If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

I told George NOT to use the double-bladed lightsabre in the original trilogy. I thought it would be best not to use such a formidable weapon against a Jedi-in-training like poor Luke. Plus, I insisted, Vader's already mechanically enhanced. Why bother giving him two blades? George agreed and we shelved the idea until he started work on the Ewok movies.

Originally, the Ewok movies were to take place sometime before the events of Episode IV, while there were still a few more Jedi left in hiding. One of them was holed up on the forest moon of Endor, hanging out with the Ewoks. When Cindel's ship crashes, the Ewoks discover it and send for the Jedi (also a humanoid character in the first draft) to help translate Basic. George said something like, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if this Jedi were completely different from Luke or Ben in some way." And I said, "You mean like NOT total losers?" And George said, "No, I'm talking about a look. He needs to be unique, something special, something reminiscent of the original Jedi Order before the Empire came along."

So we kicked ideas around, mostly concerning costumes, bad dialog, and facial tattoos. Then George wanted to revisit the idea of this guy having a double-bladed lightsabre. I said, "What are you, nuckin' futs? This guy's a Jedi, not a Sith Lord. A sabre like this is more likely to be used for attack than defense. It goes against the Jedi code!" He called up this kid he knew in Jersey, "Kevin" somebody, who agreed, but thought the idea of a Jedi on Endor was pretty lame anyway. So we scrapped it.

George and I parted ways after the Ewok movies and rarely get together anymore. Scheduling conflicts... you know, stuff. I wasn't really surprised to see a Sith character wielding a sabre like that in Episode I, and was pretty happy with the way it was portrayed. It goes to show you, as with all of the Star Wars films, the technology isn't the thing, it's the human quality that helps us overcome the odds.

Originally posted by stillakid Then how do you explain the Midichlorians?

Midichlorians are a plot device George is using for the next two films. It's a setup for the annihilation of the Jedi. They serve their purpose in the prequels and aren't necessary in the O.T.

Most have been asking, "Where the heck did these Midichlorians come from?" That's a pretty silly question to ask in the first chapter of a six chapter book. Star Wars fans have been spoiled with the knowledge of what's to come. They expect to already know everything about George's universe just because they've seen the second half of the tale.

From a storytelling point of view, the correct question would be, "Why do we need midichlorians?" It seems pretty obvious that this is not only an important enough plot device to create, but one that becomes obsolete in the Original Trilogy, hence no mention of it. George needs a way to get rid of the Jedi so that Palpatine can bring the empire to power. Midichlorians are a pretty convenient way to single out Force-wielders from common folk.

My point was that it doesn't matter what kind of fancy-schmancy sabre you've got. You might as well ask "Where were the AT-STs in A New Hope?" Some focus too much on the details without looking at the big picture. Once the Saga is complete, all its pieces will have clear meanings.

The silliness of details

Midichlorians are a plot device George is using for the next two films. It's a setup for the annihilation of the Jedi. They serve their purpose in the prequels and aren't necessary in the O.T.

Most have been asking, "Where the heck did these Midichlorians come from?" That's a pretty silly question to ask in the first chapter of a six chapter book. Star Wars fans have been spoiled with the knowledge of what's to come. They expect to already know everything about George's universe just because they've seen the second half of the tale.

From a storytelling point of view, the correct question would be, "Why do we need midichlorians?" It seems pretty obvious that this is not only an important enough plot device to create, but one that becomes obsolete in the Original Trilogy, hence no mention of it. George needs a way to get rid of the Jedi so that Palpatine can bring the empire to power. Midichlorians are a pretty convenient way to single out Force-wielders from common folk.

My point was that it doesn't matter what kind of fancy-schmancy sabre you've got. You might as well ask "Where were the AT-STs in A New Hope?" Some focus too much on the details without looking at the big picture. Once the Saga is complete, all its pieces will have clear meanings.

"Patience."

Convenient plot device? You got that right, and a weak one at that. You're seriously suggesting that the Midichlorians are now some kind of Nazi-branding scheme in the whole Star Wars universe? Not only do all my previous arguments hold about the ridiculousness and incorrectness of Midichlorians being introduced in the first place, but supposing you are correct about the, how shall we call it now..."the test", it's even dumber than I could have imagined. As a story plot device, it's as subtle as a bull in a china shop (overused metaphor intentional). This only adds more proof that GL is no writer. He needs help. (Where were you Kasdan when we needed you?)

