Skepticism

EVENTS

The nut doesn’t fall far from the tree

There’s another Hovind! And he’s an idiot, too! I’m no fan of genetic determinism, but man, when every person I know saddled with the name Hovind is a bible-thumping twit, I begin to have doubts.

The new Hovind is Chad. He’s a preacher, of course, and he likes to turn complex subjects into simple-minded Bible verses, of course, and he’s making videos to promote his nonsense, of course. His thing is Godonomics. You guessed it, the Bible tells you everything you need to know about economics. And his god is a free market capitalist, of course.

I watched a couple of his introductory videos. It’s the usual schtick: selective use of Bible verses with his own interpretations that allow him to twist it into his desired conclusion. We’re apparently supposed to recognize that “Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn” is a deep insight into modern economics, if only we’d see it.

I was also amused…hey, is he using a felt board to make his arguments? I haven’t seen one of those since Sunday school. Imagine Glenn Beck (who praises “Godonomics”, as does Mike Huckabee) using a felt board to put up his frantic diagrammatic scenarios. That’s this Hovind.

I looked, but I couldn’t see if Chad is fond of the kind of economic advice that put Kent in jail.

And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. Acts 2:44-45

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need. Acts 4:34-35

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Matthew 19:21

But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs. But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. I Timothy 6:9-11

But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? I John 3:17

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.” Matthew 6:24

And these are just the ones from the Greek Scriptures; there are others in the Hebrew (my favorite is Isaiah 58:1-7.)

This reminds me of a recent piece by Krugman; austerity as moralism, disconnected from actual facts.
Krugman: The Case For Austerity ‘Has Imploded’ “The 1 Percent’s Solution” http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/26/opinion/krugman-the-one-percents-solution.html?ref=opinion
”The paper compares the policy preferences of ordinary Americans with those of the very wealthy, and the results are eye-opening. …[snip]…
The austerity agenda looks a lot like a simple expression of upper-class preferences, wrapped in a facade of academic rigor. What the top 1 percent wants becomes what economic science says we must do. ”

Well, looky looky here. P Zed is just like Mike Judge after all. I cringe at P Zed’s post, which clearly endorses the same principles that are the underpinnings of eugenics. For shame, P Zed. For shame.

Well, looky looky here. It’s a recently endungeoned troll trying to sneak back under his usual bridge, using another nym and ply his old trade of stinking up the joint. Pro-tip douchebag, it helps not to call PZ by the same distinctive ‘P Zed’ as your last sockpuppet. For shame.

“And so God said, ‘Let my will be known. Buy low, sell high. Supply and demand run the economy. If one man, paid $8.50 can make forty widgets per hour, and one man, paid $7.50 can make thirty widgets per hour. How high should the cost be set per widget to make a profit?'”

In the thread “There are no marching morons” PZ pointed out that Idiocracy (a movie made by Mike Judge) and Eugenics share a premise (the stupid class outbreeding the intelligent class).

This pissed off harvardmba because he doesn’t understand that one person following the reasoning A -> B and others following the reasoning A -> C does not mean that the person arriving at B necessarily advocates C.

It pissed him so much that he ranted over and over about it until PZ banned him.

And now Bill Hicks (who I am sure has absolutely no connection at all with harvardmba despite both referring to PZ as P Zed and ranting in the same way on the same topic) is coincidentally here to show how PZ, sorry, P Zed is such a eugenics fan himself.

This made me laugh… Hovind says “if you don’t understand what a trillion dollars is, don’t worry the government doesn’t either. Its a million million“. Ha! Fail.

I remember learning that Jebus told a preacher that the only way to live as god wanted was to completely renounce all wordly possessions and give away everything and all his money to the poor. I wonder how Hovind squares that with his free-market capitalism? Ah no wait, strike that. I honestly couldn’t give a fuck.

Moggie—That’s a modern American and Western European romanticization of the Jesus myth. Popular, particularly in the 60s, but an interpretation that’s as baseless as Chad Hovind’s. The NT Jesus stories are no where promoting liberal democratic ideals, but illustrating the central figures messiahship. The messiah was the new king, thus the genealogies relating Jesus to the mythical David. That kings might be depicted as magnanimous (forgiving sins, accepting the outsider, feeding the poor) was a common practice even into relatively modern times, and should not be construed as a testament to anything remotely resembling socialism.

raven — “Democracy isn’t mentioned at all. Communism is though, and with approval.” It is? Might check how your reading those inkblots. The NT records some communal practices (a la Qumran) but I don’t see Communism of any stripe.

Odd, but I never noticed this scripture before, but if I remember right Corn (Maise) is native to the Americas and was only brought back to Europe in the 15th or 16th century. Creative writing from the Bible translators that probably even post dates the original King James version. I wonder if they added “corn” in an effort to appeal to the Native Americans they were forcing into labor camps in the Americas.

corn
“grain,” Old English corn, from Proto-Germanic *kurnam “small seed” (cf. Old Frisian and Old Saxon korn “grain,” Middle Dutch coren, German Korn, Old Norse korn, Gothic kaurn), from PIE root *gre-no- “grain” (cf. Old Church Slavonic zruno “grain,” Latin granum “seed,” Lithuanian žirnis “pea”). The sense of the Old English word was “grain with the seed still in” (e.g. barleycorn) rather than a particular plant.
Locally understood to denote the leading crop of a district. Restricted to corn on the cob in America (c.1600, originally Indian corn, but the adjective was dropped), usually wheat in England, oats in Scotland and Ireland…
from online etymological dictionary

This reminds me of a recent piece by Krugman; austerity as moralism, disconnected from actual facts.

