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Topic: USA Today on Egyptian Elections (Read 6862 times)

don't know. i do carry a gun, but i have more sense than to shoot it into the air :-) also don't think i have ever identified myself as anything....

whatever the point was, i missed it i guess. maybe T will be kind enough to clarify?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

I was just thinking yesterday when I heard that a Muslim terrorist suicide bomber blew up a large number of Shia Muslims at a religious ceremony in Kabul, that its' been a long time since the Catholics would kill a bunch of protestants, at least in the US, just because they don't share the exact same beliefs... it certainly isn't every Muslim who would do such a thing, but there seems to be no shortage of those who would.

The 'point' some of you have helped me make is clear, by your own admission few if any of you have actually made face to face contact with any Muslims, much less lived with any, broke bread with any or known any for "years', watched their families grow, love, fight and die.

The internet doesn't count for much I'm afraid, as this site can sometimes loudly example (everyones an expert). Yet some of you have these very strong, fairly twisted viewpoints, most obviously based on the rhetoric coming from American Network/Cable News it seems. Why would anyone trust them in these times with so much real info available?

And the fact that so many cannot (refuse to) recognise our similarities is about as American as one can get, whenever discussing 'potential' enemies, real and imagined. We must first dehumanise the enemy before we can kill it, that's old school. I'm sure some of you have been around long enough to receive that indoctrination at some time, heh?

Well little has changed really, we still must 'believe' our enemies are somehow lesser than we are and some of the words spoken here show we are nearly ready to 'finally' invade Iran (make no mistake, its been the real 'Prize' all along). Does anyone really think having American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, surrounding Iran was an accident?

We initially overthrew their 'democratically' elected government in 1954 because that administration wanted to 'nationalise' the Country's OIL (not in our best interest) and was the 'real' reason we went after Saddam, as he was also talking about nationalising Iraq's OIL (also not in our best interest), although I don't think he would have done so. These are not issues widely talked about by average Americans, most know nothing about them, preferring to believe the myth as opposed to the reality.

Hey, I get all that and its OK really, as Jack once said; "You (some) can't handle the truth."

Frankly I'm not at all surprised. We Americans like to think we know it all and then are consistently surprised when our beliefs are challenged by 'someone elses' reality. Its part of any culture to do this to its people, by propping up the desired myth and lying about the reality, been going on long before any of us came on the scene, that's for certain.

Been a long time since Catholics killed a bunch of Protestants, heh? How about the opposite? Is that also true? Honestly, we really do have short memories in America. See Ireland's history on the killing that's occurred just in our lifetimes. See if the killers on both sides hadn't effectively dehumanised their enemies before the deeds were done.

Some of us live in a strange bubble, but again that's OK, the bubble probably keeps many from going quite mad and taking it out on their fellow citizens. Be aware people, its all we really have....for now anyway.

Sorry if this was a bit long for some (I could go on for quite awhile, as my expertise in Government for a time was in MIddle East and Central American Affairs).

And 'Please' don't take my word for any of this, check it out for yourselves.

thomas

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

The 'point' some of you have helped me make is clear, by your own admission few if any of you have actually made face to face contact with any Muslims, much less lived with any, broke bread with any or known any for "years', watched their families grow, love, fight and die.

thanks for the clarification. near as i can tell, you have a fundamental lack of knowledge about Islamaist. you know....those that will join the military, break bread with you, supposedly live an die with you....then shoot up your base?

i suspect that you believe that those of us who point out the dangers of the rise of the Islamaist are somehow Euro-centrist Islamophobes. people who think we are, are like the person who did my last CBRN class. she asked the stunning question "why would they want to kill 1st responders when we are there to help people"? i always wonder if that will be the dying thought of many people?

people are not just people. go travel a bit and get educated. in much of the world, Muslim or not, the same person who sits and has tea with you will murder you for whatever thing motivates them. sometimes it's money. sometimes it's religion.

