I am glad I have you as our spokesperson for wow and what the player base wants.

They want people to play the game and stay subbed, the don't want people to sub for 1 month see content unsub come back for next patch and run the same 5 mans over and over again and get better loot than the people that stayed subbed for 5 months, not sure why that is hard to understand.

Why would someone that has just returned have better gear than someone who has stayed subbed for five months? The content and therefore gear would be available to both players, arguably the player who continued to sub would have a head start as they would be accumulating points that can be spent on gear whilst the returning player had been unsubbed.

I fail to see how being expected to run the same raids that have been available for almost months is somehow better than being able to run new content.

Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas

How is 486 a "lot of gear to grind" for anyone who has steped foot outside of lfr?

So those who have not stepped outside of LFR should be expected to grind gear outside of LFR in order to run the new LFR?

How is 486 a "lot of gear to grind" for anyone who has steped foot outside of lfr?

I meant the casuals ( Not in a bad way ) Like the people who don't even REMOTELY do normals nothing of that in other words most of the majority. It's not even a problem anymore as the update right there.

There's many people out there who don't give a f about normals nor hardmodes or anything for that matter; Just experience the content and be done oh and free gear WOOOHOO and there's a lot of people like that that even includes me who only BG's now.

Understand?

Like you want to force the majority to do normals of course not that's bad business and have an outright QQ fest on their forums not at it already is and hey it did work It's back at 480

Not sure what level of English skills you possess but I can clarify further for you.

"Resorted to" means that I had to fall back on insults as I could no longer pursue my argument, this is incorrect.
"Utilized" means I used them as well as my argument to drive home a point.

There is a difference between these two. Let me know if you need further instruction.

And what point were you driving home, other than the fact that you held a different opinion than me?

My opinion is that I felt that for the people LFR was designed for (Casuals to see content without needing to go through the accelerated gearing process expected of dedicated raiders at the expac's release) it was perhaps a bit too high for when 5.0 released, in particular the 470 for HoF/ToES.

You simply had a differing opinion based on your own anecdotal experience that it was, in fact, easy to reach because you rabidly farmed heroics, bought crafted epics, whatever you could do to raise your iLvL as quickly as possible and basically put forth the same effort one would expect to go into NORMAL/ mode.

So yes, if you approached LFR like you were gearing up for normals, then reaching the iLvL requirement would seem easy. My opinion is that it shouldn't require the same amount of effort, because LFR isn't the same as normal. It's easier in every respect and the iLvL loot it drops is much lower as a result.

At this point, we could happily agree to disagree. They are both opinions, and valid in their own right as much as opinions can be.

But you felt your opinion was more valid because it was yours, so took to adding in brow beating and derogatory insinuations that I don't understand English because my opinion was different, all to prove the point that your opinion was different?

In other words, you were being a dick for the sake of being a dick, which wasn't really necessary. It's just a discussion.

I could understand where some people would be pissed. If you got unlucky with drops (Hell I'm still running around with 463 blue weapons) but the item upgrade system is complete garbage for anyone that only runs LFR. If your at that level valor point items are BIS for you so wasting points on updating items is a stupid use of limited resources. Not to mention capping valor is a pain in the ass as is, I still don't think I managed to do it once yet.

However I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that all the valor point items on all the reputation vendors will be made available for justice points and that will pretty much solve all the issues.

Well even if they make valor items available for justice it may still take a few weeks to gear up if they don't reduce the rep requirement on some of those items. 480 might still end up gating players who just reached 90 regardless of how much time they spend grinding gear.

I am very interested to see how "attractive" they keep the 5.0 LFR, how much Valor will the give etc.

I'm pretty sure LFR MSV is going to see a substantial drop in activity, since PvP honor gear will be the same ilvl. Maybe the sigils for the Wrathion quest will pull some folks in.

HoF and ToES may see more runs, for trinkets and sha-touched weapons.

