Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread (P. 21)

Thought he started in Phoenix? If he really came off the bench what business did he have starting for us, SMH

clipper*joe

07/21/2014 - 08:56 AM PST

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since 11-12 season, he started 110 games out of 144 games he played in with the Suns.

SamMays

07/21/2014 - 11:06 AM PST

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Dudley, in shape and shooting well, would be a perfect complimentary player for us. He would start and be backed up by Barnes, the defensive SF that many of you think we are missing. Barnes was always intended to be the backup SF, a situation for which he is ideally suited.

I hope Dudley comes back as the player we expected to get. If so, that will make a huge difference. If he doesn't, it will be a patchwork of guys playing the SF; Dudley, Barnes, Bullock and Jamal. it would be great if Bullock were to step up and make the position his.

I also think Doc has one more move up his sleeve before the start of the season.

ClippersDA

07/21/2014 - 12:31 PM PST

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Small forwards don't have To be three point specialists we need to mix it up with someone with athleticism, great timing and cutting ability and above average defense. If they aren't great three point shooters that shouldn't matter. Our attack is predictable with no versitility. Barnes is not a great defender despite his reputation and even if he can cut and slash, he seems to prefer spotting up for threes. I can't believe how many threes he attempts per game like he is some elite shooter.

Dudley is slow footed...not the three we need starting or coming off the bench. He's actually a good fit in okc or San Antonio or Portland. Someone with a great small forward that does a little bit of everything. He's a backup.

Agent0

07/21/2014 - 01:49 PM PST

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I've always found this an interesting statement for guys that play like 24 MPG because if you play 24 MPG, then at least half of your on court minutes is going to be against starters. I think we should be a little more accurate in how we say that (more relative to a 15 MPG guy) because it is a bit inaccurate if it is meant that the player just plays bench guys and it is therefore easier. A 24 MPG player against a team with a starter that players 37 MPG is playing like 11 MPG vs the bench and 13 MPG vs starters. Dudley had played 24, 26, 31, 28 minutes in the 4 seasons before he came to LAC and started 126/308 games, just doesn't make sense that playing against starters would suddenly now hinder his production out of nowhere.

Even if we say that, do we actually think Dudley's poor season had to do with bench vs starter? I mean outside of just saying it in frustration, does anyone actually think all he needed was to have started the season as a bench player with Barnes as the starter and everything would have been okay? He would be less injured, move quicker, have more lift, not shoot poorly? To be real, the guy was probably better off offensively with the starters who had a more fluid offense and guys who draw defenders more often to get him open shots. I mean look at Barnes as a starter with this team vs playing off the bench, even accounting for his injuries, the looks were just much better.

I know we're trying to find reasons and all, but seriously the guy just had a bad year, it wasn't being in the starting lineup or playing against starters when he started 60/65 games in 11-12 and we perfectly fine and even this season, though his confidence was lower at that time, he was much better as a starter than off the bench. Then similarly in 10-11, though he only started 15 games, he did very well in those games 16/6/2/52% FG/46% 3PT in 34 MPG. That's what Doc had in mind when he got him, the ability to shoot while playing off better players.

He needs to come in shape, stay healthy and continue to adjust to whichever group of players on the team he's paired with, but starting vs bench isn't going to be the remedy for his play, his own readiness and ability will be the remedy...and really even if we don't want to keep him anymore, good play helps us trade him. Teams actually liked the Phoenix Dudley in the trade market.

jarca

07/21/2014 - 02:08 PM PST

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^^^^^ Lamar Odom had the highest +- when he was a 6th man in the league something he wasn't doing as a starter for the clippers, heat, and lakers. So yea, playing with/against the bench somewhat infate your stats

MunoValente

07/21/2014 - 02:43 PM PST

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Health, fitness and confidence were Dudley's biggest problems. Starting vs. not starting didn't have much to do with it. I see it as first getting the injury, the injury whose prescribed treatment is rest hurting his fitness, followed by the loss of confidence that continued even after he mostly feeling better physically. I think health and fitness are things he can get under control this year, but confidence is less predictable.

There is one thing about his skill set that might make him better off the bench for us though, which is that he's a converted PF and that a lot of ways he would try to score in Phoenix overlap with what Griffin tries to do. He was a good pick pop/roll player in the Phoenix and could even score in the post some, but there isn't much reason to run those types of plays for him when he's on the floor with Griffin. Barnes works better with Griffin because he's better things that fit better with Griffin, offensive rebounding, transition, cutting runs off the ball.

