your drunken and shapeless ad hominem strawmen aside, you do continue to make careless, colorless and irrelevant generalizations, this is incredible nonsense.

And your constant habit of dismissing absolutely everything that you personally don't agree with as complete nonsense is getting a bit annoying, if you ask me. No offense meant, that's just the way I see it.

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nimrod

of course John wasn't saint, and everybody here knows that but when somebody writes something like when in truth, he was a horrible human being and manipulator that is something offensive for a lot of people here.

yeah I think your right Lennon93, I got a bit offended yesterday at all the anti John stuff so I apologize for my rant earlier

Whats hard to understand? Besides the delusional 7 of 13 saying he was an angel and still defending him saying he did nothing wrong in his lifetime, how many people worldwide or even here think he was a saint because he wrote a song about peace and love and promoted himself as such? If we are just talking about John Lennon as a musician, he's an incredible talent. I just dont feel he was a good person. I think people are getting the two mixed up. Most people ignore what kind of person he was because he was a great songwriter and musician. Thats all.

I love Johns Beatle music and his talent, but I wouldnt want him dating my daughter.

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I dont push anything aside.... I dont care if he had an affair, I dont care if he got drunk etc etc and

Thats cool. I'm just standing my point that he was no angel.

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why do you choose to believe that he had an affair with Brian ?

Well, it was almost a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But it was a pretty intense relationship. - John Lennon.

I guess your right. I suppose it wasnt an affair, but good lord, thats enough to make me sick anyways.

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why do you believe somebody like Albert Goldman over Paul George & ringo,

Not sure that I do since i've never read his book.

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and even if he did I dont care, Im not the oracle of all thats moral, I believe in live & let live, all I know is he was originally the leader of a band I absolutely loved and still love 40 years on, I will be forever and eternally grateful to John & Paul for the brilliant songs they wrote which have been the soundtrack to my early life - and millions of others, I feel really blessed that I grew up listening to them..

Thats cool and i'm glad your like that. I'm probably a worse person than most and have no right to judge anybody else. Just saying theres two sides to the story. Do I like John Lennon,,,yes. I love his music and his sense of humour, but he did some things in life that I dont agree with and when he was said to be an angel, I responded.

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Ive no idea why posters come on here talking about what a horrible lousy prick of a human being John was because Fred Seaman said so or Elliot Mintz or Goldman or whoever, Ive no idea what they hope to achieve,

Should everybody say and look at just the positive things? Thats kind of one sided dont you think?

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is it supposed to make me no longer a fan of Johns ?, cos if thats your agenda then forget it, Its not gonna happen, I really couldnt give a flying feck whether he baked bread or not......if there is a different reason then please explain. I love the guy and his great songs have given me so much pleasure and I hope they play A Day In The Life at my funeral.

I dont think anybodys trying to convince you to change how you feel. I'm not anyways. I'm just trying to say he wasnt the angel he is always portrayed as being.

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Thats my last words on that and I hope people will now please stop treating the guy like he was a mass murderer

of course John wasn't saint, and everybody here knows that but when somebody writes something like when in truth, he was a horrible human being and manipulator that is something offensive for a lot of people here. I don't understand you tkitna. I guess you were brainwashed by some stupid book or something.

Calling the guy an angel is offensive to me. Speaking of being brainwashed by books or something, how did you get to know John so well to form your opinion?

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Just like i said, i think he was a great guy.

Well of course you do. Most people do. Maybe he was. Do any of us really know for sure?

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He made some mistakes but we all do. But reading your posts tkitna i cant but not to see some deep hatred for him. Seems like you are just waiting for something to hear and drop it here with words i don't know but i believe it true. Drinking or taking drugs doesn't make somebody horrible person - those problems were John's personal demons not ours.

I dont hate him. I never knew him personally. He did alot of good things for people and meant a lot to a bunch of people and thats awesome. Trust me when I say that I fully realize the positive things the guy has going for him, BUT he wasnt perfect and thats what i'm pointing out. Once again, he did things in his life that I dont agree with, but so did the other three. Yjey're not exempt from my opinion either.

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I love after all that post full of hatred (horrible person, junkie, wife beater, jerk, homosexual, got Stu killed,... ) how you mentioned the most important thing John was singing about giving peace a chance. And that is a fact. You may think whatever you want but John sang and fought for peace. And nobody can't take that from him.

