That is how you come across to me. In other words, it's an opinion. If you feel that is an inaccurate view of you then you might ask why someone has that view of you. Or maybe you don't care.

I care in the sense that I would like to see why you think that based on nothing but your own personal biases. That's interesting to me. Since I'm not what you think, why you think that is interesting.

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What is the big deal? If you met a woman and was sexually interested in her would you freak out if she said thanks, but no thanks, she's a lesbian? Or asexual? Do you freak out if a gay man inquires if you are into men? OK, she's not in the group you want to date, say thanks but no thanks, and get on with life

I wouldn't "freak out" for any of those scenarios. Not sure why you would think that. I'd rather say "no thanks" and get on with life before I wasted hours on a date, that's all.

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They don't want to waste THEIR time dating YOU

That's great. I'm in perfect agreement.

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I think at least part of the problem is that my viewpoint is so far from yours that you have trouble wrapping your head around it.

I think you have preconceived notions about how people act when faced with certain scenarios and cannot cope when you talk with someone who doesn't fit your notions.

As proof, I ask you to find anything I have stated that leads you to believe that I have a bias against transgender people. I almost guarantee that you can't find any. But you will continue to think it based on nothing but your own incorrect feelings.

You wouldn't think that I maybe wanted to date someone that I could have sex with? It's automatically some sort of transgender bias?

Physically you could have sex with a transwoman. Post surgery you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless she's one of the unfortunates who can't pass at all, but then, if that was the case you'd know right from the start and probably cancel the date before it happened.

You choose not to have sex with transwomen. That is entirely your right. But don't pretend it's because they are somehow physically incompatible. After bottom surgery transwomen have vaginas. After top surgery they have breasts. A lot of them exert a lot of effort to look as feminine as possible. You don't like the fact that in the past those women used to have a penis and presented as men. I base that on your continued focus on "anatomy". You find it a turn off. I get it. No one is saying that you are wrong to have that preference.

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If you had actually read this thread, you would know that. I would put in my profile that I am looking for a gender-typical woman. I would expect that any transgender woman would not reply to my profile, thus I wouldn't insist on anything.

I wouldn't reply to your profile either, because when I read that you want "gender typical women" you want someone conforming to female stereotypes, a girly-girl, which I most assuredly am not even if I am heterosexual and cisgender. Which probably isn't a problem as I'm pretty sure neither of wants to date the other for reasons other than anatomy, sexual orientation, and trans/cis status. We disagree on a lot of stuff on a regular basis.

By saying "gender typical", though, you're excluding people other than transwomen. Maybe you don't realize that. Maybe you don't care. That's why some of us are saying that your wording might not be ideal for the effect you want.

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If you can produce one statement of mine, in context, that shows I have a bias against transgender people, I will apologize. If not, I suggest you retract your statement.

Well, the fact you say absolutely never to an intimate relationship with one does reveal a bias. As I have said repeatedly, you have every right to be picky about who you have sex with. Maybe you're open to being friends with a transwoman but all you keep coming back to in this thread is sex, sex, and the possibility of sex. I don't know - are you comfortable having transgender friends/co-workers/neighbors?

FWIW, I agree with a lot of what Broomstick said. (And Una, I hope consider me a friend as well.)

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi

80%+ of the population is transphobic?

Where did I say they were? No, my own personal view is that people are attracted to what they're attracted to. Just don't be a dick about it. (Like don't say something like, "Eeew, you're a tranny? Gross!" Or whatever.)

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Originally Posted by manson1972

No, I am not.

So what term DO you mean? Because the phrase to mean opposite of trans, as in someone born who identifies with the sex they were born with, is cisgender. Don't like it, write to Websters. I agree it's kind of an awkward sounding word, but what can you do?

Yes, technically use whatever word you want, but then you don't have the right to bitch when people misunderstand you.

Really? I can have vaginal sex with a pre-op transgender woman? I'd like you to explain how that is possible

(And I don't know if saying pre-op is bad or good nowadays, I mean no offense by it)

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You choose not to have sex with transwomen. That is entirely your right. But don't pretend it's because they are somehow physically incompatible.

Of course they are. I want to have vaginal sex with a woman.

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After bottom surgery transwomen have vaginas. After top surgery they have breasts. A lot of them exert a lot of effort to look as feminine as possible.

I don't like fake breasts, so that's not a turn on for me. I would have no problem dating a transgender woman who had surgery. I've never done it, but I suspect there is some sort of difference. If not, then it's all good.

