Irving’e karşı Lipstadt

Transcripts

About two pages from the end, is that a letter from me to 1somebody called Mrs Weckert dated June 3rd 1979? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. I wonder if I am looking at the 4wrong thing? 5MR IRVING: It is two pages from the end of that little bundle, 6my Lord. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it has found its way here. It 8does not appear in my clip, at any rate not two pages from 9the end? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is the one with 693 in the top right hand corner. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does the 693 indicate that that letter was in my 12discovery? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am sure it does. 14MR IRVING: Am I replying in that letter to a sehr ausfuhrliche 15Darstellung which this lady has sent to me? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am thanking her for a very ---- 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Extensive. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Extensive description. 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you accept that this was a description of the events 22of the Kristallnacht as she has researched it up to that 23point? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I accept that that is her tendentious account of the 25Reichskristallnacht. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. Will you look in the second paragraph and see

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1that I make criticisms already of her account and suggest 2that I am not going to go along with everything that she 3writes? You cannot just dismiss the report of the SA 4Group -- do I write that? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You write that, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
This will certainly interest you most of all? I also 7refer to the diary of von Hassell, the diary of Grosfort 8and other contemporary sources? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, Mr Irving. As I have already said, I do not say that 10you take over all her ideas. You do not, for example, 11depict, as she does, the pogrom of the Reichskristallnacht 12as devised and put forward by Zionists in order to cast 13opprobrium on the Nazi regime and cause it to fall. Even 14you have some scruples, Mr Irving. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is possible that an amateur historian like Ingrid Weckert 16will succeed by her obsessive diligence in turning up 17items, or documents, or conversations with people that she 18conducted, that would be use to the general body of 19historical opinion? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I would not regard her as an amateur historian, Mr Irving. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
An amateur writer, an amateur chronicler? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Answer the thrust of the question, Professor 23Evans. 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
There is always a possibility, yes, of course, that anyone 25can do that. 26MR IRVING: Is this the kind of correspondence you would expect

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1to see between one writer and another where one writer is 2saying, "I found this kind of thing", and the other writer 3writes back and says, "well, I think you got this right 4but you got that wrong, here are some documents that 5I have got" -- does this go on? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have not said that you take over all her ideas, or that 7you agree with absolutely everything she says. The fact 8remains, Mr Irving, that in your accounts of the 9Reichskristallnacht some years later than 1979, and after 10she had published her work in the course of the 1980s, you 11do adopt a number of her ideas. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen the lengthy Darstellung that she sent me? 13It was in the discovery. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We used her book and her ---- 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have used her book? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Wait a minute, and the articles with the pencil lines in 17the margin. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have used her articles, but have you seen the lengthy 19typescript letter she sent me with all the details of the 20research that she had done? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We have not used that in the report, Mr Irving. We have 22used her -- this is not a report about Frau Weckert and 23her works. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
But quite a lot of it is about her, is it not? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The report is about you, and your use of her work. There 26are one, two, three, four, five, about half a dozen pages

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1here about your reliance on aspects of her work rather 2than on your own research. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
The inference you are giving in your report -- I am going 4it move on very shortly from this -- is that I have 5relied on her book. You go in great detail into her 6book. You say that her book has been black listed by the 7Germans. It has been put on the censorship list, has it? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is illegal to sell or lend it to any person under the 9age of 18 because it is regarded by the authorities as an 10anti-semitic work which is liable to corrupt young minds, 11and also shows no evidence of even minimal attempts at 12truthfulness and objectivity. Let me say once again, 13Mr Irving, that what I demonstrate in my report is that 14you have taken some, although not all, of Ingrid Weckert's 15ideas from her writings, from her articles, which then 16were reprinted and put together as the book. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you have not made no reference at all to the fact that 18I had from her a lengthy special Darstellung which she 19wrote at my request and which has no reference to her 20book, which is the thing that has been banned and on which 21I pass critical comment? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Are you claiming that this is entirely different from the 23book and the articles, it says completely things and that 24that is what you use in your book, Mr Irving? I do not 25think so. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
In the corner of the world where you come from, Professor

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1Evans, do you agree with the censoring of books, 2blacklisting of books? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we need to get into that. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is an entirely different matter. 5MR IRVING: Why did you mention it then in this report? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Because the German authorities have investigated her work 7and decided after the investigation that it is 8anti-semitic, corrupting and shows no evidence of even 9minimal attempts at truthfulness or objectivity. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
As you said earlier, have we anything---- 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What they do as a result of that is a matter for them. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have we anything to learn from Germany in this last 13century about freedom of speech? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that question helps, Mr 15Irving. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I take that as a rhetorical question, Mr Irving. 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. Leave me to deal with the question. 18MR IRVING: In paragraph 10 on page 308 you object to the fact 19that I have corrected a wrong date to a correct date. 20What on earth is wrong with that? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry, where is this? 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
In paragraph 10 on page 308. You say he unilaterally 23alters the date of arrival of Goebbels back in Berlin. 24I have corrected a wrong date to a correct date. What is 25wrong with that? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]