I haven't done a commercial wiring repair in quite a while, so looking for some process tips. New sewer line put in, cut through main and wiring. There are about 12-16 single strand wires cut. I have a feeling there was a repair there from once before, somewhere in the 5' span of the trench. Reason being, I found a few wire nuts, and on one side there is all red, other side there is all red and one white. My main concern is finding the common on the side with no white. There is an old map of how things were installed, but I don't know how precise it is, or what may have been changed.

So what process should I do to figure out what is what? I thought I would start at the controller with a meter, and figure which zones have an open circuit. Then I can use my remote to activate the different open circuits, trying to figure things out at the damaged area. I would assume I can find one of the valves that has now been cut off, and use a station master at that point sending back to the area with all red wires, and hopefully figure out which is the common.

I have to repair these before I can blow out the system, and we are on our third storm. Any tips would be appreciated. I know Jimmy will have some good suggestions, and I know I can call if needed as well. But I want to hopefully figure it out without being talked through. I work well with trial and error on my end.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-02-2011, 11:51 AM

I would start by identifying the common on the side that is all red. You should be able to use a tone and probe set and easily find the common. It wasn't clear from you post which direction the bundle of all red wires is heading. If it is coming from the controller then that should be easy to tone out. If they are heading away from the controller then you should be able to find the first valve past the break identify the common there and tone out the common back at the break. Once you find the common wires then everything else should be a piece of cake!

Mike Leary

11-02-2011, 11:53 AM

I have had some luck by carefully matching the cut wires, they all seem to have a "personality". Once you find the common, you're home-free. Do you have a "toner"? Good luck, man.

DanaMac

11-02-2011, 12:06 PM

If they are heading away from the controller then you should be able to find the first valve past the break identify the common there and tone out the common back at the break. Once you find the common wires then everything else should be a piece of cake!

That is the way they are heading, and I was thinking the same. But I don't know if we have a toner in all of the meters and such between us. I think the newest station master may have a toner feature built in, which I will check later.

bcg

11-02-2011, 12:12 PM

Dana, when I get into a mess like that, I start by ohming the wires on the valve side in all possibilities to find the common. There will be one there that you'll get good ohm readings on all the other wires with.

On the controller side, activating from the remote is a good idea but you won't be able to easily tell which is the common with the meter so take a solenoid with you to find which wire activates it. Since the universal remotes work on a hot common, you'll have voltage on all the wires. Disregard this if you're using a manufacturer specific remote.

Finally, don't assume that the white you found is the common.

Have fun.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-02-2011, 12:12 PM

This is what we use. It's about $125 at Ewing. It's probably the most useful piece of test equipment that my techs use on a regular basis.

This is what we use. It's about $125 at Ewing. It's probably the most useful piece of test equipment that my techs use on a regular basis.

Ditto. However, I remember my buddy Russ using the 521 to send the signal and using a cheapo non-ranging v.o.m. to i.d. the wires. I think that's something Jim taught him, worked great.

FIMCO-MEISTER

11-02-2011, 12:59 PM

You can buy the Greenlee toner separate at HD. Been times I thought I had no white in a situation like this and after some more digging or by some other means discovered I did have a common.

I count the wires on each side. If the same number then figure out the common. BCG's method is what I did also. Done the toner a few times as well.

The remote will help you label each zone coming from the controller. Then what I did is wire the common together and put a long strand on zone 1 and power it on with the remote. Used that strand to touch each wire on the other side and wire that into whatever zone I think it is. I found it easier to get the order right where they were cut than to just wire them altogether and sort it out at the controller.

irrig8r

11-02-2011, 02:23 PM

This was a cool tool. Sorted six conductors at once. Rain Bird doesn't have any mention of it on their site anymore though. They seem to do that a lot. Products disappear from their catalog and it's as if they never existed.

irrig8r

11-02-2011, 02:37 PM

More on the TI-WS6:

Wire Sorter
TI-WS6

Primary Application

Designed by an irrigation contractor, this tool is used to identify which
field valve wire goes with which station on a controller. This is useful
when wires have been spliced in the field and as a result are not the
same color at both ends. Allows sorting up to six field wires at a time.
This test instrument comes with an Irrigation Troubleshooting Guide, a
valuable reference for irrigation professionals.

