PAK FA, T-50: News #1

Well then, that would be classified as corruption anywhere else if interest of politicians is solely based upon by someone outside of the country. But seeing as how your leader is ruled by a woman whom is from Italy, I am not surprised.

I have a silly suspision, even if FGFA is total working awesome and spare parts came in, that the plane would still end up crashing in Indian air force, and they would still put the blame on Russia.

And no, there are indeed other countries to sell to. They will take a hit no doubt from not selling to India, but not as much as a hit as you may think.

On that note though, India banked a lot on FGFA and barely interested in the F-35 due to its shortcommings, so it will acquire FGFA, but who knows exactly the total amount that it will get. As well, sales of helicopters and other equipment very well will also go through. But it would be in Russia's best interest to start looking elsewhere, and there are indeed other countries that could acquire PAK FA (Vietnam, Iraq, Venezuela, Malaysia, Brazil, etc).

Well India is a corrupt country and corruption is like a cancer eating into our society , As an India I feel ashamed about this fact and its felt in day to day things we do.

I dont think Sonia Gandhi is a problem here , She is simply made a scape goat because she is an Italian who married to an Indian and by destiny became what she is .... Its not that before SG India had all things well and under her things went bad.

In India we have a tendency to blame some one else for our problem and we do not want to take responsibility and get that fixed , Blaming is part of our culture and mindset.

You can see that in every thing we do including our Polity.

I am not happy with SG but I think she thinks about the poor no matter how corrupt her party or she is , The Food Security Bill is something good for our country and she was instrumental in getting it done.

But lets skip this discussion for now as it does not add any value to PAK-FA thread.

FGFA/PAK FA has a lot of potential, in many countries, like in Iraq for instance, or in Venezuela and Vietnam. India said they are to get about 148(?) at first. And like GarryB mentioned, it seems India gets screwed quite a bit from foreigners like France as well, especially in costs. So far, nothing about Rafale deal either.

Let us hope that with the PAK FA, development of the spare parts will also be acquired and that India inks whatever deal ahead of time for supply of spare parts, or at least become a partner in the development of spare parts to offload issues from domestic Russian enterprises. PAK FA is barely out, and people commenting on FGFA as if they know, is kinda absurd really. And in all of that, it is a wait and see.

Austin wrote:The Indo-Russian defence relationship is such that there is a rule that Russia will not sell defence equipment to Pakistan and Pakistan does not have much money to buy either.

Austin , good points . I will make a few addendums to your's if you permit .

Actualy Pakistan does have Mi 17 helos that are being used for counter insurgency but a significant number ( along with Apaches ) are being placed on the borders with India to blast out Indian T 72 & T 90 battalions .

India does not have a right to say to Russia do not sell to Pakistan . Russia can if it wants to . The Kremlin realizes that any thing that is remotely hitech if sold to Pakistan will find it's way into China ( if not US) . That's a big deterrent to the sale of hi tech weapons to Pakistan . You are right . Pakistan does NOT have much money . But they never had that . They will get money from Saudi Arabia or UAE and thereafter make the payment .

Similarly , India does NOT have to apologize to Russia if it purchases weapons from a third party . India is not purchasing weapons to fight Russia . But China is purchasing weapons from Russia to use against India . And so is Pakistan . It makes sense to have a few wild cards up your sleeves if they are from a different vendors .

It's essential to remember that the PAK FA is not going to be a silver bullet as many in India are claiming . Maybe against Pakistan but certainly not against China . Once China starts deploying the S 400 in the Tibetan plateau whatever advantages the PAK FA or Super Sukhoi gives India will simply .... evaporate .

Moreover, China will never allow Russia or any other country to become a major supplier to Pakistan as Pakistan is it's largest customer and China loans out substantial amount to Pakistan as soft loans so that Pakistan can afford to purchase Chinese hardware.

Austin wrote:As an India I feel ashamed about this fact and its felt in day to day things we do.

You don't need to . The LIBOR scam in the UK was worth .... hold your breath $550 TRILLION .

I am not saying that be corrupt and be proud . Just that we talk about corruption the west doesn't . The entire financial crisis was an invent of the West . That's corruption 101 .

Austin wrote:The only hope for Russia besides India is China and they arnt buying much either.

