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Topic: Validity of Icons (Read 72578 times)

um.. I mean no offense by this, but there was a protestant pastor who attacked the RC saying this..

"If your Icons and statues of Christ are really true, and are worth respecting, how sure are you that what you are depicting is really Christ Himself? Are you sure that that is really how Christ looks like?"

Has anyone have anything to say about this?

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

The point of icons is not that they are physically accurate. Actually in (some??) Orthodox traditions, icons are written to be physically inaccurate.

It is not so much that His skin colour is accurate (as I have seen Ethiopian icons with His skin black), but that the Icon symbolizes that He is watching down us sinners, as we offer our prayers and worship to Him!

As far as I know at least, I'm open to correction.

In Christ,Ivan

« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 12:27:12 AM by Ukiemeister »

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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

I agree with Ukiemeister. I don't think icons are intended to be like photographs, depicting the way a person or a scene would have actually appeared. I always thought of icons as being things we "read" rather than "look at." The halo in an example of this. We don't believe, of course, that Christ or other people walked around with gold disks attached to their heads. It's a symbol which depicts someone's holiness.

Who knows what Christ actually look like? In a sense it really doesn't matter. When you focus on an icon you are connecting with Christ spiritually, rather than looking at a picture of Him. The connection you make with Christ is really what matters most.

Also, don't let Protestants trip you up about icons. I always felt their position denied the incarnation. When Christ became incarnate He showed us His face, so to speak. He became tangible, someone that humanity could touch and see. Saying icons are bad is sort of like saying that God never became incarnate. It is like saying the New Testament never happened and that God is still "faceless" like in the Old Testament. At least that is how I see it.

Also, don't let Protestants trip you up about icons. I always felt their position denied the incarnation. When Christ became incarnate He showed us His face, so to speak. He became tangible, someone that humanity could touch and see. Saying icons are bad is sort of like saying that God never became incarnate. It is like saying the New Testament never happened and that God is still "faceless" like in the Old Testament. At least that is how I see it.

Good reply, however it's much more than that. Protestants, most especially Evangelicals, are quasi-gnostics when it comes to this world regarding the flesh and creation as near demonic and only the soul worth saving. Their position on icons is congruent with their positions on the mysteries such as baptism and the eucharist, which use the elements of creation which are made holy from union with the Holy Trinity. The Orthodox Church is the only Christian Church which makes it very clear that creation is still good, though corrupted. RCs and Protestants will see creation only in terms of corruption, hence their elevation of Scripture which is divine. Of course, you could always tell a Protestant that Scripture itself is an icon of the uncreated God. I wonder how they'd respond to that.

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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

I would also respond to said pastor by charging that such a stance is derogatory towards the Icon. As Iconography and Church Architecture is considered a source of Holy Tradition-which I suppose is a moot point as any Protestant pastor worth his salt is required to rain fire and brimstone down on the concept of Holy Tradition-it is representative of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

I also would say that each icon speaks to a lesson we should learn (i.e. that Christ is everywhere in everyone, irrespective of race).

In Christ,Ivan

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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

This commandment was to stop FALSE images of things in heaven but things that have been revealed to us in physical froms (e.g Jesus and the Saints) and symbolic forms (Holy spirit "dove", Cherubim "baby", Seraphim "6 winged humanoid") these things we can represent in icons and paintings as was done in the Old Testament by the Israelites how they represented the cherubim as babies that were painted (or carved im not sure) on the side of the arc of the covenant. So the answer is a definite NO. Although I think that these pastors must think fools of 1.5 billion people (Orthodox + Catholic) to think that no one in the whole religion has seen the link between Icons and "graven images" like its some from of new idea!!

"Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside your head and permit them to land!" (Priestmonk Christodoulos Aggeloglou, Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain Mount Athos, Greece, 1998,pp. 29-30, 48)

My priest mentioned once that it's like having pictures of friends and family. You wouldn't consider it idolatry to have pictures of your grandmother hanging in your house, so how are pictures of Christ, the saints, etc. any different? I think, too, that Protestants prove their disbelief that the soul lives on after death when they say, "How can you pray to the saints?" My understanding is that we are asking the saints for their prayers, not praying to them as if they were God. They're much more godlike and much closer to God than we are (or to speak for myself, I am) so the idea is that they can offer prayer more purely than we can. Back to the idea that no one knows how Christ looked, there were plenty of people who ate with Christ, spoke with Christ, were healed by Christ, etc. St. Luke himself wrote the first icon, if I remember correctly, and since he had been with Christ he probably had a good idea of what he looked like. But again, icons are not meant to be a scientifically accurate portrayal of the saint, but a sort of visual aid for prayer. There are also people who believe that icons should not be too realistic as you tend to focus more on the icon itself rather than the saint or your prayer.

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Protestants, most especially Evangelicals, are quasi-gnostics when it comes to this world regarding the flesh and creation as near demonic and only the soul worth saving. Their position on icons is congruent with their positions on the mysteries such as baptism and the eucharist, which use the elements of creation which are made holy from union with the Holy Trinity.

I agree with you, Scamandrius. As a former protestant, I've heard many a sermon that everything of this world is vile and fallen and that we, as Christians, may deign to step foot in it as long as we remember not to let it taint us. Nearly opposite of the Orthodox view, I believe.

By the way, sohma_hatori, completely off topic here, but love the screen name. Are you a fan of Fruits Basket, I take it?

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Has any of you encountered the protestant denomination called in the Philippines as "Iglesia ni Kristo" (Church of Christ)?

Im afraid of their growing influence, they seem to have attracted millions in just a few years! I fear that they may soon outrun the Catholics which compromise 86% of my beloved countrymen. ive studied their doctrine out of curiosity, but was never really convinced. Why? They seek to return to what they call "the old way of the church', referring to the times of the preaching of St. Paul.. What they dont know is that the Church that was rooted in the places the Apostles have preached is now what we refer to as The Holy Orthodox Church.. I have a close friend who is about to be convinced by their heresies, he is a Catholic..

Their influence is strong, and I really am eager to oppose their heresies... They keep issueing (dont mind the spelling) doctrines whose sole purpose is to "reveal" the "errors" of other religous sects, even MUslims! I know that this is not the way of Christ.. But everyday im exposed to their heresies I cant help but freak out and say bad replies to them...

Oh and EofK...yeah I am a fan, a devoted one.. I guess it isnt hard to geuss who my fav character is..You watch it too?

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

Hm... I haven't heard of this sect in a Filipino sense, but there are a ton of Churches of Christ in the US. I wonder if this is a mission of the American Churches of Christ? I'm afraid I don't know much about their beliefs, either. My husband's family went to a Church of Christ for several years when he was young, so I'll have to ask him about it. Interesting. And dangerous for them to try to prove to the Muslims that they're wrong. I've heard of several people who were executed by Muslims in the Phillipines without having antagonized them.

Yep, I am very much a fan of Fruits Basket. I'm trying to get Mr. Y hooked on it, but he seems to have only mild interest in it. I *love* the episode that introduces Kagura. I can't decide which character I like the most... they all have really interesting personalities. Either Yuki or Kagura.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 08:59:43 AM by EofK »

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Wow, yeah, that's alarming when people start claiming to be the second coming of Christ. Red flag!

Kagura just cracks me up... she tries so hard to be accepted and she ends up scaring people off. What I really love about the show is that the characters are almost redeemed by Tohru's love for them. They're so used to being outcast and holding on to the family secret that they're just amazed to have someone who knows about it and still loves them. Great picture of Christ there. I like, too, that Tohru carries around a picture of her mom and talks to it... it's an icon!

« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 09:07:01 AM by EofK »

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

sohma_hatori, the entire Christian Church depicts Christ in almost exactly the same way in all icons.

