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On my note phone if I want to take a screenshot, I hold the power button and the Samsung Home button. Give that a try. Or, on my wife's note 10.1 first edition, it has a dedicated screenshot softkey that appears where your normal android home keys, etc appear.Reply

What's wrong with running one more benchmark and listing results for it? Sheesh... most of the time people complain about not having enough data, and now someone is upset for me running AnTuTu. Yes, I know companies have "cheated" on it in the past, but the latest revision seems about as valid in its reported scores as any of the other benchmarks. Now if it wouldn't crash half the time, that would be great. :-\Reply

The big problem is people that *only* (or primarily) use AnTuTu and rely on it as a major source of performance data. I'm not comparing AnTuTu scores with tons of devices; what I've done is provide Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro 8.4 vs. 10.1 scores, mostly to show what happens when the CPU in the 10.1 hits 1.8-1.9 GHz. It's not "cheating" to do that either -- it's just that the JavaScript tests mostly don't go above 1.2-1.3GHz for whatever reason. Octane and many other benchmarks hit higher clocks, but Sunspider and Kraken specifically do not. It's probably an architectural+governor thing, where the active threads bounce around the cores of the Exynos enough that they don't trigger higher clocks.

Don't worry -- we're not suddenly changing stances on Geekbench, AnTuTu, etc. but given the odd clocks I was seeing with the 10.1 I wanted to check a few more data points. Hopefully that clarifies things? It was Brian after all that used AnTuTu to test for cheating (among other things).Reply

The reason for the CPU clock staying low is because the subtests in Sunspider and AnTuTu only take a few milliseconds (Anand showed this in graphs a while back). That means there is not enough time to boost the frequency to the maximum (this takes some time). Longer running benchmarks like Geekbench are fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the governor will soon start to recognize these microbenchmarks by their repeated bursty behaviour rather than by their name...

Of course the AnTuTu and Javascript benchmarks suffer from many other issues, such as not using geomean to calculate the average (making it easy to cheat by speeding up just one subtest) and using tiny unrepresentative micro benchmarks far simpler than even Dhrystone.

Also it would be nice to see a bit more detail about the first fully working big/little octa core with GTS enabled. Previously AnandTech has been quite negative about the power consumption of Cortex-A15, and now it looks the 5420 beats Krait on power efficiency while having identical performance...Reply

You cannot disregard the result produced by something just because the load generated by the benchmark comes in very short burst, that is the _typical_ workload faced by these kind of devices.

The result in Geekbench give you some hint how the device would handle HPC-workloads, it give you very limited information about how well it handles mobile apps. Another problem with Geekbench is that it runs almost entirely out of L1$. 97% of the memory accesses where reported as L1-hits on a Sandy Bridge CPU (32kB L1D$). Not even mobile apps has such a small working set.

big.LITTLE is always at a disadvantage vs one single core in bursty workloads as the frequency transition latency is relatively high when switching CPU-cores. Low P-state switching time probably explains why BayTrail "feels" a lot faster than what the benchmarks like Geekbench suggest. BayTrail has a P-state latency of 10µs while ARM SoCs (without big.LITTLE) seem to lie between 0.1ms - 1ms (according to the Linux device-tree information).Reply

What is claimed this is CPU performance at maximum frequency, not a latency test of bursty workloads. It would be interesting to see Anand's browsing test reporting both power and performance/latency results as it seems a reasonable test of actual use. However SunSpider is not like a real mobile workload.

The datasets for most of the benchmarks in Geekbench are actually quite large, into 20-30MBytes range. That certainly does not fit into the L2 on any SoC I know, let alone on L1. So I suggest that Geekbench gives a far better idea of mobile performance than a benchmark that only measures the set of JIT optimization tricks to get a good SunSpider score.

Intel doesn't have magic that makes frequency scaling 10-100 times faster - PLLs and voltage regulators all use the same physics (until recently Intel was using the same industry-standard voltage regulators as everybody else). The issue is one of software, the default governor is not recognizing repeated patterns of bursty behaviour and keeping clocks high for longer when necessary. Intel avoids the Linux governor issues by using a separate microcontroller. I have no doubt that it has been well tuned to the kind of bursty behaviour that SunSpider exhibits.Reply

So you are suggesting that the performance counters in Sandy Bridge is reporting the wrong thing when it reports 97% L1D$-hit rate in Geekbench? They seem to work quite well on "real" programs.

