Was never impressed with him. I don't know why. I mean, I can see what people might be excited about but the league and every draft is full of "potential". It's kinda like, if it was going to happen, it would've happened.

I mean, I can see what people might be excited about but the league and every draft is full of "potential". It's kinda like, if it was going to happen, it would've happened.

The kid is 21. You telling me that by 21 that's it, he's not going to develop more? Pretty sure the NBA has a long list of players that took multiple years of learning what it it takes to be a pro before they 'got it'. Josh Smith is probably the best comparison I could make there, a guy who had terrible shot selection, no concept of team play on the offensive end and who loafed through most games until suddenly, for no apparent reason, someone or something got through to him last year and he stopped jacking up 3s and started concentrating. Only took him 6 years.

I can tell you right now why you're not impressed with Randolph: he plays like an ass. He looks for his own first, forces the issue, he shoots too many jumpers, he doesn't play within an offense, he gambles and he's hard-headed. Know why? He played for Don nelson for 2 years, and the only way he could earn any court time was when he played the helter-skelter non-system that is Nellie Ball, because Don Nelson is absolutely god awful at developing players. You need advanced offensive skills to play Nellie Ball, your defense is irrelevant since Nelson doesn't give two shits about it, and unless you can play like a one or a two, your ass will be nailed to the bench. Kinda tough for a raw 19-year old still growing into his body that only played one season of college ball.

Randolph played a total of 1878 minutes in his first two years as a pro. DeRozan played 1664 in his first season alone and look at where his skill level is right now. What Randolph needs is a defined role, stability and good patient coaching along with a couple more summers of working on his jumper, footwork and learning to use his athleticism.

I look at it this way: if you could put Randolph into this year's draft (a draft without a clear can't-miss prospect outside of possibly Irving), you'd have to think he'd go top-10 easily. Now consider the Raps' likely draft position, in the 8-13 range. Are you going to find someone better there? History says the odds are slim.

The kid is 21. You telling me that by 21 that's it, he's not going to develop more? Pretty sure the NBA has a long list of players that took multiple years of learning what it it takes to be a pro before they 'got it'.

This is true but most of those guys probably didn't have multiple red flags from the get go. I can name you countless players who had potential and red flags and didn't amount to anything much at the NBA level.

Nine New Faces wrote:

Josh Smith is probably the best comparison I could make there, a guy who had terrible shot selection, no concept of team play on the offensive end and who loafed through most games until suddenly, for no apparent reason, someone or something got through to him last year and he stopped jacking up 3s and started concentrating. Only took him 6 years.

Josh Smith, age 21:

16.4 PPG, 2.9 BLK, 1.4 STL, 3.3 AST, 8.6 REB

Nine New Faces wrote:

I can tell you right now why you're not impressed with Randolph: he plays like an ass. He looks for his own first, forces the issue, he shoots too many jumpers, he doesn't play within an offense, he gambles and he's hard-headed. Know why? He played for Don nelson for 2 years, and the only way he could earn any court time was when he played the helter-skelter non-system that is Nellie Ball, because Don Nelson is absolutely god awful at developing players.

I'm not buying that. D'Antoni awards guys who show up and work hard. Are you using the fact that Randolph can't cope with change as a defense?

Nine New Faces wrote:

You need advanced offensive skills to play Nellie Ball, your defense is irrelevant since Nelson doesn't give two shits about it, and unless you can play like a one or a two, your ass will be nailed to the bench. Kinda tough for a raw 19-year old still growing into his body that only played one season of college ball.

Andris Biedrins seems counter to what you're explaining. So too does Ronny Turiaf, who had no trouble getting minutes with the Warriors and now is having no trouble getting minutes with the Knicks.

Nine New Faces wrote:

Randolph played a total of 1878 minutes in his first two years as a pro. DeRozan played 1664 in his first season alone and look at where his skill level is right now. What Randolph needs is a defined role, stability and good patient coaching along with a couple more summers of working on his jumper, footwork and learning to use his athleticism.

He's not going to get that in Toronto with $10M/yr locked up in Andrea Bargnani, $6M/yr locked up in Amir Johnson and a lotto pick spent on Ed Davis... A guy who I think happens to have more potential than Randolph and brings abilities to the table that are in need. In other words Davis doesn't have the Raptors' typical redundant skill set. Neither does DeRozan by the way seeing how we're talking about him here too.