The tier after that, T11 content will be almost totally dead, except for VP farming. But that's probably ok, since that will probably be the final tier.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
1955 At the first Atoms for Peace meeting in Geneva, Homi Babba predicts that fusion will be in commercial use within two decades.

IMO I 100% agree with you, there should be clear progression from one LFR to the next, farm LFR got to next LFR I have no issue with that at all.

And with the iLvl for next LFR being 480 (now) there is no problem with that as not only can you get 483 gear you can also upgrade it.

What they are trying to do is bring back some form of progression while enabling people to catch up.

But what they (and something I fell very strongly about) want to avoid is the second a new patch is released all previous content is obsolete which is exactly what happened in cata.

I run the 4.1 (ZA/ZG) and 4.3 (HoT) 5 mans till I almost vomited.

I want as much content to be relevant for as long as possible.

I want my content set to grow when new patches get released not shrink which is what happened in Cata.

I am very interested to see how "attractive" they keep the 5.0 LFR, how much Valor will the give etc.

I am pretty sure I will keep doing them if the give a nice amount of Valor (not every week but I am not running them every week now) as its good Valor and for me personally good enchanting mats.

In the end when I go to earn my Valor outside of raiding I want a massive set of content to choose from not just 2 (or 3) 5 mans.

Hope that makes some sense!

When the new content is released the old becomes obsolete because people have already consumed it, if the only thing keeping the content relevant is gear then that content has surpassed its shelf life. Forcing people to continue to run the first raid tier in order to experience the second or third tier has nothing to do with keeping it relevant it is about keeping development costs to a minimum. I am already at the point that would rather have something else to do than run MSV again, I do not want to have to run it in three or four month's time and I most certainly do not want to have to continue running it on alts in a year's time when we are in the inevitable lull in content between the final tier and new expansion.

There would be no need to put any new dungeons on a separate queue as they did in Cata, having a random queue of two or three dungeons is a terrible idea as people have the ability to queue for them again and again thus it is possible to fully gear a character within a day and it only serves to accelerate the rate at which players become bored. If they added new dungeons to the existing pool, as they did in WOTLK, players would be able to run the dungeons once a day then would have to take their chances on one of the new HCs popping from a large random pool.

When a new patch is released they do not delete the old raids so how does the amount of content shrink? There is nothing to stop you from running the old content whenever you want.

Bribing players to run old content with additional valour, gear drops, etc is no excuse for not developing new content and only shows that content has become stale. It is a shame that so many players (and I include myself in this) will accept content that is past its sell by date simply because we are after some gear.

You say that you want a massive set of content outside raiding yet you are supporting them releasing nothing but a few more dailies.

When the new content is released the old becomes obsolete because people have already consumed it, if the only thing keeping the content relevant is gear then that content has surpassed its shelf life. Forcing people to continue to run the first raid tier in order to experience the second or third tier has nothing to do with keeping it relevant it is about keeping development costs to a minimum. I am already at the point that would rather have something else to do than run MSV again, I do not want to have to run it in three or four month's time and I most certainly do not want to have to continue running it on alts in a year's time when we are in the inevitable lull in content between the final tier and new expansion.

There would be no need to put any new dungeons on a separate queue as they did in Cata, having a random queue of two or three dungeons is a terrible idea as people have the ability to queue for them again and again thus it is possible to fully gear a character within a day and it only serves to accelerate the rate at which players become bored. If they added new dungeons to the existing pool, as they did in WOTLK, players would be able to run the dungeons once a day then would have to take their chances on one of the new HCs popping from a large random pool.

When a new patch is released they do not delete the old raids so how does the amount of content shrink? There is nothing to stop you from running the old content whenever you want.

Bribing players to run old content with additional valour, gear drops, etc is no excuse for not developing new content and only shows that content has become stale. It is a shame that so many players (and I include myself in this) will accept content that is past its sell by date simply because we are after some gear.

You say that you want a massive set of content outside raiding yet you are supporting them releasing nothing but a few more dailies.

How am I supporting them realising nothing?

When did I say that?