Agent0

07/21/2014 - 02:57 PM PST

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^Didn't Dudley play with Amare and even Shaq? Phoenix actually used him in a lot more mid-range action than we did. He's actually very good as a shooter with the one dribble pull up or coming off pin down action to shoot. Also he actually wasn't bad at getting to the basket and drawing fouls and finishing in an old man game type of way, but we saw little of that.

I don't think that is a good example jarca, and I'll tell you why is say that. For most teams the starters have a better +/- than the bench as your best players are usually in the starting lineup, and with an non-adjusted +/- playing with the starters will actually give you better +/- numbers while playing with the bench will make it worse. (+/-) was an interesting choice though.

Also don't forget that Lamar started 35 games that year. Started 35, came off the bench for 47, so just a 12 game difference.

Technically, starting inflated his numbers. He didn't do as well on the other teams because he was a primary option on those teams while on the Lakers, not only was he playing off Kobe and Gasol, but he also was playing in the triangle and under Phil, three things that helped him be more effective as a player. But you can see that even that season you mentioned his +/- was better with the starters. So was his scoring efficiency. You also see the natural average difference in per minute production for a player coming off the bench vs starting. While it still depends on the team, generally the shots will decrease as a starter because there are more scoring options (lower FGA and maybe pts/min), but the efficiency increases playing off others and you really end up with a minimal difference in total scoring production for some guys (Gordon Hayward is an example, FGA increased with no Al Jefferson, but PPG didn't increase because he was much less efficient posing as a first option than playing off Jefferson).

Role-ish type players or complimentary guys don't really get a negative effect from playing starters since they will get to play off the teams best players and their shots are easier. There's less focus on them. There's a lot more focus on Odom in the 14 minutes he's on the floor and Kobe is off than in the 14 minutes he's on the floor and Kobe is there but he's playing starters.

This is a smaller factor, but we do make the assumption that all teams starters are better on defense than their bench, and our Clippers of last year as a unit are a clear example that it isn't true, because for example, individual matchup wise, I'd rather be guarded by David Lee the starter than by Draymond Green the bench player.

It depends on a players role and other factors too, it isn't some black and white thing where guys just produce better vs benches. Role players actually do better with starters if the bench on a team is less cohesive on offense, and that's usually the case. Teams that have good offensive bench units it isn't an issue, maybe a team with a playmaking PG off the bench for example. A guy like Jamal Crawford is probably more effective against benches because he's more of an isolation scorer, so in the starting lineup it is more likely that he meets a tougher perimeter defender or at least players more minutes against that guy as well as yes, most teams their starting unit is better at containing those types of scorers on defense. Role player shooters are just waiting to feed off other people doing the work, so the better the other people are at doing the work, the better they do. Still, in talking about Dudley, coming off the bench doesn't remedy injury of course firstly, but also missing more open shots than usual, being slower than usual, having less lift, shooting like 10% less from the FT line. I'm sorry, but you can't blame the bench for that, that's just sucking.

MunoValente

07/21/2014 - 03:25 PM PST

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Some, but he's played more with guys like Morris, Frye, Grant Hill and Warrick who were all more perimeter oriented and less of go-to guys. The half season they had both Shaq and Dudley, Dudley was still playing a lot at PF, especially if Shaq was on the floor. Dudley and Frye often played fairly well other, maybe he could have good partnership with Hawes who is a similar player to Frye.

tense2

07/21/2014 - 03:27 PM PST

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Yup, exactly Muno.

By the way, nice to see you back.

clipperboy24

07/21/2014 - 03:39 PM PST

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But I thought it wasn't him being out of shape that was a problem

MunoValente

07/21/2014 - 03:57 PM PST

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Depends on which month of the season it was. November injury, February fitness, April confidence. It's important for the rest of his career that he figure out his diet, I think he got away with eating bad when he was younger by working hard, but now that he's older and picking up injuries he can't depend on that. Maybe not this year, but at some point he might also do well to try putting on some muscle and moving back to mostly playing PF like Turkoglu, it's only going to get harder for him to keep up on the perimeter.

fullcourt

07/21/2014 - 04:03 PM PST

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I said this last summer but Dudley is just not very good. We rolled the dice on him and crapped out its time to stop depending on him finding some game and just start counting his contributions if any as a bonus .

clipperboy24

07/21/2014 - 04:29 PM PST

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It's funny that everyone acted like he was a great player when all he did well was shoot at a high % on a low volume of shots. Sounded pretty shaky to me and proved to be. He never has been a very good defender he just made a few good defensive plays mixed in with the bad and people identified those as the norm.

Dunkathon

07/21/2014 - 04:40 PM PST

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You really don't know when to quit trying to flamebait people, don't you?

