Some title winning Red Bull weren't quickest out of the box. In 2012 Vettel only started winning races on regular basis during second part of the season iirc. The 2017 car still might win multiple races.

While I agree that Red Bull might still turn things around this year and it's way too early to panic, to be fair in 2012 it was more to do with the fact that people were trying to understand the comedy tyres. I don't think Red Bull ever had a car at a disadvantage that year.

Fair enough, but this season it's believed that the car suspension isn't tuned, when they sort it out the car still might be quick. There is no indication that the car is fundamentally flawed.

I agree. I'm sure I read somewhere they were confident they'd be winning races by mid-season

I think this covers all aforementioned cars except the Williams which to be honest had so many toys that it probably didn't get much attention. The Benneton's did during that period though so it's hard to picture Newey not incorporating it if he could but I've no real idea.

It's a claim I've read before anyway.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.

Precisely this!

IDK how the legend that Newey is some aero rainman, but teams he's been on have been lackluster plenty of seasons.He's certainly a top engineer but every team has engineers as equally talented. The reality is that TEAMS of engineers have to work in unison, first lulling over all their ideas & suggestions collectively, and then they must work through the process of elimination to weed out elements they feel are the least efficient and possibly don't work well for the entire system.

This is true for every single team. Yes their is a leader on the team, but they don't make decisions all on their own.

People seem to forget that Newey joined Red Bull way back in 2006 and "His" designs couldn't do much of anything until a kid named Sebastian Vettel drove brilliantly over the course of a wet weekend, AND driving for the Junior team no less. Then when the new regs came in, initially they were pretty good but not excellent. And need anyone be reminded that Brawn was clearly the top car and Red Bull was only able to bridge the gap due to Brawn's extremely limited finances that stifled their development throughout the season. While Brawn was struggling to develop even the smallest improvements, Red Bull was throwing truckloads of cash at their team so they could work in record pace with zero worries about running out of money.

To boot, if Newey is such the superior engineer, why didn't he figure out he could develop a DD for the 2009 Red Bull car?He didn't. But Engineers at Brawn, Williams and even Toyota did.

Starting to get the picture yet people?

All engineers in F1 are extremely talented and supremely capable people, but it takes quite a bit of luck to squeeze all the concepts and ideas into one uniform design and come out on top because every team has an army of equally talented people working towards the exact same goal around the exact same regulations.

That Red Bull is struggling a bit in aero should be of no surprise to anyone because every designer and team will create cars that are simply off the mark. However, the difference and deficiencies of a car can be somewhat overcome by having superb drivers which they've got. And the Engine seems much improved from last year too, but I wouldn't quite say they are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes and that would account for a lot of speed on it's own, so I wouldn't be so quick to believe that the chassis is indeed their main issue. Max looked awfully quick in the first race so with a little bit of development in the right area, they could be challenging for podiums, possibly even for wins.

I think you are omitting some very important facts here. For example, Newey was a king-maker in the 90s. His Williams cars dominated the period from 1991-1997 and then, after moving to McLaren, they became dominant for a couple of years. When he first went to Red Bull, they were in an evolutionary phase of existing regulations and fundamentally at a huge disadvantage to both McLaren and Ferrari. The 2009 regulations changes were really Red Bull's opportunity to catch up and Newey delivered the strongest overall package. He might have missed the DD initially but once they incorporated it, they were the team to beat for years to come.

Let's not disparage the guy. Certainly he hasn't always been the best but, as a chief aerodynamicist, he has been unparalleled in the history of the sport.

Actually I'm not.

Even in the 90's when he joined Williams they had a significant army of engineers and if you remember, what made those Williams so utterly dominant initially was the active suspension system of which Newey played zero part in developing. Their aero was already quite excellent by the time he arrived there and that success merely carried on, and one could argue improved a bit upon Newey's arrival.

And the modern aero technology was born at Benetton and Newey and everyone else played catch up for a couple of years which also shows that he's not the god many will have you believe. And McLaren was extremely successful for many years before Newey's arrival.

Wow. So you really give Newey no credit for those Williams cars? Active suspension was banned in 1994 and Williams still produced the best car in 1995-97. When he went to McLaren, they had just come off of their worst seasons in ages. McLaren from 1994-96 was not a successful team and Newey was perhaps the key personnel acquisition that righted the ship and gave them back to back championships.

The Red Bull project was also obviously a resounding success and I can't see why you would write off his contributions. Not sure what your gripe is with him but he's obviously had a brilliant career.

