New Gemini light? the Duo?

I'm interested in this light if it is a spot that could be used on the helmet. I find I just don't get the throw I'm looking for from my Xera, even with the super-spot optic... I know Gemini is in Las Vegas right now, but any info on availability (or if you need testers for the light ) would be awesome....

Looks pretty sweet. I'm wondering what the options will be for the optics.

I was thinking the same thing he said it has a wide beam but throws, I'm hoping its not too floody , it would be a waste otherwise. I have a olympia on my bars and a 808e on the noggin, hope this has enough punch for the helmet.

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

I was thinking the same thing he said it has a wide beam but throws, I'm hoping its not too floody , it would be a waste otherwise. I have a olympia on my bars and a 808e on the noggin, hope this has enough punch for the helmet.

The Duo looks almost like a Gloworm X2 clone. More than likely it should have a similar beam pattern depending on what optic they chose to go with. I've yet to try my GW on the helmet ( as it is my go to bar lamp ). The thing about lamps that use optics ( vs. reflectors ) is that there is always going to be the issue of center throw intensity vs. total beam spread. As I see it reflectors seem to be able to deliver better center ( spot ) throw. This doesn't mean that optics can't work, it just means you need the right optic and enough emitters to compensate for lack of a true hot spot. Whither the Duo is able to do this is anyone's guess.

Looks like I'm gonna have to test the Gloworm on the helmet just for curiosities sake.

Cat,
It's not just the amount of light produced but also the comfort level of the smaller lighthead. I know there's not much weight difference between the 808e I used to use and the Olympia/Xera that I currently run, but after a couple of hours it makes a big difference. I know your Gloworm is light and I'm betting the new Duo will be too so they should provide the same benefit.
Mole

The Duo looks almost like a Gloworm X2 clone. More than likely it should have a similar beam pattern depending on what optic they chose to go with. I've yet to try my GW on the helmet ( as it is my go to bar lamp ). The thing about lamps that use optics ( vs. reflectors ) is that there is always going to be the issue of center throw intensity vs. total beam spread. As I see it reflectors seem to be able to deliver better center ( spot ) throw. This doesn't mean that optics can't work, it just means you need the right optic and enough emitters to compensate for lack of a true hot spot. Whither the Duo is able to do this is anyone's guess.

Looks like I'm gonna have to test the Gloworm on the helmet just for curiosities sake.

Cat, we just completed the 12hr Day Night Thriller here in NZ. All 5 riders were XC weightweenies (and representative riders ) and were kitted out with on X2 on helmet and bars. They never complained about weight but gave plenty of positive feedback about the light at speed.

More info Action is listing them already need a price for light head only got tons of battery's already?seeing he's asking 259.99 for a complete system I'm thinking around $139.99 for lighthead? seeing Olympias going for $159.99 as lighthead only.Action-LED-Lights — Gemini DUO LED light System

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

More info Action is listing them already need a price for light head only got tons of battery's already?seeing he's asking 259.99 for a complete system I'm thinking around $139.99 for lighthead? seeing Olympias going for $159.99 as lighthead only.Action-LED-Lights — Gemini DUO LED light System

Something caught my attention on the spec in the link. It listed the battery as a four cell 5200mah but with a runtime in high for 3hrs at high mode (1400 lumens). Can this light using the U2 be that efficient?

I prefer the lower profile helmet mount used on the Gloworm over the Gemini. I own the Gloworm and Gemini Xera (both great lights). Looks like the Gemini DUO uses the same helmet mounting as the Xera. Both the Gemini and Gloworm mounts work well and are lightweight on the helmet.

Something caught my attention on the spec in the link. It listed the battery as a four cell 5200mah but with a runtime in high for 3hrs at high mode (1400 lumens). Can this light using the U2 be that efficient?

Good point. If it truly gets 3hrs on high it has to be under-driven. The Gemini batteries are good but not that good.

Posted by Brooks04:

I prefer the lower profile helmet mount used on the Gloworm over the Gemini. I own the Gloworm and Gemini Xera (both great lights). Looks like the Gemini DUO uses the same helmet mounting as the Xera. Both the Gemini and Gloworm mounts work well and are lightweight on the helmet.

