You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

Welcome to BZPower!

Hi there, while we hope you enjoy browsing through the site, there's a lot more you can do if you register. The process is easy and you can use your Google, Facebook, or Twitter account to make it even faster. Some perks of joining include:

Create your own topics, participate in existing discussions, and vote in polls

Show off your creations, stories, art, music, and movies and play member and staff-run games

Enter contests to win free LEGO sets and other prizes, and vote to decide the winners

Participate in raffles, including exclusive raffles for new members, and win free LEGO sets

Send private messages to other members

Organize with other members to attend or send your MOCs to LEGO fan events all over the world

Again, what I'm saying is in terms of the toughness and brittleness versus metallic bending tendency, it's probably comparable to LEGO-style plastic. Which also does not bend much, and if it does, doesn't bend like what we normally think of with metal (like an aluminum can for example).

I'm not saying purified protodermis would be literally plastic, but it clearly seems to have some traits that seem more like plastic than normal metals. It would still have metallic traits as well. You could probably best call it metal in summary, but it's also possible (being the purified state of a highly complex molecules, rather than some atomic element like iron, which is an important point since plastics are also molecules, not atoms, as far as I recall) that it wouldn't be exactly like any normal-matter material but would share traits of many. Keep in mind it's the purified state of something that in its other forms can imitate the physics of metals, rocks, water, ice, wood, and flesh. So there's every reason to think that state could be "something in between all of them" (though clearly not organic). Clarifying because it seems that point did not get across to some of you in my previous post. I'm not saying "plastic versus metal", I'm saying metal that has some traits more in common with plastic than normal-matter metals. Make sense?

Yes. Makes sense now.

As far as why a crack would mess up the power, my theory is that the molecule's design (whether my cyberclay theory is literally true or not) is such that when a batch of purified protodermis is melted, then solidified, that heat realigned all the molecules with each other so they form an internet-style connection between each molecule. So these connections are not only holding it physically together but actually act like wires between the parts of a computer, and the processing for the power is generated along those connections. So, if you crack it bad enough, you break too many of these connections. Without heat to tell it to realign the connections in a different way (like how our brains will do this to work around some brain injuries), it's stuck like a computer with key wires detached and cannot process the power. This also fits with the less pure molecules having less power; less connections. Perhaps due to some extra molecules or atoms being connected to external "ports", to cause the generation of matter-imitation physics presumably, similar to recent discoveries about epigenetic "methyl group" molecules that will bind to DNA, often for the whole span of a person's life, switching off those parts of DNA, and some may even stick around on the DNA of descendants. So there'd be less processing power internally, and likely less ports for the power to actually be generated from the surface of the mask. And it fits with the three Legendary powers not working in the same way, because IMO all three Legendary powers are programmed into all protodermis molecules (since they're "basic functions" by definition) and in the cases of those masks I think there's simply a switch turned on to make those powers run constantly (or perhaps a basic protection part of the molecule has been irreversibly removed). I think that when you forge a Legendary Mask, constant power operation runs along all the connection lines between molecules, and normally not along the extra ports on the surface. Cracking a connection in that kind of mask would thus make active power generation point out of exposed ports, causing a "leak" effect. And Vakama's welding trick would re-fuse those connections, sealing the "leak". (They would also have no blocked ports at all, being of the highest purity, so could generate the most powerful effects from the surface when mentally commanded to do so.) This, again, works regardless of whether my cyberclay theory about the design of the molecule is true. (The programming could be stored physically in moving parts of the molecule, or only electronically as data within charged or uncharged parts of the molecule. Lately I'm leaning towards something that uses both, because our own cells use both physical design and electric charge to function.)

I agree with the part about protodermis molecules "connecting" together when cooled to determine the power of the mask (that nicely explains why Matoran can combine two Kanoka disks and get a different powered Mask out of the mix). But I think that a cracked mask would always leak - that's why cracked masks are useless, because all the power of the mask leeches out of the crack. For a Great or Noble mask, this energy wouldn't affect the environment that much - a little Shielding energy leaking out is probably not going to do much to the surrounding area. If you have the Fundamental Force of Time Itself leaking out, however, that is going to affect the surrounding environment. That's my theory.