Anyway, we'll see how Dudley does this upcoming season. Who knows, if he does well enough, Doc could actually trade him for a SF with more length.

clipperboy24

07/21/2014 - 04:45 PM PST

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I just took such a beating from so many people for criticizing him. I think it's healthy to remember what happened

Dunkathon

07/21/2014 - 04:47 PM PST

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Two wrongs don't make a right. They shouldn't have beat you down so hard, and IMO, you shouldn't be retaliating in such a manner. If anything, it's going to make people come down on you even harder if you end up being wrong about something in the future.

Just my two cents.

Agent0

07/21/2014 - 04:49 PM PST

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Depends on the context of "very good". He's been a "very good" role player, but a very good role player is an above average player at best, so calling him that is just saying he's an average range player. He's also been a very good spot up shooter playing off your stars, but that again isn't him being a scorer or anything like that.

So yea, I think there might have been some confusion as to what very good was referring to in his case as when most people say that it is relative to role. A very good role player is a mediocre player for the most part. I don't think anyone has ever implied that Dudley is a very good player in a league wide sense as there's nothing at all to support that claim in his play, statistically, anywhere. You do need good role players though.

Not really sure what we were rolling the dice on though, Dudley wasn't a high risk move. There was no potential we were hoping to tap, no new level of play / ability than his previous play expected.

Rolling the dice would be something like signing Evan Turner to full MLE and hoping he can contribute positively to a good team or be effective off the ball when he's yet to really show that ability. He's shown inefficient high volume stats on a bad team that led the league in pace, so inflation of stats from many angles. He's also shown poor efficiency role player stats on a decent team. Both with mediocre defense, so neither is really very exciting for him as a high usage player or a high level role player.

So we would be placing new requirements on him. We didn't expect any more than starting for 26-27 minutes and giving like 10-11 pts, 4 rebs, 2 assists and shooting well. If it is rolling the dice to expect a player to do the same thing he's done for 4 years then I'm not really sure what is going on in this league we call the NBA. Might be time for non guaranteed contracts if that is the case.

clipperboy24

07/21/2014 - 07:58 PM PST

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I Don't think it's wrong to hold someone accountable. It's not about flaming but showing reality.

But this thread did teach me about the ignore button

ClipperRevival

07/21/2014 - 11:39 PM PST

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Completely agreed. Dudley is the wrong 3 for this team. No foot speed which means no defense. We need a defensive minded 3. Just stop people, run the court, cut to the basket and that's it. We already have enough guys who can shoot.

jarca

07/21/2014 - 11:46 PM PST

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You nailed it with that. They look at him and say OMG he's super efficient.

Dunkathon

07/22/2014 - 12:52 AM PST

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Holding them accountable for what? An opinion on an internet message board?

To each their own, I suppose.

ClipperKyle32

07/24/2014 - 08:19 AM PST

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I can't bet my season on this guy. I'd rather Sign Marion!!!!!

ClipperKyle32

07/24/2014 - 08:20 AM PST

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Can we sign and trade Dudley to Miami for Beasley?

If love to have this

Marion/Barnes/Beasley

I'd LOVE THAT!!!

uncool

07/29/2014 - 11:02 AM PST

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I was in Vegas this week and I saw Caron Butler in Caesar's Palace at the Forum shops, he was nice enough to talk basketball with me for 3-4 minutes, went like this...

Me-Caron! I'm a Clipper fan, we need a SF now!

CB-Yes y'all do!

Me-Dudley had good numbers in PHX, he fooled us!

CB-Yup, Dudley sucks.

Me-That whole trade didn't go as well as we hoped for us.

CB-Not at all, Bled is a beast, he's about to be PAID.

I can't recall the rest but he was very kind. I was surprised he was so candid about Duds.

JQuick32

07/29/2014 - 11:51 AM PST

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Wow, embarrassing.... even other players around the league think he's trash. And some fans want to bet our season on him "turning it around"?

clipperboy24

07/29/2014 - 02:17 PM PST

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Haha, if this is for real, might be the funniest thing I have ever read

Dunkathon

07/29/2014 - 03:49 PM PST

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The Clippers have no choice but to bet the season on him turning it around. No way he's going to be traded otherwise.

Agent0

07/29/2014 - 09:07 PM PST

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He did suck, but Caron sucked worse with Milwaukee and was barely average with OKC, so they both sucked. That said, Caron is probably also salty considering Doc was basically saying Dudley is replacing you and the team should improve. I mean Dudley has never been close to the caliber of Caron at his best, but 32 year old role player Caron also wasn't worth $8M/year. He wouldn't have been "replaced" if he was making a lot less money.

