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... the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices. So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

... however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

... maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.

Sounds to me like the player/owner can try all sorts of settings in an attempt to alleviate the issue, although no answer is to be found.

Is this the player's fault, or, Casio's?

Who is going to "fix" these issues?

I still think there's no issue. Every "pro" keyboard I've ever played works the same way (to me, it would be a flaw if it worked differently), and Mike Martin has confirmed that's how it is supposed to work, and that previous Casios worked the same way. The OP wants the results he hears on the PX-130 clip... I think all he needs to do is operate the sustain pedal appropriately.

The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.

Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this

But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.

The piano and strings on the PX-350, respond similarly to the example of the PX-130 in the video link above...although both the string and piano sounds are new.

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply.

Is there a setting anywhere on the PX 350 that gets rid of the infinite sustain? That's the major beef i have with this model at the moment.

PX-350I haven't read the manual of the 350, but I believe it works the same way my older PX-575 does. It is necessary to adjust your pedaling technique or the strings will overpower the other sound layered with it. It might be more pronounced with the new sound processor and better sustain, I don't know as I have not played one yet. Perhaps you are not used to the half pedaling? Adjusting the volume of the strings patch should help. I don't know if it works differently on any other manufacturers DP's as I have never paid attention to it. String patches do seem to have quite a bit of volume to them, even those generated on a computer. You have to balance out the strings in a recorded mix.

When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys? It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.

Not "we all" - I most certainly am using Dvorak And also, there is another issue about the computer keyboards - that almost all of them are made for two right hands - even the split keyboards, so called "ergonomic" ones.And all laptop and notebook computers.

A simple test:

put your fingers on the home row keys where they belong.I guess, for QWERTY keyboards it will be the left hand index finger on F, the right hand index finger on J.I don't really know which the other keys are, because I am using Dvorak and the key labels on other keys on the home row are gone on my keyboard.

Anyway, when your four fingers are on the home keys, try to type a key one row above without moving your hand and without lifting the other three fingers from their home keys.

with the right hand: with the J finger (index finger) press the U key - works perfectly.

with the left hand: with F finger (index finger) press R key - your finger hits the middle between two keys, unfortunately.In order to press the R key you need to lift the other three fingers - to move/shift the whole hand, or to keep the hand at an unnatural angle: instead of keeping your hands this way: / \ you need to keep them like this: \ \ - only then you hit the correct keys with the left hand. The same with other fingers, or with hitting keys on the lower row.

There are not many correctly made computer keyboards (with keys correctly aligned in columns in directions of your fingers) and they cost a lot. Such good keyboards are: Kinesis Contoured, Maltron, DataDesk (Darwin) SmartBoard - this excellent keyboard is no longer made, unfortunately.

Why they are making almost all the keyboards with the rows of keys so badly misaligned?

Because mechanical typewriters used to be made that way, because they had to accommodate the key levers, that's why.And how many of the current computer users have even seen mechanical typewriters? Except in movies?

Stupid traditions. Exactly the same with the size of piano keys. They were increased to the current size in order to solve some technical issues with aligning hammers with the strings or something like that. Perhaps to make enough room to fit all those escape mechanisms and to make the keys and all the parts strong enough. These technical issues were solved long ago and this increased size is no longer needed.

What is surprising to me, is that Kawai James thinks there is no market large enough for keyboards with smaller size keys (normal size, really) when it should be obvious to him that not only a significant percentage of the current pianists would welcome smaller keys but also many new people would want those keyboards because suddenly they could play piano too.And everybody would buy them for their children.I really think that the current key size could become history.

You know what? We get your beef. It's just that most of us don't agree with it.

No, I don't think you do.If you got it, you would agree with me.I am not demanding that all the pianos were made with smaller keys, I only want a choice which size to buy.There cannot be anything more natural than that.

And you are wrong about "most of us".Most of us do not reach C#-F with perfectly relaxed hand.Many of us struggle even with octaves or do not tolerate pain well enough to play piano at all.

The situation with piano keyboards is exactly the same as with computer keyboards. Because of some stupid tradition nobody is making the right keyboards.

Currently, only $10,000 upright pianos are available in USA in 7/8 and 15/16 sizes. And how much it would cost to ship such a piano to Europe. With all the taxes probably $15,000?

