies." Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force ? if necessary ? to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do." Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ... Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

Credit this list to wingnutx

--------------------You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

I dont see any relevance unless you actually think that two party politics actually means something? I think the Democrats and Repubnlicans are the same beasts with slightly different hairstyles. Same goes for the tories and the labour over here.

I dispise the way the administration went about this whole thing but I thnk getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do. Even if you don't think his humanitarian record is reason enough I would think that some of you greenies would want him dead because of his environmental terrorism. I don't think any one person has made a bigger anti-contribution to either of these areas.

Here is the intelligence that I've gathered, without being privy to (recently) any top secret information

1) Saddam Hussein HAD chemical weapons. This obvious. I find it interesting that the main liberal claim is "Saddam never had chemical weapons, but we sold them to him". Gotta be one or the other. Saddam used chemical weapons against the Kurds and against the Iranians.

2) Saddam Hussein violated three UN Security Council resolutions that were put in place to ensure that he did NOT have these weapons. He constantly was limiting the UN inspectors in their task, and ultimatly banned them from refusing to enter the country.

3) AFTER using the WMD's that we know he had, after violating three UN security council resolutions, and after kicking out UN inspectors, then, he claimed, did he destroy the weapons.

Using those three key pieces of factual knowledge, what would make us belive that he did destroy them? Especially since, in the months before the war, we DID find bannedweapons?

If the intelligence that they were operating on was flawed, you certaintly can't blame them for it. Bush wasn't out snooping around in IRaq as a CIA intel officer/agent, so he only operated on the information he was given. Since all of the info we knew, factually, was that saddam had teh WMd's, and had used them in the past, and refused to prove or demonstrate otherwise, what logical conclusion would you have drawn? Trusted Mr Hussein?

Also, you gave saddam 12 years + to hide all of the weapons, and you won't even give us a year to find them?

I'd like to ask a question for all liberals here. Lets say that in December, MASSIVE caches of WMD's are located in Iraq. Will you then come on here and apologize for being Anti-war, and shift yor position on it? OR will you find some other reason to BushBash? Sadly, I think we all know the answer.

--------------------In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Army Spc. Isaac Campoy, 21, of Douglas, Ariz.; assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, Fort Hood, Texas; killed when his tank was hit with an improvised explosive device on Oct. 28 in Baqubah, Iraq.

Army Sgt. Aubrey D. Bell, 33, of Tuskegee, Ala.; assigned to the 214th Military Police Company, Alabama National Guard; killed in action on Oct. 27 at Al Bayra Police Station in Baghdad, when his unit came under small arms fire and an improvised explosive device detonated.

Army Pfc. Paul J. Bueche, 19, of Daphne, Ala.; assigned to the 131st Aviation Regiment, Army National Guard, Birmingham, Ala.; killed Oct. 21 when a tire he was changing on a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter exploded in Balad, Iraq.

Army Staff Sgt. Paul J. Johnson, 29, of Calumet, Mich.; assigned to 1st Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, N.C.; killed Oct. 20 while on mounted patrol when the vehicle in which he was riding hit an improvised explosive device and then came under small-arms fire by enemy forces in Fallujah, Iraq.

Army Spc. Michael L. Williams, 46, of Buffalo, N.Y.; assigned to the 105th Military Police Company, Army National Guard, based in New York; killed in action Oct. 17 when his vehicle ran over an improvised explosive device near Baghdad.

Staff Sgt. Joseph P. Bellavia, 28, of Wakefield, Mass.; assigned to the 716th Military Police Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), based in Fort Campbell, Ky.; killed while attempting to negotiate with armed men who were congregating on a road near a mosque after curfew on Oct. 16 in Karbala, Iraq. Also killed in the attack were Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, the commanding officer of the 716th, and Cpl. Sean R. Grilley. Seven other U.S. soldiers were wounded.

Cpl. Sean R. Grilley, 24, of San Bernardino, Calif.; assigned to the 716th Military Police Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), based in Fort Campbell, Ky.; killed while attempting to negotiate with armed men who were congregating on a road near a mosque after curfew on Oct. 16 in Karbala, Iraq. Also killed in the attack were Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, the commanding officer of the 716th, and Staff Sgt. Joseph P. Bellavia. Seven other U.S. soldiers were wounded.

Army Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, 43, of Tennessee; commanding officer of the 716th Military Police Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), based in Fort Campbell, Ky.; killed while attempting to negotiate with armed men who were congregating on a road near a mosque after curfew on Oct. 16 in Karbala, Iraq.

Also killed in the attack were Staff Sgt. Joseph P. Bellavia and Cpl. Sean R. Grilley. Seven other U.S. soldiers were wounded.

Army Pfc. Jose Casanova, 23, of El Monte, Calif.; assigned to Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, based in Fort Bragg, N.C.; died Oct. 13 in Baghdad when an Iraqi dump truck swerved and rolled over on top of his Humvee.

