If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Another factor that probably played a part in the dynamic of the relationship between Barber and Garagiola is that in 1947, when Barber was broadcasting the Dodgers, and Jackie Robinson was breaking the color barrier, Garagiola, then a catcher for St. Louis, was one of the main offenders as far as making Jackie's rookie season miserable. Barber came to like and respect Robinson during his time in Brooklyn, and that had to at least be in the back of his mind when he had to work with Garagiola in the booth.

I doubt very much that played a role considering how Garagiola as a broadcaster had nothing but praise for Robinson over the years, and also I think there is a very serious danger in trying to impugn some kind of racial motive to Garagiola if Robinson happened to be spiked. I'm not denying that Robinson had to face a lot of adversity on that score, but there is a very serious danger in oversimplifying every time Robinson may have been spiked in a ballgame to some kind of sinister racial motive. And if Garagiola really did have some kind of anti-Robinson reputation, why would Scully have bothered to work with him?

Barber was no shrinking violet when it came to blasting Garagiola in his book. If he honestly felt that was a reason to not feel comfortable with Garagiola, he would have said so.

And I really have to take issue with the notion that when Sterling makes a call I find entertaining it's him "sounding like an idiot" or that those of us who enjoy his work like it because he "sounds like an idiot." I like Sterling because at his best he's been entertaining and knows how to connect with the core Yankee audience by reflecting the excitement and enthusiasm I as a fan feel when something exciting happens, and that's something his predecessor in the booth, Greenwald was totally incapable of doing (I again, always come back to the point that as a Yankee fan, I don't compare Sterling to Mel Allen, who was before my time, I compare him to the last guy who had the job before him).

I doubt very much that played a role considering how Garagiola as a broadcaster had nothing but praise for Robinson over the years, and also I think there is a very serious danger in trying to impugn some kind of racial motive to Garagiola if Robinson happened to be spiked. I'm not denying that Robinson had to face a lot of adversity on that score, but there is a very serious danger in oversimplifying every time Robinson may have been spiked in a ballgame to some kind of sinister racial motive. And if Garagiola really did have some kind of anti-Robinson reputation, why would Scully have bothered to work with him?

Barber was no shrinking violet when it came to blasting Garagiola in his book. If he honestly felt that was a reason to not feel comfortable with Garagiola, he would have said so.

"As in the earlier series, the first game was marred by a spiking incident. In the second inning, Cardinal catcher Joe Garagiola caught Robinson on the heel. 'I don't think Garagiola did it intentionally', said Robinson after the game, 'but this makes three times in two games with the Cardinals that it's happened. He cut my shoe all to pieces'. When Robinson came to the plate in the third inning, he made a remark to Garagiola, who responded with a racial slur. For the first time during the long season, Robinson lost his temper. He and Garagiola "engaged in an angry teeth-to-teeth exchange", which brought coach Sukeforth out of the dugout to restrain Robinson, and required intervention by umpire Beans Reardon."

My source for that is "Baseball's Great Experiment" by Jules Tygiel, page 204, not Red Barber. You can spin it any way you want to, there was no love lost between Robinson and Garagiola, who was an active participant in the Cardinals' campaign of harassement of Robinson in 1947.

"Look at it, man", he said as if he had read my thoughts. "they call it America, and they call it civilization, and they call it television, and they believe in it and salute it and sing songs to it and eat and sleep and die still believing in it, and---and---I don't know", he said, taking another drag, "then some time the Mets come along and win the World Series___" Gram Parsons, quoted by Stanley Booth in Dance With The Devil

The danger is in presuming the motive was the same as that of a Ben Chapman or whether it was run-of-the mill "bench jockeying" of the kind that had been part of the game for quite some time before Robinson was ever around. That's where it can be a very dicey game IMO, and my point was that if Barber wasn't going to mention that in his book when he already wasn't holding back from what he felt about Garagiola (and Garagiola to his credit at least did not use his books as the occasion for ripping those he had issues with in the past), then I think that's another argument against the idea that it was a factor in his relationship with Garagiola.

I'm sorry, but if Robinson was spiked three times in two games with the Cardinals, that goes beyond "run-of-the-mill bench jockeying".

As I'm sure you're aware, the Cardinals threatened to strike at the beginning of the season if Robinson was allowed to play. In light of that, I don't believe the spikings were accidental or coincidental.

"Look at it, man", he said as if he had read my thoughts. "they call it America, and they call it civilization, and they call it television, and they believe in it and salute it and sing songs to it and eat and sleep and die still believing in it, and---and---I don't know", he said, taking another drag, "then some time the Mets come along and win the World Series___" Gram Parsons, quoted by Stanley Booth in Dance With The Devil

We're starting to get afield from the topic of broadcasters. The issue was whether this had anything to do with Barber's relationship with Garagiola, and the evidence indicates it does not because if it were, Barber would have said something about it in a book where he was willing to rip Garagiola for everything under the sun.

I think we should get back to the issue of broadcasters before we get further afield.

I don't know how you can presume to know what Barber would or wouldn't have said, but his relationship with Garagiola is relevant to the thread in my opinion.