Interesting that you mention this. I was fiddling with the Gloworm X2 helmet mount just yesterday. The first thing I noticed about the mount is that once you get it on it is VERY low profile and VERY adjustable. This will be the only lamp that I've used on the helmet that I can "easily adjust" while on the fly. I've yet to ride with it on the helmet but this is the week that I will give it a spin.

FWIW, someone needs to come up with a lower profile helmet mount suitable for the O-ring mounted light systems. Like the photo that Brooks posted shows, the mounts themselves are too tall. I use an old DiNotte 200L mount. It is more of a "half pipe" approach and so is not as tall as typical " full pipe" mounts. The DiNotte also uses cam buckles rather than Velcro making it more easier to work with. Unfortunately it looks like DiNotte doesn't sell these any more. The new version is taller, more like the typical full pipe mount. Regardless, the cam strap system is way better than the Velcro stuff IMO. ( new DiNotte mount below )

Interesting that you mention this. I was fiddling with the Gloworm X2 helmet mount just yesterday. The first thing I noticed about the mount is that once you get it on it is VERY low profile and VERY adjustable. This will be the only lamp that I've used on the helmet that I can "easily adjust" while on the fly. I've yet to ride with it on the helmet but this is the week that I will give it a spin.

Regardless, the cam strap system is way better than the Velcro stuff IMO.

Hey Cat, you'll be pleased to know we've also changed the design of the helmet strap to include a small buckle to allow the velcro to be threaded and then fastened against itself.

More info Action is listing them already need a price for light head only got tons of battery's already?seeing he's asking 259.99 for a complete system I'm thinking around $139.99 for lighthead? seeing Olympias going for $159.99 as lighthead only.Action-LED-Lights — Gemini DUO LED light System

Same boat here. Will be watching for the price of light head only.

Curious how it would compare to my MS856 (872 in different housing). Any guesses?

What I'd really like to know is whether it can be run as a super-spot. I'd really like to see X2 and Duo side-by-side beam shot comparisons similar to the trail pictures up on the lights shootout page. Or even a Duo compared to a Xera, both with spot optics. I'm looking for a spot that is a little brighter and can throw a little farther the Xera.

Something caught my attention on the spec in the link. It listed the battery as a four cell 5200mah but with a runtime in high for 3hrs at high mode (1400 lumens). Can this light using the U2 be that efficient?

[

To acheive this runtime requires the light to be no more effecient than the new 1800 U2 Olympia. Action lists the runtime of the Olympia w/4 cell battery at 140 minutes. If you calculate the percentage difference of the lumen output and apply it to the runtime it works out to 180 minutes, or 3 hrs. In the past Gemini has been very conservative with their claimed light/battery runtimes so this seems reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by slyfink

What I'd really like to know is whether it can be run as a super-spot. I'd really like to see X2 and Duo side-by-side beam shot comparisons similar to the trail pictures up on the lights shootout page. Or even a Duo compared to a Xera, both with spot optics. I'm looking for a spot that is a little brighter and can throw a little farther the Xera.

Gemini? Are you out there? Any answers for us?

My biggest complaint on my Olympia is that there were no optic options. Lets hope that won't be the same on the Duo.
Mole

To acheive this runtime requires the light to be no more effecient than the new 1800 U2 Olympia. Action lists the runtime of the Olympia w/4 cell battery at 140 minutes. If you calculate the percentage difference of the lumen output and apply it to the runtime it works out to 180 minutes, or 3 hrs. In the past Gemini has been very conservative with their claimed light/battery runtimes so this seems reasonable to me.

My biggest complaint on my Olympia is that there were no optic options. Lets hope that won't be the same on the Duo.
Mole

If all things being equal, than yeah it has to be no more efficient than the U2 Olympia based on the proportion lumens and runtime. The major variable here that changes this is that the Olympia is driving three XML while the Duo is driving two LED. It's more efficient and uses less power to drive three LED to achieve 1400 OTF lumens than it is to drive two LED to get the same OTF (unless I am wrong and I hasve been known to make mistakes ). They must have verly little or below average overall loss. I'm thinking good light optics, low loss driver or maybe even PWM in the High setting?

