Welcome

Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and
others concerned about HIV/AIDS. Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the
conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning: Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive
and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a
username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own
physician.

All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators
of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please
provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are
true and correct to their knowledge.

Since you are presumably HIV+ I suppose your comments are biased as well.

I understand your problem with the word "impossible" being used but saying something is "very low risk" when there is no documented evidence that it has ever happened is equally inaccurate.

There has been documented cases. Why is everyone ignoring the toothbrush case around here?

And yes I am biased. I simply can't rule out that my infection didn't come saliva. And to be responded by a "grumpy old man" that it is impossible, would piss anyone off especially when those statements don't appear on any other authoritative website.

Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth. Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva?? You don't know that for sure. So that is my point. Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this: My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk? Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong. What about the blood in saliva risk? There was no mention of that.

Although I believe your warning is meant well, I have to agree with those posting that saliva, in and of itself, is not a factor in hiv transmission. Your toothbrush analogy really refers to blood transmission rather than saliva transmission. A toothbrush is a good blood transmitter, thus the risk, as inferred by other posters. I believe if you follow the guidelines in the following link, you can put your fears to rest:

"There is one documented case of a child becoming HIV infected by sharing toothbrushes with parents who were both HIV infected. Transmission probably occurred from blood left on the toothbrushes. "

Who documented it? How did they go about it? Were there other unknown variables involved ie. child came in contact with parents blood or bodily fluid and had a cut at site of contact; Sexual abuse (heaven forbid).

I'd like to see something more on this case. IMHO there are too many unknown variables at play to deem it a case of "Toothbrush transmission". I think we would have much more incidents on people, specifically children aquiring HIV by toothbrushes if it were a problem. I'm sure there is more info availbale on this incident, but I cant find it and would like to see it. Perhaps you can provide the info on the case you are referring to.

There has been documented cases. Why is everyone ignoring the toothbrush case around here?

And yes I am biased. I simply can't rule out that my infection didn't come saliva. And to be responded by a "grumpy old man" that it is impossible, would piss anyone off especially when those statements don't appear on any other authoritative website.

Wumpala has the goods when it comes to the toothbrush case.

As for this saliva/kissing bullshit, well JK has laid out the science for you. If that doesn't pass muster in your ivory tower, then nothing will.

As a wise woman once noted:

A person who claims to be infected from kissing or headjobs obviously can't tell his ass from a hole in his head.

Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth. Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva?? You don't know that for sure. So that is my point. Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this: My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk? Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong. What about the blood in saliva risk? There was no mention of that.

What kind of people are you bedding bro? I've never been with someone who has blood in there mouth... are you punching them or something before you kiss them?

So it means you also cannot rule out other routes of transmission in your case.

This whole blood in the mouth-mixed-with-saliva whatnot non-argument is only pushing you to a corner. If you're so convinced that you got it from saliva, and anyone else has any doubt about this "risk" is not scientific then it'd seem to me the most productive thing for you to do is to offer yourself as a case study. Find an institute, list all the evidences pointing out that all your past risks related ONLY to saliva and who knows, maybe you will be the first ever case of confirmed transmission of HIV through oral sex, someone HIV using his saliva to rub your dick, kissing while the other infected person was bleeding in his mouth, or whatever etc.

THEN come back and tell us the approach of this forum in AIM is not scientific.

I am sure by then you will be fully vindicated. But before then, may I respectfully suggest you to shut-the-f-up.

Most people don't have blood in their saliva unless you've got a cut or bleeding gums or just had dental surgery. If you had an open sore on your junk and someone was bleeding from the mouth all over you, then there is risk there. If by chance someone got it that way, they got it from the blood and not saliva.

Most people don't have blood in their saliva unless you've got a cut or bleeding gums or just had dental surgery. If you had an open sore on your junk and someone was bleeding from the mouth all over you, then there is risk there. If by chance someone got it that way, they got it from the blood and not saliva.

Also, trace amounts of blood wouldn't do it. As skeebo pointed out, we're talking about full on gushing here. Honestly though let's just let this thread die and move on. You got a little irked that you aren't allowed to post in the "Am I" forum. News Flash: I agree with everything the people who post in there say and I'm not allowed to post in there either. That forum serves a very specific purpose and to my knowledge no one who has ever been told "You were not at risk" ever came back from the same incident and said "BAM I tested positive from sitting next to someone who had bloody hiv in their saliva".