The performance counters also suggest that Geekbench contains trivial to predict branches, while program developed with dynamic languages and/or OOP languages usually contains a lot of indirect and even conditional indirect calls that is quite hard to predict. Only the most advanced CPU-designs keep history on conditional indirect calls, so a varying branch target on a indirect call will always result in a branch-prediction miss on mobile CPUs.

The sampling frequency of CPU-load and the aggressiveness the Linux kernel switches P-state is based on the reported P-state switch latency. All modern Intel CPUs report a switching latency of 10µs while I haven't seem any ARM SoC report anything lower than 0.1ms. The _real_ effect of this is that Intel platforms will react about ten times as fast to a sudden burst in CPU-load when running Linux-kernel.Reply

SPEC2006 has ~96% average L1D hit rate, so do you also claim SPEC has a small working set and runs almost entirely out of L1? The issue is not about the correctness of the performance counters but your interpretation of them. The fact that modern CPUs can run at multiple GHz despite DRAM internally running at ~50MHz still is precisely because caches and branch predictors work pretty well.

C++ and GUI code typically only has a limited number of distinct targets, which are easy to predict on modern mobile CPUs (pretty much any ARM CPU since Cortex-A8 has had indirect predictors, and since A15 they support multiple targets). I've never seen conditional indirect calls being emitted by compilers, so I can imagine some CPUs may ignore this case, but it's not in any way hard to predict. The conditional indirect branches you do get in real code are conditional return (trivial to predict) and switch statements on some ARM compilers.

Well if there is such a large difference then there must be a bug - I did once glance over the Samsung cpufreq drivers and they seemed quite a mess. It is essential to sample activity at a high resolution, if you sample at Nx slower rate then you do indeed react N times slower to a burst of activity - irrespectively of how fast the actual frequency/voltage scaling is done.Reply

It's not clear if all 10.1 Note 2014 come with 3GB, or just the 32GB models, but I'm going to go with 3GB (and hopefully that's correct, considering the cost increase for the Note). I had the Samsung specs pages open when putting together that table, and unfortunately they didn't list RAM on the 10.1 16GB I was looking at. Weird.Reply

" If you want another option, the Kindle Fire HDX 7” ($200) and Kindle Fire HDX 8.9” ($379) pack similar performance with their Snapdragon 800 SoCs, but the lack of Google Play Services is a pretty massive drawback in my book."

For many of us that's actually the Kindle line's largest advantage. Android and a good chunk of its app ecosystem, without compromising our privacy and exposing ourselves to all the malware. Plus we got these specs six months ago with the HDX line, and for a lower price in a better package.Reply

Have you actually read their privacy policies and compared? Or taken a look at their profit models? There is a significant difference between the two for their approaches to privacy.

And no, if I really care to get an app like that I can get it from a third party market if I must. There are some that mirror the Play store. But that said, there are very few needs that are not met via apps already available in the Amazon store.Reply

So you're saying that Amazon has no record of you in their database whatsoever OR that they don't track your browsing history through their Silk browser, using Amazon's own servers, & never target (ads/promos) you based on your buying/browsing history ?

I'd say you're deluding yourself if you think that Yahoo, twitter, FB, bing or even Amazon are any different than Google when it comes to tracking their users or targeting them with specific ads/promos based on their (recorded) history ):Reply

"1) Amazon is not in the business of selling a user to a third party, and in fact has strict internal policies for data use."

You could have fooled me with all of those 3rd party resellers using their portal. :)Amazon does sell your information to third parties, they just do it using a slightly different model than Google.Reply

They actually do not. Create your own reseller via Amazon, anyone can do it. There are no options to purchase information on users, only information on your own product performance. Please actually read the agreements or set up a merchant account(free) to see for yourself. I know its popular to dismiss Google, Facebook and others with "Well everyone else does it" but there are several companies that do not and it is not any part of their business model. Amazon is one. Apple is another (and I dislike Apple, but facts are facts).Reply

And you have definitive proof that Google sells your info to anyone else right ? AFAIK Google is known for targeted ads based on one's browsing history, through cookies which everyone else employs in the same way, or your gmail contents.