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You don't like the fact that in the past those women used to have a penis and presented as men

I have in no way stated this. This is your own bias projecting what I think.

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I wouldn't reply to your profile either, because when I read that you want "gender typical women" you want someone conforming to female stereotypes, a girly-girl, which I most assuredly am not even if I am heterosexual and cisgender. Which probably isn't a problem as I'm pretty sure neither of wants to date the other for reasons other than anatomy, sexual orientation, and trans/cis status. We disagree on a lot of stuff on a regular basis

That's okay. I know a lot of good people that I wouldn't want to date.

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I don't know - are you comfortable having transgender friends/co-workers/neighbors?

Of course. I don't know why you would think otherwise. I am comfortable having as friends/co-workers/neighbors anyone as long as they aren't morons.

Man: Yay! I have a date tonight with a hot chick I met on a dating site. If things go well, maybe I will have sex tonight!

After the date is almost over and she tells him she is transgender: Damn, why didn't she say she was transgender beforehand, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

I can see saying "Damn, how disappointing, there's an evening wasted" or something like that (if our friend Man does in fact feel that any date with a hot chick where he doesn't end up having sex is nothing but a complete waste of time. Very romantic, can't imagine why a guy like that is still single ).

But it's that "why didn't she say she was transgender beforehand" that carries the weird air of entitlement.

If instead she revealed that she's asexual, or piously intends to remain a virgin until marriage, would Man in that case also have said "Damn, why didn't she tell me beforehand"?

It's simply not a date's responsibility to tell you beforehand any particular thing that you might find disappointing about her. Treating transgender status as a special case of something that your date ought to tell you about beforehand suggests that maybe you do perceive it as kind of gross.

Our buddy Man can't have it both ways. If he says "Hey, I'm not transphobic, I'm just trying to avoid any dates that I can't have sex with", then he shouldn't be putting transgender women in a special category of "potential dates who are morally obligated to warn me in advance about their particular reason that I might not consider them someone I can have sex with".

(And btw, I'm not oblivious to the potential distorting influence on this whole issue of the persistent archaic and sexist social expectation that men will do the paying on dates. All dates between strangers should absodamnlutely be Dutch-treat; financially one-sided relationships should be either explicitly commercial transactions or voluntary mutual arrangements between people who know and trust each other. I don't claim that the monetary burden on men in the dating world in any way justifies male sexism towards women, but it certainly doesn't do anything to help it, and the same goes for male prejudices against transgender women in particular.)

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Originally Posted by manson1972

I would put in my profile that I am looking for a gender-typical woman.

Which, as I've said all along, I consider a perfectly reasonable and advisable thing to do if you don't want to date transgender women. (However, I still think it would be clearer if you phrased it using terms like "cisgender" or "not transgender". To me, "gender-typical" connotes "gender-conforming" more than "cisgender", and suggests that what you're trying to avoid is conventionally "unfeminine" women with short hair or Doc Martens or construction-site jobs or something like that, irrespective of their genital anatomy.)

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-16-2017 at 10:44 PM.
Reason: Does anybody even wear Doc Martens any more or even know what they are? I am an old.

Really? I can have vaginal sex with a pre-op transgender woman? I'd like you to explain how that is possible

Oh - now you clarify that with "pre-op". Up until now you've been saying "transwoman" without that qualification.

As to sex with a pre-op transwoman... no, you couldn't have penis-in-vagina sex with such a person but I assume you are experienced enough to know that there are more options for intimacy than just that. If you find those options distasteful, well, again, you have every right to decided what sort of sex/intimacy you choose to participate in.

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(And I don't know if saying pre-op is bad or good nowadays, I mean no offense by it)

If you said "no pre-op transwomen" you might then have some people assuming post-op transwomen are OK with you.

I suppose you could say "no sex or dating people with a penis", which would be highly specific. "My favorite sex act is penis in vagina." Whatever works, I suppose.

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I don't like fake breasts, so that's not a turn on for me. I would have no problem dating a transgender woman who had surgery. I've never done it, but I suspect there is some sort of difference. If not, then it's all good.

If a post-op transwoman is not a problem then it's not them being a transwoman that's a problem, it's that you want them to be post rather than pre-op.

I'm told that if the surgery and transition is well done no, you can't tell a difference, at least not without a fairly invasive examination, well beyond what a penis does during intercourse. I wouldn't know myself, not being into women.

