Discussion: courtesy runners

courtesy runners I think that this is a rule that can and sometimes is abused. In a recent tourney, I witnessed a team that used 3 courtesy runners every inning, that were not playing defense nor batting. While they used other runners also, these 3 fella's only ran. My team was on the first base side, so these guys came to our dugout at the end of their defensive inning so as to be prepared. This was within the scope of the rule. Of course they were all fast and knowledgable on the bases. The real asset they provided was fresher legs and arms ( fatigue comes in other forms also)at the plate and on defense, especially at the end of a Tourney. I commend the coach for finding guys to do this!! However, my interpretation of the intent of the rule is not to gain an advantage, but to keep players in the game longer career wise. If a player is injured, do what we can to help him play, but if he can run in the out field he should be able to run bases. We all use the rule to our advantage, myself included, to go with a faster guy in situations. I would like to see the rule be modified to read that courtesy runners come from the line up players. This would include EH. I believe this might get more batters, EH's, in the game at strategic spots, so as to run for another player. But also treat the team with 20 players equal to the team that plays 10 or 11 guys when we get to Sunday, where fatigue from length of service comes into play.If defensive players are running for others, a good coach will be more restrictive of runners, prefering to keep all healthy. My version might read: Courtesy runner must be someone in the active line up, including all defensive players that have have been removed from the game. I realise that a shifty coach will figure out a way around it. Any one else?

curty-we carry as many as 20 guys to tournaments. We run for a lot of our players. However, all of our players are in the games, too. We rotate every game. We bat 12-13 every game. The guys volunteer to run because it keeps them in the games when they are not playing defense. A couple of them just love to run, but we do not have anyone that ONLY runs. Even in championship games, our coach makes wholesale changes defensively in the 4th or 5th inning. We've worked out a successful system to keep 20 guys playing and being part of the team. Several are either just off a major surgery like knee surgery, or are headed there with it only being a matter of time, and trying to limit running to put it off. I will be out for over a year when it finally becomes too painful to play, and that day is getting close. The CR rule as written helps us put it off.
Gary-even you would make the choice to be run for if it might help you put off a major knee surgery for another year, or help you extend your career another year. And several of our guys are literally at that point. COPD is another reason we run for one guy. He can barely make it to first without his breather. I think that without the CR runner and a bunch of guys that work together with it, we don't exist as a team. I how many other teams or players use the CR for these reasons.
If you feel the game is impure because of this, then maybe limit the CR's in the super competitive divisions-major and major plus. But, I am betting that a lot of guys that cannot physically do what they could when younger are play AA or AAA with their friends more for the comaraderie. By changing the CR rule, you may take a huge batch of players or teams out of the mix. I don't think SSUSA wants to do that.

I believe that CR's should be limited in Major and Major+ divisions, as these are supposed to be the elite players, and if you can't run, are you really an elite player?
Let the lower divisions have as many as they want.

Mark, that is not the point at all. THAT is exactly why there is the rule, but NOT for the rabbits who just run because they are .1 of a second faster. You would still get runners for those guys who might really need it, just make it be the last out. How can I make this any clearer?

The question is not who should be run for, but rather who should be doing the running. And is should NOT be rabbits. Why should it?

Now we need to classify 'rabbits' by speed. So a certain guy cannot run in a situation because he is classified a rabbit? When will these timings be held and at what point does a person become a rabbit? Is he a rabbit if he gets from first to third quickly, or home to second, or all the way around in 13 seconds? Is he a rabbit if he is appreciably faster than the guy he is running for? With your rule SSUSA now needs a whole new set of guidelines. And you would also have to classify who is really in a position to 'need' a runner. Is that arbitrary or based on physical problems? At what point does a person suddenly 'need' to be run for? Is SSUSA now going to have to classify people as 'deserving' of a runner? Another set of guidelines. I'm sure they have time to implement all of these new classifications. Right, Dave?
I challenge you to write the rule for this, Gary. How are you going to word it? What do you tell the umpires who have to enforce it? What are the penalties for 'illegally fast CR's'? Or running for a player that is non-deserving of a runner? Is CR abuse grounds for a forfeit? Suspension?

The idea (I thought this was pretty obvious) is not to eliminate guys with speed, but to eliminate bogus use of the "courtesy" runner rule. When a team can only use the last out, they will be MUCH less inclined to run for a healthy guy just because he is not Carl Lewis.

Easy writing of the rule. "The courtesy runner must be the last batter who made an out. Unless that player was run for previously, then the runner is the previous out." This is not at all difficult to enforce, it is how we played it for years up here when the concept was first implemented. We all understood it just fine.

