No matter how Greeks vote Sunday, the EU is looking for ways “to keep them inside” the single currency, though that may require “a completely new” approach to allow the eurozone to coexist with a bankrupt country, Donald Tusk told POLITICO.

Striking a notably conciliatory tone, the European Council president called on Athens and its creditors to stop the mutual “blame game,” work to “rebuild trust” and promptly resume negotiations after the July 5 referendum in Greece.

“The main aim for us is to keep the eurozone united,” he said.

In a rare, 90-minute interview in his Council office Thursday evening, Tusk covered a range of topics including last week’s EU summit dust-up over migration, his agenda for the negotiations on Britain’s future in the EU and his jogging routine in Brussels.

But the Greek crisis weighed most on the man who represents the 28 national governments in Brussels.

Tusk kept the door wide open to another financial rescue of Athens and downplayed the stakes in Sunday’s vote. Contradicting both European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and European Parliament President Martin Schulz, Tusk said that “it’s very clear that the referendum is not … about being in the eurozone or not. No, in fact, nobody’s interested — I hope nobody’s interested — in this kind of choice.”

“If we need some legal treaty changes to save Europe, it’s also possible to discuss,” he said.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’ call for a snap referendum early last Saturday ended months of fruitless negotiations with creditors and took the EU into uncharted terrain.In the dramatic days since that decision, Greece has imposed capital controls and closed its banks, failed to pay an International Monetary Fund loan on time and allowed its second bailout program to expire.

As Tsipras and his ministers pointed the finger at Brussels and Berlin, European leaders early in the week reacted with a mix of pique and frustration — none more so than Juncker, who accused the Greek premier of “betrayal.”

Tusk struck a much different note than Juncker in the interview. The former Polish prime minister repeatedly sought to lower the volume on the rhetoric around Greece, refusing even to use the word “default” to describe the country’s status after it failed to make a €1.6 billion payment Tuesday to the IMF.

He added a prominent voice to calls this week, including from the U.S., for a return to the negotiating table. “For sure, it’s not a black and white story,” he said. “Maybe the biggest mistake, but I’m not talking only about Greece, was this blame game, the political game between creditors and Greece. Nobody here is an angel.”

“In time of crisis, and it’s not about Greece only but all crises, the biggest problem is lack of confidence and trust,” he added. “The first goal is to rebuild trust in Greece.”

A waiting room?

Tusk said the EU will work with Athens regardless of Sunday’s outcome, though “if the Greeks vote Yes, I think it’s a chance to open a new chapter in negotiations, perhaps more promising than before.”

In that case, the EU would have to first see if Tsipras stays on, a new leader takes over or fresh elections are called.

In case of a No, according to Tusk, “the space for negotiation will be smaller, obviously. But I would like to warn, for sure we don’t need any dramatic messages after No voting.” The EU, he said, would have to wait to hear “the new proposal of the Greek government.”

European treaties provide no way for a country to leave or get expelled from the eurozone except in case of its withdrawal from the EU. But Tusk said he believes that if Greece chooses to exit the single currency, a way could be found for it stay in the Union. “If we need some legal treaty changes to save Europe, it’s also possible to discuss,” he said.

But he suggested the far more immediate priority in the days ahead is to find a financial and legal fudge to keep Greece in the eurozone. “Today’s a situation where we have to think about completely new circumstances,” Tusk said.

“Maybe we will have to get used to living with a country as a member of the eurozone in bankruptcy.” He added: “Maybe we have to prepare the whole organization — the eurozone and EU — to live with countries with such a problem as Greece today.”

Time is short: Greece’s banks are running out of money and the Athens government must pay pensions and salaries and a €3.5 billion to the ECB and national central banks on July 20. If Greece resorts to a scrip currency or IOUs to pay its bills and keeps capital controls in for a long time, it would be in effect out of the euro.

A possible solution is to put Greece in a euro “waiting room,” not formally out of the single currency but in a limbo until it can negotiate its way back in one day.

Tusk refused to get drawn out on what this alternative solution might look like. “If you imagine too much, you get self-fulfilling prophesies,” he said, adding that it was above all necessary to “avoid this dramatic scenario: the breakup of the eurozone.” He added that the stakes in Greece go well beyond the debt or future of the euro, and are at heart geopolitical: “Greece and the Balkans are the traditional soft underbelly of Europe,” and the EU needs to move “very, very cautiously.”

