Ok, I agree with you completely, this is exactly what I was getting at. TM is trying to implement Detroit's system without Detroit's players. It's dumb,and regardless of any other issues, TM is clearly not a quality coach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJeasy

Huskins and Wallin are on Yawney.

The Detroit system works where the young guys have to serve huge apprenticeships before advancing. Unfortunately, the guys above them aren't that much better. In a sense it is McLellan not recognizing the difference between SJ and Det. Part of that issue is DW not hanging onto guys and getting a bit trade happy because he didn't get enough good culture into the guys he had. Detroit started with culture first and does everything to keep guys around who embody the culture, even on the lower lines.

Agree totally on both, too many castoffs of players whom should have remained and, we all know the discussion on T.M.

This is really part and parcel of TM's "just keep shooting the puck on net" startegy and points out, IMHO, the biggest shortcoming of McLellan - inability to adapt.

That strategy led to regular 40+ shot performances and offensive blowouts last season - but as the year went on, other teams adjusted and TM seemed unwilling/unable to adjust to other teams adjustments.

The Sharks became predictable.

This became painfully obvious against Anaheim. The Ducks were able to shutdown the Sharks Power Play (4 for 23) and then take physical liberty with little or no consequence. Yet, I saw no sign of TM making any adjustments.

Now, all TMs adjustments seemed to be borrowed from Ron Wilson's line change wheel of fortune rather than trying to get some stable set of lines to adjust their play and execution. It basically comes across as flailing.

The only scenerio that could work now, though, would be for DW to pull a LL and put himself completely on the spot - and face it, he already is. If this swoon continues and the Sharks go out in the first round, DW is as good as gone.

The players may have zoned out on TM and feel they have to accountability to TM - but that would likely change very quickly if their GM were staring at them on the bench.

Give Greiss a few starts in a row and let Nabby just reset. Rest and reset. Greiss can use a few starts in a row and the Sharks can see what exactly they have with him. Can't be any worse than Nabby has been playing lately.

I don't think we need to scratch PM, JT or the like. They are struggling, but you don't see any other team scratching their star players when they go through a bad stretch like this. And teams have waaay worse stretches than this.

Well it looks like scratching the star players option has been ruled out by TMac (from DP's blog):

“Are we going to put that type of player on the bench and sit him there for a game? It’s probably not going to happen. They’re too valuable,” he said.

“And let’s face it, we’re going to win or lose with these guys and we have to get through this with them. We can’t take them out of the group and say, ‘You sit and watch. Let’s let the rest of them find their way out.’ That’s not how it happens. They have to lead the way out.”

I asked Scott Nichol if it was possible for a team not to get too low after a loss like last night’s, what with all the talk all the time of staying on an even keel.

“We can’t. We all are. It’s very discouraging that we can’t get out of it right now,” he said of the overall mood.

“I wish I had the answer. It’s unbelieveable,” Nichol said. “I would have never thought we could lose six in a row. This is such a talented team, I would have thought one guy would basically carry us on his back and get us out of it. Maybe we’re all trying to do too much. I don’t know.”

And then TMac adds this gem concerning ice time for Thornton and others:

“If you look at his minutes, they were cut down last night. The lines were changed, they weren’t on that last power play. That does happen,” the coach said.

Way to send a message Todd. Not sending them out there on a PP when the game had been over for awhile. Bravo to you.

Well it looks like scratching the star players option has been ruled out by TMac (from DP's blog):

“Are we going to put that type of player on the bench and sit him there for a game? It’s probably not going to happen. They’re too valuable,” he said.

“And let’s face it, we’re going to win or lose with these guys and we have to get through this with them. We can’t take them out of the group and say, ‘You sit and watch. Let’s let the rest of them find their way out.’ That’s not how it happens. They have to lead the way out.”

I asked Scott Nichol if it was possible for a team not to get too low after a loss like last night’s, what with all the talk all the time of staying on an even keel.