Now I would like to add NO runners for outfielders, if you can cover more then 1/4 of a large outfield you certainly can run 65'. But I would take baby steps on this.

Rabbits, like beauty, is/are in the eyes of the beholder-it is all relative. A rabbit on one team may be the slowest guy on another team. So, in an effort so stop 'bogus' use of CR's (an egregious crime in the game of senior softball), you make it so a lot of players can no longer play.
So you lose us as a team-we would never get through our 'boulders'(the part of our lineup that you would clock to first base with a sundial and we have 5 of them sometimes. We actually had a play in league where one of our guys hit a base hit to left with 2 on, they threw to home to try to get the guy there, he went back to third, then they saw they still almost had a play at second so they threw there, just missing the out, threw the ball back to the pitcher, and then realized our hitter was still not at first. They got him out. Senior ball can be really slow. And I reject your CR rule for lower leagues. You are taking a lot of players that still want to try and play for reasons you might not understand, and putting them out of the game. You got no heart, Gary. If the higher competitive ones want to do it, great, but we are all getting old. I can see it at major and major plus, but not all senior softball.

How am I eliminating guys from playing? If you have a legit need, there will be a runner for you. If all you can do is run, there are Senior Olympic track meets. Have at it.

Mark, you are better that to make stuff up! Who did I remove from the game? NO one. Anyone can have a runner, who NEEDS one. But you know as well as I do that the rule is HORRIBLY abused for competitive advantage, NOT the intent AT ALL!

And face it, if a guy can cover 1/4 of a large outfield, not to mention backing up his teammates (he better be), he can run 65'.

We have 4 guys on our team that could not compete without a courtesy runner. It's all they have left to get out there sometimes, and they are part of our team and our family. Those are the guys that couldn't play if you restricted or took out courtesy runners. And I am not making it up.

How many last outs are there?
What "if" you have two or three guys back to back who are in need of courtesy runners? What then?

Gary when was the last time you played 3 or 4 games in a day, in the outfield with 300 to 325 fences? On any level. At our ages the outfield should be the first to get courtesy runners, no ?'s asked.

Getting older and our respective age groups, dictate different rules for old "Pappy" and "Grand dad". Most if not all of those who "actively" participate on the higher level of Senior Softball are happy with the rule as it is.
We arent 25 year olds with testosterone flowing from every orifice on our bodies any longer, (at least not without help from Phizer).

There are always enough. You can't possibly need more than 3 at a time.

Then you go back to the last outs, as far back as you need. Or you do some tinkering of your batting order. When this goofy rule first came around here that is how it was used, and I don't recall any issues.

In the outfield? Never. But pitching 5 in a day, when you back up 8-10 feet after EVERY pitch, and chip in covering first and second, can be tiring too. I understand that. That's why it is called a sport, and not a board game or a computer game.

Not to mention waaaaaay too often a runner is used just because he is faster than the batter. NO other reason, and that is garbage.

Again, use runners if you want but nothing wrong with making it the last out. Old/injured/tired guys get runners, and the coach does not get to rig who does the running. Why is that so offensive?

E4/E6, your comments about playing 3 or 4 games in the outfield hit home. Unfortunately, the teams I play on still use the outfielders as primary courtesy runners, so we are WORN OUT at the end of the day. If we get in the loser's bracket, that is not good. I would prefer (and do occasionally as a pickup) to play on teams that have enough outfield depth to rotate guys around and rest guys for a while. That, to me, is a big key to success, especially in the older age groups.

Gary-when 4 or 5 of these guys are in the lineup you end up with one running for the other-and it happens too often. That's just our team, and I'll bet a few other ones out there. Even if there are only 2 in the lineup, if one was the last out and the other gets on, we might have a guy with COPD that barely made it to first and needs the inhaler and the guy with a knee the size of a balloon, but is not ready to give up the game yet because it is still one of the most important things in his life having to run for him.
Geez, Gary-if you cannot understand concessions to age and what SSUSA is trying to do to enable more guys to continue playing the game right down to the last ounce of competitiveness that is in them, then you will never get it.
One of the guys that I'm referring to on our team had the answer when I asked him about continuing to play when I knew the intense pain he was already in. He said "Mark, if I quit, I will go home, watch TV and die. I will never quit."

good response Webbie---not only am I stupid Gary but I am an outfielder that runs so much that by the championship game I am normally so cramped up that I cannot do anythingBUT I have allowed many of my teammates to enjoy going so deep into a tournament and that is what ita all about!! Praise God that I can contribute to that extent.