For hi tech weapons that is . China has achieved a self sufficiency in most areas . Plus they have one of the world's most remarkable pool of cyber warriors who have stolen everything from W 89 blueprint to F 35s DASS operational features .

Austin wrote:I believe what ever happens atleast in the next decade some big deals are in progress or could be signed.

Also , the volume of military trade is so huge that even if you and I are to carry on this discussion 50 years from now Russia would still remain a major player in India . According to figures provided on the Russian president’s official website kremlin.ru , India accounted for 27% of Russian weapon sales in 2012-13 making it the largest importer . Between 1965 till date that has by and large been India's position ( either 1 or 2) . That being said , figures don't often tell the whole picture . PAKFA , BRAHMOS 2 , MTA will NOT be treated as a "export to India" no matter into how many billions these figures run .

Yes . Interesting that no one asks the question why did Russia approach India for these projects ? It was a win win situation for both countries . With defense being a priority only for Anglo Saxons there are not too many countries that would spend billions on these projects . Then there is Smerch MLRS which started local production in India . Not to forget that Big Daddy of all deals . The $45 billion nuclear deal .

I will further add that I don't know why other countries have NOT yet joined these projects . That would have had the potential to lower costs .

Austin wrote:I think where Indo Russia truly lack is trade relationship we are just $10 billion in Trade and back then during FSU days our tade numbers were $35 billion.

True . That's because some of Russia's major trading partners are those with which it has either a direct border or a land route is possible through CIS . I ' ll wager though that Russia & India are working on connecting an Iranian port to the Caucasus via a rail route .

Last edited by Sujoy on Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:46 pm; edited 6 times in total

China is good for copying. Not much else is well known. Seeing how poor their sales are for aircrafts, I do not hold much in regards to hopes for their new jets. They may LOOK 5th gen, but are they actually built 5th gen? But, I don't doubt they could try to simulate things like DASS though.

I think the biggest deal that India and Russia are getting, that isn't military related, is the apparent 18 or so Nuclear power plants that is to be built. Apparently as well, India has a license to built jet engines from Russia and co-development for receivers and access for Glonass.

But more joint-development between the two countries, as well as bi-lateral cooperation in things like investing in each other and ease of visa's (either for travel or for education wise) may be best in order to help prop up political relationship as well.

TR1 wrote:I think it may be a good idea for Russia to look at its dual investment with India in terms of military equipment. PAK FA was completely funded by Russia and India is getting off with a dual seat version, and Russia paid for most of it. If India is not happy with Russian equipment, then maybe it is best for Russia to dump the agreement, let India waste its money elsewhere, and Russia could then sell off the PAK FA and FGFA to whomever they please. India could very well trade off specific secrets of the equipment and Russia could be in trouble.

There is no twin seater so far. India wanted to buy majority two-seaters at first, but sometime later (as yours truly bravely predicted) they decided that they would get mostly (maybe even all) single seat birds. Apparently they were convinced that one pilot would be enough with system sophistication, as well as the bloody obvious advantage of similarity to RuAF airframes, and avoiding any more delays/development/testing costs (which seem to be multitudes bigger of a problem with 5th gen types than the birds before them. )

Russia will be able to sell PAK-FA to whomever it pleases in any case. India isn't going to be selling secrets on the pinnacle of its fighter force.

What is interesting to watch out for, is the extent of actual Indian participation in development. That is, will their input go solely into adapting the bird for Indian requirements and for the indigenous equipment they want in it, as well as domestic production...or will the money go into actual core plane development. And to add on to the last, will actual RuAF PAK-FA components be developed in conjunction with India? The latter would be a shift of India from a pure buyer into an actual contributor, and suffice it to say this would be a positive development for both sides.

The option is still open albeit the numbers will be reduced to 48 as of now and more importantly this is supposed to be the naval variant of the PAKFA . Once the prototypes start arriving a final decision will be made.

TR1 wrote:Apparently they were convinced that one pilot would be enough with system sophistication, as well as the bloody obvious advantage of similarity to RuAF airframes, and avoiding any more delays/development/testing costs (which seem to be multitudes bigger of a problem with 5th gen types than the birds before them. )

And , and ..... the all important stealth factor . It will reduce in case of a two seater .