“We can’t. We all are. It’s very discouraging that we can’t get out of it right now,” he said of the overall mood.

“I wish I had the answer. It’s unbelieveable,” Nichol said. “I would have never thought we could lose six in a row. This is such a talented team, I would have thought one guy would basically carry us on his back and get us out of it. Maybe we’re all trying to do too much. I don’t know.”

And then TMac adds this gem concerning ice time for Thornton and others:

“If you look at his minutes, they were cut down last night. The lines were changed, they weren’t on that last power play. That does happen,” the coach said.

Way to send a message Todd. Not sending them out there on a PP when the game had been over for awhile. Bravo to you.

Well can't say I'm suprised. He is right about one thing, they do need to lead the team out of it, no one else.

Let's be reality here. Doug Wilson is not the most proactive GM out there. He takes his time to make big decisions like coaching changes. We knew Ron Wilson should've been gone at least a year before he actually was. Now on Todd McLellan's 2nd season, do you really think he's going to fire him mid-season? That would be extremely out of character for him.

Now Doug Wilson's excuse for firing Ron Wilson was sometimes the students need a new teacher even if they're teaching them the same things. Now that the new teacher is there and in general is teaching them the same things and the results are unchanged, if not worse, there's only two places you can put the blame. The players and Doug Wilson.

The chances of Doug Wilson resigning or in some way holding himself accountable in terms of action is remote. He may talk to the media and say some nice things but they don't hold water. The chances of him getting fired even after a 1st round exit is still remote in my eyes. The ownership group didn't fire Dean Lombardi until they tanked a season. While they did improve after his first few years, there were problems with him as a GM that forced a bad season and it was a problem that had occurred prior to the start of the 2002-03 season.

So in reality, there's two, maybe three levels of discussions here. One is the players because you assume neither the coach nor the GM will get canned. One is the coach because it is technically possible but a minute possibility. The third is the GM. We all know every single one of them is a problem in their own right. And SJeasy is right about the whole pedestal thing. However, with DW in charge, that's not going to change because he basically put that out there, especially this off-season.

Now in the present, DW can fire TMac. If not that, DW is pretty much useless. TMac can only do two things. Bench players and manage ice time. If he's unwilling to do that, he is pretty much useless. After that, it simply comes down to the players. The fact is that with all this undisciplined play, nobody in the room has taken control. This is worse than anything under Patrick Marleau's captaincy since JT came here. By far worse and it is bordering on the worst thing that did happen under PM's captaincy just prior to JT's arrival. I think it's about time that people understand and admit that the captaincy thing was never really the problem when it comes to the room. We all know my feelings on where that problem lies.

Now for the purposes of this thread, there are two umbrellas of discussion and it bears pointing out that people should make sure which one they're falling under when it comes to making a comment. One is what SHOULD happen. The other is what WILL happen. This organization is not going to do what it should unless there is a major loss in money (i.e. missing the playoffs). Doug Wilson has no idea what should be done and that should be obvious to all by now. Todd McLellan, I think, knows what should be done but because he's so green, he's got no pull. And besides that, it's true he is stubborn and has his faults and probably should go too but I sincerely doubt it will happen for at least another season. The players, regardless of who's captain, have never taken it upon themselves to change and it's silly to expect them to with everything being what it is.

What will happen, imo, is this. The team will make the playoffs and the owners will be cool with DW. DW will be upset...again. He will make major changes this off-season. Letting everyone go with the exception of maybe Malhotra, Nichol, and Ortmeyer. He will probably make another blockbuster trade involving a goalie and/or defenseman. He will fill the holes after that. He will probably privately inform McLellan that he's on a short leash even though he's never really helped him get the guys he needs for his system. This part is a three-way cycle. Coach should have a system based on the players. GM should bring in players based on the system. Players change but the system and culture don't change at all. This will likely repeat until DW screws up enough in the off-season to miss the playoffs and that's when he'll get the boot and the organization can finally move on.

