Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Wish I didn't have mine, my whole forearm is covered. My spiritual father has told me it's a sin but I did it before I was Orthodox. We are to be a light for non-Christians and I keep my tattoo covered at all times (even in the summer I wear long sleeve shirts) because I don't want others to fall into the sin of judgement because of something stupid I did in my youth. It's going to be a burden to me to never let anyone see it when I become a monk (God willing). I even asked my spiritual father if I should get it removed with a lazer but he told me "You are going to be worm food, do you want to spend thousands of dollars on their dinner?"

I want to follow all the commandments of God, and it's clear about not getting tattoos.

That is probably the most awesome quote I have read in quite some time.

There's a traditional form of tattooing done in Croatian Roman Catholic areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm not sure if any Orthodox Christians in that area also did this. But, the Catholic Slavs did it to try to protect their children from being taken by the Ottoman Muslims to be sent off to Turkey, and the women from being raped by the Ottomans. And, to show that they were Christian if they were forced to convert to Islam.

I have a white tattoo on my wrist. Just one word "Pray". It isn't very obvious but it is a constant reminder to myself. I am coming from a Roman Catholic past and have been corresponding with a Priest in another town. There are no churches where we live.

I've been wondering how to proceed with the cross on my left arm, which I'd like to have other similarly religious art with. I'm not really that big on praying hands and depictions of (saintly) people and all that, so I'm most likely just going to incorporate some other crosses, like...

...with some kind of background. I'm sort of locked in to some extent at this point by the size, shape, placement, etc. of the cross I already have.

Got some more done. Still working on it. Making progress. Sort of. Things got messed up as well. Meh. General idea, with more to be added later...

Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and are not our own to do with as we please. It was purchased at a great price, namely the sacrifice of the only begotten Son of God. We are to give glory to God with our bodies. Therefore, when God forbids tattoos or body piercing in the old testament, for us to believe in the trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we must consider that it doesn't matter what year in modern times this is to God. Times may change and people may change, but to God the Father, Son Or Holy Spirit....He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

There's a traditional form of tattooing done in Croatian Roman Catholic areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm not sure if any Orthodox Christians in that area also did this. But, the Catholic Slavs did it to try to protect their children from being taken by the Ottoman Muslims to be sent off to Turkey, and the women from being raped by the Ottomans. And, to show that they were Christian if they were forced to convert to Islam.

They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert. I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian". Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and are not our own to do with as we please. It was purchased at a great price, namely the sacrifice of the only begotten Son of God. We are to give glory to God with our bodies. Therefore, when God forbids tattoos or body piercing in the old testament, for us to believe in the trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we must consider that it doesn't matter what year in modern times this is to God. Times may change and people may change, but to God the Father, Son Or Holy Spirit....He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Leviticus 19:28 states this plainly.

Good point. That is why I don't wear clothes and shamefully attempt to cover God's temple.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert. I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian". Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

"God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to God.""It doesn't matter if its in the bible.""Tattoos are okay." ?

This isn't the EO church I remember.

I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to Yesh""It isn't actually in the Bible""I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ? I cited the scripture.

Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote

Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote

Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert. I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian". Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack. The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven. The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution. You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like". No I don't know what it's like. OK. All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.

"God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to God.""It doesn't matter if its in the bible.""Tattoos are okay." ?

This isn't the EO church I remember.

I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to Yesh""It isn't actually in the Bible""I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ? I cited the scripture.

Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote

Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote

Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin."Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right? Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them". (but otherwise all things CAN be clean). Do you eat dog? Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations. In Vietnam, people eat dog. They don't see it as dirty of gross. It's clean to them. Unclean to most of us.... Same with circumcision. The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

"God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to God.""It doesn't matter if its in the bible.""Tattoos are okay." ?

This isn't the EO church I remember.

I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to Yesh""It isn't actually in the Bible""I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ? I cited the scripture.

Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote

Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote

Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin."Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right? Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them". (but otherwise all things CAN be clean). Do you eat dog? Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations. In Vietnam, people eat dog. They don't see it as dirty of gross. It's clean to them. Unclean to most of us.... Same with circumcision. The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.

