I don't believe I ever said the race was not important, I think it is good motivation for the players to see who really was the best player over a calender year.....you must be a NADAL fan....Please note I support tennis

I don't believe I ever said the race was not important, I think it is good motivation for the players to see who really was the best player over a calender year.....you must be a NADAL fan....Please note I support tennis

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Yes, I am a Nadal fan and I support tennis too, believe it or not, it´s possible.
And talking about the importance of the Race I wasn´t referring to you in particular but the general consensus on this board.

As the end of the year draws closer, the Race becomes more & more important.

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As Fedexeon said, the Race is only important for a few players that try to qualify for the Masters Cup in the last month of the season.
As for the rest of the tour, the Entry System is the only important ranking for seedings, direct acceptance...(real ranking) and at the end of the year the Race ranking will be basically the same than the Entry system ranking, that´s why the Entry system will always prevail, also at the end of the season.

Yes, I am a Nadal fan and I support tennis too, believe it or not, it´s possible.
And talking about the importance of the Race I wasn´t referring to you in particular but the general consensus on this board.

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I was not taking a shot at you in anyway Zaragosa...The reason I started this thread, was because the race has the potential to get real close now, and that jsut adds to the excitement of what has already been a great season

yeah, i think the race is important for all the top 10 players. if federer loses the race to nadal, he wouldnt be seeded #1 at the masters cup and he wouldnt be year end #1, which he was the last couple years. i believe they all consider it important, hence roger's attempting to actually win cincy this year.

Any other minor events Nadal played and won the rest of the year he would have points dropped off for as well. He is currently carrying 11 points from Queens, and 15 points from Dubai and Chennai. So even if he played 2 smaller events after the U.S Open and won both, he would be losing 26 points in addition to the points he gains. Federer actually has room for 4 smaller tournaments to gain points, although I doubt he plays 4.

If Federer wins Cincinnati there is zero chance, barring an injury for Federer, that Nadal ends the year #1. He certainly wont outperform him on the surfaces we are now on.

this doesnt matter in the points RACE. the race only counts how many points a player gets in a year, not what they have to defend, etc. they can only gain points, not lose them, regardless of how they did last year.

I was looking at who is left in the draw at cinncinati and in the head to heads the only player who has defeated Federer before is Hewitt and that was in 2003, currently Federer has won his last ten matches against him the actual head to head's are 1-0, 4-0, 6-0, 7-0, 7-0, 9-0, 12-7. So it's extremely unlikely that he won't win the event, considering he owns basically every other player in the draw.

If Fed wins Cincy, he will clearly be the greastest of all time, bar none, but if he loses, then he will have been just another flash in the pan.....that's what I have learned in my short time in this forum.....

If Federer wins Cincinnati there is zero chance, barring an injury for Federer, that Nadal ends the year #1. He certainly wont outperform him on the surfaces we are now on.

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That's pretty bold. Nadal has won Madrid Masters before, he can win it again. If Djokovic and Fed are in the same half of the US Open draw, that thing is wide open.

By the time Masters Cup begins, I think there will be scenarios for both Nadal and Fed to finish #1. Similar to 2000, when there were scenarios for both Guga and Safin. Should be the most entertaining Masters Cup in years.

I need to read up on how they select the RR groups in Masters Cup. Is there a chance that Fed and Djokovic will be in the same group??

I was looking at who is left in the draw at cinncinati and in the head to heads the only player who has defeated Federer before is Hewitt and that was in 2003, currently Federer has won his last ten matches against him the actual head to head's are 1-0, 4-0, 6-0, 7-0, 7-0, 9-0, 12-7. So it's extremely unlikely that he won't win the event, considering he owns basically every other player in the draw.

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I hope he meets Hewitt again. Just to give Hewitt a chance and see them play again, not that Hewitt has a chance.

