Did not analyse the circuit of the iso-x yet but with standard studio line level you can not even push the 6dB without heavy distortion. And also with no gain the sound is really not good. Could send some sound files later if anybody is interested in.

Quote:

but I believe it's easier to design a discrete circuit that doesn't mess with a signal's phase than an IC circuit.

Interesting that you say "easy". I build my own mixer using standard NE5532 or OPA604/OPA634 ICs. For me it's easier to build up a simple IC designed circuit. And if you take care of a good supply (various capacitors near by every IC voltage input), short links at important places in the circuit and good elements (maybe avoid electrolytic capacitors?) you get a sound and measurement results that beat every mixer.

I don't think it's easier to design discrete stuff compared to IC-based ones. Anyone can design for example a IC-based gain stage with a gain of 10,
try to do that using 2 or 3 transistors/FETs and try to get even close to the IC version when it comes to distortion. That require a lot of knowledge.

The "Warm Sound" in discrete/Tube stuff is mostly added distortion (harmonics) and this distortion is removed in IC-designs due to how OPs works internally.
All discrete/tube designs add distortion, then depending on the design you can control how much and what type it is.
Also many high quality discrete designs works in Class-A and have high quality/high voltage PSU's, something that ICs don't.

It's much easier to create something using IC's, and as bossa_nolyx write, by using good quality components, a good core design, PSU/filtering and PCB design
you can get fantastic results using ICs,even better than most modern commercial club-mixers.

isn't the tightness of the feel of the pot a specification option? I know I've felt different modpots, both brand new, but with very diff. levels of torque required for movement...

Not sure, but I have heard that the pots on the Rane are a lot looser to the ones on the LE even though it's the same pot :-/ So there must be some truth in what you are saying.
Saying that when I brought my LE new some of the pots were looser than others i.e. Phono 1 was looser than the rest whilst Aux 4 was the tightest, the rest all felt roughly the same.

__________________

--The future scares me, any chance of a lift back to the past any one?--

The RK27 loose their tight feeling over time. A few month intensiv mixing and you can't compare it to a new one.

On my Iso-X every knob feels different.

They are fantastic if they are new, but later they feel much worse. unfortunately.

I also recognized on standard potentiometers that the mechanical resistance increases by tighten the nut much stronger. But I think this normally destroys the pot... Didn't want to try this with a 12€-pot...

I love the Bozak ISO-X. It is quite underrated IMO, but more as a studio piece. It does color the sound though even at neutral settings -- then again so does a Pultec, and a UREI LA-2A, and most any other classic piece of gear.

Discrete to me sounds different though there are many, many variables to a circuit of course... To me there's something about the sound that "goes farther" but at the same time is "easier" sounding, even under distortion.

Most of my favorite gear (LA-2A, old tube amps, tape machines, Passive EQs) is full of distortion though, when you get down to it, be it inductor/transformer distortion or tube distortion or weird phenomena with impedances. Even the UREI 1620 owes a lot of its personality to its (distortion-introducing) output transformers. I actually put an old pair of them on my Soul Sonic discrete mixer and love the "muscle" of it.

I'm sure a Pioneer DJM mixer has vastly superior THD and Noise characteristics to all the stuff I like.

i have a badly finished DJ mixer of partly my own design and after much chopping and changing i opted for transformer line ins but a buffered out.

That way the character of the transformer remains more of a constant than being driven by a circuit in front of it for the output.

i'd like to refine the design or possibly get someone to finish my own design professionally.... But I am waiting for Justin's mixer too.

i quite like a lot of mixers, some of the denon's are o.k. The Ranes, formula sound and some of the a&h mixers are o.k. i don't like pioneers and i love the e&s portable.... I use a digital Urei and find it great but not perfect.

I'm in the camp that believes nothing is perfect unless you can get or afford your perfect custom job.