Now the NSA/FBI/CIA et al have access to each of these firm's servers & data center residing in the US but that's the only thing(or entity) that has unrestricted access to your data, as for the rest I don't believe that Google shares everything they have on me & it's not like I have anything to hide nor have I put sensitive/personal info in public domain to begin with !

The user tracking you're alluding to is done the same way whichever firm you look at, the sharing of sensitive or personal info to non govt organizations is hard for me to believe because only FB does it, again AFAIK, & there's literally no proof of Google doing it in the manner what you've suggested.Reply

Given how well Amazon has done in the market I don't know that its 'most' actually. Some certainly do. Perhaps even many. But the Kindle devices are very large players in the space implying that for many it is not an issue.

And again, better hardware, cheaper price, better security, better privacy, can sideload anything you need that isn't in the store.Reply

Better hardware? Or similar hardware? Better security? Doubtful -- different, yes, but not inherently better. Better privacy, perhaps. Sideloading is an option for all Android devices, so that's not really in the cards. Basically, it's as I said: if you can live without Google Play Services they're good devices.Reply

Similar but Samsung is six months late and just prior to a new generation that will be coming later this summer. Furthermore they are more expensive with no significant improvements over the older hardware. And I will say 'better' because of build quality, the KF8.9 construction quality is excellent, something I have yet to see in any Samsung phone or tablet.

The security of a curated app store is inherently better than the free for all that is Play services. I did not say that sideloading did not exist on others, only that if there is a must have app, you can get it on the Fire via sideloading if you need to.

And yes, if you need Google Play a KF is not a good device for you. But many people can live without it, as demonstrated by the KF marketshare.Reply

I'm like many in that I have purchased a number of apps via the Google Play Store over the past few years, which means shifting away from it I would lose over $100 worth of software. I suppose if I had started with the Amazon store I'd be in the reverse situation. I haven't spent time with the Kindle so I can't really say whether build quality is better, but I have no complaints with the Galaxy Pro offerings. Sure, the faux-leather plastic backing isn't the best thing ever, but it felt fine to hold and use on a regular basis.Reply

Jarred - That is the same issue with anyone who has bought into any ecosystem. Its a valid concern but not one specific to the Kindle. More valid would be that their app selection is significantly smaller, and versions are often out of date (a problem shared by the WP ecosystem). But concerns about switching apply to everyone in every ecosystem equally and are not platform specific. I'd argue that its less of an issue for Android users going to Kindle (and vice versa) since most of the apps can at least be sideloaded or installed via third party marketplace.Reply

$100 would be the price of the software. Not the worth of it. Some software can be free, yet insanely valuable. Some companies would easily pay hundred dollars per each linux-installation if they had no other choice, but get them free, because they are worth way more than $100 to their business.

Value you get from software is unique to everyone of us and fluctuates over time and is not constant. Value of a flashlight app might be high when you are strolling on a dark beach and forgot your flashlight home (you would easily pay a dollar if no free versions existed), but during a bright summer day on a baseball court you wouldn't pay a penny for such app.

Are there a lot of apps that are actually worth a lot to you and you couldn't get to an amazon device? What is the total cost of reacquiring them?

In the end, we are not rational customers. We count things "we lose" in terms of actual dollars even if in practise none of it would matter at all just because we think it's ours. Psychological research suggest that people hate giving up more than getting new stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effectReply

The drawback of the Android store is an issue but on basically every other metric they are better.Also, Reflex, even if Amazon is not as cavalier about privacy as Google, people are right that you are a bit too trusting. Their TOS isnt necessairly 100% honest/transparent.Reply

While it is true that Amazon could be lying, as could any company's TOS and privacy policy, that would be legally actionable and on that basis you simply cannot trust anyone anywhere and should just unplug from the internet. Companies can and are sued for violating TOS/Privacy Policies, as LinkedIn recently found out and as Facebook is finding out in Europe.

Yes, Amazon could be lying to us all. But that is no different than anyone else, and if you find out that they are, its time to retain an attorney and start a class action.Reply

Wow...I am not Google fan, but you are extremely ignorant if you think Amazon is leaving tens of millions of dollars a year on the table by not selling advertisers the habits of Kindle users. How do you think they make more of their money on Kindle? It is not a huge profit margin device. And all those free apps? Howe do you think those are paid for? The kindness of strangers?

