Well, since the knife vs. bat thread was so popular, how about knife vs. gun? Let's say the scenario is: Two men, standing ten feet apart, one man has a pistol tucked into his strong side rear hip waistband, so no holsters or straps. He' s wearing a T-Shirt. The other man has a tactical folder, closed, clipped inside his strongside pocket. Just for fun, we'll say it's two gangbangers, so one has to die. Wounded doesn't really count. They each have decent knowledge of how to use their weapons, and of fighting, so no "Gangsta style" shooting (horizontal pistol) or West Side story (big slashing arcs) knife fighting.

I'm going with the knife on this one. Either man could choose to crash but the knife is simply the more versatile weapon, more angles. The gun only has one, a point.

If I had the knife I think I would most likely close empty hand then go from there. ?Surviving Edged Weapons? has a good clip of Guro I. taking down an officer with a blade before he could draw his piece. The only thought I would take into account is ?don?t carry anything that doesn?t fit comfortably up your @$$.? Once I closed I would make sure the gun was neutralized then take out the knife.

I dunno, think I'd have to go with the gun, assuming a decent stopping caliber. Think the gun guy could sacrifice a leg with a foot jab and pump Mr. knife full of holes. Gun could also sprint to cover, an option not available to knife.

If gangbang machismo is the operative ethic than knife could pull it off. If sound tactical training is employed, though, I think gun will take the day.

Interesting question. IMHO it depends on who has the better draw. Knifeman must close the distance while deploying his weapon. While Gun guy only has to draw and shoot. Most knife people unfortunitly don't train deploying their weapons effectively.

If the knife was already drawn I would go with the knife. But in this scenerio I will take the pistol.

Myke

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I don't post much, mostly just read so I will let you know my background before I answer. I am a police officer. I am a trainer for my department in firearms, defensive tactics and taser. I have a background in several martial arts, dating back to childhood, but I am fairly new to Filipino arts.

This question, to me, would come down to action versus reaction. Basically, if they are of similar skill, the first one to make a move would probably win. At this close a distance I would give the knife a slight edge (LOL) but a handgun is still a very effective weapon, even while grappling. The average persons perception/reaction time is 1.5 seconds. If you pair that down .5 second since the individual in this scenario would already be keyed up, that still gives the initiator a full second to close the 10 feet and attack or draw and fire. That is a decent amount of time for a trained person to be able to do it.

The other factor is, do both people know they are in a deadly force encounter? If both weapons are concealed, neither one may be aware of the fact that the other is ready for a deadly force encounter. Most cuttings I have worked involve a victim who never saw the knife until after he was cut. Usually the guy that shows off the knife is more of a bluffer, while someone who plans to cut will keep the knife hidden while they get as close as possible for the sneak attack. A gunman, on the other hand, will usually present the weapon as a display of force whether he intends to use it or not. I have never shot anyone, but I have pointed handguns at more people than I can count. I was ready, but they chose not to be shot. I have never cut anyone either. I have been ready to do so, but the knife stayed in my pocket the whole time.

I remember seeing some police footage of a shootout about 8 years ago. The officer had pulled someone over. The clip shows the officer and the other fellow standing behind their doors about ten feet or so apart. The pair end up firing several rounds at each other with none of the bullets hitting. Now, I don't have much experience handling firearms but the pair in the clip probably have. So in this heightened state, life or death encounter, two people most likely skilled with firearms were unable to hit each other at a relatively short distance. just something i remembered.

Oh, and lest we forget, there's a scene in "The Magnificent Seven" where there's a duel between the knife fighter and a gun slinger. One of my favorites in the movie, they start at about 10 feet apart too. The knife guy wins.

check out isrmatrix.org the cops/military section. spider guard vs knife to buy time needed to draw.

cool stuff but in the footage you mentioned the gun guy lets the knife guy stab him in the femoral a couple times as he draws his weapon

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The whole knife vs. gun is so subjective. There are a variety of things that influence it, most important is the level of the gun fighter, I have seen the 21' rule disproved countless times by a trained gun fighter. One big issue is that a lot of people don't work on drawing the gun while in struggle or under pressure, this makes a huge difference in how well you do.