No, I give Newey plenty of credit because, as I've stated numerous times, he is quite the gifted engineer… Other worldly?… not so much.

If you ask me he's done the same thing Alonso has tried to do only it's worked out more favorably for him where as Alonso has arrived on and departed from teams at not quite the right time. I only wish he'd have gone to Williams to see if they miraculously return to the front of the grid with authority. Something tells me that wouldn't be the case.

As for the McLarens becoming more competitive post '93… McLaren's biggest issue was not being able to devise and develop an active suspension system in the same league as the Williams cars had, but outside of that the cars were indeed pretty solid. Once they removed the active suspension Williams lost what gave it its dominant edge. Rory Byrne is another design guru who has enjoyed similar success yet no one refers to him in a god-like manor. Somehow Newey gets this type of praise and I don't understand why. He doesn't design the cars outright outside the initial conceptualization and other engineers on the staff have plenty of input on the final design. In fact Peter Prodromou was the chief aerodynamicist in the 4 seasons Red Bull dominated but upon his departure, they've been, let's say, not quite so dominant. The PU is to blame for some of it, but the car itself has been a bit off the mark as well, outside a select few GP's at certain tracks.

Again, not taking anything away from Newey, but if anyone thinks he achieved all his successes alone they're buying into hype. F1 is such that every last little detail requires input from several, even dozens of minds in order to achieve the best results. If you look back at teams who've enjoyed significant success and periods of dominance, there is one commonality among them all… a stable, well rounded team. No one person can do it alone and no one person should be given all the credit for their collective successes.

Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?

Of course, all those cars had blown diffusers.

No they didn't. Newey and everyone else went away from them in the mid 90's because they caused too much of a balance shift between on and off throttle. The FW18 and 19 didn't use one, and I'm fairly sure his title winning McLarens didn't either.

Ferrari were the first team to move away from it, introducing periscope exhausts at Barcelona 1998.

Newey only moved to periscope exhausts in 2002.

The reason they moved away from blown diffusers (in short) is because the longer exhausts were reducing engine power.

Your post is completely wrong. Fw18 and 19 had blown diffusers as did the mcalren in 1998 and 1999.

Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?

Of course, all those cars had blown diffusers.

No they didn't. Newey and everyone else went away from them in the mid 90's because they caused too much of a balance shift between on and off throttle. The FW18 and 19 didn't use one, and I'm fairly sure his title winning McLarens didn't either.

Ferrari were the first team to move away from it, introducing periscope exhausts at Barcelona 1998.

Newey only moved to periscope exhausts in 2002.

The reason they moved away from blown diffusers (in short) is because the longer exhausts were reducing engine power.

Your post is completely wrong. Fw18 and 19 had blown diffusers as did the mcalren in 1998 and 1999.

FW18 showing exhaust tip above diffuser. Technically the exhaust stream is aiding the flow of air through the diffuser but this is not what we would usually term as a blown diffuser.

Newey doesn't use a computer.He has his emails printed out for him. Yep. Old school.He is an amazing designer however I am sure all his ideas need to be put into a computer to be tested.

Now on the cars downforce. The problem is these cars are bigger and wider and the tyres which are the equivalent of aerodynamic bricks are bigger too.The power unit deficit is much more pronounced now between Renault and Merc/Ferrari.Renault are currently using last years energy store which is heavier than the 2017 one. And they have a big update planned for Canada.If they can get near the power out put of the top teams, then they can then pile back on the downforce.

One thing we should see is teams using the rear wing for a lot of downforce rather than other elements so they get the maximum benefit from DRS. The rear wings have looked relatively small maybe due to using the floor and diffuser (and other things at the rear of the car) to get the rear down force.

It won't be long till the teams get the hang of these tyres, and adjust the aero to maximise overtaking potential.

Re Dan vs Max.I think in the dry Dan has opened an advantage to Max in pure pace. It is too early to really tell but that is my gut feeling.However Max's touch in the wet is simply amazing. (In China Dan was made to look a bit amateur in the damp conditions early on as he was understeering. After they adjusted his front wing in his 2nd stop, and the track dried further, the advantage swung back to Dan. It was an amazing drive by Max to get 3rd that is for sure)

James Allen has linked Dan to McLaren a few times before. He is contracted to Red Bull in 2018, however if Max and Dan clash, and Honda make a dramatic turnaround, he may just pop up at McLaren in 2018. I think both Ham and Vettel would not want to go head to head with Dan if they don't have to.

Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?

Of course, all those cars had blown diffusers.