Well it looks like scratching the star players option has been ruled out by TMac (from DP's blog):

“Are we going to put that type of player on the bench and sit him there for a game? It’s probably not going to happen. They’re too valuable,” he said.

“And let’s face it, we’re going to win or lose with these guys and we have to get through this with them. We can’t take them out of the group and say, ‘You sit and watch. Let’s let the rest of them find their way out.’ That’s not how it happens. They have to lead the way out.”

I asked Scott Nichol if it was possible for a team not to get too low after a loss like last night’s, what with all the talk all the time of staying on an even keel.

“We can’t. We all are. It’s very discouraging that we can’t get out of it right now,” he said of the overall mood.

“I wish I had the answer. It’s unbelieveable,” Nichol said. “I would have never thought we could lose six in a row. This is such a talented team, I would have thought one guy would basically carry us on his back and get us out of it. Maybe we’re all trying to do too much. I don’t know.”

And then TMac adds this gem concerning ice time for Thornton and others:

“If you look at his minutes, they were cut down last night. The lines were changed, they weren’t on that last power play. That does happen,” the coach said.

Way to send a message Todd. Not sending them out there on a PP when the game had been over for awhile. Bravo to you.

that really is a gem of a comment from Todd, one powerplay the whole season! and way too late!

Wasn't that the essence of TM & Co.'s strategy for this team? I haven't seen much of it lately.

In fact, mostly what I've seen is the Sharks trying to skate the puck up ice through the other teams defense, barely making the blue line, and making a 3 foot pass to a player who has no choice but to dump it in to no one. JUST DUMP IT IN, GET THEIR D TURNED, RETRIEVE IT!!

In our end we are always 1 or 2 steps behind in anticipating where the puck is going. Watch any recent game closely and compare the movement of off-puck players and you will notice our guys are 1 or 2 steps behind. This is purely a confidence problem and our players being way too concerned about "how to get our game turned around" instead of just wanting the puck.

I also remember TM once saying that Joe need to take more shots to keep other teams guessing. Well currently, there is an almost 100% guarantee that Joe will pass the puck. Even when he is wide open in the slot he passes it! There are 2 ways to shut down Joe: overwhelm him with pressure on the boards and/or take away his passing options if he isn't going to shoot. If Joe doesn't start taking more shots, he won't draw more defensive coverage and thereby open more space for his linemates.

I hope Joe is catching major hell for his recent turnovers. Joe, they all know you're going to pass!

I think the idea that the players need to lead themselves out of this situation is over. It's time for the coaches to step in and reset. It's easy for a player to get lost in their search for the way out and the coach has to step in and say (right or wrong), "this is what we're going to do." Once things are settled down and the team is re-focused, players can take the reins back and get creative again.

Let's be reality here. Doug Wilson is not the most proactive GM out there. He takes his time to make big decisions like coaching changes. We knew Ron Wilson should've been gone at least a year before he actually was. Now on Todd McLellan's 2nd season, do you really think he's going to fire him mid-season? That would be extremely out of character for him.

Now Doug Wilson's excuse for firing Ron Wilson was sometimes the students need a new teacher even if they're teaching them the same things. Now that the new teacher is there and in general is teaching them the same things and the results are unchanged, if not worse, there's only two places you can put the blame. The players and Doug Wilson.

The chances of Doug Wilson resigning or in some way holding himself accountable in terms of action is remote. He may talk to the media and say some nice things but they don't hold water. The chances of him getting fired even after a 1st round exit is still remote in my eyes. The ownership group didn't fire Dean Lombardi until they tanked a season. While they did improve after his first few years, there were problems with him as a GM that forced a bad season and it was a problem that had occurred prior to the start of the 2002-03 season.

So in reality, there's two, maybe three levels of discussions here. One is the players because you assume neither the coach nor the GM will get canned. One is the coach because it is technically possible but a minute possibility. The third is the GM. We all know every single one of them is a problem in their own right. And SJeasy is right about the whole pedestal thing. However, with DW in charge, that's not going to change because he basically put that out there, especially this off-season.