I have a friend who survived an edged weapon attack at clinch range and amanged to draw his gun and survive the encounter, this was mainly due to the fact he knew how to engage in the clinch, and draw under pressure.

a few more variables are type of pistol. and caliber as well as load. stance and hold of pistol. if the pistol holder retained the pistol closer to his body as the opponent closed this can be crucial.a powerful load would make follow up shots harder but hits more effective. .357mag and .45 would be my choice. smaller calibers would be less desired though special loads like fed hydrashoks and such could make a difference.

imho i would still side with the knife. my options for the knifer may include to his face and possibly his weapon hand, as well as slashes to the neck, weapon arm, armpit, etc.

pistol holders options include dropping to the ground to his back, retaining pistol close to body as he closes, possibly sacrificing his legs to make space for a cleaner shot.

Murder charges filed against State College manFrom CDT staff reportsSTATE COLLEGE -- A State College man was arraigned on charges of first- and third-degree murder this afternoon after State College police found a body and signs of a violent struggle at the man's home on Nimitz Avenue.Andrew A. Rogers, 28, was being taken to the Centre County Courthouse annex for a bail hearing following his arraignment before District Judge Allen Sinclair at about 2 p.m.State College police have scheduled a news conference to provide details of the investigation at 3:30 p.m.According to court papers filed by police, Rogers and two men who were at his home Thursday night became involved in a violent struggle.Rogers told police the struggle began when he saw one of the men looking at some cash he had. Rogers told police he used a rolling pin and a baseball bat during the fight with the two men, and that one of the men pulled a gun from a backpack.According to the account Rogers gave police, he hit the man with a baseball bat, and he dropped the gun. Rogers said he saw the other man pick up the gun and point it at him, and does not remember anything else, according to court records.According to the affidavit filed by police, Rogers said he awoke to find himself on top of one of the men. Rogers said he ripped off his own, bloody clothes, then checked the man's throat and couldn't find a pulse, according to court records.According to police, Rogers told them he then washed off, packed a suitcase, took a wallet from the man's body and left the house.State College police around 8 p.m. Monday were contacted by Uniontown police, who said Rogers went to them, said he wanted to talk to someone and said, "I think there may be a body in my kitchen."State College police went to Rogers' home and found a decomposing body lying in the kitchen, with multiple injuries to the face and head, according to court papers. Blood and evidence of a scuffle was seen throughout the home.

A nation of one ancestry and race is weak. We must hold strong our custom of welcoming all foreigners who seek to join our cause, treating them with dignity and respect and teaching them our language and customs.

If the knifer is any good, he will win MOST of the time. The gap can be closed so fast it is scary.

He doesnt have to strip the gun, just prevent it from being drawn. OR "make it flat" of his body by keeping the gunman's weaponflat on against the body (of the knifer) it makes it very hard to do much but get a nasty case of slide bite if the gun discharges. Plus at that range a heavy knife could be thrown WHILE closing the gap for a take down and do a lot of damage.

It seems to me that implicit in this discussion is the notion that the knife guy is in motion while the gun person keeps feet planted. There is no reason why the person with the gun can't be in motion too; moving toward any intervening piece of cover while drawing would give the gun person a big advantage, one the knifer can't hope to gain. Unless it is posited the gun guy can't move as fast as the knife guy run away or run to cover are both options that can be employed.

I also note in the Google movie that the gun folks don't attempt to do anything but unholster their weapon. IMO this sort of set response to a dynamic situation is foolish, as the movie proves out. There are a number of techniques that could be used by the gun person; just because you have a gun doesn't mean you can't evade the force, meet the force, follow the force, and so on.

I also think it should be considered that a pocket-knife as opposed to a Bowie or Kukri or some other large fighting blade is a time killer. It doesn't have much shock effect. Armed with a machete or blade than is more sword than knife is a different issue. IF we are talking about a folder as postulated I think folks are overestimating its ability to immediately incapacitate.

You may be able to eventually kill the person but not before a determined adversary will launch a few rounds.

Firearms are much more likely to shut down the CNS than a spyderco. It doesn't mean its a "better" weapon but simply that slashing with a pocket-knife doesn't have the effect of a 9mm HP in the vitals.

IMHO if the knifer knows what he is doing the blade won't be seen until he is on top of you. If he is serious in doing harm he won't be waving the blade around to give the person with the pistol a chance to draw.