‘The King of Europe’

The sudden revival of the euro debt crisis doesn’t play to Tusk’s political strengths. He comes from a country outside the eurozone. Though he formally chairs EU summits and is personally close to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Tusk isn’t a natural leader on the issue. Juncker, who as prime minister of Luxembourg headed the Eurogroup for eight years, has been far more prominent in the euro crisis talks.

Tusk, meanwhile, has sought to carve out his own space in the EU’s external relations. His first speech after taking office as Council president last December focused on the threat to the European order from the conflict in Ukraine — earning him a reputation as Brussels’ leading Russia hawk. EU doves hold that against him, saying his interest in Ukraine verges on obsession and prevents him from asserting himself on other issues.

“Of course I’ve heard that I am too focused on Ukraine,” he said with smile. Late last year, that crisis was “the biggest problem” in Europe, he said Thursday. But now the EU has equally urgent and, in his telling, more complicated problems on the docket: migration, Britain and Greece, all of which he called “his main concerns.”

Tusk is just the second person to hold the Council presidency, a post created by the Lisbon Treaty in 2009 whose precise job description is in the eyes of the holder. His predecessor, former Belgian prime minister Herman Van Rompuy, preferred to work in the shadows, herding the 28 independent-minded cats of the EU into various coalitions.

Tusk is more outspoken than van Rompuy, and says he is aware of another criticism of his term so far: “I too frequently present my own views.”

Thinking of his role, he said: “I know my treaty obligations and rights and prerogatives. I have no illusions. My friends in Poland, they are kidding from time to time that I am ‘the king of Europe.’ Of course that’s a joke.” But he added that he’s ready to fight for his “opinions and beliefs” and is “ready to take risks when it comes to this.”

Conflict with Juncker: ‘Nothing personal’

For example? Tusk cited the other big blowup (after Greece) in Brussels last week. At their summit, EU leaders argued behind closed doors for more than five hours over migration policy. Juncker and Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi were incensed by the group’s unwillingness to support their proposed mandatory quotas for the relocation of asylum-seekers across the EU.

Commission and Italian officials blamed Tusk, who supported keeping in place a voluntary scheme proposed in April. At a press conference held in the early-morning hours last Friday, Juncker lashed out at Tusk over his handling of the meeting, saying “I protest against this working method.”

In the interview, Tusk called the Commission’s proposal “radically different” from what the EU states had agreed to in April. Though he said “‘annoyed’ is a bit too much” to describe his feelings toward Juncker, his co-equal in the EU power structures, Tusk added that “I think we need more respect among institutions,” referring to the Council and the Commission.

“For me, it’s absolutely natural that from time to time we will be in conflict,” he said. “It’s nothing personal.”

“We have to stop this huge wave of illegal immigration,” he said. “Europe can’t be the only place, the only direction for displaced people.”

Tusk and Juncker have worked together since 2007, when both were prime ministers. The men are more comfortable speaking German, having grown up with the language. But they rarely meet one-on-one and for the benefit of their aides now speak together in English, according to Tusk.

The Pole’s weak command of English was a knock against him before he took office last year. He spent four months in between jobs intensively working on his English in Poland. He won’t say how he did it — “This is my secret, I have to patent it” — but the improvement is striking to those who know him. Still from time to time, he searches for his words, which is visibly frustrating for a politician who back home was known for his facility with language.

While Juncker will naturally be the bigger player on the euro crisis in Brussels, Tusk is asserting himself on migration. He said he wants to correct the imbalance in the current EU approach and called for “a new containment policy, a return policy.” He falls on the harder edge of views in the EU on the issue. “We have to stop this huge wave of illegal immigration,” he said. “Europe can’t be the only place, the only direction for displaced people.” Tusk said he would propose a plan that tries to stop migrants from coming to Europe in the first place before a summit of EU and African states in Malta scheduled in the autumn.

Brexit point man

The future of the U.K. in the EU is another tricky issue Tusk has to manage. British Prime Minister David Cameron had hoped to use last week’s summit to launch the negotiations on EU reform ahead of his In/Out referendum on Britain’s membership. The Greece and migration arguments squeezed that discussion off the agenda, but it will return to prominence in the coming months. Tusk presented himself as a point person in Brussels on the so-called Brexit issue.

He has met with Cameron several times to discuss the proposed reforms, and said that he expects Cameron to “be very responsible and cautious because for sure he needs success” in the referendum. But Tusk opposed changing the EU treaty in any way, saying that it would “provoke a much wider and maybe radical discussion about treaty change.”

The migration crisis has “some politicians” questioning the principle of free movement of people in the EU, which he calls “non-negotiable.”