Well, if you throw one at a wall, it will tend to just bounce off, not shatter, is my point. Yet they are flimsy enough that if you stomp on one you'll probably break it, as seen with Kanohi. It seems you're agreeing with me.

Admittedly, like I mentioned, this analogy breaks down because Kanoka are not hollow underneath like frisbees. Even so, both Kanoka and frisbees don't shatter when they impact their targets, and they have to impact at a high speed because that's what triggers the power. Try doing that with most metals and you're more likely to either decapitate someone, or the metal will just warp out of shape. Plastic, by contrast, will bend just enough to bounce off relatively safely but will snap back into its normal shape immediately.

Depending on the plastic, of course.

And there are other molecular materials that are similar, I'm saying "plastic" just as the most obvious choice. I was also thinking maybe Kevlar. (Not really sure what Kevlar is or isn't though lol.)

But I think that a cracked mask would always leak - that's why cracked masks are useless, because all the power of the mask leeches out of the crack.

Well, it probably does, but there's clearly some kind of difference between Legendary powers and other powers. When you destroy a Hau, Shielding power doesn't blast out around it. Not even in the slightest. It just stops working. But destroy a Legendary mask and its power is radiated powerfully in all directions. Implying to me that Legendary powers have the effect always being generated and they're just "contained". Smashing it breaks the containment. The difference is apparently not just one of degree of energy (although Legendary powers do have more energy).

Otherwise, wouldn't that mean a destroyed Hau would generate at least a tiny bubble of energy? What about a Mask of Fire? Would it erupt in a fireball, albeit a much smaller one than if it was Legendary? I don't think so.

Well, if you throw one at a wall, it will tend to just bounce off, not shatter, is my point. Yet they are flimsy enough that if you stomp on one you'll probably break it, as seen with Kanohi. It seems you're agreeing with me.

I am.

And there are other molecular materials that are similar, I'm saying "plastic" just as the most obvious choice. I was also thinking maybe Kevlar. (Not really sure what Kevlar is or isn't though lol.)

But I think that a cracked mask would always leak - that's why cracked masks are useless, because all the power of the mask leeches out of the crack.

Well, it probably does, but there's clearly some kind of difference between Legendary powers and other powers. When you destroy a Hau, Shielding power doesn't blast out around it. Not even in the slightest. It just stops working. But destroy a Legendary mask and its power is radiated powerfully in all directions. Implying to me that Legendary powers have the effect always being generated and they're just "contained". Smashing it breaks the containment. The difference is apparently not just one of degree of energy (although Legendary powers do have more energy). Otherwise, wouldn't that mean a destroyed Hau would generate at least a tiny bubble of energy? What about a Mask of Fire? Would it erupt in a fireball, albeit a much smaller one than if it was Legendary? I don't think so.

Okay, I'm really confused here. You seem to agree with me that energy leaks out of Great or Noble broken masks. However, you seem to dispute the fact that energy leaks out of Great or Noble masks that are broken, and that energy manifests itself in the normal power of the mask. You also seem to have assumed that if energy leaked out of Great or Noble broken masks, that energy would manifest itself in the power of said mask, which is the what Legendary masks do when broken. You then found that final conclusion to be fallacious, because that's not what happens when a Great or Noble mask breaks.If I am wrong about any of the above, please correct me now. :)But I don't think that the power of the Great or Noble mask manifests itself when it is broken. I just think the energy leaks out. After all, Toa can use raw EE without it becoming their element (like to make a protocage), so I don't think the raw energy leaking out of a Great or Noble mask would automatically become a shield or a fireball. It would just be entropy.And I think the reason why the energy leaking out of a Legendary mask does manifest itself as it's power is because of the type of energy that's leaking, and the immense power that energy has over a fundamental aspect of the environment.(Unlike, say, shielding or fire, which is controlled by the user.)Where I disagree (as it appears to me) is with your theory that Legendary masks have this constant generation of energy inside them, because that doesn't seem to make any sense. (If the masks kept increasing in energy, wouldn't the things eventually explode? ) I also don't understand why they have to be different to leak energy, when the explanation I gave above seems to make sense (but of course, I made it, so I would get it ).

Well, if you throw one at a wall, it will tend to just bounce off, not shatter, is my point. Yet they are flimsy enough that if you stomp on one you'll probably break it, as seen with Kanohi. It seems you're agreeing with me.