So maybe what you're really saying is that you don't want to date a transwoman who hasn't had bottom surgery....?

I suppose you could say "no sex or dating people with a penis", which would be highly specific. "My favorite sex act is penis in vagina." Whatever works, I suppose.

I'm fairly certain I have said that.

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If a post-op transwoman is not a problem then it's not them being a transwoman that's a problem, it's that you want them to be post rather than pre-op

I've never said that being a transwoman is the problem. It's lack of expected anatomy that is the problem.

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So maybe what you're really saying is that you don't want to date a transwoman who hasn't had bottom surgery....?

A transgender woman who has had bottom surgery and presents as an attractive woman is indistinguishable from a gender-typical woman. Why wouldn't I date someone like that? Is that even a real question?

Okay, I now see why you want to state your criterion on your dating profile as "gender-typical" instead of "not transgender".

But I still think it comes across as confusing. What you seem to really mean is "somebody with female anatomy, either original equipment or custom-built".

Yes. And as a man, I would surmise that most men feel the same way. Which is why I'm not sure there is confusion when a man doesn't want a second date with someone who doesn't have "original equipment" or "custom-built" equipment as you put it.

And as a man, I would surmise that most men feel the same way. Which is why I'm not sure there is confusion when a man doesn't want a second date with someone who doesn't have "original equipment" or "custom-built" equipment as you put it.

I never said there was anything confusing about the fact that most straight men don't want to have sex with somebody who has a penis. What I said was that I think it's a bit confusing for you to use the term "gender-typical" when what you mean is essentially "either female-assigned at birth or else somebody I couldn't tell apart from somebody who was female-assigned at birth".

I understand that you are using the term "gender-typical" in the sense of "someone whose anatomy is typical of the gender that they identify and present as". I'm just saying that a lot of people wouldn't immediately know to interpret that term in that way.

I never said there was anything confusing about the fact that most straight men don't want to have sex with somebody who has a penis. What I said was that I think it's a bit confusing for you to use the term "gender-typical" when what you mean is essentially "either female-assigned at birth or else somebody I couldn't tell apart from somebody who was female-assigned at birth".

I understand that you are using the term "gender-typical" in the sense of "someone whose anatomy is typical of the gender that they identify and present as". I'm just saying that a lot of people wouldn't immediately know to interpret that term in that way.

Fair enough. Maybe repetitive use of the term to mean that will lead more people to understand what it means.

There could be a lot of reasons a particular person isn't getting a second date. I think being transgender is somewhat like being disabled - a lot of folks are just not going to want to rub naughties with you no matter what. This may be exacerbated for some people post-transition if pre-transition they had little or not problem getting second dates. Transitioning to a preferred gender means your dating pool is going to shrink enormously. I'm sorry that's the case, but I would hope that that is made clear to people before they begin their physical transition, and it's yet another reason for competent psychological counseling.

Quoted for truth.

Much of this thread has centered around dating and or the first date. (And a few pages of confusion largely because of poor terminology - transwoman versus post-op transsexual. The former being any transgendered person whether pre-op, post-op, or not transitioning at all, who identifies as female but was born physically male, while the latter is very specific - someone who is transgendered, has transitioned, AND has had vaginoplasty.)

Anyway, while the first date / dating is a difficulty for transgendered people, what's even worse are the long term prospects.

In my opinion, there are 3 hurdles someone has to cross if they are dating from the very beginning / prior to their transition:

(In this example, a transwoman, but reverse terms and the same applies for transmen)
1) If you meet someone you really like while you are still presenting / dressing as your birth sex, for example at work:

If you are a straight trans woman: The man you are with is likely only attracted to men. Once you come out and begin living as a woman, the relationship is over.
If you are a lesbian trans woman: The woman you are with is likely only attracted to men. Once you come out and begin living as a woman, the relationship is over.

2) If you meet someone after you are already living as a woman, and they are content with your outward appearance not matching your anatomy - they may not be equally content with the idea of you completing your transition. Once you have the final surgery, if their preference is someone who *does* have a penis (or some time before, if it becomes nonfunctional at some point in the process), then the relationship is over.

3) Once your transition is complete, any relationship you have is going to reach a point where you disclose that you were raised as a member of the opposite sex. And finding out if the other person has a problem with that. If they do, the relationship is over.

I can understand why many who are transgendered give up on relationships and dating. There aren't a whole lot of people who are: a) bisexual, if they're going to be with you through your entire transition, and b) accepting of transgendered persons. And you're competing against every other trans person to find that particular needle in a haystack.