Amazon's MAIN business model this to sell things to you. That doesn't mean they don't have a second business model with the Kindle of selling YOU to advertisers. They do.Reply

Ever tried to sell a year or two old Android device? iOS? There's a night and day difference and I use both platforms equally. I upgraded to the 5s and Note 3 last fall. Sold the Note 1 (a pair) for $135. The almost three year old iPhone 4s went for $345 locally on Craigslist. Something to be said for resale and has nothing to do with 'AppleTards' :rolleyes:Reply

True, Apple devices sell for more on the 2nd market. But considering that they also cost usually 600€ or more (I remember a time when non-contract iPhones were 800€), you also pay a lot more up front. I've paid 500€ for a Galaxy S2 because I imported it from the UK and got it as one of the first in Europe. I ended up selling it for 180€ 18 months later. An iPhone would have cost me about the same (320€, taking the upfront price and subtracting the resell price). But that is a rubbish deal either way. I'm not going to spend more than 350€ for a phone these days. Resell value or not. And I also know a lot of people who have rubbish iPhones (mostly 4 and 4s) that keep rebooting randomly, have bad battery life, weird issues. They can't resell those for more than 50€. And they are all out of warranty of course. So really, you are making an anecdotal argument, that will only be true for some people and for a lot of others it won't.Reply

See my post below - just checked what the iPad 4 and the nexus 7 2013 would command on amazon and in both cases it was 65% of the MSRP. It makes sense that apple products from three years ago command more than android products from three years ago bc all apple products were better then but they aren't anymore so expect to see the resale values gap closing. There is still some downward pressure on the resale value of Android (and Windows) products bc there are more models and more devices period.

Also anyone who would pay $350 for an iPhone 4 is just stupid, I'm sorry. I get platform dedication blah blah blah but when you could have a new nexus 5 for the same price it's time to let go of brand allegiance. Reply

Btw I just went and checked amazon and either your price aren't representative or you're lying. Both devices on there are going for about $200 used (assuming the iPhone didn't have like 64 GB storage while the note had 16 or something). NEW iPhone 4s were going for $350. Nice try LOL. Here it is for everyone to see:

and RAM. RAM dictates how long the device will be servicable and recieve updates. Apple's ipad line is gimped by their 1GB of RAM. They did it on purpose. 2 years from now, the device will start going slow because apple's 2014-2015 devices will all have 2GB or even 4GB of ram, which in turn, makes app developers use more of it. My ipad air's keyboard is stupidly slow to react to typing thanks to its horrible memory bandwidth on a almost 3 MP screen.Reply

May wanna get it checked out. 7.1 made MASSIVE leaps forward with a 'brand new' rewrite of OS7. I've got three Airs and four iPad 4s. All are incredibly responsive, no crashing and fast as hell (we run an audio/video production company. Reply

Well then you are in the minority bc the three ipad air /retina ipad minis in my house regularly crash, a couple times a week, usually in safari. They also randomly reboot. I've teased my family about it bc my $230 nexus 7 (2013) is more reliable than their $400+ ipads. I've also sat them down next to each other and the screen and responsiveness of the nexus 7 matches the ipads despite being so much cheaper.

I think the low amount of RAM in the ipads is contributing to the crashing. When I had an iPhone I was limited to eight tabs in safari which I assumed was bc it didn't have the internal memory to handle more. I've heard that the new ios update fixes the crashing and rebooting problem (which we know is real btw bc apple copped to it and claimed to be fixing it).

And the person who was claiming that all apple products have better resale value - that was true in the apple's edge is eroding. Three years ago apple products were objectively ahead of Android products so, fast fwd a few years to last year or this year when you're reselling them, and you see that apple products command a higher amount of money. But if you're talking about products released a year ago, Apple was no longer decisively the best phone or tablet manufacturer, so the gap has started to close. I just compared the price a used nexus 7 2013 and a used ipad 4 were going for on amazon and they were both going for around 65% of their original price. Reply

I lack the hardware to properly see whether this is Pentile or not... I hope to have the necessary tools "soon". As I noted, the pixels on these are so small that I'm not sure the arrangement really matters. I can literally press my nose against the tablets and I still couldn't say with certainty whether they're RGB stripe or Pentile. If I need a microscope to say what type of arrangement they use, does it really matter in the real world?Reply

If you need a microscope to tell the difference it doesn't matter in the real world :-) That may not be true for everyone.