Has it occured to this Protestant that there might actually be a reason why the whole world knows what Christ looks like?

The Mandela of Edessa (sp?) is well known for showing Christ's appearance and a very early icon even includes the flower pattern found on it in the halo about the Lord.

An icon is obviously not a graven image as it is not even graven To be graven it must be carved. Now who carves icons The discussion around this topic largely seems to have taken place already though so I'll leave it at that.

~~~On a side note, in my former Protestant life I was once asked to draw a picture of God. Not being a very skilled drawer I made a fair attempt at copying the image of our Lord Jesus from my keyring. I was surprised at how people seemed to react as though that was somehow wrong although none of them dared deny the divinity of Christ before all of the others!

~~~The mob in Utah deny Christ too. And the JWs deny Jehovah!

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...because I was not with you when the Lord came aforetime....because I am blind and yet I see.

I don't recommend reading Catholic apologetics too much if one is Orthodox because they simplify our arguments when arguing against us, but nevertheless, Karl Keating has debated and written against this cult. You may want to do an internet search on him.

Just as an aside, when speaking of returning to the church at the time of St. Paul that would be pretty difficult unless we can rediscover the following historical tendancies:

lechery, open debauchery, open prostitution, animal sacrifice daily for various rites, open gnosticism and zealots, multicultural socity all within 70 miles of each other, a domineering empire which can strike and kill you at a whim, and persecution which slaughtered thousands.

Hm... I haven't heard of this sect in a Filipino sense, but there are a ton of Churches of Christ in the US. I wonder if this is a mission of the American Churches of Christ? I'm afraid I don't know much about their beliefs, either. My husband's family went to a Church of Christ for several years when he was young, so I'll have to ask him about it. Interesting.

Most of the Churches of Christ in the USA are part of the Campbellite movement, one of the many restorationist movements to come out of the US of the early 19th Century. AFAIK, they have always been Trinitarian, even though their model of doctrine is something like "no creed but Christ, no word but the Bible". (My godfather is former Church of Christ, so I hear quite a bit about them and their way of faith and life.) This Iglesia ni Christo sounds like something different.

Open Prostitution? Oh thats common in my country, Ill bet that pastor will the say the same...But you know, if you read the article that Ukeimeister presented above, it'll indicate locations like a "temple" and a "tabernacle, kinda like in a Jewish setting..

They keep refuting the Catholics here in my country saying that God is a Spirit and that to worship HIM is to worship Him in Spirit... Another great irony because they dont even recognize the Holy Trinity, so how can they even get a clue of worshipping the True Holy and Magnificent before all ages Triune God? Especially that they believe this Manalo person to be the 2nd Christ!

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

1. - Here in the USA many Protestant churches will have pictures of Christ in a Sunday School room. He is usually very Caucasian/American, just came out of the shower an blow dryed his hair looking. Handsome to say the least. Although they do not veneratet his picture in the same sense that we venerate icons, it is an icon nonetheless.

2. In many African American households there is a pictuer of Dr. Martin Luther King. Again, this photo is not venerated. But his picture or likeness reminds us what he stood for and the struggle that he led for equal rights. Same as an icon would remind us or teach us of the qualities or character of a particular saint(s).

3. - No use arguing with non-Orthodox. It is pearls before swine unless they are genuinely seeking to understand Orthodoxy.

Hope this helps

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Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!

Here in the USA many Protestant churches will have pictures of Christ in a Sunday School room. He is usually very Caucasian/American, just came out of the shower an blow dryed his hair looking. Handsome to say the least. Although they do not veneratet his picture in the same sense that we venerate icons, it is an icon nonetheless.