Mark, I have said numerous times if the last out has been run for then it moves to the second-last out, so that covers your situation.

My God, I am conceding to age, but you honestly don't see how many times this rule gets abused for no other reason than to get someone faster out there? I AM allowing for runners, but just not hand-picked rabbits.

Steve-he doesn't understand 'team' either. You do what you are asked to to help the team. You don't say 'no, I won't run". You say 'the team needs me to run'.
Any rule, law, regulation will be abused. You cannot legislate that out of it. If there is a way, it will be found. There is something in economics called opportunity cost. In other words, the choice you make to do something always has a cost, which is what you could have done if you hadn't decided to do what you did. There are many other issues on the table at the convention. I think the CR rule needs to stay the way it is and not waste too much discussion on it. Spend that time on more important issues.

If you cant run ,,,,, a div for people that can,t play at their level no more....but wont go away.....
I agree just be cause u can hit home runs dont make u a major/major plus player...U should be able to do it all at those levels......Why not limit # of courtsy runners a inning? If your injured you are injuried...Get out of the game tell u heal...

I think I have finally figured out the real reason behind all the rhetoric about courtesy runners. It isn't really about the constant putting in of faster runners, because you can only run once in an inning and in the true game situations where you need that runner in a key situation, he will be there anyway. There just aren't that many fast runners on each team. As a matter of fact, I have looked up a few times and said 'Gee, why is he running-now we have slow and slower on the bases! We have actually figured out how to keep 20 guys engaged in every game of a tournament. We don't take 20 to all tourneys. As a matter of fact it is usually only 2 or 3 tourneys that everybody makes. But we made about 12 tourneys as a team with at least 14 guys and everybody has come away happy with their playing time and the way it went. Plus, the numbers keeps us stronger for Sundays.

As I have said, I can see the CR limit for major and major plus, billcoo, because most of these guys are special athletes that can still do it all. Gary's idea works for me at that level.

The CR issue is akin to a pitcher walking a batter for any number of reasons as they do. It is part of the game.
There is abuse in either use, but who really has the right to say someone is too fast or to slow. It is also referred to as strategy.
As usually used (CR) with only being able to run once an inning or even only being able to use XXX number of CR's per inning isn't too bad. But there will always be someone not liking the rule as well as abusing it if they can get away with it.
The have always been a part as long as I can remember. About an hour ago...lol

I still wonder why we only care about guys who can't run. I am for the Courtesy Thrower for the outfielder or shortstop with great range but a spaghetti arm. Let's stop the action while he flips the ball to a CT standing next to him who can throw for him.

Why only be nice to the guys with artifical knees? How about the ones with bad rotator cuffs?

I don't think it's about ":.. why we only care about guys who can't run" I believe it is about the game and winning, with some thought about some of the players health.
Get real Gary on the matter instead of throwing in all the BS with a comment. I know some guys that play the Of with artificial legs and can run field better than many others. But not pain free.
The others you mention can have CR's also as you well know. Perhaps its time for artificial shoulders for those mentioned. The are available.
Happy Holidays

Gary 19--Its' taken me a while but I am sure all your comments are designed to be an antaqonistic accumulation of nonsensical verbage just to see what reaction you can generate. I'll bet you just sit there and crack yourself up. The beauty of all this is that from I have read you don't even play on the tour and therefore all your opinions are irrelevant. Most of us really don't know if you can really run, hit, catch, throw, slide, dive, bleed for your team when necessary and even be a CR when one of your teammates has a bad leg.

However, please keep posting your nonsense. It is sort of incomprehensible comic relief in a world that is slowly self destructing.

And so sorry you cannot see, or understand, a bigger picture. Though you mentioning that to you my comments are "incomprehensible" says all we need to know about you.

The point, which you clearly miss (perhaps due to your afore-mentioned lack of comprehension), is where do you draw a line? Why only make accommodations for guys with running-related issues? And accommodations that get horribly abused at that.

Nothing antagnostic about wanting to put some checks on the clear and rampant abuse of the CR rule. The last out runs, solves all the issues with guys who legitimately can't, and eliminates all of the abuse of the rule.

Gary19 again you neglect to see the whole picture--in an earlier thread on the CR question I gave you our batting order and the ailments which keep 5 of the first 6 batters from running -----so going to the last out once again goes to the bottom of the order which is where the "rabbits" are found!!! Why can't you get it through your head that by running for these guys it extends their "careers"
also as Gary kind of asked where do you play??

Steve, your example is just one probably pretty rare case, and exceptions shouldn't shoot down the rule. And if "rabbits" wind up running because they were the last out, so be it. At least it isn't being intentionally abused that way.

