Tommy Robinson: to bar UKIP membership or not to bar . . .

If we are to have a major direct influence on the future of the UK by emulating the electoral successes of other countries’ anti-EU parties, we need to reach out in the first instance to the other 17.16 Million Leave voters and not just consider narrow aspirations of some of the 24K of us who are already UKIP members.

As these other 17.16 Million Leave voters – and even many Remainers who’ve accepted the result – have become increasingly disillusioned with the three Establishment Remoaner legacy parties for failing to get on with competently and honestly delivering a proper Brexit, they are there for the taking if we UKIPpers play our cards right. The potential realignment in UK politics – from many moderate Labour MP’s likely losing their seats (due to the reduction in Parliamentary seats and Momentum-driven deselection), and the Conservative Steve Baker MP’s predicted likely split of his Party – is a golden opportunity for us.

Whether we like it or not, Main Stream Media has a tremendous influence on huge numbers of voters. Thus to even get our message out via MSM, we have to do well in political opinion polls and actual election votes, so that MSM, in having to appeal to and thereby maintain a significant percentage of their paying customers, then feel obliged to properly feature us. MSM will always gladly cover someone saying or doing something MSM considers will likely be to our detriment.

Given that the Godders women/Michael Crick incidents overshadowed that particular UKIP National Conference MSM coverage, and that this year’s EGM comments got into the MSM, the dangers of just having a huge spoken debate, complete with gloriously quotable, intemperate, in-the-heat-of-the-moment comments are enormous, especially as Gerard has acknowledged that “the motion will elicit strong opinions on both sides of the argument” ,and emotions could run high. Even just debating the proposed single exceptional breach of Party rules – one of our key defences to accusations of racism – potentially further toxifies our brand in the minds of the thousands of moderate, common-sense people we need to win round.

There’s the same fine line between patriotism and nationalism as between UKIP’s pre-2017 General Election policy of banning all head-coverings in public places for security purposes and the shrill cries of “Ban the Burka” which sent UKIP’s 2017 GE vote share plummeting to BNP levels; thereby, together with various post-GE own goals, all but completely banishing us from MSM political discussion, and de facto the Brext playing field – proving Nigel Farage’s contention that “if UKIP becomes an anti-Islam party it will be finished”. What effectively became UKIP’s flagship policy failed because the majority of voters who, not being particularly religious or having strong views on religion, don’t see Islam as a problem and therefore not only see any solution as irrelevant to their everyday lives, but also perceive anything remotely anti-Islam as equally being anti-Muslim and therefore racist. Were history to repeat itself, and UKIP were once again to become seen as a racist anti-Muslim Party, we would undo all the progress of the last half year or so and the pro-Brexit Establishment would rub their collective hands with great glee.

Thus, right at this critical point of the Brexit process, what purpose would be served by potentially allowing recent history to repeat itself, symbolised by allowing membership of a BNP bone-head lookalike, other than to give out the unwanted message, again, that UKIP is an anti-Muslim racist party?

Furthermore, falling into this temptation could also potentially put the personal safety of UKIP leaflet delivering and door-knocking campaigners at greater risk.

Because of Gerard’s “strong opinions on both sides of the argument”, would there be mass resignations both from the NEC as well as in general, if the NEC voted by majority to accept Tommy Robinson’s membership application? Was the question even put to NEC members at their last meeting as part of a thoughtful planning process?

The video link [Ed: TR’s speech at the Oxford Union] to which Gerard pointed us is interesting but nonetheless is now history. We need to consider far more recent events and widespread potential UKIP voter reaction. Excluding the debatable issue as to whether Tommy Robinson has or has not been over-harshly treated by the UK’s law enforcement agencies, if he is as clever and articulate as his supporters like to think, then, being an adult fully responsible for his own actions he should surely have seen how his protest was going and whatever were the rights and wrongs of the situation, he should not have gone so far to have got himself arrested. His own actions – never mind anyone else’s – and his political misjudgement of this situation surely means that at the very least the answer is: not for now. We, UKIP, need to stay on the political battle field and focus on winning the Brexit war first.

Thinking post-Brexit: even if for a moment we give Tommy Robinson the benefit of the doubt in terms of raising the issue of the Islam threat, I do not consider his proposed clumsy, bull-in-a-china-shop way of dealing with it will ever find traction with the majority of voters with their easy-going ‘live-and-let-live’, fairly apathetic approach to religion.

The fact that the Tommy Robinson motion has, after publication, now been declared ultra vires shows that, sadly and indeed rather worryingly, there has been a lack of competent teamwork and careful thought being applied – not just to the Tommy Robinson aspect, but to the whole potentially explosive issue. Attempting to discredit Islam by seemingly ignoring the context of controversial Koran verses is as ineffective and unnecessarily inflammatory, to our own detriment, as someone attempting to undermine Christianity and the UK’s Judeo-Christian culture by quoting the Biblical verses, without reference to their context, saying women should be quiet and wear hats in church, and not shave their heads.

Thus, for Brexit’s sake, follow the old adage “if in doubt, leave it out”, and bar Tommy Robinson.

213 Comments

Mr Meacock, your “About the author” profile says it all really. And I gather you live in leafy Bucks too.

I do hope that we have the opportunity to chat face to face at the Conference, so much of what you say is so wide of the mark.

Did you not notice, the UKIP vote collapsed at the last two national elections. The record needs changing my friend and you need to get out more. May I suggest if you attend the Conference in Birmingham you take the opportunity to walk the streets of say Sparkhill or Small Heath, during the day and during the evening to get the full education, because what you witness will be coming to every town throughout the land very soon unless something is done about it. Or, tell me, would you be happy for your, say, 20 year old daughter to do the same journey on her own ?

I don’t have a 20 year old daughter, but I get your point, with which I have sympathy. As I’ve said many times elsewhere, where I live is nothing to do with this question and whether there’s a problem is not the issue either, but how we win power to enable the issue to be dealt with: without power we are limited in what we can do. I look forward to our no doubt interesting discussion!

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 21, 2018 at 3:29 pm

Hello David,

Without unity we have no power.

TR is to be tried by a Judge on more trumped up charges with no jury at the Old Bailey this Thursday.

The Establishment are telling you and your future generations to behave yourselves or you’ll get it next time.

If any other Englishman was threatened with imprisonment, again, for informing his viewers that the vast majority, 84%,, of paedophile rape gangs were Muslim, would you rise from your stupor?

Maybe it’s because you DON’T have a 20 year old daughter that you don’t see what Tommy sees and his beliefs are so strong that he is prepared to DIE for them. Are you prepared to die for yours? I doubt it. He knows if he does not back down there is a very good chance he will be sent again to prison, one no doubt that is heavily populated by those who want him dead.

Did you know his cousin was actually one of the victims of the Muslim rape gangs? How much do you know of the man? It seems very little on reading the above.

You mention the Bible and verses that are not PC. Well I am a Catholic who went to Roman Catholic schools (including a convent) in the 1960s/70s so I think I am more than qualified to disagree here as I was told that the Old Testament was not to be taken literally but to be seen as you would a fable which attempted to put a message across. You will not find any aggressive verses in the New Testament.

You say he shouldn’t have got himself arrested. So I ask, if you do something that you know is within the rules of the law as you have checked before hand and then the Police actually break the law, yes break the law and arrest you in an attempt to silence you. What choice would you have? Also bear in mind he was told he was ‘breaching the peace’ on arrest which was changed to ‘contempt of court’. But don’t take my word for it go watch the video, you can hear for yourself the police actually say it.

You also say, accepting him will set the party back! Well how much further back can it go? Look what you did in electing Bolton over Anne Marie Waters who may now take votes from UKIP with her For Britain Party, that was a smart move wasn’t it?

You need to understand the views of the public have changed, UKIP needs to adapt or it will die. Why do you think Farage consistently states Immigration is the No 1 issue on the doorstep, even though he too is living in the political world of yesterday.

I am a UKIP member who unfortunately could not make conference this year but if Tommy is not accepted, I for one will be ripping up my membership card.

Phil
on September 19, 2018 at 3:45 pm

Tommy Robinson’s campaign was and is wholly justified, he has alerted the general UK population to the violent and abusive methods used by Salafist Islamists to impose fear and oppression alien to our British way of life, More than this his deliberate persecution for expressing his views freely has brought the Government’s oppressive and authoritarian true nature into sharp focus.

If UKIP cannot bring a man true to his principles in defense of fellow Britons into the fold, what then? What kind of party is it.

Tommy Robinson is a natural for UKIP, he has grown since his EDL days and should be a member.

Gerrard Batten spoke at a Tommy Robinson Rally in Whitehall which I attended. He spoke of the ‘Islamic death cult’ alien to the British way of life, and I rejoined UKIP.

I rejoined UKIP as a direct result of Tommy’s wrongfull arrest, imprisonment and persecution.

It is you who are out of touch and if you and others like you can’t see that YOU should leave UKIP.

UKIP Braintree member

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 19, 2018 at 6:17 pm

I have to agree Phil.

Some Kippers want to Remain totally oblivious to the horrors reaped on working class communities across the UK.

Our strength is, as our opponents have found, that we are an Army of Cats.

It is also our weakness.

Among the useless things I keep stored in my noddle are collective nouns for cats. These include:
Nuisance
Clutter
Intrigue
Pounce
and… a Destruction of cats.

The ones I store for our opponents include
Shrewdness
Cartload
and Flange (et. Not The 9 O’Clock News)
though you are more probably familiar with ‘Troop’.

There are almost as many opinions on the TR issue as there are members, and attempts to herd our Destruction of Cats into just two corrals (admit / exclude) will produce much distracting material of goings-on to adorn the redtops.

Cats cannot be herded.

Other than imminent Conference, is there a specific reason for a rush? I think if a vote were to be held at Conference (pretty certain it won’t be), it will be for the status quo… so beware what you wish for.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 9:24 pm

The status quo is an answer in itself.

Too many pampered UKIP cats want the cream while expecting an alley cat to catch the rats.

Fred
on September 18, 2018 at 1:17 pm

I do not think that Tommy Robinson would do anything for the party. He may well inspire those that agree with a lot of his views but most of them will already be UKIP sympathisers.
The party needs to attract new members and the views of these potential members will have been heavily polluted by the media. I do admire the man tremendously and send donations to him.
Tommy is a single issue activist of a very high order but his presence may overwhelm the the real issues which should be to gain members, get parliamentarians elected and look after the broader welfare of our country. Kilroy was more moderate than Tommy and much more well known, he was a disaster. We need one very prominent personality and that should be the leader supported by capable, supportive lieutenants. Two powerful figures in any organisation causes stress and potential divisions.
I have met numerous people from the BNP and found them patriotic Englanders and certainly not bigots.
The overwhelming majority I met were very sound, worried people that were looking for any organisation that would speak for them.
They were/are people so frustrated that they were prepared to stick two fingers up to the establishment knowing that they could be endangering their future career prospects.
These are true heroes and certainly not to be denigrated. They are exactly the people that any patriotic party needs.
BUT they carry baggage, a media induced stigma that simply cannot be erased due to institutional conditioning of public opinion.
I would take most ex-BNP members over the vast majority of the Labour Party and ALL of the LibDems. But open courtship of these people would be a mistake.
My approach would be a cautious, untrumpetted acceptance of past BNP members, taking care not to put them in prominent positions where their background could be abused by the real enemy.
Therefore I think that the acceptance of Tommy would simply be a propaganda coup for the creatures that represent the real enemies of our country.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 3:25 pm

Hello Fred,
Sympathisers won’t canvass, leaflet or man street stalls.

