It makes sense, in the narrative of the film, that Luke would wonder what his life could have been like... given that he thinks his time as a Jedi has been for nought. I still don’t think it jives with Luke’s (or a Jedi’s) character though. He just gave up... and looks to be half the Jedi that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ahsoka and the dude from Rebels were... (who were willing to fight on regardless of their personal losses).

Normally, I'd be rushing out to buy this and swallow it all up, but at the moment there's nothing that could convince me, to buy that book. The Last Jedi has killed my enthusiasm for any new Star Wars films and books going forward.

Me thinks certain posters posture as jaded and disenchanted but really can't stop guzzling from the almighty Star Wars teat. But that's not a fresh observation. Anyway, I don't mean to derail the thread.

... and looks to be half the Jedi that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ahsoka and the dude from Rebels were... (who were willing to fight on regardless of their personal losses).

Yeah, I hear ya...

...oh, remember that time Obi-wan and Yoda went into exile?

Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile to live, not die. They were being hunted by the Empire. Obi-Wan was keeping an eye on Luke and probably always planned to take him to Yoda even if he hadn't died. Sure, Yoda got a bit crotchety in his old(er) age but he ultimately trained Luke, not just tickled his hand with a branch.

Since they're not using George Lucas' stories Disney's Star Wars movies are literally just big-budget fan-films with a bad and often nonsensical story. Virtually every second of The Last Jedi had something wrong with it. Although personally I didn't really mind the beginning joke, although it should have been with Adrian Edmondson's character instead of General Hux considering Adrian Edmondson is a comedian! (I know Poe was doing the joke, but it would have been more appropriately funny with Adrian Edmondson doing the reactions.) It's a bit weird having General Hux being a goofy character, rather than a more serious Tarkin or Jerjerrod-type character. He's more like a parody of a Star Wars villain.

... and looks to be half the Jedi that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ahsoka and the dude from Rebels were... (who were willing to fight on regardless of their personal losses).

Yeah, I hear ya...

...oh, remember that time Obi-wan and Yoda went into exile?

I agree with Corellianrogue. With all due respect CoGro, I’d recommend watching the older films again. Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile specifically to bide their time, watch over Luke, and keep the flame alive. Lucas was explicit in that statement. What Luke was doing in TFA/TLJ was diametrically opposed to keeping the flame lit and fighting on. He gave up and wanted the Jedi to end. That was NOT what Yoda and Obi-Wan sort in their exile. Not even close... “pass on what you have learned”.

You believe that his wanting the Jedi to end was "cowardly," when that's really just you taking on the baggage of two dead Jedi, who were shown (by George) to be part of a flawed dogmatic order, who were also shown (by George) to be wrong in how Luke should deal with Vader, and who are as responsible for the fall of the Jedi order as Sidious. They also both lied to Luke about his family, by the way.

So I ask you: if you're Luke, what do you owe to these two flawed wizards? He tried their way and it blew up in his face (just as it did for the Jedi Order in the PT). So he scoured the galaxy to learn more about the history of the Jedi and he discovered what we, the audience, learned in the PT: that they were a bunch of bureaucratic fuck ups. Remember that time Qui-Got didn't want to free slaves because it was "off mission"? Great guardians of peace and justice, amiright?

Luke is allowed to evaluate the Jedi on his own, and he determined that they aren't worthy guardians of the light side. After seeing their depiction in the PT: I agree. Not to mention, according to Yoda's teaching the Jedi path isn't about taking a heroic path. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence," right? Doesn't Luke do both of those in TLJ? I'd argue that his Force projection confrontation with Kylo is the MOST Jedi-like act, based on Yoda's teaching, of any Jedi in the entire saga.

You can disagree with the direction of the character all you want, but don't try and make people feel "wrong" for appreciating a different, albeit challenging, interpretation of a story. If you didn't like the direction of the movie, which has plenty of arguable justification, that's fine but stop trying to make me, or anyone else here, feel like we don't know the canon just because you disagree. Otherwise, this place is not going to be very much fun.

I must have missed the part in one of the movies where either Obi-Wan or Yoda said "If your nephew ever meets an evil guy who has influence over him and you sense he's starting to turn to the dark side then you should probably at least think about killing him in his sleep."