Agent0

07/29/2014 - 09:10 PM PST

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The season doesn't hinge on what Dudley does or doesn't do, but certainly it would help for him to be better, whether or not he is kept, him being better means better production for the team, or at least better trade value, either way, it is a good thing.

uncool

07/30/2014 - 11:10 AM PST

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Funny thing is, Detroit just paid Caron $4.5 mil. A 1/4-mil more than Duds' inflated contract, even at his older age.

That said, he did seem a little salty. We talked about him killing us in the 4th qtr of gm 4 & he flashed me his little long distance sign. lol

kjavis

07/30/2014 - 08:28 PM PST

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i take caron over duds anydays, CB was an AS at one point and they don't call him tufjuice for nothing, duds on the other hand is just a soft puss

MunoValente

07/31/2014 - 10:20 AM PST

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Caron Butler was cut by the Bucks, that really tells you all you need to know about Caron Butler's game at this point.

Detroit decided to pay him for some crazy reason, but Detroit is pretty much a clown shoes organization, with history of giving out crazy contracts (Smith, Gordon, Villanueva).

The Thunder would have been a better if they used Lamb or even Jones instead Butler last year and we could have been a better off starting Barnes over Butler in 12/13.

CP3Heliflopter

07/31/2014 - 11:16 AM PST

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Butler is an even bigger scrub than Dudley at this point. He has been washed up for quite some time already.

clipper*joe

07/31/2014 - 05:38 PM PST

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Actually, Butler and the Bucks agreed to a buyout so Butler could go to a contender. Butler had plenty of contenders lined up to take him but he decided to go with the Thunder. He also became a starter on the team that took us out of the playoffs. Those are the facts whether you like them or not.

"You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Agent0

07/31/2014 - 05:59 PM PST

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Sheesh, Butler wasn't that bad. Yes, he certainly shouldn't be making $8M like he was with us anymore, and $4.5M is a little much for him at this stage, but he's an okay player at a low price. Now that said, not sure we should hype up him for "becoming a starter on the team that knocked us out" joe, it's like hyping Bonner up for "becoming a starter on the team that won the NBA championship". You're just swinging the opposite direction as Butler started two games in the playoffs and was a DNP in 6 vs SA, so let us put it in perspective. The guy started 2/40 games he played in OKC, that's not "becoming a starter".

Still, you guys went too far. He sucked with Milwaukee, but he was okay with OKC. Shot well from 3PT during the regular season for them and against Memphis. Against us, well, 25.7% FG / 35.0% 3PT is what it is, and against SA, 38.5% FG and 25.0% 3PT is also what it is. Okay, maybe he was pretty bad in the playoffs, but regular season he was not bad while in OKC.

clipper*joe

07/31/2014 - 06:16 PM PST

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Who's hyping anyone up? lol

I'm just pointing out the irony. Anyway, you are also going to an extreme as well by using Bonner out of context in the way I used Butler. My point is that the Thunder, who is a contender, thought Butler was worthy enough to be a starter on the team that took us out. How is that hyping him up? If a team that went further than us in the playoffs thought Butler was good enough to start, does that not put to rest this nonsense? Dude, chill out with that stuff. I never said anything about how much impact he had in the series/playoffs so you can stop with the stats. lol.

Agent0

07/31/2014 - 06:32 PM PST

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Hyping up was relative to the discussion, should have said giving him props for starting when it doesn't really say much about his caliber of player as he started 2/18 playoff games and didn't even play in one. Is it really a meaningful mention that a team that went further than us started him twice the whole season? It is a cool fact, but does it really say anything about Butler as a player except that he's a better shooter than Thabo and also tells us OKC was limited at the wing position? I guess it depends on the interpretation.

The stats were in response to the previous posters, so it's okay, you can ignore them. I actually thought he shot better in the playoffs than the numbers said, it was a while ago, couldn't really remember anymore, but he actually was pretty bad. He should be okay in the regular season for Detroit though, and SVG had him his first two seasons in Miami, so he probably wants the veteran presence on that team.