For example, he said, the migration crisis has “some politicians” questioning the principle of free movement of people in the EU, which he calls “non-negotiable.” British Euroskeptics want to stem the inflow of migrants from the EU’s eastern member countries.

As it happens, Tusk was one of the co-authors. But he rolls his eyes at the mention of it. The proposals for closer integration in the study, including the creation of a eurozone finance minister in EU treaties, lack support among member states, he said. The report called for the EU to complete the banking union, an idea Tusk endorses. The more ambitious items on the monetary integration agenda are cited by supporters as necessary to reassure markets about the long-term viability of the eurozone. Tusk disagreed, noting that the markets aren’t panicking over Greece and don’t need reassurances about the euro.

Searching for a football club

At 58, Donald Tusk is fit and tanned. His handshake feels as if he intended to lift a visitor off the ground. The crow’s feet around his eyes are the one hint of his age. He is dressed down in a checkered blue shirt and jeans, and looks relaxed, somewhat incongruously with the times in EU politics.

He said he was “physically … quite well prepared” for the marathon negotiation sessions last week in Brussels. After an injury took him off the soccer field, he’s back to his regular jogging routine: 10 kilometers, three times a week, usually at the park near his home in Brussels’ Ixelles neighborhood.

Back in Poland, he commuted most weekends from Warsaw to his hometown of Sopot, near Gdansk, many weekends and played on a club there. He said he hasn’t played with any football team in town.

“I will return to football,” he said, “although my wife laughs that when you’re 58 years old you don’t think about a return to that sort of sport.”

Asked for his reading of Tsipras, the man who in a few weeks has upended the EU’s economic and political order, Tusk said, “It’s a banal and typical story: As a leader, he promised something to his voters and now he’s delivering this program.” To the Pole in Brussels, the Greek suffers from a common illusion in Europe: “That we can spend more than we have.”

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olympic eagle

Unless the lenders can see their way to writing off some of their debt (in the same manner that lenders do here under our bankruptcy laws) there is no economic justification for Greece to stay in euro. That is just simple economics (spare me the sermons).

Posted on 7/3/15 | 9:25 PM CEST

Brian Bradshaw

It actually is not up to anyone but the Greeks. There is no mechanism for evicting a member country.

Posted on 7/3/15 | 11:05 PM CEST

ExLiberal

In short, Greece breaks the rules, and the EU responds by–changing its rules!
And what’s more, the Greeks will once again be rewarded for their fraud and thievery: “Tusk kept the door wide open to another financial rescue of Athens”

Posted on 7/3/15 | 11:59 PM CEST

Ronnie

The question that needs to be addressed is – how does Europe want to spend its money. Does it want to go on bailing out Greece and have its credit thrown back in its face with a No referendum result, or does it want to advance the infrastructure and provide growth for the European countries who truly pull their weight? Can Europe go on any longer throwing away money into the Greek black hole where there is not enough trust, little effort, resistance to reform, and hardly any belief in European ways? Why is that not clear to the Greeks who MUST find ways to belong and contribute by ceasing to be a drain on Europe, if they stay in the union. Greece has failed to answer this call for decades now since joining and seems to find new innovative ways to obtain more bailouts from Europe. They are taking European resources away from other more worthy projects and this cannot be allowed to go on.

Posted on 7/4/15 | 2:51 AM CEST

Jerzy E Henisz

First congratulations to Matthew Kaminski for an excellent interview. Second the new “king of Europe” or rather second emperor ( after Charlemagne) seems to be up to the job: keep the Europe together regardless of the differences and disagreements. New challenges will come but Tusk seems to be ready to face them and his diplomatic language is something to admire.

Posted on 7/4/15 | 4:08 AM CEST

ejhickey

chawlas

Tusk is a straight shooter and speaks honestly. He also shows he has experience in governing as opposed to Obama and Tsipras who were professional “community organizers” and became the accidental leaders of their respective counties because of dumb and uniformed voters.

Posted on 7/4/15 | 7:36 AM CEST

Knut A

I wise man with good reflections

Posted on 7/4/15 | 9:23 AM CEST

Frank

The problem with Greece is that it is run by socialists.

Posted on 7/4/15 | 9:38 AM CEST

Luk

@Frank, congratulations for the gross overestimation! since 2004 New Democracy (center right) has won all the elections except the 2009 one (and of course the most recent one), and previously the Pasok and ND alternated quite a lot in power.
The problem of Greece hasn’t been left or right, it’s the whole system.

Posted on 7/4/15 | 12:17 PM CEST

jeri rose

We in the US have an angel Bernie Sanders Europeans can contribute to world sanity by sending him some money. #bernie2016

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