Been reading this the past days and thought of counter-arguing but feel lazy to enter this rabbit hole, and even though some things could definitely be added, that last message from cogro basically says all that needed to be said.Overall, and i'll say this all the more because i left very unsatisfied on first viewing before collecting my thoughts- then watch it again, I haven't read a single nerd criticism trying to explain how TLJ corrupts contradicts etc all Star Wars that get any close to how I personally feel, and how others have articulated (Bryan Young's take on Luke or "mary sue" Rey among examples): that this film is solid with some actually very well thought out elements that touches on the essence of Star Wars.

ps complaining about Hux? Come on, the only way to stand him and that ridiculous speech in TFA was to take it with humor, at least now it's clear he's just a joke... and many imperials were anyway in the OT

You believe that his wanting the Jedi to end was "cowardly," when that's really just you taking on the baggage of two dead Jedi, who were shown (by George) to be part of a flawed dogmatic order, who were also shown (by George) to be wrong in how Luke should deal with Vader, and who are as responsible for the fall of the Jedi order as Sidious. They also both lied to Luke about his family, by the way.

So I ask you: if you're Luke, what do you owe to these two flawed wizards? He tried their way and it blew up in his face (just as it did for the Jedi Order in the PT). So he scoured the galaxy to learn more about the history of the Jedi and he discovered what we, the audience, learned in the PT: that they were a bunch of bureaucratic fuck ups. Remember that time Qui-Got didn't want to free slaves because it was "off mission"? Great guardians of peace and justice, amiright?

Luke is allowed to evaluate the Jedi on his own, and he determined that they aren't worthy guardians of the light side. After seeing their depiction in the PT: I agree. Not to mention, according to Yoda's teaching the Jedi path isn't about taking a heroic path. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence," right? Doesn't Luke do both of those in TLJ? I'd argue that his Force projection confrontation with Kylo is the MOST Jedi-like act, based on Yoda's teaching, of any Jedi in the entire saga.

You can disagree with the direction of the character all you want, but don't try and make people feel "wrong" for appreciating a different, albeit challenging, interpretation of a story. If you didn't like the direction of the movie, which has plenty of arguable justification, that's fine but stop trying to make me, or anyone else here, feel like we don't know the canon just because you disagree. Otherwise, this place is not going to be very much fun.

Lucas was at pains to show that the Jedi order were plagued by beurocracy and complacency, which by default, benefited the Sith that waited in the shadows. However, the films (read Lucas) never depicted the Jedi as the antagonists. That Luke, in TLJ, believes the Jedi were as culpable as the Sith/Empire in measuring out misery to the galaxy, is an interpretation by the new writers designed purely as an act of deconstruction.... That Luke ultimately seems to not follow through on this way of thinking, only serves to underline the flakiness of the concept. Has the Jedi ceased to exist at the end of TLJ? Was Luke right to believe the Jedi to be as bad as the Sith? Clearly the answer seems to be a resounding ‘no’... it seems he was just a massive fuckup all that time between ROTJ and the last 5 mins of TLJ... where he repented.

In terms of agreeing/disagreeing... that goes both ways fella... and please don’t associate my distaste for the film with a distaste for those that like it. I have no issue with you, or others, liking the film (my critiisisms have always been aimed directly at the films and not fellow posters)... but that also does not negate my view that the sequels, particularly TLJ, are a poorly conceived, cinematically regressive cash grab. I am clearly not alone in that view...

The hate about this movie is frightening and scary in my eyes. I feel like the fandom is dividing like never before and a part of this fandom trys to destroy the stuff LFL is setting up for sheer reason of not getting what they wanted and fantaszied in their heads.

Iam afraid that SW will be go down because of its fandom sooner or later. Why should they do more and more content and getting insulted and threadend because of it in the years and releases to come?! People already waiting for SOLO to get all into hate mode again, at least thats my impression.

Its becomimg so toxic and full of anger and fighting that its becomimg a place I pull myself away from and enjoy SW for myelf.

The hate about this movie is frightening and scary in my eyes. I feel like the fandom is dividing like never before and a part of this fandom trys to destroy the stuff LFL is setting up for sheer reason of not getting what they wanted and fantaszied in their heads.