Whose career is being extended to you? The rabbits? If all they can do is run, what kind of "career" is that? If you mean the guys being run for, my idea still lets them get runners, just not-handpicked guys. So what exactly is the harm.

I like the discussion and I can see both sides.
As I said earlier the entire issue can be solved by allowing unlimited CR's in the AAA and AA, but as Major and Major+ players are supposed to be elite players, there should be some sort of limit in those divisions. As billcoo stated, being able to hit the ball over the fence does not make you an Elite player. This would also prevent teams from stacking a team with nothing but large slow guys who can do nothing BUT hit homeruns, which I fear we will see more of now that SSUSA has made the mistake of making any homerun over the limit a walk rather than an out. Why should we reward this action by letting the big slow guy who is in no way injured, that hits the homerun walk be replaced by a rabbit, which can definitely alter the outcome of a game?

If rules were last out, (which I agree with) it would, could or should change the way mgr makes their lineups. It's all about strategy, right? It will make some teams think twice about loading up the front end with the turtles. Make a rule and let the chips fall where they may. Also Steve, as an opposing player, I want everyone to enjoy a long career. But let's not make it out like the lineup can't change because they hit at the top of the order and need cr's. That was not a good example.

Gary 19 I can only speak for myself--I feel CRs extend the playing time of the handicapped---at the hotel in Raleigh my wife commented about all the handicapped parking spaces being utilized by softball players!! So I would say the CRs extend the injured, handicapped whatever you want to call them playing days

I admit I have only been looking at the CRs in one way and when I read the comments I see a different theme---lets see- 1 lets use the last out only as CR thereby taking a managers strategy out of the equation?? Ok I agree but you have to agree that intentional walks relief pitchers pinch hitters re entry etc all get removed as well since they are all part of strategy--heck who needs a manager then lets just have a rule where the names go into a hat and the umpire pulls out a name for the next hitter--no wait we don't need umpires the hitter and catcher should just call balls and strikes---haha I am just happy to be playing--it was over 40 years till I got back to playing s whatever the rules and equipment I think its great just the way it is!!!!! Have a Merry Christmas and may God Bless us all with another year of being reborn children!!

OK,here we are again.You guys know that Im stubborn and set in my ways and that I must have the last word on EVERYTHING. Its allrite for you to have an opinion as long as its what I think too.So if you respond to my post then I will be forced to repost because I MUST HAVE THE LAST AND FINAL WORD.

Gilbert got screwed by Leboob, but has not done much to help himself since then. And whining about the Chris Paul trade was really silly.

I am not on a soapbox about it, but it is really somthing much less than masculine to come on, attack from under some rock somewhere, and not have the conviction to even attempt to prove who you are. How can you defend that?

And yes, contrary to the BS said on here I have played tournaments, along with quite a bit of league.

then u have people like me that gets a hit....feels good...wants to run.......and they put in a faster runner.....dont mind if its critical run......but it happens alot when it really dont mean anything

now the people i see bitchin bout the cr's here are probably the ones that don't use the cr themselves, but for me, it's the only thing that has kept me playing this game at a high level that i enjoy playing at despite 6 knee surgery's, 4 shoulder surgery's,a heart valve replacement and 2 bulging disc's.i am thank full that i can get to first or second, and get a cr but really wish i could run for myself as i really don't feel like a COMPLETE ballplayer because i do need a runner due to all my injury's i have had, not just because he is faster. and at this age, 60, do we really have jackrabbits to begin with? you don't know how lucky you are to play this game at our age and if you haven't had injury's then you probably haven't played much ball in your career!! quit crying about the cr's, make the last out run, and enjoy this game as much as you can. life is to short...p.s..i am a infielder, play every inning, hate to come out of any game.cant wait for knee replacement this summer!

Looks like i'm not going to be a rabbit as much as my couch and others would like. Theres time in life where one can't run as much due to my ankles don't work as well. So i can still run for myself and once in while run for someone that is hurt. I'm not going to run for someone just cause i'm a little faster. Now it's if it's the championship game i'll do it if i'm up to it. After all we all want to be team players if we can.

I think that Gary 19 is correct.He's not saying that we don't need courtesy runners.What he is stating is that the CR rule is abused in its current form.I agree.

Taits:
How should three courtesy runners back to back be considered strategy?

FOFO:
"Major and Major plus don't get courtesy runners if they can't run.If they can't run are they really a elite player?"That is your statement.