As for your own infection I want you to think long and hard about where else you could have been infected from, because I really don't think you were infected from receiving a blow(or)rimjob from anybody. End of that day however even that doesn't matter because the end result is the same. I'm poz, you're poz, we're all poz. Let this thread die already for the love of christ (who has a phallus on his chest).

Also, trace amounts of blood wouldn't do it. As skeebo pointed out, we're talking about full on gushing here. Honestly though let's just let this thread die and move on. You got a little irked that you aren't allowed to post in the "Am I" forum. News Flash: I agree with everything the people who post in there say and I'm not allowed to post in there either. That forum serves a very specific purpose and to my knowledge no one who has ever been told "You were not at risk" ever came back from the same incident and said "BAM I tested positive from sitting next to someone who had bloody hiv in their saliva".

As for your own infection I want you to think long and hard about where else you could have been infected from, because I really don't think you were infected from receiving a blow(or)rimjob from anybody. End of that day however even that doesn't matter because the end result is the same. I'm poz, you're poz, we're all poz. Let this thread die already for the love of christ (who has a phallus on his chest).

Hello Ryan, I am a male who while under the influence of alcohol engaged, against my better judgement in a low risk encounter, I was given a blow job and was also rimmed. I've been going through some anxious moments over this encounter since I don't know the HIV status of the person involved. I will probably get tested just for the peace of mind I heard that saliva acts as a barrier against HIV. I can't seem to find any information on this topic. Do you think I'm at risk? and could you please shed some light on the saliva issue? Thank's Ryan.

Response from Mr. Kull

It may not be completely accurate to describe saliva as a barrier to HIV. The most important thing to remember is that there is no evidence that saliva transmits HIV. This makes your risk for infection practically negligible.

The saliva of infected people contains little to no virus, and the virus that is found in saliva is often inactive (not infectious). Studies have found that a protein in saliva inactivates HIV (up to 90% of virus was inactivated in one test tube study) and other factors that may contribute to the noninfectious quality of saliva. This is why transmission through kissing or receiving oral sex doesn't seem to occur.

This does not mean that saliva will PROTECT you from infection. While the proteins in saliva may reduce the risk of transmission to a person performing oral sex (it may explain the low-risk nature of oral sex), saliva does not serve as a barrier to HIV transmission during oral sex. People can still be infected when performing oral sex, even though the risk is much lower than vaginal or anal sex.

Hey Ted there was a post at the Body about 5 years ago from a guy who said he was a drug dealer and got HIV from some female he screwed behind a 7-11. He described the sex act(s) in great detail. I can't find it, but thought you might be able to. Can you give it a go?

Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth. Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva?? You don't know that for sure. So that is my point. Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this: My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk? Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong. What about the blood in saliva risk? There was no mention of that.

You've lost all creditably in your argument. No reasonable person would believe that saliva and blood are the same thing. Your claim is you can get HIV from saliva, not saliva mixed with blood. We all know blood does transfer the virus. There can be blood in my snot that doesn't mean mucus transfers the aids virus.

Hey Ted there was a post at the Body about 5 years ago from a guy who said he was a drug dealer and got HIV from some female he screwed behind a 7-11. He described the sex act(s) in great detail. I can't find it, but thought you might be able to. Can you give it a go?

I'll try. I do read that site as much as poz.com. I'm curious now about all the detail.

Hey Ted there was a post at the Body about 5 years ago from a guy who said he was a drug dealer and got HIV from some female he screwed behind a 7-11. He described the sex act(s) in great detail. I can't find it, but thought you might be able to. Can you give it a go?

I'm going through the 2005 posts. I haven't found the one you're talking about, but came across this question that is on topic. I'll keep looking for yours. Didn't mean yours---unless it was a question you posted...lol.

Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth. Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva?? You don't know that for sure. So that is my point. Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this: My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk? Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong. What about the blood in saliva risk? There was no mention of that.

You're argument that blood and saliva are the same thing is like arguing that Candy Bars and Apples are the same because they both contain sugar.