Actually, I thrown one at a brick wall before, not too hard, and now there's a big crack in it. Kanohi are different from Frisbees, as the Great and Noble ones have energy in them to keep it from shattering easily, unlike Frisbees, because they are obviously made from different material. Like compare solid protodermis to slightly flexible plastic, and the latter is much weaker.

Well, if you throw one at a wall, it will tend to just bounce off, not shatter, is my point. Yet they are flimsy enough that if you stomp on one you'll probably break it, as seen with Kanohi. It seems you're agreeing with me.

Actually, I thrown one at a brick wall before, not too hard, and now there's a big crack in it. Kanohi are different from Frisbees, as the Great and Noble ones have energy in them to keep it from shattering easily, unlike Frisbees, because they are obviously made from different material. Like compare solid protodermis to slightly flexible plastic, and the latter is much weaker.

I still think it works like this

Great and noble have energy flowing through the surface and when scratched it does not flow because of the broken connection

legendary are so powerfull that not only do they have energy flowing on the outside but also on the insde ( thets what i guess makes them more powerfull) so when it cracks, the power leaks out rather than stop working

But I don't think that the power of the Great or Noble mask manifests itself when it is broken. I just think the energy leaks out.

That's what I thought you meant, but I was trying to clumsily ask what then explains the difference between that and Legendary; why would the one power manifest and the other not? My explanation answers that, but you seem to disagree with that part of it some I'm wondering what alternatives there are. I haven't yet thought of any other than "just because".

And I think the reason why the energy leaking out of a Legendary mask does manifest itself as it's power is because of the type of energy that's leaking, and the immense power that energy has over a fundamental aspect of the environment.(Unlike, say, shielding or fire, which is controlled by the user.)

Time is fundamental to the environment, but Life and Creation aren't. They're fundamental to other protodermic powers. And other things are fundamental to the environment, yet don't "leak", like gravity, light, shadow, heat, cold, electricity, etc. So that doesn't seem to work, if I'm understanding you right.

I also have an issue with this idea even it's just because they're fundamental to other protodermic powers, although my issue may be of my own making, since I've also theorized that the eight basic Kanoka powers have "somewhat fundamental" language operators in their coding. Yet these are no different if they crack than a mixed power. (If I'm wrong about "basic operators" like that, then maybe this wouldn't be an issue, but even so, there should still be some things more basic than others.)

I agree their fundamental nature is important, but what I'm basically saying is that there is likely a programming and/or physical design reason in the protodermis molecule that a leak of those most fundamental things affects things differently than a normal power breaking (the power manifests, as you put it), rather than it being an inherent quality of the powers themselves per se. See what I mean?

And the reason I say it seems to be always being generated without mental activation is that this perfectly explains why it manifests due to a leak, but doesn't manifest out of the surface without mental activation. Likewise, it perfectly explains why breaking the mask manifests it. Otherwise, why would a crack or a break trigger a new activation event? I would think you'd have to code for it, which would seem a rather silly thing to do since it's so dangerous. It seems more like the manifestation is an unavoidable side effect of a necessary design feature like constant generation.

Incidentally, there's specific evidence for this in the case of the Ignika, which is constantly alive due to having the Legendary power of Life.

I do see where your disagreement is coming from, though; I didn't make it clear why there would be a benefit to constant (internal-only) activation. I have been writing up a fuller unified theory of protodermis that explains this more clearly. I'll try to summarize in response to this part:

Where I disagree (as it appears to me) is with your theory that Legendary masks have this constant generation of energy inside them, because that doesn't seem to make any sense.

The idea was that the constant generation by all the particles, channeled by all the particles, would enable instant and highly amplified effect to run out of the surface particles. Whereas in a normal mask (under my current theory), only the sides of the surface molecules exposed to air (on the front) and only those surface molecules would generate the powers; the others inside would only handle calculation and translation from the mental control. This would be the key difference between Legendary powers and others.

In my Paracosmos fanfics I say that any power can have a Legendary version that works like this, but in canon Bionicle there would be a programming rule that prevents it. (And also limits there to being only one such mask in existence at a time; long explanation is long so yeah. )

And I don't know how far I would take the term "manifested" literally. The Mask of Creation is not constantly creating stuff inside it. You can (again) make the case for the Ignika, but I think a "steady state" of life fits better.