I'm also interested to see what the OTF lumens will be when the body heats up and how much does the OTF drops. Most lights I tested does indeed drops with some way more than others. Guess we will find out when this is out in the market and feedback are reported from users.

I agree that the Olympia major disadvantage was no option with the optics. This Duo might just be the answer for bridging the gap between the Xera and Olympia.

If all things being equal, than yeah it has to be no more efficient than the U2 Olympia based on the proportion lumens and runtime. The major variable here that changes this is that the Olympia is driving three XML while the Duo is driving two LED. It's more efficient and uses less power to drive three LED to achieve 1400 OTF lumens than it is to drive two LED to get the same OTF (unless I am wrong and I hasve been known to make mistakes ). They must have verly little or below average overall loss. I'm thinking good light optics, low loss driver or maybe even PWM in the High setting?

I'm also interested to see what the OTF lumens will be when the body heats up and how much does the OTF drops. Most lights I tested does indeed drops with some way more than others. Guess we will find out when this is out in the market and feedback are reported from users.

I agree that the Olympia major disadvantage was no option with the optics. This Duo might just be the answer for bridging the gap between the Xera and Olympia.

Hopefully the below links help when looking at claimed lumens and runtime.

We encountered the challenge of establishing the sweet spot between Runtime/Temperature/OTF lumen when we brought the X2 to market. We utilised these tools when undergoing the design stages.

Cree Tool This tool is simply awesome. You basically select the correct variables for the emmitter you intened on using. Including junction temp, required lumens and optical/electronic efficiency. It then pumps out how many LEDs and at what current you need to acheive the deisred outcome. It also provides watts (heat) produced. In our experience this tool is very close to actual testing.

LED runtime tool This one basically gives runtime based on all common factors. Once again, the theoretical needs to be taken with the actual, but once again we have been very close in testing.

Cree XML Data Sheet This obviously helps with the variables when entering data into the above sheets.

Hey Cat, you'll be pleased to know we've also changed the design of the helmet strap to include a small buckle to allow the velcro to be threaded and then fastened against itself.

Bruce

HA!...Nice. I beat you to the punch though as I already had a spare ( buckled Velcro strap ) laying around. Having a buckle to help tighten it down is really needed. The only problem is some of these straps ( with plastic buckles ) are poorly made. Tighten them too tight and either the strap or the buckle will break. One of the ( plastic ) buckles on one of my battery bags broke as well. The Chinese don't do plastic very well.

Later this week I plan on skipping over to REI to see what they have laying around. They should have an array of sizes to chose from.

[QUOTE=colleen c;9719587]
Guess we will find out when this is out in the market and feedback are reported from users.

Taking information off one of your old posts, you got 245 minutes runtime out of a 6 cell on your Olympia (16% beyond Gemini's claim for the T-6 Olympia). Today I ran a 4 cell test and got 143 minutes (19% above Gemini's claim for the T-6 Olympia) just to back-up my "Gemini conservative runtime claim". I know there are lots of variables comparing one light to another and I picked the Olympia because I figured it would be the most consistant in regards to optic/driver quality and manufacturer cliams. Yes, we're all just guessing at this and I based my optimistic opinion on Gemini's reputation and past performance quality.
Mole

I just ordered the Gemini XERA for my lid and want to compliment it with a nice light for my bar. I had my mind made up with the XML3 but then the Gemini DUO is now available. Can anyone recommend which one would be better for me??

It will be for XC riding....some of the riding in the area is technical rooty hilly trails

I just ordered the Gemini XERA for my lid and want to compliment it with a nice light for my bar. I had my mind made up with the XML3 but then the Gemini DUO is now available. Can anyone recommend which one would be better for me??

It will be for XC riding....some of the riding in the area is technical rooty hilly trails

You cannot go wrong with a Olympia... For the last few years I have been searching for the perfect bar IE flood light and it meets every criteria Blinding goodness + plenty of throw... I have tried 2 xmls on the bars in various configurations and to completely satisfy you need 3 to meet the need. I'm hoping the Duo will make a good helmet light cuz for the bars there is just much more power out there...