Casio PX-150 etc. are exactly the perfect instruments to introduce those sizes.Because the first trial balloon models should be under $1000:people would easier try new and unknown if they do not have to risk too much money. Then will come the more expensive ones.

If there's really a significant market for this idea, and if the engineering and production challenges are all that easy to overcome, someone will offer such a keyboard. All manufacturers prefer larger rather than smaller profits. (And if all your assumptions are wrong, it's baffling why we haven't seen huge federal grants for such a project.)

If manufaturers don't jump in -- and if the demand is so great and producing it would be so simple -- then put together your own business plan and crowdsource some capital to back it up.

Yes, some new digital piano maker could jump in.Or at least a midi keyboard maker.It is really hard to comprehend that there still are no such keyboards from an old or a new maker.

As to production challenges - acoustic pianos or their replaceable keyboard assemblies are successfully being made already.For digitals everything is so much simpler.And such a logical place to start - with the cheapest digitals or midi controllers.

So thanks for the idea. I was just thinking where to invest my money in those uncertain times...

It is really hard to comprehend that there still are no such keyboards from an old or a new maker.

One would expect the DP market to be somewhat rational, but it pretty much isn't. All DPs could be significantly improved in a variety of ways for the same price or less, and the way forward is quite clear, but you might just as well spend your time hollering at a deaf snail to creep faster. My suggestion is to drastically lower your expectations when you enter here.

This is something of a crosspost from the Keyboard Mag forum, but as there's a lot of interest in the PX-350, I thought I'd repost most of my impressions here.

I got mine today. First impressions - looks nicely built for the price range, seems a bit more robust than my choir's PX-320, which I use every week.

The keybed feels like it was inspired by Roland's RD700GX/NX models, albeit a "poor man's version" - the "ivories" feel more like matt plastic than anything close to the real thing and the grain of the "ebonies" is way over-exaggerated - not exactly pleasant under the fingers. The key travel is quite deep, and it has quite a heavy action for its class.

The opening "Grand Piano Concert" tone, over the internal speakers, sounds pretty good top and bottom, but there is an artificial quality to the mid-range. Never mind - let's get this baby patched into my Focusrite audio interface and hear what it sounds like over my Tannoy Reveal Actives.

Something's wrong. I've got the Focusrite inputs ramped up towards around "8" but there's hardly any signal from the Casio coming through them. Still coming through the internals loud and clear, though.

After some searching in the manual, I came across this little nugget:

Quote:

When using the line out jacks, also connect headphones to the phones jacks. This will switch the line out output to appropriate sound quality.

So I put a headphone jack adapter into one of the phones sockets and whomp - the sound in the line outs immediately comes up to a useable level. Now, I'm sorry, but this is a big issue for me - here's why...

I found that the PX-320, while pretty mediocre through either the internal speakers (naturally enough) or external monitors, sounded really quite impressive with the combination of an external speaker cab (to add volume and bass depth) and internal speakers (to add stereo imaging right where you want it most).

But now you can't do that - unless you amplify the external signal to extreme levels, it's an essentially useless signal unless you plug in a headphone jack - which, of course, mutes the internal speakers.

Why Casio should choose to do it that way, I have no clue, but at a stroke, they've deleted one of the Privia's best-selling points, IMO.

It quickly began to go downhill from there. Through the studio monitors, I decided I didn't really like any of the pianos much except the first, default one. Even the much-vaunted "Dolce Grand".

Also, I seem to notice an unevenness in the top end of the velocity curve - it seems rather too easy to hit the top of the response range, resulting in some unexpected "barking" in the APs - more of this in a moment.

The EPs are all OK in pinch-hitting situations, but that's about it. Other sounds are of curiosity value only, IMO.

For a last throw of the dice, I hook the Privia up to the Kronos. Maybe it can serve, at the very least, as a decent 88 keybed for the Korg.

But immediately, I run into this velocity response issue again. Driving the Kronos default German Grand, it seems to hit "top" far too easily. Of course, I tried adjusting the response on the Kronos (and I admit I didn't spend too long trying) but I was still hitting the same problem.

The PX-350 has been repacked and scheduled for a return.

I wanted very much to like this (and yes, of course I'm spoiled by the pianos on both the Kronos and the Stage) - but I'm sure I could have learned to live with many of these compromises had it not been this crazy decision to not let you use external and internal speakers together.

