But we're not counting the number of rotations. What is counted is the degree of rotation, which is less easy to discern.

Do you think it is possible that someday somebody invents some small device that skaters attach on their blade and it goes on when they leave the ice and goes off when they impact the ice and tells how many degrees were rotated? Then maybe all this controversy will be able to rest in peace.

I suspect it may not be random. Actually by analyzing statistics so far we may be able to find some interesting result about technical callers, for example, who had more controversial calls and so on.

That might be the next task of excellent statisticians on this board... Mathman just to name one. Hint hint.

Seriously though, I feel like as fans of figure skating we should all band together and try to make it a better sport for all of us to follow. This is why calling out inconsistent judging and things like this, especially under the very system which aimed to stamp out these flaws, is so valuable. It may be awfully idealistic of me to think that we could have any significant impact on the ISU, but who knows? We're part of quite a big forum.

Shoot. If Kim's 3-3 is as fine as it was today, but still DG tomorrow, I will take a break from figure skating for a year or so and skip the Olympic Games altogether. I'm getting rather sick of this. First the 3F-3T, now this? Kim's 3-3 combos are one of the best in the entire history of ladies figure skating. I don't get where all of these "e" "!" and DGs are coming from.

That might be the next task of excellent statisticians on this board... Mathman just to name one. Hint hint.

Seriously though, I feel like as fans of figure skating we should all band together and try to make it a better sport for all of us to follow. This is why calling out inconsistent judging and things like this, especially under the very system which aimed to stamp out these flaws, is so valuable. It may be awfully idealistic of me to think that we could have any significant impact on the ISU, but who knows? We're part of quite a big forum.

In the meantime, increasing the number of tech callers and judges would do good.

Shoot. If Kim's 3-3 is as fine as it was today, but still DG tomorrow, I will take a break from figure skating for a year or so and skip the Olympic Games altogether. I'm getting rather sick of this. First the 3F-3T, now this? Kim's 3-3 combos are one of the best in the entire history of ladies figure skating. I don't get where all of these "e" "!" and DGs are coming from.

I know. That's exactly how I feel.

SHOW ME A BETTER 3-3 COMBO PLEASE, then maybe I understand.
Trust me, at SA, Yuna was BETTER than most of the Men there, if not all. Before seeing her live, I loved Yuna, but after seeing her, I was just speechless. I don't know if we will ever see another skater like this. People there (No, I am not talking about Koreans, I am talking about WHITE AMERICANS) said Yuna brought the popularity back to skating. Seeing her treated like this breaks my heart. :sob:

I couldn't resist but to point out that the tech who gave her downgrade was the same one who gave Yuna "e." If no one sees it but that one person (and yes also that another tech referee being there)........ it's just fishy. sigh.

There is two other people on the tech panel. This isn't the only time that Yuna has received edge calls or downgrades...

Originally Posted by figurejennah

Now, everyone says she has some mental issues. I just HATE seeing this.

Yes, but that's sports. It sounds to me that Yuna needs to get a tougher mental game. In Paris the ice through her off, in Skate America it was her skates, and here, as another poster said, she said a fall in the warm up was hard to shake. IMO, she needs to accept that things don't always go perfectly and in sports you need to work through adversity.

Ugh, I understand how you feel if you were Scottish, Korean and Japanese! (My Korean and Japanese friends, they hang out well but whenever history comes up, they are like cats and dogs... lol -- which I perfectly understand why.)

I hate to bring Korea/Japan thing in here, but no one can deny the fact that nationality does play some tricks in figure skating. That's why we have a new system, and we continue to question if it is working.

I couldn't resist but to point out that the tech who gave her downgrade was the same one who gave Yuna "e." If no one sees it but that one person says OMG Yuna sucks! let's give her all these downgrades and edge calls! (and yes also that another tech referee being there)........ it's just fishy. sigh. (I will go with the majority here and if 10 say Yuna's jumps are perfect vs 1 who says she's wrong, then I will say that 1 person is wrong.)

I saw the youtube clip, and saw it many times, and still with my head, I can't accept that downgrade. We all know what happens after that one small incident. Before Yuna received "e," her 3flip success rate was almost 100%. Now, everyone says she has some mental issues. I just HATE seeing this.

Ugh, I understand how you feel if you were Scottish, Korean and Japanese! (My Korean and Japanese friends, they hang out well but whenever history comes up, they are like cats and dogs... lol -- which I perfectly understand why.)