BTW....the Protestant-Catholic fights in Ireland had little to do with religion. it had everything to do with politics. it was another one of those perhaps legitimate disagreements, co-opted and fomented, by bomb throwing nut-balls, at the expense of the majority of the population.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

Have broke bread with people who don't look like me. Some of them have in fact be Muslim.Maintain long relationships with people that don't look like me. Some of them are Muslim too.Even go so far as donating to a charity started by Muslims; though it helps anyone. (Women for Womenhttp://www.womenforwomen.org/

So...

My best friend served in Beirut. He was on duty when the Embassy was blown up (they came in a different entrance). Had to go help when the Barracks were blown up. His comments i cannot post but one, "we would have BBQ's on the weekends and invite all the locals. We were trying to get on their good sides. They'd show up eat and joke with us all afternoon. Then that night the same guys would shoot at us. We could see them!".

T, what do you want?

You say everybody's watching Fox news dehumanize Muslims so we don't feel bad about killing them or whatever. I got news for ya. That's how humans cope with killing humans. All Humans do that. On all sides. Always & forever!

So what's your point that's relevant? That if we took the time to know our enemies in a good way we'd all be at peace? You say no one can handle the truth but i think your pedestal might be so high you can't see the ground.

It sounds like you want to prove water is wet for a certain group. Well so what! it's wet for everybody.

Well I guess the vote is in, I simply don't know what I'm talking about. Some of you should run for elected office, your so certain of your convictions.

A special 'thanks' for all the corrections, I'll be contacting my former superiors to let them know how wrong I've been in writing the few hundred assessments analyzing behavior patterns (both individuals and groups) submitted over the years. You folks are way too smart for me. No reason to continue this discussion, heh?

I also had friends who were in Beirut in 82, some who didn't make it back whole, some who didn't make it back at all. I've had friends from 1971-2007 who didn't make it back from some of the places they were sent by American politicians. I won't bore anyone w/ my own participation in American foregin affairs, most of you apparently don't want to hear about it anyway (or have already embraced your assumptions), that's been made clear enough.

Thanks for all your help in keeping fear alive, good job! Now, on to Iran!

(did I really mention FOX TV?, Hmm) Later.

thomas

« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 09:12:21 AM by T Beek »

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

The 'point' some of you have helped me make is clear, by your own admission few if any of you have actually made face to face contact with any Muslims, much less lived with any, broke bread with any or known any for "years', watched their families grow, love, fight and die.

I admit I haven't.

But the point was also made that for the most part, these aren't the people we're fighting against and see as a threat. These aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves, blowing up pilgrims, random people, airplanes into buildings.

So what does us personally knowing Muslims here have to do with a very real threat from militant Muslims overseas?

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

2. Work toward fanning the flames of hate and intolerance by always condemning those we disagree with

How about:Work toward fanning the "flames of hate and intolerance" by always condemning those who want to KILL US.

Sorta like japanese honeybees - don't tolerate the hornet scouts, because we're aware of what comes behind them. If a beekeeper over there finds out where the asian hornet nest is, he's going to destroy that nest.

We can't tolerate the militant scouts, because we've experienced what comes behind them.

You all do realise that Americans have been actively (and quite blatantly) killing Muslims and supporting their killing(lots of other folks too) for well over fifty years, right? And if you want to go back further in our collective sordid past type in the name "General Smedly Butler" (the most decorated Marine of the 20Th Century, perhaps ever, not sure anymore) and read for yourselves what we've been up to and for how long.

Or does any of that not matter? Might makes right and all that jive. Well, in my limited experience I've found that might just makes enemies, usually where you had none to begin with.

I suppose preconceived ideas and assumptions are easier to contend with and although I believe its the lazy way to live life and its frustrating as hell to see it, I do understand the behavior and the reasons behind it very well (it was my job to make these kinds of observations and I was good at it). But 'Please' excuse me if I resist the same, no offense has ever been intended, seriously (well maybe I wanted to offend kathyp :), sorry).

Some seem to 'assume' my words are somehow Anti-American and have said so (not to my face though, the computer makes hero's of us all :roll:), but nothing could be further from the truth (my service record says something else, rest assured).