Very true. It has also become popular to have pictures of The Laughing Jesus. No one likes the idea of the somber, man-of-sorrows Jesus any more, so they go with the "It's all good" Jesus. Granted, I don't think Jesus was a sourpuss or anything, but there's a reason why most of our icons depict him with a serious look.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 09:42:29 PM by EofK »

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Even in Catholic shops here in the Philippines,there are pictures of Christ holding a mobile phone and asking, "Will you be my textmate?". I laughed, coz it was like an invitation to prayer just said in a rather radical manner..

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

1. - Here in the USA many Protestant churches will have pictures of Christ in a Sunday School room. He is usually very Caucasian/American, just came out of the shower an blow dryed his hair looking. Handsome to say the least. Although they do not veneratet his picture in the same sense that we venerate icons, it is an icon nonetheless.

2. In many African American households there is a pictuer of Dr. Martin Luther King. Again, this photo is not venerated. But his picture or likeness reminds us what he stood for and the struggle that he led for equal rights. Same as an icon would remind us or teach us of the qualities or character of a particular saint(s).

3. - No use arguing with non-Orthodox. It is pearls before swine unless they are genuinely seeking to understand Orthodoxy.

Hope this helps

About the third one, yeah youre right...Although the term "swine" is quite you know, degrading (no offense)...I have two close friends of mine who knew about my wish to be baptized into the Orthodox Faith...Since then we have been talking about it...

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

"If we attempted to make an image of the invisible God, this would be sinful indeed. It is impossible to portray one who is without body: invisible, uncircumscribed, and without form. Again, if we made images of men and believed them to be gods, and adored them as if they were so, we would be truly impious. We do neither of these things. But we are not mistaken if we make images of God incarnate, who was seen on earth in the flesh, associated with men, and in His unspeakable goodness assumed the nature, feeling, form, and color of our flesh. For we yearn to see how He looked as the apostle says, 'Now we see through a glass darkly.' Now the icon is also a dark glass, fashioned according to the limitations of our physical nature. Though the mind wear itself out with effort, it can never cast away its bodily nature,"

St. John of Damascus.

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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

um.. I mean no offense by this, but there was a protestant pastor who attacked the RC saying this..

"If your Icons and statues of Christ are really true, and are worth respecting, how sure are you that what you are depicting is really Christ Himself? Are you sure that that is really how Christ looks like?"

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

While sitting in my Presbyterian church pondering the issue of icons, I looked around, saw the pictures on the stained glass windows, and saw a picture of a very white American Jesus on the Powerpoint screen.

The second picture was also very popular in ... ahem... vintage ( ) Baptist churches, but once they tried to get hip with the kids, most of them hid that picture in their attics. Now you get the Fonzie Jesus, if anything.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 07:46:23 PM by EofK »

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Of course, you could always tell a Protestant that Scripture itself is an icon of the uncreated God. I wonder how they'd respond to that.

yes, take their Bible and place it on the floor and place your foot on it and see what they would do. That would be very difficult to do and I don't know if I could pull it off. I suppose it would be justified to make a point. But it would make a protestant realize their own veneration of the Bible. We venerate icons in the same way. Maybe that might help them distinguish the difference between veneration (of icons, saints, the Theotokos, holy angels) and worship (reserved for the Holy Trinity alone)

While sitting in my Presbyterian church pondering the issue of icons, I looked around, saw the pictures on the stained glass windows, and saw a picture of a very white American Jesus on the Powerpoint screen.

Isn't that Buddy Jesus from the Roman Catholics? I would certainly be surprised if it's actually Protestant in origin, since the figurine has a rather conspicuous Sacred Heart.

I always thought it was from that movie Dogma?

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

yes, take their Bible and place it on the floor and place your foot on it and see what they would do. That would be very difficult to do and I don't know if I could pull it off. I suppose it would be justified to make a point. But it would make a protestant realize their own veneration of the Bible. We venerate icons in the same way. Maybe that might help them distinguish the difference between veneration (of icons, saints, the Theotokos, holy angels) and worship (reserved for the Holy Trinity alone)

What a great point, BrotherAidan. I might use the illustration the next time I discuss this with a Protestant.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

The second picture was also very popular in ... ahem... vintage ( ) Baptist churches, but once they tried to get hip with the kids, most of them hid that picture in their attics. Now you get the Fonzie Jesus, if anything.

