Re: Tab threads. Please read.

I just closed a thread requesting tabs for a song. Apparently, it got sidetracked into a Pro/Anti Tab debate. Again.

Please note:

There's no rule that states that TalkBass members are not allowed to use, request, provide or exchange tabs.

Consequently, they're entitled to receive the information they seek without having to get into a debate on the legitimacy of tab as a learning tool every time. Most of the people seeking tabs are young and inexperienced, not to mention poorly prepared to even understand the opposing viewpoint. Hardly a fair fight in my book.

I know many of you mean well, but being supportive rather than critical will not hurt. Not everyone who comes here wants to become a pro. The pros can (and should) help the hobbyists, providing encouragement and alternatives, but ultimately the amateurs will have to come to grips with the necessities of the job on their own if and when they choose to turn pro. You don't have to put tab down to encourage reading of standard notation.

Let amateurs be amateurs!

To the Newbies:

Tab threads should be posted in General Instruction. That's where I'll move any thread requesting tabs from now on.

I've been thinking about this subject for awhile now, and although this might not be the place to voice it, I have an idea: What about setting up a forum devoted to TAB? That way, folks who wanted to talk about TaB could go hang out there and know exactly where to go to find what they're looking for, and those who feel that tAb is an insult to the concept of "General Instruction" could hang out in GI without feeling the need to "instruct" anyone on the shortcomings and pitfalls of TaB.

If this reply leads to a flame war, apologies in advance - but it doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. There are many forums here at TB that I never EVER read because I know in advance that I couldn't care less about that topic. I know that in my case, if there was such a thing as a tab forum, I'd never read it. It would also stop the confusion that many newbies seem to display about where to post their TaB requests.

i think there's a very strong chance that such a forum would eventually become even more frequented than the notorious OT, and most likely more unruly as the number of potential Xbox owners go there seeking TaBz for Blink182's latest three chord masterpiece.

we need a tab forum like we each need a 3" hole in the head. who's going to be the poor sap who will mod this new forum, and who will take over when they bail to check into a padded room? go surf around tabcrawler a little, and then tell me again why we need to have that over here. as if there weren't enough "tab discussion" forums on the web already.

look, if someone wants a tab, that's fine - this site has a huge tab resource, very easily searchable - they can and have been directed there when they've asked. if they want to ask a question about a tab - how to read it, what something means, that's fine too. there've been lots of questions answered re:tab on this site by people who use them. people have also dealt with guff about using them, they've been encouraged to learn standard notation, they've been given valid reasons why it's better by educated and skilled players. that's what this site is for - to educate, a forum where more experienced players assist less experienced players on their way. part of that education is of the "don't do that, it's not the best decision" kind. not much education happens if everyone responds to potential learning situations with "yeah, cool, man, whatever floats your boat". some of these beginners might have never heard that tab isn't the best option for learning how to play - by encouraging standard notation, those of us who do so are providing a service, maybe not to the poster, but instead to the lurker who's reading and who decides to maybe check it out further.

i'd wager that there's not one instance over at tabcrawler where someone is encouraged to learn notation too.

besides, since when is someone getting guff here at talkbass about their opinion or choices grounds for starting a new forum? i can't count the number to times i've gotten guff for my basses, can we have a 7 string forum?

You know John, after reading your post and putting some sound thought into this topic I have to eat my words and agree with ya.

I'm not trying to speak for anyone else but I think what led up to this idea, or atleast myslef thinking it was a good idea is based mainly due to frustration and annoyance. It can get tiring seeing tab threads pop up knowing that the same old routine is about to begin that most of this community has read hundreds of times before. But now I really believe to sweep the issue under the carpet, or in this case into it's own forum is pretty selfish overall.

As tab threads continue to pop up they can either be ignored by those who don't want anything to do with tabs (me being one of them) or something can be posted stating that there are other more musical alternatives such as learning to play by ear and/or learning to read notation, basically like the way it's been handled all along. I think giving tabs a forum of its own could end up being overwhelmingly detremental to this online community.