And "where were the AT-ST's"? That argument is just as ridiculous in this context. That's a hardware question through and through and has little to no bearing on story structure whatsoever. The same goes for the double-bladed lightsaber. It's all just hardware. But, sudden inclusion of what makes the Force tick and/or what makes a person a Jedi, after it had all been explained is ludicrous. I'm not interested in recapping every solid point that has been previously made that discounts the validity of Midichlorians, but suffice it to say that any attempt to rationalize their existence falls apart when you actually review Episodes 4, 5, and 6. Suggesting that all precedent established by those films is null and void just because we've gone back to the beginning is, how did you call it...silly. Even though this was titled, Episode number One, it is still the Fourth story to be told in the series which necessatates GL's staying true to the established continuity. He hasn't done that and no argument or rationalization can change that.

A story well told will never contradict itself. If Midichlorians were part of the grand scheme all along, then Old Ben and/or Yoda would have told Luke. Period. I am aghast that anyone who has ever paid attention to the actual story (not those who just get their giggles from the pretty pictures) can just let that slide. Midichlorians aren't irrelevant. They're everything! According to Ep I, they are what make somebody a Jedi. If that was true, what excuse did Luke's masters have for conveniently leaving that out of his training? Is that a "silly" question too?

Look at it this way. Vader didn't "sense" Luke until after he had had just a little bit of training from Old Ben. Hurtling down the trench, Vader now knows that there is a new disturbance in the Force. Keeping that in mind, jump forward/back to young Anakin who has had no training. Qui Gon can not "sense" him, but Anakin supposedly has this super-lotto count of Midichlorians in him that enable him to fly Pod Racers when no other human can. Wouldn't it be logical to assume then that any half baked Jedi would be able to "sense" the lad whenever he took the reins of one of those flying engines the same way Luke "channeled" the Force when he attacked the Death Star?

You see, all these arguments, discussions, and rationalizations are silly in and of themselves and the reasoning starts to conflict and fall apart because Midichlorians don't fit in with the story that he began telling 20+ years ago. What he has started here, is the beginning of a bad storyline that will suddenly change into a well told story at Episode IV. Details create the big picture. If you want nothing but broad strokes, go catch a Pauly Shore flick. If the details are wrong, then so is the big picture. Go pull the engine out of your car then try to turn it on. Go yank the food out of your fridge then check later for something to eat. Why have blades of grass on your property when you've convinced yourself that there is a lawn sitting there? That's silly.

My Star Wars Saga glass is 2/3-full...

Originally posted by stillakid Not only do all my previous arguments hold about the ridiculousness and incorrectness of Midichlorians being introduced in the first place, but supposing you are correct about the, how shall we call it now..."the test", it's even dumber than I could have imagined.

I haven't read any of your previous arguments, but I'm sorry you're a Midichlorian hater. Once you get to know them, they're quite helpful and easy to get along with.

Originally posted by stillakid As a story plot device, it's as subtle as a bull in a china shop (overused metaphor intentional). This only adds more proof that GL is no writer. He needs help. (Where were you Kasdan when we needed you?)

While I would agree that George needs help with his dialogue (better yet leave it to someone of Mr. Kasdan's calibur), a "bull in a china shop" is not inappropriate in a PG-rated kid flick. Are you an adult?

Originally posted by stillakid And "where were the AT-ST's"? That argument is just as ridiculous in this context. That's a hardware question through and through and has little to no bearing on story structure whatsoever. The same goes for the double-bladed lightsaber. It's all just hardware.

Yup. That was my point, too. This is a thread about double-bladed lightsabres. But then you asked about Midichlorians, I answered, and you got all huffy on George and stuff! Thread highjacker!

Originally posted by stillakid But, sudden inclusion of what makes the Force tick and/or what makes a person a Jedi, after it had all been explained is ludicrous. I'm not interested in recapping every solid point that has been previously made that discounts the validity of Midichlorians, but suffice it to say that any attempt to rationalize their existence falls apart when you actually review Episodes 4, 5, and 6. Suggesting that all precedent established by those films is null and void just because we've gone back to the beginning is, how did you call it...silly.

I never suggested precedents were null and void. Are you trying to start something here?

Originally posted by stillakid Even though this was titled, Episode number One, it is still the Fourth story to be told in the series which necessatates GL's staying true to the established continuity. He hasn't done that and no argument or rationalization can change that.

I don't see where George has contradicted the Original Trilogy with Episode I. You must be getting Star Wars confused with Star Trek. That continuity, from what my good friend Rick Berman tells me, is all OVER the place!

Originally posted by stillakid A story well told will never contradict itself. If Midichlorians were part of the grand scheme all along, then Old Ben and/or Yoda would have told Luke. Period.

