Given that football is a zero-sum competitive game, the two are the exact same thing.

Every single game we win is through the failure of the opposition, and we can only win anything if everyone else fails to do so.

(If I was a better man, I probably wouldn't mention here that just the other day you defended vigorously a club that considers a 4th place finish, and thus qualifying to the CL, equivalent to a trophy. But I'm not, so I do.)

All I'd said was I'd rather we have automatic qualifaction for European football through either a legitimate position rather than all this teenage angst about who wins what or doesn't that gets us in through the back door.

I never thought they was so controversial.

*. Oh and @Major Clanger don't distort the truth I never said Arsenal thought 4th was a trophy or even implied it.

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There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

All I'd said was I'd rather we have automatic qualifaction for European football through either a legitimate position rather than all this teenage angst about who wins what or doesn't that gets us in through the back door.

I never thought they was so controversial.

*. Oh and @Major Clanger don't distort the truth I never said Arsenal thought 4th was a trophy or even implied it.

It's stating the obvious really. You'd rather we finish 6th and be in Europe than finish 7th and be in Europe. Who wouldn't. It was the other nonsense that was a bit daft

Look, I don't think there is as much disagreement between people on here as it appears. Sure, we'd all like to finish as high as possible. But finishing 7th while rebuilding the team after two horrendous seasons isn't par for the course, it would be a genuine achievement. And if the competition rules say that achievement is worth a European place, great.

It's not like we say "let's not commit any fouls for the rest of the season in the hope that we get in the EL through the fair play route". That would indeed be sneaking in through the back door.

I'd love a few away days with the local blues over to Europe. I'd rather we got there on our own terms like, "better than the rest" so to speak. Getting a european place for seventh as opposed to cup runners up would be great too, if we can't do it under our own steam. After all, we're a work in progress and will probably warrant the place, if say for example, Millwall or Lincoln are runners up. Uefa want the best teams in their competition and Millwall or Lincoln just wouldn't cut it. This is probably why the rules have changed. So personally, I'd feel worthy of a place either way.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 05:36:02 PM by pjk »

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Steinbeck's maxim: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”.

I'm also of the opinion that European football isn't the bee all and end all.

It gives you a chance of winning another trophy. Ignoring if it is good for boosting the clubs profile, being more attractive for players etc the bottom line is we are all desperate to win trophies and being in the Europa gives us another option.

Rubbish. We're not a top 4 side who would view the Europa League as an inconvenience in a push for the title. We've spent the past few years in the wilderness, playing games in Europe and a chance to win another bit of silverware is what we're all in football for.

Fine sentiments but not borne out by the stats.. the vast majority of teams league position suffers substantially by being in the Europa League.

We are a still team in transition and getting Euro football without the squad to cope with it isnt helpful.

Qualifying for Europa League by finishing seventh is going to happen more and more. The big clubs have such squads that it's more and more likely that they will dominate the League and cups for years to come. Even in the last 20 years I can only remember two F A Cup winners coming from outside the top four.

If we want to be a bigger, better, more successful club, we have to embrace challenges and things that might make life harder in the short term, but might help us much more in the longterm. We have to get into the pattern of playing Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday (or similar variations), and we have to increase our ambition and our intent as a club and a fanbase.

Buy and develop more players, have a bigger, deeper quality squad. The challenges that are presented by that scenario are the responsibility of the manager and his staff. That's why they are handsomely paid. If they can't do it well, get another manager and another management team. We need to overcome this 'little old Everton' mentality, whilst keeping our core values.

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Jeff: That's not the way to win.Kathie: Is there a way to win?Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.