An easy way to challenge theists ?? - Think Atheist2015-03-04T00:50:31Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/an-easy-way-to-challenge?commentId=1982180%3AComment%3A1203959&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks Wesley - I have found…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12054152012-11-06T20:47:48.799ZReg The Fronkey Farmerhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/RegPerry
<p>Thanks Wesley - I have found that many Theists will utter things like "well at least they have Faith in a god" when talking about other religions. They see (blind) faith as a virtue even if the other party believes in a differnet god. It does not matter that it is the "wrong" god or maybe a false one.They still elevate this to a higher position than Atheism and consider them to be more moral than us godless fiends!!</p>
<p>Thanks Wesley - I have found that many Theists will utter things like "well at least they have Faith in a god" when talking about other religions. They see (blind) faith as a virtue even if the other party believes in a differnet god. It does not matter that it is the "wrong" god or maybe a false one.They still elevate this to a higher position than Atheism and consider them to be more moral than us godless fiends!!</p> That's a great idea... I a…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-04:1982180:Comment:12039592012-11-04T18:15:19.042ZWesleyhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/WesSherman
<p>That's a great idea... I also like to just throw this question out there. "If you really believe in a god....would you be willing to change religions in order to worship him?: I think it might be better if you turn the question around and ask.... "What would it take for you to leave your current religion and follow another?"</p>
<p>I've found that most folks don't want to even consider the possibility that their beliefs might be wrong. They also have a hard time coming up with…</p>
<p>That's a great idea... I also like to just throw this question out there. "If you really believe in a god....would you be willing to change religions in order to worship him?: I think it might be better if you turn the question around and ask.... "What would it take for you to leave your current religion and follow another?"</p>
<p>I've found that most folks don't want to even consider the possibility that their beliefs might be wrong. They also have a hard time coming up with anything that would sway them.</p>
<p>I like to ask it because its not a question of whether to believe in god or not... its a question that asks if they are willing to believe in god at all costs...even if it means leaving their current religion and adopting a new one.</p> That does appear to be a very…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-05-11:1982180:Comment:11205702012-05-11T11:29:38.444ZAtheist Exilehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/AtheistExile
<p>That does appear to be a very effective technique. The problem with it is, I wouldn't get to hear the sound of my own voice very much! :-)</p>
<p>That does appear to be a very effective technique. The problem with it is, I wouldn't get to hear the sound of my own voice very much! :-)</p> I am definitely trying this t…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-02-01:1982180:Comment:10420502012-02-01T13:22:54.476ZSean O' Byrnehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SeanOByrne
<p>I am definitely trying this to see if I can get some sense into my family! Great idea man! </p>
<p>I am definitely trying this to see if I can get some sense into my family! Great idea man! </p> I became a Pastafarian minist…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-02-01:1982180:Comment:10420372012-02-01T11:48:15.093ZCitizen Atheisthttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/CitizenAtheist
<p>I became a Pastafarian minister in order to start arguments. It works very well. The theist asks "Pastafarian, what's that?" I explain the basic belief system (pirates, fsm, etc.) and then embellish it enough to make them have a confused expression. I say it with a very sincere look and solemn tone so they'll really begin to question me.</p>
<p>They usually express how silly my beliefs are. I ask why, just to bait them. Once they tell me why, I ask how my beliefs are different in the…</p>
<p>I became a Pastafarian minister in order to start arguments. It works very well. The theist asks "Pastafarian, what's that?" I explain the basic belief system (pirates, fsm, etc.) and then embellish it enough to make them have a confused expression. I say it with a very sincere look and solemn tone so they'll really begin to question me.</p>
<p>They usually express how silly my beliefs are. I ask why, just to bait them. Once they tell me why, I ask how my beliefs are different in the level of unprovability or silliness that theirs. I'm usually rewarded with silence. &gt;=) </p> No worries at all about the l…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-26:1982180:Comment:6794362011-05-26T23:32:45.650ZChudihttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/046rdms2txeeq
No worries at all about the length, I tend to be long-winded too, so it's all good; it's exactly what I needed to hear. I think it's just a bit of exasperation on my part since it seems so mind-numbingly obvious that there is no theistic god, and yet she clings to the notion of it; I think it's a manifestation of her trying to exert control on her life but failing, and then having to reconcile that failure with a god that loves her, comforts her, and is perpetually positive. Actually I think…
No worries at all about the length, I tend to be long-winded too, so it's all good; it's exactly what I needed to hear. I think it's just a bit of exasperation on my part since it seems so mind-numbingly obvious that there is no theistic god, and yet she clings to the notion of it; I think it's a manifestation of her trying to exert control on her life but failing, and then having to reconcile that failure with a god that loves her, comforts her, and is perpetually positive. Actually I think that's true for a lot of people who are doubters but still maintain this supposed one-to-one connection.<br />
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Anyway, thanks very much. Just got this book recommende…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-26:1982180:Comment:6792952011-05-26T21:55:05.440ZReg The Fronkey Farmerhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/RegPerry
Just got this <a target="_blank" href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805091254/?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=wwwsamharriso-20&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0805091254">book</a> recommended from Sam Harris site.
