sailorseal wrote:I really like it but I am not quite sure what the theme is.

Maybe i am not understanding you, but i think there is a very clear theme(if you really cant tell it is GOBLINS).I dont know how you cant see this hopefully you will once you read this post

Although this theme is clear you may want to play around with it and see what other ideas you can get, in terms of texture for the land and background(i like the goblin theme, so i wouldn't change it o much).

I am confused on a few things and I think they can easily be fixed.1.Could you change "chiefs" to goblins,or even goblin chiefs, it would make it much clearer2. You have the bombarding set up more like attack routes, what about instead of those route things, you just say that all "chief"(or goblins) can bombard each other.

Also could you think of some more clever names instead of bloods and muds, fangs and skulls are okay, but i think you could make better.

sailorseal wrote:I really like it but I am not quite sure what the theme is.

Maybe i am not understanding you, but i think there is a very clear theme(if you really cant tell it is GOBLINS).I dont know how you cant see this hopefully you will once you read this post

thank you my brain exploded when i read that

tlane wrote:I am confused on a few things and I think they can easily be fixed.1.Could you change "chiefs" to goblins,or even goblin chiefs, it would make it much clearer2. You have the bombarding set up more like attack routes, what about instead of those route things, you just say that all "chief"(or goblins) can bombard each other.

1. You are completly right about "chiefs" should be changed to Goblin Chief even thou its a little redundant it should be clear on the legend and state Goblin Chiefs2. this is something I've been debating myself due to the fact that one chief cannot bombard all the other "goblin Chiefs" only the nearest as stated at the bottom of the map thought i needed to note the bombardment route to idiot proof it..... (but i have learned that is impossible for some) but maybe if i move the part at bottom of the map closer to the legend it will help but i would prefer to have it just written in the legend and not clutter the map

tlane wrote:Also could you think of some more clever names instead of bloods and muds, fangs and skulls are okay, but i think you could make better.

sorry but i am quite fond of these names yes simple but goblins aren't the brightest creatures as well from all of the books and D&ding i have done goblin tribe names have always been simple and some what dull

but if you have better ideas for names of the tribes or territs even i'd love to hear and even us them

Though I understand your Theme is Goblins---the graphics on the map don't seem to contribute to this theme. For some reason, I get a sense of blobs and slime and goo. IT could be the shapes, the colors, textures---or most likely, a combo of them all.

The map feels a little small, territory wise---but for the most part, the general direction of the map is alright---just perhaps look into redesigning the map a litle, working on the theme.

i am currently working on some changes adding more territs adding hobgoblin hutsbut i was wondering if maybe i should incorporate "Gwyn ap Nudd" a welsh goblin tribe leader as well I'll probably be changing the tribe names to the main sub types. Knockers(welsh and cornish folklore) trows(scottish folklore) spriggans (english) and the phooka(irish) or maybe kobolt(german) but i think that it would be best for the first four mentioned if i do incorporate "Gwyn ap Nudd" anythoughts

It's nice to see somebody making a "fun" map - silly creatures, weird names like blrup, and the like. My concern right now is that this map has a split personality thing going on - the text and monsters are sharp and silly, but many other map elements are dark, blurry and brooding. i think you have to figure out which map you want to make.

Gameplay looks alright for a start... having not read through the thread I'm guessing that holding 7 "Muds" means seven territories that begin with "m" - if this is the case then Hooray! for make-your-own bonuses, but you'll have to explain it better. And be careful that the territory names aren't too similar - somebody will totally place their troops on Blrup when they meant to place them on Blruk.

sailorseal wrote:I really like it but I am not quite sure what the theme is.