Nine New Faces wrote:

I look at it this way: if you could put Randolph into this year's draft (a draft without a clear can't-miss prospect outside of possibly Irving), you'd have to think he'd go top-10 easily. Now consider the Raps' likely draft position, in the 8-13 range. Are you going to find someone better there? History says the odds are slim.

They just drafted Ed Davis in the range and I'd take him over Randolph without blinking.

This is true but most of those guys probably didn't have multiple red flags from the get go. I can name you countless players who had potential and red flags and didn't amount to anything much at the NBA level.

Come on, every player has 'red flags'. Every time I watch DeRozan play I see plenty of them, same with Sonny, Bargs, Amir, Ed Davis, etc etc. Every players has deficiencies, the mark of a good organization is bringing in players that will fit into their system and playing to their strengths (ie San Antonio) while minimizing their weaknesses. Randolph brings a ton of what the Raps need from the 3 spot, with the exception of a polished half court game.

Apollo wrote:

Josh Smith, age 21:

16.4 PPG, 2.9 BLK, 1.4 STL, 3.3 AST, 8.6 REB

Go compare their Per36 numbers from their first 2 seasons, and keep in mind that Randolph only played in 33 games that second year. Smith got double the minutes Randolph did in his first NBA season, but Randolph beats him in a lot of categories including WS/48 and PER. My point about Smith was that it wasn't until he learned to use his game effectively and efficiently that he became a genuinely dominant force. His defensive numbers were always solid, but his offensive game didn't catch up until last season when he realized he was hurting the team by taking bad shots and made the adjustment.

Apollo wrote:

I'm not buying that. D'Antoni awards guys who show up and work hard. Are you using the fact that Randolph can't cope with change as a defense?

You really can't see how Randolph doesn't fit into D'Antoni's system? The Knicks spread the floor around Stoudemire and Randolph doesn't have a reliable outside jumper. Thought that would be pretty obvious.

Apollo wrote:

Andris Biedrins seems counter to what you're explaining. So too does Ronny Turiaf, who had no trouble getting minutes with the Warriors and now is having no trouble getting minutes with the Knicks.

Both of those guys play center, because Nelson and D'Antoni share the philosophy that you always need one big man out there for rebounding purposes (or in Stoudemire's case, for running the pick and roll against slower opponents). Randolph doesn't play center, so that comparison makes little sense. When Turiaf does play PF alongside Stoudemire it's for matchup reasons, and obviously putting Randolph on a guy that Turiaf is better suited to guarding would be a huge mistake.

Apollo wrote:

He's not going to get that in Toronto with $10M/yr locked up in Andrea Bargnani, $6M/yr locked up in Amir Johnson and a lotto pick spent on Ed Davis... A guy who I think happens to have more potential than Randolph and brings abilities to the table that are in need. In other words Davis doesn't have the Raptors' typical redundant skill set. Neither does DeRozan by the way seeing how we're talking about him here too.

As I mentioned above, I see Randolph as a 3. If the raps wanted to play him exclusively as a 4 then I'd agree with you, it'd be pointless. But the Raps have a hole at the 3, an unconventional center that plays outside and lacks defensive and rebounding skills while leaving open space inside on offense, and a mandate to run, all of which make Randolph a good fit on the team in my opinion.

Apollo wrote:

They just drafted Ed Davis in the range and I'd take him over Randolph without blinking.

Let's be honest here; the Raps got very, very lucky with that pick. The thing about picking late in the lottery range is that you don't control who drops to you. The Pistons could just as easily have drafted Davis and Greg Munroe could have fallen to the Raps. Given that the Raps could easily leverage some of their assets into a mid-to-late first rounder should they make the trade, and that someone in the NBA will always be interested in Randolph if he doesn't pan out in Toronto, it just seems like too good an opportunity to pass up.

To be clear - I support trading the Heat pick for Randolph. I would not deal the Raps pick for Randolph before the lotto balls have finished falling. There's ZERO upside in doing that now because noone would trade a top pick for Randolph. A pick in the 25-30 range, why not?

Randolph brings a ton of what the Raps need from the 3 spot, with the exception of a polished half court game.

Nine New Faces wrote:

You really can't see how Randolph doesn't fit into D'Antoni's system? The Knicks spread the floor around Stoudemire and Randolph doesn't have a reliable outside jumper. Thought that would be pretty obvious.

What does he bring that they need at that spot? Outside shooting? Lock down defense? Please explain.

