1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

God is the author of life, and He has given every single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry. (The evidence Bible)

By your own moral standards:

A couple in a stable long term relationship fall pregnant. There are no significant health concerns for either mother or baby. Would you recommend abortion?

If you would not, then you've just allowed any of the following to be born:

If you're going to try and use consequentialist standards to justify something, then you have to admit that in these 8 cases, abortion would have been justified and that has absolutely jack to do with the made up words of your imaginary sky daddy.

The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.

China and India both have populations that exceed one billion people.

It sounds like contraceptive methods haven't worked out very well there and require a renewed emphasis towards birth control. Your focus here is on the abortion of unwanted pregnancies that you refer to as "unborn children," consider the tragedy of children actually born in China who are abandoned on the side of the road because they are female.

All of these are tragedies.

Culturally, birth control is almost impossible in India. The man decides.. and the man wants a son. Wives sometimes can sneak, but the consequences can be very severe if she is found out by her husband or his familiy.

premio53 wrote:God is the author of life, and He has given every single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry. (The evidence Bible)

Your morals are entirely your own business but you wont find any support for your views in the Bible , abortion is not mentioned at all . You will of course argue that it comes under the subject of murder but I would like to know from where you draw the definition of a living being . The Bible does not say , The Torah defines life as half way out of the birth canal ( and is specific in allowing certain abortions up to this point ) whilst current secular science is far more pro life in its guidance than Jewish law at the time of Moses.Doesn't your good book mention something about taking God's name in vain ?

You are dead wrong!

Job 31:15 - Did not He who made me in the womb make them?Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?

Jeremiah 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;Before you were born I sanctified you;I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Taking the life of the unborn is clearly murder. The unborn child was granted equal protection under the law; if he lost his life, the one who caused his death must lose his own life:

Exodus 21:22,23 - “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,..."

"I know abortion isn't right, but if not legal, we'll have all those poor girls slipping off to see those butchers in the dark alleys. At least this way they get counseling."

You're right. Think of all those poor murderers who are condemned to slip around and kill in secret. We ought to legalize murder too! Then they can kill in a nice clean safe environment. They'll be protected from getting splashed with blood that might contain diseases, and we can offer counseling so they don't have any post murder trauma from the choices they've made.

When a nation violates God's moral Law, it no longer makes any distinction between good and evil. Abortion, pornography, homosexuality, adultery, lying and stealing become accepted parts of its culture.

Abortion, like theft, murder, prostitution and drugs, is going to happen, whether legal or illegal. Suggesting that it is against God doesn't mean shit. Most people believe in God at their convenience, if ever. Making it illegal just increases the risk involved.

Forced abortion is another story. If you would like to quote from the Bible, perhaps you should start at the top: Do onto others as you would have others do onto you.

You wouldn't want others to force their beliefs and their decisions on you and in doing so you are breaking the law which governs all others. So stop being a dick. You have your opinions, don't impose them on others and don't call others murderers for disagreeing you fucking hypocrite.

Hey Mets,I don't entirely agree with all of your thesis but I just wanted to say you are very brave to present such controversial ideas on this forum knowing the flak you would receive from the usual quarters...

_sabotage_ wrote:Abortion, like theft, murder, prostitution and drugs, is going to happen, whether legal or illegal. Suggesting that it is against God doesn't mean shit. Most people believe in God at their convenience, if ever. Making it illegal just increases the risk involved.

Forced abortion is another story. If you would like to quote from the Bible, perhaps you should start at the top: Do onto others as you would have others do onto you.

You wouldn't want others to force their beliefs and their decisions on you and in doing so you are breaking the law which governs all others. So stop being a dick. You have your opinions, don't impose them on others and don't call others murderers for disagreeing you fucking hypocrite.

Tell that to an innocent unborn being ripped apart in his mother's womb by greedy doctors and thrown away like a piece of trash!

A 20 year-old pregnant girl gave birth to a boy in the back of a tradesman's motorized cart this week. She then covered him with some litter found in the back and abandoned him naked in the cold. The tradesman found him an hour later and the child was dead within six hours. Good thing he wasn't aborted, we wouldn't be able to prosecute the highly intelligent mother for murder.