Members might.

Fred
on September 18, 2018 at 6:42 pm

Bryan, you seem to value our members so perhaps we should not jeopardise their continued support. You are judged by the company you keep and Tommy R is unfairly viewed as extreme by a very aggressive and belligerent media and subsequently by those that actually believe the media propaganda. Many people recoil from the perceived stigma of of the extremist tag. I have seen parties destroyed from within and the destructive force is always division. Why risk all by changing policy to incorporate on divisive element.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 7:01 pm

Fred,

It is up to us Brexiters to embrace each other for unity.

If some in UKIP are too scared to take on the msm they should pipe down and let others do the job.

There are big voices on here shouting down Tommy Robinson (from a long way away obviously) but those voices turn in to a squeak when vulnerable children need protecting.

I value unity and cannot stand posers and flouncers telling us how they’ll run away if TR joins.

I have nothing but contempt for those too frit to fight for our culture and heritage.

I make no excuses for that.

Paul Metcalfe
on October 2, 2018 at 12:35 pm

well said

Mr Bav
on September 19, 2018 at 4:54 pm

….and nor will Tommy Robinson Sargon of Akkad, Count Dunkula or PJW. I’ve never seen them on this site either.

All fur coat and no knickers.

Too busy making money on You Tube and Facebook publishing clickbait to wind people up to make money to do anything else

Never mind our differing views here, the important thing is your and everyone else’s well-being if your going to deliver leaflets – not worth losing a finger for. I won’t repeat all the other benefits here which you can see on this section of my easily found website.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 20, 2018 at 7:27 pm

“As the rest of your post is as predictably stupid as I and no doubt others are coming to expect from you, I won’t dignify it with any detailed rebuttal.”

But I’m not stupid enough to buy something off you that I can purchase in any cheap store for 49p. Just use a flat wooden stirrer, no offence.

If only you’d been at the UKIP conference this weekend, you could have seen Postie Mate demonstrated and so better understood why it won Best New SME Business in Bucks last year and made the national Finals at Wembley Stadium; you’d have avoided making such a laughably ill-informed remark; and, you never know, we could have perhaps had an interesting face to face conversation about my article – which has now been somewhat superseded with the publication at Conference of the excellent Interim Manifesto, full of a wide range of Common Sense policies.

Tacitus
on September 18, 2018 at 12:40 pm

With all this going on, I was surprised to see on ukip.org an article criticising Aung Sang on the treatment of Rohingya in Burma. I wonder what Tommy Robinson would think about it. For background, the Rohingya had been living in small numbers in north-west Burma for centuries, but it was when Burma became part of the British Empiure and was incorporated into Bengal, which includes what is now Bangladesh, that the mass immigration of muslims into the area began. The indigineous Hindus became incensed as millions of these outsiders arrived and started changing the nature of their country, but there was nothing they could do whilst under the British Empire. Once freed of the British, and recovered strength, they pushed these foreigners back out again. Now, if you change these words to ‘indigineous Hindus to ‘indigineous Brits’, ‘British Empire’ to ‘EU’, then I think it becomes a situation to which UKIP should be a bit more nuanced. Surely our job is to challenge the status quo rather than parrot MSM distortions.

Euge power
on September 18, 2018 at 10:35 am

3 members of The incredibly brilliant wandsworth branch separately came up with a very sensible solution to the Tommy Robinson problem,

which we all agreed on as not only brilliant but also from Wandsworth .

UKIP should set up a supporters / associates / probationers organisation.

Obvs a cheap funder , but also to allow sinners to repent -no lifetime bans except for Liberals Like Henry Bolton.

If the Libs are forcing the electorate to change its mind , UKIP can surely allow patriots who had no political home to come on board.

Full membership allowed after a period of good behaviour .

Maybe TR as founder member ?

I will try to get the High Command to take notice.

Cheers Euge

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 12:28 pm

You’ll be doing the Establishment’s dirty work.

So a nutcase gets dropped by the Tories and can’t wait to blame floods on gays while waving a UKIP flag……..come on in, lovely Panama hat by the way.

Next, a working class lady who won’t act like a tit but joined a working class group because no one else was listening……..sorry love, you’re on the naughty step and treated like a 2nd class citizen until we decide otherwise.

The msm call it UKIP’s Nazi Waiting List and so do a few of our more deranged members.

If only she’d been a member of the SWP, Hamas or IRA she’d be straight in.

Bernard Foc
on September 17, 2018 at 11:27 pm

I am in complete agreement with the article above. UKIP need to be seen as an alternative middle ground political party not just a BNP type rabble filled mob thea Labour and some Tories have been painting UKIP as! Therefore Robinson should and must be rejected for UKIP to flourish? The oportunity is there, we just have to prove to the public we can be trusted as a main line political party!

t g spokes
on September 18, 2018 at 11:49 am

I keep being astonished by this assumption about ‘middle ground. There is no such thing. All facets of liblabconcrap are all now trying to bribe voters with ever more spending of tax reciepts and larger state And the fools buying it, are paying for it. Thus producing a race to the botton.

It is my belief that that the vast mass of people working, and I mean working for a living and not just hangers on loafing around in one of the thousands of state funded ( Or leveraged ) politically invented jobs like :– Compliance , Yuman Rites, Risk assessment, ‘on benefits’ ,Project management, Elf and safety, Energy companies, Failed programs, dqy and onanonanon. We know that if we agitate for more police, they’ll just be used to increase our (sic) intelligence services closer to 1984 ( It should have been 2024 ) and then more immigrants to keep them in business.

Our Governments of whatever nasty universe they belong, are not changing. NEVER, Extreme naivety to even hope. 2 years and 3 months. Has anything changed? Anything at all ?…No, . Look for action not drivel. Sly Soothing duplicitous words.

This is going to go on and on now. A distant long gone dream. For ever . Remoaners are going to remember the glory days when they needn’t worry or work, The Unions would ensure that nothing ever got sold or made. And Mrs May could even get a statue somewhere.

But where to go? We the right wing, are the new Jews. And all because of two mentally challenged people May and Corbyn.

Paul Metcalfe
on October 2, 2018 at 12:51 pm

Flourish? Like the last election you mean? This man is followed by millions something even our leader can only dream of and would bring a younger demographic to the party something that will help sustain it. Just be grateful he decided on ‘UKIP’ and not ‘For Britain’. Oh and remember how the media used to treat Farage before he was accepted into the fold.
If you think his followers are all working class I can tell you they’re not, I’m not, they are the silent majority, not everyone who follows him attends his rallies so don’t be fooled, but they do vote, myself included.

The main thing TR is guilty of is naivete about the deceitful and implacable nature of the establishment.

But I also know from those close to him he’s done a lot of growing up in the past few months.

—

There’s often more to goings-on within UKIP (I’m sure the same applies to LibLabConGroan) than meets the eye.

My discreet polling of activists from all around the country (the people more likely to attend Conference, and who comprise the overwhelming majority of attendees) suggests that were a vote now on whether TR should or should not be admitted to membership be held, THIS VOTE WOULD BE AGAINST. This, notwithstanding the general acceptance that TR is courageous and genuine.

London Region would, I believe, be the exception and would vote for admission. I leave it for the reader to figure out why that might be.

I further suggest that some of those pushing for a vote have also figured out that right now, the vote would be unfavourable to TR.

I question the motives of a few incorrigible plotters. It is without question that were a vote to be held, and the result was *Against* admitting TR, it would rule out *subsequent* voting on this matter as and when the Overton Window shifts.

That is, unless one wants it plastered all over the MSM that UK opts for second Referendums when it suits them.

I wish the world was as simple as so many think it is. It isn’t. Wheels within wheels…

Patience may, therefore, be wise.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 10:15 pm

Who knows, Freddy.

Gerard may find he’s leading an out of touch, class-ridden group of ‘I’m alright Jacks’ happy to swan around dressed for the country fair, while turning their nose up at the less fortunate in our country.

For the Nation or for the shires?

Why not name the plotters, Freddy ? UKIP isn’t a secret cult where members are treated like mushrooms.

If Tommy is not allowed to join may I suggest joining the UKIP Patrons Club. Crowdfund 5 grand and Tommy can help write our next manifesto.

Others can name them. By their works ye shall know them, and their objective is to destabilise the leader and replace him. Then castrate the party, or deliver it in a pine box (no door handle on the inside) to the Tories in return for public recognition.

Bryan, a large part of the reason I put these things out here is so that they know I know they know I know.

I wonder when the discredited bunch of has-beens (they already had their chance to ruin UKIP, but didn’t fully succeed) will dare to bring their roadshow to Eastern, South-Eastern or London Regions, when I shall turn up to their meetings with a video-camera team (overt and covert) in tow.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 11:30 am

Hello Freddy,
You put too much emphasis on you knowing and zero emphasis on the rest of us knowing. It’s a silly game Freddy. Either it’s worth repeating or you’re puffing yourself up to impress us.

The plotters will invariably ask me to put my hand in my pocket at some stage.

How can I make an informed decision on funding UKIP projects if myself and other members are kept out of the loop.

You could expose the plotters in a variety of ways including by telling someone on your UKIP contacts list and them quoting “sources”.

Please forgive me for not replying to all of your over 120 individual contributions – purely on the basis of time.

Apologies for my typo at the end of para. 5, which should read ‘anti-Brexit’ (not ‘pro’), and so I hope can be corrected.

It appears we all agree that there are elements of Islam, and so of Muslims’ lifestyle, such as Halal meat, which are incompatible with UK culture.

Where we differ, and so some appear to have missed the main thrust of this and my related articles, is not ‘whether’ we need to counter these elements, but rather, HOW we successfully do so, within the context of a democracy and so needing to gain ‘the people’s support’, as successfully happened to win the Brexit vote. The first part of the HOW is to actually convince the majority to share our view of there being problems in the first place and then solutions might hold sway.

Humbling as being selfless may be, if we’re being politically astute, the view of each of UKIP’s 24K members, a mere 0.001% of the Leave vote, as to whether TR would toxify the UKIP brand for them personally is irrelevant in comparison with whether TR would likely toxify the UKIP brand as far as the majority of the other 17.16 Million voters are concerned – whom we need if we are to emulate the electoral success of the anti-EU parties in other countries – as I believe he currently would.

Nigel Farage said, and proved with the Brexit vote, you don’t necessarily need a green seat to cause change. But the fact he and UKIP stand in elections acknowledges that occupying a seat of power would enable far more rapid change to be made if only from initially being an effective lone fox in the henhouse. So, again, hand on heart, not looking through your eyes, but through the eyes of the majority of the other 17.16 Leave voters, would TR joining UKIP encourage or discourage the majority of them to vote UKIP?

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 10:01 am

Hello David,

It pains me to say this but in the previous by-election held in Lewisham, UKIP was toxic to 98.5% of the voters.

As the turnout was below 50%, 99.25% of that electorate believe UKIP to be toxic.

David, If Tommy Robinson joins UKIP how many of the 0.75% of UKIP support will we lose ?