Nine New Faces wrote:

As I mentioned above, I see Randolph as a 3.

I disagree. I don't think he has the foot speed to guard guys at the 3. I think he would be a revolving door. I think that if they were going to trade their own 1st rounder for a prospect there are better options. Personally, I don't think they should trade the pick at all. I think it's going to be a top 10 in the worst case. Best case (in the perspective of draft positioning, not on court performance), they're pushing closer to 5th.

Nine New Faces wrote:

Go compare their Per36 numbers from their first 2 seasons, and keep in mind that Randolph only played in 33 games that second year. Smith got double the minutes Randolph did in his first NBA season, but Randolph beats him in a lot of categories including WS/48 and PER. My point about Smith was that it wasn't until he learned to use his game effectively and efficiently that he became a genuinely dominant force. His defensive numbers were always solid, but his offensive game didn't catch up until last season when he realized he was hurting the team by taking bad shots and made the adjustment.

One could argue the reason why Smith got far more opportunities is because he busts his ass on the court and plays stellar defense. Smith does a lot of things that don't show up on a stats sheet.

Nine New Faces wrote:

Both of those guys play center, because Nelson and D'Antoni share the philosophy that you always need one big man out there for rebounding purposes (or in Stoudemire's case, for running the pick and roll against slower opponents). Randolph doesn't play center, so that comparison makes little sense. When Turiaf does play PF alongside Stoudemire it's for matchup reasons, and obviously putting Randolph on a guy that Turiaf is better suited to guarding would be a huge mistake.

Randolph is a big man who couldn't find minutes on a bigman depleted team. And Turiaf played center and PF for the Warriors.

Nine New Faces wrote:

Let's be honest here; the Raps got very, very lucky with that pick. The thing about picking late in the lottery range is that you don't control who drops to you. The Pistons could just as easily have drafted Davis and Greg Munroe could have fallen to the Raps. Given that the Raps could easily leverage some of their assets into a mid-to-late first rounder should they make the trade, and that someone in the NBA will always be interested in Randolph if he doesn't pan out in Toronto, it just seems like too good an opportunity to pass up.

The Raptors are probably going to be selecting in the 5-10 range and Colangelo has a very good track record with selecting guards and forwards. Not sure why he moves that opportunity for a guy who would be playing on his third team in less than a year. There would be also a lot of uncertainty and risk involved. What if the guy stinks at the 3 in the Raptors system? Suddenly they have four young guys looking for minutes at the 4.

To be clear - I support trading the Heat pick for Randolph. I would not deal the Raps pick for Randolph before the lotto balls have finished falling. There's ZERO upside in doing that now because noone would trade a top pick for Randolph. A pick in the 25-30 range, why not?

What does he bring that they need at that spot? Outside shooting? Lock down defense? Please explain.

1. Rebounding
2. Weakside shotblocking
3. Ability to close out on shooters at the 3-point line due to his length
4. Ability to double team effectively in the post again due to his length
5. Slashing off the ball
6. Ability to post up smaller 3s
7. Fire / energy

Yes he doesn't have a a great outside shot yet, but that's the easiest thing for an NBA player to add over time. With his height he'd be a nightmare to try to close out on if he ever developed it.

Apollo wrote:

I disagree. I don't think he has the foot speed to guard guys at the 3. I think he would be a revolving door. I think that if they were going to trade their own 1st rounder for a prospect there are better options. Personally, I don't think they should trade the pick at all. I think it's going to be a top 10 in the worst case. Best case (in the perspective of draft positioning, not on court performance), they're pushing closer to 5th.

You say he doesn't have the foot speed to guard 3s, I say he has the length to play off of them while still effectively contesting deep shots. Fact is, 9/10ths of the players at the wings in the NBA can't guard their position 1on1 and keep players in front of them. In my opinion Randolph has the physical tools to recover and contest at the 3.

As for the pick, if the lottery was today they'd be selecting 11th. Your best case would have to involve a series of injuries, because unlike the teams below them in the standings, the Raps have the depth to sustain injuries and continue to be (relatively) competitive. My best case is around 8th. As I said before, the raps can afford to trade their pick and still package some expendable assets to get back into the mid first round, where they're just as likely to find a good player as they are at around 10th.

Apollo wrote:

One could argue the reason why Smith got far more opportunities is because he busts his ass on the court and plays stellar defense. Smith does a lot of things that don't show up on a stats sheet.