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

I just tried to order a duo lighthead only and it says sold old WTF??? come on Action I kind of doubt you are already sold out.

I'm not quite sure why the website is giving that message. I'll look into it tomorrow. The real situation is that they have not yet arrived. Gemini has not yet promised me a ship date. I'll keep you informed.

I'm not quite sure why the website is giving that message. I'll look into it tomorrow. The real situation is that they have not yet arrived. Gemini has not yet promised me a ship date. I'll keep you informed.

Great Thanks I'm definitely planning a on getting one of these so let us know when they will be available.

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

I'm not quite sure why the website is giving that message. I'll look into it tomorrow. The real situation is that they have not yet arrived. Gemini has not yet promised me a ship date. I'll keep you informed.

We have a few optics options at the moment, but none that really blows our mind. We will be sticking with the current optic we are using as these produce the best beams. Take a look at our beam shot page.

The Duo looks like I nice lamp. From what I could tell from the beam shot the output/beam pattern looks very much like the Gloworm X2.. no surprise there I suppose.
To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they were both using the same optic. Too bad there isn't a good sub-10° optic. ( or maybe there is? ) Something like that might create more forward throw and a more intense hot spot for helmet use.

Rakuman, Keep the faith guy. We'll find the perfect helmet light one day. For the time being I still think you're going to have a hard time finding something that can compliment your Olympia. With something as bright as the Olympia you don't need any more flood, you need super throw.

In keeping with that thought, someone might try designing a helmet lamp around the new XPE-2's. A three or four emitter set-up ( with the right sized reflector ) could possible yield a lamp small enough for the helmet yet still throw an intense spot.. Kaidoman has a 3-up XPG R5 ( below ) that might be interesting if it is a thrower. If it was maybe convert it to XPE-2 and make it a super thrower...ideas, ideas...

We have a few optics options at the moment, but none that really blows our mind. We will be sticking with the current optic we are using as these produce the best beams. Take a look at our beam shot page.

I'm a little confused. In the "whats in the box" section of your Due web page it says "standard plus narrow optic". I didn't seen any beam shots so I guess it is a typo but I'm hopeing it's not.
Mole

Yukon winter

Great thread and good solid info as i just ordered my Duo with 4 cell from Gemini as a helmet lite for winter riding on my Salsa BG. I will start with this and see what I might add down the road as I was close to ordering something like their Olympia. Would love to hear more from the folks at Gemini as to what to watch for in the very near future with respect to inter changing lenses? I was led to believe that there were 2 different ones coming with my Duo?

Gemini I am on the fence right now Ive spent some time looking at your Beamshots, you used to have comparisan shot of a 808E and an Xera That link is dead now, If I remember right the Xera was brighter than and almost had as much punch as the 808e. That is the light I compare all other helmet lights to at the moment. Could you re post that comparison with the 808E again? it would go a long ways for me to decide if this light is Helmet suitable.

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

Rakuman,
I can tell you this much. The XERA with the spot optic has more throw than the MJ-808E. The shots you saw previously were with the stock optic. Not to mention it is only half the size and weight of the MJ-808E.
The new DUO weights only slightly more (63g vs 52g) and should have about the same throw as the XERA but more spread with it's 15 degree optics.
Remember too that the driver circuit in all Gemini light is very efficient, giving you more run-time for a given amount of battery. The benefit of using 2 XML's lightly driven really shows up if you look at the stated run times of the XERA at 850 lumens vs the DUO turned down to 60% (840 lumens). It's 540 minutes vs 240 minutes. (I can't wait to test this myself)

Rakuman,
I can tell you this much. The XERA with the spot optic has more throw than the MJ-808E. The shots you saw previously were with the stock optic.