Maybe i am not understanding you, but i think there is a very clear theme(if you really cant tell it is GOBLINS).I dont know how you cant see this hopefully you will once you read this post

thank you my brain exploded when i read that

I understand the Goblins but I meant, what makes it worthwhile for Goblins?I could make a Ghosts Map or Couch Lint?What will attract people to this map, think about that.The Goblin title makes me want to get my eyes checked, it is so blurry, tune it down.I kind of like the slime affect but I would like to see it be a slime affect throughout, not just in the landscape, add it to all parts.I believe a symbol is hiding below one of those mountains, I would reveal it

Things changed, in progress, and discussion needed -added more territs bringing the total up to 38 +4 neutral starts so 42 territs in total since 42 is the answer to life the galaxy and everything i would like to add at least 4 more playable areas to start thus i could split the land more or i could make the chiefs seperate territs(kinda lazy)

-started working on hobgoblin hut i have an early look at it on fungi i have not added it to the legend or anything yet because i'm think about how i can and it in for game play functionality. A few thoughts i have is its a separate territ starting neutral able to attack other huts visa versa -I slightly changed the highlight colours of the texture to make it not look as slimy and more like a ground look surrounded by the Forest of Faces i am trying for a plastercine or clay look but as i am very colourblind i must remind my self that everyone else sees different colours then i do

oaktown wrote:Gameplay looks alright for a start... having not read through the thread I'm guessing that holding 7 "Muds" means seven territories that begin with "m" - if this is the case then Hooray! for make-your-own bonuses, but you'll have to explain it better. And be careful that the territory names aren't too similar - somebody will totally place their troops on Blrup when they meant to place them on Blruk.

-this got me thinking to switch up the legend and territ names i have found a nice font to use for the territ and i have incorporated the tribe symbol to the territ name i have inly began to do this does this make it clearer and then i can change the legend up i.e skulls aswell i'll try and not have the name to similar -refined the border more and many other little touch-upsthings to dofinish up changing the territ fontsfinish up hobgoblin huts

to anwser your questions sailorseal

sailorseal wrote:I understand the Goblins but I meant, what makes it worthwhile for Goblins?I could make a Ghosts Map or Couch Lint?Could you?What will attract people to this map, think about that.people are atracted to it there has been a good amount of views maybe 50 - 60 are mine it takes awhile for a huge amount of interest due to this being my first map but i'm very patient and comments come it slowly but surely

I'll probably add a little poem to add to the theme but that isn't as important yet due to all they other things that need fixing before i add finishing touches

as well if you would have read this post about 2 or three above yours you would see that i'm working on it

Danyael wrote:i am currently working on some changes adding more territs adding hobgoblin hutsbut i was wondering if maybe i should incorporate "Gwyn ap Nudd" a welsh goblin tribe leader as well I'll probably be changing the tribe names to the main sub types. Knockers(welsh and cornish folklore) trows(scottish folklore) spriggans (english) and the phooka(irish) or maybe kobolt(german) but i think that it would be best for the first four mentioned if i do incorporate "Gwyn ap Nudd" anythoughts

The Goblin title makes me want to get my eyes checked, it is so blurry, tune it down.i'll try to tone it down it (i tried to tune it down but the e flat didn't look as good)I kind of like the slime affect but I would like to see it be a slime affect throughout, not just in the landscape, add it to all parts.i was not going for a slime effect so i'm not going to add slime to everything

I believe a symbol is hiding below one of those mountains, I would reveal itmaybe you should get your eyes checked cause i drew the mountains freehand and nothing is hidden it them

This map is too cool. Its source material is intentionally funny, eliciting more of Tolkien's bumbling goblins from the Hobbit than the scary hordes encountered in the constant company of orcs and things far more dark. Add to that the cutesy graphics, silly territory names, and simplistic bonus titles, and that's a funny force to be reckoned with.

Definitely go ahead with the different fonts and symbols, but try to keep the number of different fonts to a minimum, else your map looks like it is divided against itself. My personal quota for any map is at most two complementary fonts, but you can get away with 3 if you do it well.