Now in the present, DW can fire TMac. If not that, DW is pretty much useless. TMac can only do two things. Bench players and manage ice time. If he's unwilling to do that, he is pretty much useless. After that, it simply comes down to the players. The fact is that with all this undisciplined play, nobody in the room has taken control. This is worse than anything under Patrick Marleau's captaincy since JT came here. By far worse and it is bordering on the worst thing that did happen under PM's captaincy just prior to JT's arrival. I think it's about time that people understand and admit that the captaincy thing was never really the problem when it comes to the room. We all know my feelings on where that problem lies.

Now for the purposes of this thread, there are two umbrellas of discussion and it bears pointing out that people should make sure which one they're falling under when it comes to making a comment. One is what SHOULD happen. The other is what WILL happen. This organization is not going to do what it should unless there is a major loss in money (i.e. missing the playoffs). Doug Wilson has no idea what should be done and that should be obvious to all by now. Todd McLellan, I think, knows what should be done but because he's so green, he's got no pull. And besides that, it's true he is stubborn and has his faults and probably should go too but I sincerely doubt it will happen for at least another season. The players, regardless of who's captain, have never taken it upon themselves to change and it's silly to expect them to with everything being what it is.

What will happen, imo, is this. The team will make the playoffs and the owners will be cool with DW. DW will be upset...again. He will make major changes this off-season. Letting everyone go with the exception of maybe Malhotra, Nichol, and Ortmeyer. He will probably make another blockbuster trade involving a goalie and/or defenseman. He will fill the holes after that. He will probably privately inform McLellan that he's on a short leash even though he's never really helped him get the guys he needs for his system. This part is a three-way cycle. Coach should have a system based on the players. GM should bring in players based on the system. Players change but the system and culture don't change at all. This will likely repeat until DW screws up enough in the off-season to miss the playoffs and that's when he'll get the boot and the organization can finally move on.

Let's be reality here. Doug Wilson is not the most proactive GM out there. He takes his time to make big decisions like coaching changes. We knew Ron Wilson should've been gone at least a year before he actually was. Now on Todd McLellan's 2nd season, do you really think he's going to fire him mid-season? That would be extremely out of character for him.

Now Doug Wilson's excuse for firing Ron Wilson was sometimes the students need a new teacher even if they're teaching them the same things. Now that the new teacher is there and in general is teaching them the same things and the results are unchanged, if not worse, there's only two places you can put the blame. The players and Doug Wilson.

The chances of Doug Wilson resigning or in some way holding himself accountable in terms of action is remote. He may talk to the media and say some nice things but they don't hold water. The chances of him getting fired even after a 1st round exit is still remote in my eyes. The ownership group didn't fire Dean Lombardi until they tanked a season. While they did improve after his first few years, there were problems with him as a GM that forced a bad season and it was a problem that had occurred prior to the start of the 2002-03 season.

So in reality, there's two, maybe three levels of discussions here. One is the players because you
assume neither the coach nor the GM will get canned. One is the coach because it is technically possible but a minute possibility. The third is the GM. We all know every single one of them is a problem in their own right. And SJeasy is right about the whole pedestal thing. However, with DW in charge, that's not going to change because he basically put that out there, especially this off-season.

Now in the present, DW can fire TMac. If not that, DW is pretty much useless. TMac can only do two things. Bench players and manage ice time. If he's unwilling to do that, he is pretty much useless.
After that, it simply comes down to the players. The fact is that with all this undisciplined play, nobody in the room has taken control. This is worse than anything under Patrick Marleau's captaincy since JT came here. By far worse and it is bordering on the worst thing that did happen under PM's captaincy just prior to JT's arrival. I think it's about time that people understand and admit that the captaincy thing was never really the problem when it comes to the room. We all know my feelings on where that problem lies.