That's exactly why I want to see that comparison shot the throw on the stock Xera at 16 degrees should be real close to what the Duo can produce at 15 degrees but brighter. and if the 16 degree Xera has more punch than the 808E the duo would blow the 808E away, please post that 808 picture if you have it.
As Cat-man-do earlier commented we here are looking for a perfect helmet light, Personally I think the Olympia has the bars covered hands down and Ive tried a lot of lights

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

For those bar mounting the Olympia how do you think the Duo will compliment this? I am wondering how many of you have experience with snow bounce with bar and head mounted lights tested? Are 2 lights overkill?
Also any thoughts on actual battery life? I just spoke to a fellow here in Whitehorse using a Magicshine and his battery crapped out after less then 1 year use? How are the Gemini batteries holding up? thx

That's exactly why I want to see that comparison shot the throw on the stock Xera at 16 degrees should be real close to what the Duo can produce at 15 degrees but brighter. and if the 16 degree Xera has more punch than the 808E the duo would blow the 808E away, please post that 808 picture if you have it.
As Cat-man-do earlier commented we here are looking for a perfect helmet light, Personally I think the Olympia has the bars covered hands down and Ive tried a lot of lights

Rakuman, I do have my beamshot of the Xera with the standard 16 degree optic(so call standard back then), reflector and the 14 degree optic that was so call the prototype back when it first came out. The beamshot is in the same park that I use for all my beamshot. I think I also have the MS 808E XML taken at the same time when I did the test for the 14 degree (prototype) optic that was sent to me for testing. If interested, I can located that folder and link some photo if you desired.

[QUOTE=Action LED Lights; The benefit of using 2 XML's lightly driven really shows up if you look at the stated run times of the XERA at 850 lumens vs the DUO turned down to 60% (840 lumens). It's 540 minutes vs 240 minutes. (I can't wait to test this myself)[/QUOTE]

Hi Jim,
I noticed a typo on the runtime minutes for the Duo. Instead of 540 min. it should be 340 min., which is still about 30% more efficient than the Xera if Gemini is accurate with their 10% step power settings and runtimes.

Do you know if the Due has a seperate optic for each emitter or is it one big optic like the Olympia?

Rakuman, I do have my beamshot of the Xera with the standard 16 degree optic(so call standard back then), reflector and the 14 degree optic that was so call the prototype back when it first came out. The beamshot is in the same park that I use for all my beamshot. I think I also have the MS 808E XML taken at the same time when I did the test for the 14 degree (prototype) optic that was sent to me for testing. If interested, I can located that folder and link some photo if you desired.

That would be Great !
Thanks

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

We've made a special page on our website for you. It won't be available to the general public through our menus but only through the link found here on MTBR. We like using our web gallery to compare beam shots rather than making animated GIFs.. because you lose a lot of the shot quality through GIFs. So we apologize that you can't see the beam shots here on MTBR, but just click the link below to view the comparison.

Also we took it one step further and compared the DUO to the MJ-880 2000 lumen light. Everyone knows the MJ-880 is like two MJ-808Es put together.

Rakuman, here are some beam sample I had in my old photobucket album. Please keep in mind that the title are still list the optics as standard which is the original 16 degree and the picture title as prototype are the 14 degree optics. Standard MTBR setting used. The aim point was at the tree at 200ft and about 15 to 20ft above the ground, there are soda bottle at 100ft mark.

Thanks for the beamshots Colleen and Gemini. While I don't think this is going to be a super thrower I do think it will make up for it in the smoothness and intensity in its beam.
While Geminis path beamshots are nice and give you a representation as you are in a forest. I dont think they give a true representation of what these lights can really do. Colleens open field shots with know targets allow you to see truly how much punch a light has and its spread.
That said Action expect a preorder from me.
Gemini if you put a spots in this light I think you would have a hit....

Last edited by Rakuman; 09-30-2012 at 09:27 AM.

I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a batFor the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking

Unfortunately I did not know Action existed out of US and ordered DUO direct from China. It will be here mid week via TNT shipping for 12$ Cdn. Looking forward to owning a real light for this winters riding. Also posting of beam shots really helped me get a sense of what these amazing lights are capable of. thx

1400 theoretical lumens in such a small package - would be great if it was possible to provide adequate thermal management - would have to be a terribly inefficient option.
You get either light (photons) or heat....too much heat... no light.