Gar Smith: Could you talk a little about your
family upbringing and how that brought you to your decision to refuse to pay
federal taxes. I understand that your father was a minister.

Julia Butterfly Hill: Yes, my father was a
traveling preacher. He and my mother were both raised Catholic and converted
to Baptist and later became nondenominational so I was raised in a
nondenominational evangelical upbringing. My father always taught from a
place of “How does this book known as the Bible apply to who we are today?”
He was really about teaching what it means to be a loving, committed, active
spiritual person in the world.

That upbringing, I feel, has been very core to who I am because it has really
become my foundation. How do I keep a core sense of the sacred as my
foundation in everything I do and everything that I say?

GS: A lot of us grew up with that and it’s not
just a core feeling that we share as a family value but it’s something we
think of as a core set of beliefs that used to apply to this country as a
nation. I’d like to hope that we could find our way back to that.

Two years ago, you stood on the steps of the
Federal Building and issued your formal public statement about why you were
resisting taxes — joining people like Joan Baez, Noam Chomsky and others.
What were the repercussions of that act?

JB: I have to say I “redirect” my taxes rather
than “resisting” my taxes. Because I actually take the money that the
IRS says
goes to them and I give it to the places where our taxes should be
going. And in my letter to the
IRS I
said: “I’m not refusing to pay my taxes. I’m actually paying them but I’m
paying them where they belong because you refuse to do so.” They are not
directing our money where it should be going, they are being horrific
stewards of that money.

If we had an investment with a fund-management system and they were doing a
terrible job of investing our funds, we would pull those funds and re-invest
them with a management fund that was stewarding our money properly. Yet, for
some reason, we don’t do that with our taxes and with the
IRS and
with our government. So I said, “Well, I’m sorry. You’re not managing these
funds appropriately and you’re not balancing them wisely and you’re not
investing them properly, so I’m going to have to take this money from you and
invest it myself.

GS: This is an argument that supports not just
environmentalists and pacifists, but anybody with good business sense should
not be investing in this “company.”

JB: That’s right! I majored in business in
college and so I’m always looking at where is the wise investment — in time,
in energy and monetary resources. What is the smartest investment? And anyone
who is a smart businessperson should look at how much is being invested in
our government and where that is actually being spent. I don’t think anyone
but a select few people will think that the rate of return on that currently
is a wise investment.

GS: What local organizations are you giving money
to? How does that happen?

JB: I have learned so much in collaboration with
War Resisters network. The People’s Life Fund is one of the ways
people can give money to help a myriad of causes (as well as help people who
suffer negative responses from the government for taking this step of
conscience and redirecting their taxes). I’ve directed this money to all the
places where our money should be going — after school, arts and cultural
programs, community gardens. A huge portion of my funds (not only from my
“redirection” but also from funds that I raise speaking at colleges) goes to
indigenous peoples in this country. All of the wealth in this country is
built on what was stolen from the original peoples and then through slavery.
I look to redirecting money back to where our money comes from — from human
and planetary resources. So a large portion has gone to support native
peoples’ subsistence, sovereignty and spirituality. I’ve redirected money
into the Alternatives to Incarceration Program. I believe our
prison-industrial complex is clear-cutting our diversity and clear-cutting
our youth and our humanity. That’s a big passion of mine.

GS: I was at a War Resisters League meeting a
couple of weeks ago at the St.
Martin de Porres food kitchen in San Francisco and one of the startling
statements that cropped up at the meeting was that at least 25 percent of
American people don’t pay taxes — legally. And somebody asked: “Does that
include corporations?” Well, of course not: the figure is much higher for
corporations. It is possible to legally not pay taxes by using available
deductions and small-business options. Are you trying to use any of those
legal strategies or is this an outright redirection of tax money?

JB: I’m currently not employing the various forms
of legal ways of tax [resistance] because, for me, it was important to take
the conscious, conscientious, political stand. Not just to work within the
system but to say that the system is inherently flawed and highly
destructive. It was absolutely crucial that I also take a stand outside that
system. It’s a devastated system and, just as we look at a devastated
ecosystem and think about how to restore it, the same thing applies with this
[tax] system. That’s part of why I’ve chosen to take this very public,
political stand …

Taxes are not inherently evil. When we come together as a community and
collectively pool our resources, the good we can do is absolutely inspiring.
On the other hand, the devastation we can wreak upon the planet and its
people is horrific. And currently [the
U.S. tax] system is
doing that. Because of that, it is absolutely crucial that more and
more of us take the political stand and say it’s time to transform the system.

GS: Has your public statement inspired others to
consider this as a moral option?

