Is there anywhere in this long thread where KK or anyone lists effective counter styles to the six styles? E.g If I see a baseline machine, how should I play?

I don't believe KK posted it, but I think I could attempt this myself, and maybe with some help and revisions make it!

Attack the Net:

Both Counter Punching and Blasters I think cause the most trouble to Attack the Net players. Counter Punchers often cause a lot of problems to ATN players because they often have a few shots that can thread the needle/hit at the net players feet quite easily, from their consistency. Blasters also can cause quite a bit of damage because of their ability to hit straight "through" the net player! All being equal, a blast at the same level as an ATN player, the blaster will quite often hit big enough shots to either discourage the net player.

Blasters:

Machine base liners and Counter Punchers are the bane for Blasters. Often these types of players are impossible to hit through because of their speed, consistency and stamina, with their consistent strokes. It's different then a pusher, because both Machines and CP's can create their own pace, and tire out the Blasters who USUALLY have less then perfect stamina. Pushers / Retrievers also may have an advantage because of foot speed, but all being equal, Blasters usually are able to dismantle and hit through the Pusher. Also, skilled Junk Ballers are going to cause a lot of damage to blasters, if the Blaster is not very quick on their feet, and they are not able to adjust their strokes accordingly. Most Blasters I have seen, take a long time to set up their shots, (Long, loopy strokes), so messing with their timing is key.

Soft Baller:

The Soft Baller is an odd one to play against, because they are able to neutralize pace. The best strategy against them is to Attack the Net and really punish their low powered shots. Blasters, if they are able to keep their cool, should also have little problems with this type of player.

Retrievers:

Retrievers are especially difficult to play against, if you play a similar style. There are a few ways of taking down a Retriever! You can... A) Not let them use their stamina. Attack the net and really try to take them down before they can wear you out. Angles are your friend with volleys to try and get them to waste THEIR energy, instead of yours. B) Machine Base Line! If you are able to dictate the pace and direction of the ball, and make the Retriever run, while you yourself are able to more or less sit back and relax, it's an easy day in the park for you! C) Counter Punch. This will be the longest game in history, but I believe it is one way to take down a solid Retriever. They are able to slowly wear down the Retriever while making some offensive shots to win points. Expect it to be a long day with a true Counter Puncher VS a Retriever.

Counter Puncher:

Counter Punchers in my opinion, are some of the hardest players to play against at equal levels. Their ability to switch between defense and offense usually will leave you dazed and confused, not to mention flat footed. Spin Doctors and Machine Base Liners could possibly have the best chance. SD's MAY be able to fool the CP's with their drop shots and lobs, but CP's are also masters in those types of shot's themselves. It's an interesting match up, and I think it is a good match up, but depending on the SD's stamina, it might be tough. Machine Base Liners are really the anti Counter Puncher in my mind. They are able to outlast CP's in my mind, and plus they are steady. If they are able to neutralize the CP's winners, then they will do well against them.

Machine Base Liner:

Attack the Net is one of the only strategies I can think that can truly defeat the Machinist. Only if you are able to angle them off the court, and wrong foot them are you going to win. Machine base liners are the steadiest opponent for any play style to come up against in my mind. (I think of Sampras VS Agassi, a very even match up!)

Now onto the bane of life for most Recreation Players....

Junk Ballers:

JB's are tough to play against, until you can learn to read their game. Machine base liners, Attack the Net, Pushers, Counter Punchers and Soft ballers have the greatest chance of victory against them. While JB's don't have the strongest play style, they do often evolve into Counter Punchers. Basically if you are able to read the stroke timing, and attack their weaknesses such as power it's going to be a good day. ATN can put way more pressure on their shots, it's going to be favorable. Junk Ballers really can cause damage to Blasters I find, but that is about it.

Spin Doctors:

Treat them as junk ballers. The main strategy against this type of player is to ATN, or Outlast them as a Counter Puncher. Hitting through them is difficult, so this play style may cause trouble for any type of base liner, other then the Counter Puncher!