I don't understand why anyone would assume that. Clearly Luke is the "son of Skywalker." I don't think anyone needs to do a Midichlorian count when a paternity test will do.

Originally posted by stillakid I am aghast that anyone who has ever paid attention to the actual story (not those who just get their giggles from the pretty pictures) can just let that slide. Midichlorians aren't irrelevant. They're everything! According to Ep I, they are what make somebody a Jedi. If that was true, what excuse did Luke's masters have for conveniently leaving that out of his training? Is that a "silly" question too?

Yes, that is a silly question. Here's a silly answer: Ben didn't tell Luke everything about being a Jedi because he didn't have time. Between getting off Tatooine, rescuing the Princess (the other "New Hope"), and sacrificing his life for the Skywalker twins, his schedule was too full to be concerned with Midichlorians. But if it'll make you feel any better, you can imagine that Yoda told Luke all about Midichlorians, even though it might be as common knowledge in the Star Wars Universe as blood is to most humans on this planet.

Originally posted by stillakid Look at it this way. Vader didn't "sense" Luke until after he had had just a little bit of training from Old Ben. Hurtling down the trench, Vader now knows that there is a new disturbance in the Force. Keeping that in mind, jump forward/back to young Anakin who has had no training. Qui Gon can not "sense" him, but Anakin supposedly has this super-lotto count of Midichlorians in him that enable him to fly Pod Racers when no other human can. Wouldn't it be logical to assume then that any half baked Jedi would be able to "sense" the lad whenever he took the reins of one of those flying engines the same way Luke "channeled" the Force when he attacked the Death Star?

Vader sensed Luke's Force ability because they are father and son, unlike Anakin and Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by stillakid You see, all these arguments, discussions, and rationalizations are silly in and of themselves and the reasoning starts to conflict and fall apart because Midichlorians don't fit in with the story that he began telling 20+ years ago. What he has started here, is the beginning of a bad storyline that will suddenly change into a well told story at Episode IV. Details create the big picture. If you want nothing but broad strokes, go catch a Pauly Shore flick. If the details are wrong, then so is the big picture. Go pull the engine out of your car then try to turn it on. Go yank the food out of your fridge then check later for something to eat. Why have blades of grass on your property when you've convinced yourself that there is a lawn sitting there? That's silly.

As much as perhaps they should, Pauly Shore films don't spawn hundreds of websites and thousands of anal-retentive fanboys who obsess over each frame of film and every word of dialogue. For some reason, Star Wars did. It still baffles me... and Pauly Shore. Almost as much as those who compare George Lucas' storytelling ability to their lawn.

You want an analogy? I'll give you this one: George is drilling a tunnel. He's got the east side done, now he's gone on to drill the west side. Even though he's only finished 1/3 of that part, people are already predicting the two will never meet. I think George did an okay job on the east side of the tunnel, even if a few years back he added some new tiles here and there.

I'm willing to wait 'til the tunnel's finished before I start worrying about whether the tiles fit together or not. But knowing George, it'll be a work in progress no matter what the audience thinks. Good for George; somewhat frustrating for some of his fans.

Re: My Star Wars Saga glass is 2/3-full...

Originally posted by MisterPL
[B]I haven't read any of your previous arguments, but I'm sorry you're a Midichlorian hater. Once you get to know them, they're quite helpful and easy to get along with.[B]

I'm happy to say that I haven't been alone in this. Many of the incongruities of Ep I came to my attention after posts made by others. Check out the multitude of posts made previous to this on the old forums and some on the new.

[B]While I would agree that George needs help with his dialogue (better yet leave it to someone of Mr. Kasdan's calibur), a "bull in a china shop" is not inappropriate in a PG-rated kid flick. Are you an adult?[B]

You missed the point entirely. I was utilizing an oft overused metaphor in an attempt to parallel GL's own poor writing. I am a kid at heart, but unfortunately I have the bills of an older person.

[B]Yup. That was my point, too. This is a thread about double-bladed lightsabres. But then you asked about Midichlorians, I answered, and you got all huffy on George and stuff! Thread highjacker![B]

Sorry for that. When I see mis-information printed, I can't just let it go. Midi's are wrong no matter what, but your final comment honed in on the Midi question, which I'll say here and later that I supported! (the comment, not the Midi's)

[B]I never suggested precedents were null and void. Are you trying to start something here?[B]

You are suggesting that the precedents are null and void. For Midi's to work with the existing storyline, one would have to ignore so many pre-existing established elements that the original trilogy would look very very different than the one we've all grown to know and love.