TR1 wrote:will their input go solely into adapting the bird for Indian requirements and for the indigenous equipment they want in it, as well as domestic production...or will the money go into actual core plane development.

It's the latter and I am not speculating . DRDO and HAL engineers are already in Russia working in the Sukhoi plant on the PAKFA . Besides that the MoA that was signed between UAC and India's MoD clearly states that the two sides will share the development cost .

Mikhail Pogosyan said - "both Russian and Indian versions will be based not only on the same platform, but also have identical onboard systems and avionics."

TR1 wrote:will actual RuAF PAK-FA components be developed in conjunction with India?

I would LOVE to get specifics as they come out (not holding my breath, they can be secretive when they want) on component specifics. India's monetary contribution seemed too high for "only" domestic production set up. HAL is already providing some computers for Su-30SM, but this is on another scale and importance all-together.

"Mikhail Pogosyan said - "both Russian and Indian versions will be based not only on the same platform, but also have identical onboard systems and avionics."

This is excellent news for both, if Pogo isn't being vague. It raises some big questions though, since I was under the impression India would want to stick in a number of its domestic systems sometime down the line. Russia wants to have components produced within the country, as a policy. This seems to imply they will jointly develop and produce in both countries a number of subsystems.

Though he did also say : "It may happen that in future there will be some specific [national] requirements for onboard systems or additional missions, but these would be formally agreed by both customers.”

The statements are somewhat contradictory, since the latter could very well account for differences in subsystems that we suspected from the start.

TR1 wrote:It raises some big questions though, since I was under the impression India would want to stick in a number of its domestic systems sometime down the line. Russia wants to have components produced within the country, as a policy. This seems to imply they will jointly develop and produce in both countries a number of subsystems.

Use the SU 30 MKI deal as a benchmark .

Su-30MKI has some Indian/Israeli avionics systems, but the baseline platform, propulsion and sensors are very much Russian ( with final assembly of the aircraft in India.) The Indian PAK FA will be to all intents the production standard of the T-50, again with some non-Russian ( read Indian / Israeli) avionics and systems . The open-architecture avionics suite will be integrated within India, meaning the source-codes will be entirely India’s proprietary data . Once the prototypes start coming from 2015 you will see exactly what I am saying now.

And all those talks of cost escalation are basically hogwash . Just that the Indian currency is falling against the Euro . Since BRIC countries have agreed in principle on currency swap among themselves maybe terms of payment can be re worked . Partly in Euro , partly in roubles.

The MKI has Israeli components partially because there were simply no Russian or Indian equivalents at the time. The bird was obviously not entering service with the RuAF at the time, and was certainly not a priority project for Russia (as far as domestic mil is concerned). Both countries have made serious progress in past 10 years, so I am hoping there won't be third party participation to any large extent. Both for reasons of narrowing supply structure, keeping all components domestic, and to be frank, security concerns.

Actualy Pakistan does have Mi 17 helos that are being used for counter insurgency but a significant number ( along with Apaches ) are being placed on the borders with India to blast out Indian T 72 & T 90 battalions .

Mi-17s as attack helos? Not really the best possible use of them, unless you mean for deploying ATGM teams behind Indian lines... but I rather suspect the Indian Air Force would make such a plan fairly costly for Pakistan.

India does not have a right to say to Russia do not sell to Pakistan . Russia can if it wants to .

Totally correct, but I think you are way off base with why they would not and do not sell high tech stuff to Pakistan. Russia has a good relationship with India and it does not want to ruin that with a few cheap sales to Pakistan.

Similarly , India does NOT have to apologize to Russia if it purchases weapons from a third party . India is not purchasing weapons to fight Russia .

No it does not, but it needs to be more clear about its purchasing criteria... it is too late when announcing the results of a competition that one product was never going to win.

But China is purchasing weapons from Russia to use against India . And so is Pakistan .

In that case Russia is also selling weapons to China that could be used against Russia. The Helos Russia has sold to Pakistan were largely in police like configuration and would not be much use in a conflict with India. Equipment sold to China is at least a generation behind the equipment they make available to India. If India ordered S-400 they would likely get all the components they wanted rather than the downgraded export models China would get. China is buying Su-35s.... India is buying PAK FAs.

