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So I've been upfront when meeting someone new that I'm HIV+ and up until recently, I haven't had any issues. Well recently I told this guy I was and he told SEVERAL people about my status and it's starting to spread like wild fire! So many people don't disclose thier status which I always thought was wrong, but now I'm start to actually understand why they don't.

How can people expect you to be upfront if they are going to be so malicious about your status?

Yeah, I feel your pain but mine was worse, it was my own family putting my status out there.

My father also told everyone on his side of the family about it after I broke the news to him, which was about a month after my diagnosis, and over the phone, since we live about 6000 miles apart. I was somewhat surprised that he would do that. I never confronted him about it. I'm not sure that it would have been easier for me to disclose it individually to the rest of the family, which I would have done anyway, in time.I don't think it was anything malicious on his part, rather, he just didn't know how to cope with this news alone.My mother on the other hand kept her mouth shut. I recently disclosed to her sister during a trip to France last month.

So I've been upfront when meeting someone new that I'm HIV+ and up until recently, I haven't had any issues. Well recently I told this guy I was and he told SEVERAL people about my status and it's starting to spread like wild fire! So many people don't disclose thier status which I always thought was wrong, but now I'm start to actually understand why they don't.

How can people expect you to be upfront if they are going to be so malicious about your status?

Sorry about the previous thread digression about family disclosure. You did the right thing in disclosing your status to this guy. What he did after that was not under your control. Realize that information wants to be free and you can't control it. Disclosure is not something you can take back, as you found out. I think the answer is not to be ashamed of your status. If someone else has a problem with it, well, it's really their problem, not yours.

I think it's best to disclose, not only for the other person, but for your own protection. All these fools whose ads say "will bareback with neg bottoms" -- pu-lease. You know they're probably poz, or for sure going to end up that way. You just don't want them to be able to accuse YOU of getting them there.

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"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Disclosure is not something you can take back, as you found out. I think the answer is not to be ashamed of your status. If someone else has a problem with it, well, it's really their problem, not yours.

That guy is an asshole. But, one of the suckiest things about being poz is that you are both morally and legally obligated to disclose your status to anyone with whom you have sex. This includes safe sex.

It sucks, but it's the way it is. The only way I know how to deal with it is to take control of the information yourself. Rather than letting it be gossip, let it be just one more fact about you. A lot of poz people, rightly so, have a lot of anxiety about stigma, rejection, etc etc etc. These things are going to happen.

Remember, other people are always going to talk about you. Realize that you will never be able to control it. But, you can control how YOU tell people. Yes, you are going to be rejected. And, yes, it will hurt sometimes. There is no magic way to grow a thicker skin or an "I don't give a fuck" attitude. But, somewhere, inside, you're going to need to either figure out a way to do it, or stick with doing other poz guys, or just hide and be unhappy. The word always gets out. It's going to be the same story. It's always going to hurt in the same way. And the rules are always the same.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Hey ... you did the right thing in telling a potential sex partner... and this person is a Jackass... I know a person who was going around telling everyone elses buisness about a hookup they had about their status of being hiv+ in town... This person thought I would be shocked but, all I said was... are you their doctor and asked if this man who was hiv+ was cute? and since he did not want to trick with him could he give me his number! Well that floored this queen... I told the gossip at least he was man enough he had a disease ... oh and have youve been checked? or are you just going by prayer everytime you pick up a trick... Damn... I never did get the number... figures?

Sorry to offer the contrary opinion, or to open this to a old argument.Please check YOUR state's laws as to disclosure of HIV status before a sex act. Also, check YOUR state's laws about HIV transmission.

If there are no laws saying you have to disclose, then you do not have to disclose. If you transmit, it might be a crime, sometimes if you disclose, sometimes if you dont.

Those who say you are morally obliged to disclose, based on what code of morals, please?

Its a good idea to disclose. Maybe its your moral code, so stick to it.

The guy who spread the news was a jerk.