I think if Federer wins the tournament he'll go up to 7605 RP, Nadal will be on 5515, that's a difference of 2090 points, which means assuming that Federer defends all of his points from the rest of the year, he'll finish on 6855 (I think), that will be impossible for Nadal to make up with the rest of the tournies left, Nadal could however finish on 6260 (I think), that is if he was RU in both the US Open and Madrid. Which means that if Federer was to say go out in the RR stage of Shanghai he would gain 100 points so start next year with 6955 and if Nadal wins shanghai he'll have 7010 and thus become the number 1 at the start of 2008.

I think if Federer wins the tournament he'll go up to 7605 RP, Nadal will be on 5515, that's a difference of 2090 points, which means assuming that Federer defends all of his points from the rest of the year, he'll finish on 6855 (I think), that will be impossible for Nadal to make up with the rest of the tournies left...

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Ninman, you're looking at the wrong thing (the entry ranking). Focus on the ATP Race - it's all that matters for year-end #1.

Won't you guys ever get it! Year end #1 is decided by the Entry Rankings. How do you think Sampras got 6 year end #1's before the ATP Race started. The only thing the race is for is qualifying for the masters cup.

That's pretty bold. Nadal has won Madrid Masters before, he can win it again.

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He won it with Federer out of the event, which he wont be this year, and a lack of good fast court opponents he had to play, except for Ljubicic in the final and even he dominated Nadal the first half of the match and choked big time. So no, Nadal definitely will not win Madrid, especialy now that Djokovic is confident in beating him on a hard court type surface too. Particularly since he is already running of steam and starting to play injured, as he often does this time of the year, to boot.

If Djokovic and Fed are in the same half of the US Open draw, that thing is wide open.

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There is almost no way Federer loses the U.S Open. Federer played like crap against Djokovic in the Rogers Cup final, and still should have won 7-5, 6-2. If they play at the U.S Open Federer will win in 3 sets, 4 sets max. I will be surprised if Nadal even gets past the quarters. Wimbledon is a much better event for him then the U.S Open now, and he wasnt physically beat down at Wimbledon.

By the time Masters Cup begins, I think there will be scenarios for both Nadal and Fed to finish #1. Similar to 2000, when there were scenarios for both Guga and Safin. Should be the most entertaining Masters Cup in years.

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I wouldnt be surprised if Federer already has it in the bag by then.

I need to read up on how they select the RR groups in Masters Cup. Is there a chance that Fed and Djokovic will be in the same group??

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I can already tell you are one of those who delude yourselves into thinking Djokovic is now the new Federer nemisis since playing his best he managed to scrape out a win vs Federer playing like crap, in a match he was still lucky not to lose 7-5, 6-2. Keep dreaming. Even in the very unlikely even Federer lost a round robin match to Djokovic (still more chance of that then Djokovic beating him at the U.S Open since 2-of-3 and RR format favor the weaker player as we saw from Federer-Roddick RR match last year), it would mean little since 2 advance out of each group anyway, and if Federer and Nadal played in the semis, Federer would have the clear edge on that type of surface anyway. His easiest ever win over Nadal was last year in the Masters semis.

I can already tell you are one of those who delude yourselves into thinking Djokovic is now the new Federer nemisis...

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I still say the first two statements above are quite bold.

The third statement is simply not true. I do not think Djokovic is Fed's nemisis. But he is clearly now the third best player in the world. He has proven that he can beat Fed and Nadal. He has a greater chance of beating Fed or Nadal than anyone else. So it's at least interesting to see what half of the draw he is in (or RR group) going forward.

The third statement is simply not true. I do not think Djokovic is Fed's nemisis. But he is clearly now the third best player in the world. He has proven that he can beat Fed and Nadal. He has a greater chance of beating Fed or Nadal than anyone else. So it's at least interesting to see what half of the draw he is in (or RR group) going forward.

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Djokovic has a much better chance of beating Nadal then he does of beating Federer, just as say Canas has a much better chance of beating Federer then of beating Nadal. So whether Djokovic is in Nadal's half or not (except at the French) is much more significance then whether he is on Fed's half or not.