Army Pvt. Benjamin L. Freeman, 19, of Valdosta, Ga.; assigned to K Troop, 3rd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, based in Fort Carson, Colo.; drowned Oct. 13 near Asad, Iraq. Soldiers from his unit had been searching for Freeman when they discovered him floating on the surface of the water near Haditha dam.

Army Spc. Douglas J. Weismantle, 28, of Pittsburgh; assigned to Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne, Fort Bragg, N.C.; died Oct. 13 in Baghdad when an Iraqi dump truck swerved and rolled over on top of his Humvee.

Army Spc. Spencer T. Karol, 20, of Woodruff, Ariz.; assigned to the 165th Military Intelligence, V Corps, Darmstadt, Germany; killed while on a mission to observe enemy activity when a command-detonated device exploded, overturning his vehicle, on Oct. 6 in Ramadi, Iraq.

Army Command Sgt. Maj. James D. Blankenbecler, 40, of Alexandria, Va.; assigned to 1st Battalion, 44th Air Defense Artillery Regiment, Fort Hood, Texas; killed while riding in a convoy that was hit by an improvised explosive device and rocket-propelled grenades on Oct. 1 in Samarra, Iraq.

Army Pfc. Analaura Esparza Gutierrez, 21, of Houston, Texas; assigned to A Company, 4th Forward Support Battalion, Fort Hood, Texas; killed while riding in a convoy that was hit by an improvised explosive device and rocket propelled grenades on Oct. 1 in Tikrit.

I want to pick a fight, oh dear God do I want to pick a fight. I want to hear some Bush-sucking fool stammer through some rationale about September 11 and enemies who hate our freedom. I will boat that person like a marlin, gut them, and hang them on my wall.

Bring it on, fools. My job is making you weep, breaking you, defeating you, ending you. I am the heavyweight champion in my weight class. I am undefeated. I will waste you. Lay you low. I will finish you.

Come on. Pick a fight with me.

You are an absolute idiot. Why dont' you tell me how many of those men were drafted, and how many of them volunteered to join the branch they serve in?

--------------------In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

william rivers pitt's concern is touching, but i'm afraid that it's really misplaced.

US troops have been sent out to die for lesser reasons in the past, and no one was forced to join the military any time recently. anyone who joins the military acknowledges that their body is property of the state and that their life is expendable in service not just to america's defense, but to almost any interests at all that it may have.

the soldiers in iraq volunteered, and unless they were totally ignorant of the past century of US history, they knew that when you join the military, you may be called up to fight and possibly die for causes unrelated to national defense.

the day they institute the draft will be the day pitt has a place to complain about military casualties.

now... lets talk about the taxpayers. i know i didn't volunteer any support for this war. did you? where's our $87,000,000,000?

nice, but you ignore a nice little gap there between late1999 and the spring of 2001 where colin powell ANDcondoleeza rice both stated publicly that there was noproof that sadaam was still pursuing weapons and wasno longer considered a threat to national security.

furthermore, the last half of that list of quotes is laughablewhen you consider that those senators were basing theirstatements on the administraiton's bogus information.

--------------------All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

Quote: Thats not a strong arguement, its clutching at straws really. Explain why Saddam would have destroyed them. Say what you like about the man but he is not stupid. What would he have actually had to gain from destroying his weapons that he had worked so hard to gain. Also, you need to explain why US intelligence regarding Iraq changed so radically in little over 12 months.

why would he have destroyed him? well imagine if we had gone in to iraq and a few days later found massive amounts of wmds. don't you think the french, german and the rest of the world would be a bit more supportive of the effort? don't you think there would be less iraqi resistance? that it would look less like an imperial invasion?

as for luvdemshrooms' quotations he likes to put up about how democrats were threatening to use force against iraq
1) its not like anyone said the democrats were some peace-loving hippie party that doesnt use force. look at bosnia, clinton convinced the rest of the world to let him do air strikes.
2) i dont think anyone (anyone sane that is) is arguing that you should never use force. even the dalai lama supports using force when in the appropriate time and manner. anti-war people are mainly arguing that it wasnt the right time because a) we didnt have enough evidence to go in at that point and b) most importantly, we didnt have enough countries on our side yet (whereas clinton HAD when going into bosnia).

didn't clintons half-assing in Bosnia and Africa cause a good deal of American servicemen to die?

--------------------In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Quote: didn't clintons half-assing in Bosnia and Africa cause a good deal of American servicemen to die?

funny you should say that, as a matter of fact, no, it cause ZERO deaths, bosnia was a 100-day air raid. to my knowledge its the only flawless i.e. no fatalities miltary victory in history. thank you for solidifying my point, i forgot to mention that. :-)

--------------------In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.