JHerr wrote:
What's the point of any thread really? In fact I think most threads these days are just glort bait

The point was there are just too many challenges for me to make this a full time job: competition, clients expectation and demand, and technology make the entry to photography pretty accessible to anyone to anyone who is willing to learn.

level1photog wrote:
The point was there are just too many challenges for me to make this a full time job: competition, clients expectation and demand

These are the reasons why it IS a full time job. To overcome these, you actually have to have the time to think about these things and address them. Part time you're juggling your brain between two different worlds. I'm not saying it's easy, but it is highly rewarding.

I do agree that technology makes it easier to learn photography--but that's not the end-all of a successful photography business.

friscoron wrote:
I don't think Tony said he had mastered his craft yet. He's still a work in progress.

lol Ron... in the concurrent thread "How to be a wedding photographer" I was tempted to post:

Well, 1) suddenly become an identical or fraternal twin of Tony's; 2) have his parents raise you; and 3) expose you to all the formative experiences he went through; then 4) try like heck to find an Amy.

dhp_sf wrote:
These are the reasons why it IS a full time job. To overcome these, you actually have to have the time to think about these things and address them. Part time you're juggling your brain between two different worlds.

As I interpret Duy's point, he also grazes a truth we rarely discuss.

Granted, part timers may cut tons of business corners but for those that try to dot their i's and cross their t's, all that overhead must be covered by far fewer revenue generating hours. From that perspective, full timer's enjoy significant economies of scale because the baseline/overhead hours and expenses a proper business requires are amortized over many more billable hours.

I think bring a part time give you alot of advantages such as less overhead, no medical insurance, no retirement, no mortgage to worry about. They are more likely to make purchases that result in better image quality. They may also have more time dedicated to education because they don't need to be book every weekend. Once they reach a level, they can provide similar quality at a much more competitive price. I don't think photography is such a mystery as it once was or have a huge barrier to entry especially with all the great education available, affordable gears (camera, lens and lighting equipment) and the internet that allow alot of people to see your works.
I saw on reddit that there are 3500 wedding photographer in LA/OC area listed on wedding wire. This does not include photography business probably that isn't listed. nolaguy wrote:
As I interpret Duy's point, he also grazes a truth we rarely discuss.

Granted, part timers may cut tons of business corners but for those that try to dot their i's and cross their t's, all that overhead must be covered by far fewer revenue generating hours. From that perspective, full timer's enjoy significant economies of scale because the baseline/overhead hours and expenses a proper business requires are amortized over many more billable hours.

level1photog wrote:
I think bring a part time give you alot of advantages such as less overhead, no medical insurance, no retirement, no mortgage to worry about. They are more likely to make purchases that result in better image quality. They may also have more time dedicated to education because they don't need to be book every weekend. Once they reach a level, they can provide similar quality at a much more competitive price. I don't think photography is such a mystery as it once was or have a huge barrier to entry especially with all the great education available, affordable gears (camera, lens and lighting equipment) and the internet that allow alot of people to see your works.
I saw on reddit that there are 3500 wedding photographer in LA/OC area listed on wedding wire. This does not include photography business probably that isn't listed....Show more →

I'm convinced. Part time it is.

Or. Well. Maybe not.

What you're describing is a subsidized business. Chrysler in the 80's. Amtrak in well, forever. Bailouts.

That's fine if you wish for one of your corporations - your day job - to finance your other subsidiary, photography, but it would be less than, umm, professional, to pretend it's not a robbing of resources from one entity to enable another. It's usurping and reallocating the balance sheets.

That's not business. That's a psuedo-business you can afford to lose money on. No matter that you can afford it. Without allocating proper, accurate measures of overhead and the cost of doing business because you can simply borrow from the coffers of the day job, it's a hobby that offsets a portion of its cost with occasional measures of income that feel more profitable than they are because it's all propped up by other income - or perhaps more accurately, fewer normal expenses as those are heavily supplemented by revenue unrelated to the business itself.

Not a problem. It's your life, your money, you can channel it off to misc endeavors as you wish.

Yup Sony A7R II with Eye AF and EVF make it so make easier to learn what you are doing wrong and right. It's going to be affordable in a couple more years as technology advances. Workshops, youtube, and alot of other learning avenue from master photographers is their respective field allow you to get a better education than someone at a photography school. I charge alot right now because I value my time with almost very small overhead, but there are going to be alot of other people who gain that same skills who can easily charge very competitive price with some entry & affordable full frame camera ,lens, and lighting equipment while providing great images.

nolaguy wrote:
I agree too, Duy.

The immediate "feedback" available with every single flippin shot is astonishing. Very few laboratory or real world environments allow such instantaneous learning opportunities.

But I'd add that technology also makes it easier to not learn photography.

level1photog wrote:
Yup Sony A7R II with Eye AF and EVF make it so make easier to learn what you are doing wrong and right. It's going to be affordable in a couple more years as technology advances. Workshops, youtube, and alot of other learning avenue from master photographers is their respective field allow you to get a better education than someone at a photography school. I charge alot right now because I value my time with almost very small overhead, but there are going to be alot of other people who gain that same skills who can easily charge very competitive price with some entry & affordable full frame camera ,lens, and lighting equipment while providing great images.

I can't think of anyone who says "i want to stay at the bottom of the market." By the time people acquire both the business and photography skills, I can guarantee you they are hungry to charge more and more.

