Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

well only because some fail, it is not impossible as we know. second, I see your points and argumentation, but I do not believe it. it is logic, sure, but the logic is based on the fact that it is impossible while alive, which we do not know, or rather know to be unlikely in canon.
I'd say it is possible, though due to sentients minds being full with crap it is hard to empty the mind and be one with the Force while alive. basically it is easy, but as yoda said: unlearn what you have learned; do or do not, there is no try. people are too filled with thoughts and feelings and all to not be distracted by them. yet still it is possible and the ideal goal. one shall not take the easy path and say "ah it is too hard, lets wait for death". hardly the message of star wars. besides, death is just the door to the next life maybe
so your logic would go against movies, against the prophecy of the choosen one and all else that is the core of SW

still interesting thoughts there. I can see a forcecult or forceuser belief just that and go dark in order to have all be one with the force by mass slaughter.. a perfect guide on how to become a Sith or as Kreia would say: "Lets kill the Force before it kills us!"

But that's not possible. the Force is everything, it is life and death and creation and destruction, both eternal circles and parts of it and thus death alone can not be perfect balance. it needs life and death both. so your attempt is onesided. Only Sith deal in absolutes

See you posted while I was editing, so note the new bit about what the purpose of placing the Je'daii on Tython may have been, and how the Celestials may have felt, in a galaxy of Darkness, personal vanity was not what they had intended.

After all, the Son and Daughter aren't balanced on their own, only when together, so in a galaxy ruled by the Rakata, the Je'daii may have been remiss in what the Kwa put them on Tython to protect.

Although, ironically, I'm actually starting to wonder if one of Daegan Lok's disciples might develop the plague that wipes out the Rakata -- irony of ironies if the bastion of Light was the birthplace of the destruction that wiped out the dark empire (and an easy way to save Tython and end the story of DOTJ).

I know where you are headed with this, but I disagree. The point here you make is, that the galaxy needed servants of the light to fight the darkness that already existed. So to speak, the Tythonian Forceusers needed not to follow balance but imbalance to counter the already out of balance Force that has swung the pendulum into darkness.

I can follow this logic so far, but:

Tythonian Forceusers are not there to fight Darkness. That is what you miss here. They are there to wait till darkness destroyed itself. Only then will they emerge and in their own balanced nirvana live true balance within each one of themselves. So the Kwa/Celestials created Tython as a safe haven to sit out the chaos and spread out in its aftermath. Tython is an ark! a paradise shut off from the rest of the dark world surrounding it.

But as it is history, the Tython Forceusers could not all manage the balance and some took to extremes of light and darkness. Wars erupted and they exiled those.. until the one war to change it all. As you note, when Tythonians become more Jedi than Je'dai, they abandon darkness in favor of light to counter darkness. That is how the utopian order split into two sides of Ying and Yang battling for control eternally.

But was this meant to happen? I doubt it.

Light is creation, Darkness is destruction (as per Mortis). So the creation of monsters is basically a Light Side act with dark side consequences f.e.
Whenever a Jedi kills in selfdefense or defense of others.. he uses the dark side. Every kill is dark side, but you do not fall to it every time you do it.

So basically, in fighting evil, in destroying it actively they are creating the very thing they fight within themselves. As the Jedi did in the Clone Wars, which lead to their fall! They fought, lead armies and betrayed their being a Jedi thus.

Wars do not make one great. A Warrior a Jedi is not!

Yoda learned from these errors. Jedi are not there to fight the darkness, but to keep it in check, to help and rebuild. Not to destroy.

Which is why Jaina's Jedi Council sanctioned killing of Jacen Solo was a dark side act! One with the Force, she'd have noticed him trying to save lifes, trying to return maybe.. or even trying to sense that Jacen Solo actually used both sides, light and dark! even if most people did only notice or remember the dark parts. And yeah he was crazy sometimes, but not always.
Still I see him as more a Darth paxis than caedus.. a harmonic Sith who did evil, but in balance, not evil out of balance. Much as Mortis father uses both sides to balance his kids.