I am a parent and would do anything for my son. A few years ago, my wife came down with something and received some medication at the hospital. A few days later, we realized she wasn't sick but pregnant. We asked about the medication and were told we would have to abort the child due to the medicine that she was given. I was furious, a married woman in the prime of her child bearing years was given medicine that would utterly ruin the fetus without consideration that the symptoms could be pregnancy. If we hadn't aborted that child, then we wouldn't have our son. You can make the case that we should have proceeded with the pregnancy regardless of the outcome, but this desire to do anything for your child may include making the decision to protect him/her and provide the best possible life for them by ending it. You may think it isn't our decision to make, that it was a sacred God given existence and you may be right. It is me that will face that, and not you. You can spend your time explaining why you tried to enforce your beliefs on others and I can explain why I ended a life prematurely.

Metsfanmax wrote:(although this is largely hypothetical as I do not intend to have children).

That's a real shame. You should father many, many children. You know, do your part in balancing out all the stupid people that shouldn't breed.

Stupid people like a great Evangelist who continued to breed like a rabbit even though he's dooming each subsequent offspring to a life of poverty and the perils that go with it?

I fully agree. Free abortions under 12 weeks. Free sterilization for anyone that wants. Free birth control for any that asks with no questions or critique.

We have fucked this planet, raped the oceans, and have way too many mouths to feed. Try to restrain the population with as much morality as possible, but we need to lighten the ship or we are ALL going to fucking starve to death. Well....that is if we are lucky. Nothing breeds civil unrest and war like a famine.

Can you really believe that the world would be a better place with an additional 336 million mouths to feed?????

JRock

Oh yeah.......and throw these guys a few bucks if you can afford it.They are doing more to help eliminate social decay and child suffering than anyone else I know.http://www.projectprevention.org/

Save the World and off yourself JR! I can think of no other act that could be more selfless. After all, you've participated in "fucking the planet" and raping the oceans and you are yet another mouth to feed. We have to lighten the ship after all, might as well start with you.

patches70 wrote:Save the World and off yourself JR! I can think of no other act that could be more selfless. After all, you've participated in "fucking the planet" and raping the oceans and you are yet another mouth to feed. We have to lighten the ship after all, might as well start with you.

patches70 wrote:Save the World and off yourself JR! I can think of no other act that could be more selfless. After all, you've participated in "fucking the planet" and raping the oceans and you are yet another mouth to feed. We have to lighten the ship after all, might as well start with you.

I'm nominating patches too, and the rest of us. We'll just make the voluntary involuntary as well.

--Andy

haha! Nice organization. I have no qualms with it. So long as things are voluntary. I'm even all for sterilization, birth control and if people want abortions, I won't stop them. But contrary to what JR seems to think, there is no such thing as "free" abortions, birth control or abortions. No one should be involuntarily forced to have such things, nor forced to perform such things, nor forced to pay for such things for other people.

Are there abortion doctors who will perform abortions and sterilizations for no payment at all?Are the medical supplies required produced and then given away at no cost?Are birth control methods (excluding abstinence) produced and have no associated cost to them?

You want an abortion, pay for it yourself, don't force other people to pay for it.Birth control, sterilizations, go for, just don't take food and resources from my mouth to pay for it.It's wasteful. Can't afford such things? Find people like JR and organizations like Andy's who will gladly contribute to such a cause. But don't force any who do not wish to participate to contribute.

Indeed, there is no such things as "free stuff". Someone has to pay. Thus, I say JR should voluntarily pay for abortions for anyone who wants them and stay out of everyone else's lives and wallets. I can think of only one more selfless act.

chang50 wrote:Hey Mets,I don't entirely agree with all of your thesis but I just wanted to say you are very brave to present such controversial ideas on this forum knowing the flak you would receive from the usual quarters...

Thank you. I firmly believe in what I say, and I think that anyone who has strong opinions on their philosophy should not keep it to themselves just because people might not like them as much. Ideas are too important to stay hidden.

The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.

China and India both have populations that exceed one billion people.

