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I think if people knew more about most of the meat (ish) products they're eating, they might not be quite so keen to eat them. Speaking of which, here's a cartoon I happened across today, sort of Charlie and the Sausage Factory:

Macrobiotics = Vegetarianism is a false statement.Veganism = National Diet is a false statement

Therefore the statement "Macrobiotics is an extreme form of vegan, in that it's based on one national diet." is completely false, with all due respect, of course...

There are 7 levels of the macrobiotic diet based specifically on the balance of yin/yang needed to treat symptomatic, a-symptomatic and non-symptomatic (daily dietary) issues. (note: this is not the Kushi version of the macrobiotic, which for reasons I won't go into is not recommended).

Several typical mistakes made about macrobiotics are that:

a. One may not consume any meat (that it is vegetarianism)
b. One may not consume any alcohol
c. One may only consume brown rice
d. that raw foods are macrobiotic (raw food is not basically healthy at all)
e. that macrobiotics has only to do with food (like aikido is only about waza)

Reason: according to the macrobiotic approach, vegetarianism is a not only not correct, it borders on sickness. As such, according to the macrobiotic approach, veganism borders on a mental disorder.

I would be interested in reading comments from someone who practices both and seeing if both ways complement each other.

Of course, everything is relative. Aikido and seishoku (macrobiotics) are both based upon relatives (balance of yin/yang) within the body and without.

One of the specific reasons that I embarked on the path of macrobiotics was as a result of an interview I conducted with both Seiseki Abe Sensei and Shiro Matsuoka Sensei (Former Head of Japan Macrobiotics Association). This interview focused on the diet of O-Sensei, and how it related to Aikido. O-Sensei was not macrobiotic, but he did not eat meat at all. There is a relationship between the balancing of yin/yang to the acidity/alkalinity of the blood and body. There is a direct correlation between the blood and the oxygen/CO2 exchange within the body. Both the blood and the balance of Oxygen/CO2 are directly related to brain function. Brain function can be a major determining factor in the physical aspects and physical levels of the brain/body connection leading to a deeper level of sensitivity of the mind/body connection. However on a non-physical level, the mind as the seat of the spiritual engine within the body is directly connected with what one puts in their body. This is both a basic and very advanced teaching, one that deserves a serious undertaking by anyone hoping to discover O-Sensei's Takemusu Aiki. It also is the key to unlocking the process of Masakatsu-Agatsu-Katsuhayahi, as it is related to budo, and specifically how and why it creates the absolute difference between aikido and all other forms of martial arts.

As for my own personal experiences, the changes that I made to my diet directly influenced both how I think and how I approach martial arts and Aikido. It also dramatically altered my ability to control my breathing which is the cornerstone of even entry level aikido.

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Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 11-12-2005 at 05:56 AM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

Vegetarianism has everything to do with Aikido...if it matters to you. To me it does...to others, it might not. Still, they do Aikido.

Christianity and Aikido is relatively meaningless to me as a Buddhist but interesting to me as a human who wonders why and how people make their choices...which somewhat borders on the randori of life ;-)

Getting back to your original post if you want something that will prevent you falling off the wagon...or for that matter convey what most people prefer to remain in ignorance of...mainly how the poor animals are treated prior to arriving in a supermarket bag looking all nice and tasty is to check out the PETA website and some of the videos within....

Curious, what "certain things"? I have been a vegetarian for 5 years, the benefits I can tell you have outweighed the minuses for me.

Cholesterol, Weight control, better mental state as I am not as conflicted over the in-human treatment of many animals, athletic performance has not suffered in the least. Heck, I am 40 years old and still can run a 6 minute mile pace!

So just curious what are the downsides that you see.

This is not to say that eating meat is necessarily wrong or unhealthy for YOU. Just that I don't necessarily agree with those that say vegetarism is "unheathly".

Curious, what "certain things"? I have been a vegetarian for 5 years, the benefits I can tell you have outweighed the minuses for me.

Hi Kevin,

I do believe that you misunderstood my previous post. I was referring to whether veganism is a cause or a symptom... So as to clarify my prior post, I would say that veganism causes certain disorders, but is the symptom of other disorders.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

So just curious what are the downsides that you see.

Well if this were to be a vegan or macrobiotic forum, I might be more inclined to elaborate...

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

This is not to say that eating meat is necessarily wrong or unhealthy for YOU. Just that I don't necessarily agree with those that say vegetarism is "unheathly".

Well personally I find eating meat to be both wrong and unhealthy on many levels. However, neither of those two issues have anything to do with the reason I stopped eating all meat more than 15 years ago. Further, while I recognize the sanctity with all living things, I have no real affinity for cows, pigs or the like, nor have any issues with how they live or die in order to feed those unconscious enough to be eating them.

Having said all that, while I may not care to partake, if people want to eat meat, I gladly cook them the best (organic) steak, burger, chicken ...etc. right on the barbeque I keep just outside of my dojo...

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I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

I think everything must be done in moderation. I do still wear leather shoes and the like. I personally admire those that can abstain and have enough fortitude to forgo any direct participation of any kind through the practice of veganism. I personally find that the middle road approach works best for me.

I try to not buy shoes on a whim, and when there is an alternative to leather etc, I do that...however, I think you can get too extreme in your convictions to the point that you lose balance and the relationship between you, the world, and your practies become "unhealthy".

It is different for everyone, and not for me or anyone else to judge...personal choice.

On one extreme, Jainism, attempts to not cause any harm to any organism to the point of wearing mask and sweeping the ground before they walk...however, the duality of this is that at some level, the fact that you simply live causes other things to die.

It is all about maintaining the yin/yang or balance. that point is different for everyone.