This quote perfectly applies to the toxicity of the prequel era as well. Back then, it was message boards. Today, it's social media.

It's not like we're enjoying hating this movie. I tried watching TLJ a second time and couldn't even make it halfway through before turning it off in disgust. This from someone who has watched AOTC repeatedly.

This quote perfectly applies to the toxicity of the prequel era as well. Back then, it was message boards. Today, it's social media.

Yep indeed.

I was talking to a guy over facebook who is ranting over TLJ over and over again, insulting RJ, KK and JJ. I was telling him he was doing the same things he didnt like when the prequels were released. I told him to beware to become that kind of guy which he criticised back in the prequel area. He didnt see any similarity and argued he had all right to rant because its different.

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It's not like we're enjoying hating this movie. I tried watching TLJ a second time and couldn't even make it halfway through before turning it off in disgust. This from someone who has watched AOTC repeatedly.

It's honestly heartbreaking and frustrating as hell.

There is still no need for ranting over it for 3 months over and over the internet and insulting people involded in making it or fans who like its. People act like they got personaly insulted,threadned or hurt by this film. It's ridiculous. Imagine yourself reading something about you and your work and what kind of bad person you are because of what you produced. Its not constructive in any way. Its toxic.

So yeah...

Quote:

Then get the fuck over yourself.

What Bandersnatch said.

And please stop making your point out of a quote of Mark Hamill which is taken out of context and clarified multiple times by now.

Perhaps that was a mistake . I find this movie better with each viewing (saw it six times so far). After the first one I was mostly stunned, as if by killing off Luke they killed my own father. And Leia-Supergirl shit seemed so ridiculous. But I got over it, came to terms with it, understood and accepted. Today it's only the Canto Bight subplot that makes me cringe a bit (though I love Del Toro's part). TLJ is neither a bad movie nor a bad Star Wars movie. Doesn't beat ESB but eats AOTC for breakfast (and I happen to like prequels). Oh, and one more thing: at first, ESB was not, I repeat: was NOT universally considered a superior film to original Star Wars (ANH). Things change in time.

Upon additional viewings, the film has gone up a bit in my eyes. I respect the bold, new direction Rian Johnson took the story. Not a safe route, but perhaps a necessary one. It's not one I would have picked, but as with everything with this franchise, I dwell very little on what I would have done and just the story take me where it goes.

I also found more to like with the soundtrack. Just about all the music in Ahch-To is wonderful, and the Battle of Crait is magnificent.

I fucking hated Return of the Jedi in 1983. Like Prequel fucking hated that fucking movie in 1983.

And then I got the fuck over myself.

No true Scotsman right? Lol.

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There is still no need for ranting over it for 3 months over and over the internet and insulting people involded in making it or fans who like its. People act like they got personaly insulted,threadned or hurt by this film. It's ridiculous. Imagine yourself reading something about you and your work and what kind of bad person you are because of what you produced. Its not constructive in any way. Its toxic.

TLJ was a gleefull deconstruction of a 40 year saga that was neither wanted nor necessary, and done for the superficial purpose of "subverting expectations" as much as possible. I sometimes wonder if we watched the same movie. Given its 47% RT rating though, I'm reasonably certain I'm not just an outlier on this.

Is this thread about the novel? I absolutely loved the way it presented the force. It was a completely believable extension of how meditation works in the real world. The explanation of light/dark and how they compliment each other was superb. And the explanations of how Luke cut himself off from the force and how Leia seemingly used it for the first time were both spot-on.

For those who did not like the story, change is difficult. Many of us were not sure what to think of ESB. Darth Vader is Luke's father? No effin way! I was sure he was lying, and very very sad about it. My Star Wars had very clear good guys and bad guys. The bad guy even wears black! But then ESB and ROTJ came and muddied up the whole concept. Talk about messing with Star Wars! I hated it!

Now we are going one step further. Kylo is not all bad, Rey is not all good. In fact, they seem to need each other. There is no good without bad. Your good guys are all suspect and your bad guys are sympathetic. StarWars.com even asks "What side are you on?" implying that the dark side is a good choice ... WTF?