How did I use Bonner out of context? Bonner was started for 2 games to give SA more shooting and spacing and bring a big man out of the paint. Butler was started vs Memphis for 2 games to give more shooting and spacing for OKC and because Thabo's defense wasn't as useful against Courtney Lee and Tony Allen while Butler's offense helped. They were situation related starts, exact same thing, I think you might be assuming Butler was permanently starting or something, but he wasn't.

clipper*joe

07/31/2014 - 06:52 PM PST

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Again, I was merely pointing out the irony. Saying he started in important games isn't giving him props either, it is just further advancing my point that despite the OP thinking he was "cut", he did start for a contender. Do you not see why I pointed out that fact? As far as mentioning he was on the team that took us out goes, it's worth mentioning since he obviously thinks he wasn't good enough to be on this team yet he ended up going further than he ever did with us...regardless on how impactful he was. So yeah, it's very meaningful to the discussion I was having with the OP. No need to dissect every word, thought, or how meaningful you think we should write on here. We're all big boys here. I can understand you trying to argue a fact vs. opinion, as one should. But making a argument over how meaningful or unmeaningful a statement one said is, despite it being fact, is pretty petty. It wasn't to boast, hype, or go to an extreme, it was prove how wrong the OP was in his facts. Facts, not the choice on how animated he was in his response. If I wanted to show how ironic this is, wouldn't my argument be sustained through examples?

Well, all my examples support the irony in this discussion.

kjavis

07/31/2014 - 07:21 PM PST

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This post makes absolutely no sense at all lacks depth and explanation.

To begin CB is more likely to run than be cut, nobody wants to play for a lowly franchise like the Bucks.

Detroit has made a lot of bad signings in the past but that doesn't mean CB was a bad pickup, I'm sure there would have been plenty of suitors lining up for CB including the Clippers but Detroit made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

No One is going to be experimenting with 2-3year players that are still finding their place in the league especially in the playoffs, Thunder picked up CB for his experience and tufjuice so it's no surprise they start him over Jones/Lamb

Finally when we picked up CB he just won a ring with the Mavs and was performing quite well before his injury the previous season, being a past all star his experience gave the starting lineup a TUF presence they never had before, at that time you wouldn't start Barnes who has always been a journeyman but gives great energy especially off the bench. Just because Barnes is starting for us now doesn't mean its ideal.

fullcourt

07/31/2014 - 07:43 PM PST

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You don't need Dudley to morph into a stud. He simply needs to be able to contribute positively 8pts 4 boards and good shooting and simply being in better shape. Caron is done at this point as a top 8 rotation player if you have to play him that much you are going to be in trouble .

MunoValente

07/31/2014 - 08:55 PM PST

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Detroit has been ridiculed across the league for paying that much for Butler and cut by the Bucks is cut by the Bucks no matter how much you want to sugar coat it.

OKC wouldn't have been experimenting with Lamb, he played important minutes during the regular season and clearly was better than Butler, same with Adams compared to Perkins. Brooks chickened out and gave minutes to Perkins, Butler and Fisher rather than Adams, Jones and Lamb and it cost him. The Spurs didn't find Danny Green and Patty Mills by being chicken to use less proven players.

Being an allstar in 2008 doesn't mean crap in 2014. Other all-stars that year: Kidd, Billups, Rasheed, Hamilton, Iverson, Yao, Roy. Bunch of guys that are completely done.

kjavis

07/31/2014 - 10:00 PM PST

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Being cut or not cut means diddly squat to what CB can still contribute to another team in the twilight of his career, as last years POs showed, he is anything but 'completely done'

Agent0

08/01/2014 - 02:08 AM PST

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That's certainly true, sorry about that, but I will say that the Bonner comparison was not a different situation.

MunoValente

08/01/2014 - 09:12 AM PST

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He actively made the Thunder the worse, just like Fisher, just like Perkins. Fisher got plenty of playoff minutes too and nobody is acting he's still decent. Butler shot 32% and played bad defense in the playoffs. Against us specifically he shot something like 28%. We were beat by Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, with help from Ibaka, Jackson and Adams, not Butler. Playing like crap for a good team doesn't mean anything, might as well get Adam Morrison and Darko because they have championship rings.

Yes plenty of coaches like to crutch on crappy old players because they are too cowardly to trust younger players, but that doesn't mean the old guys are good anymore, again the Spurs don't do that opting to fill their bench with younger players and they whipped the crappy old guys when the time came.

kjavis

08/03/2014 - 06:30 AM PST

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Last I checked Manu was 37, Diaw 32 and Bonner 34

CP3Heliflopter

08/03/2014 - 08:48 AM PST

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All those players are much better than Butler who was complete turd for the Thunder. Just awful on both ends of the floor.

CP3Heliflopter

08/03/2014 - 08:49 AM PST

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He averaged 6 points on 32% shooting with awful defense last playoffs.You can't be serious....

He makes Dudley look good.

clipper*joe

08/03/2014 - 02:52 PM PST

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Imagine if Dudley actually got off the bench in the playoffs?

/sarcasm

kjavis

08/03/2014 - 06:36 PM PST

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ye no **** sherlock, you missed the conversation, that wasn't the point i was trying to make