I've never had a flu shot, and i haven't had the flu in 20 years, but I've actually been considering getting the H1N1 shot. I have a three-month-old, and if I got her sick and she had to be hospitalized or worse, I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:31 am

zagadkaDARK PAST HAVER

Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 4932
Location: Hous of Gaga

I don't understand how a normal, healthy person dies from the flu. I can see if it was the poo-poo/barf flu and you get horribly dehydrated and maybe live alone. But, with the non-barf flu that has a cough, does it just turn into pneumonia or something more serious?

Not that this is like a huge deal or even a particularly credible source for all I know. Just food for thought. Vaccines can have different and sometimes much more serious (and strange and unpredictable) negative effects than just getting the disease it's supposed to be preventing, which I think is probably most people's conception of what the negative side effects would be.

Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:33 am

cakes

Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2586

i'd guess that you're mostly right, zag, in that the more common official cause of death would be pneumonia or something similar. same is true for a lot of illnesses or diseases. some dieseases don't cause death so much as leave your body open and ready for something like infection or pneumonia that will (basically some form of what aids does on a different scale). i'd guess it's pretty uncommon for a "normal, healthy" person to die from the flu. my personal concern is that i work with people who are at risk. if it weren't for that, i wouldn't bother with these particular ones.

i understand there may be complications for any vaccine, but the incidence is important. not only that it's happened, but when and to whom and how extensively. i don't have the time to look up reports today, but i'd be interested. if the people who developed the flu were at risk already, that's a bit different than lebron james.

as for testing any vaccine (or any treatments), there are always ethical barriers, especially when it comes to kids and babies. it's really unethical to give a baby a vaccine and then expose it to the flu to see if it works. and you probably shouldn't give babies the flu to see if they die, however that has already been observed. pediatrics is rough and i have a lot of respect for them doctors.

medicineman, why only orthopedics? what is it about them that you trust more than a cardiologist? it's all western medicine, no? a broken bone probably heals "better" on it's own than a clogged right atrium...

you can never truely prove what would or would not have happened, only speculate to the best of your ability. i know i say that a lot, but i like to remember to put that out there. it may be in the semantics, but it's important to stress and people get caught up in their views.

Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:31 am

medicinemanHALFLING

Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Iowa City

cakes wrote:

medicineman, why only orthopedics? what is it about them that you trust more than a cardiologist? it's all western medicine, no? a broken bone probably heals "better" on it's own than a clogged right atrium...

you can never truely prove what would or would not have happened, only speculate to the best of your ability. i know i say that a lot, but i like to remember to put that out there. it may be in the semantics, but it's important to stress and people get caught up in their views.

Orthopedic medicine is mechanical. In the end, it's really not that complicated and you don't have to make a lot of assumptions about how the body works as a synergistic entity. You just put the stuff broke back where it should be and then the body takes care of the rest, most of the time. If I knew how to set a bone myself or could somehow put a pin in a broken appendage myself then I would totally shun them too. What makes it different than a clogged right atrium, say, is that something like that develops over time, as a result of lifestyle, generally, although genetics is a factor, and can be prevented the great majority of time by realizing that and living accordingly, at least that is what I believe. Honestly stuff like that should never really happen at all, and I've never known anyone personally who had a serious heart issue whose diet and exercise habits weren't all fucked up. A broken bone is something that happens instantaneously because of some accident and that's what seperates it from health issues that are actually health issues, if you see what I mean. But yes, I completly acknowledge that I am kinda in my own realm with my views here, but that is kinda a part of who I am, hence the name, and they aren't fiin to change much soon.

Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:25 pm

cakes

Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2586

argh. i just typed a whole response and it froze on me.

medicineman wrote: I've never known anyone personally who had a serious heart issue whose diet and exercise habits weren't all fucked up.

sometimes kids are just born with "bad" hearts. it's a good thing you don't know them, but silly to think that something you don't see doesn't exist.

i know you know you're all over the place, and this is pointless, but i'm gonna go on anyway.

an orthopedic issue may be more "solid" but it is certainly not always instantaeous and a heart problem isn't always caused by poor diet over time. there are millions of things that could go wrong that any of these specialists could be involved in. if you get into an accident and break your femur, serious business could go on. what if you sever your femoral artery or find a sharp, impaled object in your side? it's all interwoven, especially when it comes to an instantaneous injury. no way you're going to ask everyone, nurses who aren't orthopedic surgeons included, to leave the room.

it's easy to say you think all doctors suck when you don't need them right then (you personally may for all i know, but i'm speaking to the universal "you" at this point), but you'll probably be pretty thankful western medicine is there when you're dying from that car accident. you may as well sign that DNR form now before they try to do you any good.

Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:32 pm

mancabbage

Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 9267
Location: london

medicineman you a jehovas witness or one of those other crazy religions.. or just a paranoid stoner? Gotta be one of em. Guy i know at an Italian restaurant his dad had a tooth ache for a while, got mad painful but he left it, turned out it was pretty serious and somehow poisoned him, went to his heart and he had a heart attack and was in hospital for months. Do you really think all people with bad heart problems only come about via bad diet? ...really? ... i mean, seriously... :| ?

I still don't understand the reasons behind not wanting your kids vaccinated... seems irresponsible and crazy to me

Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:14 pm

cakes

Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2586

one of the most prominenet debates when it comes to vaccines is between autism and the measles/mumps/rubella shot. i believe there may have been a third factor, like lead, involved in a group of vaccines, but i have to go back and find where i read that.

i think it's hard for people to really know how serious some of these illnesses can be because we never see them any more, but that certainly doesn't mean they're not there. and at the same time, it can be just as hard to justify putting yourself or your children in any danger. the vaccine is the virus after all.