And, no, I'm not trying to start something. I am opinionated, especially when I know I'm right , so it tends to come out a bit harsher than I mean it to. It's all because I love Star Wars that I pay close attention to the details that you, for some reason, feel aren't important.

[B]I don't see where George has contradicted the Original Trilogy with Episode I. You must be getting Star Wars confused with Star Trek. That continuity, from what my good friend Rick Berman tells me, is all OVER the place![B]

Check out some of the Midichlorian threads as well as other problem issues on the old boards for some insight. It might change your stance on that. There are so many problems with Episode I that it takes numerous threads to cover them all.

[B]I don't understand why anyone would assume that. Clearly Luke is the "son of Skywalker." I don't think anyone needs to do a Midichlorian count when a paternity test will do. [B]

We didn't know that Luke was Anakin's boy during A New Hope and if the new trilogy is done right, the surprise will be just as fresh in Jedi as it was in 1983.

The point of telling any story is to tell the [I]audience[I] information. You can't just write a script all willy nilly and assume that the audience will figure out that some mysterious off-screen conversation has taken place. Yoda was teaching Luke about being a Jedi. Everything that we heard about the Force in those on-screen lessons was essentially reiteration of everything that Ben managed to spit out before being run-through. If Midi's were so important then it would be expected that we would have heard about them in 1980. Instead, they were either really unimportant enough that GL didn't think we needed to know about them for another 20 years....or he thought it up more recently in an attempt to lay in some clunky plot points.

[B]
Yes, that is a silly question. Here's a silly answer: Ben didn't tell Luke everything about being a Jedi because he didn't have time. Between getting off Tatooine, rescuing the Princess (the other "New Hope"), and sacrificing his life for the Skywalker twins, his schedule was too full to be concerned with Midichlorians. But if it'll make you feel any better, you can imagine that Yoda told Luke all about Midichlorians, even though it might be as common knowledge in the Star Wars Universe as blood is to most humans on this planet. [B]

See previous comment. Yoda didn't tell us, the audience, therefore it might as well have never happened. That's the cold facts of storytelling. Ben had ample opportunity and Yoda had even more. Neither one bothered to utter a word to Luke, and ergo, us. Conclusion: GL dreamed Midi's up sometime in the mid-1990's and didn't bother to think about the ramifications.

[B]
Vader sensed Luke's Force ability because they are father and son, unlike Anakin and Qui-Gon. [B]

That was never a part of the movie or any written literature. Where did you dream that conclusion up? At that point in the story, Vader simply senses that "the Force is strong with this one." We have no reason to suspect that Vader knows that Luke is his son, nor is there any reason to suspect that Vader only feels Luke's presence because he is his son. All we know at the end of A New Hope is that Luke has some rudimentary Force training and that is enough to ripple the Force.

If you want to assume anything, it would be that between ANH and Empire, Vader's secret agents find out who fired the fatal shot and reported the name back to the Emperor and Vader. That's why we enter Empire with that chase in progress.

[B]
As much as perhaps they should, Pauly Shore films don't spawn hundreds of websites and thousands of anal-retentive fanboys who obsess over each frame of film and every word of dialogue. For some reason, Star Wars did. It still baffles me... and Pauly Shore. Almost as much as those who compare George Lucas' storytelling ability to their lawn.[B]

I was keeping this civil in the spirit of discussion. You managed to cross the line.

You've decided that the "minor details" like Midichlorians aren't important enough to talk about, which I find strange. My original foray into the discussion was in support of one of your statements which read: "It goes to show you, as with all of the Star Wars films, the technology isn't the thing, it's the human quality that helps us overcome the odds." That is exactly the main argument against Midichlorians that many many people hold, not just "anal-retentive" fans (I'll get to that in a minute). The original trilogy was designed and supported by many philosophers as a classic story in which man's inner strength could defeat greater evil. Introducing Midichlorian's into the mix turns Luke from a simple farmboy (like you or me) into a super-human with qualities none of us can ever have. (there are posts upon posts about this one point)

The lawn comment and the anal retentive crap: clearly you're not reading and paying attention to what is being said. Metaphors and subleties are way over your head which probably explains why a simple-minded concept like Midichlorians has so much appeal to you. You seem to like paying attention to the broad strokes and Midichlorians are about as broad of a concept in the Star Wars lore as you can get.

This isn't obsessing over some minute frame of film. Keep the discussion to the point. If you don't have a logical counterpoint to a stated position then please refrain from unnecessary and divergent, well... name calling. It only insults the target and degrades your own opinions as being off-the-cuff reducing your own credibility.