I see it more as a physical power generator holding in existence a fictional energy field that can then more quickly transform things as needed to create the power. A normal power just generates its field when mentally triggered, which could take some time to build up from 0%, whereas a Legendary power, under this theory, is more like always at full potential and it's more a matter of being very cautious not to open the floodgates anywhere near 100%. So you could do a lot more powerful things immediately.

I don't mean literally "manifested" as in it's wielding its full power activation, which would be spending fuel constantly. Fuel would be at a standstill (more or less), but it would be "primed and ready to go", as it were. It would be a bit more like a car engine that is started up and the accelerator is fully pressed, but the brakes aren't released, versus normal powers having to start up the power every time.

That might seem inefficient with the car analogy but since I'm talking about something more like a computer, there's a real practical upside to it even with real computers. A computer can sometimes take more energy to start up from being totally off versus just being on standby, like my laptop which I usually just close the lid when I'm not using. A shut-down and reboot takes more time (although it has its advantages in reducing the risk of glitches, so the analogy might break down; on the other hand Legendary powers obviously have serious downsides too!), and can actually spend more total electricity, depending on how often you would be restarting it.

Edit: Basically I agree with toa electro's post above. It explains the leak scene and Vakama's statement about there being a difference (now, maybe one of us should check the exact quote, though).

Well, if you throw one at a wall, it will tend to just bounce off, not shatter, is my point. Yet they are flimsy enough that if you stomp on one you'll probably break it, as seen with Kanohi. It seems you're agreeing with me.

Actually, I thrown one at a brick wall before, not too hard, and now there's a big crack in it. Kanohi are different from Frisbees, as the Great and Noble ones have energy in them to keep it from shattering easily, unlike Frisbees, because they are obviously made from different material. Like compare solid protodermis to slightly flexible plastic, and the latter is much weaker.

I said this like five posts ago.

And another idea about Legendary Masks. What I'm thinking differentiates them from just a Great or Nuva mask is that the regular masks have relatively small powers that can be handled by converting energy into a physical manifestation (or reverse for things like Vultraz's mask, or upsidedown or something for a ton of other crazy masks). Things like Life, Time, and Creation require such enormous power sources that instead of having raw energy inside of the mask, it would require that specific type of energy inside of it, which would explain the Mask of Life's living qualities. While regular masks would just release their energy harmlessly, because it hasn't yet been converted into whatever it was supposed to be, Legendary Masks would release the energy inside, with it already in the correct form. So, with that in mind, it would be theoretically possible to have a Legendary Mask of Shielding or something if the energy inside was somehow converted into shielding energy prematurely, although that is probably a secret known only to beings like Artahka and the Great Beings. And, for masks like the Hau, the probably difficult process isn't worth doing for a mask that wouldn't require it, so we don't see many Legendary Masks around.

0

~

"True strength cannot be mimicked. When the time comes to make the hard decision, your strength or weakness is revealed." - Fang

"H-honor is not t-t-to b-be set aside f-f-for w-when it is needed m-most." - Root

I know you said that. I'm just paraphrasing what you said to fit my entry. And no, there can't be a Legendary Hau because the Legendary Kanohi are called that because a) they are the elements that shape the world and b) there are only 3 Legendary Masks, and staying 3 (maybe more but highly unlikely but shielding etc don't fit into that category).

Thanks bones. I think I get it now.This is the quote from Time Trap, I think:

If the mask is damaged, it shouldn't work at all. Instead, it's pouring out power like I have never seen before, and if it sustains any more damage ...

I also found this to be relevant:

The force of time is contained within that mask. Destroy it, and that power is unleashed upon the universe.

I doubt it would be accurate to say "The force of shielding is contained within that mask." about any Mask of Shielding, seeing as there are multiple masks of shielding, and sheilding can be done with things other than that mask. I guess that might lead credance to the idea that those type masks convert the user's mental energy based on whatever's in them, whereas Legendary masks have energy of themselves which can leak out...:shrugs:I still think bonesiii's explanation works, however.

Hmm so that's intesting he said it shouldn't work t all! Does that mean even legendary shouldn't work or leak?

No, it just means that Toa Vakama thought that all masks, when broken, didn't work. He observed the Vahi's damage and noticed that it was different from an ordinary mask break, which, as a mask maker, he would be familiar with.