Chop Shotters:

These guys are difficult to play against. The best strategy is to Attack the Net. They cause A LOT of problems for any type of base line player, which includes Blasters, Machinists, Pushers, Counter Punchers, and every thing else. Name it, and Chop Shotters can cause some of the ugliest games possible. They live off your pace. Soft Ballers may have a chance of beating them, but it's going to take a long time. (See your local Granny Match between 2 soft ballers.)

Pushers:

Pushers in my mind, are the easiest player to beat with a bit of confidence in your game. All you need to do is be willing to step in and let it rip! Attack the Net, Blasters, and Counter Punchers will have the easiest time with the Pusher. Topspin is your friend and so are angles. Attack the net in my mind is the easiest, but if Blasters are willing to step in the court and start hitting some sharp angles, it's going to be a good day. Blasters I find have an easy time hitting angles and really hitting through the Pusher. Counter Punchers are also able to play "Puppet Master" with them and drag them side to side with angled Top Spin shots until they are able to blow them off the court with a good winner.

Last but not least....

All Courters:

All Couters are unique because they are rare, and they are jack of all trades. The best strategy against an AC is to find what they do "worst" of their skills and attack that. It also means being stronger in your game, then they are in theirs. Any "Pure" style should be able to beat an AC assuming that they have confidence and skill to do so. A Blaster should try and exchange the AC in Base line rallies, and hit through them, because they are better at it then the AC. Counter Punchers should try and outlast, and wear down the AC, while drawing them into the net to pass them. Machines should try and just keep them steadily back and wear them down. I've noticed that AC's don't normally have the worlds greatest stamina, so wearing them down is a good strategy. Adjust accordingly however! They are truly tough opponents. Also, an AC is an AC's worst enemy. It's the best tennis to watch IMO, and the hardest to play.

Is there anywhere in this long thread where KK or anyone lists effective counter styles to the six styles? E.g If I see a baseline machine, how should I play?

This will seem like a very "political" answer, but ... I think YOUR style is the best one against any of the six styles. My hope is, by understanding the six styles, you'll know how your preferred style matches up against your opponents.

If you're up against a Machine Baseliner and YOUR style is Junk Ball, play your game. The Junk Baller *can* drive the Machine Baseliner nuts by not giving him any rhythm. If he can't get "grooved" you already have an advantage.

If your style is Attack The Net ... do it! You and your opponent will be in one of the "classic" battles of wits. Assuming your ability levels are comparable, whomever is mentally toughest will probably prevail.

If you're another Machine Baseliner, it's going to be one LOOooong match to see who prevails. (But why -- unless you really ARE an All Courter -- would you change away from your strong suit?)

I don't believe KK posted it, but I think I could attempt this myself, and maybe with some help and revisions make it!

Attack the Net:

Both Counter Punching and Blasters I think cause the most trouble to Attack the Net players. Counter Punchers often cause a lot of problems to ATN players because they often have a few shots that can thread the needle/hit at the net players feet quite easily, from their consistency. Blasters also can cause quite a bit of damage because of their ability to hit straight "through" the net player! All being equal, a blast at the same level as an ATN player, the blaster will quite often hit big enough shots to either discourage the net player.

Blasters:

Machine base liners and Counter Punchers are the bane for Blasters. Often these types of players are impossible to hit through because of their speed, consistency and stamina, with their consistent strokes. It's different then a pusher, because both Machines and CP's can create their own pace, and tire out the Blasters who USUALLY have less then perfect stamina. Pushers / Retrievers also may have an advantage because of foot speed, but all being equal, Blasters usually are able to dismantle and hit through the Pusher. Also, skilled Junk Ballers are going to cause a lot of damage to blasters, if the Blaster is not very quick on their feet, and they are not able to adjust their strokes accordingly. Most Blasters I have seen, take a long time to set up their shots, (Long, loopy strokes), so messing with their timing is key.

Soft Baller:

The Soft Baller is an odd one to play against, because they are able to neutralize pace. The best strategy against them is to Attack the Net and really punish their low powered shots. Blasters, if they are able to keep their cool, should also have little problems with this type of player.