Good points, everyone. I only suggested it because I feel strongly that the notion of tab requests getting sent to "General Instruction" is strangely contradictory... if you had a "Repair Tools" forum at an automobile site, would you say that people requesting Duct tape to fix their wheel that fell off would be kind of off topic? I would. On the other hand, if there was a dedicated "Quick but temporary repairs" forum at that same site, it might be useful so that people who wanted a short-term fix could go there, and pro mechanics wouldn't have to bite their tongues all the time when people were trying to tape wheels back onto their cars.

As far as the question of who to moderate it and what "hell" their life would be, I don't agree that the forum would quickly become "TaBcRaWlEr Ii"...give any reasonable person a copy of the TB usage agreement and moderatorial powers, and that site could be cleaned up rather quickly. It would lose a lot of members - especially the ones who log on to participate in infantile flame wars - but in the end, it would be a better site. If someone who was not personally offended by the idea of tab wanted to mod it, I don't think it would be a problem at all. Just my .02c.....

I think a tab forum would be good. But every tab related thread here has turned into a debate about whether or not tabs are good. Just live and let be. When someone asks for a tab and everyone starts saying how tabs are evil and whatnot it makes me mad. That's like taking your Geo Metro in for a oil change and the mechanic refuses to do it because you SHOULD be driving a Benz. Like I said, live and let be. I don't think making a tab forum would be so bad. My 2 cents.

It's funny, You see tab threads all the time, but hardly any threads about standard notation. Maybe that's part of the problem. Not enough discussion of the topic (being so fascinating and all) that it only creeps up an the Anti-tab.

Originally posted by Big Wheel It's funny, You see tab threads all the time, but hardly any threads about standard notation. Maybe that's part of the problem. Not enough discussion of the topic (being so fascinating and all) that it only creeps up an the Anti-tab.

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hee hee. how 'bout that tenor clef. looks like a coupla boobies just sittin' there on the staff.

Originally posted by Big Wheel It's funny, You see tab threads all the time, but hardly any threads about standard notation. Maybe that's part of the problem. Not enough discussion of the topic (being so fascinating and all) that it only creeps up an the Anti-tab.

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That's because there's nothing to discuss, since once you have the music in Standard Notation, it's all there - key, time signature, notes, tempo and tempo changes, octave range, dynamics, articulations, ornamentation, etc. If you are discussing the notation with someone, it's probably because you are having trouble reading it, which is rarely the fault of the notation.

If you are having trouble with a difficult book (in English), do you blame the English language? It's not that the subject of SN is "so fascinating and all", it's just that it is so complete and efficient that it requires no explanation or discussion once you learn how to read.

On the other hand, one thing that WOULD be very useful would be a thread on Transcription Methods using SN. If there was any interest up in GI, I would be happy to devote some time to a thread on that (assuming I could find a partner in crime...are you listening, HASBRO?).

I understand your point about the tab threads, Will, but in all honesty there is more to the "Tab-bashing replies" than meets the eye. If I were participating in a language forum, and people were translating great works of literature into "Hooked-On-Phonics" manuals so that someone who didn't read English could pronounce some Shakespeare, I would feel obliged to point out that learning to speak that way leaves out perhaps the most important aspect of reading any language - comprehension. While it doesn't hurt me one bit if people want to bypass comprehension and read existing things without it, I'd hate to see people make the mistake of believing that they are actually reading by doing it that way. I know this is a heated issue, but I believe that this is what is at the core of what you call "Anti-Tab" sentiment. And I know that many will disagree, but I don't think that the "TABEVIL" clan are bashing Tab to get their rocks off by feeling superior to those who are less experienced or accomplished...I believe that the anti-tab stuff is an attempt to remind people that they are taking the easy way out by using tab, and that they would probably be better off in the long run by actually trying to learn something about standard notation - which is a skill that will go into far greater depth than tab on every single piece of music it applies to, and one that will open many musical doors for the rest of any person's life.

If there was a tab forum, I for one would promise to never enter it, leaving all those who wish to take the easy way out in peace. As a matter of fact, I've been trying to avoid Tab threads in general these days, because the same flame war always happens over and over. If people want to remain ignorant, I can't stop them.