On the other hand, lets take a "hook up" just for sex. Or a place where people meet for sex, not cocktails and a potential boyfriend. Sex club. Park, etc.

In my book, if you are having safe sex in such as situation, you are not obliged to disclose. On the other hand, if a guy asks you, even in such a situation, in my book, I would disclose, since you were asked. Or, just say, "none of your business" and stop having sex with the person, or don't start. Leaves them in doubt - and you have confirmed nothing.

Disclosing in the above sex situations seems even less "morally" obligatory if you are on HAART and undetectable. But, this may, or may not, be LEGALLY advisable, so check it out where you live, or screw around.

Voila. can of worms.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 02:20:18 PM by mecch »

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Prompted by Mecch's post. I just did some research. Interestingly, in most states, unauthorized disclosure of HIV status is also illegal. Telling another person that someone is poz is often something that can be the subject of a lawsuit. It is not limited to just healthcare providers. I didn't know that.

However, if there is a state that doesn't have an hiv disclosure law, I haven't found it yet. (I've only checked 14) I can't find any comprehensive list. But it does seem that the most draconian ones are Florida, Michigan and Texas. To date, there have been approximately 300 cases in the US ranging from misdemeanor to manslaughter. There's quite a range. Although, I haven't found one yet where the law states that it is ok not to disclose. Many states don't have an hiv specific law, but rather just a law that includes willful exposure to a communicable disease being considered assault at best, and attempted murder at worst.

I suppose stating that it is a moral obligation could be a gray area where two reasonable people could disagree. Although it strikes me as wishful thinking that it would be OK not to tell a sex partner all of the information. I certainly would not want to be caught in the situation where an infection occured as the result of non-disclosure. It's just not that important to get off. And, it's just not that difficult to find people who are ok with poz partners, especially when you're talking about casual sex.

so, poz-bruh.... maybe you live in a state where you can sue. Good luck with that.Meech... thanks for pointing out that it's not so unilateral, at least in the US. I doubt that wilful non-disclosure would go unpunished, though, if tested in any US state.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Prompted by Mecch's post. I just did some research. Interestingly, in most states, unauthorized disclosure of HIV status is also illegal. Telling another person that someone is poz is often something that can be the subject of a lawsuit. It is not limited to just healthcare providers. I didn't know that.

However, if there is a state that doesn't have an hiv disclosure law, I haven't found it yet. (I've only checked 14) I can't find any comprehensive list. But it does seem that the most draconian ones are Florida, Michigan and Texas. To date, there have been approximately 300 cases in the US ranging from misdemeanor to manslaughter. There's quite a range. Although, I haven't found one yet where the law states that it is ok not to disclose. Many states don't have an hiv specific law, but rather just a law that includes willful exposure to a communicable disease being considered assault at best, and attempted murder at worst.

I suppose stating that it is a moral obligation could be a gray area where two reasonable people could disagree. Although it strikes me as wishful thinking that it would be OK not to tell a sex partner all of the information. I certainly would not want to be caught in the situation where an infection occured as the result of non-disclosure. It's just not that important to get off. And, it's just not that difficult to find people who are ok with poz partners, especially when you're talking about casual sex.

so, poz-bruh.... maybe you live in a state where you can sue. Good luck with that.Meech... thanks for pointing out that it's not so unilateral, at least in the US. I doubt that wilful non-disclosure would go unpunished, though, if tested in any US state.

Your survey is extremely incomplete. The best method is to check with a local AIDS service organisation or gay rights group or health department. New York State law is extremely imprecise. IF there has never been a prosecution in NYS for sex without disclosure, why would it be legally prohibited now? I think there are states where transmission is the big no no. In other states, non disclosure itself is a no no.From the law, as written, to enforcement is another matter to consider.

I am not an expert.

I don't even live in the USA, but I am a citizen.

In 25 years of fun and games, I can count on one hand the number of guys who have spontaneously disclosed in a sex only situation.