The Josh Smith playing today is not the same Josh Smith that came into the league as a 19-year old. He got minutes because that team went 13-69 and was absolutely god awful. The knock on Smith had always been that he played apathetic, inconsistent ball, only showing glimpses but more often than not playing without using his head.

Apollo wrote:

Randolph is a big man who couldn't find minutes on a bigman depleted team. And Turiaf played center and PF for the Warriors.

In no way does Randolph play like a big man. Much like young Bargs, he's a 3 trapped in a 6'11 body. Unlike bargs, randolph has the coordination and athleticism to use it. Asking Randolph to play center is like asking Austin Daye to play center. Players that have also been in Nelson's doghouse over the course of their careers: Nowitzki, Nash, Ellis, etc. Go read some of the GSW blogs and their reactions to Nelson's inconsistent and inexplicable rotations. Randolph may have had maturity issues, but most young players do. As I've maintained, stability, defined expectations and consistent playing time would likely do wonders for the kid.

Apollo wrote:

The Raptors are probably going to be selecting in the 5-10 range and Colangelo has a very good track record with selecting guards and forwards. Not sure why he moves that opportunity for a guy who would be playing on his third team in less than a year. There would be also a lot of uncertainty and risk involved. What if the guy stinks at the 3 in the Raptors system? Suddenly they have four young guys looking for minutes at the 4.

Just as BC has a good track record in the draft, he also has a good track record of fixing his mistakes by shipping them out. Like I said, GMs will always be interesting in Randolph's potential and if it's simply a case of fit then his stock will maintain it's value. Bayless is playing on his third team in less than a year. Sonny Weems isn't far off that. it's not as if Randolph has been dumped for salary relief, GS traded their glut of wings for the traditional big man / pick and roll presence that they desperately needed, and New york would be trading him in order to facilitate a trade for Melo.

As for suggesting that a he's more risky than a draft pick in the 5-10 range, I simply disagree.

again, this isn't even a question because he is better than everyone on this team and in the 2011 draft...i hated him at lsu but u you cannot deny his skills...this guy is a future all star player as soon as ppl stop jerking him around

Not a chance, folks. Better ballhandler, worse rebounder... basically better offensive skills with no D. does that really remind you of Amir (especially prior to this year). I'm not talking #s either, I know Amir is efficient, but he doesn't have the ballhandling skills that randolph had in high school. fact.

As for the pick, if the lottery was today they'd be selecting 11th. Your best case would have to involve a series of injuries, because unlike the teams below them in the standings, the Raps have the depth to sustain injuries and continue to be (relatively) competitive. My best case is around 8th. As I said before, the raps can afford to trade their pick and still package some expendable assets to get back into the mid first round, where they're just as likely to find a good player as they are at around 10th.

He's more risky than the Raps' current opportunity to pick in that range b/c they could still win the lottery. If they move out of the lotter or end up with a pick from 8-10 then it makes more sense to compare, salary, upside, positional need and years under control. For now it does not make sense and the Raps don't need Randolph this year. So... either trade the Heat pick or wait until the offseason.

i think the biggest issue with AR is he isnt a 3! hes a 4 trapped in a female frame! on top of that he does not fit what we need for the 3 spot...if we plan to use DD or dare i say Crummy Weems at the 2 then we def need a 3 who can shoot from outside... & with our horrible track record guarding wings we def. need a 3 who can lock it down...AR does not address any of these area's.... hes a talent... but def not a talent we currently need...hes a guy who is supposed to be more of an offensive threat but yet he has horrible FG% & he couldnt score in a high octaine offence...someone really needs to strap AR down to a buffett table & then maybe hell fit his role with some team... maybe he should hang out more with eddie curry LOL

1. Rebounding
2. Weakside shotblocking
3. Ability to close out on shooters at the 3-point line due to his length
4. Ability to double team effectively in the post again due to his length
5. Slashing off the ball
6. Ability to post up smaller 3s
7. Fire / energy

Yes he doesn't have a a great outside shot yet, but that's the easiest thing for an NBA player to add over time. With his height he'd be a nightmare to try to close out on if he ever developed it.

You say he doesn't have the foot speed to guard 3s, I say he has the length to play off of them while still effectively contesting deep shots. Fact is, 9/10ths of the players at the wings in the NBA can't guard their position 1on1 and keep players in front of them. In my opinion Randolph has the physical tools to recover and contest at the 3.