But I like Red Barber and you don't, and you like Joe Garagiola and I don't, and neither of us is likely to change the other's mind, so I'll agree to end this somewhat tangential argument.

"Look at it, man", he said as if he had read my thoughts. "they call it America, and they call it civilization, and they call it television, and they believe in it and salute it and sing songs to it and eat and sleep and die still believing in it, and---and---I don't know", he said, taking another drag, "then some time the Mets come along and win the World Series___" Gram Parsons, quoted by Stanley Booth in Dance With The Devil

It's not that I dislike Barber, BTW. I just think that too often there's a tendency among sports broadcast historians to put a halo around him at the expense of acknowledging his flaws as a man and in the business that *everyone* is prone to have, and the fact that his way was not always the best way in terms of how to call a game.

My source for that is "Baseball's Great Experiment" by Jules Tygiel, page 204, not Red Barber. You can spin it any way you want to, there was no love lost between Robinson and Garagiola, who was an active participant in the Cardinals' campaign of harassement of Robinson in 1947.

Eig's Opening Day puts a different spin on this incident. Eig's version was that Robinson was baiting Garagiola while he was in the batters box. The book has a photo of the confrontation and Garagiola is the only one who looks upset. Garagiola later commented that the incident basically boiled down to two very competitive players trying to jockey the other.

As I'm sure you're aware, the Cardinals threatened to strike at the beginning of the season if Robinson was allowed to play. In light of that, I don't believe the spikings were accidental or coincidental.

Besides a fabricated statement attributed to Ford Frick there's no real evidence that there was any plot by the Cardinals to strike.

Eig's Opening Day puts a different spin on this incident. Eig's version was that Robinson was baiting Garagiola while he was in the batters box. The book has a photo of the confrontation and Garagiola is the only one who looks upset. Garagiola later commented that the incident basically boiled down to two very competitive players trying to jockey the other.

So the three spikings of Robinson in two games with the Cardinals don't amount to a racial incident? There was no intent on the part of the Cardinals to injure Robinson? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Last edited by ol' aches and pains; 01-05-2010 at 04:19 PM.
Reason: fixed a typo, if you must know.

"Look at it, man", he said as if he had read my thoughts. "they call it America, and they call it civilization, and they call it television, and they believe in it and salute it and sing songs to it and eat and sleep and die still believing in it, and---and---I don't know", he said, taking another drag, "then some time the Mets come along and win the World Series___" Gram Parsons, quoted by Stanley Booth in Dance With The Devil

Sorry, you're quite right, and let the record show I tried to disengage in post#156, but was dragged kicking and screaming back into the fray. I'll behave myself now...

"Look at it, man", he said as if he had read my thoughts. "they call it America, and they call it civilization, and they call it television, and they believe in it and salute it and sing songs to it and eat and sleep and die still believing in it, and---and---I don't know", he said, taking another drag, "then some time the Mets come along and win the World Series___" Gram Parsons, quoted by Stanley Booth in Dance With The Devil

Garagiola is an incredibly talented broadcaster. I don't denigrate his ability. But Harry Caray was his mentor and they ended up not speaking. Lindsey Nelson once referred to Joe as the single most ambitious person he ever met. Joe undercut Curt Gowdy at NBC. And while Scully and Garagiola worked together tremendously--I think the greatest TV baseball crew ever, and perhaps the best TV broadcasting pair ever--when Joe left amid criticism of his analysis, he did say Vin talked too much and overpowered the broadcast. Red gave his version of events, and whatever their merit, I wonder about Joe's version and where the truth lies.

Supposedly Caray got miffed after Joe left STL for NBC in the early 60's and never gave Harry any credit for giving him a shot in the Cards broadcast booth in 1955 and also teaching him a lot about broadcasting. Joe could tell a funny story, but according to Caray he really had a weak voice which he didn't know how to project. Harry also said that at the 1964 WS he went up to shake hands with Joe, who was doing the Series on NBC radio with Rizzuto, just ignored him. Harry had given preferential treatment to Joe over Jack Buck when the 3 of them worked together from 55-62, I guess because Joe was also a native St. Louisan and a fellow paisano.

About 10 years ago Buck said that Musial and Joe, who had been business partners in some venture ended up not speaking to each other, it got pretty ugly. I don't know any details, but I'll say you never have heard bad things about Musial, while Joe's name has been mentioned several times.

It should be mentioned that Joe has done a lot for an organization that I believe is called BAT...they raise funds to take care of older, indigent, former players who were played before the enourmous salaries and pensions and have found themselves down on their luck for various reasons.

I'd add that Joe G. also has done a lot to combat the use of chewing tobacco (newly elected Hall of Famer Doug Harvey nearly died of cancer from it and would appear with him). I don't want to suggest that Joe is a rotten human being.

Another note: Harry also said he did more to help Joe than he did to help Skip. Skip got even, though. Pete Van Wieren was saying where the Braves would be on their next road trip and mentioned Chicago. Skip said--and you could hear the laughter in his voice and in the background--"Chicago? Isn't that where that nut leads the crowd in the 7th inning stretch?"