If Russia did not sell to China then China would simply buy western equipment and the Russian weapons industry would get rather less income to develop all these new toys it sells.

Moreover, China will never allow Russia or any other country to become a major supplier to Pakistan as Pakistan is it's largest customer and China loans out substantial amount to Pakistan as soft loans so that Pakistan can afford to purchase Chinese hardware.

Pakistan gets money from several sources including Saudi Arabia and the US and there is no reason why Russia could not offer loans too.

I am not saying that be corrupt and be proud . Just that we talk about corruption the west doesn't . The entire financial crisis was an invent of the West . That's corruption 101 .

Where there is money and people there is corruption... no other ingredient is required.

That being said , figures don't often tell the whole picture . PAKFA , BRAHMOS 2 , MTA will NOT be treated as a "export to India" no matter into how many billions these figures run .

PAK FA is a Russian aircraft that will be greatly enhanced with work on the FFGA with India. Brahmos-II and MTA and perhaps even LTA could be very useful joint programs for both countries that are used by both countries.

Obviously Brahmos II will have export limitations on its range performance which the domestic Russian model will not, but the MTA will be replacing An-12s in Russian and Indian service and the LTA might even replace the An-26/-32/-72 light transports too.

TR1 wrote:The MKI has Israeli components partially because there were simply no Russian or Indian equivalents at the time.

Yes, only the EL/L-8222 pods . Rest is designed in house by DARE (Defence Avionics Research Establishment).

TR1 wrote: The bird was obviously not entering service with the RuAF at the time, and was certainly not a priority project for Russia (as far as domestic mil is concerned).

True . Actually if you have SU 35 for air superiority & SU 34 for ground attack you do NOT need the SU 30 SM ( SU 30 MKI) . The SU 30 MKI is an all rounder ( to borrow a cricketing term ) . It gives you a bang for your buck especially if you cannot afford to have role specific aircrafts .

TR1 wrote: and to be frank, security concerns.

x2 . Stealth will go for a toss if foreign equipments are used .

Mi-17s as attack helos?

No as Helicopter gunships that complements attack helos .

No it does not, but it needs to be more clear about its purchasing criteria... it is too late when announcing the results of a competition that one product was never going to win.

The RFP is extensive . The process of acquisition starts at least 5 years after the release of an RFP . Every vendor is given all the information that they need to compete .

In that case Russia is also selling weapons to China that could be used against Russia.

Unless , China wants to shoot itself in the foot . Yesterday I was discussing with Rossiyskaya Gazeta's Delhi chief ( based in Moscow) as to why Russia is carrying out such a massive land & air military exercise in Siberia . Is this to deter a possible Chinese mis-adventure , I asked . Her reply , " just two weeks after their naval drills , really ? " .

If Russia did not sell to China then China would simply buy western equipment and the Russian weapons industry would get rather less income to develop all these new toys it sells.

China cannot purchase from the US & EU because of the trade embargo . Even purchases from Israel has it's limitations And then why purchase when you can steal .

Why does India want to invade the Tibetan plateau?

North East India is on the Tibetan plateau . What I was saying is S 400 in Tibet negates any advantage that the PAKFA gives India .

Pakistan gets money from several sources including Saudi Arabia

Who generally finance the Generals .

and the US

who finance the Pakistan Taliban

and there is no reason why Russia could not offer loans too.

Offer loans to whom . There is a saying in Pakistan that 3 A's run Pakistan - Army , Allah and America . I suspect Allah and America are a cop out , so Russia can only offer loan to the Army who in the past created the Taliban to fight USSR in Afghanistan.

PAK FA is a Russian aircraft that will be greatly enhanced with work on the FFGA with India. Brahmos-II and MTA and perhaps even LTA could be very useful joint programs for both countries that are used by both countries.

Agreed . What I am saying is that Joint Ventures are not reflected as direct exports .

Promising Russian fighter T-50 (PAK FA) will get a new system of supplying oxygen to the breathing mask pilot. According to the newspaper "Izvestia", a system developed by the Scientific and Production Enterprise "Zvezda". This equipment allows you to receive oxygen for breathing gas from the air during flight. For comparison, all standing in the Russian Air Force fighters are equipped with a limited amount of oxygen cylinders.