If you personally think it is wrong to not disclose, go ahead and stick to your principals. But there may not be a legal imperative depending on what country or state you live in. Also, increasingly, depending on whether you are undetectable or not. Sorry, that is the messy reality.

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Mecch, I completely agree that the reality is messy. Truthfully, I can't say I really can remember that many people disclosing to me before I disclosed the them. But, that had a lot to do with the fact that I've always been very public about my status. So, for me it's skewed. But, at least during the years that I was a complete whore, I never really had that much difficulty. Men are pigs.

Anyway, some states don't have hiv specific laws but a long history of treating hiv as a lethal weapon. So the list at thebody.com is a bit misleading. Although, otherwise your postings are extremely informative. Thanks for posting. It sounds like Mass is the place to live.

I still stand by my assertion that it is wrong to disclose. I just can't find any moral justification for not doing so. Ethics are, ultimately, subjective. There are many good, reasonable people who disagree with me.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

But it does seem that the most draconian ones are Florida, Michigan and Texas.

Texas has "draconian" laws regarding disclosure? Do tell! Granted, you can get 30+ years for spitting on someone if you're HIV+, but I don't think there's anything on the books for consensual or trick sex until there's actual transmission. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I used to feel one way about this. It took a while, but I have to admit seeing some of the struggles some go through here with trying to meet someone without being judged up front seems to be quite a nightmare. I think it is up to the person and what they choose to do, The one thing I do hope that if one is positive they choose to use protection during sexual encounters, Other than that it is a personal preference whether to disclose or not.

The only thing I use my morals for is when I buckle my seat belt... wait a second that's just self preservation... What the hell are morals anyways..... I think I'm more of an ethical kind of guy Like not cheatin on my wife and changing diapers and stuff. But wait those are commandments and duties and stuff. Man I forgot where I was going with this...... stiff frazzled from work, some poor lady turned onto some train tracks and got stuck on a bridge.... Instead of calling 911 she called roadside assistance and got me.

Sorry for the rant... can't stand to hear a woman cry! Sorry for the hijack also... I had a point but lost it in my need to share.

Only tip I have is just be careful who you disclose to because you don't know what some of these crazies will do.

From MECCH: "On the other hand, lets take a "hook up" just for sex. Or a place where people meet for sex, not cocktails and a potential boyfriend. Sex club. Park, etc.

In my mind, if you are having safe sex in such a situation, you are not obliged to disclose. On the other hand, if a guy asks you, even in such a situation, in my book, I would disclose, since you were asked. Or, just say, "none of your business" and stop having sex with the person, or don't start. Leaves them in doubt - and you have confirmed nothing."

My thoughts:

In a sex club or similar situation, if you are undectable, on HAART, play safely (always) then I don't think you need to disclose. People in such places generally behave as if everyone else is poz and if you run into someone who doesn't, don't play with them. Untested pos people (I saw a number suggesting 25% of pos people don't get tested?) are far more dangerous.

Going into the same situation, not undectable and seeking unsafe sex is clearly problematic.

In a sex club or similar situation, if you are undectable, on HAART, play safely (always) then I don't think you need to disclose. People in such places generally behave as if everyone else is poz and if you run into someone who doesn't, don't play with them. Untested pos people (I saw a number suggesting 25% of pos people don't get tested?) are far more dangerous.

Going into the same situation, not undectable and seeking unsafe sex is clearly problematic.

How about a one night stand from a bar/nightclub pick up that you take back home to your place (i.e. non-sex club hook up) -- all other precautions as you described remain the same (i.e. on HAART, specifically suppressed viral load I guess, and of course using a condom)

How about a one night stand from a bar/nightclub pick up that you take back home to your place (i.e. non-sex club hook up) -- all other precautions as you described remain the same (i.e. on HAART, specifically suppressed viral load I guess, and of course using a condom)

Hmm. If one has sex with the intention its just sex and not relationship material, in the above situation, no obligation to disclose. This could backfire if he turns into prince charming and you have to disclose a few humps down the road. But, if he rejects you then, its the same result, he wasn't for you. You might be hurt, however.