I also think of something else Lindsey said: show me an announcer with a big job and I'll show you someone who had to cut up some people to get there. Also, they could just be prima donnas. As much as I love Vin Scully, in 1966, the first time the team announcer had to share the play-by-play with Curt Gowdy, Vin wouldn't speak during Gowdy's air time and left him hanging. They didn't get along for a long time after that. I am pretty sure that age and wisdom have triumphed in Vin's case over that kind of silliness.

I also think of something else Lindsey said: show me an announcer with a big job and I'll show you someone who had to cut up some people to get there. Also, they could just be prima donnas.

With regards to this, how about a mention of Howard Cosell, who may have been the worst baseball commentator, at least at network level. It's hard to believe it's been about 25 years since he left ABC and someone who have to be pressing 40 to have much of a memory of Howard, but during the 70's and early 80's he was, by far, the biggest announcer in sports and one of the most well known celebrities in the country. He started at ABC doing boxing, the only sport that he called the action [can't ever forget "DOWN GOES FRAZIER!! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!!] his interviews with Ali were priceless. Became a mega-star with MNF in 1969, he worked great with Don Meredith, while Gifford, a pretty average play by play guy, basically just gave down, distance, etc. and Howard dominated the show. During this time, whether on MNF or his radio show, Cosell used to harangue how baseball was a esssentially a boring and dying sport. Until ABC began doing it in 1976 and Howard was able to get himself on the broadcasts by postseason. If you have ever seen the Chambliss hr in Game 5 of the 76 ALCS or Reggie's 3 HR's in the final game of the 77 WS, Howard jumped in during the middle of Keith Jackson's call, as he would usually do anytime anything exciting happened during a game or MNF, come to think of it. Jackson was more of a football guy who probably tolerated Howard as long as they kept him off his college football broadcasts, but it would have been interesting, to say the least, to see what would have happened if Howard had been working the booth for MLB with Caray, Scully or Garagiola doing play by play and he jumped in.

In light of how Cosell ruined those two great moments in 76 and 77 with his motormouth intrusions, just imagine him in the booth when the ball went through Buckner's legs! It's a dreadful thing to consider.

there is some data that Curt Flood was denied to eat at Musials restaurant and Musial tried to cover it up saying they were closing

whether it is 100% true or partially true or 100% false, you do hear things about Musial that arent flattering

using the word never is easy to contradict

1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise

there is some data that Curt Flood was denied to eat at Musials restaurant and Musial tried to cover it up saying they were closing

whether it is 100% true or partially true or 100% false, you do hear things about Musial that arent flattering

using the word never is easy to contradict

Totally unsubstantiated. Flood said this in his bitter 1972 bio, but Musial said he came in late, after the kitchen was closed. I'd also bet that alcohol was involved. In any case, St. Louis had a very active civil rights community in the 60's and if the towns most popular and visible upscale restauant, which attracted sports, show biz and political celebrities, was denying service to blacks it would have been a big story way before Flood's book came out.

I'll stand by what I said about never hearing any negatives regarding Musial.

If you have ever seen the Chambliss hr in Game 5 of the 76 ALCS or Reggie's 3 HR's in the final game of the 77 WS, Howard jumped in during the middle of Keith Jackson's call, as he would usually do anytime anything exciting happened during a game or MNF, come to think of it. Jackson was more of a football guy who probably tolerated Howard as long as they kept him off his college football broadcasts, but it would have been interesting, to say the least, to see what would have happened if Howard had been working the booth for MLB with Caray, Scully or Garagiola doing play by play and he jumped in.

ABC offered Scully Monday Night Football in 1970, as it was starting. He turned it down, citing his work with the Dodgers. But he reportedly did not want to work with Cosell.

I agree: Cosell was a pioneer in a lot of ways, but his baseball broadcasting was abysmal, and I think of when he grabbed the microphone after the Chambliss homer in 1976. Scully might have throttled him. But I also think of something interesting that Bob Edwards said in his memoir of Red Barber--that he was surprised to hear Red speak nicely about Cosell, but Red said that Cosell did what he had to do to make it, and I think Red got that, given his use of southern phrases and the like.

Totally unsubstantiated. Flood said this in his bitter 1972 bio, but Musial said he came in late, after the kitchen was closed. I'd also bet that alcohol was involved. In any case, St. Louis had a very active civil rights community in the 60's and if the towns most popular and visible upscale restauant, which attracted sports, show biz and political celebrities, was denying service to blacks it would have been a big story way before Flood's book came out.

I'll stand by what I said about never hearing any negatives regarding Musial.

there were two incidents

Musial was not there the first incident

what does alcohol was involved mean?

he is not perfect, sorry

1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise

This year, for the first time, Jon Miller is up for the Frick Award. He's certainly deserving--this will be his 34th season of play-by-play and he is a great broadcaster. But how many people don't know how good he is because they don't hear him on the Giants, but instead hear him saddled with Morgan and, last year, Steve Phillips?