According to the chief specialist SPE "Star" Michael angelica, thanks to a new oxygen system at the height of the flight will no longer depend on the supply of oxygen in cylinders. In addition, the on-board system saves the payload: the mass of the new equipment is only 30 pounds, while the system of oxygen cylinders on a two hour flight weighs about 90 pounds.

Mind you, the info is coming from Izvestia, but if it is true, already a major step up from F-22 with its constant oxygen tank issue.

The RFP is extensive . The process of acquisition starts at least 5 years after the release of an RFP . Every vendor is given all the information that they need to compete .

Yet does not state that the MMRCA program is to get Rafales cheaper...

Unless , China wants to shoot itself in the foot . Yesterday I was discussing with Rossiyskaya Gazeta's Delhi chief ( based in Moscow) as to why Russia is carrying out such a massive land & air military exercise in Siberia . Is this to deter a possible Chinese mis-adventure , I asked . Her reply , " just two weeks after their naval drills , really ? " .

If you were talking about a NATO or US exercise I would certainly look for other reasons than those stated, but in the case of Russia I think they are being honest when they describe these tests as being aimed at checking out what parts of the ongoing reforms are working and what parts need further work.

When you make plans you make long, medium, and short term plans because some changes need to be done over a long period of time while others can be implimented quickly while still others need other changes before they can be made.You also need to schedule tests to check to see if the changes made have had a real difference... these tests are to ensure reforms are having the desired effect and what other changes if necessary need to be made.

Russia is a nuclear power and no more needs to run exercises to deter aggression from its neighbours than India does or for that matter China does.

China cannot purchase from the US & EU because of the trade embargo . Even purchases from Israel has it's limitations And then why purchase when you can steal .

Embargoes generally have pretty clear text that if followed can easily result in their removal... if China decided to buy 2,000 French built Rafales do you think the embargo would last very long?

North East India is on the Tibetan plateau . What I was saying is S 400 in Tibet negates any advantage that the PAKFA gives India .

Which version of S-400 will China be operating? India will never operate PAK FA... it will operate FFGA. The S-400 system that China buys might have thousands of millions of lines of code in the computer systems where even if the system could track FFGA that during an engagement one element will fail and the missile will miss. Darn, what a glitch...

BTW open conflict would be catastrophic for China as it relies on exports for its new found wealth... do you think all that western investment would continue if China attacked India?

Also there is no such think as 100% certainty... the use of good tactics can result in a conflict not being so one sided as paper might suggest.

On paper a Sheffield class destroyer should have been completely safe from Exocet missiles as its Sea Wolf missiles should have easily dealt with the problem...

so Russia can only offer loan to the Army who in the past created the Taliban to fight USSR in Afghanistan.

...and continue to fund the Taliban fighting the US and UK/NATO.

The Pakistan Army claimed to be fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan because they hated communism... how many Chinese systems do they buy now?

Mind you, the info is coming from Izvestia, but if it is true, already a major step up from F-22 with its constant oxygen tank issue.

Possibly related to the KS-129 and KS-130 unified oxygen systems with the BKDU-130 oxygen producing set. It extracts air from the engine compressor and extracts breathable air to give unlimited flight endurance for high flying aircraft. These systems are smaller and lighter than gas bottle systems and require less servicing.

They can be installed on Sukhoi, MiG, and Yakovlev aircraft.

The system has the capacity for providing a two man crew with air to breath at altitudes of up to 20km (ie MiG-31), and has a total weight of 20kgs for a single seat and 25kgs for a two seat aircraft. These systems extract about 20kgs per hour of air from the compressor stage of the engine and use on average about 50W of power.

GarryB wrote:They were not armed and had no wiring for wing mounted weapons.

That's easy in-house work . Pakistan is doing it . SriLanka did the same during their civil war.

GarryB wrote:Yet does not state that the MMRCA program is to get Rafales cheaper...

It clearly states that the Technical round will decide the best aircraft/s and thereafter the L1 ( lowest bidder) will win the contract .

GarryB wrote:Embargoes generally have pretty clear text that if followed can easily result in their removal... if China decided to buy 2,000 French built Rafales do you think the embargo would last very long?

The arms embargo was imposed in 1989 . So 24 years have passed and that's a pretty long time . In between China had tried innumerable times to get the arms embargo lifted but failed . You don't need to buy 2000 Rafales to lift the embargo a few dozen would do .