I know you said that. I'm just paraphrasing what you said to fit my entry. And no, there can't be a Legendary Hau because the Legendary Kanohi are called that because a) they are the elements that shape the world and b) there are only 3 Legendary Masks, and staying 3 (maybe more but highly unlikely but shielding etc don't fit into that category).

Well, as far as we know, that's right, but it's theoretically possible that's just a programming rule the Great Beings imposed. If such a rule was removed, a Legendary Mask of any power could be made. It just isn't how the Great Beings chose to design things (apparently).

Although I would say that Mata Nui (and/or Makuta, etc.) controlling a giant robot is making their powers with plenty force to be considered Legendary, like Makuta's gravity attack which would have destroyed Bara Magna. It just isn't placed into this grid of power levels since we don't think of it in comparison with Kanohi Masks and the like.

Thanks bones. I think I get it now.This is the quote from Time Trap, I think:

If the mask is damaged, it shouldn't work at all. Instead, it's pouring out power like I have never seen before, and if it sustains any more damage ...

I also found this to be relevant:

>>

The force of time is contained within that mask. Destroy it, and that power is unleashed upon the universe.

I doubt it would be accurate to say "The force of shielding is contained within that mask." about any Mask of Shielding, seeing as there are multiple masks of shielding, and sheilding can be done with things other than that mask. I guess that might lead credance to the idea that those type masks convert the user's mental energy based on whatever's in them, whereas Legendary masks have energy of themselves which can leak out... :shrugs:I still think bonesiii's explanation works, however.

Thanks for the quotes. Yeah, that's what I thought he said basically. Wasn't actually sure it was clear as that, heh.

Hmm so that's intesting he said it shouldn't work t all! Does that mean even legendary shouldn't work or leak?

Yes, the energy is only forced out by the user's concentration. And they don't have a mouthpiece. The Kanohi and the heads have small magnetic fields, so that's how the mask stays on the wearer.

. Whaaaaaat? There should at least be a point where it has a solid contact

1) It just means Vakama had never had an opportunity to find out that a cracked Legendary Mask works differently.

2) There's probably much more contact, actually. The one place that they don't canonically connect is in the mouth. As seen in the movie forms. That would be pretty awkward.

More likely the whole face is magnetic, and the masks stick to it wherever they happen to touch. It would be different for each mask because they have gaps and stuff in different places depending on the mask. Also, recall when Takua's Pakari tilted sideways, but still stayed magnetically stuck to his face, showing that there's not just little points of contact but the whole face can stick to the masks.

I think that crack in MoL was more of a sign of the poison existing inside the mask. It healed when Gali cured the poison.

How come I didn't notice this before? It wasn't just a sign of poison, it was where the Lehrak scratched it with its staff, and poison leaked in there from the staff, and with Gali's healing thing the mask repaired.

Odd, I was under the impression Gali had blasted him also by accident, causing a scratch. I figured it only got infected by being an open wound within the close vicinity of a Lehrak.

I think that crack in MoL was more of a sign of the poison existing inside the mask. It healed when Gali cured the poison.

How come I didn't notice this before? It wasn't just a sign of poison, it was where the Lehrak scratched it with its staff, and poison leaked in there from the staff, and with Gali's healing thing the mask repaired.

Odd, I was under the impression Gali had blasted him also by accident, causing a scratch. I figured it only got infected by being an open wound within the close vicinity of a Lehrak.

Uh, what?

I personally thought it was pretty clear that Tahu's mask was scratched (and poisoned) when fighting Lehrak, then later Gali healed the mask and removed the poison. Gali didn't accidentally hit him at any point during (or before) that fight, if I remember correctly.

Also, I'm not sure if a blast of water aimed at a Rahkshi but accidentally hitting Tahu would crack his mask- all the Nuva had sustained much worse wear than a simple water blast.

Tahu gains the poisoned scratch in the short tumble that occurs when Gali blasts him and Lehrak with her water. He had just flipped it over so that he was pushing it down, but his mask was still whole. A second later, Gali apologizes specifically about the mask, but I think it's unlikely that it was the water that did it.

The masks seemed a bit more organic in the movie than what I'd expect, but then again the Nuva masks always looked more smooth/organic/mutated than their regular counterparts.