Well, Merkel is a pastor’s daughter.

This made me laugh… Hovind says “if you don’t understand what a trillion dollars is, don’t worry the government doesn’t either. Its a million million“. Ha! Fail.

Uh, what? A thousand million is a billion, and a thousand billion is a trillion. So, a million million is a trillion.

Are you perhaps talking about languages other than English? In most of them, French for instance, a thousand million is a milliard, and a thousand milliards is a billion…

Odd, but I never noticed this scripture before, but if I remember right Corn (Maise) is native to the Americas and was only brought back to Europe in the 15th or 16th century. Creative writing from the Bible translators

…please. No.

Corn is the native English word that once meant the same as the French word grain. Later its meaning expanded to mean “cereals” – you know, lots and lots of little grains –, and then, very recently, in the USA, it narrowed down to what’s the default species of cereal there: maize.

The expansion to mean “cereals” has also happened in many German-speaking places, where the word is spelled Korn and pronounced just about the same as in English. Has led to interesting misunderstandings. I forgot the source and all details, but shortly after WWII the American occupiers asked some German official what was needed most urgently in all this destruction. Dude knew that people were hungry, so he said Korn, and then everyone was very surprised when large shipments of maize flour arrived, as opposed to wheat or perhaps rye.

raven — As I said, the NT records some of the practices of the community…thank you for citing one of the very places. But this is a religious community (“All who believe“) not an agenda for organizing states, which is what Communism is as outlined in Marx’s “Critique of the Gotha Program.” This religious community was interested in re-establishing the purity of the Law and the royal family of Jewish Israel, not in a collectivist Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Interestingly, the Greek word “koina” which is translated as “in common” in your translation from Acts, is also rendered as “in communion” in some other places. This could imply a religious ritual, hardly the stuff of Marx who, you’ll remember, described religion as the “opiate of the people.”

I also think “hippie” is a huge stretch (and I are one). Despite the hippie Jesus on our packs of Zig-Zags, the early Judeo-Christian religious community based in Palestine might be better compared to Hasidism.

I learned about what to call a million million in 1968, when Scrooge McDuck was counting his wealth. What Merkuns call a “trillion” is what Europeans used to call a “billion”. Swedish (and German) for US “billion” is “miljard”.
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PS I found an article claiming that erionite (common in parts of Merica) is as dangerous as asbestos. I will write about it in the Lounge.

Leviticus 25:35-37
“If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit

Matthew 5:42
Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Exodus 22:25
“If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him.

Luke 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deuteronomy 23:19
You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest.

Luke 14:12-14. When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

When I were a lad, we ‘ad proper British billions: a million million. And proper British trillions: a million million million. These puny American billions and trillions just aren’t up to snuff, and what’s more, they make nonsense of the prefixes, because they make a trillion (see that “tri” there?) neither a million million million, nor a thousand thousand thousand. Bah!

This religious community was interested in re-establishing the purity of the Law and the royal family of Jewish Israel

Citation needed. I doubt that’s what they were interested in; Christianity under Paul–and that’s what Acts describes–stressed freedom from Jewish Law. Paul’s Thing was making Christianity attractive to gentiles.

sorry. but I personally don’t give a flying damn if Jesus (assuming for a moment he existed at all) approved of communism, capitalism or the price of tea in Assyria. Or perhaps more to the point — as fictional characters go, I really care far more about what Bilbo Baggins thinks of having lemon cake for tea than I do about what Yeshua ben Joseph might have thought about economics.

The invisible hand works in mysterious ways! The invisible hand is a force for good! The invisible hand make bad things happen, but when bad things do happen, that is all People’s fault, and the price of being free! The invisible hand totally exists and any attempt to live as if it didn’t and take things into our hands will only anger it! The invisible hand is a vengeful god! The invisible hand hates sinners! The invisible hand is a loving god! The invisible hand will reward true believers! No, you cannot measure or try to observe the invisible hand, that is cheating and will make the invisible even more invisible! Now, let us pray.

Ulysses — “That’s not Jesus, that’s Monseiur Zig-Zag! You’re unfamiliar with basic hippylore. Turn in your beads.” Yes, of course it’s not Jesus. However, I’m hippie enough to know that there were hippie’s that truly believed it was. It didn’t look like Jesus to me, but then I never saw Jesus.

Stacy — The part about the Hasidim is from (I believe) Randell Helms The Bible Against Itself. I’ve read similar things about the early Christian cult, such as in Thomas Thompson’s The Mythic Past. It’s common knowledge that Acts doesn’t just describe Paul’s Christianity (tho it is a defense), it also describes the cult in Jerusalem and the conflict between the two (and who knows if the writer had any accurate info about this). In the context of the story, the cult in Jerusalem was THE Christianity. Paul went there as an interloper to win their approval (with money BTW) for bringing more “gentiles” (which is a complex topic itself) into the cult by specifically foregoing the most important mark of the cult…circumcision. In fact, Paul failed to win that approval, and failed again some years later, ending up in Rome and dead.