Features
• Includes Irrigation Troubleshooting Guide
• Six unique jumper wires to attach to the field wires
• Easy to understand LED indicators on sorter tool
• One-year warranty

Funny thing is, I have one, but was under the impression there was a part missing.... lost the manual right off the bat and haven't used it in 5 years or so... now I can use it again.

Here's a copy of the catalog where I found it: http://www.irygacje.com/literature/rainbird.pdf

Mike Leary

11-02-2011, 02:43 PM

This was a cool tool. Sorted six conductors at once. Rain Bird doesn't have any mention of it on their site anymore though. They seem to do that a lot. Products disappear from their catalog and it's as if they never existed.

I'd forgoten that tool, we have one, too. Never used it, but it still sits in the "First-Aid-Kit".

irrig8r

11-02-2011, 03:10 PM

I used it twice. Worked fine. Then a tool box fell off my truck that musta had the manual in it along with some other stuff like a multimeter and a Progressive 508S...

Wonder who actually made it? Maybe I'll unscrew the case and see what it say on the PCB. Maybe still available somewhere.

Wonder if this is the same Irrigation Troubleshooting Guide they refer to?
http://www.rainbird.com/documents/diy/IrrigationTroubleshootingGuide.pdf

irrig8r

11-02-2011, 03:16 PM

Did you know you can still get a manual for a CRC?
Are there really any still in use?

http://www.rainbird.com/documents/diy/man_CRC.pdf

bcg

11-02-2011, 03:20 PM

Did you know you can still get a manual for a CRC?
Are there really any still in use?

http://www.rainbird.com/documents/diy/man_CRC.pdf

I can think of 5 or 6 of my customers with these off the top of my head.

irrig8r

11-02-2011, 03:26 PM

Did a search on "wire sorter"...

Looks like it's a Sperry.

Doesn't look they make it anymore. Not much of a manual either. Just this:
http://www.sperryinstruments.com/documents/products/ws-6a.pdf

Mike Leary

11-02-2011, 03:59 PM

Did a search on "wire sorter"...

If you want, I'll have Russ mail the manual I have to me and make a copy for you.

txirrigation

11-02-2011, 07:27 PM

Best way to find which one is the common:

Hook up the 521a to the common on a valve on the side you are working on. Lick your finger, and start touching wires. The one that lights your ace up is your common.

It's fun to get your tech and take turns touching wires.

In all seriousness I have resorted to this a few times, and it really is kind of fun.

DONT BE A HACK and burry all the wire nuts. Make all your connections and put them in a valve box.

S.O.Contracting

11-02-2011, 07:29 PM

Did you know you can still get a manual for a CRC?
Are there really any still in use?

http://www.rainbird.com/documents/diy/man_CRC.pdf

Unfortunately yes. Though I don't know that you need a manual. Most I see are original to the owner.

DanaMac

11-02-2011, 07:37 PM

Best way to find which one is the common:

Hook up the 521a to the common on a valve on the side you are working on. Lick your finger, and start touching wires. The one that lights your ace up is your common.

It's fun to get your tech and take turns touching wires.

In all seriousness I have resorted to this a few times, and it really is kind of fun.

DONT BE A HACK and burry all the wire nuts. Make all your connections and put them in a valve box.

I am bringing the 521 for this. Thought it would be handy.
Two 10" round valve boxes being bought tomorrow morning. I am NOT burrying the wire connections.

irrig8r

11-02-2011, 07:59 PM

Unfortunately yes. Though I don't know that you need a manual. Most I see are original to the owner.

Around here they're just a little more common than a Hydro Rain HR 6000.... maybe see one every 3 or 4 years.

Mike Leary

11-02-2011, 08:27 PM

DONT BE A HACK and burry all the wire nuts. Make all your connections and put them in a valve box.

A mistake I made with a huge number of splices was to spot a 10" Texas Round, thinking I'd never be back. Wrong, had to dig the whole thing up and find common #4 that had shorted in the cluster f*ck of wires we had. No more itsy bitsy v.b.s:nono: Went to a 12" standard; someone will thank me in the future.

txirrigation

11-02-2011, 08:45 PM

A mistake I made with a huge number of splices was to spot a 10" Texas Round, thinking I'd never be back. Wrong, had to dig the whole thing up and find common #4 that had shorted in the cluster f*ck of wires we had. No more itsy bitsy v.b.s:nono: Went to a 12" standard; someone will thank me in the future.

