Hoolie, you are a perfect example of "the problem". You have this "somebody should do something" attitude. Why don't YOU do it? There is nothing stopping you from creating exactly what you stated you wanted.

If there was that much demand, you would figure someone would have done it over the past 20 some years. Burning Man didn't just happen yesterday. It's been around a year or two.

I really think if he (or she?) is serious, they should do as I suggested. Start as a theme, work to a village if it catches, THEN present it to the board.

If it had a proven track record, and I were one of the exalted (giggles) I would listen. If someone writes me a letter without showintg how it would wirk and that it would work, then they would prolly be ignored.

Ask me about vendors trying to pull sales calls on me. Same thing. If either I don't want/need it or your junk don't work, hasta la vista, and don't waste my time until you show me it does.

I said my piece... if I was pushing their agenda how I would work it. The ball is in their court - it's up to that person to do the legwork and assbust to show why it will work, with examples how it *has* worked.

WIth the snarl over what I said, however, it sounds like, well, snark... lost my intrest.

I'm going back to planning my vacation now - I hear BRC is quite lovely this time of year...

Hoolie wrote:I don't begrudge anyone who stays in an RV, especially if they are making valuable contributions elsewhere in the city (and many of them do). However, I do advocate a tent-only section somewhere within the main city, i.e. not isolated and banished to the outskirts like the walk-in section. It could start small, with say 1/8 of the city designated as tent-only. I guarantee spaces there would be in high demand were it implemented. Such setups are not unusual in standard recreational camping areas. Many of them have separate sections for RVs and tents. I wrote BRC LLC with such a proposal a while back, but never got a response.

There are some really excellent decaffeinated coffees now.
Sus? Captain?

I know those of you on here know what a fragile flower I am, but occasionally I do muster up an opinion, and I have mailed in a few suggestions for afterburn review and what not, and though I have never had a response back, a few have happened later.
Could just be a coincidence of good judgement, but some suggestions have been quite specific.
Anyway, some things do change.

I am actually a little startled when anyone takes my advice, because I never expect that to happen.

Apart from the fact that there's Hushville and the AEZ, some people are in walk in camping not because they've been ghettoized by an unfeeling org, but because
They Want To Be Out On The Edge Of The City!!!! I know this sounds bizarre and shocking, but some people like the peace and quiet and distance.

So yeah, start a camp, set those rules and see what happens.

*PlayaPoints can be redeemed for Harvey Hut tokens, amoung many other wonderous things.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

geekster wrote:Hoolie, you are a perfect example of "the problem". You have this "somebody should do something" attitude. Why don't YOU do it? There is nothing stopping you from creating exactly what you stated you wanted.

Move walk-in camping from the outskirts to the city proper? Would that I could.

Apart from the fact that there's Hushville and the AEZ, some people are in walk in camping not because they've been ghettoized by an unfeeling org, but becauseThey Want To Be Out On The Edge Of The City!!!! I know this sounds bizarre and shocking, but some people like the peace and quiet and distance.

So yeah, start a camp, set those rules and see what happens.

*PlayaPoints can be redeemed for Harvey Hut tokens, amoung many other wonderous things.

Do you know that they all feel this way? Or do some of them go there because they want to do walk-in camping, and that's where the walk-in camping area is? I would add that it's pretty sparsely populated out there, and I think the isolation discourages people away that otherwise like the idea of walk-in camping. I actually proposed camping there this year, but my campmates were against the idea, not because they didn't like tenting it or carting the gear, but because they would feel "banished" from the city. I didn't argue because I think it's a valid point. These are also people who, like me, seek walk-in camping on various other camping trips during the year. I'm also not proposing it be in the middle of 5&B. I would place it on the outer blocks, opposite where it is now.