I've been around some, more than I care to remember on many days, and will tell anyone 'listening' that "even on its worst day, America still beats them all", so my best advise to those (pre) judgemental souls out there is to put away your own toys before you ever tell another to do so.

The end.

thomas

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

But 'Please' excuse me if I resist the same, no offense has ever been intended, seriously (well maybe I wanted to offend kathyp , sorry).

i am not easily offended, but i appreciate the effort!

Quote

so my best advise to those (pre) judgemental souls out there is to put away your own toys before you ever tell another to do so.

darlin', i never pulled my toys out :evil:

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

Back to the original post, if you didn’t want the “brotherhood” and these other conservative religious parties to win the elections in Egypt, just who did you think might win? The liberals? Ha.

LOL, now wouldn’t that be the pot calling the kettle black! Our conservative American friends rooting for the liberals overseas, but bashing them at home. The world would likely be a lot more peaceful with more liberals around wouldn’t it :)

Back to the original post, if you didn’t want the “brotherhood” and these other conservative religious parties to win the elections in Egypt, just who did you think might win? The liberals? Ha.

LOL, now wouldn’t that be the pot calling the kettle black! Our conservative American friends rooting for the liberals overseas, but bashing them at home. The world would likely be a lot more peaceful with more liberals around wouldn’t it

you assume that liberal and conservative mean the same thing in every political system. they do not.....but nice try! :-D

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

OK, go ahead and explain the difference to me. I always like to learn new knowledge

1st, just because someone assigns the labels, it does not mean the are accurate or even acceptable to the people in question. for our purposes, i'll accept them as you have used them.

in this country conservatives are generally those who believe in the constitutional limits on the federal government. they believe that less taxation, regulation, and interference, from the feds leads to maximum freedom for the states and the people. a subset of political conservatives are the social conservatives who have a more traditional view on the structure of society.

liberals tend to like bigger government, more regulation, and they are more apt to be globalist, wishing to do things through the UN, or international agreements. by default, because bigger government costs more, they are usually in favor of higher taxes as a method of funding...especially social welfare programs.

note i did not say republican or democrat. there are plenty of big government, big spending, republicans.

the Muslim brotherhood is Islamaist. if you don't know what an Islamaist is, look it up. they have to goal of creating a Muslim government in the Arab and Persian world, under Sharia law. this is often referred to as the caliphate. it would be applied to all Muslim countries.

i had the privilege to hear a number of speakers, many Muslim, a few years ago. the topic was the rise of the Islamaists and their goals. the Islamists have only two goals. the first is the establishment of the new caliphate. the second is the destruction of Israel. at the extremes you have those in Iran who believe that this is what the hidden imam will rule, and that it is their calling to create the conditions at any expense. at the less extreme, you have the Muslim Brotherhood who are satisfied with doing whatever it takes to take over the Muslim countries. Ayman al-Zawahiri, now the leader of AQ, was a leader in the Egyptian Jihad organization, the Egyptian Brotherhood, and the Muslim Brotherhood. the groups have been fluid in their membership and various groups have existed at the same time, but members can be tracked from one group though another over the years.

the Muslim Brotherhoods creed: "God is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations."

during the Q&A one of the Arab speakers was asked how many Muslims in the world are radicalized. radicalized = willing to do things like strap on bombs, crash planes, etc. that speaker put the number as high as 15% with double that number willing to providing moral and material support.if you accept the number 1.3 billion as the number of Muslims in the world, that would be 195 million willing to martyr themselves for the cause. even if he was way off on his numbers, or 1/2 got cold feet, that's still a lot of folks willing to die. why? in Islam, there is no assurance of acceptance to "heaven" EXCEPT martyrdom. everyone else finds out if they made it after they die and their works and life are evaluated. if you are a true believer and you are influenced by strong religious leaders, why not take the sure way?

so....it's not accurate to compare what some call "conservative" in Egypt, to what we call conservative here. now....if you want to take about places like Thailand.....there's a whole 'nother can of worms. ;)

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....