My problem with Pentile is that lines looked blurry and caused eyestrain (headaches after a few minutes of use) because vertical/horizontal lines weren't 'straight' without RGB striping. This can be somewhat mitigated by different subpixel arrangements, but doesn't go away entirely. If these are pentile, this would probably be an issue for me at this resolution and screensize.

"For example, human vision systems are able to determine whether two lines are aligned extremely well, with a resolution around two arcseconds. This translates into an effective 1800 PPD. For reference, a 5” display with a 2560x1440 resolution would only have 123 PPD."Reply

But it does for you? WTF are you doing with your tablet to need a microscope to see the 'pixel arrangement'? Other than 'fatigue'....if that's real or not, up for debate, these HiDPI displays are beyond the point of 'mattering' to anyone other than the most anal of display dorksReply

Your argument seems incredibly ridiculous.By your definition we would need like 32K resolutions on a 5" screen for our vision to stop being bothered by pen tile!!I could bet a house that your headache isn't caused by freaking micro missalingment of lines on a 380ppi screen.I use my Note 3 for hours at a time and wow, I don't have headaches. It must be a natural phenomenon!How about you try things like lowering the brightness?? Lol.

Right, so after gutting 1/3 effective PPI with pentile, how much would these Note Pros left? 9000 or number so high it doesn't matter like the Note 3 ? Nope, a measly 200 for the 10.1 and an absymal 150 for the 12.2. And we thought the first iPhone was bad at 160 by current standards, and now we don't even get AMOLED at all as a tradeoff for pentile?

Hey let's just give a free pass Samsung on gutting the most important aspect of mobile device, why the hell not? The Android PPI flip-floppers are funny: "lol Apple still stuck at 300 ppi" but "150 ppi on uber expensive 12.2 Pro? It doesn't matter because I can't see it"Reply

Well sorry but that's crazy.The Note 8.4 has 360ppi and I can assure you the sharpness looks exactly the same as on the LCD with the similar ppi.End of discussion.As for the note 12.2..comparing it with the forst iPhone shows no one should take you seriously.

Do you have a laptop, or desktop?If so, tell me their respective pixel densitiesReply

Yes it matters to the people who use ipads and will never consider buying this tablet who are trying to avoid the cognitive dissonance of having bought an equally or more expensive device with fewer features. And possibly to one guy who gets headaches from penile. Reply

Table on the first page is cut off on the right, can't see the "o" from "Pro" (behind the pipeline links) and the [")] is behind the Crucial ad. :) It is fine when I make the window very narrow, so that all the side bars vanish.Reply

"I really can’t find any other direct competition in the Android market for the Samsung Pro 8.4 right now, so it's an easy recommendation."

LG G-Pad 8.3 !? ...and now easily found for $250 or less; or there's the Play Store edition with newer Android version. (Yes, I have the former and I'm using it now, so perhaps I am biased :-) Sure it is 'only' a 1920x1200 display in comparison to the Samsung 8.4, but I really like the LG added features versus what I've read in reviews of its Play Store edition. I only wish / hope the LG version updates to Android 4.3, or newer, eventually. I don't think I would like the Samsung's home/back button setup, either. I will close only by saying I like the LG enough that I have no desire to root/ROM it, which is saying something.Reply

Snapdragon 600 and 1080p means I don't really consider it "direct competition". Sorry if that wasn't clear. It's more like an alternative in the lines of the Nexus 7 -- different, good, but not all the same features.Reply

No one will sell me a Samsung 10.1 Note 2014 - This is why Apple wins. I want a Samsung 10.1 Note 2014 with Cellular. I drive to BestBuy and they try to sell me one with WiFi, no Cellular - but they have Apple. I go drive to a Verizon Store in NJ and they can order and ship one for me, but easier to order online. I order online at Verizon Wireless (since they are only ones offering cellular) and I fill out extra forms because my delivery address is different than home address. They say not a problem and call a 800 # after placing order to confirm shipping address; and I get an email saying the same. I call 800 #, am on hold for 20 minutes, get to a representative, on hold for another 5 minutes and they tell me they automatically cancelled my order and I cannot get it shipped to a different address online. I call a NY Verizon Wireless store and ask them whether they have it stock; they try to sell me an old 10.1 and then after clarifying, they tell me they don't have any in stock in NY and to go to NJ or order online.

