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Re: Confused

While you need to decide for yourself what treatment free means for you, this forum has settled on a definition of treatment free. Under the forum rules powdered sugar shakes and essential oils are treatments.

"The users of this forum have decided to agree on a single definition for "Treatment-Free Beekeeping" for the sake of context in posts and threads in this forum.

Treatment: A substance introduced by the beekeeper into the hive with the intent of killing, repelling, or inhibiting a pest or disease afflicting the bees."

Re: Confused

Agreed, that is the definition here, but decide for yourself what your management philosophy will be. If you want to be treatment free, be prepared for colonies to fail. It is not as simple as not treating bees, and collecting honey.

Re: Confused

As mentioned, the forum definition is for the forum. It is not a national standard or a law or rule or anything. It is for here. If I say I keep bees treatment-free, that means I do not use any of the things listed in the Unique Forum Rules. Many people do dip in to the softer treatments. I on the other hand go the other way. I don't use any of the manipulation or management methods either. That's my definition. It fits the forum definition perfectly but goes beyond it as well.

Re: Confused

I really find statements like this frustrating. Replace "treatment free" with "a beekeeper" and this statement is also true. The options aren't:

1) treat and all of your colonies will survive

or

2) don't treat and all of your colonies will die

It would be fair to say that nearly all of the members of my local beekeeping club treat. The club averaged ~50% losses by the April meeting.

This is a classic example of a false dichotomy. In my local club, everyone treats. They still had high losses-- some folks lost most of their hives. And that's here in subtropical Florida, where it didn't even freeze this winter.

Re: Confused

It would be much better stated and accurate by removing the word "all".

The idea very commonly passed around is that by treating, you remove the possibility of bees dying of disease. And if you don't treat, your bees will die. The data shows that if you treat, some of your bees will die. If you don't treat, some of your bees will die. If you have a small number of hives, you risk a greater probability that all or most of your bees will die in any single winter.

If you have good genetics, good conditions, and a good beekeeper, chances are very few of your colonies will die.

If you have bad genetics, poor conditions, and a novice beekeeper, the probability increases correspondingly that you will lose hives in substantial proportions. It is for these reasons why I suggest catching local swarms and buying local nucs to start down the good genetics path. Set up your hives and manage in ways that do not frustrate the bees to help with conditions. And I humbly offer my advice and apiaries to anyone who would ask or visit to learn, to help beekeepers get practiced and mature in their skills.

There is no such thing as luck. There is chance and skill. Chance is what happens to you that is out of your control. Skill is how you've prepared and what you do with it.

In my college days, I said it this way: Chance is the questions on the exam. Skill is the number of answers you have.

Re: Confused

I really find statements like this frustrating. Replace "treatment free" with "a beekeeper" and this statement is also true. The options aren't:

1) treat and all of your colonies will survive

or

2) don't treat and all of your colonies will die

It would be fair to say that nearly all of the members of my local beekeeping club treat. The club averaged ~50% losses by the April meeting.

Ok, than be frustrated, but your interpretation was not what I intended. I did not say that all of the colonies would fail. I did say that there will be failures. It is common to hear so and so say they have been TX free for X number of years and have lost no colonies. It was certainly the impression I got when first starting out. While that may happen, I think it is the minority.

Re: Confused

Originally Posted by RiodeLobo

Ok, than be frustrated, but your interpretation was not what I intended. I did not say that all of the colonies would fail. I did say that there will be failures. It is common to hear so and so say they have been TX free for X number of years and have lost no colonies. It was certainly the impression I got when first starting out. While that may happen, I think it is the minority.

I hear you, but I only see this discouraging sentiment expressed towards people intending to go tx free. It is not expressed in the same way towards other beginners. All beekeepers lose colonies for many reasons.

Re: Confused

To true, and I do not mean for it to be a discouragement. The issue is getting to a point where you are sustainable, with good beekeeping practices, knowledge and experience, bees that are adapted to your environment and express the traits that you desire. I believe it is more likely for those of us who are treatment free to have more losses before we reach that point.

Personally I am still in this phase. This past winter I lost 7 of my 8 colonies, 5 of which were headed by supposed resistant treatment free queens. This year I am restocking as well as putting out swarm traps (in areas that have never seen hived bees) . I am buying northern queens this year from "resistant" stock, as I know of no local source of bees that are not commercial and wintered in California. We will see.

Re: Confused

About 2 hour drive, and 4 months longer growing season. To the west there are bees to be had, but they also have about 3-4 months longer growing season. Both average 6-9 degrees warmer than here. I do not consider any of them local, it is however where I end up buying my packages and nucs.

Re: Confused

Originally Posted by RiodeLobo

Ok, than be frustrated, but your interpretation was not what I intended. I did not say that all of the colonies would fail. I did say that there will be failures. It is common to hear so and so say they have been TX free for X number of years and have lost no colonies. It was certainly the impression I got when first starting out. While that may happen, I think it is the minority.

I got an entirely different impression from my reading, but I did a whole lot it. I learned that if I went treatment free, I would very likely lose my initial colonies, especially if my colonies had poor genetics (non-local, treated packages, etc.) If I want to have bees next year, I have to plan for and expect these losses.

I'm planning to make a nuc from my stronger hive soon, and hope to make another from the other before the summer is out. Of course, none of that is a guarantee that I'll have bees next year, but the brood break should help.

There is some unrealistic promotion of treatment free beekeeping, but I suppose there's even more promotion of the idea that if you just follow all the treatment regimens that conventional beekeepers prescribe, your colonies will survive.

The way I think about it is this: how long can we go on trying to treat the symptoms of unhealthy bees successfully? The treatment free route is not easy, but I see little evidence that the other path is truly sustainable.

Re: Confused

I have been treatment free for ten years and I have lost like.......well, I lost 15 in the first five years, lost five in 2009, lost one last winter, one this winter. And despite characterizations of TF beeks, I never bought bees to replace deadouts, only to expand. I never lost all of them at once and I haven't bought any nucs or packages since 2010.

Re: Confused

>It is common to hear so and so say they have been TX free for X number of years and have lost no colonies.

That is an interesting perception as I can not remember anyone, treatment free or not, saying they have lost no colonies... unless it's a beginner who hasn't had bees more than a year or so...

It is important to pay attention to the actual words, and not just your impression of them...

Well that impression is given all the time, you sure you guys have really been missing it? Here's a random from couple days ago -

Originally Posted by arthur

Since I started in 2007, I never once treated my bees for anything. Helps when you start with stock that isn't treated for mites either (Bee Weaver). Haven't lost a single hive to pestilence. And I don't do small cell either. And I don't do drone frames or anything like that.