Beyond that, here are my suggestions:Gameplay/Understandability- Avoid sideways text like it's the Black Plague. Most people are forced to cant their head sideways to read it, and you've got plenty of space left on the map to make it horizontal again.- The restriction of +1 autodeploy on the chiefs when the tribe bonus is held just isn't possible right now. Conditional autodeploy has been a long-time asked for XML feature, but we're not due for an update on that in the near future. I think it's fine if the auto-deploy is there as is, as +1 isn't much unless you hold a tribe in addition to the chief, as you intend.- Redo the bombardment explanation to be shorter and without asterisk. You don't need the asterisk, nor the second copy of the bombs.- On the Zlup, Zlurk territories, it's sometimes too blurry to tell what exactly the text is, particularly with Zlup. I had to look at it twice not to say Zlub.- The build-your-own bonus is cool, but in general, they seem too little for a 42-territory map. Perhaps add an "own all" higher bonus? Something to consider.

Graphics- Goblin looks very blurry. I doubt that's your intended effect, and when compared to most of the map's clarity it's a bit jarring.- Zip, Zlurk, Zlup, and Zuk are not centered in the bonus description up top.- The evil mine connections look very blurry as well, and it doesn't seem to fit the feel of the map.- The mountains are blurry, but somehow I think that it's appropriate for them. Maybe a little bit more clarity, but you can get away with some more blur on them than elsewhere.- The borders of the "F" and "B" continents seem much less proper than the ones elsewhere. I liked the additional color on the other continents, and maybe on these you can use a two-tone of the same general shade instead of a different color entirely.

I think that's all I have for right now, so consider your map heartily.

TaCktiX wrote:This map is too cool. Its source material is intentionally funny, eliciting more of Tolkien's bumbling goblins from the Hobbit than the scary hordes encountered in the constant company of orcs and things far more dark. Add to that the cutesy graphics, silly territory names, and simplistic bonus titles, and that's a funny force to be reckoned with.

Thanks you hit then nail on the head that is what i'm going for!

Definitely go ahead with the different fonts and symbols, but try to keep the number of different fonts to a minimum, else your map looks like it is divided against itself. My personal quota for any map is at most two complementary fonts, but you can get away with 3 if you do it well.

here's a pic of the font i will be usingthe top ones are the font that i started using on the territs i.e. scab, moog, figz, etcthe bottom two are the same font just capped and notas much as i would love to have these on the territs its too hard to read this would be extra true on the smallbut these will most likely be used for the title which i will discuss further a little lower

Beyond that, here are my suggestions:Gameplay/Understandability- Avoid sideways text like it's the Black Plague. Most people are forced to cant their head sideways to read it, and you've got plenty of space left on the map to make it horizontal again.

i totally agree it sucks turning your head is tough, but now with the more refined legend for the tribes i.e. hold "skull" bonus look this will give me alot more room

- The restriction of +1 autodeploy on the chiefs when the tribe bonus is held just isn't possible right now. Conditional autodeploy has been a long-time asked for XML feature, but we're not due for an update on that in the near future. I think it's fine if the auto-deploy is there as is, as +1 isn't much unless you hold a tribe in addition to the chief, as you intend.

is there good discussion on this if so do you know exactly where. I'll do a forum search "Conditional auto-deployment" and see what i come up with but if you know the best parts to read plz let me know

- Redo the bombardment explanation to be shorter and without asterisk. You don't need the asterisk, nor the second copy of the bombs.

gladly

- On the Zlup, Zlurk territories, it's sometimes too blurry to tell what exactly the text is, particularly with Zlup. I had to look at it twice not to say Zlub.

is it more the overlay on those names or the warpi'm just trying out different things i'll make sure all name are alot harder to misread

- The build-your-own bonus is cool, but in general, they seem too little for a 42-territory map. Perhaps add an "own all" higher bonus? Something to consider.

do you mean the bonus amount or to little amount of territs:?:but i like the idea of complete bonuses as well but with the xmlproblemi'll have to rethink a few thing in mind for bonusesi'll have a new bonuses set up on the next map updateif you meant too little territsi would have to disagree, but if adding hold all bonus would make it better then i'll add it forsure