No they didn't. Newey and everyone else went away from them in the mid 90's because they caused too much of a balance shift between on and off throttle. The FW18 and 19 didn't use one, and I'm fairly sure his title winning McLarens didn't either.

Ferrari were the first team to move away from it, introducing periscope exhausts at Barcelona 1998.

Newey only moved to periscope exhausts in 2002.

The reason they moved away from blown diffusers (in short) is because the longer exhausts were reducing engine power.

Your post is completely wrong. Fw18 and 19 had blown diffusers as did the mcalren in 1998 and 1999.

I always thought that they moved away from blown diffusers in the past because in the past when engine was in idle there were no enough fumes. Only recently engine maps allowed to produce enough fumes all the time. At least this is what I read few years ago.

_________________Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.Mark Twain

No they didn't. Newey and everyone else went away from them in the mid 90's because they caused too much of a balance shift between on and off throttle. The FW18 and 19 didn't use one, and I'm fairly sure his title winning McLarens didn't either.

Ferrari were the first team to move away from it, introducing periscope exhausts at Barcelona 1998.

Newey only moved to periscope exhausts in 2002.

The reason they moved away from blown diffusers (in short) is because the longer exhausts were reducing engine power.

Your post is completely wrong. Fw18 and 19 had blown diffusers as did the mcalren in 1998 and 1999.

FW18 showing exhaust tip above diffuser. Technically the exhaust stream is aiding the flow of air through the diffuser but this is not what we would usually term as a blown diffuser.

I must admit I wasn't sure about the McLarens.

Great discussion.

Here is the Mp-13 from 1998

_________________"No, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."Jean-Pierre Sarti

I always thought that they moved away from blown diffusers in the past because in the past when engine was in idle there were no enough fumes. Only recently engine maps allowed to produce enough fumes all the time. At least this is what I read few years ago.

It was because of engine power, and also the 98 regulations meant the engine was moved further forward in the chassis.

When Red Bull re-introduced the blown diffusers at the start of 2010, they were not using any off throttle blowing (initally), and it still gave them a sizeable advantage. The best drivers in the world can live with it.

Looks back at all the preseason talk I seem to remember an interview Ted dd with Newey at the first test where he said that Red Bull had several different design philosophies for the new season but ultimately you had to pick the one you thought would perform the best and have faith you had made the correct decision.

IMO Red Bull have gone the wrong way (although reasonably competitive and in true Horner/Marko style have blamed it on a 'correlation' issue whilst they wait for the updated car to arrive around Spain. I don't think Red Bull are the type of team to put their hand up and say we might of got this wrong especially with all the hype around the rule changes playing into their hands.

Does anyone think the new car will look more or less the same as the current but with the 'correlation' issues sorted out or will it look significantly different...

Looks back at all the preseason talk I seem to remember an interview Ted dd with Newey at the first test where he said that Red Bull had several different design philosophies for the new season but ultimately you had to pick the one you thought would perform the best and have faith you had made the correct decision.

IMO Red Bull have gone the wrong way (although reasonably competitive and in true Horner/Marko style have blamed it on a 'correlation' issue whilst they wait for the updated car to arrive around Spain. I don't think Red Bull are the type of team to put their hand up and say we might of got this wrong especially with all the hype around the rule changes playing into their hands.

Does anyone think the new car will look more or less the same as the current but with the 'correlation' issues sorted out or will it look significantly different...

Maybe they'll have a version of sidepods that uses that same grey area in the rules Ferrari and McLaren spotted. A T-Wing maybe as well.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Newey doesn't use a computer.He has his emails printed out for him. Yep. Old school.He is an amazing designer however I am sure all his ideas need to be put into a computer to be tested.

Now on the cars downforce. The problem is these cars are bigger and wider and the tyres which are the equivalent of aerodynamic bricks are bigger too.The power unit deficit is much more pronounced now between Renault and Merc/Ferrari.Renault are currently using last years energy store which is heavier than the 2017 one. And they have a big update planned for Canada.If they can get near the power out put of the top teams, then they can then pile back on the downforce.

One thing we should see is teams using the rear wing for a lot of downforce rather than other elements so they get the maximum benefit from DRS. The rear wings have looked relatively small maybe due to using the floor and diffuser (and other things at the rear of the car) to get the rear down force.

It won't be long till the teams get the hang of these tyres, and adjust the aero to maximise overtaking potential.