Now for the purposes of this thread, there are two umbrellas of discussion and it bears pointing out that people should make sure which one they're falling under when it comes to making a comment. One is what SHOULD happen. The other is what WILL happen. This organization is not going to do what it should unless there is a major loss in money (i.e. missing the playoffs). Doug Wilson has no idea what should be done and that should be obvious to all by now. Todd McLellan, I think, knows what should be done but because he's so green, he's got no pull. And besides that, it's true he is
stubborn and has his faults and probably should go too but I sincerely doubt it will happen for at least another season. The players, regardless of who's captain, have never taken it upon themselves to change and it's silly to expect them to with everything being what it is.

What will happen, imo, is this. The team will make the playoffs and the owners will be cool with DW. DW will be upset...again. He will make major changes this off-season. Letting everyone go with the exception of maybe Malhotra, Nichol, and Ortmeyer. He will probably make another blockbuster trade involving a goalie and/or defenseman. He will fill the holes after that. He will probably privately
inform McLellan that he's on a short leash even though he's never really helped him get the guys he needs for his system. This part is a three-way cycle. Coach should have a system based on the players. GM should bring in players based on the system. Players change but the system and culture don't change at all. This will likely repeat until DW screws up enough in the off-season to miss the playoffs and that's when he'll get the boot and the organization can finally move on.

Let's be reality here. Doug Wilson is not the most proactive GM out there. He takes his time to make big decisions like coaching changes. We knew Ron Wilson should've been gone at least a year before he actually was. Now on Todd McLellan's 2nd season, do you really think he's going to fire him mid-season? That would be extremely out of character for him.

Now Doug Wilson's excuse for firing Ron Wilson was sometimes the students need a new teacher even if they're teaching them the same things. Now that the new teacher is there and in general is teaching them the same things and the results are unchanged, if not worse, there's only two places you can put the blame. The players and Doug Wilson.

The chances of Doug Wilson resigning or in some way holding himself accountable in terms of action is remote. He may talk to the media and say some nice things but they don't hold water. The chances of him getting fired even after a 1st round exit is still remote in my eyes. The ownership group didn't fire Dean Lombardi until they tanked a season. While they did improve after his first few years, there were problems with him as a GM that forced a bad season and it was a problem that had occurred prior to the start of the 2002-03 season.

So in reality, there's two, maybe three levels of discussions here. One is the players because you assume neither the coach nor the GM will get canned. One is the coach because it is technically possible but a minute possibility. The third is the GM. We all know every single one of them is a problem in their own right. And SJeasy is right about the whole pedestal thing. However, with DW in charge, that's not going to change because he basically put that out there, especially this off-season.

Now in the present, DW can fire TMac. If not that, DW is pretty much useless. TMac can only do two things. Bench players and manage ice time. If he's unwilling to do that, he is pretty much useless. After that, it simply comes down to the players. The fact is that with all this undisciplined play, nobody in the room has taken control. This is worse than anything under Patrick Marleau's captaincy since JT came here. By far worse and it is bordering on the worst thing that did happen under PM's captaincy just prior to JT's arrival. I think it's about time that people understand and admit that the captaincy thing was never really the problem when it comes to the room. We all know my feelings on where that problem lies.

Now for the purposes of this thread, there are two umbrellas of discussion and it bears pointing out that people should make sure which one they're falling under when it comes to making a comment. One is what SHOULD happen. The other is what WILL happen. This organization is not going to do what it should unless there is a major loss in money (i.e. missing the playoffs). Doug Wilson has no idea what should be done and that should be obvious to all by now. Todd McLellan, I think, knows what should be done but because he's so green, he's got no pull. And besides that, it's true he is stubborn and has his faults and probably should go too but I sincerely doubt it will happen for at least another season. The players, regardless of who's captain, have never taken it upon themselves to change and it's silly to expect them to with everything being what it is.