First that Bye-election isn’t as bad as the numbers would appear to show: we know that it’s less likely UKIP will get many the 48% who voted remain. So of the available market – the 30% who voted Leave on Lewisham figures we got near enough 5% (using your figures, 1.5 of 100% near enough equates to 5% of the 30% we could realistically expect). Agreed, not great, but equally not as bad as you say either.

Second, there would have been many other factors, such as the hang=over from the last leadership shambles with GB having not by then had enough time to make a huge public impact with sorting out UKIP itself.

I’m focusing on what we have to gain – not least to get back what we’ve lost from the 2014 peak of winning the Euro elections.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 3:20 pm

You live in a nice part of Bucks and your views reflect this.

More people live in urban areas and are affected by LibLabCon race and worker replacement policies.

You and Tommy speak the same language as you wrote a hard hitting piece against Sharia Law on this site.

The presumptions behind your last question are extraordinary: there may be elements of overlap but TR’s and my approaches are fundamentally different. As things currently stand, it would appear he’s put himself on the wrong side of the law, whereas I have never yet been arrested at all; never mind for pursuing political views. I’m sure even TR would say that my approach is more finessed than his. I note you’ve still failed to address the fundamental issue here which I’ve repeated in the global answer I gave the 130 or so posts following my article; and where I live is totally irrelevant to that: let’s see some political acumen from you.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 10:28 pm

@David,

How you see yourself is different to how others see you.

You wrote a great piece criticising Sharia Law as has Tommy Robinson. I suggest you read Enemy of the State. It’s a proper book.

You both have similar and persuasive views on Sharia Law.

Finesse is a nice way for you to pretend you’re more Douglas Murray than TR. People have different upbringings. While you were locked in learning Chopsticks, Tommy was probably hitting someone in the chops with a stick. Doesn’t mean you are better than him.

With regards to your 147 comments. I don’t wish to burst your bubble but it’s Tommy Time and just his name and the word Oi ! underneath would have got 140.

When someone in football parlance has to repeatedly play the man (you’ve done the same to other contributors too; e.g. Freddy above) and yet again shown no political acumen by completely failing to address the key point re what would be the likely reaction of UKIP’s prime target market – the other 17.16M leave voters – even after being prompted to do so, it’s pretty obvious by now you have little if anything worthwhile to contribute to this discussion.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 1:09 pm

Guessing the future voting intentions of people you’ve never met and dependent on something that may or may not happrn is a stupid question unworthy of an answer.

Then again we could use your magic calculater that turns a 1.5% actual vote in to 5% support.

We’ve found UKIP’s Dianne Abbott. If UKIP receive 40% of the vote you can round it up to twelfthty nine.

Can we confirm that the reason you wish to exclude Tommy Robinson is his portrayal in the media ?

“Guessing the future voting intentions of people you’ve never met” is exactly what decent politicians of all parties do all the time; with varying degrees of insight/intellect. Indeed in order to satisfy current and potential clients that’s exactly what any business has to do too.

Good leadership is as much about being a good listener, as driving things forward.

As the rest of your post is as predictably stupid as I and no doubt others are coming to expect from you, I won’t dignify it with any detailed rebuttal.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 7:15 pm

I found this on your website;

“I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

“by-election held in Lewisham [East], UKIP was toxic to 98.5% of the voters. As the turnout was below 50%, 99.25% of that electorate believe UKIP to be toxic.”

UKIP got 1.72% in the 2018 Lewisham East by-election, which I deduce you’ve not unreasonably rounded against us to 1.5% and 100-1.5% = 98.5%, the first of your numbers.

Turnout was 22,056, the electorate 66,140 so 33.3%. 33.3% x 1.72% = 0.57%, which I deduce you’ve not unreasonably rounded in our favour to 0.75% and 100-0.75% = 99.25%, the second of your numbers.

Suggesting that 99+% of voters in Lewisham East consider us toxic is ridiculous. The true % is much lower. Many of the most strident protests against more immigrants are from recent immigrants (but excluding incoming members of their own families, usually, as they are special cases).

The fair statements to make are that there are at least 380 sane voters in Lewisham East; and I suspect the true number is much higher.

“Attempting to discredit Islam by seemingly ignoring the context of controversial Koran verses”.

Here’s a controversial Koranic verse, David: 5:38. “[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.”

Could you please lead us through in detail how this instruction to chop thieves’ hands off is actually all right if you consider the context? Here is the whole sura so you have the context to hand:https://quran.com/5/

Please don’t say, “It was suitable for 7th century desert nomads but clearly isn’t suitable for 21st century Britain”. As I’m sure you know, Muslims consider the Koran to be the Word of Allah, valid for all men for all time.

Another atheist with whom I share both a birthday and a sense of humour is often claimed to have said “The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible.” [1]

And another scientist definitely wrote “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” [2]

To these may I add my penn’orth “If you want to know why you should hate ‘God’, read the noble Qur’an.” ?

I have done so, in its English translation, both in the sequence presented and put chronologically (where it is less incoherent and even scarier, as one can observe the transitioning).

The gentle Ba’hais intended, in effect, to add a “New Testament” to the Qur’an, abrogating (i.e. carrying out naskh aka tafsir) the numerous “worst bits” of the original. This earned them treatment as heretics and apostates, with a death sentence against them in many Islamic countries (which list probably will include the UK sooner or later)

[1] Samuel Langhorne Clemens aka Mark Twain
[2] Dr Isaac Asimov

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 2:30 pm

Another Tommy Robinson piece outperforms allcomers in the popularity stakes.

Like him or loathe him, the bloke is showbiz.

He also has the knack of shaking trees and watching idiots fall out.

Piers Morgan, Sily Allen, the Daily Mail and Judge Marson to name a couple of biggies.

“Tree-shaking” of a vaguely related sort is something with which I’m familiar, because it’s one of many ways the larger players in financial markets (esp. stockmarkets) feed off the minnows, who are encouraged to use mitigation and insurance tools.

Mr Mugg, or is it Miss Muppet, off to the grind for the day, feels safe with their little holding in XYZ @£10 a share, because they have a stop-loss placed at £9. “Better safe than sorry”, they think. Poor strategy, I think. Always risk:reward at an individual level.

Overjoyed to learn, when they get back, that the SP is now £11, it comes as a rude awakening when they check their account to learn that a tree shake (maybe the result of co-ordinated short-selling by the whales) had taken the SP below £9 before the great leap forward. As multiple stop-losses were triggered, the collapse accelerated; due to all the others with similar mitigation, in the seconds the automatic sells were executed, the SP had fallen further.

They have £8.80 cash, less charges, they managed to get for their shares, instead of the £11 shares they would have otherwise had if they had been braver. Also, they have the humiliation of perhaps having to buy back in, which including charges, commission, SD and trading spread, could mean an outlay of £11.50.

I always play it like a whale, spreading risk but absolutely not avoiding it, which is scarier. But courage is rewarded.

There may be an analogy.

Political palm-tree-shakes are liable to free not just fronds with clingers-on, but also large fruit and nut.

… which might split open the heads of the shakers. I was tempted to name a particularly heavy nut, but am aware it is now deemed to be a racially-charged term. Like “whiter than white”, which is enough to get a Chief Super suspended.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 7:19 pm

I wish you’d stop fannying around and spit out what you want to say.

Plotters ?
Heavy nut ?

Either name them or stop bitching about them.

Tacitus
on September 16, 2018 at 9:36 am

I think this whole affair has been a terrible mis-step by Gerard. At the moment, coming into the final furlong, UKIP should be fully united to achieve Brexit. Now, the reality is that UKIP fell apart two years ago after the referendum and then totally failed to turn itself into the ‘guardog of Brexit’ or whatever the expression was, and failed to turn itself into a broader movement to unite the 17million leavers, but back in January we still had one last chance to recover some credibility. I was really hoping that Gerard, as a UKIP founder member and a person of integrity (by that, I mean consistency of his views) would reach out to those many ex-UKIP people like Steven Woolfe, Janice Atkinson, Diane James, Farage, Bloom, Banks, etc etc and their supporters to try to get as big a coalition together as possible to keep Brexit onside. However, it seems he has decided to go the other direction and drive as big a wedge as possible through the middle of UKIP by pushing this TR issue. The result is that, once again, UKIP is nowhere, rats squabbling in a sack, not providing any challenge to our enemies. If he was going to take such a divisive step then he should have made sure it was watertight and could be driven through to completion, but to go off half-cocked gets us the worst of all worlds. Why could this not have been left for 6 months? You have to say there are many similarities between Gerard and Jeremy Corbyn, in that they are both extraordinarily stubborn minded people, happy to be on their backbenches for decades, but when they got propelled into leadership both still stubbornly hanging on to the same views that had kept them on the backbenches for so long, and not forgiving any of their grudges, in fact bringing their grudges with them and rubbing salt in (see GB’s tweet re Woolfe this week as an example). Guys face it, Gerard has not changed his perspective one little bit, and it makes absolutely no logical sense to have someone with the same set of views that the party leader holds being excluded from the party. Saying you don’t want TR in the party amounts to saying you don’t want GB in the party, either. Therefore I put it to you that the problem is not TR, it is GB. However, there is nobody who could replace GB, so now we are basically stuck with a wounded leader and a disunited party that is making no impacy on the national scene. No wonder Farage kept his distance, he could see this coming as he knows GB well!

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 10:07 am

You mention Woolfey.

I liked him and was especially impressed when we had a monocultural meeting of multi-ethnic members in Westminster.

Woolfey spoke emotionally that Brtons should stick together while the Establishment’s mollycoddled middle class muppets shouted “Racist scum” at the black, brown and white audience.

From leadership material all the way down to being banned from joining the Tories.

That is a bigger error of judgement than any GB has made.

That means that the Conservative Government has a proscribed list.

UKIP are the only ones on the list.

We’re still cranks, loonies etc to the Tories.

Tacitus
on September 16, 2018 at 11:18 am

As you say, we were making progress by patient, reasoned argument by people like Woolfe and even Suzanne Evans who is very vocal on the burka, but rather than do it as a street warrior she could do it through the media. I don’t understand why the right can’t follow a Sinn Fein – IRA strategy, people like Tommy can play the IRA role, but leave UKIP clean to fight at the ballot box. This way the issue still gets the prominence it deserves, but we don’t frighten off the voters.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 2:08 pm

Suzanne Evans has the strange ability of speaking for UKIP when she has never been elected in any position including NEC. (I believe)

With regards to the IRA. They have ex-fighters, even possibly commanders of killers, walking the corridors of Westminster and some Kippers want to ban a street protestor from Luton.

Yes, we do; but corruption in the process was not exercised in her favour.

UKIP is a Broad Mosque, as they say nowadays.

Tacitus
on September 18, 2018 at 8:08 pm

Why do you need to be elected into any position to be a Spokesman or woman? Answer – you don’t. I know she was annoying, but at least she would get on programs like have i got news for you and present the cause, or at least a version of it. Who can do that now?

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 9:32 pm

@Tacitus,

Going on HIGNFY is the modern day version of the stocks.