Re Dan vs Max.I think in the dry Dan has opened an advantage to Max in pure pace. It is too early to really tell but that is my gut feeling.However Max's touch in the wet is simply amazing. (In China Dan was made to look a bit amateur in the damp conditions early on as he was understeering. After they adjusted his front wing in his 2nd stop, and the track dried further, the advantage swung back to Dan. It was an amazing drive by Max to get 3rd that is for sure)

James Allen has linked Dan to McLaren a few times before. He is contracted to Red Bull in 2018, however if Max and Dan clash, and Honda make a dramatic turnaround, he may just pop up at McLaren in 2018. I think both Ham and Vettel would not want to go head to head with Dan if they don't have to.

Dead nuts with the Newey thing. He's a total analog dummy (meaning he refuses to do anything on a computer which is a real shame because he's cheating himself out of growth - I have a few old fogies here who are amazing retouchers but refuse to use a tablet and pen to do their work) and if perfectly content going through life with his blinders on full cloak regarding anything computer. Who knows how much better he could be? I took engineering in High school and the teacher was a guy named Rodney Pete, who as it turns out was a factory Porsche driver int he 60's and he tasked the class with drawing out the complete plans for an F-16 manually using a bunch of old school tools, including the ever important French Curves, because he wanted us to feel what we were creating. He was right in that doing everything on the computer is absolutely precise, but that in working solely on a computer, you wouldn't feel the relation from one line flowing into another the way you would if you drew it by hand.

However, once we finished those plans, he had us redraw the entire thing in the now antiquated Autocad of the day to show us that while a computer is the superior method, knowing how to do things manually allows your brain to process information more logistically and organically, which in turn helps you be better designer in the computerized world. As I stated earlier, Newey is Gifted, but there is no way in hell he could design everything to an exacting T manually and his successes have come via the collaboration of an army of talented individuals under his guidance and tutelage.

Regarding Dan & Max, I'm not convinced Dan has opened up a gap to his teammate at all. Not even close IMPO. The way I see it is that Max has the superior touch in more areas, but his all-out ballsy attitude has cost him at times. Once he learns to bide his time in certain situations, I think Dan has no shot at besting Max. Dan is an excellent driver but I think he receives far too much hype over his terrible dive bombs which have forced other drivers to take evasive action to avoid a collision that would end their race. I think in 2014 Dan looked better than Seb for several reasons, and Seb falling out of love with the team and the car being vastly different from what he was accustomed to for almost 5 years, dropping down in performance, while for Dan it was a major step up in performance from the Toro Rosso he drover for a few seasons and he was able to have a better feel in the cockpit compared to Seb finding the car lacking and therefore not feeling confident driving it.

I just don't see Dan as an elite driver yet and enter his current teammate, he's being shown up. I fully expect that sooner rather than later Max will be Red Bull's clear #1 driver, possibly by or before mid season even. I don't think either Seb or Lewis fear Dan one bit and this year's Vettel would invite a challenge from Dan and from what he's showed us, Lewis hasn't been afraid of anyone ever and he is confident that he is the best F1 driver and can best anyone else over a season. The 2 guys in F1 he'd have the toughest time besting are Vettel and Alonso and I'm sure he'd say so himself. Bottas thus far is keeping him honest but the season is long so time will tell how good Bottas is.

Where Dan will go in 2018, I see 2 serious options… Re-Up with his current team, or what I think is more likely, given he is a red blooded Italian… replacing Kimi at Ferrari.I've not heard anything linking Dan to McLaren as of yet, but who knows. I certainly doubt that one, but I can definitely see him at Ferrari next year. And if he leaves, who then would be called up for the 2nd seat at Red Bull?… Kvyat or Sainz?… or would they be ballsy enough to put Gasly in that seat over either of them?

Newey doesn't use a computer.He has his emails printed out for him. Yep. Old school.He is an amazing designer however I am sure all his ideas need to be put into a computer to be tested.

Now on the cars downforce. The problem is these cars are bigger and wider and the tyres which are the equivalent of aerodynamic bricks are bigger too.The power unit deficit is much more pronounced now between Renault and Merc/Ferrari.Renault are currently using last years energy store which is heavier than the 2017 one. And they have a big update planned for Canada.If they can get near the power out put of the top teams, then they can then pile back on the downforce.

One thing we should see is teams using the rear wing for a lot of downforce rather than other elements so they get the maximum benefit from DRS. The rear wings have looked relatively small maybe due to using the floor and diffuser (and other things at the rear of the car) to get the rear down force.

It won't be long till the teams get the hang of these tyres, and adjust the aero to maximise overtaking potential.