Graphics- Goblin looks very blurry. I doubt that's your intended effect, and when compared to most of the map's clarity it's a bit jarring.- Zip, Zlurk, Zlup, and Zuk are not centered in the bonus description up top.- The evil mine connections look very blurry as well, and it doesn't seem to fit the feel of the map.- The mountains are blurry, but somehow I think that it's appropriate for them. Maybe a little bit more clarity, but you can get away with some more blur on them than elsewhere.

yes the title i have been working on what i want for the final title and so the one there is just a stand in for now but i should make a note of that on the op sorry but i'll add that now asap to get the right effect i'm going to have to do it in a vector program and i haven't used one since corel draw 6 so i'm getting used to illustratori want to make it a nice title with goblins hanging off on and around it as well i'll tone down the brightness on the one for now

i do still need to fix up the smaller mountains they are not up to par with the main ones

- The borders of the "F" and "B" continents seem much less proper than the ones elsewhere. I liked the additional color on the other continents, and maybe on these you can use a two-tone of the same general shade instead of a different color entirely.

i'm terribly sorry but this confuses mebut i'll answer it the best i canyes the border looks funny on the Fangs and Bloods mainly the Bloods i think looks terrible the more i look at it i belive it was to do to the blending option the color layer for that tribe is set on but i think i am going to start that area's land over again and and see where i messed it upas for the Fangs i think the different flow of the borders lines doesn't match the rest as much due to the Snaking look where the others are a simpler flow this is also true with the Bloods borders and i'll try changing them to be more like the flowing border of the Muds and Skulls tribal regions

shades are one of my Nemesis i have a very bad colourblindnessand one shade could be a total different color for me or exactly the samei cant see rainbows in the sky but i can see more colours in northern lights then most doand as a colourblind person having all the colours as they are now it makes the different tribal grounds stand out at first glance making it easy to tell them apartthis being said with my eyes i think that the colours used on the Fangs and Bloods suits it wellas a redo bloods tribal grounds texture and colour as i mentioned i'll try and not make it as yellow but the brown i used on fangs i want to keep i like how it looks with the other colours but the land is a little flat so i could work on that and see if it improves it at all

i hope thats what you mean if not could you explain better or show me colour examples

TaCktiX wrote:.

i hope i defended myself well enough since i can't see my white dice

thank you very much for your criticisms and suggestions the helps me immensely edit:: sorry for the novel

Danyael wrote:i hope i defended myself well enough since i can't see my white dice

There is no defense against my attacks. Not even double 6's.

thank you very much for your criticisms and suggestions the helps me immensely edit:: sorry for the novel

You're quite welcome, and do NOT apologize for a novel. It means you're putting serious thought into this map and how it should look, especially in light of feedback. You will write plenty of novels before this map is done, so get used to it and be happy when you post up a wall of text.

This looks good. The biggest thing I find unintuitive is the reinforcements. It appears as if you need to hold 7 of the mud symbols to get the bonus, when there are only 4 of the symbols on the map, along with all the other symbols. I'd recommend either making all the territories have the symbols, or none of them and making a different way to show the territories.

Also, you have to be careful with bonuses that are just holding a certain number of territories from within a large group. This can skew the tide towards whoever starts first, especially in games with 2 or 3 players.

Things change/fixedmade all mountains more similarfixed boarders to to give better overall lookembossed forest to give it a better lookfinished all names icon comboredid legendrenamed gatesmoved around chiefs and changed how they attack and made them separate territadded neutral start numbers on gatesmoved around some names and army circlesmade a quick title(this is not the final title look still working on that)and other little changes

To Domake better titlework on the icon and entrance of evil minemake better goblin chiefs?make 3 more hobgoblin huts and figure out gameplay ideas for these or get rid of it all togethermake legend more eye friendlymoves around army circles *chiefs*Discussion topicsas there was lots to due with this update it took a whilei still want to have the huts but no sure how i can incorporate them in any ideas

edit :: added things to todo list

Last edited by Danyael on Fri May 15, 2009 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

I still say the legend needs some work on, it was quite painful to look at straight away, perhaps a box could be drawn around it to separate it from the map and confuse people.