He sang about a lot of things. Some I dont agree with. I dont agree with Imagine or his song God. Maybe I miss the message, but I dont like them. Thats a fact.

your extremely dull and haphazardous moralizations knows no bounds. and are hardly reflective of the truth.

Then tell me the truth. I need to hear it from you how the things I said about him arent true. I need you to tell me that he didnt cheat on his wife, take drugs, and so forth. Please tell me.

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you don't really know, you certainly weren't there, so your incongruent, sloppy and vapid opinions merit little concern. and if you would be so kind, stop playing the he-said-she-said game, it is IMHO counterproductive.

Nobody is as lost as you on this forum and I mean that in the kindest way (sorry mods).

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your drunken and shapeless ad hominem strawmen aside, you do continue to make careless, colorless and irrelevant generalizations, this is incredible nonsense.

I don't think that tkitna has any problems with John as a person, but with the fact that people see him as a "god" rather than a succesful musician. Of course he wasn't perfect but that's not the point of this debate. I think he made himself pretty clear in his previous posts.

nimrod

Should everybody say and look at just the positive things? Thats kind of one sided dont you think?

As a human being Ive always regarded John as damaged goods, through no fault of his own, I cant imagine being asked to choose between your parents as a kid, in your small immature mind it would mean never seeing one of them again.....massive massive psychological damage. I dont think any of us should underestimate the effect it could have.John was no angel, John could be cruel, imo a result of the above.

And your constant habit of dismissing absolutely everything that you personally don't agree with as complete nonsense is getting a bit annoying, if you ask me. No offense meant, that's just the way I see it.

remote offtopic blather = the fail.

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Besides the delusional 7 of 13 saying he was an angel and still defending him saying he did nothing wrong in his lifetime

ZOMG! the delusional con artist is you tkitna. what you have stated is arbitrary, irrelevant and total nonsense. you take my simple statements out of context, i never said john lennon ever did anything right nor did i say he did anything wrong, stop making things up. i am merely pointing out the hypocritical nature of your moral sermonizing here, the doublestandards you seek to employ, the out and out biases of your ridiculous assortment of paperthin assertions, cleverly disguised as hating upon john lennon. *sigh*

As a human being Ive always regarded John as damaged goods, through no fault of his own, I cant imagine being asked to choose between your parents as a kid, in your small immature mind it would mean never seeing one of them again.....massive massive psychological damage. I dont think any of us should underestimate the effect it could have.John was no angel, John could be cruel, imo a result of the above.

I agree. It's impossible to overstate the effect that maternal rejection has on a child. Add to it the horrible scene between the parents and Mimi then losing the mum he never really had and its no wonder he had the anger issues. That's really where his bad behavior came from; anger. He also had such a gifted mind and kids like that who are not challenged mentally often develop real emotional issues. There was a good article on this topic a few months ago in Rolling Stone. Anyway, these are not excuses for his behavior, merely facts that serve as an explanation. It's just too bad that he never got help for these issues as a young person.

Calling the guy an angel is offensive to me. Speaking of being brainwashed by books or something, how did you get to know John so well to form your opinion?

I don't know John well - only though his songs, videos, interviews, some well known facts about his life etc. And i can say that he was a good guy. And my opinion is not extreme ( saint / terrible ) like yours - so i would like to see your answer to this question. Did you know John really well to wrote stuff like you did. I know John wasn't saint but when i see/hear somebody write/say that i will not say to him that he was horrible person, jerk, wife beater, junkie etc.

As a human being Ive always regarded John as damaged goods, through no fault of his own, I cant imagine being asked to choose between your parents as a kid, in your small immature mind it would mean never seeing one of them again.....massive massive psychological damage. I dont think any of us should underestimate the effect it could have.John was no angel, John could be cruel, imo a result of the above.

Yeah, thats a good point. He probably did well to keep it all together as often as he did. I couldnt imagine making the same decision.

ZOMG! the delusional con artist is you tkitna. what you have stated is arbitrary, irrelevant and total nonsense. you take my simple statements out of context, i never said john lennon ever did anything right nor did i say he did anything wrong, stop making things up. i am merely pointing out the hypocritical nature of your moral sermonizing here, the doublestandards you seek to employ, the out and out biases of your ridiculous assortment of paperthin assertions, cleverly disguised as hating upon john lennon. *sigh*

Once again, sidestepping my wish for you to tell me the things I said about John werent true. I know you cant so its fun watching you duck the truth. I mentioned a few negative things about John and you replied with a statement of those things being nonsense and you called him an angel. I ask you again, come on here for all to see and tell me the things I said werent the truth. You cant.