They could release 5 more 5 mans and I would be very happy.

I would be very very very unhappy if they released 5 mans and made them so attractive that is all the player base did, so if they release new 5 mans it can't rain raid quality epics, rain valor and rain rep and be easier than the 5 mans before it.

Did you ever try to run the old content in Cata? It was a complete and total nightmare because everyone that could just did the new content. Every patch in Cata expired the existing content, this was not like this in any expansion before Cata all I want is for them to avoid the mistakes they did in Cata.

As you say in WotLK people still did the old content, why was this? There was even separate queues for the ICC 5 mans but most people selected random.

Now there are many factors in this, the original 5 mans in Cata where harder and I am hoping they will not make this mistake again.

The trick is making the old content "attractive" enough so people run it but your not "bribing" people as you put it.

It is a very fine balance and one that I personally think in Cata they got very very wrong.

I would be very very very unhappy if they released 5 mans and made them so attractive that is all the player base did, so if they release new 5 mans it can't rain raid quality epics, rain valor and rain rep and be easier than the 5 mans before it.

Did you ever try to run the old content in Cata? It was a complete and total nightmare because everyone that could just did the new content. Every patch in Cata expired the existing content, this was not like this in any expansion before Cata all I want is for them to avoid the mistakes they did in Cata.

As you say in WotLK people still did the old content, why was this? There was even separate queues for the ICC 5 mans but most people selected random.

Now there are many factors in this, the original 5 mans in Cata where harder and I am hoping they will not make this mistake again.

The trick is making the old content "attractive" enough so people run it but your not "bribing" people as you put it.

It is a very fine balance and one that I personally think in Cata they got very very wrong.

Fair enough, I thought that your post seemed to imply that you were against them to releasing new dungeons in order to keep the raids relevant.

It has always, not just in Cata, been a total nightmare to get people to run old content because it is old. I agree that it is a unfortunate for those that joined late and missed it but LFR goes someway to address that problem, people will no longer need to beg guild mates to run it with them. Prior to the introduction of the dungeon finder it was very difficult to find people to run anything outside of a guild run, although its introduction breathed new life into HCs previous raid tiers were just as unused as they are now.

You were able to queue separately for the ICC dungeons, as with every other dungeon, but they did not have their own random queue and were added to the random pool once you had completed them once. People selected random dungeons over the ICC ones because although the gear they dropped was good for a fresh alt it was not only quicker to gear through badges, the gear available was better. The random daily was also the only way to acquire Frost badges outside of ICC, VOA and the weekly raid.

I think that many WOW players have lost sight of the fact that the reward for completing any content in game should be the content itself and any gear, etc should be an added bonus. If the content needs to be made more attractive in form of added gear, points, etc then it is no longer good enough, this does not mean that it is bad content simply that it has out lived its usefulness. In order for content to be repeated time and time again it needs to be very interesting, but even the most interesting content is going to lose its shine after a while or it needs to be short enough that it can be completed without becoming an annoyance, this is where WOTLK excelled, as well as having a large pool available ensuring that there was some sort of variety, the HCs were short enough not to become a major chore.

This is where I feel that by trying to keep the current tier of raids alive is going to run into problems, they will have been available for so long that many will have lost interest in them and they take too long to complete. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that raids should be shorter, just that content that takes a long time to complete does not lend itself to being repeated.

I meant the casuals ( Not in a bad way ) Like the people who don't even REMOTELY do normals nothing of that in other words most of the majority. It's not even a problem anymore as the update right there.

There's many people out there who don't give a f about normals nor hardmodes or anything for that matter; Just experience the content and be done oh and free gear WOOOHOO and there's a lot of people like that that even includes me who only BG's now.

Understand?

Like you want to force the majority to do normals of course not that's bad business and have an outright QQ fest on their forums not at it already is and hey it did work It's back at 480

At 480 now. I am not in the least surprised. This is a much more realistic level requirement for the new LFR content and is what I predicted it would be before it went live.