pj wrote:I would teach them to be a "Commercial Pilot". Safe flying, briefings, flight planning, customer service, operations. The stuff training schools don't have time to do, at my expense.As an example there are two pilots one with 120 hours and the other say 800 + hours. The 120 hour pilot takes nearly twice as long from start up to take off and shut down, no problem safety is paramount, so bookings need to be further apart. He has trouble doing a 30 min scenic in 30 mins, so a lower hourly rate, certain helipads under certain wind conditions he cant land at. He not only has to fly safely, maintain track and height but also talk and inform passengers, use the radio and keep SAR. He has generally no idea about the paperwork side of the business. If doing a photographic job he is slower and less precise. etc... you have to have someone else available to fill in for them when the flight is above their capability level. Extra costThe point is that there are many larger companies that could employ low time pilots but couldn't be bothered to put the extra effort in, So if a bare hour pilot can get a job being paid the award. Excellent. They still need someone to guide and mentor them and not leave it up to other companies to support their pilots,( Hello cupcake). or the low time pilot can go and work for no money or a hourly rate , be expected to exceed F&D and weight limitations and teach himself , while the parent company still charges full rate for them.Just because you have a piece of paper that sais Commercial Heli Pilot . in reality they are no where near it.

Sure, I understand and appreciate all of that and I think that those are things that an employer has to accept as being their responsibility when taking on new pilots.Sadly, it seems that some employers are extremely disrespectful towards new pilots, despite the fact that the new pilot has demonstrated commitment towards his/her chosen profession by spending around $70,000 on training. They have an attitude that says, "I'm doing you worthless noobs a favour by letting you get anywhere near my helicopters. You should be paying me!" Then they'll act affronted when those pilots leave after two years/turbine endorsement/whatever.

Justice would have been a lot quicker if said pilots just walked as soon as they new they were being shafted. Soon as they worked out they weren't getting paid what some award said, and that takes a week, two at the most, hit the boss up, no change, walk. A boss can only rip you off if you let him.

And as far as the "expert advice" for pilots at the end, drivel. It tells you nothing. They need to sack the "expert".

Best advice to new pilots is always going to be "do your homework". Ask around about who is a good operator and who isn't. Find out why pilots don't stay long with a particular employer. Don't go out of your flying school with a brand new CPL(H) thinking you're going to be paid $250K a year. Be humble. Be presentable, clean clothes, clean body, shoes, have everything with you (licence, log book, medical DG certificate and any relevant qualifications). If you don't get the job, don't leave angry, you might come back. Talk to EVERYONE. We're helicopter pilots, we love nothing more than to talk about our job. 99% of us will give new pilots good advice. Above all, stick with it, well worth the effort in the long run.

hand in pants wrote:Best advice to new pilots is always going to be "do your homework". Ask around about who is a good operator and who isn't. Find out why pilots don't stay long with a particular employer. Don't go out of your flying school with a brand new CPL(H) thinking you're going to be paid $250K a year. Be humble. Be presentable, clean clothes, clean body, shoes, have everything with you (licence, log book, medical DG certificate and any relevant qualifications). If you don't get the job, don't leave angry, you might come back. Talk to EVERYONE. We're helicopter pilots, we love nothing more than to talk about our job. 99% of us will give new pilots good advice. Above all, stick with it, well worth the effort in the long run.

Very sound advice here, well written. In addition, be diligent, do your homework and get someone to proof-read your resume for both spelling and syntax. Remember that some days you drive the one with the blades on the bottom, so that other days you get to drive the one with blades on the top

hand in pants wrote:Justice would have been a lot quicker if said pilots just walked as soon as they new they were being shafted. Soon as they worked out they weren't getting paid what some award said, and that takes a week, two at the most, hit the boss up, no change, walk. A boss can only rip you off if you let him.