Re Dan vs Max.I think in the dry Dan has opened an advantage to Max in pure pace. It is too early to really tell but that is my gut feeling.However Max's touch in the wet is simply amazing. (In China Dan was made to look a bit amateur in the damp conditions early on as he was understeering. After they adjusted his front wing in his 2nd stop, and the track dried further, the advantage swung back to Dan. It was an amazing drive by Max to get 3rd that is for sure)

James Allen has linked Dan to McLaren a few times before. He is contracted to Red Bull in 2018, however if Max and Dan clash, and Honda make a dramatic turnaround, he may just pop up at McLaren in 2018. I think both Ham and Vettel would not want to go head to head with Dan if they don't have to.

Dead nuts with the Newey thing. He's a total analog dummy (meaning he refuses to do anything on a computer which is a real shame because he's cheating himself out of growth - I have a few old fogies here who are amazing retouchers but refuse to use a tablet and pen to do their work) and if perfectly content going through life with his blinders on full cloak regarding anything computer. Who knows how much better he could be? I took engineering in High school and the teacher was a guy named Rodney Pete, who as it turns out was a factory Porsche driver int he 60's and he tasked the class with drawing out the complete plans for an F-16 manually using a bunch of old school tools, including the ever important French Curves, because he wanted us to feel what we were creating. He was right in that doing everything on the computer is absolutely precise, but that in working solely on a computer, you wouldn't feel the relation from one line flowing into another the way you would if you drew it by hand.

However, once we finished those plans, he had us redraw the entire thing in the now antiquated Autocad of the day to show us that while a computer is the superior method, knowing how to do things manually allows your brain to process information more logistically and organically, which in turn helps you be better designer in the computerized world. As I stated earlier, Newey is Gifted, but there is no way in hell he could design everything to an exacting T manually and his successes have come via the collaboration of an army of talented individuals under his guidance and tutelage.

Regarding Dan & Max, I'm not convinced Dan has opened up a gap to his teammate at all. Not even close IMPO. The way I see it is that Max has the superior touch in more areas, but his all-out ballsy attitude has cost him at times. Once he learns to bide his time in certain situations, I think Dan has no shot at besting Max. Dan is an excellent driver but I think he receives far too much hype over his terrible dive bombs which have forced other drivers to take evasive action to avoid a collision that would end their race. I think in 2014 Dan looked better than Seb for several reasons, and Seb falling out of love with the team and the car being vastly different from what he was accustomed to for almost 5 years, dropping down in performance, while for Dan it was a major step up in performance from the Toro Rosso he drover for a few seasons and he was able to have a better feel in the cockpit compared to Seb finding the car lacking and therefore not feeling confident driving it.

I just don't see Dan as an elite driver yet and enter his current teammate, he's being shown up. I fully expect that sooner rather than later Max will be Red Bull's clear #1 driver, possibly by or before mid season even. I don't think either Seb or Lewis fear Dan one bit and this year's Vettel would invite a challenge from Dan and from what he's showed us, Lewis hasn't been afraid of anyone ever and he is confident that he is the best F1 driver and can best anyone else over a season. The 2 guys in F1 he'd have the toughest time besting are Vettel and Alonso and I'm sure he'd say so himself. Bottas thus far is keeping him honest but the season is long so time will tell how good Bottas is.

Where Dan will go in 2018, I see 2 serious options… Re-Up with his current team, or what I think is more likely, given he is a red blooded Italian… replacing Kimi at Ferrari.I've not heard anything linking Dan to McLaren as of yet, but who knows. I certainly doubt that one, but I can definitely see him at Ferrari next year. And if he leaves, who then would be called up for the 2nd seat at Red Bull?… Kvyat or Sainz?… or would they be ballsy enough to put Gasly in that seat over either of them?

Have to admit that I'm happy to see Red Bull 'behind' - after the heir killed a man in his car/tried to blame an employee/is still enjoying his privileged lifestyle, as if nothing had happened.

What's this?

Google it. The facts aren't hard to find.

You have to remember that there are two owners of Red Bull, hence two potential lines of 'heirs'. The one involved in all of that crap is from the Thai side, which has zero to do with Red Bull Racing as far as I'm aware.

As far as ultimate pace is concerned, Redbull is done for the season. You cannot get on top of 1.5+ second time difference to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes in a given year. That is impossible task.They are behind in all departments including aero, chassis and little bit in engine dept as well.With the pace of Ferrari and Mercedes development this season, it wont be possible to catch them. They will obviously try to improve this car but they need to start looking at fundamental differences between their current car and that of Mercedes and Ferrari and concentrate on 2018 car early.