GarryB wrote:The S-400 system that China buys might have thousands of millions of lines of code in the computer systems where even if the system could track FFGA that during an engagement one element will fail and the missile will miss. Darn, what a glitch...

Didn't get this part . Why will there be a glitch ?

GarryB wrote:...and continue to fund the Taliban fighting the US and UK/NATO.

The only Taliban that remains is the Pakistani Taliban with whom the US is now talking in Qatar . They are already flush with funds as they make millions through the sale of narcotics that finds it's way in the streets of Moscow through Central Asia .

Promising Russian fighter T-50 (PAK FA) will get a new system of supplying oxygen to the breathing mask pilot. According to the newspaper "Izvestia", a system developed by the Scientific and Production Enterprise "Zvezda". This equipment allows you to receive oxygen for breathing gas from the air during flight. For comparison, all standing in the Russian Air Force fighters are equipped with a limited amount of oxygen cylinders.

According to the chief specialist SPE "Star" Michael angelica, thanks to a new oxygen system at the height of the flight will no longer depend on the supply of oxygen in cylinders. In addition, the on-board system saves the payload: the mass of the new equipment is only 30 pounds, while the system of oxygen cylinders on a two hour flight weighs about 90 pounds.

Mind you, the info is coming from Izvestia, but if it is true, already a major step up from F-22 with its constant oxygen tank issue.

That's easy in-house work . Pakistan is doing it . SriLanka did the same during their civil war.

So easy inhouse work that could be applied to any similar helo... so whether it is an Mi-17 or Blackhawk does not matter? Except there is no reason for a Blackhawk to be bought with no weapons capability...

It clearly states that the Technical round will decide the best aircraft/s and thereafter the L1 ( lowest bidder) will win the contract .

So you suggest that the French were the lowest bidders? Or that the rule were ignored for the outcome of the contract?

Didn't get this part . Why will there be a glitch ?

When it comes to software why would someone want a neighbour to have the capability to shoot down their aircraft of aircraft of their allies?

With modern satellite navigation it would be fairly trivial to put in some code that activates a minor glitch so that targets on or near Indian or Russian air space might lead to a fault missile, or the directional warhead directs the blast away from the target instead of towards it...

The only Taliban that remains is the Pakistani Taliban with whom the US is now talking in Qatar . They are already flush with funds as they make millions through the sale of narcotics that finds it's way in the streets of Moscow through Central Asia .

The Pakistani Taleban was the only Taleban that ever existed...

80% of Pakistan's military hardware comes from China .

So not much has changed... it was CIA cash that paid for the vast majority of weapons used by the Muj in Afghanistan against the Soviets and it mostly came from China with a small amount from Israeli stocks of captured Arab weapons in a pathetic attempt to make it appear that the Muj were using weapons captured from the Soviets.

Funny really... the US was able to cooperate with communist china because they perceived the problem of the communist Soviet Union was a bigger threat yet they never came to the conclusion that if they could cooperate with China why not cooperate with the Soviets and make the cold war the pointless waste of time and money it actually was. The truth is that it was never about communism... the west has hated Russia for centuries because it is a potential rival in the colonial stakes.

Now that the US has turned on Pakistan... not really very clear at the moment but after 2014 when the US no longer needs land access to Afghanistan it will likely become much more clear... Pakistan will be treated like Syria or Libya or Iran... the way the US would treat Saudi Arabia if it didn't have all that oil...

GarryB wrote:So easy inhouse work that could be applied to any similar helo... so whether it is an Mi-17 or Blackhawk does not matter?

Improvised yes . But they do exist . In India , SriLanka and Pakistan . Take a look at the pic below .

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-armed-heptrs-in-kashmir.html

GarryB wrote:So you suggest that the French were the lowest bidders? Or that the rule were ignored for the outcome of the contract?

Yes . NO

GarryB wrote:When it comes to software why would someone want a neighbour to have the capability to shoot down their aircraft of aircraft of their allies?

With modern satellite navigation it would be fairly trivial to put in some code that activates a minor glitch so that targets on or near Indian or Russian air space might lead to a fault missile, or the directional warhead directs the blast away from the target instead of towards it...