"Hand in pant" I think you're been a little narrow minded here. These were a couple of brand new helicopter pilots starting their first jobs, a little wet behind the ears so to say. They had just spent a considerable amount of time and effort (as we all have) getting their licences and now so badly wanted a job. I remember my first job and had never even heard of the "Pilots award" let alone know exactly how to understand it. Saying things like "walked as soon as they knew they were getting shafted" is a little quick to judge. So put your selves in their shoes, they get hired for their first job, they are told by their new chief pilot what the award is and that this is what they are getting paid....a pretty exciting moment for all new pilots, actually getting paid to do something they love!! The first mistake was trusting this guy. Now as the weeks go by an turn into months, these pilots are now starting to learn a little more about the industry, they are meeting other experienced pilots, they have found "blade slapper" and are learning all kinds of new things from here. They start to realise this "chief pilot" isn't quite the person they thought he was, the pay they are getting isn't quite what the legal minimum is, and some of the work practices the CP asks them to perform isn't quite legal either....So they resign, knowing full well they don't have the hours yet to easily walk into another job, they contact Fair Work, knowing that the CP is going to know about this, and he has a lot more contacts in the helicopter industry than they do and can easily influence possible future employment for them by spreading lies and s#!t about them. But they do it anyway because its needs to be done and this type of bullying needs to be eradicated from our industry.

So yes its easy to say "justice would be a lot quicker if said pilots walked out as soon...." but you don't know the full story, you don't know the pressures they were under, I say good on them for standing up for themselves, and hopefully more do in the future so dodgy operators like "Broome Helicopters" and the absolute vermin of a CP can be stopped once and for all of taking advantage of new pilots like these two and so many others before them.

I'm narrow minded.You wrote:These were a couple of brand new helicopter pilots starting their first jobs, a little wet behind the ears so to say. They had just spent a considerable amount of time and effort (as we all have) getting their licences and now so badly wanted a job. They didn't do any homework, took the first job offered.

I remember my first job and had never even heard of the "Pilots award" let alone know exactly how to understand it.I remember my first job too. I didn't have to walk because I was happy there.

Saying things like "walked as soon as they knew they were getting shafted" is a little quick to judge.Exactly how long did they stay and continue to get shafted?

So put your selves in their shoes, they get hired for their first job, they are told by their new chief pilot what the award is and that this is what they are getting paid....a pretty exciting moment for all new pilots, actually getting paid to do something they love!!I wouldn't put myself in their shoes, I'd have done some homework before even turning up.The first mistake was trusting this guy.No, first mistake was not finding out about the company before going there.

Now as the weeks go by an turn into months, these pilots are now starting to learn a little more about the industry, they are meeting other experienced pilots, they have found "blade slapper" and are learning all kinds of new things from here.Come on, really, months of being shafted and they are only now asking questions. Did they ask ANY questions about this industry before they went out and spent money on the licence. Surely nobody is that dumb.

They start to realise this "chief pilot" isn't quite the person they thought he was, the pay they are getting isn't quite what the legal minimum is, and some of the work practices the CP asks them to perform isn't quite legal either....They have been carrying out illegal work practices for months before they work it out. Both fail air law?? Did they go to the regulator??

So they resign, knowing full well they don't have the hours yet to easily walk into another job, they contact Fair Work, knowing that the CP is going to know about this, and he has a lot more contacts in the helicopter industry than they do and can easily influence possible future employment for them by spreading lies and s#!t about them.Again, did they go to the regulator? The industry is bigger than the lies any one Chief Pilot can spread.

But they do it anyway because its needs to be done and this type of bullying needs to be eradicated from our industry.While ever there are new pilots who don't look into what they are getting into a few operators will take advantage.

So yes its easy to say "justice would be a lot quicker if said pilots walked out as soon...." but you don't know the full story, you don't know the pressures they were under, I say good on them for standing up for themselves, and hopefully more do in the future so dodgy operators like "Broome Helicopters" and the absolute vermin of a CP can be stopped once and for all of taking advantage of new pilots like these two and so many others before them.

I do agree, good on them for finally standing up for themselves. But I've been on slapper for a few years now and every now and again this topic comes up. Some operator isn't paying the award. Everyone is up in arms as to what a horrible crime it is but no one wants to name the operator, nobody goes to the regulator about the illegal stuff.

Want to know the easiest way to rid the industry of shonks. DON"T WORK FOR THEM. Bit hard to make a crust with helicopters if no one will fly them.