Retrievers:

Retrievers are especially difficult to play against, if you play a similar style. There are a few ways of taking down a Retriever! You can... A) Not let them use their stamina. Attack the net and really try to take them down before they can wear you out. Angles are your friend with volleys to try and get them to waste THEIR energy, instead of yours. B) Machine Base Line! If you are able to dictate the pace and direction of the ball, and make the Retriever run, while you yourself are able to more or less sit back and relax, it's an easy day in the park for you! C) Counter Punch. This will be the longest game in history, but I believe it is one way to take down a solid Retriever. They are able to slowly wear down the Retriever while making some offensive shots to win points. Expect it to be a long day with a true Counter Puncher VS a Retriever.

Counter Puncher:

Counter Punchers in my opinion, are some of the hardest players to play against at equal levels. Their ability to switch between defense and offense usually will leave you dazed and confused, not to mention flat footed. Spin Doctors and Machine Base Liners could possibly have the best chance. SD's MAY be able to fool the CP's with their drop shots and lobs, but CP's are also masters in those types of shot's themselves. It's an interesting match up, and I think it is a good match up, but depending on the SD's stamina, it might be tough. Machine Base Liners are really the anti Counter Puncher in my mind. They are able to outlast CP's in my mind, and plus they are steady. If they are able to neutralize the CP's winners, then they will do well against them.

Machine Base Liner:

Attack the Net is one of the only strategies I can think that can truly defeat the Machinist. Only if you are able to angle them off the court, and wrong foot them are you going to win. Machine base liners are the steadiest opponent for any play style to come up against in my mind. (I think of Sampras VS Agassi, a very even match up!)

Now onto the bane of life for most Recreation Players....

Junk Ballers:

JB's are tough to play against, until you can learn to read their game. Machine base liners, Attack the Net, Pushers, Counter Punchers and Soft ballers have the greatest chance of victory against them. While JB's don't have the strongest play style, they do often evolve into Counter Punchers. Basically if you are able to read the stroke timing, and attack their weaknesses such as power it's going to be a good day. ATN can put way more pressure on their shots, it's going to be favorable. Junk Ballers really can cause damage to Blasters I find, but that is about it.

Spin Doctors:

Treat them as junk ballers. The main strategy against this type of player is to ATN, or Outlast them as a Counter Puncher. Hitting through them is difficult, so this play style may cause trouble for any type of base liner, other then the Counter Puncher!

Chop Shotters:

These guys are difficult to play against. The best strategy is to Attack the Net. They cause A LOT of problems for any type of base line player, which includes Blasters, Machinists, Pushers, Counter Punchers, and every thing else. Name it, and Chop Shotters can cause some of the ugliest games possible. They live off your pace. Soft Ballers may have a chance of beating them, but it's going to take a long time. (See your local Granny Match between 2 soft ballers.)

Pushers:

Pushers in my mind, are the easiest player to beat with a bit of confidence in your game. All you need to do is be willing to step in and let it rip! Attack the Net, Blasters, and Counter Punchers will have the easiest time with the Pusher. Topspin is your friend and so are angles. Attack the net in my mind is the easiest, but if Blasters are willing to step in the court and start hitting some sharp angles, it's going to be a good day. Blasters I find have an easy time hitting angles and really hitting through the Pusher. Counter Punchers are also able to play "Puppet Master" with them and drag them side to side with angled Top Spin shots until they are able to blow them off the court with a good winner.

Last but not least....

All Courters:

All Couters are unique because they are rare, and they are jack of all trades. The best strategy against an AC is to find what they do "worst" of their skills and attack that. It also means being stronger in your game, then they are in theirs. Any "Pure" style should be able to beat an AC assuming that they have confidence and skill to do so. A Blaster should try and exchange the AC in Base line rallies, and hit through them, because they are better at it then the AC. Counter Punchers should try and outlast, and wear down the AC, while drawing them into the net to pass them. Machines should try and just keep them steadily back and wear them down. I've noticed that AC's don't normally have the worlds greatest stamina, so wearing them down is a good strategy. Adjust accordingly however! They are truly tough opponents. Also, an AC is an AC's worst enemy. It's the best tennis to watch IMO, and the hardest to play.