Long term f*ck buddy also poses an interesting question.

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

I think Philly is using NYC as an example, the same could be said about any city that I have ever been to.

I think the choice to disclose is a personal decision. There is no right or wrong answer. If you do, be prepared for some stigma from some people and also some gossip. If you don't, be prepared for the repercussions if people you sleep with do find out you are positive.

I choose to disclose upfront because I feel it gives me some kind of power over my status. I don't worry so much of infecting anyone because I only have safe sex now. I understand if people don't want to have sex with me because of it, I try not to take it personally. I think most people are pretty cool about the whole situation, in most cases it isn't the first time they have heard this news from a potential romance.

YOU - great guy for disclosing.HIM - HUGE asshole for disclosing. Or maybe not ..

Something similar happened to me. I disclosed my status to a friend (non-sexual) who proceeded to tell many others. It was not his right to do so and yes, I sure was pissed.

Then about a month later, another friend asked me to lunch. We landed on the subject of "asshole friend" and he confided in me that our mutual friend disclosed to him that I was poz. He told me this because he recently found out he was poz and needed someone he could talk too. I was glad to help.

I had a somewhat similar experience to Wildcat. In 2004/05 I was working as a substance abuse counsellor. We shared a building with an alcohol support agency. I was out about my status to both agencies.

One of the women who worked for the alcohol agency was very excited to hear about my status - because she had a positive client. This client and I live in the same small town, so she was sure I'd know the client. I reminded her she could not legally or ethically tell me this person's identity. Wow, was she disappointed. I did give her some reading materials to pass on to this person, and offered that she was free to disclose MY status to her client and if the client wanted to talk, I was more than happy to give my time and support.

Well, her client never made any further appointments. Over a period of about six weeks, the alcohol counsellor dropped ever increasingly specific hints as to her positive client's identity. I talked to her supervisor and she was told to stop, but she didn't. I'd actually put my hands over my ears and walk out of the room when she'd start hint-dropping, but eventually I heard enough and knew her client's identity. I had known this person for years, as it turned out, and we've always been on friendly terms, but not what you'd call close.

I told her supervisor about the illegal disclosure, but no disciplinary action was ever taken. I probably should have gone to the relevant governmental board, but was advised by my own supervisor to "not rock the boat". I was struggling at the time with fatigue issues (largely due to going back to work too soon after my hep C treatment) and I really didn't have the energy to do what needed to be done without the support of my colleagues, so I had to drop the issue.

Anyway, I sat on the information for a few years, all the while knowing this person was very isolated and closeted regarding hiv infection. I agonised over how to reach out to this person without this person freaking out. Finally, on World Aids Day 2007, I bit the bullet and rang the client up to ask if I could drop in for coffee and a catch-up. It was absolutely the right thing to do. The client told me of the desire to talk to me about it for years (as most of you know, my status is no secret) but couldn't gather the courage to do so.

We are very close friends now and my only regret is that I didn't reach out sooner. I informed my friend how I found out, but my friend, although very angry at the counsellor at first, decided to not take any action. My friend decided that the eventual outcome was more important.

And I never realised until I wrote this story out just how hard it is to discuss a third party without giving anything about them away, such as gender. My friend has very good reasons for remaining closeted, no other people are being put in danger of infection through the non-disclosure, and I wouldn't dream of putting any information anywhere that might lead to identification.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I've been very fortunate so far. I've chosen for a number of reasons to keep my status private, particularly from my friends who know that I'm gay and used to be very sexually active. While I made my choices, after 10 years of well-meaning "Be safe", I really just wanted to turn around and punch a few of these people.... it started to feel like a lecture rather than well-wishing.