“I watched Suzanne Evans on HIGNFY last night and now I’m voting UKIP”, said no one.

t g spokes
on September 18, 2018 at 12:15 pm

One thing i learnt in business is whether you like ’em or not. you use what you got, ( If they can do it ) and support ’em. ( If you can’t . Get Rid. ! )

David Ramsbotham
on September 16, 2018 at 10:52 am

I agree – we are in a self-imposed mess once again just as we had started to make progress.

There is a possible solution. As suggested, the TR issue should be put on the back boiler until after the Leadership election next April when prospective candidates can put forward their views on this topic and members can vote accordingly.

In the meantime GB [who has done a fantastic job in saving UKIP] should take further drastic action to get things back on track. The day has come to put personal pride and all our past differences behind us and to unite once more to save our great country. My suggestion therefore is to immediately appoint Nigel [if he agrees] as our spokesman for Brexit and perhaps joint Deputy Leader. This would get the general public behind us, create a great boost for the Party and hopefully guarantee our escape from the shackles of the EU for ever.

Tacitus
on September 16, 2018 at 11:35 am

Let’s see how GB reacts then, is he suddenly going to become the great uniter, or remain consistent to his views? I know which I think is more likely….. tweeting support for AMW but attacking Woolfe last week gives you some insight into where he is at…

> You have to say there are many similarities between Gerard and Jeremy Corbyn, in that they are both extraordinarily stubborn minded people, happy to be on their backbenches for decades, but when they got propelled into leadership both still stubbornly hanging on to the same views

I don’t agree, Tacitus.

1. What’s the difference between being stubborn and being principled? Is it “principled” when you agree with what drives/motivates/inspires them, and “stubborn” when you don’t?

2. Jeremy Corbyn is a hypocrite. He was renowned for his anti-EU stand. Now, the Labour Party he leads is the greatest force in the UK against a Brexit or a meaningful Brexit.
Gerard Batten may be many things, but he is not a hypocrite.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 18, 2018 at 1:50 pm

I agree that Corbyn is a hypocrite.

He hates Jewish people and wishes to boycott goods made by Jewish workers.

Then like a total buffoon he calls everyone else nasty names to deflect his own racism.

t g spokes
on September 18, 2018 at 12:03 pm

I agree with your analysis. We are reaching similar conclusions. However he still has a little time , And he has made considerable progress. More than I had ever even hoped for.

Hugo Jenks
on September 16, 2018 at 7:39 am

In the possible scenario that Boris Johnson is the leader of the Conservatives, and Nigel Farage is the leader of UKIP, why would anybody bother to vote for UKIP rather than for the Conservatives?

Both sound similar on Brexit. Both also ignore the harsh reality of Islam and prefer us to believe comfortable deceit.

If Jacob Rees-Mogg was to be the leader of the Conservatives instead of Boris Johnson, that would not help either. He is just as deluded regarding Islam as Johnson and Farage. See:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOH1Ln3-qS8

Rees-Mogg believes that “the vast bulk of Muslims” are peaceful. However:
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified
25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
etc

David Ramsbotham
on September 16, 2018 at 5:28 am

In our latest newsletter GB states that UKIP support is running at 7–8%. Unfortunately the two latest polls, which have been carried out since the news of the divisive issue of TR’s membership broke, suggest that this has reduced to 4%. Hopefully this is a temporary setback but it could be an indication of things to come.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 10:57 am

@DR,
That’s a bit naughty David,.

Using emotional language to talk down UKIP.

The latest polling figures are copied below.

UKIP at 7% (+2, 5% (nc) and 4%(+3). If we’re using dodgy polling to support our argument I’d say that the last one from the Daily Mail has UKIP at +3 since the TR debate started.

No mention of TR anywhere, as those polls are designed to keep Establishment Blue & Red neck and neck with a small gain for Remain Yellow.

………..

Survation for the Daily Mail have topline figures of CON 38%(+1), LAB 37%(-4), LDEM 10%(+4), UKIP 4%(+3). Fieldwork was done wholly on Friday, after the news of Boris Johnson’s seperation from his wife had broken. The changes are from their poll at the start of the week that showed a four point Labour lead – obviously given the closeness of fieldwork those changes are more likely to be noise than a sudden surge in Lib Dem support within a matter of days!

BMG for the Independent have topline figures of CON 37%(nc), LAB 38%(-1), LDEM 11%(+1), UKIP 7%(+2). Fieldwork was Tuesday to Friday and the (insignificant) changes are from last month.

Finally YouGov‘s weekly poll for the Times had headline figures of CON 39%(nc), LAB 35%(-2), LDDEM 11%(+1), UKIP 5%(nc). Fieldwork was on Monday and Tuesday, and changes are from last week.

All three polls obviously show Labour and Conservative relatively close. Worth noting is that all three have the Liberal Democrats sneaking up into double figures, something that does seem to be part of a wider trend of the Liberal Democrats very gradually starting to recover support.

David Ramsbotham
on September 16, 2018 at 12:02 pm

It appears that the polls which you have quote are not the latest – see below

I don’t think our opponents would be too worried about my postings. They must, however, be rubbing their hands with glee that UKIP has shot itself in the foot yet again at this critical time in the Brexit negotiations.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 3:07 pm

@David,

If you are looking for a recent UKIP % loss you could say that any decrease has been since some UKIP sympathisers have been upset by anti-Tommy responses on forums such as this.

Come on David, be fair man.

Polls are like ‘experts’. Pay for the one that will agree with you. Don’t worry there’s another one on it’s way.

They’re playing games.

David Ramsbotham
on September 16, 2018 at 4:05 pm

OK – don’t believe anything – just make excuses and bury your head in the sand.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 6:41 pm

It is physically impossible to post as often.as I do if my head was in the sand.

All I’m asking is for your decent reasons for denying TR UKIP membership, not jumping on the back of polls produced by our enemies.

The main reason is not his views, it’s his criminal record.

Does a drink-driving conviction bar new members ?

If we are to be judged by other party members using their new scale of criminality, what is their threshold for membership ?

DD ? ABH ? Fraud ? Not paying the TV Tax ?

It would be nice to know.

David Ramsbotham
on September 17, 2018 at 5:50 am

This matter revolves around the Rules and I do not think there is any point in making an exception in TR’s case. If it is considered that the Rules are wrong this should be discussed in an orderly and timely manner and not rushed through on a show of hands of those who can afford to attend conference. I have already suggested that the whole membership issue should be considered alongside the Leadership election next April.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 8:17 am

@DR,

The rules are that GB can invite TR to join and only needs NEC approval.

If TR joins after GB and the NEC obey the rules, you’ll agree that the rules were complied with and TR can join ?

Do you accept the rules or flounce off because the rules didn’t work in your favour ?

David Ramsbotham
on September 17, 2018 at 8:52 am

To make a special case just for TR could be political suicide for UKIP and possibly GB.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 10:53 am

@DR

So you only support rules you agree with. That’s exactly the same as people that commit crime.

When that is proven wrong you then resort to Project.

What’s next David ?

House prices could drop 33% if TR joins UKIP.

Cliff edge ?

WW3 ?

David Ramsbotham
on September 17, 2018 at 11:57 am

It’s not about me it’s about the future of UKIP.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 1:35 pm

@DR,

If I had a rubbish argument full of contradictions, blinded by prejudice and reliant on guesswork and fear, I’d do the same as you.

– alleged words of Harry Day, WW1 RFC (RAF’s predecessor) fighting ace. This is according to Paul Brickhill’s 1954 work, ‘Reach for the Sky: The Story of Douglas Bader DSO, DFC’.
Brickhill is better known for ‘The Great Escape’ (1950) and ‘The Dam Busters’ (1951), which I read first.
The Great Escape movie, while one of my favourites, is mainly Hollywood.

I have not paid the TV Tax for decades and have no intention whatsoever in paying it. Why should I? I am no more obliged to pay it than I am to buy a lottery ticket (a tax on the stupid) or a copy of ‘Socialist Worker’.

In fact, less so. At least with them I’m not compelled by law to pay for ‘Socialist Worker’ if all I want to read are the stockmarket pages of the FT.

I place the begging letters from “TV Licensing” (an unacknowledged trading name of the BBC) in a file.

One day, I may take legal action against them for harassment about their threatening junkmail, and/or report them for a breach of company law (sending out official correspondence while concealing they are a limited company, and without disclosing the company’s number and state of registration).

Farranger
on September 16, 2018 at 1:46 am

It’s a difficult time for Ukip members. Should we resign if Tommy Robinson becomes a member or should we resign if he is barred. Decisions, decisions! We are a party of resigners after all. I was going to write a ‘great’ party of resigners but the truth is Ukip will never become great until it has a sufficient number of people who are mature enough to not to resign when things don’t go their way.
Now I’m not exactly a neutral here. I think Tommy should be allowed to join. But there are good arguments against it. Unfortunately David Meacock’s article is not one of them. He lost my sympathy with his rude ‘bonehead’ comment.
But to sum up the best argument against him joining is that the MSM will paint ukip as a far-right party and treat us as such.
This has to be considered seriously.
And what if Tommy is barred by Ukip? Let’s consider that seriously. The MSM will commend Ukip and say it is not a far-right party and they were wrong after all and that it is a decent party and in future they will cease to denigrate us as racists and say nice things about us occasionally? Yeah, pull the other one.
Tommy Robinson is very impressed with Gerard Batten. So am I and so are a lot of people. He wants to join. Hardly a far right takeover. I’m not given to conspiracy theories but I do think there is a common agenda, among our Tory sympathisers, to keep Ukip from straying outside the Brexit issue. Even the suggestion that we promote proportional representation is regarded with horror. I feel that until we break free of this leash Ukip will not develop as a political force.

Jake Bennett
on September 16, 2018 at 8:39 am

Farranger The issue is not really about ‘barring’ TR from joining the party. This is not personal – it is about making an exception to the proscribed list for an individual which is wrong. There are many decent lapsed members of the BNP for example – why should TR be an exception to the rule? I respect TR for both his bravery and his resilience and I also think that we can eventually work towards reviewing the proscribe list criteria for long lapsed members of proscribed groups. But at this most critical time when the Party has just got its house together with membership rising and a renewed vigour in our Branch network to fight for a clean Brexit we cannot afford to split the Party over this issue. As you rightly point out the party is immature in that it is made up of far to many ‘resigners’.

All members of the public know full well that UKIP are foursquare behind halting mass immigration and we are the only Party fighting for free speech, fighting cultural marxism and creeping Islam. It is not as though the public do not already have the opportunity to express their displeasure about these issues – they can vote UKIP.
After Brexit I will fully support a review of the proscribed list but first please let us get Brexit in the bag and not at this critical time hand a hatchet to the media to destroy us.

Martin
on September 16, 2018 at 1:14 am

“Attempting to discredit Islam by seemingly ignoring the context of controversial Koran verses…..”

Oh dear. I’ll have difficulty in ridding my brain of such picturesque terminology.

COLIN HUSSEY
on September 15, 2018 at 8:31 pm

Bryan, Thank you for replying to my comment, but as per usual it isn’t printed here. Probably just as well, because I can’t understand that either. Are your comments encoded, because if they are I need a guidebook to decipher them. You have mentioned Station X (Bletchley Park) in a previous comment, so one must be able to decode your messages to understand them. Were you at Bletchley Park in WW2 or the SOE. Answers please on the back of a matchbox.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 10:10 pm

I honestly had never heard of Station X. Sounds like a funky garage radio station. It must have been someone else. What’s SOE ?