I like to tape the wires and put numbers on them... I have never gone back, but as you said someone will thank me in the future.

On larger wiring repairs I'll hook the remote to the controller and use it to identify/label all of the field wires on the controller side of the damage.
I'll then connect one field wire to the hot terminal, connect the remote at the other side of the damaged wires using the hot wire to power the remote, and identify/label all of the zones from there.

As far as identifying a common that is the same color as the others, if you can locate the nearest valve and disconnect the wiring there you should be able to use a toner to identify the common at the damaged area.

Man this thread brings back memories of a major shopping center project where the pad sites were built years apart. The utility contractors would just rip out huge section of mainline and wires and I would be left to clean up the mess.
And people wonder how I got to be such an a**hole!

FIMCO-MEISTER

11-02-2011, 10:23 PM

Best way to find which one is the common:

Hook up the 521a to the common on a valve on the side you are working on. Lick your finger, and start touching wires. The one that lights your ace up is your common.

It's fun to get your tech and take turns touching wires.

In all seriousness I have resorted to this a few times, and it really is kind of fun.

DONT BE A HACK and burry all the wire nuts. Make all your connections and put them in a valve box.

No no no that's not the fun way. Get one of your guys to strip the wires without telling him the 521 is hooked up. When he lets out a curdling scream walk up give him 20 bucks and say thank you.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-02-2011, 11:16 PM

No no no that's not the fun way. Get one of your guys to strip the wires without telling him the 521 is hooked up. When he lets out a curdling scream walk up give him 20 bucks and say thank you.

you're twisted! but I like your style! :clapping:

stebs

11-03-2011, 12:49 AM

No no no that's not the fun way. Get one of your guys to strip the wires without telling him the 521 is hooked up. When he lets out a curdling scream walk up give him 20 bucks and say thank you.

Now I just gotta ask... what kind voltage does the 521 output to give that much of a wallop? :eek:

Sprinkus

11-03-2011, 08:18 AM

Now I just gotta ask... what kind voltage does the 521 output to give that much of a wallop? :eek:

750Vp-p 285Vrms

1idejim

11-06-2011, 01:27 PM

the common will have continuity with all of the valve wires it services, multimeter will make short work of that.

a wire sorter can be used at the controller to establish station assignments, connected in reverse, the wires are identified and marked at the compromise
and the stationmaster to field verify the valve wires from the compromise.

remotes aren't common here but i can see their pros and cons as a time saver, only issue with catastrophic damage that i can think of is ground fault which could or could not make the remote not work properly, maybe someone else can chime in and clear that up.

i like wire sorting and fault finding as much or more than locating, i wish there was more of it around here.

DanaMac

11-06-2011, 02:28 PM

Pics to follow at a later time.
After doing more digging, there was a green common on each side of the trench, so that was easy. There was a repair at some point in time, and all the wires were repaired with white, so it was confusing the very first time I looked at it. No so bad after digging and investigating. But upon doing some testing, and after making repairs and blowing out the system, there are 5 wires that go no where. I get no voltage to them from the controller, and they don't ohm out at all on the outgoing side. But all the zones turned on from the controller, just not in order. I will change the order in the spring when I start up the system. I was rushed to get it operating and blown out, so at least the system is safe from freezing. Two zones need work as well, but there was 4"-6" of snow all over.

Mike Leary

11-06-2011, 02:44 PM

there was 4"-6" of snow all over.

:cry::cry::cry:

1idejim

11-06-2011, 03:37 PM

Pics to follow at a later time.
After doing more digging, there was a green common on each side of the trench, so that was easy. There was a repair at some point in time, and all the wires were repaired with white, so it was confusing the very first time I looked at it. No so bad after digging and investigating. But upon doing some testing, and after making repairs and blowing out the system, there are 5 wires that go no where. I get no voltage to them from the controller, and they don't ohm out at all on the outgoing side. But all the zones turned on from the controller, just not in order. I will change the order in the spring when I start up the system. I was rushed to get it operating and blown out, so at least the system is safe from freezing. Two zones need work as well, but there was 4"-6" of snow all over.

on most of the schools i see valves wire in red or black, commons are white or the same color as the valve wires, green are spare or designated trace wire (title 24-OSA) and most valves have a dedicated spare wire.

i pair the valve and spare by using a TDR and it's pretty much right on.

there has to be a reason the wires are there though.

have you heard from argos?

