I don't think that zhuge liang is overrated. Especially the way some of you people talk about him. Zhuge Liang did great unmatched things, we can't change that. Zhuge Liang has proven to be one of the best advisors of the time if not the best. He has forseen many things (Chi Bi etc.) and his statedgies most of the time caught the enemy by surprise. I think that he should not be mocked. You can however point out his weak points (northern campaighns etc.), but not throw away his whole charecter just because of faults(which everyone had).

Cao Ren wrote:I don't think that zhuge liang is overrated. Especially the way some of you people talk about him. Zhuge Liang did great unmatched things, we can't change that. Zhuge Liang has proven to be one of the best advisors of the time if not the best. He has forseen many things (Chi Bi etc.) and his statedgies most of the time caught the enemy by surprise. I think that he should not be mocked. You can however point out his weak points (northern campaighns etc.), but not throw away his whole charecter just because of faults(which everyone had).

Zhuge Liang did not foresee Chi Bi. For the number of likely events that he "forecasted", there're lots that he missed (and of cos, he cannot be blame for that since his intelligent is not up to par..hahaha..). Firstly and most importantly, he miscalculated Liu Bei's trust in him. He miscalculated the difficulty of dual northern offensives against Wei which he proposed in the Long Zhong's plan (one from Yi Zhou/Han Zhong, the other from Jing Zhou/Wan). He miscalculated the intricacies in Sun-Liu alliance as well as underestimate the arrogant nature of Guan Yu (which he knew already eversince the red face man challenged Ma Chao even when the red face man was in charge of Jing Zhou). There're more in the later stages but I'll leave them to others.

I would say Zhuge Liang is overrated but note that when I say that, I'm not discrediting his recognised and proven abilities in civil administration and even diplomacy. Many people, esp. the Chinese, regard Zhuge Liang as the embodiment of intelligence in Chinese history which is a gross insult, IMO, to the Chinese people. Besides this, Zhuge Liang was more widely known in his forecasting feats, summoning the wind feats, etc. rather than his more down to earth abilities e.g. weapon forging, mechanics, civil skills, etc, which therefore implies that he has been overrated to be a demi-god. This can be proven by many members debating fervently about the possiblity of weather forecasting, prediction of future and other supernatural things, giving Zhuge Liang the benefits of the doubt which he doesn't deserve in the first place since all that were stories told by LGZ.

Before I end, I would like to say that Zhuge Liang has good moral values and character (I shall not dwell in those conspiracy theories). However, what's more important about this is, besides recognising his positive traits in terms of moral issues, we should not interwine a person's character and his ability. To put it simply, while debating about Zhuge Liang's ability, do not praise him about his loyalty, uprightness, etc. It doesn't make sense and the issue of overrating does not concern those factors.

Ho ho ho, what a nice topic. Well, like Great Deer said, his character is irrelevant to the stories, even though I can present many consipiracy theories. Zhuge Liang in the novel was a joke. He was a wind-summoning-all-seeing, military genius who deserved the status of God. However, the real records of this age speak of a different Zhuge Liang. A human one!

What I find facinating is how LGZ described his death. While the death of someone who was equal in ability and better as a strategist, Lu Xun didn't get more than one line. Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei are the two main characters of Luo Guanzhong's fairytale, after they're both dead, the story become bland and you see that LGZ give little attention to the Jin Dynasty and the later Wu Emperors/Generals.

He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子

hmmmm do i feel embarrased , hey how old are you guys anyway 30? anyway what i was actually trying to say was that Zhuge liang fared better than most of the other advisors/statedgists.I did not mean to put him as a god. I was trying to say that he isn't that bad and has done some good things. He used his wit to outsmart Zhou yu and use him to his advantage. He was a disgrace in his older however. I am just saying he isn't that bad.I know LGZ makes him look superior. How he described Zhuge's death and Lu Xuns death is pretty funny

Zhou Gongjin wrote:... Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei are the two main characters of Luo Guanzhong's fairytale...

Heheh, I would actually say the "main character" was Cao Cao.

Cao Ren wrote:hmmmm do i feel embarrased , hey how old are you guys anyway 30? anyway what i was actually trying to say was that Zhuge liang fared better than most of the other advisors/statedgists.I did not mean to put him as a god. I was trying to say that he isn't that bad and has done some good things. He used his wit to outsmart Zhou yu and use him to his advantage. He was a disgrace in his older however. I am just saying he isn't that bad.I know LGZ makes him look superior. How he described Zhuge's death and Lu Xuns death is pretty funny

When you mention Zhuge Liang as a great military strategist many always jump to correct it. That is because Luo Guanzhong overrated his talents as a field commander. The things he was very good at were civil administration, foreign relations, and actually planning a long-term strategy to fight his enemies. He just needed a skilled field general like Fa Zheng to carry his plans out. Sima Yi was similar. Zhuge Liang was indeed very talented, just not in the way most people think he was.

Oh, and age doesn't have too much to do with how much we know about this subject, many of us have made it our hobby.

I think you're doing great. My parents used to detest me reading all those RTK books when I was 13 too. Anyway, I'm not 30 but I'm not 13 either. I'm older than Zhou Gongjin but why does anyone care about the age of a deer?