The American military amazed Moscow and the Russian media by saying that Russian-made fighter planes were superior to their American equivalents. How can these flattering revelations be explained?

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

USA Today reported: We may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we thought we were, said Gen. Hal Hornburg, the chief of the Air Combat Command, which oversees U.S. fighter and bomber wings...The F-15Cs are the Air Force's primary air superiority aircraft...[and] the results of the exercise [were] wake up call.

The Inside the Air Force official newsletter also discussed the "Russian victory," and reported even more details. F-15 C/D Eagle fighters were pitted against not only Su-30 MKI fighters but also MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and even the older MiG-21 Bisons, which also performed well. The fighters not only defeated the F-15s but the French-made Mirage-2000 as well. According to the Washington ProFile Web site, the results of the exercises surprised the American pilots.

Meanwhile, Russian military experts and aircraft designers did not seem surprised by these victories. The Sukhoi general designer, Mikhail Simonov, has repeatedly told RIA Novosti and other news agencies the Su-27 Flanker and the Su-30 MKI, a modified version of the Flanker, which are now in service in the Indian Air Force, were developed in the 1980s in response to the F-15 Eagle. Moreover, Soviet designers had stipulated far superior specifications. Consequently, Russian experts were not particularly surprised that the performance of the fighters matched their specifications.

Why did an American general publicly admit this fact four months after the exercises?

India's Su-30 MKI fighters and F-15 C/D Eagles from Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, engaged in mock combat exercises in February 2004. However, no one mentioned that India won three of the four exercises at the time.

Russian fighters first defeated their US rivals when Sukhoi and MiG fighters had just started being shown at international aerospace shows in the early 1990s. At that time, several Su-27 fighters, under the command of Maj.-Gen. Alexander Kharchevsky, the head of the Lipetsk center for retraining air force pilots, went to Canada to demonstrate their impressive potential. (President Vladimir Putin flew in a Su-27 to Chechnya.)

Instead of missiles and artillery shells, Russian and American fighter planes used aerial cameras to record their mock air-to-air battles. American fighters were disappointed to learn the results of exercise - their cameras had not captured any Su-27s. The Russians, however, had filmed their rivals' vulnerable points from just about every angle.

Russian pilots owed their impressive success to the Su-27's spectacular performance and its substantial thrust-to-weight ratio. The fighter's unsurpassed performance has already become well known throughout the world because no other fighter (except MiG fighters) can execute such impressive stunts as Pugachev's Cobra and others.

The F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 have wide turning radii. Russian fighters, on the other hand, can turn on a dime by merely switch on their afterburners.

Apart from in Canada, MiG-29 fighters also fought mock air battles with South Africa's Mirage-2000s. Again, the Russia planes defeated their enemies.

Chief designer Arkady Slobodskoi, the supervisor of the MiG-29 program, said, "if our plane is within range of an opponent and has a direct shot, the enemy can be considered destroyed. It only takes 5-6 machine gun bursts."

The United States, which is aware of the impressive combat potential of Russian fighters, had even purchased a squadron of MiG-29s from Moldova after the Soviet Union disintegrated. (That squadron was deployed at an airfield near Chisinau.) Germany, which had obtained a number of MiG-29s after reunification, helped repair the Moldovan fighters. Both Germany and the United States now use these aircraft to train their pilots, so that the pilots can cope with the 7,000 Russian fighters in the world. Britain's Military Balance magazine estimated that India had more than 500 Russian-made fighters. It was therefore not surprising that Indian pilots could defeat their American rivals, despite the U.S. Air Force's intensive combat-training programs.

On the other hand, American pilots have not confronted any serious adversaries for a long time. The U.S. Air Force dominated the skies over Yugoslavia in 1999 and in Iraq in 1991 and 2003. Iraqi planes were grounded during both campaigns. Therefore, mock combat is the only way to amass experience.

The long standing American Air Force mentality prevents its pilots from confronting their Russian counterparts because any possible setback would be detrimental to morale. An American Air Force pilot must be convinced that he can and must defeat the former "theoretical enemy." At the same time, these problems do not exist for mock combat exercises against Indian pilots because any defeats can be explained by inadequate training.

Why did the United States inform the world about its setbacks? Neither Russian, nor U.S. generals like to do this.

The explanation lies on the surface: The U.S. Congress discusses defense spending for the next fiscal year every June and therefore, top American military officials started talking about events in February 2004 now.

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As I have said elsewhere, the rest of the world knows that the Russians produce the best of the best in terms of air fighters, but the US military is only just now realising this?

Open your eyes and look down through the threads Russophile. If you did, you would know all about the politics behind the affair (ie. the USAF's attempts to sell the F-22 to politicians), as well as the staged and rather unrealistic scenarios in which the exercises took place. Hell, the Su-30MKI didn't even take part in the exercises. Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent fighter, but what makes it so in many ways are the parts of it that aren't Russian.