Just got this <a target="_blank" href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805091254/?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=wwwsamharriso-20&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0805091254">book</a> recommended from Sam Harris site. @Chudi – When someone asserts…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-26:1982180:Comment:6792622011-05-26T20:57:30.248ZReg The Fronkey Farmerhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/RegPerry
<p>@Chudi – When someone asserts that they “have a personal relationship with God (Jesus)” what they are doing is expressing their own subjective belief. They are giving their positive assent to the proposition that “God exists” and informing others that this is the case. It may appear as the “Truth” to them but it is still just their opinion. For this belief to have any credibility and to be deemed a Fact it must move from the subjective (in her head only) to the objective (tangible or…</p>
<p>@Chudi – When someone asserts that they “have a personal relationship with God (Jesus)” what they are doing is expressing their own subjective belief. They are giving their positive assent to the proposition that “God exists” and informing others that this is the case. It may appear as the “Truth” to them but it is still just their opinion. For this belief to have any credibility and to be deemed a Fact it must move from the subjective (in her head only) to the objective (tangible or testable by others).</p>
<p><br/>For it to become a fact it need to be justifiable. Saying “I believe it” to be the truth is not justification. It can only pass this process of justification by having Evidence for it evaluated. If the evidence is studied and the premise of the proposition can be verified by repetition then it can be accepted as Knowledge and be deemed to be a fact. <br/><br/>I would suggest that the main qualifier as to whether the proposition is a Fact is that it can exist independently outside of the subjective thoughts of the her mind or any knowledge claims that she might make about it. <br/><br/>It is normal to hear the words “my Faith is not a blind faith but a reasoned one”. So on what basis is it a reasoned one? What did it for her? What evidence was used to validate it? It is worth pointing out that most Theists consider Arguments and Appeals (there must be a god) to be Evidence. Ask her to consider the court case scenario where a man is on trial for murder. “Your Honor, we believe he is guilty of murder for he threatened the victim that morning”. “Sorry but that is not Evidence, case dismissed”. So, like all believers, her faith is rationalized rather than reasoned because there simply is no Evidence to support the proposition. None. Keep patiently asking her for some. This creates more Doubt as she will be compelled to think about it. <br/>Ask why she does not believe in Allah. The reasons given can be used to argue against other gods. If she claims to be able to speak to God on a one to one basis ask her what gods voice sounds like.</p>
<p><br/>I think the best way to handle the mind-set is to be gentle and patient. Ask questions rather that make your own assertions. We are not Atheists because of Science or the Theory of Evolution or the Big Bang. We are Atheists because we do not believe in gods because there is no evidence. I have “saved” a few people over the last 25 years but the victory (if that’s the right word) is never mine but theirs. That is because people must see the light for themselves. To meet someone after they become an Atheist and see that flash of intelligence rather than the blank look of confusion is always sweet. So I hope that helps a little. Sorry I do go on a bit…..</p> I think the best thing is to…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-26:1982180:Comment:6792612011-05-26T20:53:16.273Zluvtheheavenhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/luvtheheaven
I think the best thing is to ask what exactly she means by "conversation". To make it clear that you don't think she's stupid, but that you think human psychology is a powerful thing, and we feel things strongly. Our minds can also trick us, point out optical illusions as a good example. Or even hallucinations on a grander scale. Point out how sure a little kid can be that Santa exists, and how easy it is to "play pretend" with an imaginary friend or a doll or action figure. Point out how…
I think the best thing is to ask what exactly she means by "conversation". To make it clear that you don't think she's stupid, but that you think human psychology is a powerful thing, and we feel things strongly. Our minds can also trick us, point out optical illusions as a good example. Or even hallucinations on a grander scale. Point out how sure a little kid can be that Santa exists, and how easy it is to "play pretend" with an imaginary friend or a doll or action figure. Point out how writing in a Diary is cathartic and useful for a lot of people, and talking to a grave of a loved one or a brain dead person or even a person in a coma can feel like you're really talking to a person who should be able to hear you on some level, but when that person from the coma wakes up, they didn't hear you, and when you're talking to a gravestone, notice how no one responds. Point out that if she's having a conversation with God, why is his half of the conversation so vague, mysterious, and only conveyed via "feelings" when human forms of communication that we can really understand involve language usually, maybe a clear and distinct picture or something. If God really was talking back to you, wouldn't he "say" something? Make it clear that signs are usually vague enough that they can apply in any/all situations, and show her how horoscopes work. XD Ask her when exactly she feels that personal connection with God, and tell her exactly how you feel and what you do as an atheist in that same situation, and explain how you still have all the same emotions and wishes and desires but you know it's all just in your head. A quick question. I've been d…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-26:1982180:Comment:6790802011-05-26T17:18:52.509ZChudihttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/046rdms2txeeq
A quick question. I've been debating a friend of mine for about 2 years now, and I've made some dents in her belief. I've gotten her to acknowledge that the bible is full of logical fallacies and that it's not the best arbiter of truth/justice/peace, etc. But what she's countered with lately is her personal connection to god, that she needs no validation or impetus from the bible or any of its teachings to have a one-on-one conversation with god. Any ideas on how to tackle that sort of mindset?
A quick question. I've been debating a friend of mine for about 2 years now, and I've made some dents in her belief. I've gotten her to acknowledge that the bible is full of logical fallacies and that it's not the best arbiter of truth/justice/peace, etc. But what she's countered with lately is her personal connection to god, that she needs no validation or impetus from the bible or any of its teachings to have a one-on-one conversation with god. Any ideas on how to tackle that sort of mindset?