You remember it so please copy the whole comment and I’ll agree with you.

Going back to the issue of TR joining UKIP, it could mean your members having a secret vote via HQ or the Electoral Commission.

I concur absolutely with the writer’s conclusion; for right or wrong, having UKIP in any way associated with Tommy Robinson would be an open goal for the MSM & believe me, they would make use of it.
One thing we don’t need is one more distraction taking attention away from rebuilding UKIP as a viable & electable political entity post Brexit – something it clearly failed to demonstrate at the last GE & council elections.
Heck, there isn’t even a UKIP branch in West Cumbria any more.

Many people have stopped believing the MSM nowadays, this is why we won the referendum.

All the MSM can do now is to suppress information by ignoring it. If they try to smear UKIP as “racist” for letting in Tommy Robinson they will have to INFORM their readers/listeners that he has joined, Then people will be able to check what he really stands for by themselves, on the internet.

Kowtowing to the MSM as you are in effect suggesting has never won us any battles.

One reason why UKIP’s ratings dropped after the referendum was because we were seen as a one-trick pony – “Job done”.

To be a viable electable party we need a broad range of policies, and why do you want to leave out the mass child rape issue? For years the authorities looked the other way, for fear of being stigmatised as “racist”.

It would be despicable for UKIP to behave in the same way, and for the same reason.

We must fight back, and say boldly and clearly that there is nothing “racist” about criticising an ideology that classes women in general as inferior beings, and non-Muslim women in particular as “easy meat”.

StuartJ
on September 15, 2018 at 8:23 pm

Another way of looking at this, if Tommy Robinson is not allowed to join UKIP, will he then turn his attentions to For Britain instead?

It would be a great publicity coup for Anne-Marie Waters’ party, if they can claim some kind of moral high ground: “UKIP wouldn’t let him in, we’ll welcome him with open arms” etc etc.

For Britain is probably at this stage less of a threat (to the Establishment) than UKIP potentially is. The Establishment plays the ‘divide and rule’ game. There could well be a ruse being played here in order to divide the ‘populist’ vote between UKIP and For Britain, and as we know for ourselves, if this side of the vote becomes spilntered or ‘diluted’, all it does is maintain the legacy parties’ (Establishment) grip on power.

Nigel Farage is a member of UKIP, yet seemingly does little to get his followers to back UKIP. Tommy Robinson does not need to be a UKIP member to rally his followers to back UKIP.

I wait to see how this all pans out…

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 9:37 pm

Hello Stuart,

I reckon that TR is evolving in to a politician. I’m happy with that as it would be nice to trust one for once. Eighty or so Brexiter MPs excepted.

Hanging around outside mosques and courts has run it’s course and he needs to be pushed on to larger tv and social media audiences.

He keeps to the script, has smartened up and is quick witted given half the chance.

As an independent, his views, which are often our views, are being shut down. TR needs the political legitimacy of UKIP.

He’s a Brexiter and speaks UKIP’s language on most issues.

Excluding TR gives the signal that UKIP are happy to be safely going nowhere. Glorious underdogs fighting for truth and honour at 3% in the polls and the electorate laughing and going elsewhere.

I honestly think that some only join UKIP so they can dress like Nigel but are all ego and no action.

In case anyone hasn’t noticed, we cannot even have a hustings without the Establishment’s rentamob, including those in blue, shutting it down.

We need unity and we need numbers.

UKIP saying no to unity worries me as making the wrong decision now will make our problems even harder to overcome in the future.

The last UKIP leadership was won by an ex-LibDem with an ex-Labour candidate coming second.

TR should be applauded for never being a member of either.

ogga1
on September 15, 2018 at 10:45 pm

BT,
Couldn’t agree more,personally I back Gerard Battens take on the issue 100 % for Tommy Robinsons rhetoric and actions certainly should give him a right to be heard and judged by the membership.
My take on it is we have much more to gain all round as a party than we have to lose,whatever the outcome and regarding the MSM UKIP are going to be damned if they grant Tommy membership and damned if they don’t.
As in a prior post, I see Tommys membership as a one off and not as a latch lifter to a great many previously ruled out.

Farranger
on September 16, 2018 at 3:08 am

Very well put Bryan. Keep at it mate.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 6:33 pm

No offence to Christopher Gill. He has written a fine piece.

As a snapshot to current hot topics I see that 200 days to Brexit has 2 comments while an anti-Tommy whine has attracted 50 odd. (Some very odd).

The trick is for us in UKIP to harvest that energy into votes.

The haters will never be happy. They criticise the status quo of the EU while protecting their status quo of affluence, Toryism and living nicely away from those yucky areas near the city.

I’ve never met the bloke but he’s risen from the streets of Luton to a worldwide audience on Rebel TV and You Tube.

He’s a leader for some of us and you have to accept our’s just the same as we accept your’s.

Stronger Together !! Etc.

Peter Ashcroft
on September 15, 2018 at 6:21 pm

Tommy Robinson and the Salafi Muslim extremists in Luton are a political distraction.
Just as the majority of Jews and Christians are smoothly law abiding, the same can be said about the majority of Muslims.
Only the extremists of any religion or non hit the headlines, and criticism should only be directed against them.

Martin
on September 16, 2018 at 1:25 am

Shame that you seem to have your head buried in the sand.

Keith
on September 16, 2018 at 3:29 pm

The majority of Germans in 1939 were smoothly law abiding too. Only 7% of them were Nazi Party members. Didn’t stop them doing their law-abiding best to kill us all when WW2 started. History is made by the minority who get up off their sofas and do something.

Martin Macrae
on September 15, 2018 at 5:21 pm

I do not think we should accept this person as a UKIP member in any way.

I have sympathy for the disgraceful way the authorities have hounded this man, he is part of a radical group that UKIP has specifically barred because of the kind of people he attracts. Radical left and radical right people have a perfect right to be heard, create and or join any organisation they are welcomed into. UKIP should not wish to be associated with the parties this man has previously been part of. This would put many, many people off voting UKIP.
Tommy Robinson made a legal mistake in attempting to publicise an on-going trial. In any right-wing party, and that shows a lack of judgement. Unlike the liberal elite parties, the press waits eagerly for the slightest error to pounce upon right wing parties. UKIP could not afford another mistake like that from a member.
UKIP would appear to be approving such radicalism by allowing this exception, and that would massively outweigh any benefit that is assumed ( I can see none).

I hope Tommy Robinson is able to continue exposing the acts of evil child-rape gangs that do not seem to get coverage in the press. UKIP should, I think join in this when prosecutions do not seem to be forthcoming.

“But the BBC reported on the same trial that Tommy did, and they’re not in prison. Why not?

Because any BBC reports, which as far as I have seen relate entirely to the outset of proceedings before the judge made the reporting restriction, were not in contempt of court. They were fair and accurate, rather than propagandist rants seeking to disseminate information that a judge had specifically ordered should not be in the public domain (such as details of charges against the defendants that had been dropped), and were not in breach of reporting restrictions.”

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 9:14 am

Dear Spon,

You’ve just ruined any credibility you had by using our enemy against us.

Bent judiciary and fascist secret barrister had their say and you agree with them. Shame on you.

Firstly, the Canterbury conviction, which had also been appealed against, was upheld.

Secondly, the Leeds conviction was quashed because of procedural errors, and a retrial ordered.

It is by no means certain that he will not end up in gaol again.

Best wishes, Spon.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 3:25 pm

@Spon,

I was a bit harsh with that last one.

Is Tommy correct in his criticism of the Establishment’s appeasement of Sharia Law ?

Is Tommy correct in his hatred for the LibLabCon’s decades of inertia as grooming gangs roamed the UK ?

There’s right and wrong here. Having minor criminal convictions is an irrelevant sideshow.

Rob McWhirter
on September 16, 2018 at 5:09 pm

Doing stuff that could derail a long and expensive trial, after having been told by a judge a year earlier that he escaped jail by the skin of his teeth, and anything similar in future would automatically result in bird is hardly minor. Or sensible.

To paraphrase Wilde: “Misunderstanding contempt of court law once may be regarded as misfortune. Twice smacks of carelessness”.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 8:37 pm

Wrongly imprisoned for “carelessness” by a vindictive judge with no trial, no jury or proper brief present, seems a bit over the top to me.

The Judge that quashed the wrongful conviction agreed.

You shouldn’t be gloating because one day it could be you.

First they came for Tommy and I said nothing etc etc etc.

Rob McWhirter
on September 17, 2018 at 7:03 am

The quashing judge showed some sympathy for the other judge:

“We recognise that the judge was placed in an invidious position because he was concerned about the integrity of the trial which was almost at its end. The three trials, of which this was the second, were exceptionally difficult and sensitive. Having decided to suspend the deliberations of the jury, it is understandable that he may have felt under some pressure to resolve the issue of the appellant’s contempt expeditiously”.

Contempt of court doesn’t involve a trial by jury.

I am not gloating, merely pointing out that he hasn’t (yet) been found innocent of the contempt charge, and a retrial, not handled in haste, could see him legitimately back behind bars.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 8:51 am

Judges work in a closed shop and heavily unionised industry.

The Law Society members very seldom criticise fellow members.

First rule of Tights Club ?
Don’t talk about Tights Club.

We’re fighting against the European Arrest Warrant because our laws say you’re innocent until proven guilty but you side with the EAW by stating that you’re guilty until proven innocent.

That’s what happens when you have a poor argument Spon.

You start arguing against your long held beliefs to make a short term point.

Rob McWhirter
on September 17, 2018 at 10:31 am

I’m NOT saying he’s guilty; I’m pointing out that there will be another trial which COULD send him back to gaol again…

This is a man who was told by the Canterbury judge, in unequivacal, unambiguous terms not to go near court trials again, and he said he understood, then did it. And now he’s up for contempt.

There was another chap from Zurich, oh yes, Einstein, who talked about people doing the same thing twice and expecting different results…

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 3:30 pm

@Spon,

You know how this works.

You used a link glorifying the imprisonment of Tommy Robinson after his wrongful conviction.

Using that link means you agree with the link’s contents. All plain and simple so far.

The link says TR is guilty and you agree.

That’s the problem with using our enemies against us.

You become the enemy.

Rob McWhirter
on September 17, 2018 at 4:41 pm

Are yiu refeerring to where Secret Barrister said “Importantly, Yaxley-Lennon admitted that he was in contempt of court.”? Guilty or Innocent, I agree with SB that Tommy has been an idiot, here.

The new trial mayfind him innocent, but it may well not.

When I quoted SB on why reading the BBC website was wrong, I didn’t reread the whole article, and, whuikst the tone may be gloating, I don’t think its substantially wrong.

FWIW, I predict the retrial, which unlike the appeal hearing I won’t be able to attend in person but will send a substitute, will end in re-conviction.

But with a radically reduced sentence. The only real “wrong” the second-time around was his drawing attention to a prison bag. A month for that, doubled because it was the second offence of a similar kind in (just) less than a year, makes five months, less time off for good conduct which gets us to 10 weeks, which is what he’s already served.

More jail time will make no sense and be unnecessarily cruel for his very young children, near Christmas, for what is a non-violent / non- personal gain offence. I expect he will be freed with restrictions (like not to go within 500 yards of a court).