Yes the issue with having to switch out the internal speakers (by means of plugging into a headphone socket) to obtain a decent output was exactly the same with the PX-330. The PX-3, without speakers of course, does not have this problem. I have not tried the PX-350 so have not evaluated the piano sound quality for myself. However there is the new feature of being able to play wave files directly from a USB memory stick. This sounds like a very useful idea but what I cannot ascertain is whether or not it is easy to adjust the wave volume output without going through numerous button operations. With some keyboards there is a separate control for such sound output and this is ideal but I don't think the PX-350 has this. Has anyone tried the wave file output feature? It is a shame you were disappointed as it sounded a promising keyboard.

It is always possible that the PX-3 will be replaced and updated and maybe they will further improve the pianos. However I am not in a position to confirm this.

not to interfere, but couldn't you try to adjust the velocity curve a bit more before sending it back ? I think the standard curve is an average and often not to everybody's liking. Luckily most DP' s offer enough options to adjust the velocity respons. I was wondering if you would like the piano presets and keybed in the end when properly adjusted.

The issue with the headphone plug enabling audio out will stay of course, but I was really curious how you would judge the keybed/ AP combination when adjusted to your playing style...there are not many good user reviews around so far.

Yes the issue with having to switch out the internal speakers (by means of plugging into a headphone socket) to obtain a decent output was exactly the same with the PX-330

Actually I own a PX-330 and that is not the case. In fact the opposite is true. If you put in an adapter to shut off the internal speakers, there is a stereo field expansion and a bump in the lower eq applied to the signal which sounds good in headphones but not so good through the line outs. Playing both the internal speakers and line outs simultaneously is just fine.

_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still rememberHow that music used to make me smile....

My goodness! If this issue with the internal speakers needing to be shut off before getting a usable signal from the line-outs is universally true for all PX-350s, it makes me wonder why on earth the engineers didn't consult gigging pianists - such as Mike Martin! - before instituting such a crass new "feature".

I was looking forward to hearing from Aidan that this was the perfect lightweight gigging tool. Oh well, the wait continues...

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

In the meantime, here it is in a band setting - Steve LeBlanc hitting it out of the park with Jason Bonham's Led Zeppelin Experience. The EP is on a Receptor but the piano solo starting about 3.00 is the Casio's internal piano.

With the internal speakers ON, nothing plugged into the headphone out.

The PX-350 functions the same as all the previous models such as the PX-310, PX-320, PX-330 in this regard (although without the dramatic EQ change)

So there's a misunderstanding, or the specific unit of Aidan is perhaps not functioning as it should ? In other words , there shouldn't be a problem using both speakers and line outs simultaneously ? I'm puzzled by the different posts here..

If there's really a significant market for this idea, and if the engineering and production challenges are all that easy to overcome, someone will offer such a keyboard. All manufacturers prefer larger rather than smaller profits.

For a minute there I almost thought you were talking about the piano industry.

The PX-350 functions the same as all the previous models such as the PX-310, PX-320, PX-330 in this regard (although without the dramatic EQ change)

Great to know that it you can indeed use the speakers and line outs at the same time, and also that they addressed the EQ issue that at least the 330 apparently had. But I wonder why the PX350 manual recommends that you connect something to the headphone jack when using the line outs?

Mike, Some food for thought here. Since the PX-350 is mainly for piano, why not make it really shine for AP and EP. Seems like some posters prefer the EP on the PX-3 to what is on the 330/350. Casio's older models with the ZPI had some very good sounding EP's, and the CDP-100 was pretty good also. Maybe these patches could be resurrected? Also is the ability to turn on DSP and apply DSP to other sounds eliminated? The old 3000 series workstations and PX-575 all had these abilities.

But I wonder why the PX350 manual recommends that you connect something to the headphone jack when using the line outs?

There is a difference in gain, but not enough as Stephen Leblanc's video demonstrates that would create any issue in using it that way live.

In fairness to Mike and Casio, I'm posting my follow-up comments here as well as the other forum...

In the wake of Mike's comments, I'm really wondering whether the unit I received has a defect.

What I CAN tell you all is that it is less than two weeks since I had a PX-320 in the studio, hooked up to exactly the same equipment with the same settings.

With its internal speakers active, there were NO issues whatsoever with the level coming out of the line-outs - I could easily turn up the external component of the sound until it overwhelmed the internal speakers. It was such a non-issue that I didn't bother to try defeating the internal speakers.