I think that's it for now!

-Fuji

Wow! Fuji, you put a lot of work into this. I really enjoyed this analysis. Nice job!

___________

I consider myself to be an Attack The Net player with "elements" of All Courter. (I can switch to Counter Puncher, Soft Baller, Junk Ball, Baseliner or Retriever for a few points to confuse or add variety.)

I don't have the patience to Soft Ball for games-in-a-row. I don't have the stamina to Retrieve more than three or four points in a row. I don't have the psychological stamina to keep Junk Balling very long. (I don't feel like a "real" tennis player if I'm Junk Balling. BUT ... if JUNK will bring me a victory, you're gonna see a lot of junk against me!)

If my opponent is a true Baseliner, I will not attempt to out-Baseline him. That's my weakest style. (I'm 55 and play at altitude [over 6,000 ft], where the thin air IS an important consideration. Most players of my generation are either Attack The Net, Counter Punchers or Junk Ballers. Guys my age (generally) see a 6-8 shot point as a long point. Most of these guys consider themselves Baseliners if they can hit the ball back with depth four times in-a-row. Surely I can out-steady THAT. But today's Baseliner can hit with depth and pace for 12-20 shots consistently. (This is what I mean by "true Baseliner.") I cannot hang with these guys and I know it.

[I played on the East Coast last year and was *amazed* at how easy it was to sustain a rally in thicker air. And my kick serve really KICKS down there! I suspect I'd be better at Baselining as a Flat-Lander.]

Wow! Fuji, you put a lot of work into this. I really enjoyed this analysis. Nice job!

___________

I consider myself to be an Attack The Net player with "elements" of All Courter. (I can switch to Counter Puncher, Soft Baller, Junk Ball, Baseliner or Retriever for a few points to confuse or add variety.)

I don't have the patience to Soft Ball for games-in-a-row. I don't have the stamina to Retrieve more than three or four points in a row. I don't have the psychological stamina to keep Junk Balling very long. (I don't feel like a "real" tennis player if I'm Junk Balling. BUT ... if JUNK will bring me a victory, you're gonna see a lot of junk against me!)

If my opponent is a true Baseliner, I will not attempt to out-Baseline him. That's my weakest style. (I'm 55 and play at altitude [over 6,000 ft], where the thin air IS an important consideration. Most players of my generation are either Attack The Net, Counter Punchers or Junk Ballers. Guys my age (generally) see a 6-8 shot point as a long point. Most of these guys consider themselves Baseliners if they can hit the ball back with depth four times in-a-row. Surely I can out-steady THAT. But today's Baseliner can hit with depth and pace for 12-20 shots consistently. (This is what I mean by "true Baseliner.") I cannot hang with these guys and I know it.

[I played on the East Coast last year and was *amazed* at how easy it was to sustain a rally in thicker air. And my kick serve really KICKS down there! I suspect I'd be better at Baselining as a Flat-Lander.]

- KK

Thanks a lot KK! I've actually been mulling this over for MONTHS on end. Pretty much since I started taking up a higher level of tennis. To me, it's probably the closest I've come to a completed list of it.

From the sounds of it, we play similar games! I started out as a pure serve and volley player, but as I progressed with my game, I learned to how to counter punch quite effectively! So I have quite an bizzaro all court style, where I am able to attack from anywhere, and I have the foot speed of gazelle.

Honestly, I have a hard time playing a true "baseliner" game, I just don't have the patience to bash my forehand the same 20 times in a row, during a game! When I counter punch, I get it back until I can strike a winner!

Most of the top Pros simply impose their games on their opponents. They do what they are best at and believe they're better at the top style than playing their 2nd or 3rd best style.

But ... Bill Tilden was known for beating *his* opponents at their best style. Asked why, his answer was, That way all they have to fall back on is their weaknesses.

What do you think?