I will shave my head if RedBull becomes faster than both Merc and Ferrari or even on par with them this year.

As far as ultimate pace is concerned, Redbull is done for the season. You cannot get on top of 1.5+ second time difference to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes in a given year. That is impossible task.They are behind in all departments including aero, chassis and little bit in engine dept as well.With the pace of Ferrari and Mercedes development this season, it wont be possible to catch them. They will obviously try to improve this car but they need to start looking at fundamental differences between their current car and that of Mercedes and Ferrari and concentrate on 2018 car early.

I will shave my head if RedBull becomes faster than both Merc and Ferrari or even on par with them this year.

The engine is the main reason for the difference.Even with a chassis that is not as good, they still can't run the level of downforce as Ferrari or Merc can.So if the engine update gets Renault on par with the others, then I think a 1 second gain is definitely possible.

As far as ultimate pace is concerned, Redbull is done for the season. You cannot get on top of 1.5+ second time difference to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes in a given year. That is impossible task.They are behind in all departments including aero, chassis and little bit in engine dept as well.With the pace of Ferrari and Mercedes development this season, it wont be possible to catch them. They will obviously try to improve this car but they need to start looking at fundamental differences between their current car and that of Mercedes and Ferrari and concentrate on 2018 car early.

I will shave my head if RedBull becomes faster than both Merc and Ferrari or even on par with them this year.

As far as ultimate pace is concerned, Redbull is done for the season. You cannot get on top of 1.5+ second time difference to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes in a given year. That is impossible task.They are behind in all departments including aero, chassis and little bit in engine dept as well.With the pace of Ferrari and Mercedes development this season, it wont be possible to catch them. They will obviously try to improve this car but they need to start looking at fundamental differences between their current car and that of Mercedes and Ferrari and concentrate on 2018 car early.

I will shave my head if RedBull becomes faster than both Merc and Ferrari or even on par with them this year.

Last season they went from being 1.5 seconds behind Mercedes in Russia to winning in Spain (granted that one was on the back of the two Mercs crashing into each other) and taking pole in Monaco, and spent quite a good chunk of the European season splitting the Mercs.

As far as ultimate pace is concerned, Redbull is done for the season. You cannot get on top of 1.5+ second time difference to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes in a given year. That is impossible task.They are behind in all departments including aero, chassis and little bit in engine dept as well.With the pace of Ferrari and Mercedes development this season, it wont be possible to catch them. They will obviously try to improve this car but they need to start looking at fundamental differences between their current car and that of Mercedes and Ferrari and concentrate on 2018 car early.

I will shave my head if RedBull becomes faster than both Merc and Ferrari or even on par with them this year.

Last season they went from being 1.5 seconds behind Mercedes in Russia to winning in Spain (granted that one was on the back of the two Mercs crashing into each other) and taking pole in Monaco, and spent quite a good chunk of the European season splitting the Mercs.

As far as ultimate pace is concerned, Redbull is done for the season. You cannot get on top of 1.5+ second time difference to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes in a given year. That is impossible task.They are behind in all departments including aero, chassis and little bit in engine dept as well.With the pace of Ferrari and Mercedes development this season, it wont be possible to catch them. They will obviously try to improve this car but they need to start looking at fundamental differences between their current car and that of Mercedes and Ferrari and concentrate on 2018 car early.

I will shave my head if RedBull becomes faster than both Merc and Ferrari or even on par with them this year.

Last season they went from being 1.5 seconds behind Mercedes in Russia to winning in Spain (granted that one was on the back of the two Mercs crashing into each other) and taking pole in Monaco, and spent quite a good chunk of the European season splitting the Mercs.

They are further behind this season. More than 1.7 seconds. And these cars are already faster and getting faster. Splitting or beating Mercs last year was down to one of the driver making mistake or crashing out or having reliability issues. Barring 1 or 2 circuits, nobody was really close to them in out and out pace.

And remember, they couldnt come close to beating Mercedes last year. What makes you think they will this year? They had 2 wins last year, both of them coming when either one or both Mercs had retired by tripping over each other or due to some other reason. Most of their podiums too came when one of the Mercs messed up the start or some other way.

And Mercedes still soundly beat them. They were never in position to fight for wins consistently on pace against Mercedes. Having odd race where being competitive is not catching Mercedes. And with bigger gap this year, they are not going to come close to beating either Mercedes or Ferrari or both.

Only time I see them getting podium (forget wins) is when Ferrari and Mercedes trip over themselves, have reliability issue or crash out.