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I don’t chime in on many of these discussions but I wanted to expand on the examples of aversive stimuli lest someone object to it’s use.Yelling “NO” or Ahhh, “Lunging at” or “towering over” a dog, Jerking on a lead, Jerking on a collar, Twisting an ear, Striking the dog, Getting in the dogs face and blowing the whistle (seen this one before) would all be aversive.I particularly like this statement “It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness...”. I believe we can all agree that the “best” aversive stimuli you can use, is the one that can be the most effective with the least intensity.

ok, so lets say you were to adversive in the water and caused confidence problems. What do you do.

Do you mean forcing and/or correcting in water? Trainers do that often with no ill effects, but that's because the dog was prepared properly for it through conditioning to the particular aversive used. The problems arise either when such conditioning has not happened, or when the aversive was improperly used.

How to repair the damage is individual to each case.

Evan

"Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

Do you mean forcing and/or correcting in water? Trainers do that often with no ill effects, but that's because the dog was prepared properly for it through conditioning to the particular aversive used. The problems arise either when such conditioning has not happened, or when the aversive was improperly used.

How to repair the damage is individual to each case.

Evan

Yes, I mean correcting in the water. I think I used to much pressure in the water once and caused problems cause we wernt ready for what I was trying to do (after thinking about it).
Now dog gets nervous when tying to handle in water and sometimes gives up.
He is close to master level

Let's see if we can find the central issue. What training have you done with him so far?

Evan

"Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

Let's see if we can find the central issue. What training have you done with him so far?

Evan

Obedience. FF, FTP ,TT Discaplined casting on land swim bw (twice) pattern blinds, with diversions, cheating singles.
I thank Ive done it all, but burnt him up on water and havnt been able to get the confidence back in training.
He ran 5-6 coold blinds last year when hunting in a stick pond with no problems. Went to OK and he would go out to deep water and when the cripples would dive under he would also. He fetched one under water.
Awsome hunting dog, He can sleep on the tail gate and when I shot a dove and it falls in the pond he will mark it.
Its just in training when he gets nervous.
Ive quit the collar mostly in the water.
I think the first epasode when i burnt him up caused the problem. Trying to fix it now.

Oh and yes I do train with an experinced group and a member of 2 clubs.
I have my ideas, just looking for more.
Thanks,
Brad

Yes, it sounds like you've completed the skill set of Basics, other than water. Were you water forcing when this happened? Swim-by? Something else?

Evan

"Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

Thanks Brad. I'd like to help as much as I can. Under the circumstances you would be better served to find a competent pro to coach you through this than to rely on a back & forth here. My email is rushcreekpress@aol.com if you care to get in touch anytime. But try to find a good pro if you can, or an amateur who trains at a high level, and has many years experience.

Evan

"Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”