Cetero censeo Jedi are not meant to fight/destroy anything. In doing so, trying, they fail their purpose. ROTJ showed us Darkness destroys itself... Sith killed Sith (Vader killing the Emperor!) which the lightsider Luke merely helping, NOT fighting throwing his saber away, watching. He only helped the darkness to destroy itself. the core message of ROTJ I often feel nobody but me got.. well few do.

sorry lost the link to the TOR post.. if I find it I will post it! Cronal

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Would appreciate it

The thing here is multiple points to consider about the Tythonian Kwa. Just because we have one there doesn't mean he represents the entire species. He could very well be from a splinter faction devoted to setting things up for his masters. Speculation here but thats what I think that after the decimation of the Kwa that a few of their kind were taken onto the Tho Yor and told to set Tython up a bit for a grand plan set by the Architects. Might be reading too much into it but A'nang calls himself the last of the TYTHONIAN Kwa. He doesn't say last of the Kwa, just the last of the ones on Tython. Kind of suggests that he differs from the rest of his kind on some level. But again, I might be reading too much into that comment. Also, another elder race point is in the rumour of a Hypergate located on Tython... and Hypergates aren't Kwa technology but in fact Gree tech. Makes me wonder if we might see some Gree in the future...

Also, the two sources for recent Kwa stuff is one that Zor mentioned being Book of Sith but the other source is the Essential Atlas where its said that the Infinity Gates is based on Celestial principles. Adds an interesting element when the Infinity Gates that created 'unnatural voids' were actually made from Celestial designs. Makes one wonder if it was stolen or simply the technology was being abused in the Kwa's reign. My own view is that the those Kwa not turned into Kwi by the Spirits were sent onboard the Tho Yor to ensure the Celestials plan on Tython. But thats just my speculation there. Hopefully, we learn more in the next issue about the Kwa Holocron.

Lots of speculation on my part there but thats how I would like to see what happened.

Might be reading too much into it but A'nang calls himself the last of the TYTHONIAN Kwa.

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That reminds me of another thought I had yesterday about how, despite Talzin claiming the purpose of Dathomir was to exist in balance with the twin deities, the reality is that its civilizations has always ended up dark, not balanced.

So was Tython simply "another attempt" to create a perfect society after Dathomir had failed, or was the idea for the Dark Kwa to live on Dathomir, and the Light Kwa to live on Tython, like the polarization of the Son and Daughter, or those sent to Bogan and Ashla? (Which would tie back into my suggestion of Tython's "purpose" being as a refuge for the Light in a galaxy dominated by Darkness).

Of course, either way, the Je'daii failed in the goal: if they were meant to remain light, they didn't; and if they were meant to create the perfect society, like Dathomir they didn't manage that either.

Might be reading too much into it but A'nang calls himself the last of the TYTHONIAN Kwa.

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That reminds me of another thought I had yesterday about how, despite Talzin claiming the purpose of Dathomir was to exist in balance with the twin deities, the reality is that its civilizations has always ended up dark, not balanced.

So was Tython simply "another attempt" to create a perfect society after Dathomir had failed, or was the idea for the Dark Kwa to live on Dathomir, and the Light Kwa to live on Tython, like the polarization of the Son and Daughter, or those sent to Bogan and Ashla? (Which would tie back into my suggestion of Tython's "purpose" being as a refuge for the Light in a galaxy dominated by Darkness).

Of course, either way, the Je'daii failed in the goal: if they were meant to remain light, they didn't; and if they were meant to create the perfect society, like Dathomir they didn't manage that either.

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Hmmm but the Witches have always been divided into light and dark, havent they? The Nightsisters have just been more... active I suppose in fluff. But is that enough to say that Dathomir is out of balance? If anything, I would say it seems more balanced compared to say Korriban or others. Mind you, I suppose the EU has shifted on this issue since we see Shamans of Dathomir still present even in Dawn of the Jedi times.

My own piece of speculation on Tython is that the Celestials intended to create a legacy to ensure some form of balance in the Force took place and thus had the Tho Yor relocate the Je'daii ancestors. But this gets shattered by the Rakata and divisions amongst the Je'daii that causes them to splinter into strict light-side and dark-side teachings. Or maybe it was always bound to shatter. Balance can be a difficult thing to achieve.

Or was shattering it all part of the plan, to create the imbalance, and consequently necessitating the Celestials continued divine interference to "help" the lesser races get back to their former state of harmony?

They took a sledgehammer to the Kwa for disobeying them by sending the Rakata to crush them, so maybe they're manipulating the Rakata again on Tython... all to maintain their own place as the divine beings who the galaxy needs?