Also, with the chiefs, perhaps the circles could be within the territories they are linked to, because at the moment it is unclear as to the direct attack routes, especially with the one in the bottom left.

nagerous wrote:I still say the legend needs some work on, it was quite painful to look at straight away, perhaps a box could be drawn around it to separate it from the map and confuse people.

Also, with the chiefs, perhaps the circles could be within the territories they are linked to, because at the moment it is unclear as to the direct attack routes, especially with the one in the bottom left.

sure thing i'll work on making the legend look better i was thinking vine outline to box it off and a different color then black behind it so its not as hard on the eyes

Things change/fixedworked on mountains legend i made it strong so not an eye soremoved around chiefs and changed how they attack and made them separate territadded neutral start numbers on gatesmoved around some names and army circlestitleand other little changes

To Dofinish working on the icon and entrance of evil minemake better goblin chiefs?finish making a mushroom patch on myz that fungi can one way attack

i have decided that i'll just have the one hut and i will make a mushroom patch on myz and then i'll put on the legened that fungi can one way attack myz any thoughts on this?as well i'm working on the look for the evil mine as you can see the tracks and entrace are gone and i'll be redoing those and the icon in the legend

Really good update, the legend is much more understandable and all the graphics are improved.

Graphics- The title looks good, but on the R, the dripping slime is a little out of proportion with the rest of the letters. Consider keeping the slime only on the top of the R, with a slight drip over the curve and stem (if that makes sense).- The Skulls and Fangs are far too small on map to be obviously understood. Perhaps consider a different symbol (like a single Fang) to allow for the symbols to look as good as the Bloods and Muds (though the Mud needs to stick out from under the text a bit better. You can put the symbol just about anywhere, and not just underneath the letter).- The chiefs could use some improving. They're good, but as the rest of the map is improving they look "behind." Definitely look into improving them as you've noted as a possible To Do.

Gameplay- I think that there needs to be more than one tier of bonus for all the tribes. Make it more like Uniting the tribe bit by bit than a generic "aha, I now have all the power!" at a blockoff point. As it stands, it's either an easy two bonuses (Fangs, Bloods), or a really sweet bonus with a good drop (Muds, Skulls). Perhaps have a minimum territory cutoff (the 3-territory is a good one), and have built bonuses from there on up for each section. (+1 for 3, +2 for 4, +3 for 5, etc.)- To avoid a really sweet freebie bonus drop in 1v1 games (big problem we've been running into with a lot of recent maps), I would look into either having some default neutrals, or requiring the chief to be held to gain a tribe bonus, and have them neutral.- The description of the Chief attack routes (and adjacent territory) can be confusing. How about "the territory they are in" or something like that, as strictly speaking, the chief isn't adjacent.- The Gates description of attack routes is misleading. I assume the two pairs can attack each other, but it looks like it's merely one-way. Also, the bonus is way too high. Sure they technically have to defend against 7 territories, but with them starting neutral they'll get conquered over in expanding empires. Building that into a nearly-freebie +5 would be something to avoid. Their mobility alone is really good, so consider dropping it to a +2 or +3.

Things are coming along nicely on this map, it's a shame I have to make sure it got.

TaCktiX wrote:Really good update, the legend is much more understandable and all the graphics are improved.

Thanks

Graphics- The title looks good, but on the R, the dripping slime is a little out of proportion with the rest of the letters. Consider keeping the slime only on the top of the R, with a slight drip over the curve and stem (if that makes sense).- The Skulls and Fangs are far too small on map to be obviously understood. Perhaps consider a different symbol (like a single Fang) to allow for the symbols to look as good as the Bloods and Muds (though the Mud needs to stick out from under the text a bit better. You can put the symbol just about anywhere, and not just underneath the letter).- The chiefs could use some improving. They're good, but as the rest of the map is improving they look "behind." Definitely look into improving them as you've noted as a possible To Do.