There is a big difference beetween crack on still hot kanohi that was crafted just a moment ago and on mask that functions as somebody's face for lots of years. Also There is no way that crack would overpower mask because e.g. elemental power of the wearer would deplete.

Hello and welcome ^^
Bionicle fan and follower from Lublin in Poland. Theoretician, nerd and figure collector. The same goes for Transformers and MLP:FiM.
I'd like to be your friend my friends
My facebook: https://www.facebook...tterscotch.pl.7

Tahu gains the poisoned scratch in the short tumble that occurs when Gali blasts him and Lehrak with her water. He had just flipped it over so that he was pushing it down, but his mask was still whole. A second later, Gali apologizes specifically about the mask, but I think it's unlikely that it was the water that did it.

Right, forgot about that. Sorry Slifer3000.

There is no way that crack would overpower mask because e.g. elemental power of the wearer would deplete.

If I understand what you're saying, you think that a crack wouldn't cause the mask to be more powerful (...?) because it would deplete the user's power. Elemental power of the wearer isn't tied to their mask, though. Losing a mask can weaken them, but it doesn't drain power or anything. And a crack in the mask not causing the mask to be more powered is obvious IMO.

In my opinion, the material strength should be comparable to the typical plastic frisbee. We throw frisbees at things and they bounce off intact all the time, but if you stomp on one, it can shatter.

For truth, I always thought that Kanoka bounced off of hard things, not because they are flexible or anything, but because they were launched or thrown with incredible velocity, thus supporting the earlier mention of added biomechanics strength, and the idea that Kanoka are not only brittle, but that they are also quite strong.

EDIT: Oops, didn't post the right part of that quote. Well it was in that quote, so you probably get what I mean.

They might not look sharp, but I think they are sharper than they look, and only scratched a bit (like a scratch on a car with a rock), then turned green when the poison went in there, then infected Tahu.

They might not look sharp, but I think they are sharper than they look, and only scratched a bit (like a scratch on a car with a rock), then turned green when the poison went in there, then infected Tahu.

I noticed that when he poisoned Ta-Koro, the tips of the staff seemed to sink down into the stone ground. It might not be a matter of physical sharpness but of the poison weakening solid material, something like an acid. That stone is nonbiological and yet the poison succeeded in making it susceptible to the lava and destroying the village. So a physical scratch effect could result due to both the poison and the tip passing along, theoretically.

How strong is the Toa Nuva's healing powers? Because in MoL, Gali, Lewa, and Kopaka healed Tahu along with the scratch. If what bonesiii said is true, then the powers must be quite strong to fix a "melted" part of a mask. The again, the Toa Metru healed a near dead Ash bear.

And another idea about Legendary Masks. What I'm thinking differentiates them from just a Great or Nuva mask is that the regular masks have relatively small powers that can be handled by converting energy into a physical manifestation (or reverse for things like Vultraz's mask, or upsidedown or something for a ton of other crazy masks). Things like Life, Time, and Creation require such enormous power sources that instead of having raw energy inside of the mask, it would require that specific type of energy inside of it, which would explain the Mask of Life's living qualities. While regular masks would just release their energy harmlessly, because it hasn't yet been converted into whatever it was supposed to be, Legendary Masks would release the energy inside, with it already in the correct form. So, with that in mind, it would be theoretically possible to have a Legendary Mask of Shielding or something if the energy inside was somehow converted into shielding energy prematurely, although that is probably a secret known only to beings like Artahka and the Great Beings. And, for masks like the Hau, the probably difficult process isn't worth doing for a mask that wouldn't require it, so we don't see many Legendary Masks around.

It is confirmed that you can make level-nine disks for any mask power, and they would be just as difficult to control as a Legendary mask. However, unlike legendary masks they don't contain fundamental forces of the universe, so nothing would leak out. Keep in mind that each Great Disk had a regular power, so theoretically there could have been six Legendary-level Kanohi with the powers of Enlarging, Regenerating, Weakening, Freezing, Teleporting, and Reconstituting at Random.

As for creating them, Artakha is the only person to have ever made level-nine disks, and he likely did that with the help of the Mask of Creation. Unless he chooses to reveal how to make them (unlikely considering the steep learning curve for using a Legendary mask), no more will probably ever be made.