On the topic of disclosure: If we're talking about meeting someone in the 1) stage, I did not disclose this, because it is not relevant to disclose during casual dating. However, I did find a rather important and necessary thing to share if things were becoming serious and there was a prospect of a long term relationship.

When you are in the 2) / transitioning phase: IMO pre-disclosure is not only none of their business, but as others have mentioned, dangerous. People get beaten and killed every year for casually revealing that information before they have learned if they can trust that person. And at the very least, they can ruin your career and family life with very little effort and sometimes without even intending to do so. I would say *any* time prior to becoming intimate with the other person is the right time, if that person feels that it is - and the wrong time if they don't.

3) / Post transition: I'm not there yet, but I would say that at that point, it falls back into the "none of your business" category. If you have some hangup about it, that's really your problem. If we're going to have a long term relationship, of course I'll disclose my past because that's part of a serious relationship, and I will of course be introducing you to my family and friends who knew me before the transition.

__________________
- Born after "computer" was a synonym for "woman" but before "worker" becomes a synonym for "robot."

I think what we disagree about is when that revelation should occur. I don't have a problem with it being delayed until intimacy is about to occur. Then again, if you're into having sex on the first that will come up pretty quickly, unlike myself that likes to take a little more time to get to know a person, first.

There could be a lot of reasons a particular person isn't getting a second date. I think being transgender is somewhat like being disabled - a lot of folks are just not going to want to rub naughties with you no matter what. This may be exacerbated for some people post-transition if pre-transition they had little or not problem getting second dates. Transitioning to a preferred gender means your dating pool is going to shrink enormously. I'm sorry that's the case, but I would hope that that is made clear to people before they begin their physical transition, and it's yet another reason for competent psychological counseling.

Like I said, I think our disagreement is about when this is made clear. What other medical items are you supposed to reveal before the first date? Colostomy bags? Infertility? Skin grafts?

I agree that the "when" is where we disagree.

I think I have stated the reason why being upfront is the best course. What is the point behind waiting until the 10th date when things are about to get hot and heavy? Is it just to give yourself some time to figure out if this person is going to beat you up (so its a method of vetting your romantic partners before you reveal yourself to them)? Is it because you think that with enough emotional attachment people might be willing to give it a shot even if they wouldn't have when you first started dating (so its a method of expanding your pool of romantic partners)?

The vast majority of my dates have either been with people who set us up or with people i knew for a while before we ever started dating. Is everyone just using dating sites these days? If so then why don't the dating sites allow you to screen out transgender folks so that you never get matched with someone that is transgender?

Without picking on any one post or person in particular, I have still not seen any convincing argument as to why someone who does not want to date a transgender person should not be open and forthright about that on a dating site, right in their profile where it can't be missed.

I think I have stated the reason why being upfront is the best course. What is the point behind waiting until the 10th date when things are about to get hot and heavy? Is it just to give yourself some time to figure out if this person is going to beat you up (so its a method of vetting your romantic partners before you reveal yourself to them)?

Maybe - is that really so bad? If after several dates you have reason to fear physical violence then that's an excellent reason to end the relationship.

There's a point where the wait is too long, but I think individual circumstances vary so much that I wouldn't give a hard and fast rule.

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Is it because you think that with enough emotional attachment people might be willing to give it a shot even if they wouldn't have when you first started dating (so its a method of expanding your pool of romantic partners)?

Another possibility. I don't think that is likely to work, but it might. If someone gets to know you as a person first rather than as a "condition" that could alter how accepting they are.

Maybe it's a combination of the above.

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The vast majority of my dates have either been with people who set us up or with people i knew for a while before we ever started dating. Is everyone just using dating sites these days?

I have no real idea - I've been off the market for the last 30 years myself, and don't feel ready at the moment to start pursuing another romance. I'm not even sure I care about another romance at this point, I'm still grieving the loss of my spouse.

I suspect "dating sites" are a bit like bars and clubs were back when I was last dating - it's a common way to meet up with people, but not the only one, and not even always the best one.

Emphasis added. So why are you letting the transgender-dating-averse men get away with the dishonesty of not being upfront about the fact that they don't want to date transgender people?

Because there is NOTHING dishonest about it. There is no intent to deceive or misinform anyone about their aversion to transgender romantic partners. The population of people who don't want to date transgender is very high, the population of transgender is very low. That is why utilitarian principles inform ethics here.