And it's on the CDC website too. Yes, they just "assume" it was because of blood in the saliva. But it just proves my point of why no doctor or website of authority will state that its impossible to get hiv from saliva. We don't know if someone has bleeding gums, gingervitis, etc that would cause blood to get into salvia. My mouth use to always bleed after brushing, eating, etc when i had a bad case of gingervitus, which only heightened my concern about it in the past.

So why all of you are sticking up to the "grumpy old men" who run this site making misleading statement about saliva, I don't know. But whatever. Think what you want.

And it's on the CDC website too. Yes, they just "assume" it was because of blood in the saliva. But it just proves my point of why no doctor or website of authority will state that its impossible to get hiv from saliva. We don't know if someone has bleeding gums, gingervitis, etc that would cause blood to get into salvia. My mouth use to always bleed after brushing, eating, etc when i had a bad case of gingervitus, which only heightened my concern about it in the past.

So why all of you are sticking up to the "grumpy old men" who run this site making misleading statement about saliva, I don't know. But whatever. Think what you want.

That is not a documented case. You must have over looked the word POSSIBLY in the title.

More to the point, that deep kissing issue was resolved a long time ago when critical scientists began to pick apart the couples' story as well as the researchers' methodology for gathering and analyzing data. Believe it or not, a single study, a single case, which contradicts all other evidence, is looked upon with great suspicion until more evidence, similarly gathered, comes to light. That is why I base my risk assessment not only on the Romero study, but the multiple Page-Shaeffer studies which followed.

In the case you mention, what was overlooked was that the couple was totally self-reporting their risk; were both in questionable recovery from IV drug addiction which included at least one relapse while the study was being conducted, would regularly A) inject in the gumline, thus severely eroding the tiissue and creating unique and substantial wounds, and B) could not say wth certainty that they never shared works.

In the meantime, this couple eventually admitted that they had had unprotected vaginal sex during the study. Whether or not this was done under the influence of IV drugs is irrelevant. That fact alone should have disqualified the study.

Sadly, the CDC has been a governmental entity for over a decade. And the hysteria over HIV transmission fueled a slew of reports which, under any other circumstances and given any other criteria, would never have been published. One by one, these erroneous reports are being refuted - either directly, or through intensive long-term epidemiological study in which patient report contamination is minimized.

It is my strong belief, based on the studies I have put forth, that this information is solid. To bring up one, refuted, sketchy case study to substantiate your claim is, at best, an incomplete rebuttal to my evidence.

Another poster mentioned that HIV science has changed a LOT in the last twenty years. And I agree. Fortunately for the human race, transmission science has closed FAR more doors as regards viable transmission methods than it has opened. You can thank much of that to HAART, which has allowed fifteen plus years of research into HEALTHY, sexually active HIV positive couples and individuals which was frankly not possible before.

On a personal note: You are newly infected. You have an agenda. I get that. You are not the first, nor the most strident. But inasmuch as I would like to participate in these forums with civility and dignity, asking us to rewrite the last fifteen years of concentrated study as regards HIV transmission in order to accommodate your desire to be an innocent victim is, IMHO, asking a little too much of this site. At best, it asks that we be hypocritical between the forums for Positive people, and the forums for the Negative Worried Well people who, no doubt read the other forums even if they are not allowed to post.

I am very sorry that you appear so angry, or frustrated, at this issue. I wish I could be of more help and support at this time. Perhaps later on, when the scientific method becomes extremely important in your determining medicinal choices, some of my research can be of assistance.

I will honestly never understand how some people readily accept huge portions of scientific theory, yet ignore or attempt to refute others.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

So why all of you are sticking up to the "grumpy old men" who run this site making misleading statement about saliva, I don't know. But whatever. Think what you want.

In a world in which you can call Tim Horn a "Grumpy Old Man," we have ceased to function. The man is a trifecta of scientific knowledge, congenial personality, and butter-smearingly hot*.

Newt, as you might have noticed, shares these qualities. One does not have to be grumpy nor old to utilize critical thinking and the scientific method... or barring that, an aegis search and a rudimentary understanding of the politics behind scientific publication through the last decade or two.

*caveat - my personal information to the latter is five years plus old. But seriously.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."