JB: It’s been incredible how many people have
come out of the most surprising places saying “I want to know more about
this! Is it safe to do? Is it not safe to do?” [There are] organizations like
War Resisters and the network of
the war tax resistance community I can direct people to. I became well-known
for living in a tree for over two years, but that tree-sit — although it was
the longest in history — was only able to be that tree-sit because of
wonderful history of a movement that built it to a place where we could carry
out an action like that.

It’s exactly the same with [the war-tax resistance] movement. For over 30
years, the war-resistance community has been saying “Here’s the plethora, the
rainbow, of information. You can sit with that information and find
out what most resonates for you and cultivate from that list a way for you to
take your next step.” It’s great to have that network to be able to direct
people into.

GS: Now for a question about the response from
the other side of the spectrum. How has the government responded?

JB: Well, I knew when I took this action that the
government was going to do one of two things: they were either going to come
down quick and hard or they were going to ignore me. And I felt the same
would probably happen within the media. The media pretty much ignored me. The
IRS
responded very, very quickly.

My lawyer asked me: “What did you do to upset them? They never respond that
quickly? What did you do?” And I said, “I think it’s partly because of who I
am and partly because of the letter I wrote.” He got back to me and said:
“Yes, you’re right. I asked them: you’re right.”

At this point, I’ve gotten through the first round of hearings. They’ve gone
well. It’s “in the process.” In this process, anything can happen. There can
be compromises that are reached; there can be an endless amount of paperwork
that never turns into anything at all (just back-and-forth paperwork and
lawyers talking to each other); or there can be a mandate into court.

It’s been a joy for me. Every time I see another newspaper headline about yet
more war and devastation happening, there’s such a joy for me — even being
caught in the “process” right now, as noxious and time-consuming as that can
be. There is such a sense of liberation and joy every time I see one of those
headlines and know that I can say: “I am not contributing to that. I’m
contributing to a healthy world and a happy planet and a world that
works for all.”

A little bit of headache and some legal fees and whatever may come it’s
absolutely worth it to me every time I walk down the street and I’m
able to say: “I’m contributing to a different headline.”

GS: The great American pacifist
A.J. Muste once said: “People are drafted
through the Selective Service; money is drafted through the Internal Revenue
Service.” So, you’ve “liberated” your money (or, at least it’s standing its
own — against the assault of a government that would take it hostage). What
are your thoughts about the environmental rationale for refusing taxes and,
also, the spiritual nature of it?

JB: I was in [the tree I named] Luna when the
war, under the Clinton administration, broke out in Yugoslavia. I was praying
on how to help because I felt it so deeply. I’m that kind of person: I feel
the interconnection of issues very deeply and very profoundly. I’m not just
an “environmentalist.” I’m not just a “joyous vegan.” I’m not just a “war-tax
redirector.” I’m not these segments. I’m about the interconnection.

And as I was praying I saw a bulls-eye. At that time [in Yugoslavia], people
were running out on bridges with bulls-eyes painted on their shirts because
their communities were being targeted by the
U.S. and other
[NATO]
countries. What the people were saying is: “Hey, you’re turning us into
targets. This isn’t some war on some evil dictator.”

The answer that came to me is that, in the war of politics, power and profit,
all of life becomes a target. And what people need to realize is that [given]
where our taxes are currently going, we are actually supporting an
unprecedented war on the planet and all of the life on it — the human life,
the plant life, the animal life. We are a global community and this war being
perpetuated with our money, under our name if we pay taxes under our name,
under our watch, for this unprecedented war. It’s happening to the forest.
It’s happening to ecosystems across the country. It’s happening around the
world.

The devastation of Iraq! That land that is now being devastated by war under
the guise of “freedom and liberation” used to be known, in Biblical times, as
one of the most decadently rich, life-giving areas in the entire region. And
now it’s a desert wasteland because war does not discriminate — it affects
everything. And now, with our money, we’re having a war on kids, we’re having
a war on education, we’re having a war on elders, we’re having a war on
healthcare, we’re having a war on the planet and all of its life-giving
systems. We’re having a war on our global family around the world.

Every time that we pay taxes or spend a penny on anything, we’re either
voting for that war or we’re voting for peace and healing. And, if we want to
stand up and say: “Shame on the Bush administration! Shame on these
corporations! Shame! Shame! Shame!” we have to remember, as we point our
fingers at the Bush administration, that there’s three fingers pointing back
at us.

If we are not holding ourselves accountable, I don’t feel that we actually
have the right to say “Shame!” unless we include ourselves in that shame. I
would rather include ourselves in a stand — in a real stand for peace, for
healing, for justice — where we are actually living it, not just
talking about it.

Some other Picket Line entries about Julia
“Butterfly” Hill’s tax resistance:

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