I'm not calling people immature, comparing homosexuals to murderers and pedophiles is some poorly thought out comparisons. If a person has done anything more than a cursory glance at some material on the subject a person would realize why those comparisons are not very good.

Frank Delicious wrote:I'm not calling people immature, comparing homosexuals to murderers and pedophiles is some poorly thought out comparisons. If a person has done anything more than a cursory glance at some material on the subject a person would realize why those comparisons are not very good.

Plus I didn't troll DGCR.

Frank, my man, you just said reading the past few pages of this thread like being in tenth grade again.... isnt that calling people immature?

Cursory glance? Pete townsend was just doing research, right?

You have been trolling DGCR. People over there have said it. It's cute and funny and all that crap, but a troll is a troll and you seem to fit the criteria. How many post have you made on DGCR? How many have been helpful? How many antagonistic?

Back to the topic... When we are done bitching at each other ofcourse , what's the best way to integrate gays in the military? I don know... maybe dont ask, dont tell is the best answer for this generation.

If there was a real war I would not hesitate to serve in the line with a homosexual. Maybe we need a real threat to make these kind of changes? the all vounteer army of these days seems to reek of politics. Who am I to judge after all...

Roy wrote:Frank, my man, you just said reading the past few pages of this thread like being in tenth grade again.... isnt that calling people immature?

I believe I explained how it was like being in tenth grade.

Cursory glance? Pete townsend was just doing research, right?

Wut?

Back to the topic... When we are done bitching at each other ofcourse , what's the best way to integrate gays in the military? I don know... maybe dont ask, dont tell is the best answer for this generation.

If there was a real war I would not hesitate to serve in the line with a homosexual. Maybe we need a real threat to make these kind of changes? the all vounteer army of these days seems to reek of politics. Who am I to judge after all...

The problem with saying the status quo is best answer for this generation is two fold. One, how do you define "generation"? Two, keeping the status quo for now is setting a precedent for the future will people can just keep the policy in place because it is just easier.

I believe anyone brave enough to dodge bullets, suicide bombers, and roadside IEDs is brave enough to overcome irrational fears of homosexuality. I also believe that anyone willing to die for our country should be given the best from us, not the worst.

And in the end, Mullen is right, its a matter of honor. You can't uphold honor while at the same time telling people they have to lie about who they are.

discspeed wrote:Sexual orientation is not a choice. I didn't choose to get a hard on when I saw the Victoria's secret catalog when i was 11 years old, it just happened. Sexual stimuli produce an autonomic response that does not occur in the decision making part of your brain. I choose to beat my meat to that catalog, but the desire was not a choice. Unlike murdering, that choice was not antisocial, and neither is homosexual behavior.

What about pedophiles? They may have the same reaction. Are they born that way?

99.9% of pedophiles were molested when they were young. Its a cycle, an illness with a direct cause. When someone is molested, their sexuality is often cemented at the age at which they were abused, so in the future they are stimulated by children the age they were at when abused. Doesn't anyone watch Dr. Phil? This claim cannot be made about homosexuals, and I'd hoped to cut any comments like this off at the pass when I mentioned that it is not antisocial, aka, hurting someone like pedophilia.

discspeed wrote:99.9% of pedophiles were molested when they were young. Its a cycle, an illness with a direct cause. When someone is molested, their sexuality is often cemented at the age at which they were abused, so in the future they are stimulated by children the age they were at when abused. Doesn't anyone watch Dr. Phil? This claim cannot be made about homosexuals, and I'd hoped to cut any comments like this off at the pass when I mentioned that it is not antisocial, aka, hurting someone like pedophilia.

You bring up part of my point-- there is an influence of factors that determine a person's sexuality that is from the outside, not necessarily genetic. In this case with pedophile, it usually revolves around what happen when they were young.