So if the above makes me narrow minded, so be it. Almost all of it is common sense, a rare thing in this day and age. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

This is the only thing ill reply to "Hand in Pants" as the rest is the same, you speak like you know these guys and the situation?? How do you know this was the first job they were offered?? you are just making assumptions based on nothing....you talk about them both failing air law? I for one am happy to admit I didn't known everything the day i passed my exams and got my licence, you must be one of those genius pilots that knows everything from the start, I for one don't know everything yet and prob never will, but it is good to be open minded about learning...are you?

You mate are the reason most pilots tend to stay away from these forums because its normally just a handful of posters slagging off everybody else and boasting about things they can't possible know anyway. The purpose of this post was originally to ask advice of fellow more experienced pilots, and on the most part most of it was positive, then it was trying to show that if you do speak up when people are shafting the little guy, sometimes the little guy can win.

But you just sit behind your keyboard sewing out advice like you know it all......but to be honest i don't give a s#!t what you think, and i imagine theres a lot on here that would agree with me.

You mate are the reason most pilots tend to stay away from these forums because its normally just a handful of posters slagging off everybody else and boasting about things they can't possible know anyway. The purpose of this post was originally to ask advice of fellow more experienced pilots, and on the most part most of it was positive, then it was trying to show that if you do speak up when people are shafting the little guy, sometimes the little guy can win.

But you just sit behind your keyboard sewing out advice like you know it all......but to be honest i don't give a s#!t what you think, and i imagine theres a lot on here that would agree with me.

fattony77...HIP has actually been there and done that and has been in the industry for quite a period of time in different capacities. He retired a chief pilot for a private operator with various machines, including twins, so he has some reasonable level of experience in which to back up his statements - as controversial (though largely correct) as they may be.

He may 'sew out advice like he knows its all' because he does actually know something about this industry. Sure, there is often little diplomacy or a soft touch to his replies, but you'll very likely find that many with some experience will nod quietly in solidarity with what he has to say. At his age/vintage (rubbed shoulders with the Wright brothers ) it is likely hard to sugar coat a turd and talk it up, so to speak. Embrace what he says as there is some worth in his words, as abrasive as they may seem.

fattony77...HIP has actually been there and done that and has been in the industry for quite a period of time in different capacities. He retired a chief pilot for a private operator with various machines, including twins, so he has some reasonable level of experience in which to back up his statements - as controversial (though largely correct) as they may be.

This is kinda my point FerrariFlyer. For a bloke who you say is very experienced, why make uneducated statements, uneducated in the fact that he doesn't know the particulars of this case. He talks about them doing there homework....young, new to the industry pilots just don't know the in and outs of it all yet.....thats the reason they are called "newbies" and the reason alot of them take jobs that we wouldn't take if you were say an 2000 hour pilot. The industry has its floors, we all know it. there are dodgy operators and there are great operators, but not all pilots know it all on their first day....but eventually with experience and and the help of other experienced pilots they can hopefully work out between the two. A lot of trust is put into Chief Pilots on your first job, you trust them that they have been around a lot longer than you and all you want to do is learn....unfortunately and it seems in this case that trust was unfounded.

It just a bit rough I believe that guys with experience that you claim "HandinPants" has, that all he can do is throw the blame at these guys. Just a shame that something that should be celebrated is trodden on.

Yep, looks like they did! CASA even tweeted about it! - CASA has grounded WA air operator Broome Helicopter Services

They did go to the regulator, Thanks Worzel_Gummidge, not something easy to do when they were putting themselves squarely in the firing line.....

Okay, I'm not having a go at either the two pilots or you. Nowhere have I directly said it's their fault. I have stated the bleeding obvious, they didn't do enough/any homework. Are you going to sit there and say that these blokes were not responsible in any way for what happened? It was ALL the operators fault. I'll lay money on the fact both of these blokes will put their hands up and say they should have known better, got more information, left earlier, spoken up earlier. No, I'm not saying it's entirely their fault but they aren't without blame/responsibility.As for the illegal activities, even student pilots know what you can and can't do in a helicopter. The rules they worked under were fairly clear cut back then, as apposed to the rubbish we have now.

I have NEVER, nor will I EVER, sugar coat things. Ask those that know me, no one will be afraid to have a shot at me about me being "blunt".

And for someone who claims not to give a s#!t about what I think, you certainly have a serious bug up your nose about what I have said.