I do believe that you misunderstood my previous post. I was referring to whether veganism is a cause or a symptom... So as to clarify my prior post, I would say that veganism causes certain disorders, but is the symptom of other disorders.

wait. i was talking about the statement that veganism bordered on mental disorder. that to me is wild statement with no way to test. we may be getting off topic here (and i know you didn't take that position yourself), but how could that be? is it a symptom of mental disorder or a cause?

wait. i was talking about the statement that veganism bordered on mental disorder. that to me is wild statement with no way to test. we may be getting off topic here
ps - how you doing Shaun? been a while.

Hi James,

Some things require a test, some don't. As an example, while I could create a test to see if you are hungry, I really don't need to. For one, you could say that you are not hungry, all while chow-ing down on a half a dozen burritos from Taco Bell. Were you hungry? You said no, but when I look something else becomes obvious. Second, you could say that you are starving, yet after eating three bites of your first burrito, you could push back from the table and say you're are stuffed. Again, having said one thing, something else becomes obvious. When it comes to mental disorders, while there are many tests, and while they aren't simply pass/fail, some things become obvious when one knows where and how to look...

Quote:

James Kelly wrote:

...and i know you didn't take that position yourself), but how could that be?

Actually, while I may not have appeared to take that position, I have observed it to be quite true over the past 15 years. If we should ever have the chance to have a beer together, I will tell you some stories to back up my thinking on this matter.

Quote:

James Kelly wrote:

is it a symptom of mental disorder or a cause?

I did try to clarify that a post or two ago....

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I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

Yes... to keep in balance I eat as many female babies as I do male babies. What is more, they must be nutritionally good for me because they are made from the same thing as I am.

I'm just trying to make a point that butch arguments for not being vegetarian are usually philosophically unsound. I would agree that humans are omnivorous and would be expected to eat meat during most of our evolution (on rare occasions - you try catching it in the wild without a rifle!). However unfortunately with affluence and technology animal welfare has tended to get worse.

As you've guessed, I'm also an eater of only 'free-range' meat - coincidently a friend dropped off a live chicken for me this morning to eat. My philosophical standpoint is that, given a wealthy society:

we should give animals a similar quality of life or better than that which they would have in the wild

i.e. they usually live quite happy lives, although they often die quite grusome deaths. Plato said we will exploit that which we have power over. Now, I wouldn't say exploitation is definitively wrong, but persecuting animals is no worse than denying women the vote or endorsing slavery. Indeed, when we wonder how people could ever have kept slaves we can probably understand how people will think in the future about the way we treat some animals (e.g. battery hens). Similarly arguments for animal eperimentation usually revolve around animals being more stupid than us. Well, babies are more stupid than many animals, so why don't we breed babies for experiments instead?

There was a buddhist (Alan Watts?) who said that he was vegetarian, but if someone gave him meat he would eat it "because the animal was dead but the host wasn't." Personally I think that argument is also quite stupid, and could also be used to justify canabilism or many other extreme practises (would you not turn someone down who wanted to bugger you for fear of offending them?)

SO what has it got to do with aikido? I think many aikidoka are drawn to aikido because there is a notion of love and compassion behind this martial art - and thus leads to a philosophical investigation. Similarly there is a philosophy of compassion behind christianity and often behind vegetarianism.

P.S. and whatever anyone says, vegetarians can live healthily without meat (indeed incidence of colon cancer is 40% less in vegetarians, although interestingly colesterol levels are usually the same) - it is just energetically more difficult for your body to produce the essential amino acids.

I started aikido and stopped eating meat on the same day so for me they're forever linked.

Right on, I started aikido and stopped smoking on the same day... so I've got a link of my own. I also stopped caffeine the same day (I still do tea). I was going to go for the trifecta and go veggie* again at the same time, but I thought my head would explode. The nicotine withdrawal has been bad enough on its own.

Once again I just want to say that I'm really happy with all the different perspectives I'm hearing in this thread. Also, I never was trying to imply that Aikido was only for vegetarians... just looking for different perspectives on the link between the two.

There was a buddhist (Alan Watts?) who said that he was vegetarian, but if someone gave him meat he would eat it "because the animal was dead but the host wasn't." Personally I think that argument is also quite stupid, and could also be used to justify canabilism or many other extreme practises (would you not turn someone down who wanted to bugger you for fear of offending them?)

This is actually standard practice for many Buddhist monks. The practice for monks in many sects is to live off of the charity of others (practiced less often these days). If someone offers to fill your bowl, you accept it humbly, no matter what it is. You have to excuse my ignorance of not knowing what buggering is (despite my Irish name), but I assume it is not a form of charity and hence can be refused. Though, if you are living by a strict code, I suppose you might have to accept even that.

This is also the way I live (not the buggering part). I used to be very strict about being vegetarian. People had to jump through all kinds of hoops over the holidays. At some point I realized that I was making more waves by putting them out than I was by consuming a little meat each year so I shifted.

As to cannibalism: well, I don't hang with too many cannibals if you know what I mean so the chances of being served man meat are slim...

I know quite a few vegetarians. I know all but two of them through Aikido. I became a vegetarian five years ago, after several years of Aikido.
Not sure that that means anything, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Ok. Here is a quick question to all those vegetarians out there. If, as many vegetarians do, you do not make a distinction between the human life and animal life when using the "life is sacred" argument for adopting a vegetarian lifestyle, why then does "life" not include plants? I mean no disrespect by the question - it's just one of those things that has always seemed somewhat contradictory to me. If the reason you are a vegetarian is because you value life then does plant life have no value? Any thoughts comments (again I mean no offense).