I'm pretty frigg'n floored with a Mackie D4. Better than Xone sound. Not quite as good as Biamp's bass but better highs, no grain, and flat (no 1dB trend in favor of highs). Great filters. Useful EQs. Phenomenal mic preamps and Onyx firewire 24/96 in/out section... way better than any interface I've ever had, including two Emus. And it can sort of kind of work as a rotary if you use the send/returns like it was opposite day. My only complaints: I still think DJ digital mixers do better summing than analog DJ mixers, gets hot and needs to be on a laptop cooler (easy fix, does it mean it's running class A inside or something?), the meters are only one color and need to be run in a strange way to prevent the filters overloading, and the line faders' default curve is idiotic and needs tweaking internally with some pot adjustments, which I haven't done yet. If I could wire the send/return knobs in reverse and put bigger knobs on them, I'd be very content with dual fader and rotary function. Anyway. None of you probably wanted to hear that, but thought I'd contribute.

On the S/N ratio front and some of the other stuff, I think Elliot Marx once mentioned to me that getting good transient response sometimes meant sacrificing a little noise floor to get it. So maybe you should just think about getting your Urei serviced. Check with local music gear stores and hospitals for freelance electronics repair people. The people who work for some of these hospitals are a cut above. The mods you have on your Urei are golden ones, especially the cue feature.

__________________
The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

we're lucky on this board to have so many mixer designers, sound pros & even djs all dedicated to playback with quality gear.

as far as gear goes, mixer choice seems to always be the driving force behind our passion as djs, it's our tool for the mix and becomes an extension of our mind.

I think I would prob. buy an A&H Xone92.. this is based on layout, tools and usability, price, dj riders, ease of use for all platforms, multiple sends and returns.. all for about 1,000

if you want boutique and such and money is no object the choice gets harder! because ideally you would want to listen to every mixer and test before buying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pern

I don't think it's easier to design discrete stuff compared to IC-based ones. Anyone can design for example a IC-based gain stage with a gain of 10,
try to do that using 2 or 3 transistors/FETs and try to get even close to the IC version when it comes to distortion. That require a lot of knowledge.

The "Warm Sound" in discrete/Tube stuff is mostly added distortion (harmonics) and this distortion is removed in IC-designs due to how OPs works internally.
All discrete/tube designs add distortion, then depending on the design you can control how much and what type it is.
Also many high quality discrete designs works in Class-A and have high quality/high voltage PSU's, something that ICs don't.

It's much easier to create something using IC's, and as bossa_nolyx write, by using good quality components, a good core design, PSU/filtering and PCB design
you can get fantastic results using ICs,even better than most modern commercial club-mixers.

Good mixer in so far as specs and usefulness in the studio too, its been around for a while but I havent seen anyone using one yet. I will try it out soon to hear the difference between it and the xone92

I haven't seen any new ones available for quite a while. It's worth the soundcard in it alone. Better fidelity than any of my interfaces before, and that includes Emu's "miracle DAC" chip ones. Many times the ins/outs, too.

Make sure you run the meters as mentioned in the manual. It's to prevent the filters from overloading. It can't be run like a Xone can. Neither could the Biamps, which were even more abrupt overloaders (almost like brick wall 0dBFS in digital domain on those).

I also recommend running it on top of a laptop cooler. There's a buttload of heat-generating stuff inside.

Besides that, the other thing I'd like to do is get in there and change the pots that supposedly control the fader curves, but there are a lot of screws to take off on the front to do it and you need a volt meter to adjust them. A rotary version with a built-in 120mm fan on the bottom would sell like hotcakes. Well, there's always the send-receive knobs if you don't mind them working backwards.

While the bass isn't quite as tight as the SCM7500/7600, it's pretty close and the sound isn't euphonic or sweetened to my ears like the Xones, but without the Biamp's hardness and coldness. It's a very happy medium. Likes to be loud and it likes speakers that can dish out extended highs. There is a lot of musical information this interface & mixer can flesh out with the right system.

My only sonic complaint about it is the slight lack of ultimate in-the-blend transparency that some minimalist two-channel designs and (I know it's sacrilege but...) some of the best digital mixers can manage. That's a hard thing to judge, though, and the filters, features, and overall analog goodness make up for it.

Oh, and watch out for that headphone jack. It's ridiculously powerful. You might want to wrap the knob so you don't grab it accidentally in the dark.

__________________
The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.