What will happen, imo, is this. The team will make the playoffs and the owners will be cool with DW. DW will be upset...again. He will make major changes this off-season. Letting everyone go with the exception of maybe Malhotra, Nichol, and Ortmeyer. He will probably make another blockbuster trade involving a goalie and/or defenseman. He will fill the holes after that. He will probably privately inform McLellan that he's on a short leash even though he's never really helped him get the guys he needs for his system. This part is a three-way cycle. Coach should have a system based on the players. GM should bring in players based on the system. Players change but the system and culture don't change at all. This will likely repeat until DW screws up enough in the off-season to miss the playoffs and that's when he'll get the boot and the organization can finally move on.

It's really sad that there are a lot of us that wonder if TMac has "lost the room."

Even more sad that we all know that even if DW agrees with this assessment, he's too scared to make a change now a la firing Ftorek and hiring Larry Robinson or firing Therrien for Bylsma. Of course since you can't get people from other organizations mid-season (or can you?), even if DW thought it was time for a change, he'd probably have to do what Pittsburgh did and bring in their AHL coach, i.e. Roy Sommer takes over here with the interim tag. Trent Yawney would be horrible as head coach. So would Doug Wilson, IMHO, because he has so little coaching experience.

It's really sad that there are a lot of us that wonder if TMac has "lost the room."

Even more sad that we all know that even if DW agrees with this assessment, he's too scared to make a change now a la firing Ftorek and hiring Larry Robinson or firing Therrien for Bylsma. Of course since you can't get people from other organizations mid-season (or can you?), even if DW thought it was time for a change, he'd probably have to do what Pittsburgh did and bring in their AHL coach, i.e. Roy Sommer takes over here. Trent Yawney would be horrible as head coach. So would Doug Wilson, IMHO, because he has so little coaching experience.

It's really sad that there are a lot of us that wonder if TMac has "lost the room."

Even more sad that we all know that even if DW agrees with this assessment, he's too scared to make a change now a la firing Ftorek and hiring Larry Robinson or firing Therrien for Bylsma. Of course since you can't get people from other organizations mid-season (or can you?), even if DW thought it was time for a change, he'd probably have to do what Pittsburgh did and bring in their AHL coach, i.e. Roy Sommer takes over here with the interim tag. Trent Yawney would be horrible as head coach. So would Doug Wilson, IMHO, because he has so little coaching experience.

None of the guys within the organization is fit to be a head coach and I think DW knows that. The only realistic immediate option that would be suitable for this team in this environment in this time frame would be Ken Hitchcock.

And bring in JR too, right? Seriously, I'd love to have a bunch of players coaches who were former players with heart, but you do need an X's and O's guy. Isn't that why Granato failed in his head coaching stints?

Not that he's any good or anything, but I suppose Wayne Gretzky is available. Pat Burns too (And he's good, supposedly).

None of the guys within the organization is fit to be a head coach and I think DW knows that. The only realistic immediate option that would be suitable for this team in this environment in this time frame would be Ken Hitchcock.

TM's biggest issue for me is he isn't innovative. Also, he's trying to use a system that isn't appropriate for this team. If you want to keep his system, then you need to bring in blue-liners with superior foot speed and stick-handling who shut down the play at the blue-line. A fast offense top to bottom who rely on transition, creativity, and puck recovery.

Right now you've got a slow defense with poor stick-handling who back into the zone and attempt to clog up the shooting lanes (but suck at blocking shots) and are not aggressive on the puck carrier. You've got an offense who tries to play a grinding, cycling, offensive game that relies upon timing and individual skill. It's just a mess.

This post may me then wonder if Todd had any involvement at all in the various deals that happened the past year. I think most of us could agree that the system he wants to play was actually pretty well built for our team last year (with the team speed we had from top to bottom). I think most of us can also agree that we got a heck of a lot slower (not just from trading Ehrhoff, but also Milan, and the players we acquired, like Wallin). I can't imagine DW and TM failed to notice that happened, so did DW just not talk about it with Todd, or did Todd say he would change the system to fit the team, or what? And if there is some failure of communication between management and coaching about what types of players they want on the team, that could be a big problem.