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As you and molten noted, a lot of transgender-dating-averse men don't want to reveal that fact about themselves to potential dates because a lot of women will find it unappealing. But if they don't want to be dishonest, according to you, they have to be upfront.

I said WHAT?!?!? I may have pointed out something YOU said but I don't think there is a stigma attached to not wanting to date transgender. None whatsoever.

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What you've got here, Damuri Ajashi, isn't an ethical argument. It's merely a retrofitted rationalization for pandering to the preferences of straight cisgender men at the expense of everybody else's.

"I shouldn't have to be upfront about my objections to dating transgender women, because that might get negative reactions from women in general. But transgender women should feel obligated to be upfront about their transgender status, and HIV+ women also should feel obligated to be upfront about their HIV+ status. There's nothing wrong with my concealing the characteristics that other people probably wouldn't like about me, but other people are being dishonest if they don't immediately reveal the characteristics that I probably wouldn't like about them."

Nope, you're getting really good at being wrong.

I don't think there is ANY stigma attached to an aversion to dating transgender or even HIV. NONE.

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Personally, I still prefer the far more straightforward and fair ethical approach that recognizes that it's not dishonest for anybody to conceal personal information from potential dates, but if you do conceal a personal issue that's very important to you for dating compatibility, you may sometimes find out you've been dating someone you're not compatible with.

Transgenderism is too rare for your idea to warrant much more than a chuckle.

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And if that happens, you don't get to blame the other person for having concealed information from you while you were busy concealing from them the fact that you wanted to know it.

As has been discussed at length, transition is a meaningful and validated method for improving quality of life and for relieving distress of transgender persons. My professional experience working at a psychological counseling institute that almost exclusively treats transgender persons, as well as my experience with the community on 4 continents, has been exactly that as well.

And Damuri Ajashi seems to concur that this negative perception exists:

Nope, I was just quoting the inconsistency in YOUR position

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Which sits a little oddly with Damuri Ajashi's simultaneous insistence that it's so overwhelmingly normal and natural and nearly-universal for straight cisgender men to want to avoid any kind of dating activity whatsoever involving a transgender woman.

If you consider 80%+ "near universal" then sure. 80%+ of all MEN AND WOMEN don't want to date transgender.

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I would think that if strongly wanting to avoid any risk at all of going on even a first date with a woman who happens to be transgender is really such a typical attitude for such a vast majority of straight men, they wouldn't be at all embarrassed or hesitant to admit it right up front.

They're not. Its just not something you think about until the situation presents itself because its so fucking rare.

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If your question is (A), then I think Broomstick said it best:

Being so anxious to avoid any possible dating activity whatsoever with transgender women that you require them to pre-emptively announce their transgender status even without being asked about it does suggest the possibility of transphobia. As Miller put it,

Transphobia or not, 80%+ do not want to date transgender. Knowing this, not disclosing your transgender status before getting romantically involved is deceptive. Its not the end of the world but its dishonest.

No, that's not the part I quoted. I don't think that the mere fact of being not being sexually attracted to a transgender person is "anti-trans" at all, much less "virulently" so.

But I do agree that a lot of straight cisgender women wouldn't want to date a man who was virulently anti-trans. And I think that being super-averse to even the possibility of even starting to date a transgender woman, to the point where you insist that transgender women are obligated to announce their status pre-emptively to all potential dates without even being asked, can raise some red flags in the "anti-trans" category.

You have a very weird definition of virulent.

80%+ of people are averse to dating trasngender. That's men and women. I insist that dating someone who does not know you are trans when you know that 80% of people wouldn't want to date you if they knew is dishonest.

You can go out and date strangers (I don't think I have done this very frequently outside of blind date sort of situations) but if so then you are being dishonest if you don't tell them you are transgender.

The surgeries are actually relatively easy. Relative to the potential loss of marriage, children, friends, relatives, community standing, church, housing, employment and career.

Please consider re-calibrating what about us seems like it would be most difficult. I won't make light of the medical aspect of transition, I've had several surgeries. But...honestly, all the physical pain, the psychodrama, etc. around the medical part of transition, pales next to the familial, career, social, legal, and other aspects.

Ask yourself why surgery seems to be the most difficult part to imagine. Because I and all my kin would assure you, it's really not.

I can't pretend that I can walk in your shoes. I understand that the ostracization by family and friends can be severe. I don't know how it scales with coming out as gay but I suspect its at least as bad as coming out was in the 1980s. Most of the other stuff seems like things that can be addressed with legislation.