Hoolie wrote:I don't begrudge anyone who stays in an RV, especially if they are making valuable contributions elsewhere in the city (and many of them do). However, I do advocate a tent-only section somewhere within the main city, i.e. not isolated and banished to the outskirts like the walk-in section. It could start small, with say 1/8 of the city designated as tent-only. I guarantee spaces there would be in high demand were it implemented. Such setups are not unusual in standard recreational camping areas. Many of them have separate sections for RVs and tents. I wrote BRC LLC with such a proposal a while back, but never got a response.

Ok, you are correct, "demand" was the wrong word. But what you are "proposing" is that BMORG do something that is completely within your power to do yourself. So you sent BMORG a proposal that they do something as if they really don't have much else to do and are sitting around waiting for direction from burners. What you don't seem to be understanding is that if you wish to have a "tent only" area, make one! It is completely within your power to make that reality happen. BMORG is probably not going to respond to your suggestion because they probably feel there is no need to. You can make that suggestion happen yourself.

You appear to me to be a manifestation of a generation who has been so conditioned to be powerless and told what to do and have everything planned for them that they don't know how to take the initiative and make their own dreams come true. There is an alternative at Burning Man. The thing hasn't become so regulated that you can't make just exactly the sort of space you dream of without any input from anyone. Yeah, it will take some work on your part. Is that the problem? Would you rather just shoot off an idea to "the powers that be" and have them do it for you? That isn't likely to happen. Basically there is a subset of people who need to be told where to go and what to do. Walk-in camping is for those people. It is sort of a default space for them. But there is absolutely nothing in this world that prevents them from banding together themselves and making their own "tents only walk-in camp" anywhere in the city.

You already have the power to do that. BMORG doesn't have to do anything because they have already done it, they have already empowered you with the ability to make it happen. It just looks like you want someone else to do it for you or you want someone to tell people they have to do what you suggest. By moving the tent area as you suggest, that is basically what they would be doing. They would be telling tent campers to go someplace else. They don't need to do that. Tent campers can ALREADY go someplace else if they want.

All they have done is created a little corral for the sheeple that need to be told where their place is. There is no reason you have to remain there.

Everything that exists on the playa is there because someone MADE IT HAPPEN. How did they do that? Let's do that as multiple choice
a) Got BMORG to officially sanction and enforce their idea
b) Whined about it on eplaya
c) Just did it

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Ok, how would you go about "Just do"ing it? Kinda late to start for this year, but for next year you could start collecting as many people as you can to your "tents only" camp. I don't know if "tents only" is enough of a theme to get placed, but if you don't get placed you can still start a camp. If it works, more people will want to come. If it doesn't, well, it's not an idea whose time has come. Maybe you go back to the drawing board and improve it. Maybe you try something completely different.

I'm not saying anything new here, just laying it out in more detail.

BTW, hushville? tends to not attract RVs. RV'ers like to run their generators. If you wanted a solution already in place, Hushville is about as good as it gets.

And walk in camping? It may not have been what your friends wanted, but it seems to fill a need for a lot of people. The only people I've talked to who camped out there did it because they love it. I'm pretty sure that most of them feel that way BECAUSE THEY CAMP THERE. If they didn't think it was better than other available options, they'd take one of the other options. Or make their own.

One reason walk in camping is where it is, is because .... it is walk in camping. Why force people to walk another mile carrying all their shit?

And you don't have to be a registered, placed, "theme camp". You can be just a bunch of people who camp together in the open camping area. Oh, but you want everyone else to camp there, too, and be told to do it. And you want to use BMORG's authority to keep the RVs out of your "better" camping area. Better for you, maybe, but have you polled the rest of the people in the open camping area to see what they think? They might think that walking another half mile or so to a camping area sucks.

geekster wrote:Ok, you are correct, "demand" was the wrong word. But what you are "proposing" is that BMORG do something that is completely within your power to do yourself. So you sent BMORG a proposal that they do something as if they really don't have much else to do and are sitting around waiting for direction from burners. What you don't seem to be understanding is that if you wish to have a "tent only" area, make one! It is completely within your power to make that reality happen. BMORG is probably not going to respond to your suggestion because they probably feel there is no need to. You can make that suggestion happen yourself.....