It sounds like contraceptive methods haven't worked out very well there and require a renewed emphasis towards birth control. Your focus here is on the abortion of unwanted pregnancies that you refer to as "unborn children," consider the tragedy of children actually born in China who are abandoned on the side of the road because they are female.

They're only unwanted because of governmental mandates of limiting families to 1 child.

Frigidus wrote:For the record, Metsfanmax does not represent the views of everyone in favor of allowing abortion. Just thought I should point that out.

you are correct, most pro-choice advocates are not intellectually honest or capable enough to take their views to their logical conclusion (that newborn children and often other types of fully-grown humans should be able to be murdered)

natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?

Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"

Frigidus wrote:For the record, Metsfanmax does not represent the views of everyone in favor of allowing abortion. Just thought I should point that out.

you are correct, most pro-choice advocates are not intellectually honest or capable enough to take their views to their logical conclusion (that newborn children and often other types of fully-grown humans should be able to be murdered)

Much like how most pro-life advocates can't formulate logical arguments without utilizing hyperbole and strawmen.

Frigidus wrote:For the record, Metsfanmax does not represent the views of everyone in favor of allowing abortion. Just thought I should point that out.

you are correct, most pro-choice advocates are not intellectually honest or capable enough to take their views to their logical conclusion (that newborn children and often other types of fully-grown humans should be able to be murdered)

chang50 wrote:Hey Mets,I don't entirely agree with all of your thesis but I just wanted to say you are very brave to present such controversial ideas on this forum knowing the flak you would receive from the usual quarters...

Thank you. I firmly believe in what I say, and I think that anyone who has strong opinions on their philosophy should not keep it to themselves just because people might not like them as much. Ideas are too important to stay hidden.

Let me add my appreciation. Despite that I vehemently disagree with your position, I respect it and won't denigrate your for it.

Well Mets I have and will. I think that you are a pussy, a hypocrite and a false believer. You may think it's cool to call people murderers, insist that it is heaven proclaimed and demand to be the decider for us all, but you sure as shit aren't. You read the Bible in a way to support your own views and wash your hands of the rest, you make yourself open to political manipulation by being a single issue voter and leave us stuck with the Ws of the world, you criminalize millions and hope to enforce hardship on millions more. Eat a dick. Choke on it.

_sabotage_ wrote:Well Mets I have and will. I think that you are a pussy, a hypocrite and a false believer. You may think it's cool to call people murderers, insist that it is heaven proclaimed and demand to be the decider for us all, but you sure as shit aren't. You read the Bible in a way to support your own views and wash your hands of the rest, you make yourself open to political manipulation by being a single issue voter and leave us stuck with the Ws of the world, you criminalize millions and hope to enforce hardship on millions more. Eat a dick. Choke on it.

I am not sure where this came from. I am an atheist and quite liberal.

_sabotage_ wrote:Abortion, like theft, murder, prostitution and drugs, is going to happen, whether legal or illegal. Suggesting that it is against God doesn't mean shit. Most people believe in God at their convenience, if ever. Making it illegal just increases the risk involved.

Forced abortion is another story. If you would like to quote from the Bible, perhaps you should start at the top: Do onto others as you would have others do onto you.

You wouldn't want others to force their beliefs and their decisions on you and in doing so you are breaking the law which governs all others. So stop being a dick. You have your opinions, don't impose them on others and don't call others murderers for disagreeing you fucking hypocrite.

Tell that to an innocent unborn being ripped apart in his mother's womb by greedy doctors and thrown away like a piece of trash!

In China.. you have a point.

In the US, Europe.. you are an ignorant jerk who thinks a little bit of knowledge gives you the right to pass judgement on people and situations you are just too damned LAZY to fully understand or even think about. And don't you DARE claim that you are representing Christ with your ignorant Blather.

Posting stupid pictures just shows your laziness. Real honest debaters look up real facts, don't cherry pick or use stupid attempts to shock. No one ELSE here is ignorant of what abortion is.. YOU are ignorant of why someone, anyone would ever choose that option. The TRUTH Is no one sane really does it if they feel they have other, better options.