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Before you go off again you might consider this - there is little that I haven't experienced in life, from being very poor & unwanted to choosing where I would put my experience to work. The trip on the turnip truck has been long & eventful. One thing I figured out, on my own, was that too many guarantees lead to sloth. I am no fan of unions, as I believe their bureaucracy is probably more crooked than any politico that comes down the pike. But enjoy your SEIU friends, at least we know where you're coming from .

Another example of your limited knowledge or effort to research a little before typing. We are not a true union...actually, we're an association. We can't strike, have sick outs, or manipulate the city for any benefit we would prefer. We can meet at the table to discuss our desires for inclusions in the contract. Rest assured, these negotiations mainly include maintaining safety issues provided by manpower and trying to keep our insurance from going through the roof. Just a little history for you Marv, we didn't receive a pay increase for 10 years from '82 - '92. This while the private sector was getting their usual bumps. I certainly don't harbor any bad feelings for those that were receiving their increases....that was simply a bad time for us...mainly due to the cities leadership at the time. With that said, if you'd like you're welcome to hop on your turnip truck and head down south to ride along with me and experience my "real job".

Thanks Marv, I will....BTW, the deferred comp you mentioned is an option for those that want to put away more. Myself, I didn't get much of a chance. I didn't have the extra income to allow for increased investments.....instead, I put away the $$ to put my son through college and afford my wife staying home. As far as SS...we (HFD) don't contribute, so I won't be benefitting from that program. As I said earlier, not all Firefighters, Police Officers, or Teachers fit into the mold you and others have forged. In fact, you are a prime example of the problem with this notion....the idea that all those serving in the public sector are getting rich.....if you only knew.

Woe is me - I just didn't have the money - had to help Jr get a college Education - for your info 3 of my 4 sons graduated from college & own their own businesses, All on their own dime, as did I. Wasn't that hard & prepared them for real life where they get to deal with those feasting on the public teat.

Originally Posted by Chris Miller

In California while working in public sector you don't pay into SS and you don't receive SS benefits when we retire. Even it you work in the private sector for 20+ and have 20yrs in the public sector you do not receive the total SS benefits that you would have they are reduced significantly. Yes we can contribute OUR money to a 401k of 457 just like you can but our employers do not match the contribution.

Soooooooo - neither of you get the benefit of the worlds greatest Ponzi scheme known as SS, where you & your employer are legally obligated to put 15.3% of your income into a general pot for the government to mismanage? Makes Tim's measly 8% for a Generous pension look like a great return. That's really too bad that neither of you have 1st hand knowledge of how that program operates . Don't believe a 401K is such a big deal, unless you have control over fund allocation with good choices it also is a money loser.

But did manage to put the maximum required into SS for 33 years & have my writeoff years taken by being a paperboy & all the other jobs I held before reaching maximum earning capacity.

Originally Posted by Tim Thomas

Another example of your limited knowledge or effort to research a little before typing. We are not a true union...actually, we're an association. We can't strike, have sick outs, or manipulate the city for any benefit we would prefer. We can meet at the table to discuss our desires for inclusions in the contract. Rest assured, these negotiations mainly include maintaining safety issues provided by manpower and trying to keep our insurance from going through the roof. Just a little history for you Marv, we didn't receive a pay increase for 10 years from '82 - '92. This while the private sector was getting their usual LUMPS. I certainly don't harbor any bad feelings for those that were receiving their increases....that was simply a bad time for us...mainly due to the cities leadership at the time. With that said, if you'd like you're welcome to hop on your turnip truck and head down south to ride along with me and experience my "real job".

So you're saying there is no binding arbitration? But I am familiar with guilds, associations, etc which are all Unions by a different name. Like Sarge I have done more than my share of negotiating, understand compounding of expenses & the like, but unlike Sarge my goal was protecting the taxpayer.

Don't believe the 82-92 years were all that great - at the big kite factory we had to layoff some very talented engineers due to lack of work, again a concept you would not understand .

Woe is me - I just didn't have the money - had to help Jr get a college Education - for your info 3 of my 4 sons graduated from college & own their own businesses, All on their own dime, as did I. Wasn't that hard & prepared them for real life where they get to deal with those feasting on the public teat.

Soooooooo - neither of you get the benefit of the worlds greatest Ponzi scheme known as SS, where you & your employer are legally obligated to put 15.3% of your income into a general pot for the government to mismanage? Makes Tim's measly 8% for a Generous pension look like a great return. That's really too bad that neither of you have 1st hand knowledge of how that program operates . Don't believe a 401K is such a big deal, unless you have control over fund allocation with good choices it also is a money loser.

But did manage to put the maximum required into SS for 33 years & have my writeoff years taken by being a paperboy & all the other jobs I held before reaching maximum earning capacity.