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 4:39 pm

I know that this might unnerve the more tweedy among us but honestly just seen this (it’s a week old), and thought the young ruffian deserved his own say.

As a member for around 10 years I get that Ukip is a cross-Party libertarian, patriotic alliance (albeit constantly arguing within itself). But given what is happening to this country, if you want to remain libertarian in a free country, you’re going to have to get your head around it and join the fight to stop it.

A few weeks ago Gerrard spoke in the EU Parliament about the Nazi roots of the EU. It didn’t get much coverage here.

But in 2015 when I started to question Merkel’s inslamic invasion, I stumbled across a link which said the same, and when I got over the WTF reaction, I gradually found out about Kalergi, Cultural Marxism, Common Purpose and all the stuff which has periodically been mentioned on this site, that the purpose of the EU is to destroy the nations and cultures of Europe a la Kalergi, and that the (Labour) Marxists and (Tory) globalists are in effect two sides of the same coin, both hell-bent on our national destruction, and have been quietly working towards it for decades.

That the islamic invasion (preceded by the deliberate destabilisation of countries like Iraq, Libya and Syria) is part of that globalist plan and supported by all the main Parties is truly shocking but if Ukip wants to regain electoral relevance again, it has to open the electorate’s eyes to the treacherous complicity of their normal voting choices. And ours before we came to Ukip.

I would guess Tommy (unlike AMW) understands the picture is broader than the Islamic impacts alone and if so I would welcome him with open arms. His treatment has been shameful and a disgrace to this country. Likewise Melanie Shaw.

But Tommy on-side with Gerrard, exposing Common Purpose, Blair’s role in it, the incredible scale of its spread throughout the establishment, and its consequences; that I would welcome. He has a loud voice and many followers which is why the corrupted establishment are desperate to shut him down.

The fact that so many still struggle to recognise, even within Ukip, that our managed decline is deliberate, is a tribute to the skill with which Blair and friends have operated. But we all have mobiles and the means to re-educate ourselves. I suggest doubters use them and prepare to question their previous assumptions.

When did Batten say that Tommy was UKIP’s saviour? When did Batten say that he was grooming Tommy to take over as party leader as some have said? He has only said that Tommy should be allowed membership if he wants it.
If Tommy were admitted and wished to stand for office then he would have to go through the same processes as anyone else.
It seems to me that some commenters are more motivated by paranoia than rational thought.

ogga1
on September 15, 2018 at 10:51 pm

J,
Totally agree.

UK Homo Sap.
on September 15, 2018 at 6:00 pm

Accurately put, DavidL!

Mike Sterland
on September 15, 2018 at 8:29 pm

Putin’s a murdering, thieving criminal with the blood of thousands of Ukrainians on his hands.
He’s also responsible for several murders & attempts thereat here in the UK.
Assad’s culpable in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of his own people.
Are you intimating that we should ignore all this because they’ve killed some Islamist extremists?

Are we sure TR is anti muslim. I think he is trying to obey our laws. and Feminism supporter. When you go to the conference, go to some of the more nasty parts of Birminghamand, and try to walk for a quarter of a mile. On each street corner you will probably see a man in a log dress and sandals on bare feet. He is a local Sharie law enorcement officer for muslims. you will be approached and quite politeley be asked if they can help. From here on it gets nastier, and reminiscent of left wing political demonstrations.Perhaps you could be looking for an illegal slaughterhouse which slaughters dogs. Or a bigamist, or an illegal school. or a hate preacher, Or a wife beater. Or an illegal sharia court. Or an underage sex slave . Best you stay away.This is a No Go area. Get real and grow up. Go and live in Birmingham. Or Sweden. This is Theresa May’s legacy. Just let’s see you try and find a policeman. He’ll be sitting in a turbocharged police Bentley in Solihull.

Let’s be quite clear. At the age of 19 we all looked at politics and believed the communists. Anybody can change their minds, and banning because of something said or done in childhood is just silly. Next, being interviewed on telly means being a constantly blathered at , with no breathing space, incessant interuptions and rising and more shrill shouting almost screaming. TR deals with it effectively and doesn’t give an inch.

TR, AME, Nigel Farage, the young welsh fella even Henry and all the others who who have packed up and left leaving ukip, When they really just needed help and understanding ( Not the caring sympathetic type ) but the learning, experience explaining, bollocking type. Yep, even Nigel. He’s been in a pressure cooker for years. We are luckyhe didn’t explode and destroy everything and everybody. But we’re all too busy thinking of No.1. There is no place for brilliance in a bread pudding.

Rabbit
on September 15, 2018 at 5:34 pm

Most people don’t realise that “whites must leave at 8pm” is written on walls in those areas, and that the police never go there because everthing is dealt with under sharia law not under English law

Jake Bennett
on September 15, 2018 at 7:29 pm

And they still vote for more of it! Even TR could not rouse them out of their stupor.

One prevented a cultural enricher from crashing his car into Parliament. Can’t have been any good at his subject of engineering, as evri fule kno you choose a big heavy powerful vehicle and not something with “Corgi” or “Dinky” stamped on the bottom.

Oh, the irony.

martin macrae
on September 15, 2018 at 5:39 pm

T G Spokes: but this is part of ‘multicultural’ Britain, which there are only two words permitted: celibate!, embrace!
(always exhortations with exclamation marks. ). There being in the moral relativist word, no culture deemed superior, all are equal. Child-sex, wife beating and all the other things you comment on are just the same as things in any other culture, all cultures being equal. There is no right or wrong, that would be by white man’s magic/.
This moral relativism has been taught in all University liberal arts courses for the last thirty years and every single politician in place (Except UKIP) follows it to the letter. The fear, the FEAR politicians have of being accused of racism ( belief is geneitc according the the London Mayor), this FEAR that they may be tainted with the race card, and thus their career and possible ennoblement later at risk, is why we, in this country have to put up with the disgusting things being done in other cultures here in our country, all lightly brushed aside.
The extraordinary efforts the elite took to prosecute Tommy Robinson shows they are organized against any person who tries to reveal what is really going in in lovely ‘multicultural’ Britain. FEAR.

If I was a former culture spokesman I’d be protecting our culture by opposing other cultures crushing our culture.

Thank heavens we have Peter Whittle as our culture spokesman now.

The cowardice of some of the Tommy haters astounds me.

Porter
on September 15, 2018 at 1:51 pm

Tommy Robinson is far from being a ‘bone-head’, Mr Meacock. I strongly urge you to read his book ‘Enemy of the State’ and also
‘Mohammed’s Koran’, which he co-authored (both are on Amazon). I am also laying out below a couple of You Tube videos which I believe will give you a much more genuine view of his character and also of what has happened to him recently. I do hope that you — and all the readers of this post — will watch both of them. I feel that Tommy is an exceptionally brave man who should be supported.

WILL UKIP STAND BY TOMMY ROBINSON’S FIGHT AGAINST THE CHILD RAPE GANGS, OR NOT?

The author of this piece fails to mention the elephant in the room: Tommy Robinson has fought to expose the CHILD RAPE GANGS.

They have festered in many parts of England, for years, covered up by officialdom!!! It is precisely because of his campaign that the establishment has come down on him with exceptional ferocity and vindictiveness. If we abandon him we will appear complicit with his persecutors.

For years the MSM was complicit with the child rape gangs, not mentioning them, and then calling them “grooming” gangs (implying some willingness of their victims), and trying to say they were made up of “Asian” men, thereby slurring all Asians, (RACIALLY !), many of whose children are themselves victims of these gangs.

Tommy Robinson has pointed out that the gangs are made up of predominantly MUSLIM men, whose religion justifies the reduction of non-Muslim women to sexual slavery. The Koran allows it, and that is exactly how the ISIS thugs treated the Yazidi and other non-Muslim women whose lands they took over.

David Meacock also fails to contest the false establishment narrative that says “if you criticise Islam you are a racist”. Obviously, racism, to discriminate people because of their skin colour is wrong. But this has nothing to do with criticising ideas and ideologies, whether religious or political.

This lethal and stupid confusion between race and religion favours both the Islamist hardliners, who can fend off their critics as “racists”, and the real BNP-type racists who can use the fact that most Muslim perpetrators of atrocities happen to be brown-skinned to stir up racial prejudice and foment a race war. UKIP should campaign to clarify and and destroy this confusion which is poisoning so many minds.

When UKIP started, we were derided, slandered, and boycotted for wanting to leave the EU. But we stuck to our guns, we did not bow down and kowtow to political correctness. We won the country round, against all the odds.

We can, and must, do the same again on this other issue.

Kevin Baverstock
on September 15, 2018 at 11:28 am

The Police are arresting perpetrators on a near-daily basis and the courts are surely but steadily successfully prosecuting them and handing down hard sentences.
No political party on the right OR left has any truck whatsoever with the ‘child rape gangs’ and I cannot think of a single media outlet that is ‘complicit with the child rape gangs’.
We have to stop demonising an entire religion for the crimes of a perverse minority within that religion. Yes, the majority of these criminals are Pakistani Muslims, but no, that does not mean that Mr Khan in the newspaper shop is a danger to children.
Nor is every Muslim hiding a suicide bomb in his pants. There are millions of Muslims in the UK, and that will not be reversed, so we have to deal with the criminal elements, preferably with the full support of the decent Muslim majority.
The problem lies with enforcing the law and our treatment of the police who would carry out the investigations.
There are not enough policemen , due to Teresa May’s conflict with them, and budget cutting, going back years. Also since the Stephen Lawrence case the police are held to such a ridiculous burden of proof / neutrality that they have tended to be shackled.
The solution is not Tommy Robinson, its a new Prime Minister and Home Secretary.
UKIP will not get a single seat at the next election, it can only prevent those in marginal seats keeping theirs.
That very limited power will itself decline if UKIP takes any extreme stance.
Tommy Robinson may well be let into UKIP, and may well be elected leader next time, but he will not become Prime Minister, nor win any Parliamentary seat.

martin macrae
on September 15, 2018 at 5:53 pm

I invite you to read the Koran, this has taken much of my time to figure out its meaning, and I cannot find any. This book explicitly demands follower to ‘kill or put out of the country all non-believers’, and ‘stones are available for them’ (1935 translation). The book does that even before it outlies what the book is FOR. The prophet is reported to have married a five year old girl, returning for the marriage consummation when she was nine. I ask you to consider what readers may take as a guide for their life, from this particular act? Are the people who are being prosecuted for child-rape in the UK, from this belief,? Are they perhaps following the acts of their prophet, or is this just a pure coincidence? That is quite possible isn’t it? What are the press, government, police and the courts trying to do in limiting publicity for these acts, as Tommy Robinson says? Do these convictions show that multi-culturalism is not perhaps as wonderful as they insist?

Mr Bav, you write “The Police are arresting perpetrators on a near-daily basis and the courts are surely but steadily successfully prosecuting them and handing down hard sentences.”

Yet for years the child-rapists have been operating and for years the police simply didn’t want to know. They were afraid of being branded …. “racist”. The scandal was first exposed in Rotherham by an official report that estimated 1400 victims. Rotherham! where the social services removed a child from its foster-parents because they were supposedly “racist” UKIPPERS!!!!!! What more evidence do we need of the damage caused by the pernicious confusion between race and religion^

And since then, who has done more than any other to expose and oppose the child-rapists? If not a certain… Mr Tommy Robinson?