"As I have said elsewhere, the rest of the world knows that the Russians produce the best of the best in terms of air fighters,"

That kind of attitude is the last thing the CIS aerospace industry needs.

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

When is everyone finally going to figure out that India did not field the Su 30 MKI in Cope Thunder , they were the Su 30 K's/MK1's .

The Su 30 MKI has more design and performance characteristics similar to the Su 37 while not exactly the same and will be comparable to the F 22 , exactly what the USAF generals are trying to showcase and get the funding they want.

Even if enough MKI's were around i doubt if the Indian Govt would allow the IAF to parade the true capability. I am sure all the aircraft that participated , US as well as Indian, were defanged befiore being sent out.

L-188: Remember a story about the russains firing an AK47 into the windscreen as an answer to how durable the helicopter was, sounds a bit dramatic though hehe. Someone else probably know the whole story about that.

The reason, There was 3 inches of new snow on the ground, so there was no contrast for the IR gear on the Apache to see anything. So they had to follow the OH-58, with a pilot wearing a 2500 dollar set of NVG light intensifying gogles home.

I think I will underestimate the Russians in this case. Equipment is only half the battle... well trained and experienced pilots are required to opperate these contraptions. Terrific if an Mi-28 can pull circles around an Apache, but if the crew can't find the laser targeting toggle they might as well take it apart and use the fuel tank to brew vodka.

LY 744 , not wanting to get into and argument out here , but on what grounds ? Performance , avionics , maneuverability which one ? National pride is one thing , but on a forum of this nature , please back up your comments with some documentation . The F 22 may indeed be superior to the Su 30 MKI or the Su 37 I really dont deny that , but some documentation or a comparison would help.

Even if we'll assume that Su-30 and MiG 29 are superior to their western counterparts, the next generation of the US fighters simply leaves Russia with nothing. (I am talking mainly about avionics)

LY7E7 , US and western avionics are indeed superior to their Russian counterparts , but taking the Su 30 MKI for example , none of the avionics is russian , with the exception of the radar . All mission computers are a mix and match of French , Israeli and Indian avionics. This has been the ongoing trend for the last couple of purchases.

Even in fighter combat, training and doctrine are at least as important in deciding who wins as technology is. It is hard to get a good comparison when both sides use different training techniques and strategies. That is how the Israelis have won every single air war they have fought. In World War II, the Germans lost the air war in the West once they could not longer afford the fuel to train their pilots - they never even came close to running out of planes. Later in Korea, the Mig-15 and the F-86 were virtually equal. Yet the US did much better than their opponents because of their training and leadership. The US also managed to turn around its air-to-air kill ration in Vietnam by improving training.

The more significant finding in the latest exercises may be that some airforces have managed to at least equal the US in training and doctrine. The Su-30 as an airframe/engine combination probably is superior to the F-15, considering they were designed later and with the F-15 in mind. If you take into account superior USAF avionics and weapons, my guess is the advantage goes back to the F-15. But this is immaterial. In a situation this closely matched, it is how the planes are used that counts the most.

In the absence of a MAJOR technical advantage for one side such as stealth, technology does not decide the outcome of battles. Training and leadership do. Even where there is a major technical advantage for one side, it is often wasted by poor command decisions (remember Hitler's obsession with the jet bomber, at the expense of fighters?) or is irrelevant to the situation at hand (remember Vietnam?).

IN SHORT..... Technology is not and will never be as important as people in war. Or in any other part of life, for that matter. The human factor is the decisive factor.

BTW, according to AvWeek, USAF now has 51 F-22s ordered, with 22 in the order for FY2004. The way that supply chain works, that means the parts and such have long since been in the pipeline. In any case, that's enough F-22s to give any other power a major headache.

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt

I am thinking along these lines, there are several very very good Russian fighters that have come out in the past 15 years. I think the Mig-29 and F-15 could match up fairly even. I think the F-16 can still give most modern fighters a good run. But F-16's and F-15s are damn old, and there is no way they can compare to newer Sukhoi aircraft in performance. I would say that in the old days, the Russians made up the performance difference with missile technology. Don't know how they fare today, but Russian missiles were very very good.

Today, I think the F-22 represents top tier performance and superiority. It may not be the best in close in fighting, but it is meant to gain surperiority well before that happens. It avionics / radar / jamming suite is the best in the world. I would like to see it up against the best. I think it would win hands down.

Just my $.02,

Shawn

Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive

25 LMP737
: Indianflyboy: Don't take this the wrong way but I think you are guilty of the same thing you say LY744 is guilty of. I belive it was you who said "The

26 IndianFlyboy
: Hi LMP737, Not taking it the wrong way at all. In fact I did not mean to be rude or sarcastic to LY 744 in any way. If you read that post I had made I

27 Nealcg
: Not wanting to totally dive into this but isn't the Sukoi to F22 comparison rather pointless. The F22 is designed for Air Superiority, not dog fightin