clrkbar wrote:But why, Goatboy? What does your faith in that small amount of evidence have to offer you? Even if evolution and the big bang had all the evidence in the world, what would be gained by believing it?

What do you gain by knowing that 2 + 2 = 4? What do you gain by knowing how gravity works, or how cells divide? I should not have even used the word "believe" when talking about science. People "believe" in God, but I "know" facts. So let's settle on this: I won't say I believe in science if you won't say you know God exists.

clrkbar wrote:But why, Goatboy? What does your faith in that small amount of evidence have to offer you? Even if evolution and the big bang had all the evidence in the world, what would be gained by believing it?

There's some evidence. If you want more, google for it - or better yet, read a science textbook.

Anyways, regarding testing evolution itself - one idea is to design an evolution simulator. It doesn't have to get every scientific detail right, but it should be a fairly accurate model. This is optimal since this IS a site about computers, so i'm assuming you know how to program.

If you're a scientist and have access to a microscope and some bacteria (and a way to look at their DNA), bacteria are a much easier way to study evolution because of how quickly they reproduce.

I wasn't saying that I have to gain something to believe something is true. I was just asking what was gained from believing in evolution, regardless of the evidence for or against it.

Thanks for the link. I read the page and I see a lot of good ideas and logic. Here is a quote from the page: "Biological evolution is genetic change in a population from one generation to another. The speed and direction of change is variable with different species lines and at different times. Continuous evolution over many generations can result in the development of new varieties and species."

I'm sorry if I ever came across as saying that genetic changes/mutations never occur and we haven't observed them in the laboratory. I know we have. I just think that we are observing adaptations within species to changing environments. The bacteria are still bacteria even after their genetics change. If evolution is just defined as above: "genetic change in a population from one generation to another," then sure, I believe in evolution. But I don't think any species has ever changed into another species. Just small adaptations.

-- Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:12 pm --

msbachman wrote:That sums it up right there. Clrkbar, you claim not to be religious then you give Pascal's wager on the Jesus lotto.

It's obvious that you have no compunctions about lying, which, were you to have read your precious Bible, you'd know to be an abomination to God, as is homosexuality, per Proverbs 6. This false flag apologetics tactic you have going where you claim to be an honest skeptic only works on people with an IQ <70, e.g. a church-goers.

You misinterpret me. I view religious people as those who are ritualistic and simply follow a bunch of rules because they are told to. When I say I am not religious, I mean I actually seek out the truth. I weigh all the options and take in all the opinions. I don't just disregard an idea because it contradicts what I have been told in church.

Pascal's wager is good logic. Why is that religious to you?

-- Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:21 pm --

Goatboy wrote:What do you gain by knowing that 2 + 2 = 4? What do you gain by knowing how gravity works, or how cells divide? I should not have even used the word "believe" when talking about science. People "believe" in God, but I "know" facts. So let's settle on this: I won't say I believe in science if you won't say you know God exists.

Some things we can know, such as 2 + 2 = 4... I don't really know what I gain from knowing that. Personally, I love math, and it's good to know that this world makes sense and has some structure to it.

Then there are things that could be true but we can't really "know" in the same way that we know 2 + 2 = 4. Like God or evolution. Both take faith to believe in. Not exactly the same as Pascal's Wager, but close. I just think of it this way: if both beliefs take faith, which belief makes more sense to have faith in?

clrkbar wrote:Pascal's wager is good logic. Why is that religious to you?

Let's call this the Plane wager:

a plane is going to crash into your house in ten minutes. Now, if you believe that is the case, and you evacuate it, and you're wrong, you lose nothing. But if you doubt it, and you're wrong, you lose everything.

So, it's better to believe that a plane is going to crash into your house, and act accordingly.

That's the same 'good logic' of Pascal applied to a different situation. But you'll laugh at this one, for the same reason why I laugh at Pascal's. You look to the truth of something before you consider the consequences in every other endeavor. Belief in god is no different.

"I'm going to get into your sister. I'm going to get my hands on your daughter." ~Gatito

clrkbar wrote:But why, Goatboy? What does your faith in that small amount of evidence have to offer you? Even if evolution and the big bang had all the evidence in the world, what would be gained by believing it?