There are also influences that help develop sexual behavior in homosexuals. A large part is a disconnect with the father or mother. There is a sense of wanting to establish a relationship that isn't/wasn't there. This can happen when they are young, and they become identified by what they experience. They maintain their identity all the way up through adulthood and it becomes a part of the norm. In my estimation, experience becomes habit and the fine line is usually crossed in assuming that it was always habitual which leads people to believe that homosexuality is genetic and not influenced by environment.

discspeed wrote:99.9% of pedophiles were molested when they were young. Its a cycle, an illness with a direct cause. When someone is molested, their sexuality is often cemented at the age at which they were abused, so in the future they are stimulated by children the age they were at when abused. Doesn't anyone watch Dr. Phil? This claim cannot be made about homosexuals, and I'd hoped to cut any comments like this off at the pass when I mentioned that it is not antisocial, aka, hurting someone like pedophilia.

You bring up part of my point-- there is an influence of factors that determine a person's sexuality that is from the outside, not necessarily genetic. In this case with pedophile, it usually revolves around what happen when they were young.

There are also influences that help develop sexual behavior in homosexuals. A large part is a disconnect with the father or mother. There is a sense of wanting to establish a relationship that isn't/wasn't there. This can happen when they are young, and they become identified by what they experience. They maintain their identity all the way up through adulthood and it becomes a part of the norm. In my estimation, experience becomes habit and the fine line is usually crossed in assuming that it was always habitual which leads people to believe that homosexuality is genetic and not influenced by environment.

While I will not despute that environmental factors can always have an influence, it is equally true that biological factors play a role in homosexuality as well. In either case very little is left to choice.

I expect there to be more information of the genetetic aspects of this in the near future. As it is there has already been hormones identified that influences gender identity. While obviously we enter our development in utero having chromosomes that determine our gender, there are certain hormones released in the process and timing is very important. These hormones control genital development and ultimately influence gender identity. Basically we all have nothing, or start out female. When certain hormones are released males develop penises and the other differences that make them distinctively male like higher testosterone production. There is a lot of variance, and sometimes these hormones are released late, are absent, etc. The result can be fetuses that have penises, but lack the other hormones that link to being a male and instead have high estrogen instead of testosterone. Some girls produce more testosterone than estrogen, and some of these females have enlarge clitorises that actually resemble penises. With all this variance it is clear that even biological sexuality is not black and white, so it is no surprise that gender identity is not black and white either. The result is people who even as infants/small children have an gender identity contrary to their physical body. In essence, they are born gay. There has been a lot of research supporting this and obviously I summated it in a simplified manner, but you cannot discount that biology has a great influence on this as well as environment.

However one arrives at being gay, they should be allowed to live free of discrimination, and the current policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is certainly discriminatory.

sunspot wrote:There are also influences that help develop sexual behavior in homosexuals. A large part is a disconnect with the father or mother. There is a sense of wanting to establish a relationship that isn't/wasn't there. This can happen when they are young, and they become identified by what they experience. They maintain their identity all the way up through adulthood and it becomes a part of the norm. In my estimation, experience becomes habit and the fine line is usually crossed in assuming that it was always habitual which leads people to believe that homosexuality is genetic and not influenced by environment.

I'm at work substituting and showing a video to a 12th grade English Honors class, so I'll write some more. While in my other post I said that I do not dispute that environmental factors have the potential to influence outcomes, your example is quite weak in the context of explaining the high occurence of homosexuality in humans. There is a ridiculous amount of people that fit your above example, boys growing up without knowing their fathers, girls growing up without their mothers, that do not end up being homosexual. Of all homosexuals, the vast majority have brothers or sisters that grew up in the same environment yet did not become homosexuals themselves. Gay siblings are very rare, and that is one of the strongest indicators of biology playing the major role.

As I see it right now, the most influencial force behind homosexual bigotry in our country currently is religion. However, as more evidence is discovered regarding the biological component of homosexuality, major religious institutions are softening their stances. My cousin is gay and is accepted by his church without being shamed or made to feel that there is something wrong with him or his path to happiness is sinful. There are hundreds of gay/lesbian pastors and even gay bishops around the country. As time passes I really believe christianity as a whole will change its view on homosexuality.

Last edited by discspeed on Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.