Or, in other words, were the Celestials the problem? Did they grow so convinced of their own righteousness that everytime a civilisation developed... they sent in the forces of destruction to smash it back into the ground again (or is that too much like a Mass Effect rip-off)?

you make them sound like bad gods who want to keep their place of reign... not what they are I think, not what they were intended to be. but possible nevertheless

considering Abeloth here, since your last post reminded me of her, the Bringer of Chaos that set the stage back to Zero... was Abeloth an unwanted byproduct of the Ones/Celestials, or rather one they wanted/needed as Abeloth herself claimed, that there needed to be a Mother/Chaos role opposing Father/Harmony. She was released and imprisoned multiple times in the past.. last time was when she was trapped in the Maw by Son and Daughter guiding the servant races appearing to work together.

If Abeloth is right, and evil people often use truth for their cause.. then you are right. If Abeloth lied, you are wrong, though why would she lie about that? To get people to do what she wants done.. but why would she want to recreate the celestial family if there had not been a Mother role naturally before her aspiring to become the Mother of Chaos?

PS: I could live with your interpretation and ideas Zorrixor... but only if the Celestials are not Gods and de facto just a superrace that got delusions of grandeur much like the Rakata. if they are Force beings and supernatural, they should be above that and not be evil god-esque.

Or was shattering it all part of the plan, to create the imbalance, and consequently necessitating the Celestials continued divine interference to "help" the lesser races get back to their former state of harmony?

They took a sledgehammer to the Kwa for disobeying them by sending the Rakata to crush them, so maybe they're manipulating the Rakata again on Tython... all to maintain their own place as the divine beings who the galaxy needs?

Or, in other words, were the Celestials the problem? Did they grow so convinced of their own righteousness that everytime a civilisation developed... they sent in the forces of destruction to smash it back into the ground again (or is that too much like a Mass Effect rip-off)?

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Oooh and interesting idea So, intentionally creating imbalance... hmmm. Sounds like a unique take on the thing. I don't think the Celestials are so benevolent myself and would prefer an alien take on them. I mean, beyond what happened to the Kwa, we also have the Sharu so scared of the Celestials that they turned themselves into primitives and drained their intelligence to avoid their wrath. And the Columi also stopped their explorations as well when they encountered the presence of the Celestials. Oh, and lets not forget that they punished the Killiks by removing them from Alderaan... true, there might be a valid reason for doing so since its suggested that the Killiks were going rampant and that the Celestials intervened after they began invading other worlds.

you make them sound like bad gods who want to keep their place of reign... not what they are I think, not what they were intended to be. but possible nevertheless

considering Abeloth here, since your last post reminded me of her, the Bringer of Chaos that set the stage back to Zero... was Abeloth an unwanted byproduct of the Ones/Celestials, or rather one they wanted/needed as Abeloth herself claimed, that there needed to be a Mother/Chaos role opposing Father/Harmony. She was released and imprisoned multiple times in the past.. last time was when she was trapped in the Maw by Son and Daughter guiding the servant races appearing to work together.

If Abeloth is right, and evil people often use truth for their cause.. then you are right. If Abeloth lied, you are wrong, though why would she lie about that? To get people to do what she wants done.. but why would she want to recreate the celestial family if there had not been a Mother role naturally before her aspiring to become the Mother of Chaos?

hmmm

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Mind you... if they were bad gods in the Force... then it might mean Kreia was right all along in KotOR 2! Doesn't she view the Force as a cruel insidious corrupt god and intended to eliminate it?

Cronal did Kreia mean the Celestials / the Force though or their abomination Abeloth. somehow learning of her and taking her for all Celestials?

thus if the Celestials are the Force, and thus are bad gods... then we got transdimensional noncorporeal superbeings that are allmighty threatening the GFFA...

someone call Waru.. his kin is kind and needs to safe us all!

Edit: thus.. the Sith were always right... the Jedi blindly serve and give up themselves to these superbeings... enslaving themselves to them in the belief that they are always right and godly... like any sect does. wipe them out, all of them!

though then the Sith would err in that destroying the Force Kreia-esque would be a solution... the Force exists separate from Celestials maybe and connects all beings... so they just need to take out the Celestials, not the Force! which Anakin helped to do in Mortis arc fulfilling his prophecy.

Zorrixor
on the other hand.. the way how Sith are supposed to "change" upon taking a Darth name... new powers, etc. new understanding... it is as if they are posessed and no longer themselves. Celestials taking direct control of Sith bodies anybody? incarnating into these bodies to do their evil deeds? So Sith start as Dark Jedi breakaways with ideals and seeing the truth.. but upon taking a Darth title... becoming a Sith.. they are lost to the dark Celestials taking them over before they can stop them or spread the truth about them!