The sexual non-disclosure is a separate issue. I do not see how one can NOT tell a potential partner you are infected, even if there are consequences to you. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to.

I've mitigated the disclosure risk by simply having sex a lot more with my right hand, and occasionally the left hand for variety. It's not a very satisfying answer for many people, but for where I am in my life, it actually works out very well. If I met someone I liked, I would feel no need to disclose until sex was imminent.

You must disclose both legally and for your own clear conscience. The unfortunate circumstance you had with the loser bum that couldn't keep his yap shut was no more than an evil action that is part of the reason that hell is so nearly full to capacity that some of us may get to go to heaven soley due to lack of space in hell. Living in a small gossipy Missouri town where everyone knows if you pass gas before you even get back to the house, I can understand your frustrations. Here in Missouri you can easily get 25 years to the death penalty for non disclosure. ( just read an article about it a few days ago after I got out of the hospital) . In Iowa you can go to prison for non disclosure before kissing. WTF? It is a very screwed up bigotted world we live in. It is our job not to be the screw up. I know it is hard to tolerate. Many have even suggested that you must protect yourself by getting that disclosure in writing and even witnessed due to the number of cases where the person lies and says you didn't disclose resulting in criminal prosecution you have no way to otherwise defend. (you say-he says). From what I have read, the courts usually side on the side of the accuser. I would further suggest that such written disclosure also state that if the person you disclose to blabs, that you will pursue every legal means available to see that they lose everything including both balls. The laws against us are very one sided. No other disease has this stigma or level of penalties. You can spread Hepatitas A,B,C, or Papillomaviras 24 hours/7/365 days per year w/o penalty . Even people with those infections should disclose to give you the option of saying yes/ no/ lets be extra careful. We live in a society of hateful people looking for drama. Use this as a learning experience. You may also talk to your case manager if you have one worth having and ask them to talk to the A hole to explain how uncool he has behaved. I would also tell others you are comfortable with what a jerk this guy is. Over time the loser bum scumbag jerk will only be having sex with the 4 fingers of his right hand because everyone who doesn't want to be talked about will avoid him. I am sorry you had to go through this, but appreciate you sharing so that others may learn from it. There is a wealth of advise available here from people who care. Good Luck!!

In a sex club or similar situation, if you are undectable, on HAART, play safely (always) then I don't think you need to disclose. In a anon situation, like a sex club for example:- if you are on meds- if you are undetectable- if you take playing safe seriously (specifically use a condom for anal sex)- and you have no expectation of any relationshipThen the risk of any transmission is nil

ruralguy, some HIV meds do not pass the brain barrier OR THE GENITAL barriers to kill the virus. I take Atripla. Unfortunately it is one of those drugs. I have <48 (undetectable ) blood viral load, but it was still there in full force in my ejaculate ( at least before the prostatectomy when there was still such stuff). You still need to use protection even if you are undetectable . Condoms are not infallable. Even undetectable doesn't mean it's not there. The virus is there. It is just in too low of a quantity for the test to find more than 48 copies in the sample. It only took one cell of the nasty little bugger to infect you. One is all it will take to infect someone else. The laws stills says you must inform and everyone should have the option to decline or give informed consent. Yes, if you are undetectable, the chances are less than if you pump someone full of 50,000 copies, but the chance still exists. USE PROTECTION. HEP A,B,C, drug resistant HIV, herpes, other STD's can go TWO ways. It is not a one way street.

I would never bareback with anyone....period...whether you inform them of your status or not, it is simply not something a poz person can do anymore. That is is how poz people become poz and that is over.

Here is what I was suggesting:

In a anon situation, like a sex club for example:- if you are on meds- if you are undetectable- if you take playing safe seriously (specifically use a condom for anal sex)- and you have no expectation of any relationshipThen the risk of any transmission is nil. Then I suggest you don't need to tell your partner. Furthermore, if you run into someone who does not play safe you are obligated to leave that situation and find someone else to play with.