So you're saying there is no binding arbitration? But I am familiar with guilds, associations, etc which are all Unions by a different name. Like Sarge I have done more than my share of negotiating, understand compounding of expenses & the like, but unlike Sarge my goal was protecting the taxpayer.

Don't believe the 82-92 years were all that great - at the big kite factory we had to layoff some very talented engineers due to lack of work, again a concept you would not understand .

Nope, no binding arbitration...and when did I say "woe is me"?....you goober! Sounds like you're the one wanting all the acknowledgement....perhaps you spent just a little too much time on the teat yourself. Have you not got the coddling you feel you deserve? Well here goes...soak it up you big V!....Sounds like you got everything figured out....gosh, if we could all be like you!!...seeing how myself and the others you've lashed out at as being on the "public teat" have never given anything to society, we should all be indebted to you.....the all knowing that has seen and done it all! Thanks Marv! BTW, my son graduated A&M and went to Medical School and currently runs his own practice....I'm sure it's petty next to The Marv and co.'s accomplishments...also, the offer still stands...anytime you'd like to head down and catch a seat, I'll make sure there's plastic on it for ya!

Soooooooo - neither of you get the benefit of the worlds greatest Ponzi scheme known as SS, where you & your employer are legally obligated to put 15.3% of your income into a general pot for the government to mismanage? Makes Tim's measly 8% for a Generous pension look like a great return. That's really too bad that neither of you have 1st hand knowledge of how that program operates . Don't believe a 401K is such a big deal, unless you have control over fund allocation with good choices it also is a money loser.

I did not realize that engineering was a profession that had union representation.

SPEEA - Seattle Professional Engineering Employees Association which was just that until others, not engineers, were allowed to join the ranks. A concept that I voted against, which though close, passed.

The engineers were fairly passive negotiators, they had their responsibilities which were quite fulfilling & the company took very good care of them under Bill Allen. Being a Lead Engineer in that climate of excellence was in itself a reward. As you are aware, they seem to have an issue with getting anything done in a timely manner today & have had for several years.

It was not until TA Wilson, founder of SPEEA & a fellow engineer became Chairman that engineers began to get the shaft. This culminated in the longest strike in US history of white collar employees a few years back. It is a union today with the same name, just not what it was when I was there. Mostly run by the lightly educated .

Rest assured that if those on the public teat had to deal with "for profit" negotiators there would be few fiscal problems in state & local government .

I guess that every time a call for service was placed for fire or police a resident was charged we could be for profit. Could you imagine the cost that a single family resident fire would cost the home owner. Or when a heart attack was suffered the family would not call for help because of the possible cost if it was not a true emergency?

Our pensions were negotiated and we didn't receive COLA's for many yrs. One of the reasons we received our current pension was because PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) investment were doing well state, county, and cities were not making contributions. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up. This is the nature of collective bargaining. The cost to a city or municipality is no higher than if a comparable salary increase were negotiated in place of retirement benefits. Benefits are paid by the retirement system, which is not a government agency, from employee and employer contributions while the employee was working, and from market growth and interest from investment of those contributions. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions. PERS is the single largest investor in the stock market, and their investments have beaten the market even during recent economic downturns. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays "catch up" arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality's budget. This occurs when investments return less than actuarial predicted. What is NOT reported is that during economic upswings (most of the past 15 years) employers often paid NOTHING into the retirement system, because investment returns exceeded expectations.

The VAST majority of high pensions ($100,000+) are received by top level management - not ordinary working folks like line firefighters, police officers, nurses or teachers.

I guess that every time a call for service was placed for fire or police a resident was charged we could be for profit. Could you imagine the cost that a single family resident fire would cost the home owner. Or when a heart attack was suffered the family would not call for help because of the possible cost if it was not a true emergency?

Our pensions were negotiated and we didn't receive COLA's for many yrs. One of the reasons we received our current pension was because PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) investment were doing well state, county, and cities were not making contributions. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up. This is the nature of collective bargaining. The cost to a city or municipality is no higher than if a comparable salary increase were negotiated in place of retirement benefits. Benefits are paid by the retirement system, which is not a government agency, from employee and employer contributions while the employee was working, and from market growth and interest from investment of those contributions. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions. PERS is the single largest investor in the stock market, and their investments have beaten the market even during recent economic downturns. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays "catch up" arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality's budget. This occurs when investments return less than actuarial predicted. What is NOT reported is that during economic upswings (most of the past 15 years) employers often paid NOTHING into the retirement system, because investment returns exceeded expectations.

The VAST majority of high pensions ($100,000+) are received by top level management - not ordinary working folks like line firefighters, police officers, nurses or teachers.

Well said......BTW Marv, what was the office you ran for? Just curious.