I don't know John well - only though his songs, videos, interviews, some well known facts about his life etc.

Well isnt this the pot calling the kettle black. You blame me for basing my opinions on books and such and we come to find out that your doing the same to refute my claims. Hmmmm

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And i can say that he was a good guy.

Yeah, its convenient to only look at the positive things. Most people are like that.

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And my opinion is not extreme ( saint / terrible ) like yours -

So why bother to post your opinion at all?

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so i would like to see your answer to this question. Did you know John really well to wrote stuff like you did. I know John wasn't saint but when i see/hear somebody write/say that i will not say to him that he was horrible person, jerk, wife beater, junkie etc.

I didnt know him at all. Did you know him to come to your conclusion that he was a good guy?

The funny thing is that Nada brought up Tony Bramwell who actually did know John, and he said that John wasnt a good fellow, but we're all going to ignore that arent we. Typical.

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I don't know. It's a personal thing - do you see someone as a good person until proven bad, or otherwise.

When the actual person admits to his wrong doings, its pretty hard not to believe it.

Once again, sidestepping my wish for you to tell me the things I said about John werent true. I know you cant so its fun watching you duck the truth. I mentioned a few negative things about John and you replied with a statement of those things being nonsense and you called him an angel. I ask you again, come on here for all to see and tell me the things I said werent the truth. You cant.

once again tkitna, it is in fact you that is routinely making the most unobjective statements here, and of course your trademark boatload of obscene, outrageous and childish assertions. and obviously, it's up to you to prove them. you talking in circles and relying upon secondhand information is bogus, your comical assertions and insanely unrealistic "cornfed" moralizations, the icing on the cake. your pc distortions are no substitute for the truth. totally. fecking. irrelevant.

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I mentioned a few negative things about John and you replied with a statement of those things being nonsense...

you can't be serious. it is nonsense, for many and manifold reasons. first and foremost, you cannot prove a single thing you have said, that much is extremely obvious. you are relying upon kiss and tell, glitz and glam style books that seem to make the convenient error of spotlighting Johns youthful arrogance in a bad light. that is criminal. your irrelevant, spotty and derelict pseudo-conjecture is bogus and only serves to paint John, the beatles, and everything that goes with it in a bad light. and this is going nowhere fast.

you can't be serious. it is nonsense, for many and manifold reasons. first and foremost, you cannot prove a single thing you have said, that much is extremely obvious. you are relying upon kiss and tell, glitz and glam style books that seem to make the convenient error of spotlighting Johns youthful arrogance in a bad light. that is criminal. your irrelevant, spotty and derelict pseudo-conjecture is bogus and only serves to paint John, the beatles, and everything that goes with it in a bad light. and this is going nowhere fast.

See, this is why nobody takes you seriously. You are just absolutely clueless. You claim that I rely on books and other things, but what in the hell do you think everybody relies on? How did you learn anything about John Lennon (i'm beginning to think you havent)? Did you pal around with him when he was in the Beatles? Did you stop off at the Dakota for tea once in awhile? No, but yet you are sure nothing I say about the guy is true although its mentioned in tons of publications, interviews, and peoples accounts that were close to him. He himself has never denied any of it, but yet it cant be true in your eyes. I mean Cynthia has even written a book or two about John that mentions his cheating and how he acted with Julian, but my god, that cant be true even though she lived with the guy. Heck no, she just must be bitter because he left her and thats why she said some of those nasty things. Right? Thats got to be it. John Lennon could never be or act like that. He was a freaking angel.

You are just too stupid to even discuss this with and if that gets me banned for saying it, so be it.

How did you learn anything about John Lennon (i'm beginning to think you havent)? Did you pal around with him when he was in the Beatles? Did you stop off at the Dakota for tea once in awhile?

whole lotta' nothing there tkitna. never said i did, even so your drunken strawmen tell a sad tale. one that indicates that intelligent debate about these issues is next to impossible, that is, without first demonizing john lennon the human being and in the process criticizing john the beatle. minus the improper behavior he displayed towards Cynthia in his youth, i have no reason to believe he was a bad apple. many here have said precisely the same thing. and your lukewarm, mawkish statements and "too little too late" "cornfed" assertions lead nowhere. John was a peace activist and brutally honest to others, something that apparently you refuse to acknowledge.