Lastly it is certainly true that in doing this you run the risk of picking up some other STD but it is very unlikely to be hiv. It is also true that there are legal issues in some places and not others. And if you have any expectation of getting to know someone as a sex partner, lover, or just as a friend you need to tell them pretty soon or it is unlikely to be a successful relationship of any sort.

Responsible people in such an anon situation assume everyone is poz and that is how they stay safe. I suggest poz people on meds and undetectable are probably some of the safest people to play with in such a situation as their health is regularly tracked. Untested, untreated poz people are the worst, and they will be there too, so you have to protect yourself.

I haven't found myself in a situation like this and I think this forums are a good place to discuss it. I read so much lasting fear of and withdrawl from sex here that it makes me wonder if it isn't so over-the-top as to be unhealthy. A decent sex life is part of being a healthy person.

I read so much lasting fear of and withdrawl from sex here that it makes me wonder if it isn't so over-the-top as to be unhealthy. A decent sex life is part of being a healthy person.

You got that one right.

Actually, short term celibacy is theoretically OK but only if one doesn't lose interest in sex, meaning specifically you still whack off daily (preferably with really raunchy German porn). It's when you lose all interest in things sexual that it's indicative of depression.

Disclosure falls in another different category altogether. If you disclose, more power to you: it's a sign of strong character, contributes to fighting stigma and may be even better for you in the long run. It's a personal decision, a supererogatory act, not a duty.

I believe the opposite is lopsided and counterproductive.

We are all equally responsible for taking care of our health. It's not lack of disclosure what allows transmission, it's unsafe sex. We did not end up in this forum because someone (who might know he or she was poz or not) didn't say "hey, by the way, I'm hiv positive" while unzipping his/her fly, we did because we had sex without taking the appropriate measures to prevent transmission from happening. There is not such a thing as safe serosorting between neggies, precisely because being negative is just a supposition.

As long as neggies keep placing the emphasis in disclosure instead of doing it in safe sex as a personal responsibility, the number of pozzies will keep growing. When it's us, the positive, the ones who treat disclosure as if we were talking about a sacred duty, I can't help but wonder whether we are still dwelling on why we weren't told: blame and what if, what if, what if... It's time to move on.

And don't get me started with criminalization...

PS: FYI, I'm all for disclosing myself, but because it's my choice, not because I believe I should be obliged to.

You cannot assume everyone in this forum got HIV due to unprotected sex, some of us may have gotten it thur Blood transfusions, dirty needles, bad surgical equipment, believe it or not that still happens...you simply cannot say everyone in this forum who is POZ+ got it due to unprotected sex, that's a little unfair.......

« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 02:09:30 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

You cannot assume everyone in this forum got HIV due to unprotected sex, some of us may have gotten it thur Blood transfusions, dirty needles, bad surgical equipment, believe it or not that still happens...you simply cannot say everyone in this forum who is POZ+ got it due to unprotected sex, that's a little unfair.......

Cool word, Loop, thanks for using it. I had to look it up, something I rarely have to do because I'm such a word-nerd (armchair etymologist).

I agree with what you said as well. Non-disclosure doesn't cause transmission, unsafe sex does.

Personally, I always disclose too, and yes, I also view it as a personal choice, not something that's obligatory. I've even used disclosure as a handy way to get rid of some schmuck in the pub who thinks he's god's gift and won't take a simple "no thank you" for an answer. It's usually jerks who are like that and jerks usually run a mile when they hear those magic "I'm hiv positive" words. Works like a charm. Disclosure is a very good asshole screening mechanism.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I've even used disclosure as a handy way to get rid of some schmuck in the pub who thinks he's god's gift and won't take a simple "no thank you" for an answer.

Doesn't always work with homos I'm afraid. If they're clingy types it can even backfire. They think it makes you more desperate, in need of "mothering" and thus an even easier catch. Then you have to try three times as hard to shake the toilet paper off of your shoe.