I hate to bring Korea/Japan thing in here, but no one can deny the fact that nationality does play some tricks in figure skating. That's why we have a new system, and we continue to question if it is working.

I couldn't resist but to point out that the tech who gave her downgrade was the same one who gave Yuna "e." If no one sees it but that one person says OMG Yuna sucks! let's give her all these downgrades and edge calls! (and yes also that another tech referee being there)........ it's just fishy. sigh. (I will go with the majority here and if 10 say Yuna's jumps are perfect vs 1 who says she's wrong, then I will say that 1 person is wrong.)

I saw the youtube clip, and saw it many times, and still with my head, I can't accept that downgrade. We all know what happens after that one small incident. Before Yuna received "e," her 3flip success rate was almost 100%. Now, everyone says she has some mental issues. I just HATE seeing this.

I agree with you. Nationality, either for or against an athlete, continues to be a topic of much debate in the figure skating community. And we're not only talking Japanese and Koreans here, we're talking about everyone, including the athletes that may be advantaged or disadvantaged by poor judging.

I hate how the one flip call that Yu-Na received is continuing to wreak havoc in her mind, to the point where now she has missed 3 flips this season - once at TEB, a fall at SA and now a completely popped one. Believe me, if this was done to Mao, Miki, Ashley, Caroline, whoever, then I would still protest as vehemently. This is not right for there to be such inconsistent adjudication. It really makes me sad.

Could you explain? I'm not sure if I understand the difference between degree of rotation and number of rotations.

When a figure skater jumps, he/she rarely (if ever) gets the whole 360-degree rotation on the last rotation. According to the ISU, the skater must not be fewer than 90-degrees (a quarter-turn) short on the last rotation for the jump to not be downgraded.

What is so debateable about UR calls is that it is very difficult to objectively determine with the naked eye (and even with slow-mo) if a jump is, say, 88-degrees short of rotation as opposed to 92-degrees short. Plus, when we have to make judgment calls on such minute details, factors such as the different camera angles (or wonky landings, etc) can also make a big difference in how one perceives the degree of rotation.

There is two other people on the tech panel. This isn't the only time that Yuna has received edge calls or downgrades...

Yes, but that's sports. It sounds to me that Yuna needs to get a tougher mental game. In Paris the ice through her off, in Skate America it was her skates, and here, as another poster said, she said a fall in the warm up was hard to shake. IMO, she needs to accept that things don't always go perfectly and in sports you need to work through adversity.

Puhleease. Sorry my wording was wrong. I'm also an American national, but ethnicity-wise I'm Scottish, Korean and Japanese. There are so many hostile and stupid Japanese-Americans/Korean-Americans that spew out silly garb. I just hate the fact that you have to bring up a Japanese lady must be behind some kind of reason that Yuna got DG. I don't like the call either. And I'm not talking how people get GOEs or not. I'm saying you're ridiculous in insinuating that a call that you don't agree on has to have some kind of ethnically-driven motive. Yuna clearly didn't deserve a +1 GOE for her 1st combo at SA in LP '09, but just because one judge had strange marks I didn't assume, oh the person must be Korean. I'm making an analogy here, but that's what you essentially did. I've gone through this Korean vs Japanese my whole life & I'm frankly so sick of it.

Thank you. figurejennah, you're getting really repetitive and the more you speak about some competition from a couple of seasons ago the more irrelevant you become. And the person you're referring to wasn't even involved tonight.

Btw Miki is quoted saying how she thought her marks were too high. I personally thought she skated really well tonight (3/3 would've been awesome) but it appears that's how she feels.

I do think the UR calls for jumps that aren't obviously underrotated suck. Like Rachael's /3toe at last season's WTT and Fumie's 3flip at Skate America SP this season.

When a figure skater jumps, he/she rarely (if ever) gets the whole 360-degree rotation on the last rotation. According to the ISU, the skater must not be fewer than 90-degrees (a quarter-turn) short on the last rotation for the jump to not be downgraded.

What is so debateable about UR calls is that it is very difficult to objectively determine with the naked eye (and even with slow-mo) if a jump is, say, 78-degrees short of rotation as opposed to 92-degrees short. Plus, when we have to make judgment calls on such minute details, factors such as the different camera angles (or wonky landings, etc) can also make a big difference in how one perceives the degree of rotation.

Thank you for that clarification.

Isn't it, however, possible for us to be able to improve (not necessarily perfect) the quality of judging by giving the tech panel the technological means of assessing UR's?