The try that with the title. (its not really slime its just the difference colour from the grass behind it but it does have a slime look in a way)

When i first started with the symbols a single fang looked off which is why i made it a shield but yes i agree both skull and fang symbol are not as nice as the muds and bloods i'll work on a few different symbols. I'll also move them around from the names but i kinda like how it looks but function is more important then looks.As for the chiefs i'm working on better ones i might keep the muds chief he cracks me up but i'll draw up a bunch for people to look at and maybe decide with a poll one which ones to usei think the tree impassables look out of place and will be changing those as well you think thats a good idea

Gameplay- I think that there needs to be more than one tier of bonus for all the tribes. Make it more like Uniting the tribe bit by bit than a generic "aha, I now have all the power!" at a blockoff point. As it stands, it's either an easy two bonuses (Fangs, Bloods), or a really sweet bonus with a good drop (Muds, Skulls). Perhaps have a minimum territory cutoff (the 3-territory is a good one), and have built bonuses from there on up for each section. (+1 for 3, +2 for 4, +3 for 5, etc.)- To avoid a really sweet freebie bonus drop in 1v1 games (big problem we've been running into with a lot of recent maps), I would look into either having some default neutrals, or requiring the chief to be held to gain a tribe bonus, and have them neutral.- The description of the Chief attack routes (and adjacent territory) can be confusing. How about "the territory they are in" or something like that, as strictly speaking, the chief isn't adjacent.- The Gates description of attack routes is misleading. I assume the two pairs can attack each other, but it looks like it's merely one-way. Also, the bonus is way too high. Sure they technically have to defend against 7 territories, but with them starting neutral they'll get conquered over in expanding empires. Building that into a nearly-freebie +5 would be something to avoid. Their mobility alone is really good, so consider dropping it to a +2 or +3.

yes I'll play with your bonus ideas if any one else wants to add to this idea please.using the chief to obtain the bonus and making them neutral would be a good way to stop a first drop bonus but i think that would only be good if the chiefs were more centralized because i can see countless times people would just suicide thru the chiefs to eliminate the tribe bonus but maybe thats a good thing.The gate connection are zip connects to zap(evilmine) and zoop connects to zoom (dark portal). As it stands the evil mine connections don't connect to the dark portal in other words zoop or zoom cannot attack zip or zap or vice versamaybe i need to word it on the legend but i thought it would be clear any suggestions on doing this. Maybe they should all connect? as for the bonus i went with 5 due to the fact evil mine connections are separate then the dark portal making it a lot harder to holdI guess this is important to figure out the best way to go with the gate connections i'll need comments on this for sure.

TaCktiX wrote:- I think that there needs to be more than one tier of bonus for all the tribes. Make it more like Uniting the tribe bit by bit than a generic "aha, I now have all the power!" at a blockoff point. As it stands, it's either an easy two bonuses (Fangs, Bloods), or a really sweet bonus with a good drop (Muds, Skulls). Perhaps have a minimum territory cutoff (the 3-territory is a good one), and have built bonuses from there on up for each section. (+1 for 3, +2 for 4, +3 for 5, etc.)

-What is that pink blob next to Muck?-I do realise that you are colourblind, but it may be appropiate to make the bonus information providerer things according to the colour;

Bloods ; RedFangs ; Brown etc.

-It looks like the Bloods chief is carrying a sack, not next to a puddle of blood.-The fangs look INCREDIBLY creepy.

I'll edit in more later, but I'm very busy!

MrBenn wrote:On an a side-note, as a child I used to have a recurring nightmare about being chased round a supermarket by a crocodile pushing a shopping trolley and wearing an "I ♥ Shopping" t-shirt...