I would think that anyone that doesn't have to run the bases should be considered elite.Get a hit then go sit down while "your" runner does the other half of what you went to the plate to do. Barring being injured the batter/runner should finish his time at bat.But as FOFO would have it- that's only if your playing AAA or AA .If you play Major or Major plus suck it up!

I think a lot more of us agree that the rule is abused and have witnessed it first hand.To say that it is not (abused) is simply not true.

More of you are disagreeing with the the Messenger (Gary) than the message.

ok who here was on the rules committee when this rule was made,seems to me if they made it for a hurt player it would be the last out.its not, its unlimited runners for whatever reason,most senior teams travel to tournments so anyone think maybe its a way to get the players involved when its your turn to sit.so keep up saying its abused when you have to no clue if it is.

RIK, you are right I wasn't there when this abused rule was created. But common sense sort of tells me it was named a "courtesy" runner for a reason. What, you think to be courteous to those on the bench that game?

I played with this rule in the early 90s, clearly not for seniors at that time of my life, and it was ALWAYS last out runs. So, it seems from my experiences, it got changed for some reason to allow anyone to run for anyone.

maybe someone who really knows will post on the issue,playing with the kids we use the last out its been like that for years so since you know so much tell me why ssusa did not put the last out rule in.

Hey SlOBAL, bad typing on my part. I meant Major and Major+ Shouldn't get courtesy runners or they should be limited to one per inning my point being is that those divisions are supposed to the the elite player who should be able to run for himself unless injured.
The lower divisions should be allowed more because as it has been pointed out we are all getting older and there are a lot of ailments that prevent guys from running even though they may want to. These divisions probably have more guys with medical conditions which prevent them from running.
Only problem with the CR rule is that it is abused.
I guess we will see what the rules committee comes up with. What we think really doesn't matter. Good discussion though

Again, I wasn't in the discussions and have no idea. My hunch would be that some old guys whined like old guys seem to do, so they put it in to make them happy. Probably like why the special bats got kept while EVERYONE else did away with them. Why we use mats while NO one else does. Why we have a second home plate while NO one else does.

But that is just my guess. And just because SSUSA did not put it in doesn't mean it wouldnt be the best way to do it.

No change for this year, but you have to know they are watching closely now. It seems a fairly even split here on whether to change it or not. The one idea that I don't know if it was brought up at the meeting was the major/major plus idea of restricted CR's. If they are going to change it, that would be the move to make. But, another concession to age that we ALL face, including major and major plus is that no matter what kind of shape you are in, that 6th, 7th, 8th game, or more gets really tiring, especially for outfielders who may be having a 'very active' tourney, both in the field and on the bases if they are hitting well and not hitting it out of the park. Even just getting to an outfield position and back in can be .75 of a mile PER GAME for an outfielder (280 feet X 2 per inning, x 7 innings equals 3960 feet) times 7 games is 5.25 miles in a tournament. And that's without playing an out offensively or defensively. If you happen to score twice a game running the bases at full speed (sprints-and at our age that is a relative term), that's 260 feet x 2 is 520 feet per game and 3640 feet per tourney for 7 games. Now you are at 6 miles with 3/4 of a mile with wind sprints. Add in defense-I'm tired just writing this. CR rules are ok by me.

I believe Webbie meant by the end of 7 games in the tournament - not in a day. In any event, I have done similar calculations and estimate about 1 mile per game (assuming I play LF and we are on the 1st base side). This would be a worst case scenario.

it seems this topic will not go away until Gary19 gets his way---I admit I am old and my hearing is not what it used to be but I think I heard Shepard Smith ask President Obama what he would do about the courtesy runners in Senior Softball and th ePresident replied that he inherited the situation from George Bush!!!
In reading the posts in this and the first thread on this subject it appeared that an overwhelming majority want CRs continued in the present form--so accept it and move on or find a place to play and comment that will do things your way--oh I forgot Gary did not play in 2011 so apparently he has already moved on

The simple thing to do, is if you don't like the subject matter and can't add to the thread, don't read or waste your time with it. Steve, you wasted about 15 minutes of your life typing your comments. Let it go, you'll thank me later!

In the event you have not realized it Pricer I love to stir the pot as much as Gary. In Louisville we have a park district league for seniors. there are 165 guys from 62 to 83 that play every tuesday in the summer and we play at an indoor soccer field during the winter and we liberally use CRs--guess what--all those old guys love it as it allows them to keep playing--to me that is what senior softball is all about--the optimum word here is SENIOR

Gary, all parties know when to quit on a dead issue.
We can quote what if and how did this or that work out, it doesnt mean the majority doesnt want something or isnt right.
You mentioned Nixon 72, wasnt all that bad until Watergate.

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