Is the Church supposed to be counter-culturalor a part of the Establishment?

I would be interested in your thoughts on the subject. I am still pondering but it seems that the Church began as a somewhat rebellious expression of faith that rocked the religious and political world of its day. Many of Jesus' sayings could be construed as ones that were

I think that I have been, at least in the past, a proponent of working within the system to effect change - in hindsight I am not sure that is the best avenue. What do you think the church could or should be doing in our present day culture?

Do you think that it is best to try to work within the system or something different? Luther started from within and wound up on the outside.. it seems to be a common pattern. Does anyone know of someone really making significant change from the inside?

He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:3-7,12)

This video is a message from Otis Moss III, the new senior pastor at Trinity Church of Christ.. Barack Obama's church. It is an uplifting message.. one that speaks to the courage to hope again. Hope you enjoy all 8 minutes of it.

I regularly watch a famous TV pastor who uses the the phrase "Holy Spirit of God" or "God's Holy Spirit". I cringe each time I hear it because it subtly communicates the idea that the Holy Spirit is not a person.. the third person of the trinity. I do not want to give an exhaustive study on this but please consider these few verses:

"But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." -John 16:7

Jesus refers to the Spirit as "him".. because He is a person who can comfort and counsel us in a intimately personal way.

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. -Romans 8:26-27

This passage tells us that the Spirit has a mind, He knows God's will and intercedes for us to that end. He is capable of thought and intercession.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. -1Corinthians 12:11

This verse shows us that the Spirit has a will.. He gives gifts as He wills.

Well, I told you that this would not be exhasutive. Let me know if you agree or not.. and feel free to add scriptures to mine or pose alternate views.

This was the song that .. the song that I first sung in April 1976 and ushered me into God's presence and changed my life forever. To God be the glory. Here are the Andre Crouch lyrics:

My Tribute

How can I say thanks for the things You have done for me? Things so undeserved, yet You gave to prove Your love for me; the voices of a million angels could not express my gratitude. All that I am and ever hope to be, I owe it all to Thee.

To God be the glory, to God be the glory, to God be the glory for the things He has done.

With His blood He has saved me, with His power He has raised me; to God be the glory for the things He has done.

Just let me live my life, let it pleasing, Lord to Thee, and if I gain any praise, let it go to Calvary.

about bob

I am married, have two children and two grandchildren. I have worked as a soldier, technician, software designer and a pastor. I am now retired. My purpose in writing here is to share devotional thoughts from the scriptures. Check out the menu and icons above for more info.