Actually, I think you're both right. The director/writer, Kevin Smith(?) was raised as a Catholic, though I don't think he practices any longer. The movie is pretty blasphemous.

It is, but as we are so fond of saying here, a stopped clock...

I think the "Buddy Jesus" idea is exactly what's wrong with the West. The feeling is that what is newer is better; if people don't like something about the church, change it to appease them. It's this "seeker-sensitive" sh** that causes people like Kevin Smith to reject the Church totally. I'm glad to see Pope Benedict reversing that trend. I've long said that the West has good intentions; the problem is that what they do accomplishes the opposite of what they want to happen. We need to see a return to tradition in all of Christianity; the Pope has the visibility to possibly be able to effect that.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Actually, as my daughter is fond of saying, people will always be attracted to the new and different. So those groups will always have a following; however,what will be their long term impact. When you reduce your faith to me and Jesus and the Bible alone it is easy to concentrate on only the here and now. You put down shallow roots. Tradition becomes meaningless as does leaving a legacy. This is endemic in American thinking which is a new culture. We love the new and different. it's funny cause I live in Philadelphia and am reminded daily of the struggle to create this country as I am surrounded by icons from the revolutionary era and monuments to the founders' fame and glory. Tradition if you will.

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Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!

I think the "Buddy Jesus" idea is exactly what's wrong with the West. The feeling is that what is newer is better; if people don't like something about the church, change it to appease them. It's this "seeker-sensitive" sh** that causes people like Kevin Smith to reject the Church totally. I'm glad to see Pope Benedict reversing that trend. I've long said that the West has good intentions; the problem is that what they do accomplishes the opposite of what they want to happen. We need to see a return to tradition in all of Christianity; the Pope has the visibility to possibly be able to effect that.

I wonder if this is why there's currently a surge toward Orthodoxy. It's unknown to so many people that it seems new and different; they just happened to stumble on the one church that hasn't tried to keep up with the Joneses. And amen to getting rid of the "seeker-sensitive" mentality. So many churches of that sort don't really make their church accessible to seekers, but dumb it down so that no one could possibly be offended by it. Personally, if I'm offended by something from the church, I try to look at myself first. I'm probably the one with the problem.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Personally, if I'm offended by something from the church, I try to look at myself first. I'm probably the one with the problem.

This is a response of repentance. But in Protestant churches preaching that I am already saved, what incentive is there for me to repent? Furthermore, if I am saved, I am perfect, and therefore the problem must lie with the other person. Arrogance is the corollary to the Calvinist doctrine of salvation.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

This is a response of repentance. But in Protestant churches preaching that I am already saved, what incentive is there for me to repent? Furthermore, if I am saved, I am perfect, and therefore the problem must lie with the other person. Arrogance is the corollary to the Calvinist doctrine of salvation.

Arrogance, correct. But there is alot of guilt in that religion:1. you're not 100% sure you're one of the elect; arrogance thinking you probably are, but doubt in private moments wondering if you really are.2. total depravity makes one think one is pretty scummy, and everyone else too3. there is a certain legalism that when you don't live up, you feel guilty4. theological arrogance because Calvinists are truly among evangelicalisms best scholars and thinkers; there can be some incipient guilt because it is such a cerebral faith and can be lacking in emotion, so guilt over not being more warm spritiually5. guilt from feeling one doesn't measure up to the hard, cold rationalistic theology and doctrinal triumphalism of some the Calvinist vanguard6. no sacrament of confession to know you are forgiven

At least that was my experience in that community; I didn't understand # 6 until I became Orthodox

The discussion about Confession that has flowed from the 6th point has been given its own thread