- KK

Thanks for your reply ~

That is what a very good coach in PHX told me. I am able to get lessons only on occasion because of the distance, but he says "if you don't deliver, you will be punished and pay for weak shots." Impose one's game ...

Good strategy if you are better than everyone else. Probably not a great strategy for the rest of us.

That is my experience. And most people I play have a lot more years of experience playing so I'm not all that "match hardy" meaning the match is half over by the time my nerves settle. I prefer to play people who hit hard (my practice partner is my hubby) and many of the people I play in matches hit soft puff shots, both for serves and other strokes, so I end up over hitting a lot under pressure.

As a former junk baller i can safely say that they usually love base-liners, especially blasters. I used to love playing blasters with their huge shots who thought they were the best. I would then end up beating them 6-0 with my variety and spin.

Now i'm an all-courter but resort to junk balling if i'm completely out-classed.

As a former junk baller i can safely say that they usually love base-liners, especially blasters. I used to love playing blasters with their huge shots who thought they were the best. I would then end up beating them 6-0 with my variety and spin.

Now i'm an all-courter but resort to junk balling if i'm completely out-classed.

OMGosh I love this. My hubby and I have only played about 5 years but HE is the natural athlete and is very clever and tricky. Full of junk shots and spin and placement.

I told him to hit like a man and work on his top spin ground strokes and drives, and now I beat him much more because I can get to the balls now, LOL

For people who like to swing out and play someone with pace, there is NOTHING worse than junk balls !

2.5 to 3.5) A pusher just gets the ball back. Zero weapons.
3.5 to 4.0) A junk-baller gets the ball back with varying spin and placement.
4.0+) A counter-puncher can get the ball back by hitting a strong forehand stroke.

To me, it is all pushing. It is a mindset. All three archetypes focus on trying to make the opponent take bad shots. All three feed on the frustration of their opponents. All three like their opponents to bring the game to them... as opposed to vice versa.

Right now, I'd classify myself as a junk-baller/spin doctor/chopper. I have a decent serve. I have great placement, varying depth, lots of crazy spins, mad defense. Once I get a big forehand topspin shot, I'll be a counter puncher.

I agree. It is about mindset. And yes a counterpunch is a really good pusher who is also able to go out on attack when possible. So he first get the ball back, ideally with a lot of spin or angled, and if he gets a powerfull ball in his wheelhouse (or a sitter), he puts it away (using the pace of his opponent, instead of creating it his self).

Aggressive playes have a mindset to make winners. To outplay their opponents by making the shot using pace or angles or position in court.

Most of the top Pros simply impose their games on their opponents. They do what they are best at and believe they're better at the top style than playing their 2nd or 3rd best style.

But ... Bill Tilden was known for beating *his* opponents at their best style. Asked why, his answer was, That way all they have to fall back on is their weaknesses.

What do you think?

- KK

Hi KK,

I think that is very wise. Hence why it is not good to avoid someone's weakness. It might break down that day

Having taken more lessons during the past year, I come to the game with a different mindset than when I was scrambling. :-/

Instead of styles, I am playing more the geometry of the court along with the Wardlaw Directionals ... my FH is my weapon with my serve coming in 2nd, so I feel confident about OHs as well. If I am pulled wide on the deuce side, of course hitting DTL is still "back into the court" so to speak.

This approach gives me less to think about. I'm not so worried about whether someone has a good BH or FH or whether they are R or L handed as much as getting my balls deep into the corners, getting my serves deep, and mixing the high roller with the drive.

Having a groin injury I don't run back so fast any more for the OH but I try to take everything in the air instead of letting it bounce. And ground strokes on the rise as close to the ground as possible focusing upon placement and robbing opponent of time, rather than their style. Waiting for the short ball and getting to pick from my geometric options.

This way I am thinking more about what is going on on my side of the net and worrying less about the opponent. If they play better, whatever style, they will win, and I go back to practicing my combination of shots and further refine my 2-H BH.

This approach allows me to watch the ball much more closely, keep my head still, and not get so distracted with where or what my opponent is up to. I'm not saying this is right for all time, but it is what I am working on now and has brought me a lot more peace of mind when playing.