Celestials thus control their Jedi slaves AND the breakaways before they can do harm in directly taking them over.. *mind racing*

Edit2: and if Abeloth counts as a proto-Celestial, even if not originally one but someone who became one... her powers of incarnating into beings... or directly remote controling people speaks for itself here. be it jedi madness, falanassi and others that she took over... oh my

Zorrixor
on the other hand.. the way how Sith are supposed to "change" upon taking a Darth name... new powers, etc. new understanding... it is as if they are posessed and no longer themselves. Celestials taking direct control of Sith bodies anybody? incarnating into these bodies to do their evil deeds? So Sith start as Dark Jedi breakaways with ideals and seeing the truth.. but upon taking a Darth title... becoming a Sith.. they are lost to the dark Celestials taking them over before they can stop them or spread the truth about them!

Celestials thus control their Jedi slaves AND the breakaways before they can do harm in directly taking them over.. *mind racing*

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If the Celestials are in control of both the Jedi and Sith, why do the Sith hate the Jedi?

Zorrixor
on the other hand.. the way how Sith are supposed to "change" upon taking a Darth name... new powers, etc. new understanding... it is as if they are posessed and no longer themselves. Celestials taking direct control of Sith bodies anybody? incarnating into these bodies to do their evil deeds? So Sith start as Dark Jedi breakaways with ideals and seeing the truth.. but upon taking a Darth title... becoming a Sith.. they are lost to the dark Celestials taking them over before they can stop them or spread the truth about them!

Celestials thus control their Jedi slaves AND the breakaways before they can do harm in directly taking them over.. *mind racing*

Click to expand...

If the Celestials are in control of both the Jedi and Sith, why do the Sith hate the Jedi?

Zorrixor
on the other hand.. the way how Sith are supposed to "change" upon taking a Darth name... new powers, etc. new understanding... it is as if they are posessed and no longer themselves. Celestials taking direct control of Sith bodies anybody? incarnating into these bodies to do their evil deeds? So Sith start as Dark Jedi breakaways with ideals and seeing the truth.. but upon taking a Darth title... becoming a Sith.. they are lost to the dark Celestials taking them over before they can stop them or spread the truth about them!

Celestials thus control their Jedi slaves AND the breakaways before they can do harm in directly taking them over.. *mind racing*

Click to expand...

If the Celestials are in control of both the Jedi and Sith, why do the Sith hate the Jedi?

Zorrixor
on the other hand.. the way how Sith are supposed to "change" upon taking a Darth name... new powers, etc. new understanding... it is as if they are posessed and no longer themselves. Celestials taking direct control of Sith bodies anybody? incarnating into these bodies to do their evil deeds? So Sith start as Dark Jedi breakaways with ideals and seeing the truth.. but upon taking a Darth title... becoming a Sith.. they are lost to the dark Celestials taking them over before they can stop them or spread the truth about them!

Celestials thus control their Jedi slaves AND the breakaways before they can do harm in directly taking them over.. *mind racing*

Click to expand...

If the Celestials are in control of both the Jedi and Sith, why do the Sith hate the Jedi?

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divide and conquer ?

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No need to conquer your own slaves.

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*sigh* look up the quote before you misinterpret it in latin original: divide et impera

Zorrixor
on the other hand.. the way how Sith are supposed to "change" upon taking a Darth name... new powers, etc. new understanding... it is as if they are posessed and no longer themselves. Celestials taking direct control of Sith bodies anybody? incarnating into these bodies to do their evil deeds? So Sith start as Dark Jedi breakaways with ideals and seeing the truth.. but upon taking a Darth title... becoming a Sith.. they are lost to the dark Celestials taking them over before they can stop them or spread the truth about them!

Celestials thus control their Jedi slaves AND the breakaways before they can do harm in directly taking them over.. *mind racing*

Click to expand...

If the Celestials are in control of both the Jedi and Sith, why do the Sith hate the Jedi?

Click to expand...

divide and conquer ?

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No need to conquer your own slaves.

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*sigh* look up the quote before you misinterpret it in latin original: divide et impera

means.. divide your enemy and have them fight each other so they do not turn against you and are occupied to not notice you are the true evil they should unite against rather than fighting each other... which basically is what Jedi and Sith need to do. Unite instead of fighting each other!

nothing to do with conquering as you said, though the common english translation of original latin is worse than the german one that is closer to the original "teile und hersche" which means more "divide and rule" rather than conquer.

PS: same tactic Palpatine used by creating fake threats to keep separatists and republic, or empire and rebellion, etc. at each others throats to rule rather than have them turn on him