Mike Leary

11-06-2011, 03:44 PM

I've never seen green, but seen red used as common a million times and/or they ran of of wire and used whatever color they had left. "Hell, we'll never be back, who cares?" :hammerhead:

DanaMac

11-06-2011, 03:48 PM

there has to be a reason the wires are there though.

I have a feeling this system had some changes at some point in time. #4 and #5 have never had time on those zones, and nothing ever came on when I have tried. I do get current from #5 on one of the wires, but it all the other outgoing wires have open circuits when testing them out. There is an old drawing of the system, very faded, from I believe when it was installed. It looks like I got the same number of valves working as what is on that half of the property. The dead wires may be spares, but they are all red. I always did white common, red zones, green/blue/yellow for spares.

I informed the HOA that there will be a little more troubleshooting in the spring. I was more worried about getting the PVC mainline and valves blown out, than the poly laterals.

DanaMac

11-06-2011, 03:50 PM

I've never seen green, but seen red used as common a million times and/or they ran of of wire and used whatever color they had left. "Hell, we'll never be back, who cares?" :hammerhead:

Usually I see white as common, but green would be the second color we see for it. Jacklegs usually see green as a ground, and associate that with the common.

Sprinkus

11-06-2011, 05:28 PM

I've never seen green, but seen red used as common a million times and/or they ran of of wire and used whatever color they had left. "Hell, we'll never be back, who cares?" :hammerhead:

I've ran across that more than a few times. I've also seen systems that have a common for each valve. :dizzy:

FIMCO-MEISTER

11-06-2011, 06:05 PM

The early Toro irrigation classes back in the 70s instructed to use red as the common.

DanaMac

11-06-2011, 07:10 PM

The early Toro irrigation classes back in the 70s instructed to use red as the common.

As usual, Toro is wrong. :)

Mike Leary

11-06-2011, 07:44 PM

As usual, Toro is wrong. :)

Is does not matter in commercial applications, since they're all low bid: they'll slime the system in, whatever color wire is left over, they'll use. The "big boys" cross their fingers that it'll last the warranty. I, for one, still wonder why 14g is still spec'd, unless the run exceeds the voltage drop. In most commercial sites I've serviced and repaired, there was no need for 14g. wire.

Kiril

11-06-2011, 10:39 PM

I, for one, still wonder why 14g is still spec'd, unless the run exceeds the voltage drop. In most commercial sites I've serviced and repaired, there was no need for 14g. wire.

Ditto .... a ridiculous waste of copper.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-06-2011, 11:29 PM

I personally prefer 14ga wire. It's easier to work with than 18ga and the jacket is significantly thicker and I think protects the conductor much better. Keep in mind though that on most of the jobs that we install and maintain the average wire run from the controller is 2500' to 5000' in some cases. If I do a small residential and the controller is close by to the valves then I'll use 18g a multi-strand but other than that everything else we do is 14ga. I've never seen a commercial site that had 18ga multi conductor wire.

stebs

11-06-2011, 11:57 PM

I personally prefer 14ga wire. It's easier to work with than 18ga and the jacket is significantly thicker and I think protects the conductor much better. Keep in mind though that on most of the jobs that we install and maintain the average wire run from the controller is 2500' to 5000' in some cases. If I do a small residential and the controller is close by to the valves then I'll use 18g a multi-strand but other than that everything else we do is 14ga. I've never seen a commercial site that had 18ga multi conductor wire.

I'm with you. I run 14ga station wire and I believe its 12ga common (might be 10ga, i'd have to look). I think my longest run is in the area of 2000'

Kiril

11-07-2011, 12:24 AM

I personally prefer 14ga wire. It's easier to work with than 18ga and the jacket is significantly thicker and I think protects the conductor much better.