I didn't say that. I want to charge as much as I can. For a part timer, they can afford to charge slightly less than their competitors, be more price competitive because it's mostly net profit since they don't have alot of overhead.

dhp_sf wrote:
I can't think of anyone who says "i want to stay at the bottom of the market." By the time people acquire both the business and photography skills, I can guarantee you they are hungry to charge more and more.

Price is a factor when you have two similar quality services. You don't think part timer capable of producing good photography compared to full timer if not more so while providing good service and experience while being more affordable? I've seen some full timers who are more interested in double booking, booking every weekend, with horrible communication skills, nickle and dime, use natural light, and no integrity. Just like camera gears. I bought Godox stuff even though profoto and broncholor stuff is available. I also own third party lens when Canon 11-24 is so expensive. You underestimate those who does it part time who have the will to learn, personality, and business acumen to do it even better than the full time professional. Some full timer shouldn't be call professional photographer to begin with the quality and service they provide.

dhp_sf wrote:
Price is only part of the factor when people make their decisions. Think about how many times you've bought something even though there's a cheaper alternative.

level1photog wrote:
Price is a factor when you have two similar quality services. You don't think part timer capable of producing good photography compared to full timer if not more so while providing good service and experience while being more affordable? I've seen some full timers who are more interested in double booking, booking every weekend, with horrible communication skills, nickle and dime, use natural light, and no integrity. Just like camera gears. I bought Godox stuff even though profoto and broncholor stuff is available. I also own third party lens when Canon 11-24 is so expensive. You underestimate those who does it part time who have the will to learn, personality, and business acumen to do it even better than the full time professional. Some full timer shouldn't be call professional photographer to begin with the quality and service they provide.

I don't think a part-timer is capable of doing that as frequently as a full timer can. As a full timer, I can handle 30 weddings easily in a year, be incredibly responsive with ALL 30 couples, build a client base by exposing my work to 30 weddings worth of guests, friends and families. As a part timer, it would be difficult to scale that much and you'd be overworked since you're doing that plus a day job.

You don't need to invest in the highest end gear to generate the highest end work. Your clients certainly don't care what kind of equipment you're using so long as it (along with the photographer) can produce the work you're advertising. I'm not encouraging you to quit your job and go full time. I'm just saying that it's certainly not impossible for those who really want it. It just takes commitment and hard work and a broader range of thinking than just photo output and pricepoint.

dhp_sf wrote:
You don't need to invest in the highest end gear to generate the highest end work. Your clients certainly don't care what kind of equipment you're using so long as it (along with the photographer) can produce the work you're advertising. I'm not encouraging you to quit your job and go full time. I'm just saying that it's certainly not impossible for those who really want it. It just takes commitment and hard work and a broader range of thinking than just photo output and price point.

Hallelujah!

I have done endless things in my life that I shouldn't have been able to but I accomplished because I was hungry and single minded enough to make it happen.

The other thing was, either no one told me I couldn't do it or if they did, I never listened and did it anyway.
Probably more of the latter that than anything else.

You can only go so far as a part timer. At some point you will hit a wall. You just will. There is simply not enough time or energy to really compete with someone who is devoting their full energy to it. Your other commitments will hold you back.

Technology has made it easy to go from 0 to adequate. But to really excel at this and separate yourself and rise to the upper tier in a competitive market takes lots of experience. That means being full-time.

level1photog wrote:
Price is a factor when you have two similar quality services. You don't think part timer capable of producing good photography compared to full timer if not more so while providing good service and experience while being more affordable? ......

Just like camera gears. I bought Godox stuff even though profoto and broncholor stuff is available. I also own third party lens when Canon 11-24 is so expensive.

Nope. Not the same comparison. Godox stuff is not in the same league as Profoto or Broncholor. Yes you may still be able to produce similar results with the gear, but you can't say people buy Godox because other than price it is the same as Profoto.

Also..... if you are producing as good or better photography than a full timer..... why would you not charge MORE than them then. That's just leaving money on the table.

I am already charging more than them. 5-6k is definitely not cheap and that's without album. It is a lot in my area that are saturated. Alot of full timer only charge 2-2500 and include the entire farm. Of course I want to charge more but that requires me getting better at marketing, branding and being more established. Just because you are good doesn't mean you charge whatever amount. It's up to whatever the market will bear. If I can get onto some nice venue prefer vendors list, working with high end wedding planners, or have too much demand, I will increase my price. Since I don't have alot overhead, it's probably net me more profit than most of them already and that's including those who charge a little bit more than me.

Regarding Godox, I said similiar not same. Profoto, Otus lens, Bronchololor are overpriced to me and only certain photographers can afford them for high end projects. When it comes to what I need and use for, most people won't be able to tell the difference between my L lens and Godox and cheap entry FF camera. If this is a business, why do I need to pay for high end stuff without a huge difference in quality? Clients will be price conscious unless they are super wealthy. Most of the time, they will go with someone us offer them better package with similar quality. I don't mind leaving some money on the table to get book more regularly. It's already a lot of money.

Jason Ferber wrote:
Nope. Not the same comparison. Godox stuff is not in the same league as Profoto or Broncholor. Yes you may still be able to produce similar results with the gear, but you can't say people buy Godox because other than price it is the same as Profoto.

Also..... if you are producing as good or better photography than a full timer..... why would you not charge MORE than them then. That's just leaving money on the table.