They will approach you then attack. What are you going to do shoot because you think he might have a weapon.

Myke

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IMHO if the knifer knows what he is doing the blade won't be seen until he is on top of you. If he is serious in doing harm he won't be waving the blade around to give the person with the pistol a chance to draw.

They will approach you then attack. What are you going to do shoot because you think he might have a weapon.

So we are assuming the knifer is a homicidal maniac and the gunner has to stand and wait until intentions are fully revealed before reacting?

If someone is charging me full bore it's a fair bet they want to do me harm. Should I blow his fanny away my line would be "I was in fear of my life and used what force I had to."

If the gun guy knows what he's doing there are numerous choices already cited that he can make:

Evade the force. Use footwork to angle out until the threat is fully ID'd and then cap the knifer's butt.

Meet the force. I've mentioned a foot jab a couple times now. Another way to meet the force would be to sprint right back at the knifer and hit him with a flying knee before he got the blade around. While sparring I've also had luck stopping charges by doing a dive roll at an attacker's ankles.

Follow the force. Redirect the charge using the attackers momentum against him ala Judo or Aikido et al.

Again, a lot of the postulation here seems to assume a well trained knifer and a flat footed gunner. FMA techniques, however, also apply to firearms and can be used every bit as adroitly. In my case if I was in this situation it would be a pretty good bet that I'd have a concealed knife in my weak hand as well as a firearm on my hip. I sure as hell wouldn't just be standing there waiting for an attacker's intentions to be fully revealed.

I said nothing about a flat footed gunner. You can move all you want. But if you don't see a weapon what is you justifacation of firing your weapon. I was in fear for my life? From a guy walking up to you with hands in pocket?

Most assailants will not run up on you like a mad man.

Myke

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Well, since the knife vs. bat thread was so popular, how about knife vs. gun? Let's say the scenario is: Two men, standing ten feet apart, one man has a pistol tucked into his strong side rear hip waistband, so no holsters or straps. He' s wearing a T-Shirt. The other man has a tactical folder, closed, clipped inside his strongside pocket. Just for fun, we'll say it's two gangbangers, so one has to die. Wounded doesn't really count. They each have decent knowledge of how to use their weapons, and of fighting, so no "Gangsta style" shooting (horizontal pistol) or West Side story (big slashing arcs) knife fighting. Laz

The demonstration in the google video was more about the effect of the reactionary gap, where there is an unsuspecting man with a gun. In that context it is not ludicrous. The point is by the time you recognize that an attack is taking place and you have formulated and executed a response, the attacker has closed the gap.

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I said nothing about a flat footed gunner. You can move all you want. But if you don't see a weapon what is you justifacation of firing your weapon. I was in fear for my life? From a guy walking up to you with hands in pocket?

Not trying to be obtuse here, just can't figure out why it's assumed the knife is on offense and the gun is on defense. Yeah, the knife guy can saunter up to apply his weapon, but turn that around and the gun guy can put 2 in the center of mass at 25 yards, too. Don't understand why only one side of the equation can employ their weapon with preemptive impunity.

The demonstration in the google video was more about the effect of the reactionary gap, where there is an unsuspecting man with a gun. In that context it is not ludicrous. The point is by the time you recognize that an attack is taking place and you have formulated and executed a response, the attacker has closed the gap.

I think that the context the video is ludicrous since it dealt so much with the condition of the holstered handgun and ignored issues like movement, pre-assault cues, positioning, etc.

It has been common knowledge in the law enforcement profession that you can't outdraw a suspect within a few paces. That's a well-documented issue and very well known.

Hopefully the art has moved past such a basic issue but apparently not.

It also doesn't really deal with the issue postulated in the begnning of this thread which implies some sort of "agreed to" combat not a situation where one party is caught unaware.

If one side is unaware that an attack is impending it is inconsequential what weapon the other party has if it is remotely lethal.

"If one side is unaware that an attack is impending it is inconsequential what weapon the other party has if it is remotely lethal. "

This is all I'm saying Michael, I'm not saying that the knife is superior or that the video is evidence of it. I'm only asking if this is the Tueller drill and making the point that initiative is king in most encounters.

In fact I agree with pretty much everything you have said so far.