18ga multistrand has two jackets which I believe are of different materials .... I'm sure I don't have to explain either. So how much thicker is it Dan?

If you don't know, then maybe you shouldn't be saying stuff like "significantly thicker" .... heh?

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-07-2011, 09:05 AM

Well when it's 10:00pm at night and I'm at home and I don't have the wire or a set of calipers with me then no I don't know......
Posted via Mobile Device

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-07-2011, 09:20 AM

..... But any moron ( you included, bud) who has ever worked with #14 direct burial and #18 multi-strand would be able to tell you the the insulation on the #14 wire is significantly thicker.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril

11-07-2011, 10:05 AM

..... But any moron ( you included, bud) who has ever worked with #14 direct burial and #18 multi-strand would be able to tell you the the insulation on the #14 wire is significantly thicker.
Posted via Mobile Device

Single strand: http://www.ramcorpwire.com/sprinkler-irrigation-wire.php

0.047 inches for the single strand vs. 0.042 inches for the multistrand (both jacket & insulation, not including 18/25)

Difference = 0.005 inches thicker on the single strand. You are right dan .... that single strand 14 has way more protection. :rolleyes:

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-07-2011, 10:11 AM

I wasn't including the outer jacket in my statement. But I find it amusing that you feel so passionately about this that you went and looked it all up! Good job dude!! You get a cookie and a star on your star chart!

And just to put your mind at ease with my statement.... I looked at the Paige Wire data.... a single strand of 18ga has insulation that is .015" a single strand of 14ga direct burial has insulation that is .045" that's three times as thick. So as I said.... it's significantly thicker. I never said anything about the outer jacket if you read my original statement.

FIMCO-MEISTER

11-07-2011, 10:31 AM

The outer jacket gets cut and pulled back. Only the inner insulation should be considered in comparing insulation thickness inmo. I've also done repairs where the installer sliced the outer jacket and didn't realize he had sliced into a wire or two. One nightmare install I did the production must have gone haywire and a large portion of the multi wiring was missing insulation in several spots. Had to do a major wiring job after my own install.

Consider 16ga single strand on your residential installs but definitely 14 or less on commercial.

Kiril

11-07-2011, 10:31 AM

I wasn't including the outer jacket in my statement.

Why wouldn't you? Do you pull multistrand conductors out of the jacket and bury them? Perhaps you should compare apples to apples Dan.

But I find it amusing that you feel so passionately about this that you went and looked it all up!

I find it amusing you (like others) have a tendency to pull information out of your ass like it was fact.

And just to put your mind at ease with my statement.... I looked at the Paige Wire data.... a single strand of 18ga has insulation that is .015" a single strand of 14ga direct burial has insulation that is .045" that's three times as thick. So as I said.... it's significantly thicker. I never said anything about the outer jacket if you read my original statement.

Who cares? No one buries multistrand without the jacket, and my first post clearly made that point; but then perhaps you do strip the jacket .... which would make you the moron .... heh?

Mike Leary

11-07-2011, 10:52 AM

I've never had the jacket on 13-strand compromised, have had problems at the splices, but 14g will have the same. The reason, imho, is commercial installers don't have the time (or the wherewithal) to install wire correctly; " just throw it in the trench and move on." I always had my crew install the wire under or beside the main, and, not only wire-tie it, but make sure no sharp rocks were in the area. My thinking was, I'd prefer some dope to hit the main, rather than the wire.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-07-2011, 11:51 AM

Why wouldn't you? Do you pull multistrand conductors out of the jacket and bury them? Perhaps you should compare apples to apples Dan.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say man. Did you ever stop to think that when you have multi strand cables in a splice bucket or a valve box or a controller pedestal or controller enclosure the outter jacket is most likely stripped back and removed leaving a rats nest of #18 wire with it's paper thin insulation exposed and vulnerable to damage?

I find it amusing you (like others) have a tendency to pull information out of your ass like it was fact.

Again.... any moron can look at a #18 conductor and a #14 direct burial cable and see that the insulation is significantly thicker. I'm not sure how making a simple observation is the same as "pulling information out of your ass like it was fact"

Who cares? No one buries multistrand without the jacket, and my first post clearly made that point; but then perhaps you do strip the jacket .... which would make you the moron .... heh?