The same just is NOT true of the unit I received - at same or similar settings used with the PX-320, I had to stand up and put my ear closer to the studio monitors to check that some signal was coming through to that source.

Aidan, the Roland FP series is notorious for having low gain in default mode. When driving external speakers, if you turn the internal gain up, the sound level can easily overwhelm the internal speakers - and the piano doesn't remember the gain settings on power-down. The remedy for certain situations was to add a little Behringer Xenyx 1002FX mixer between piano and speakers. The 1002 has switchable +4dB/-10dB inputs, which neatly cancels out the problem. I suspect that this would also give the PX-350 the extra boost it needs.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

Hi - could we keep the discussion about key size in the specific thread that was created for that subject ? It's dedicated to that request and here it keeps on mixing up with the reviews and thoughts about the new Casio PX series. Just my thought...

I played one of the new Privias yesterday at a Guitar Center. They told me they had just taken it out of the box that morning. Unfortunately, they had not hooked up the pedals correctly, or else the unit was defective, because the damper pedal only worked intermittently.I played for a couple of minutes with the onboard speakers, and wasn't really that happy with the sound. I had neglected to bring my own headphones, so I asked them for a pair which improved it some, but I still find the piano sounds on my AP-620 to be much more realistic sounding. As for those new "textured" keys, I am not sure quite who thought those were a good idea. They don't look like any piano keys I have ever seen, nor do they feel like real keys. The Ivory Touch keys on the 620 are much closer to a regular piano. It seems, too, that over time oil from your fingers might attract dust or dirt which would stick in the little grooves and be a pain to clean.I might go back sometime when they have the pedals hooked up, and with my own headphones, but at this point I see no reason whatever to want to replace my 620.

Which Privia model did you try? I'm waiting for the PX-750 to be on display.

The speaker configuration seems to get better as you go up in model level:PX-150: two 13cm/6cm (rectangular)(8W)PX-350: two 13cm/6cm (rectangular) + two 5cm (8W)PX-750: two 12cm (8W)PX-850: two 12cm + two 5cm (20W)

Originally Posted By: leemax

I played one of the new Privias yesterday at a Guitar Center. They told me they had just taken it out of the box that morning. Unfortunately, they had not hooked up the pedals correctly, or else the unit was defective, because the damper pedal only worked intermittently.I played for a couple of minutes with the onboard speakers, and wasn't really that happy with the sound. I had neglected to bring my own headphones, so I asked them for a pair which improved it some, but I still find the piano sounds on my AP-620 to be much more realistic sounding.

You better believe that those textured ivories will always look filthy...not to mention way more difficult to keep clean. Personally, I like traditional satin ebonies and gloss ivories, both for their touch and to keep clean. Also, glides (glissandos) don't hurt as much on normal keys as they did when I tried a few on these textured keys. Hey, different strokes for different folks. Many will probably LOVE the new keys.

As for those new "textured" keys, I am not sure quite who thought those were a good idea. They don't look like any piano keys I have ever seen, nor do they feel like real keys. The Ivory Touch keys on the 620 are much closer to a regular piano. It seems, too, that over time oil from your fingers might attract dust or dirt which would stick in the little grooves and be a pain to clean.

@leemax,

Yes, you are right as the current glossy "Ivory Touch" keys (that are smooth and non-textured) are absolutely perfect as they feel great to start with, and, they do not pick up any dirt/oil. They are far more resilient to scratching than textured keys.

Looks like changing over to the new textured key tops might be a mistake for Casio, since the current ones were just fine. It remains to be seen if these textured keys will show wear as they did with Roland's key tops.

Looks like changing over to the new textured key tops might be a mistake for Casio, since the current ones were just fine. It remains to be seen if these textured keys will show wear as they did with Roland's key tops.

Yeah, unfortunately it's a marketing point, and one that is being used by all the manufacturers. The truth is that real ivory isn't all the special as a key surface and is inferior to the typical key surface in some ways. I have a really hard time with Roland's ivory surface (I don't own one, so it's just when I play in stores that it matters) and this has nothing to do with the scratches. Shiny and clean works for me. Most acoustics don't have an ivory feel surface. I don't even like ivory feel in acoustic grands like Yamaha's and Kawai's.

Dissenting voice here. As a performing player, I really appreciate the move to faux ivory/ebony. I used to have serious issues with shiny keys and sweaty fingers during summer gigs - particularly on the black keys.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"