You say that the majority of Muslims are quiet law-abiding people etc. Sure. They are not the majority… yet. Biding their time doubtless, as their imams may suggest.

We need to look at their holy book, which recommends violent and/or deceptive behaviour (jihad and taqqiyya) towards non-believers. The Koran for them is the word of God himself, so to be taken literally, not just words inspired by God like the Bible.

And while most Muslims in Britain do not join in terrorist attacks, opinion polls show that surprisingly large percentages (double figures) of them, especially the young ones, approve of, or are sympathetic to, those who do. These passive, yet supportive, Muslims need to be shaken out of their complacency. They are the water in which the terrorist fishes swim. And then hundreds went to Syria to fight for ISIS. This terrorist frenzy is like a mental disease which suddenly strikes some young people. Is it a coincidence that it manifests itself almost exclusively amongst Muslims, not amongst the followers of any other religion? And not just in Britain, but throughout the world?

Not all Muslims are violent. I gather that the Ahmadi sect is non-violent. It is a minority, and in Indonesia they are persecuted by the Sunni majority. We need to encourage them.

In Britain we have a long tradition of religious toleration. I know it goes against the grain for us to stigmatise a whole religion. Yet when one particular religion preaches and practises radical intolerance of all others, then we need to stand back and examine it and its doctrines thoroughly, and take any necessary counter-measures to protect ourselves from it, rather than giving it carte blanche acceptance into our society.

Torquil, it was Karl Popper, if I recall rightly, who first asked at what stage does tolerating intolerance itself comprise intolerance. He proposed the paradox in the immediate aftermath of the most destructive war of all time; his motive was obvious.

What’s your view about this?

Grumpyashell
on September 15, 2018 at 11:36 am

Agreed, it is fear of taking on a new challenge after years of just being focused on one issue,if the party is to progress it has to change( strange that the remainers want to keep things the same whilst UKIP wants change,yet some are unwilling to embrace change in UKIP)… The party has to offer an alternative to the bland unquestioning status quo that we have got at the moment,only then will the voter take UKIP seriously,numbers matter,the more members,the better financial position,the more stalls,etc…….plus the voter will see us not a one issue party and will look at our other policies from the conference….just by looking on the Tommy Robinson Facebook page you can how many are following him,that shows the undercurrent feeling that many people see but is ignored by the establishment….just look at Italy where parties that were derided 5 years ago are now in power and are still gaining support from the people…they have broken the establishment narrative and the people like it

Jake Bennett
on September 15, 2018 at 12:29 pm

Torquil If fighting Islam and grooming gangs were such a vote winner then UKIP (the only mainstream party to raise the issue of Islam, mass immigration and child rape gangs) would be already prospering in the areas where grooming was most prevalent – but it ain’t. Anne Marie Water’s party (so insignificant I can’t even recall its name) would be thriving too – but it ain’t. Other alt-right political parties would be thriving – but they ain’t.

This is not in anyway intended to downplay the real threat of creeping Islam I really do share your concern but we must wholly commit ourselves to get Brexit through and not be sidelined by this issue which has the potential to pass a hatchet to the media with which to destroy us

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 3:49 pm

I’d rather save children from racist peadophile gangs than get elected.

Jake Bennett
on September 15, 2018 at 6:40 pm

Bryan I would rather do both.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 8:24 pm

Correct Jake. Me too.

A bit of a rubbish comment really. I shouldn’t be flippant about such an awful subject.

Jake, you seem to be suggesting that we follow the mainstream trend and ignore the child-rape gangs, because fighting them won’t win us any votes. That is exactly what mainstream opinion said about UKIP’s campaign to leave the EU when we started 25 years ago. The avalanche of silence and the smokescreen of propaganda is what stops these issues from being vote-winners at present. We must fight for what is right, not for what seems expedient at present.

Jake Bennett
on September 16, 2018 at 9:22 am

Torquil We are already the only party that is challenging child-rape gangs, cultural Marxism, mass immigration and fighting for free speech! Any person wishing to register their disgust at this can already vote UKIP.
We are not shirking this issue. Do we have to have to recruit TR to prove our bona fides on this issue?

StephenJ
on September 15, 2018 at 5:23 pm

Whilst I accept that Tommy Robinson makes many good points in his laddish way, and whilst I reckon that he has been very badly treated by the meeja and even more so, the establishment, I do not think that we should make any exceptions to Nigel’s ban on people such as him, joining UKIP.

Members of UKIP are free people, they are free to leave UKIP, they are free to join UKIP, people like Mr. Woolfe and Mr. Banks would be very welcome. They are also free to admire or refute Tommy’s campaign.

We should make clear that his campaign is NOT our campaign.

If we accept this bloke into our party, we are guaranteed to amass a vote of around 5% and unlikely to get any more than that.

StephenJ, Tommy Robinson’s campaign is to expose, oppose and stop the child-rape gangs.
I am speechless that you should say “his campaign is NOT our campaign”.

StephenJ
on September 15, 2018 at 7:49 pm

Torquil, the reason that I say that, is because it is the case.

Our campaign is to get our independence back, in order to restore our democracy. Tommy’s campaign is to get justice for people that have been abandoned by our establishment, that is bent on throwing its lot in with a bunch of nasty communitarian minded globalists.

So whilst many of us may sympathise with Tommy and the abominable treatment that he and those whose interest he is campaigning for, and I am one, the two do not have to be one.

As Mr. Meacock contends above, such an arrangement, which would be inevitable should a dynamic leader like Tommy get involved, would lead to the end of ANY chance restoring independence.

If we ever get independence, voters will able to vote for Tommy.

Messages do not gain strength through complication.

UKIP was at its best and most successful when it was campaigning for a referendum.

Mike Sterland
on September 15, 2018 at 8:44 pm

It’s HIS campaign, not ours. UKIP’s position on CSE is robust, explicit & thankfully not tainted by association with Tommy Robinson.
When will those making silly comments wake up to the fact that THE TOMMY ROBINSON BRAND IS POLITICALLY TOXIC.
If you can’t see that, then you’re not looking.

Mike Sterland
on September 15, 2018 at 8:36 pm

It’s not an “either or” situation.
I’m sure we’re all for having these groups of vile criminals committing CSE but that doesn’t mean we’re also for Tommy Robinson.
I can’t stand the little twerp myself & have made it plain his joining UKIP would result in my resigning my membership & the MSM laughing as they destroy UKIP with headlines of “We always KNEW UKIP & Kippers were racists!”.
We’re not talking about abandoning him, as he was never one of us (UKIP) in the first place. What we should be doing is ignoring him as an irrelevance.

Jim R
on September 15, 2018 at 9:22 pm

“I’m sure we’re all for having these groups of vile criminals committing CSE”. Are you sure?
Many might not be interested in your personal antagonism towards TR and consider one in, one out to be a very good result.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 9:40 am

@Mike,

As is your right, you’ll leave UKIP if UKIP demicratically decide to allow TR to join.

In times of struggle you find out who are posers and who are patriots.

So we accept that you’re off but where will you go ?

And, are there any more putting class before country?

StephenJ
on September 16, 2018 at 11:33 am

Yes Mike, I agree. I have been a member of UKIP almost continuously since 1996 or 7. The only times that my membership has lapsed was when Lord Pearson led the party, even though I voted for him, when renewal came up I didn’t bother, and it also lapsed during the shenanigans that led to Henry Bolton. After Gerard assumed temporary control, I rejoined, but now that he seems to have decided that the equivalent of 1930’s German Jew baiting is de rigueur.

StephenJ
on September 16, 2018 at 12:41 pm

…Apols, I didn’t finish my last comment, which should have read.

“I am minded to not renew my membership”.

I suspect that there are many like me who believe that UKIP has a massive opportunity, that is threatened by this posited policy change.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 16, 2018 at 3:45 pm

Stephen,

Are you saying that Jewish people in 1930s Germany were peadophile racist rape gangs or suicide killers in the name of their god ?

That has to be the most ludicrous use of Godwins Law ever written.

UKIP only has a brighter future if it attracts bright people to stand up for us while the Establishment throw verbal grenades at them.

It’s not a job for the faint hearted.

StephenJ
on September 17, 2018 at 6:05 am

No I am saying nothing of the kind, and you know it sir.

I suggest that you go and polish your tattos, or clean your piercings out. Your views are precisely the views that cause small parties to haemorrhage votes and members. Ordinary decent people will leave and you will be able to play your marching games with Tommy and the antifa hyaenas, but you will never get any real influence.

You are right, it is not a job for stout loyal Kippers.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 3:54 pm

As you’ve admitted, you flounce off when the going gets tough.

I’ve stayed on board because one person doesn’t control UKIP, represent UKIP or speak for UKIP. If you don’t like one Kipper you concentrate on others that you do. No need to wail for your own way like a toddler.

This will be your 3rd flounce.

I question your loyalty and your need to use Holocaust victims as collateral in a debate not involving Jews, Germans or Nazis.

StephenJ
on September 17, 2018 at 8:16 pm

You are being very selective in your approach to my comments aren’t you?

I am not going to spend any more time on this banal argument. I don’t flounce anywhere, in the same way that UKIP votes scare the blues and the reds, so members registering their displeasure at a counter productive policy change, can impress this onto the leadership by resigning.

My contention is that if Tommy’s argument is so resoundingly popular, he can start his own party and do very well… Oh no he can join the poisoned dwarf, who really did flounce off, when things didn’t go her way.

And you are probably a bit thick to cope with the point I made about jew baiting. But I will clarify for you, if you can cope. Picking on people because of a feature that a very small proportion are associated with, might be the intention, but the reality would indicate that it says much more about the people that start the process.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 17, 2018 at 9:34 pm

You worry more about Jew baiting 85 years ago than you do the innocent children drugged, kidnapped and passed from Muslim man to Muslim man across the UK.

You haven’t mentioned the victims once.

I can cure being “thick” by educating myself.

How will you cure your cowardice ?

(Ps, David Ramsbotham said I’m clever)
Pps, Please don’t forget that you will not spend any more time on this argument.

Ian
on September 15, 2018 at 10:43 am

I presume most or all the contributors to this discussion are UKIP members. Im not, but would join if TR did. You really are bonkers taking the hard stance on this. UKIP’s membership would literally double within a week. As you are aware, there is a massive populist movement in Europe, and allowing him to join would be the catalyst for UKIP to benefit from this movement and finally get a few bloody MP’s in parliament.

Jake Bennett
on September 15, 2018 at 12:34 pm

Ian Then let TR stand for Parliament as an Independent and let see how he fares.

Rhys Burriss
on September 15, 2018 at 3:26 pm

good point.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 3:54 pm

@JB,
So TR and UKIP can be equally unelectable ?

Stunning analysis Jake.

Jake Bennett
on September 15, 2018 at 7:11 pm

Bryan I simply cannot accept that TR would be an electoral asset for the Party.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 8:12 pm

Jake.

Who knows?

It’s how we all handle the inevitable divide and rule onslaught by the Remain Establishment.

It should be Brexit first and foremost to escape free movement.

TR and his supporters are Brexiters.

All Brexiters stick together.