I don't recall signing up for any one person's concept of "utilitarian principles" which apparently inform their ethics.

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Nope, you're wrong again.

You're defending a right of one party to not be forthright entering a relationship, while demanding the other party must be forthright - based on something you call "utilitarian principles." Step back a minute and think about how what you are writing looks.

Where's the threshold for when the majority no longer shares an equal moral obligation with a subgroup? What is that critical percentage point? Be very careful whatever number you choose, as I'm certain there are quite a few oxen to be gored with nearly any value that is selected. Or, if the magnitude of the number is weighted by any sort of fuzzy "utilitarian" logic, then the number becomes opinion-based, and at that point it's not utilitarianism, it's merely one's bias on one side of the issue or another.

Another factor when considering percentages is that while transgender and gender non-confirming persons may make up no more than 0.3-0.6% of the population, we tend to be much less likely to be in a committed long-term relationship, or married. Our apparent impact on a dating site thus may easily be magnified by 2-4 times whatever our actual population ought to be on the site (simply my guess based upon what I know of my community) (and as I said earlier, if it's on a site called "Southern Baptist Mingle" then there may be not a single transgender person present...then again, I know at least two Southern Baptist ministers who are transgender and in hiding...).

So if we break the 1% barrier, are we significant enough? Or is the number 2%? 5%? 49.99%? At what point should a person who simply doesn't want to date, or who is disgusted by transgender persons, obligated to be honest and forthright about that fact when trying to filter their responses on a dating site?

I did not say that you, specifically, are "virulently anti-trans" but if I read in a profile that you will not date transgender people, period, then yes, I am going suspect there may be some sort of bias there. I kind of wonder about people who would say they would never ever date someone of a different ethnicity, too. I defend their right to choose the sexual partners they prefer, but that doesn't meant I have to agree with their preferences.

I want to date people more open minded than that. That is my choice, just as it is your choice to NOT date transwomen. If you want me to respect your choices then you need to respect mine.

I am definitely concerned that you insist on transgender people having to announce that publicly and repeatedly when such admission can still carry very real physical risks. When people choose to divulge that should be up to them, just divulging homosexuality or interest in BDSM or polyamory should be left up to the individual, with the exception that they should divulge that before actual sex/intimacy takes place. If you aren't intimate with them it's none of your business.

There is also the fact that in your particular case it's not just that you don't want to date transwomen but some of the other statements you've made over time about transgender people that leads me to think you have some bias against them.

80%+ don't want to date transgender. I suspect that 80%+ of the population is biased against dating transgender.

Because there is NOTHING dishonest about it. There is no intent to deceive or misinform anyone about their aversion to transgender romantic partners. The population of people who don't want to date transgender is very high, the population of transgender is very low. That is why utilitarian principles inform ethics here.

But the risk of significant negative consequences to a transgender person revealing their status to a potentially hostile audience are much, much higher than the risk of significant negative consequences to a person not wishing to date a transgender person to a potentially hostile audience. Thus both the utilitarian principles and ethics here point to the wisdom of the latter group disclosing their views rather than the former disclosing their status.

But the risk of significant negative consequences to a transgender person revealing their status to a potentially hostile audience are much, much higher than the risk of significant negative consequences to a person not wishing to date a transgender person to a potentially hostile audience. Thus both the utilitarian principles and ethics here point to the wisdom of the latter group disclosing their views rather than the former disclosing their status.

Quoted for emphasis.

If you find out someone is transgendered any time before you were going to have sex, the worst that can happen is you are disappointed and have to start dating someone else. After what were presumably some nice or fun dates, since you want to have sex with that person.

If a transgendered person walks around announcing to everyone they just met 5 minutes ago that they are trans, they stand a pretty good chance of bodily harm from the people they're announcing that to, people who overhear, or people that person shares that information with. To say nothing of the even higher likelihood of lesser degrees of consequences including legal consequences (you used the wrong bathroom! Predator!), loss of employment, loss of housing, and social ostracization from those 80% of people who are not O.K. with transgendered people.

__________________
- Born after "computer" was a synonym for "woman" but before "worker" becomes a synonym for "robot."

If you find out someone is transgendered any time before you were going to have sex, the worst that can happen is you are disappointed and have to start dating someone else. After what were presumably some nice or fun dates, since you want to have sex with that person.