Having seen the figure of the Cross in the heavens, and like Paul not having received his call from men, O Lord, Your apostle among rulers, the Emperor Constantine, has been set by Your hand as ruler over the Imperial City that he preserved in peace for many years, through the prayers of the Theotokos, O only lover of mankind.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert. I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian". Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack. The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven. The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution. You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like". No I don't know what it's like. OK. All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.

A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another, as I have loved you. (Jn. 13:34)

Knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

Logged

My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible houseI looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

"God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to God.""It doesn't matter if its in the bible.""Tattoos are okay." ?

This isn't the EO church I remember.

I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to Yesh""It isn't actually in the Bible""I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ? I cited the scripture.

Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote

Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote

Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin."Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right? Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them". (but otherwise all things CAN be clean). Do you eat dog? Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations. In Vietnam, people eat dog. They don't see it as dirty of gross. It's clean to them. Unclean to most of us.... Same with circumcision. The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

What does eating dog in Vietnam have to do with anything?

Logged

My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible houseI looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert. I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian". Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack. The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven. The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution. You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like". No I don't know what it's like. OK. All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.

All praise and glory be to YIM, who rightly divides the word of truth and exemplifies it.

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.2 Peter 3:16 The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them". (but otherwise all things CAN be clean). Do you eat dog? Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations. In Vietnam, people eat dog. They don't see it as dirty of gross. It's clean to them. Unclean to most of us.... Same with circumcision. The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

"God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to God.""It doesn't matter if its in the bible.""Tattoos are okay." ?

This isn't the EO church I remember.

I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos.""We don't have to listen to Yesh""It isn't actually in the Bible""I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ? I cited the scripture.

Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote

Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote

Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin."Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right? Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them". (but otherwise all things CAN be clean). Do you eat dog? Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations. In Vietnam, people eat dog. They don't see it as dirty of gross. It's clean to them. Unclean to most of us.... Same with circumcision. The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.

Great example. YES we watch for animals to not inbreed. It weakens them, often creates genetic funkiness, and causes problems. It's considered a no-no, and you can't register inbred animals. While it is not the "law", it's good not to do it. The benefits of following the law in this matter is great. We can see a full reasoning behind this.

A body, being the temple, we should see it the same way. This doesn't compare with a beard - they grow back. Tats are rather permanent (unless you are a more or less wealthier person who can have them removed).

They should never be forced to convert to Islam, as they should not convert. I know its easy to say, but a tattoo would not "keep them Christian". Their confession of faith be in pain or death would do this.

And you're speaking from all of your first-hand experience as a Christian minority in an Islamic country where you fear that your children could be kidnapped, forcibly converted, and raised Muslim in a Muslim family at any time? If only they had you as their example, they wouldn't even need that Jesus guy.

No, you are speaking from an angle of attack. The Jesus clearly tells us that whoever denies Christ he will deny us before his father in heaven. The bible clearly tells us not to get tattoos.

See all you are doing is demonizing what I said because I don't have experience in religious persecution. You are coming at me from an angle of "like you know what its like". No I don't know what it's like. OK. All I have is what the bible tells me, and all I see is people disobeying the commands of the bible in order to replace the chance of their denial of Christ under torture and death.... At which point, if they deny, I don't see what good a tattoo will do them anyway.

So ultimately, you have no point - other than to negate the fact I've never been persecuted (under torture/death) for religious reasons.

I will tell you, even if I was, I would never believe a tattoo would save me if I denied God.

A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another, as I have loved you. (Jn. 13:34)

Knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

As I said, it is a gray area, not black or white.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Romans 7:12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Romans 7:14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Romans 7:16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

1 John 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

***Remember not always when Paul speaks of "law" does he refer to the law of the OT (Torah). Such as in Romans 7:25 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

Paul is difficult to understand. While I agree that the law is not necessary for salvation, it's a good idea to follow the law. Do you really think God wants tattoos on your body? Think about it.

For me the law is a gray area. Clearly many New Testament situations involved the law (Torah). It seems more flexible though, so all gentiles could be brought to God. Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.