Respectfully,

Carlo

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The Tueller drill is done at sevn yards and is typically an equal initiative exercise which is what I believe the weakness of the research is.

Dennis Tueller conducted the research simply because back in the 70's juries believed that in order to justify the use of lethal force against a suspect with an edged weapon, the suspect had to be touching you to be dangerous.

This research exposed the fallacy in that line of thought.

Unfortunately we've now gone too far in the other direction believing that we can handle any type of problem inside of 21 feet with our trusty spyderco.

A Friend that I train with had a student question him on this very thing the student always said durring lessons ya but if i had my gun this wouldn't work. One day My friend we'll call him pirate told the student to bring his gun into class (unloaded) Pirate brought his 8" folder that he always carries and told his student to holster his wepon any way he saw fit for a fight. Pirate told the student to draw three times. at any speed the faster the better. Now they we're not ten feet away more like five but you will see what I;m trying to say. the first draw pirate had the knife out and up against the students neck. the gun was still holsterd at the tip of the barrlethe second try Pirate had the knife to the students eye resting the blade on his cheak and he also had the students had locked so he could not draw his gun. the student did not continue with the demo he stated that he got the point.. no pun intended..So I say the Knife has it till someone shows me differnt..

A Friend that I train with had a student question him on this very thing the student always said durring lessons ya but if i had my gun this wouldn't work. One day My friend we'll call him pirate told the student to bring his gun into class (unloaded) Pirate brought his 8" folder that he always carries and told his student to holster his wepon any way he saw fit for a fight. Pirate told the student to draw three times. at any speed the faster the better. Now they we're not ten feet away more like five but you will see what I;m trying to say. the first draw pirate had the knife out and up against the students neck. the gun was still holsterd at the tip of the barrlethe second try Pirate had the knife to the students eye resting the blade on his cheak and he also had the students had locked so he could not draw his gun. the student did not continue with the demo he stated that he got the point.. no pun intended..So I say the Knife has it till someone shows me differnt..

If an expert with a knife confronts an incompetent person with a firearm, the knife will obviously win.

Another key issue is lethality. A four inch Spyderco has the POTENTIAL to do tremendous damage in skilled hands. Knives' lethality (particularly small blades) depend greatly upon the skill of the user even when they make contact. Firearms, if they make contact, do not depend on anything except the destructive capacity of the projectile.

The fact that no knife culture rules the world, nor has for the last 300 years, should give us some clues as to why people believe in guns.

Even a true blade expert like Tuhon Chris Sayoc carries a pair of 1911's despite his obvious expertise with a blade.

If one does not train with firearms in a live, martial fashion they will indeed be less than useful. The same is true of the blade. I deal with far more fatal shootings than fatal stabbings and I see quite a few.

The FBI's UCR indicates that about 13% of homicides are committed with knives. Since knives are waaaaay more prevelent than guns, this seems to indicate their lethality in untrained hands is far lower.

We regularly work the counter knife drill full contact in my training group and success is completely related to individual attributes rather than any particular weapon.

Woof, I've discussed an ambulatory stop for this situation that the gunman can use very effectively to end the threat of the knife getting to him, on another gun thread. The person holding the knife is the delivery system for the knife; if you render him incapable of covering the distance between you and him, it's not likely the knife will reach you either. Taking away his ability to move with an advanced hand gunning technique that's quick and accurate is not an option I've seen brought up here. It's a nice little method to have in your bag of tricks. I can't go into details here because the thread is on the Dogbrothers' members only site. Something to think about though. P.C.

Woof, I would rather have two 12 gauge shotguns holstered on my hips. However, since I had a great deal of trouble keeping my pants up, I'd be fairly content with two 1911's. Can't go around scareing all the women. By the way Myke keep your head in the game over there and best wishes. P.C.

Just a quick yip as a bit of a teaser: The seminar Gabe Suarez and I just gave this past January was very much about the themes of this thread-- and yes there will be a DVD, the working title of which is "DLO 2: Bringing a Gun to a Knife fight".