To be fair - this being the internet age, announcing you don't want to date transgender people could potentially result in the receipt of some angry abuse. But the odds of it reaching anything like this level...

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If a transgendered person walks around announcing to everyone they just met 5 minutes ago that they are trans, they stand a pretty good chance of bodily harm from the people they're announcing that to, people who overhear, or people that person shares that information with. To say nothing of the even higher likelihood of lesser degrees of consequences including legal consequences (you used the wrong bathroom! Predator!), loss of employment, loss of housing, and social ostracization from those 80% of people who are not O.K. with transgendered people.

80%+ don't want to date transgender. I suspect that 80%+ of the population is biased against dating transgender.

Just to clarify - by "dating" do you mean "spending time like going out to dinner or a movie" or by "dating" to you mean "have sex with this person". Because apparently "dating" means the former to some and the latter to others.

That's probably another thing to clarify before heading out for dinner and movie - whether or not you expect sex to be the third act.

As has been discussed at length, transition is a meaningful and validated method for improving quality of life and for relieving distress of transgender persons. My professional experience working at a psychological counseling institute that almost exclusively treats transgender persons, as well as my experience with the community on 4 continents, has been exactly that as well.

Pretty basic logic if you ask me. A dude thinks he's a female when in reality and biologically he is a male. What would you classify this if not a mental disorder?

The situation of transgender individuals trying to date already puts more burden on them than almost anyone else trying to date has to contend with. I don't feel like I'm in a position to advise transgender people on how to behave with regards to when to inform their dating partners; they face some steep risks ranging from ridicule and disgust to violent beatings and murder.

An episode of "The Closer" revolved around a trans man who was murdered by a shocked and horrified woman who had become involved and was not expecting to find herself involved with a person who had female-body configurations. Part of what made the episode good suspense was that this is a rare situation for such violence —it's mostly trans women who are at risk, and mostly from men.

I was once flirted with by someone I assumed to be female; she was presenting as a woman, and was friendly and invited me to go smoke pot with her. In the apartment she led me to, I felt uncomfortable once I was stoned and it felt to me I was being leered at in a prurient way that felt, I don't know, ...snarky. Creepy. We had kissed a bit and done some light fondling. I didn't like how I was feeling and withdrew a bit and thanked her for sharing her pot and declined the offer to stay; she grinned at me and abruptly groped me in the crotch. At no point did she either yank her garments aside to reveal anything so as to confirm male-body types of parts or tell me "Hey, I'm transgender", but somehow I drew the conclusion that I'd been spending the last half hour with a peniled person. (Quite possibly identifies as a crossdresser not a transgender woman, but who knows?) I think this is the sort of scenario that lots of guys who demand being told "up front" are concerned about: they envision being tricked into participating with someone they think of as a female woman and thus lured into kissing and fondling someone who turns out to have boy-shaped parts.

Yeah, well? What harm was done? I didn't appreciate the crotch-grab. I bet lots of women go on dates with guys and wish their partners had told them upfront "I like to grab women without their consent and force myself on them a bit to see if they'll fight me off or submit to it, then call them bitch if they do". I found the person rather creepy. We'd all probably like disclaimers from the world's creepy people: "I behave badly when I think maybe I'm gonna get some action, I practically drool, wanna go on a date?" But ultimately that's what dating is, it's the environment where you find out how things might be with this person.

This person was not a good poster child for transgender people and their dating behavior. It's decently close to worst case scenario for the poor worried cisgender straight guys. As someone who's been there and done that (or had that done), I say "get over yourself, you'll live".

This person was not a good poster child for transgender people and their dating behavior. It's decently close to worst case scenario for the poor worried cisgender straight guys. As someone who's been there and done that (or had that done), I say "get over yourself, you'll live".

You, and some other posters, are still, in my opinion, misrepresenting the reasons why a man wouldn't want to date a pre-op transgender woman. Feel and/or worry has nothing to do with it.

I think what you want to say is that you are only interested in dating people who have vaginas, and not penises. That's not "cis" and it's not "gender typical", either. If you will feel disappointed if there's not a chance for PIV sex at the end of your first date, I think that's worth putting in your dating profile. There are lots of women (cis, gender typical women, even) who aren't interested in sex on a first date. And there are men who don't expect it, either.

Especially if you will feel you wasted your time if it turns out you you dated someone who won't offer you PIV sex right away, you should say so. Probably not quite that bluntly, but I'm not up to wording it nicely right now.