There's some evidence. If you want more, google for it - or better yet, read a science textbook.

Anyways, regarding testing evolution itself - one idea is to design an evolution simulator. It doesn't have to get every scientific detail right, but it should be a fairly accurate model. This is optimal since this IS a site about computers, so i'm assuming you know how to program.

If you're a scientist and have access to a microscope and some bacteria (and a way to look at their DNA), bacteria are a much easier way to study evolution because of how quickly they reproduce.

I wasn't saying that I have to gain something to believe something is true. I was just asking what was gained from believing in evolution, regardless of the evidence for or against it.

Thanks for the link. I read the page and I see a lot of good ideas and logic. Here is a quote from the page: "Biological evolution is genetic change in a population from one generation to another. The speed and direction of change is variable with different species lines and at different times. Continuous evolution over many generations can result in the development of new varieties and species."

I'm sorry if I ever came across as saying that genetic changes/mutations never occur and we haven't observed them in the laboratory. I know we have. I just think that we are observing adaptations within species to changing environments. The bacteria are still bacteria even after their genetics change. If evolution is just defined as above: "genetic change in a population from one generation to another," then sure, I believe in evolution. But I don't think any species has ever changed into another species. Just small adaptations.

That's precisely it, though! Evolution is simply, as stated, genetic change from one population to another. A new species is created when enough of those tiny changes adds up to be a large enough change for a population to be considered a new species.

Take wolves, for example. Through breeding, [domesticated] wolves have evolved to be more social, less violent, etc. After many generations of changes, these domesticated wolves were so different that they became a new species - namely, dogs. Dogs have adapted to their environment (which is in this case a human household). That's basically what evolution is.

Wolves never woke up one day and found out they were dogs. Nor did they have offspring who were dogs. Over many generations, small changes added up to create many large changes.

sanddbox wrote:That's precisely it, though! Evolution is simply, as stated, genetic change from one population to another. A new species is created when enough of those tiny changes adds up to be a large enough change for a population to be considered a new species.

Take wolves, for example. Through breeding, [domesticated] wolves have evolved to be more social, less violent, etc. After many generations of changes, these domesticated wolves were so different that they became a new species - namely, dogs. Dogs have adapted to their environment (which is in this case a human household). That's basically what evolution is.

Wolves never woke up one day and found out they were dogs. Nor did they have offspring who were dogs. Over many generations, small changes added up to create many large changes.

Ok, I understand. But I have one question. Forgive my ignorance, I was never a biology person. Are wolves a different species from domestic dogs? Are they very genetically different? Wolves to me just seem like wild dogs. Are they not?

We did not invent the algorithm. The algorithm consistently finds Jesus. The algorithm killed Jeeves. The algorithm is banned in China. The algorithm is from Jersey. The algorithm constantly finds Jesus.This is not the algorithm. This is close.

clrkbar wrote:Then there are things that could be true but we can't really "know" in the same way that we know 2 + 2 = 4. Like God or evolution. Both take faith to believe in. Not exactly the same as Pascal's Wager, but close. I just think of it this way: if both beliefs take faith, which belief makes more sense to have faith in?

The one that has at least some evidence for it (evolution). Thank you for seeing it my way.

clrkbar wrote:Wolves are just domesticated dogs. They are still the same species. Small genetic mutations to changing environment, just like Darwin's finches on the Galapagos Islands. But no changing of species.

Not quite. Whether you mean it or not, you're implying that if I domesticate a wolf, I have a dog.

The typical domestic dog, Canis lupus familiaris, is considered a subspecies of the Gray Wolf, Canis lupus. There is enough genetic similarities to allow inter-breeding, but they are far enough removed from one another to warrant an official separation of the species.

clrkbar wrote:Wolves are just domesticated dogs. They are still the same species. Small genetic mutations to changing environment, just like Darwin's finches on the Galapagos Islands. But no changing of species.

You mean dogs are just domesticated wolves?

Anyways, no, they're not. They've changed enough to become their own species.