rdwaltonut wrote:Thanks for that insight/document. I can now say that he is a cheater and does deserve to be banned. Not just for the fact that he did dope, but lied about it, and aggressively went after anyone who did call him a cheater. It pains me to admit that I admired him during his time in the light. But am glad that he has been brought to justice. One thing that I hope is that Oprah didn't pay him for his confession. He doesn't deserve to make another dollar in any way attributed to this travesty.

Fear not sibling, you are not alone. I was once a true believer and said so many times but then I started having doubts. Man it tears at the spirit to learn yet another God has feet of clay. Especially when he was so forthright that they were porcelain.

...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.London Boy 29/12/2011

rdwaltonut wrote:Question. I thought I had heard about there being evidence, but I hadn't thought that it had come out publicly, so that everyone could see. I had heard about them having evidence, and then they stripped him of his medals. Is there a report about this release of evidence?

Wow. How long have you been incommunicado in the antarctic?

I have just moved to Australia in November, and before that, I never had television, just what was on at work. So i haven't been following it after they initially came out and stripped him of his medals.

rdwaltonut wrote:Question. I thought I had heard about there being evidence, but I hadn't thought that it had come out publicly, so that everyone could see. I had heard about them having evidence, and then they stripped him of his medals. Is there a report about this release of evidence?

Wow. How long have you been incommunicado in the antarctic?

I have just moved to Australia in November, and before that, I never had television, just what was on at work. So i haven't been following it after they initially came out and stripped him of his medals.

No TV? That's a good thing. My wife and I got a small colour TV handed to use from the in-laws when we were about mid thirties. It has been downhill the way since!

An observation that a positive of the whole Lance Armstrong sage (not talking about doping) is this...

With his fight against cancer and founding Livestrong, this put "the fight against cancer" in the spotlight in association with cycling (I am still getting to the point). What it has meant is that fighting cancer has become popular cause for charity rides. The Livestrong foundation can be criticised for not "fighting" cancer as many felt (yes it has high overheads and focusses on cancer support which is also valid) though the charity rides were see locally such as the Ride to Conquer Cancer and Tour de Cure have a stronger orientation to raising money to fight cancer.

While it is by no means a competition between good causes, has the profile of Cancer actually been increased because of Lance?

It doesn't excuse him for his ongoing lies and he has caused a lot of damage but it is possible that beyond his reach he is indirectly responsible for some goodness.

AUbicycles wrote:While it is by no means a competition between good causes, has the profile of Cancer actually been increased because of Lance?

It doesn't excuse him for his ongoing lies and he has caused a lot of damage but it is possible that beyond his reach he is indirectly responsible for some goodness.

Locally, people like Glen McGrath have done a lot more to raise Cancer awareness as well as fund research that improves treatment etc., - without cheating anybody.

It's sometimes difficult to know how much of a charities fund-raising goes to the end-cause, but Livestrong has a record of doing very poorly in that regard - and that's another reason to discount the merit of Livestrong.

Livestrong has done some good, but there are more effective ways to attack cancer, and most of us would be better off funding cancer charities that don't have the questionable relationship of Livestrong and Armstrong.

WombatK

Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us -Jerry Garcia

Sure, I wasn't covering Armstrongs own actions, moreso the rub-off effective where others set charity races and events to support cancer research - and whether this movement can (or can not) be loosely attributed to what Armstrong set in motion.

AUbicycles wrote:While it is by no means a competition between good causes, has the profile of Cancer actually been increased because of Lance?

I also felt it was more about Hollywood type PR than funding for practical research and treatments. At the same time, have seen and read plenty of patients and carers' personal stories through LS material as well as private communications, ones that have been given empowerment over their disease. Is there value in that? I think so. Is it something I want to dish out my support in dollar term? Not at the top of the list.

Taking it in another angle. LS is more like a religion, one that gives cancer sufferers hope and confidence but without root cause treatment of their cancer.

In regard to Armstrong's penalty, in my view, it is both fair and proportionate.

A few years ago I held the view that he almost certainly doped but that as pretty much everyone in the pro tour was also on the juice then it was a sort of level playing field.

I now hold a different view.

Drug taking for those at the top of the tree was an "almost" risk free decision. Forget about being caught, We now know that was risk free. The real risk was with the athletes health or indeed their life.

With access to the best doctors, monitoring equipment, and staff to assist, there was a very low risk of killing yourself using epo, testosterone etc etc. However, for those who were riding in the poorer teams or indeed trying to crack into the big time, and who had no such access to the best advice, it was a bit of a lottery when they doped. In 2003 - 04 alone there were seven young men who died, in all probability due to PED use. http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/39997062/ There are of course the mothers and fathers, brothers, wives etc of those men who would no doubt continue to grieve.

What has this got to do with LA?

Clearly, he did not put the needle in their arm, nor did he push them to dope directly - as he is reported (but denied), doing to those in his team who rode with him.

No, what Armstrong, Johan Bruyneel and all those involved with Tailwind Sports are guilty of, apart from the doping itself, is that they raised the bar so high, with their elaborate and highly sophisticated doping regime that others with less resources felt compelled to roll the dice with the hope of some how keeping up. Some of those others drew the short straw and ended up in an early grave.

LA with US Postal was the major force in road cycling for the a big chunk of the nineties and beyond. What they did, how the conducted themselves, had a major influence on the sport itself and on every other team on the tour.

They ramped it up to the max, others followed, some died. In my view LA deserves every minute of his life ban.

Lance Armstrong under Federal Criminal Investigation. It was always strange why Birotte stopped the earlier Federal investigation without reason (rumours he was pressured by some influential politicians including Clinton).

"Federal investigators are in the midst of an active criminal investigation of disgraced former Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong, ABC News has learned.

The revelation comes in stark contrast to statements made by the U.S. Attorney for Southern California, Andre Birotte, who addressed his own criminal inquiry of Armstrong for the first time publicly on Tuesday. Birotte's office spent nearly two years investigating Armstrong for crimes reportedly including drug distribution, fraud and conspiracy -- only to suddenly drop the case on the Friday before the Super Bowl last year.

Sources at the time said that agents had recommended an indictment and could not understand why the case was suddenly dropped.

Today, a high level source told ABC News, "Birotte does not speak for the federal government as a whole."

According to the source, who agreed to speak on the condition that his name and position were not used because of the sensitivity of the matter, "Agents are actively investigating Armstrong for obstruction, witness tampering and intimidation."