Jesus Christ GarryB . You mean Russia purposely puts in malware/ glitches in equipments sold to China ? Isn't that a preposterous suggestion . Russia's goodwill will disappear for ever if they are caught in the act and China can very easily detect it .

GarryB wrote:The Pakistani Taleban was the only Taleban that ever existed...

Yes but before 9 /11 .

GarryB wrote:So not much has changed... it was CIA cash that paid for the vast majority of weapons used by the Muj in Afghanistan against the Soviets and it mostly came from China with a small amount from Israeli stocks of captured Arab weapons in a pathetic attempt to make it appear that the Muj were using weapons captured from the Soviets.

Funny really... the US was able to cooperate with communist china because they perceived the problem of the communist Soviet Union was a bigger threat yet they never came to the conclusion that if they could cooperate with China why not cooperate with the Soviets and make the cold war the pointless waste of time and money it actually was. The truth is that it was never about communism... the west has hated Russia for centuries because it is a potential rival in the colonial stakes.

Now that the US has turned on Pakistan... not really very clear at the moment but after 2014 when the US no longer needs land access to Afghanistan it will likely become much more clear... Pakistan will be treated like Syria or Libya or Iran... the way the US would treat Saudi Arabia if it didn't have all that oil...

All True . The only change been that today the weapons are being used to kill anyone who does not fit the description of a Muslim as defined by the ISI . One has to be a Punjabi and a Sunni to be called a Muslim . All others .... Sunnis , Shias , Hindus , Christians are infidels and are getting killed regularly .

Improvised yes . But they do exist . In India , SriLanka and Pakistan . Take a look at the pic below .

So what is the problem? They could have bought any civilian medium helo and made the same modifications to add weapons to them. The fact that the Russians happened to sell them the civilian medium helicopter is largely irrelevant isn't it. It is not as if the only way they could get armed helicopters is if they bought Russian helicopters.

Yes . NO

Just after it was announced they won the competition they said they could not deliver 126 aircraft for the 10 billion bid price... which was clearly obvious. If they did have the lowest bid then it was a lie because there is no way they could sell 126 Rafales for 10 billion... double that is more realistic.

Jesus Christ GarryB . You mean Russia purposely puts in malware/ glitches in equipments sold to China ? Isn't that a preposterous suggestion . Russia's goodwill will disappear for ever if they are caught in the act and China can very easily detect it .

Are you telling me you think they don't? The US puts trojans or back doors into the chips they made and sold to the Soviet Union who used these chips in nuclear reactors. For all we know it was the US that caused the Chernobyl melt down... they certainly created the right conditions for such an accident.

At the end of the day most arms makers will take measures to ensure the arms they create are not used against them. Impossible to do with a rifle or light grenade launcher, but in a highly complex SAM system it could be as simple as designing its components so that it cannot track certain aircraft types.

Yes but before 9 /11 .

There was no new Taleban after 11/9... same guys, same support network.

It was no accident that the US assassination drones hitting the top people in the Taleban flew over Pakistan and not Afghanistan... they didn't flee to there when the US invaded... they were always there.

All True . The only change been that today the weapons are being used to kill anyone who does not fit the description of a Muslim as defined by the ISI . One has to be a Punjabi and a Sunni to be called a Muslim . All others .... Sunnis , Shias , Hindus , Christians are infidels and are getting killed regularly .

If they buy from non sunni non muslim communist china then why not from non communist Russia... especially when the equipment is much better... even the US buys Russian helicopters for use in Afghanistan because they work better than the US alternatives.

GarryB wrote: The fact that the Russians happened to sell them the civilian medium helicopter is largely irrelevant isn't it.

That's what I said initially . You wanted proof of Mi 17 being used as a gunship I have showed it to you .

GarryB wrote:Just after it was announced they won the competition they said they could not deliver 126 aircraft for the 10 billion bid price... which was clearly obvious. If they did have the lowest bid then it was a lie because there is no way they could sell 126 Rafales for 10 billion... double that is more realistic.

I am certain nothing of this nature happened . If you can share some tangible evidence to this effect I will be glad to elaborate . Price has gone up due to currency depreciation just like it has with the PAKFA . No side is at fault .