Well, since the knife vs. bat thread was so popular, how about knife vs. gun? Let's say the scenario is: Two men, standing ten feet apart, one man has a pistol tucked into his strong side rear hip waistband, so no holsters or straps. He' s wearing a T-Shirt. The other man has a tactical folder, closed, clipped inside his strongside pocket. Just for fun, we'll say it's two gangbangers, so one has to die. Wounded doesn't really count. They each have decent knowledge of how to use their weapons, and of fighting, so no "Gangsta style" shooting (horizontal pistol) or West Side story (big slashing arcs) knife fighting.

I'm going with the knife on this one. Either man could choose to crash but the knife is simply the more versatile weapon, more angles. The gun only has one, a point.

Laz

I think the man who decides to kill the other man first, with conviction, cool deliberation, and maintaining the element of surprise, regardless of the weapon, has the advantage.

Those skilled in guerilla warfare have shown throughout the last 200 years that, with proper tactics, you can defeat a much better armed opponent by controlling the perameters of the engagement. Guerillas negate the western firepower advantage by fighting inside the range of our heavy weapons. In other words, fighting so close that we can't bring our big guns to bear without killing our own guys. They excell at close range fighting, and many do it better.

The same with the knife fighter in the above scenario. In a stand up 'Draw and go' duel, the gun fighter has an advantage in knowing that the fighting is coming, then it's who draws and gets the lethal hit off. However, if the knife fighter uses subterfuge, and controls the timing and distance, then he wins.

"I was in fear of my life and used what force I had to". I don't get it. In CA if you didn't "see the knife out of his pocket in his hand" and he is merely "running up to you like a madman" and you shoot him,he may be dead, but you will go to prison with his friends for maybe 20+. That's not self defense; that's murder. Actually, if you don't see the drawn knife and you draw your gun you probably have committed a crime by displaying excess force.

And if you shoot him, well as I said, you are the one doing time and hisfamily will collect your house and other assets. As a side note, it is legalto carry a folded folding knife nearly anywhere in CA; by definition therefore there is no "perceived lethal threat"; are we to assume in this scenario that the other other guy (you) has a CCW permit, something very difficult to obtain in CA?

If not, let me get this straight; you are going to shoot someone with an illegal weapon who is committing no crime other than waving his arms and making a fistand "running up to you like a madman" who may have a folding knife that youhave not seen open? Unless they find his body with an open knife, as I said, maybe 20+.

I think stealth is one of the advantages of the knife; it can be hidden and given the scenario andmost scenario's the gun is exposed. In reality the average man with the gun needs to think twice before he draws and shoots. We are not in Iraq, nor in most instances are we law enforcement. Therefore, a decisions needs to be made; is lethal force justified and later will it be justified before twelve? Tough to do in CA. Yes, I know, "better to judged by twelve, than..." but prison is not a great place to spend my remaining years either. james

"I was in fear of my life and used what force I had to". I don't get it. In CA if you didn't "see the knife out of his pocket in his hand" and he is merely "running up to you like a madman" and you shoot him,he may be dead, but you will go to prison with his friends for maybe 20+. That's not self defense; that's murder. Actually, if you don't see the drawn knife and you draw your gun you probably have committed a crime by displaying excess force.

And if you shoot him, well as I said, you are the one doing time and hisfamily will collect your house and other assets. As a side note, it is legalto carry a folded folding knife nearly anywhere in CA; by definition therefore there is no "perceived lethal threat"; are we to assume in this scenario that the other other guy (you) has a CCW permit, something very difficult to obtain in CA?

If not, let me get this straight; you are going to shoot someone with an illegal weapon who is committing no crime other than waving his arms and making a fistand "running up to you like a madman" who may have a folding knife that youhave not seen open? Unless they find his body with an open knife, as I said, maybe 20+.

I think stealth is one of the advantages of the knife; it can be hidden and given the scenario andmost scenario's the gun is exposed. In reality the average man with the gun needs to think twice before he draws and shoots. We are not in Iraq, nor in most instances are we law enforcement. Therefore, a decisions needs to be made; is lethal force justified and later will it be justified before twelve? Tough to do in CA. Yes, I know, "better to judged by twelve, than..." but prison is not a great place to spend my remaining years either. james

California is it's own place. Elsewhere in the 'less civilized' United States, states are passing enhanced castle doctrine laws that protect law abiding citizens from over-zealous prosecutors and civil trial lawyers seeking to make a buck off the death or injury of a career criminal by law abiding citizens.