Again....that's the dumbest suggestion I have ever heard..... is this your last ditch attempt to win a loosing argument? Seriously Kiril.... you're the dumbest smart person I have ever run into!

Kiril

11-07-2011, 04:01 PM

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say man. Did you ever stop to think that when you have multi strand cables in a splice bucket or a valve box or a controller pedestal or controller enclosure the outter jacket is most likely stripped back and removed leaving a rats nest of #18 wire with it's paper thin insulation exposed and vulnerable to damage?

First ... don't strip the jacket back anymore than is needed and tape what is after connections are made .... any 1st year rookie knows that. Furthermore, even if you can't manage what a 1st year rookie can .... which apparently you can't, how much damage is going to occur in the locations you noted? Really dan .... are you reading the stuff you write?

Again.... any moron can look at a #18 conductor and a #14 direct burial cable and see that the insulation is significantly thicker. I'm not sure how making a simple observation is the same as "pulling information out of your ass like it was fact"

Blah, blah blah .... irrelevant. No one buries multistrand without the jacket. Given 99% of the wire is buried, you need to compare multistrand insulation + jacket to single strand insulation for the comparison to have any meaning. But go on spouting your "facts" as you see them because everyone knows those few inches exposed in boxes and controllers are at high risk of damage. :rolleyes:

Again....that's the dumbest suggestion I have ever heard..... is this your last ditch attempt to win a loosing argument? Seriously Kiril.... you're the dumbest smart person I have ever run into!

And we close with insults ..... merely demonstrating to everyone that your apple to oranges is indeed meaningless. :clapping:

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-07-2011, 04:24 PM

hey! I've got a news flash for you Einstein! You've already lost the argument so have fun talking to yourself. Oh.... and I'm telling you this only because I care, you should seriously look into some mental help for your condition :)

Kiril

11-07-2011, 07:54 PM

hey! I've got a news flash for you Einstein! You've already lost the argument so have fun talking to yourself. Oh.... and I'm telling you this only because I care, you should seriously look into some mental help for your condition :)

What argument would that be? After pointing out the fact that multistrand has two "jackets", I asked a question and you couldn't answer it. Where is the argument there? You then decided to be a smart ass and insult me .... so I posted the facts. Then you decided to be a further ass and make yourself look like a foolish little boy rookie irrigator. So I tell you what dan .... as soon as you start living in reality you let me know, because the rest of us know that multistrand is protected by two "jackets" .... and if you add up the thickness of those two "jackets", there is no significant difference between single strand and multistrand.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt

11-07-2011, 09:12 PM

blah blah blah..... keep yakkin' away crazy boy!

FIMCO-MEISTER

11-07-2011, 09:15 PM

Insulation and one jacket. Compare insulation to insulation. The jacket serves another purpose.

“18-Multi” – This is a cable with varying numbers of 18 AWG conductors, ranging from 2
to 25. It is used primarily in residential and small commercial irrigation projects.
The irrigation cable shall incorporate enough wires to accommodate all the valves it is
designed to control, plus some spares for future expansion. For example, if the cable will
activate 6 valves, then the number of wires needed is: 6 hot + 1 common + 2 spares =
9 wires. This cable would be called out as 18 AWG/9c. The construction shall include
insulated solid copper conductors and an overall PE jacket. The cable shall be UL® listed
for direct burial.

Kiril

11-07-2011, 09:43 PM

Insulation and one jacket. Compare insulation to insulation. The jacket serves another purpose.

Pay attention Pete. For the purposes of protection, if a cable has insulation and a jacket, then both are considered. This is the item dan mentioned, even if he did get the terminology wrong. He also didn't bother to mention why the insulation would be thicker on #14 vs. #18 .... but remember .... details aren't important because using #14 where a multistrand would be more than sufficient is just better. :rolleyes:

FIMCO-MEISTER

11-07-2011, 09:59 PM

Protection from what? A shovel? I'd rather deal with 14ga single any day than multi strand. The jacket does not serve the same purpose as the insulation.

Michael J. Donovan

11-08-2011, 10:58 AM

ok, let's move on...and quit with the name calling and belittling of one another