If you will feel disappointed if there's not a chance for PIV sex at the end of your first date, I think that's worth putting in your dating profile. There are lots of women (cis, gender typical women, even) who aren't interested in sex on a first date. And there are men who don't expect it, either.

Especially if you will feel you wasted your time if it turns out you you dated someone who won't offer you PIV sex right away, you should say so. Probably not quite that bluntly, but I'm not up to wording it nicely right now.

Thanks for sharing, but I fail to see the purpose of what you wrote. Most of it inaccurately describes what I or other gender-typical straight men may think.

I was once at a party where a woman explained that she'd had an elective C-section so that her baby would share a birthday with her mother. I admit, I was horrified. But that's at least one case in the last decade or so of a C-section with no medical need. I rather doubt it's the only one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimstu

I don't disagree exactly, but I just think that doesn't fully take into account the callous Catch-22 that society's gender-binary conventions foist on trans people.

Transgender woman:I have a penis but it feels natural to me to think of myself as a woman. I want to live and be accepted as a woman.

Society:Sorry freak, you can't be a real woman unless you have tits and a vagina! Ha ha ha ha weirdo freak!

Transgender woman:Okay, I want treatment and surgery to get tits and a vagina so I can live and be accepted as a woman.

Society:Why are you trying to mutilate your healthy body, you freak?! Off to the funny farm with you! Ha ha ha weirdo freak!

It doesn't surprise me at all that so many transgender people are tempted to kill themselves. What surprises and impresses me is that they don't end up killing more of the rest of us who are doing this to them.

Yeah. I suspect that a large fraction of the mental health problems in the trans community are caused by society's reaction to them. I read somewhere that a really high percentage of gays were suicidal and mentally ill back in the old days, when it was socially unacceptable to be gay. I bet that if society were more accepting of trans people they would have mental illness rates similar to the mental illness rates of left handed people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrCube

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness that can be treated quite successfully by transitioning to the gender one identifies as. "Being transgender" is the cure, not the disease.

Not always. To speak from anecdote again...I have a close friend with gender dysphoria who has decided to live as a non-gender-conforming man. That's in part because he is really creeped out by the idea of surgically modifying his body -- even though parts of it make him uncomfortable. And it's in part because he doesn't think changing his body will actually cure him.

He is influenced by the experience of one of his romantic partners. They were assigned female at birth. At great cost, they transitioned to male, and were still unhappy. They now identify as non-binary, and recently paid a lot to have all their beard-hair removed. They usually present as "ambiguous", but when they wear gendered clothing it's female clothing. That person seems relatively emotionally stable to me right now, but apparently had a lot of really bad depressive episodes, both when they looked like a girl and also when they looked like a girl.

My friend says he's done a lot of research, and there is a large population which is not helped by gender-confirmation surgery. I suspect the underlying issue is that it doesn't fix the problem of family and co-workers thinking they are freaks, which is the source of a lot of the emotional problems.

I applaud anyone who is helped by gender confirmation surgery, but I don't believe it is a panacea.

Thanks for sharing, but I fail to see the purpose of what you wrote. Most of it inaccurately describes what I or other gender-typical straight men may think.

Then what do you mean? Because it's really unclear to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manson1972

Yeah. But that is neither fear nor worry or disgust or any other negative term you want to use. It's simply a waste of time.

If you don't want to waste your time with a transwomen, because she has a penis, I think you should say something in your dating profile about what you are looking for in a date, something specific enough to warn of a transwomen who can pass but who still has a penis.

Without picking on any one post or person in particular, I have still not seen any convincing argument as to why someone who does not want to date a transgender person should not be open and forthright about that on a dating site, right in their profile where it can't be missed.

Well, it's pretty rare. I saw a number, less than half of 1% or has it changed?

I wouldnt want to date a Flat Earther, or a Breatharian or Freegan, but it would be silly to put that in my profile.

But one doesnt have to be rude about it, or Freak out- just say "I dont think this wll work out, sorry."

Where did I say they were? No, my own personal view is that people are attracted to what they're attracted to. Just don't be a dick about it. (Like don't say something like, "Eeew, you're a tranny? Gross!" Or whatever.)

If you don't want to waste your time with a transwomen, because she has a penis, I think you should say something in your dating profile about what you are looking for in a date, something specific enough to warn of a transwomen who can pass but who still has a penis.

You are right. And I've already agreed that is the correct course of action for me to take. The subtle undertones of being "anti-trans" for doing that though are what are bothering me now.

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