Stout Yeoman
on September 15, 2018 at 10:13 am

UKIP’s internal feuding used to attract a lot of attention. No opportunity to taint and smear was ever missed. But now UKIP is barely worth a mention. The Daily Mail had an article on Batten’s support for TR – https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6147683/Ukip-leader-backs-moves-let-Tommy-Robinson-join-party.html – almost written as a balanced, general interest piece , but no other media have given TR’s potential membership any real prominence so far as it gets mentioned at all. Presumably UKIP is now so feeble it is no longer worth any kind of effort from the MSM at smearing it. That is quite an indictment of where the party has fallen to.

There is a class based fault line running through UKIP. On one side the patrician, middle class essentially Tory MEPs and donors, sharing with Remainers a horror at the country’s working class, and a more radical few, led by an Alliance of Christians and culture war warriors. This division, like a rumbling volcano, has been there for sometime.

We are asked to believe that McIntyre and the NEC mistook Alan Craig for a branch then, later, on realising there was no place and so branch called “Alan Craig”, rescinded approval. Pull the other one.

Jake Bennett
on September 15, 2018 at 9:40 am

David I share your view entirely. Nothing to gain and everything to loose by making an exception for TR to join the Party. UKIP is just getting back on its feet from our near fatal coronary lets continue with our recovery without any self-induced relapses.

Tony.T.
on September 15, 2018 at 9:32 am

Nobody has to even mention Mr. Robinsons name during such a discussion, perhaps nobody should? The discussion is purely ” do we want to change our constitution to allow members or previous members of formely proscribed organisations to join the UKIP in the future”

Tacitus
on September 15, 2018 at 9:30 am

The author fails to recognise that our current leader shares the views of TR. There is this strange reluctance to accept this reality. GB has photo ops with TR, not David Meacock. GB tweets support for AMW, not Steven Woolfe. If you are against TR, you are against GB.

Rhys Burriss
on September 15, 2018 at 3:31 pm

Well on this specific issue perhaps one is then ( against GB ). So be it. This issue, if it must be allowed to intrude in UKIP members’ deliberaations, should happen at next spring’s election of a Leader following GB’s promised standing down. It can be properly aired and debated with notice etc., rather than all in a rush at the AGM, with only a few persons having right to speak.

TR is playing ukip like his fiddle.

UK Homo Sap.
on September 15, 2018 at 5:34 pm

Like imperatorNero!

A lot of people clearly are Livyd about this issue

Rabbit
on September 15, 2018 at 5:40 pm

GB and Lord Pearson spoke at all the “Free Tommy” marches to Downing Street, and if Tommy gets banged up again when he goes back to court on 27 September, no doubt GB will speak in public for Tommy again.

Tacitus
on September 15, 2018 at 8:58 pm

Exactly. The person that GB has shown most support to under his leadership is TR. not anybody in UKIP. He is sending us a not-so-subliminal message. If GB had to choose the author of this article or TR, it would be TR. when will this sink in ?

Mike Sterland
on September 15, 2018 at 8:49 pm

Utter wibble.
I’m against TR joining UKIP but I’ll support GB until such point as he becomes a liability to UKIP.

Tacitus
on September 16, 2018 at 11:50 am

At what point does he become a liability, what’s your definition? He just managed to split the party down the middle, and for what? He couldn’t even get the issue put onto the conference agenda properly.

Grumpyashell
on September 15, 2018 at 9:22 am

Stepping back from the Tommy Robinson debate the fact is that UKIP is a party in transition. For years its main focus has been independence from the bureaucratic nightmare that is the EU. With the referendum result ( yes I know that we do not know yet what kind of deal is yet to be done by Deciever May), the party helped win the leave vote but in so doing lost its main reason for being.

The party now has to decide what it wants to be or do….fold up and say job done ( though by the looks of it there are further leave battles to fight),or become a force that questions and fights the overwhelming establishment narrative on all kind of topics including Islam.

When you step back and look at the whole political situation there is a stench of complacency,corruption and unquestioning acquiesence to the establishment narrative that has been given to us for years…does UKIP step up to the plate and take it on or not ?
The Tommy Robinson debate is just one of questions that the party has to decide on,,whilst still fighting the Brexit cause,but with one eye on the future and finding its way .

Kevin Baverstock
on September 15, 2018 at 8:38 am

The issue is the proscribed list and whether or not it can be waived in exceptional circumstances.
If TR is an exceptional case then It will mean his sponsor ( I assume Gerard ) explaining exactly why that exception applies to TR – and by definition to no one else – I see a number of issues there.
Unless the proscribed list is going to be open to interpretation when considering ALL applications- and that means a proper and time-consuming vetting procedure- then it will smack of being as unfair as parachuting blonde AM candidates into Wales to keep the totty on the payroll…. I haven’t heard any talk of that yet.
UKIP will change if TR gets in, for a number of reasons. First it will come very close to the date when Gerard stands down- I assume by March- and raise the question of whether TR would stand as leader.
Secondly, it will push a lot of people out of the party and back to the Tories- which I believe will happen anyway, and certainly if Johnson or Rees-Mogg gain power. Many have already joined in response to the Arron Banks ‘Blue Wave’ appeal.
Thirdly it will be all over the press and media, and eclipse absolutely any other issue at conference.

That’s showbiz…..

Julian Flood
on September 15, 2018 at 10:17 am

I’ve worked with Tories and I have worked with Labour. They are both a mix of good people and bad, but what rises to the top in both parties is a coterie of overly ambitious, self-serving and undemocratic contemptibles.

Anyone who leaves UKIP for the Tories is as blind as someone who leaves to join Labour.

Left and Right they are the same. Our task is to break the political cast, open up our democracy so that it rules in the interests of all our people, not the landowners, not the rich, not the bullying unions, not the property developers, not the bureaucrats, above all not the powerful.

And if that sounds like ‘Power to the people’ then so be it :it’s a good slogan with which to man the barricades.

JF

Kevin Baverstock
on September 15, 2018 at 10:50 am

Good Morning Julian.

UKIP seems to be going over to the ‘populist’ right, aping what is going on in parts of Europe but without the actual clout of more than a single digit percentage of the population behind it. It will fail to get any seats if it carries on like this.

There is a historical precedent, In the ’30’s Mosely, who only ever had a peak membership of around 55000, was caught out by two things, one was in demonising the Jews , which lost him his newspaper and financial support, and the other was that because the British people, with their wisdom, regarded him as ‘silly’ . They scoffed at the Blackshirts, and that is what really ended the movement.

Yesterday I e-mailed Viv a picture of Gerard Batten, in Brussels, at a UKIP press conference flanked by the so-called ‘Sargon of Akkad’ – famous to a few -and ‘Count Dankula’ – famous for his ‘comical’ ‘Gas the Jews’ nonsense which landed him in court .
It reminded me of The Three Stooges. Its getting silly.

Does Batten purport to be Moe, Larry or Curly?

Rhys Burriss
on September 15, 2018 at 3:37 pm

Yes it does rather give the impression of Grandad wanting to be seen to be ‘down with the kids’ and I suspect will be just as popular with them. Sargon of Akkad – for Heaven’s Heaven’s SAKE !

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 5:37 pm

@Kev,

We’re the working class left.

The Real Left, not the rich Left, the Liberal Left or the Socialist Left.

Rob McWhirter
on September 15, 2018 at 2:19 pm

The proscribed list can be waived any time the chairman wants, if the NEC agree.

And you don’t even mention the legal nightmare which would arise if UKIP seriously tried to justify A letting in TR as an exception to the rule and then B keeping the rule for thousands of persons who do not have TR’s list of serious criminal convictions across a spectrum of offending.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 5:39 pm

OMG !!

Runs around with hair on fire.

Men in wigs and tights are coming.

UK Homo Sap.
on September 15, 2018 at 5:40 pm

Now, anyone care to argue against that robust argument?

Hugo Jenks
on September 15, 2018 at 8:23 am

There has been a mistake: it is a mistake to make an exception for Tommy Robinson, but to continue to exclude ex-EDL members, who would make up the bulk of his followers, and hence the bulk of those who might join UKIP if he joined and they were allowed to.

It has not been well thought through. Either let all ex-EDL join or none of them. Presumably, the discretion for allowing ex-members of banned organisers would usually be for people who were less well known had not got into trouble and had a change of mind.

The article states: “the majority of voters who, not being particularly religious or having strong views on religion, don’t see Islam as a problem and therefore not only see any solution as irrelevant to their everyday lives, but also perceive anything remotely anti-Islam as equally being anti-Muslim and therefore racist.” Indeed. However, most of us (perhaps not Farage) know that it is Islam itself which is the problem. It already impacts many lives and will get far worse in coming decades. The problem is that UKIP has not communicated to the public the full horror of Islam itself. And jumped into addressing one symptom (the burka) without first doing the initial step of communicating with the public what the root problem is. Namely Islam – comprising the Koran and Mohammed.

t g spokes
on September 16, 2018 at 9:52 am

I would like to hearfrom an Islam suporting Christian, and a Christian supporting Muslim. NOT experts but experienced and clever. Say 70 years old.

“a Christian supporting Muslim”
err.. no. The Koran teaches that non-Muslims are destined for hell. Why would a genuine Muslim (i.e. one who has read and believes in the Koran) have any respect for Christianity?

Hugo Jenks
on September 15, 2018 at 8:08 am

Ceri – replying to your comment on the previous thread:
“Anne Marie Waters has been suspended from Twitter. Social media is a vital way to reach thousands of people. Who is deciding what is ‘acceptable’ material and what is not? And why is this sinister move towards gagging reasonable opinion? Is it because the elite have realised that social media plays a key part in the growth of populism?”

This is a worrisome development for everyone who wishes to speak the truth about difficult matters. We should be standing together on the matter of freedom of speech, whatever political party we may support. If we cannot have freedom of speech, and if de facto blasphemy against Islam is banned, then we can kiss goodbye to democracy, freedoms, human rights, etc. I wonder whether anyone in LibLabCon understands this principle? If they did, they would be supporting Tommy Robinson – and they do not seem to be.

Kevin Baverstock
on September 15, 2018 at 11:37 am

Twitter is deciding.

It’s a for-profit organisation and it alone has the power to select who it does and does not allow to publish on its sites.

So, anyone who misbehaves like a drunk in a pub gets banned by the guv’nor

That’s just the way it is.

Bryan Tomlinson
on September 15, 2018 at 5:46 pm

Twitter is governed by open borders pro-economic migration zealots that will flag up every comment that they judge as dangerous.

You can be sitting with your mates having a moan and if they overhear, “You’re barred.”

Harsher punishments are available.

Mike Sterland
on September 15, 2018 at 9:01 pm

Most of the “new media” is owned, controlled & regulated by “progressives” (they’re actually repressives) who are doing all they can to stifle views at odds with their own.
Anyone politically to the right of centre left is never going to be allowed to flourish in such a toxic & extremist environment, as these people don’t believe in debate, dissent or discussion due to their warped belief that only their views are viable.
UKIP & any other organisation that doesn’t fit the repressives mould needs to find alternative ways of getting their voice heard.

t g spokes
on September 16, 2018 at 9:44 am

So how difficult would it beto start a twitter competitor. Surely it can’t be a monopoly? You could call it twatter.

Tacitus
on September 16, 2018 at 10:13 am

there is one, called gab

t g spokes
on September 17, 2018 at 9:09 am

An inspired choice.

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