A lot of this is opinion based and so it's pointless to continue. We probably shouldn't have carried it this far because we're wasting time trying to change each others' mind and it's not happening.

Nine New Faces wrote:

The Josh Smith playing today is not the same Josh Smith that came into the league as a 19-year old. He got minutes because that team went 13-69 and was absolutely god awful. The knock on Smith had always been that he played apathetic, inconsistent ball, only showing glimpses but more often than not playing without using his head.

I gave you Josh Smith's stat line at age 21, the same age Randolph is now. The Warriors were absolutely horrible over the past two seasons. They won 26 games last year, Randolph's second year in the league. Josh Smiths second year in the league the Hawks won 26 games.

Nine New Faces wrote:

Players that have also been in Nelson's doghouse over the course of their careers: Nowitzki, Nash, Ellis, etc. Go read some of the GSW blogs and their reactions to Nelson's inconsistent and inexplicable rotations. Randolph may have had maturity issues, but most young players do. As I've maintained, stability, defined expectations and consistent playing time would likely do wonders for the kid.

Not to nit pick here but come on now. Define "dog house" if you're going to use Dirk and Steve in that sentence. Anyway, I'm not arguing that the young guys needs PT to develop, I'm saying I hope it's not here.

Nine New Faces wrote:

Just as BC has a good track record in the draft, he also has a good track record of fixing his mistakes by shipping them out. Like I said, GMs will always be interesting in Randolph's potential and if it's simply a case of fit then his stock will maintain it's value. Bayless is playing on his third team in less than a year. Sonny Weems isn't far off that. it's not as if Randolph has been dumped for salary relief, GS traded their glut of wings for the traditional big man / pick and roll presence that they desperately needed

Good point but Bayless and Weems didn't cost the Raptors a high lottery pick like you're proposing with Randolph.

Nine New Faces wrote:

As for suggesting that a he's more risky than a draft pick in the 5-10 range, I simply disagree.

Colangelo has a far better track record in using picks than in dealing them.

Traded future 1st rounder to Miami in package for Marion's expiring contract and to rid himself of Jermaine O'Neal

DoNDaDDa wrote:

i think the biggest issue with AR is he isnt a 3! hes a 4 trapped in a female frame! on top of that he does not fit what we need for the 3 spot...if we plan to use DD or dare i say Crummy Weems at the 2 then we def need a 3 who can shoot from outside... & with our horrible track record guarding wings we def. need a 3 who can lock it down...AR does not address any of these area's.... hes a talent... but def not a talent we currently need...hes a guy who is supposed to be more of an offensive threat but yet he has horrible FG% & he couldnt score in a high octaine offence...

I hear you. Last season and this season combined, he's not even a 43% shooter from the field. He has zero outside range and contrary to some things said in here, it's not easy to develop long range when you can't even find consistency from in closer.

One would also think that a guy being proclaimed as being good with the ball in his hands would have a better AST to TO ratio than 0.72...

The answer is absolutely unequivocally yes. Anthony Randolph himself was a 14th rounder, and although he hasn't played or hasn't been given the opportunity, he's certainly worth more than Miami's pick, which will most certainly end up being a late 20s pick.

We have a shit team. And on shit teams, players get more chances than anywhere else. I'd trade the Miami pick for Randolph in a heartbeat, let him play his heart out for the rest of this season and next. There is a very small chance we end up drafting someone better than Randolph with the 27th or 28th overall pick, and I'll take those odds every day.

The answer is absolutely unequivocally yes. Anthony Randolph himself was a 14th rounder, and although he hasn't played or hasn't been given the opportunity, he's certainly worth more than Miami's pick, which will most certainly end up being a late 20s pick.

We have a shit team. And on shit teams, players get more chances than anywhere else. I'd trade the Miami pick for Randolph in a heartbeat, let him play his heart out for the rest of this season and next. There is a very small chance we end up drafting someone better than Randolph with the 27th or 28th overall pick, and I'll take those odds every day.

Would you trade a pick somewhere between 5th and 10th overall though? That's the debate.

Randolph could be a very good player if he weighed at least 245 pounds. But to achieve that he'd have to put on 345 pounds. I'd be ok with trading a low-first-rounder for him, but not anything higher than 15.

Have a look at Tyler Honeycutt at 17, can shoot the 3, plays defense and rebounds the ball. According to draft express, he will be available at 17. That guy is a player to keep a tab on - he is a Nicolas Batum-like mode of player.