Thank you. Well, we shall see if it's really within my power. Time constraints are working against me, and if I do find the time, I actually have another, different idea which I feel is more important that I would devote it to. But seriously, am I asking so much of the LLC other than a re-draw of the map? They re-draw that thing every year anyway. Moreover, I don't see why writing to make a suggestion is such a crime. I have done so with other things in the past, outside of Burning Man, and most people are happy to have polite feedback, even if they disagree, because it means the writer is interested in whatever they are doing. And I almost always get a response, though sometimes it's a form letter. I didn't take the LLC's non-response personally though. Frankly, I would guess it's because they receive a lot of email, and simply don't have the resources to respond to every single one.

geekster wrote:You appear to me to be a manifestation of a generation who has been so conditioned to be powerless and told what to do and have everything planned for them that they don't know how to take the initiative and make their own dreams come true.

I write my congressperson and the president from time to time. Is that a waste of time? Does that make me powerless? I disagree.

Congress and the President are government officials who are subordinate to the people (as much as they hate to be reminded of that). Burning Man is not a democracy. It is not a government. The LLC is not elected by the population. It is a business. There is a huge difference. BMORG is not subordinate to the population. The only vote that counts is your ticket.

swampdog wrote:Problem statement: I want to camp where I don't have to look at RVs.

Please, don't think of my position as anti-RV, but rather, pro-tent city. When I bring up this idea, I get the sense that RVers take offense and assume I am disparaging them. I AM NOT! I want the RVers at Burning Man! I know many of them make valuable contributions to the event, and many of those contributions have far surpassed anything I have done there. When someone proposes an all out RV ban, I am quick to point this out.

swampdog wrote:BTW, hushville? tends to not attract RVs. RV'ers like to run their generators. If you wanted a solution already in place, Hushville is about as good as it gets.

Yes, I get what Hushville is doing, and I think it's great. However, I just don't think I'm a theme camp kind of person. Applying, registering, additional rules and restrictions, it's not really for me. My vision is simply a walk-in type section within the main city: all the autonomy and randomness of the regular areas, minus the vehicles.

swampdog wrote:And walk in camping? It may not have been what your friends wanted, but it seems to fill a need for a lot of people. The only people I've talked to who camped out there did it because they love it. I'm pretty sure that most of them feel that way BECAUSE THEY CAMP THERE. If they didn't think it was better than other available options, they'd take one of the other options. Or make their own.

But for every person out there, I wonder how many more would be in that section were it not on the outskirts? But this idea can be implemented in different ways. For example, keeping some of it on the outskirts, but extending it into the city proper.

geekster wrote:Congress and the President are government officials who are subordinate to the people (as much as they hate to be reminded of that).

Whoops, it was probably a mistake to sidetrack this into politics. As much as I believe the above was what was intended, I don't believe it's what we have now. But that's a conversation that could really spin off into a long tangent, so I'll leave it at that.

Hoolie, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll try to tone down the snark a little.

But seriously, am I asking so much of the LLC other than a re-draw of the map? They re-draw that thing every year anyway.

I think drawing the map is actually a pretty painful process and they try to only introduce changes that have a really good chance of improving the experience for a lot of people. So I think it is a really big deal.

I personally don't like seeing areas that look like nothing but RV's but most of the city is not like that. RVs and tent campers mix in pretty well. (last year a very nice foursome of older RV'ers invited me to join them for their delicious salmon dinner)

I think you're trying to fulfill a whim, not a need. Burden of proof is on you to prove it's a need - such as by making the need visible by building a camp of like-minded individuals.

Moreover, I don't see why writing to make a suggestion is such a crime.

Not a crime, just pointless. (eta: original comment was specifically about writing to BMorg)

Frankly, I would guess it's because they receive a lot of email, and simply don't have the resources to respond to every single one.

Also - they're a bunch of freaks and hippies. If they responded, they'd probably have said the same as we are saying. Or sent you a form letter. Do you really want a form letter?