Djokovic in red hot form did beat a extremely subpar Federer 7-6 in the 3rd in a best 2-of-3 match, but was lucky not to lose the match to an extremely subpar Federer 7-5, 6-2, considering the last game before the tiebreak in the first set. I am a long way from thinking he has a real chance to beat Federer in a major.

Won't you guys ever get it! Year end #1 is decided by the Entry Rankings. How do you think Sampras got 6 year end #1's before the ATP Race started. The only thing the race is for is qualifying for the masters cup.

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No, that's not true.

The world ranking is based on the previous 52 weeks, and the race is based on the current year.

At the end of the current year (after the Masters Cup), both rankings will be based on the previous 52 weeks, therefore they will match, and therefore the player who finished first in the race will be the world no.1 player.

I guess that's only comfort you can get. Nadal is No. 1 on the race points nobody cares. If he can get to No. 1 in entry points, at least history will remember as former No. 1.

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Yes, I always said that the Entry system is the only important ranking. I meant that it´s not just the clay season what makes him being no. 1 in the Race right now, on August. Anyway I think it´s more important to win majors than being no. 1 at some point of your career. Rios,Moya,Ferrero and other players were no. 1 but I don´t think anyone would consider them greater than Nadal.

If Federer wins todays final, Nadal is only ahead by 11 points in the race. He has almost no chance to hold on given Federer's vast superiority the remaining part of the year.

However he also isnt really ahead at alll. Nadal is currently counting points from 5 smaller tournaments, even if he wins another small tournament he has points coming off with that. Federer has only 1 smaller tournament on record now and can add tournament points without any coming off. So in reality Nadal is not ahead at all.

Yes, I always said that the Entry system is the only important ranking. I meant that it´s not just the clay season what makes him being no. 1 in the Race right now, on August. Anyway I think it´s more important to win majors than being no. 1 at some point of your career. Rios,Moya,Ferrero and other players were no. 1 but I don´t think anyone would consider them greater than Nadal.

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No its not about the clay when you get to finals of hard courts, do okay on hard slams and final a wimbledon etc. But he is a clay courter, he will slip by Djokovic or someone like him if he does not improve fast, because they are well suited for all courts. So he is undoubtfully the best clay player tennis has seen since borg but hes not there yes. Misses 5 wimbledon titels for a legendary status or at least 5 grand slams other than FO. Whos to say he will not get there ? But the way things look now, the hard court hole is beggining to fill up, too many crocodiles out there.

If Djokovic and Fed are in the same half of the US Open draw, that thing is wide open.

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Oh, brother! Djokovic wins once (two tiebreakers) at a 2 out of 3 event and now Fed is only even money (I assume by 'wide open' that's what you mean). Maybe Fed will invite Djokovic to Dubai and he can see his 11 SLAM TROPHIES!

I've gone to Shanghai each of the last 2 yrs - trust me, it's very entertaining. They all want to win - it's big money and a great way to end the yr and prep for Australia. I expect more of the same this year, regardless of the makeup of the 8 and how the 2 groups are formed.

I believe the groups are such that: 1 and 2 are split, 3 and 4 are split, ... - so any permutation - e.g. 1357, 1457, etc... - are possible.

No its not about the clay when you get to finals of hard courts, do okay on hard slams and final a wimbledon etc. But he is a clay courter, he will slip by Djokovic or someone like him if he does not improve fast, because they are well suited for all courts. So he is undoubtfully the best clay player tennis has seen since borg but hes not there yes. Misses 5 wimbledon titels for a legendary status or at least 5 grand slams other than FO. Whos to say he will not get there ? But the way things look now, the hard court hole is beggining to fill up, too many crocodiles out there.

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We will probably see in the next year or two what Nadal's chances are to win slams outside the French Open. If he hasnt won one by after the Australian in 2009 or so, there is a good chance he never will.

He was 135 points behind Nadal after Stuttgart. If he won today he is 11 points back, if he lost he is 41. Either way he is closing in and about to pass, just as most people who understand this game, and were realistic, called to happen. Nadal was never going to hold off Federer's charge at this point of the year. Nadal has played more tournaments so also has an advantage in the current points as well.