GarryB wrote:Are you telling me you think they don't? The US puts trojans or back doors into the chips they made and sold to the Soviet Union who used these chips in nuclear reactors. For all we know it was the US that caused the Chernobyl melt down... they certainly created the right conditions for such an accident.

We know about the US . You were talking about Russia purposely inserting "glitches" into the S 400 . I don't say I know everything but till date I am yet to hear about Russia being involved in such acts . And like I said , China will easily detect it .

GarryB wrote:There was no new Taleban after 11/9... same guys, same support network.

Taliban was decimated in Afghanistan after 9/11 . A few hundred how ever crossed over to the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan . The initial batch of Taliban were predominantly Sunni Pashtuns , the Pakistani Taliban comprises only Sunni Punjabis .

GarryB wrote:It was no accident that the US assassination drones hitting the top people in the Taleban flew over Pakistan and not Afghanistan...

Because the Taliban is using the North West Frontier Province(NWFP) of Pakistan to attack NATO and other countries inside Afghanistan .The Indian Embasssey was attacked earlier this month resulting in the death of 3 Indian citizens.

I think I had answered this in my earlier posts ....then can . The problem is weapons don't kill , people kill . Right now Pakistan is in the middle of a civil war encouraged in equal measures by Saudi Arabia , UAE and Iran .

American sold weapons .....americans were killed .

China sold weapons .....chinese were killed .

Russia has not sold weapons and yet ... russians were killed

http://en.rian.ru/world/20130623/181823500.html

Pakistan receives money from Saudi Arabia & UAE with which it purchases Chinese weapons . The US is no longer willing to sell arms to Pakistan because the US Govt has to subsidize it & they are no longer in a position to do so , coz of financial reasons .

RT.com wrote:The PAK-FA pilot is going to be surrounded by gold at all times as NPP Technologia enterprise in Russia’s Obninsk has developed a gold coating for the cockpit which reduces radar’s ability to detect the equipment by 250 times. The coating also protects pilot from high-energy radar pulses and solar radiation.

The coating consists not only of gold, but a combination of various metals, including stanum and indium, applied on the cockpit with a specially developed magnetron installation.

The NPP Technologia enterprise, which also produces the majority of composite elements for the Pak-FA hull, says all systems will are go to supply all future 5G jets with golden cockpits once industrial production of the aircraft starts in 2015.

Modularized electronic system

RT.com wrote:The Sukhoi T-50 fighter jet onboard information computation has been shifted from the classic multicomputer system to the Integrated Modular Avionic system, a long-anticipated change when a single processor controls many processes aboard, attributing priority level to each process and computing the most critical first, which prevents PAK-FA’s computer from freezing.

It has been an absolute precondition that the Russian 5G fighter jet will be using only domestically-produced electronic components and to achieve this objective, the Russian electronics industry was forced to undergo a revolution which ultimately proved successful.

That is why Sukhoi T-50 fighter jet pilot requires a brand-new antigravity G-suit capable of compensating up to 9G for an unprecedented 30 seconds the plane is thrust into a bone-crashing missile evasion manoeuvre.The unique G-suit, developed by the same Zvezda enterprise, allows the pilot to eject from the plane at the height of up to 23 kilometres. The onboard computer anticipates overload and avoids the delay of the system response to pressure compensation. The gravity compensation system calculates everything, from the air pressure created in the rete of flexible pipes entwisting the G-suit and supporting the pilot’s body to the 6-7 atmosphere air pumped into pilot’s lungs to compensate the external chest pressure and prevent him from blacking out.

The system developed by NPP Zvezda uses air to generate oxygen. «The system uses air tapped from the engine’s compressor to generate oxygen – the breathing gas mixture is supplied to the pilot’s oxygen mask. Now the mission duration is not limited by the onboard oxygen reserve and the pilot may perform aerial refueling several times during a single flight. As for other jets, the pilot has to monitor the amount of oxygen left, because he may run out of it even before the fuel runs out», - Chief specialist of NPP Zvezda, Mikhail Dudnik, said.

According to him, besides the unlimited amount of oxygen the system has another important advantage – it helps save the jet’s payload (weight of this onboard oxygen-generation system is about 30 kg). Mikhail Dudnik said that the system was being developed over the last five years. Four T-50 prototypes, which are being tested in Moscow Region, have been equipped with the system.