[B]You want an analogy? I'll give you this one: George is drilling a tunnel. He's got the east side done, now he's gone on to drill the west side. Even though he's only finished 1/3 of that part, people are already predicting the two will never meet. I think George did an okay job on the east side of the tunnel, even if a few years back he added some new tiles here and there.[B]

He's added tiles which throw the direction of the West side off so that they won't meet without some serious digging later on. Call it rationalization.

[B]I'm willing to wait 'til the tunnel's finished before I start worrying about whether the tiles fit together or not. But knowing George, it'll be a work in progress no matter what the audience thinks. Good for George; somewhat frustrating for some of his fans. [B]

After all is said and done, I write here because I enjoy hearing other points of view. I've got my ideas, of course, and others have theirs. That's what makes this whole thing great. If the Midi's are some kind of "testing" plot device, then so be it. It's his story to tell, not mine or anyone else's. However, it is fair to pick this stuff apart if something doesn't seem right. Just "letting it go" because everything Star Wars is sacred and because GL is the author isn't right either. No one wants to negatively critique this story, but Episode I went so awry that it can't be helped. Look, I wanted to love the thing. Really! Why? Because the original trilogy was so good. We went into Episode I expecting a lot. It didn't live up to it's predecessors, which is why we're here today throwing jabs back and forth. Maybe he'll write himself out of this corner. We know that he's read some of this discussion in the past so maybe we've influenced him to get the story back on track. One good sign is that he brought another writer in this time to help him like he did in the old days. I don't want to hate these movies. They've always been better than anything else out there and it would be nice for it to stay that way. GL let a lot of people down with Ep I. Here's to hoping for Episode II.

Actually, I'm just as adamant about how bad an idea it was to make Luke and Leia brother and sister. But no one listens to me prattle on about that one, so I leave it alone. So I guess I tolerate GL's storyline mistakes because I'm used to them. I originally never gave a second thought to midichlorians, stillakid, however your consistent and unwaivering hatred of them has caused me to see that they very well could be a storytelling flaw after all. But like I said I'm used to those since that highly disappointing and contrived 'revelation' from ROTJ.

Last edited by bigbarada; 10-14-2001 at 08:37 PM.

"To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence… When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S. Lewis

No, thank YOU!

Sorry, stillakid. I wasn't referring to you personally, I was talking about the other 50,000+ geeks with nothing better to do on a school night. We're not like that. We have WORK in the morning.

Seriously, if we weren't among those obsessive fanboys, we wouldn't be having this "lively discussion." I'm still having fun.

Double-bladed lightsabres aside (I think we agree they're not much of an issue in Star Wars lore), I'm happy waiting for the rest of the Saga to unfold before getting my panties in a bunch. Midichlorians seem to me to have a specific purpose in this trilogy, not the next. I'm pretty sure George hadn't given it much, if any, thought before 1997. Maybe not. I'm hoping that he can clear things up before the end credits roll on Episode III.

I don't remember Qui-Gon or anyone else saying you needed midichlorians to be a Jedi, or that only Force-wielders had Midichlorians. I thought, as with my blood analogy earlier, that everybody had them. Perhaps one needed a certain number to really show talent, kind of like someone who spends their life drawing to become an okay illustrator versus a Grandma Moses who doesn't start 'til she's "too old to begin the training" but turns out to be some wunderoma.

It's that "the one who will bring balance to the Force" line that's got me scratching my head. So Anakin's gonna help bring about the downfall of the entire Jedi order (except for two, Ben & Yoda), and the Council doesn't want to keep tabs on this kid? Please.

Originally posted by bigbarada Sooooo,......how about them there double-bladed lightsabers?

Actually, I'm just as adamant about how bad an idea it was to make Luke and Leia brother and sister. But no one listens to me prattle on about that one, so I leave it alone. So I guess I tolerate GL's storyline mistakes because I'm used to them. I originally never gave a second thought to midichlorians, stillakid, however your consistent and unwaivering hatred of them has caused me to see that they very well could be a storytelling flaw after all. But like I said I'm used to those since that highly disappointing and contrived 'revelation' from ROTJ.

For what it's worth, I'm kind of with you on the brother sister thing. I don't see it as messing up any story continuity as such. It just is, well...incredibly convenient. I think that it was a MAD magazine spoof that addressed it best. It went something like this:

LUKE: Leia is my sister!

BEN: Your insight serves you well, that and Leia is the only other female in the whole story.

A New Hope was really well structured, but by the time Jedi came around and Lucas had to find a way to glue the strands together, his tendencies toward finding the easy way out began to shine through. In hindsight, it shouldn't have been a surprise to see something like the Midichlorians pop up out of nowhere, but it's still disappointing nonetheless.