After ~5 hours wasted trying to buy a Samsung 10.1 Note 2014, I think I will just order an iPad Air from Apple.com with AT&T data plan - and it looks like I can order with Amazon Prime too. I really didn't want to buy into the Apple ecosystem, but I'm now seeing the value of it... just being able to buy the product easily is eye-opening versus my Samsung/Verizon experience.Reply

I order online at Verizon Wireless (since they are only ones offering cellular) and I fill out extra forms because my delivery address is different than home address. They say not a problem and call a 800 # after placing order to confirm shipping address; and I get an email saying the same. I call 800 #, am on hold for 20 minutes, get to a representative, on hold for another 5 minutes and they tell me they automatically cancelled my order and I cannot get it shipped to a different address online.Reply

The disk performance benchmarks are not completely correct for the Dell Venue 8 Pro.

The disk performance numbers for the Venue 8 Pro are roughly doubled after the newest A05 BIOS, which enables eMMC HS200 by default. (HS200 could be enabled in earlier BIOSes, but was not enabled by default).

So the Venue 8 Pro should really be at the top of all of these charts, instead of at the bottom.

Good call. I read the charts and was thought that the results looked very low for the Venue 8 Pro, and then I did some searching and saw that there was also a "non-Pro" Android based Venue 8. If the #s reported in the charts are for the Android Venue 8, then they could very well be correct. Rather confusing naming on Dell's part.Reply

I assume you mean in comparison to Windows tablets bc you claiming that ios is better than android for productivity and that an iPad is less like a big phone would be a total joke. At least some Android tablets allow you to view more than one window at a time which is crucial for productivity, not to mention swipe keyboards as well as active digitizer to facilitate data entry. On top of that Android 's customizability allows you to set your tablet up in whatever way facilitates productivity for you which is guarantee is rarely a 4x5 grid of icons that you're stuck with on the iPad. Also not being able to access the file system is quite a drag for work purposes..... Need I go on?

And if you were referring to Windows tablets *slinks away in shame *Reply

Have to say, since the flood of Windows 8 Pro two in one's (laptop and tablet hybrid), these large tablets are irrelevent. Got a Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro and it literally blows the water out of any android tablet (and iPad) in performance and usability. Only negatives are price and size, but compared to a 10" regular tablet, seems like a good way to go. All the benefits of a tablet with the power and software of a regular PC.Reply

yes and no. Win8 apps are still a pretty poor selection, going from my Win8 surface pro to android is like night and day difference. For tablet use Win8's app selection needs to improve drastically (heck even winphone is noticeably more barren and many apps that are there lack feature parity compared to droid/apple). Desktop apps yes handy but no good in touch mode. Reply

Obviously, the only one with tunnel vision is YOU since you obviously haven't used a two in one before. Care to give give specifics instead of spouting dribble?

"I would still pick a high end Android tablet or even an iPad over any windows tablet wannabe."Why? Can you work in Microsoft Excel on your Android tablet or iPad? Play a REAL PC game instead of some silly mobile nonsense?

"The problem with windows tabs is that they aren't good TABLETS.Simple as that."WRONG. Using a windows Pro tab is just as easy/inituitive as any android/ipad tablet. Mine even comes with a QHD screen. Care you to give examples rather than talk out of your ass?

"And they surely aren't good for a laptop use case because the screen is too small.Simple as that."

You're talking out of your ass. Simple as that. My Yogo 2 pro is 13.3, only slightly smaller than the industry standard 14" ultrabook. Maybe a Surface 2 Pro is small, but it isn't a 2 in 1, is it? It's form factor is a tablet with an OPTIONAL keyboard, not a genuine hybrid like the Yogo 2 Pro or others from Dell/HP just now hitting the market in mass. Do you even know what you're arguing about?

"You obviously got tunnel vision ed by windows/pc so much that you just don't understand what a tablet is and how people use it."

Of course, especially since I own an iPad 4th gen, iPad mini, Galaxy Tab 8.4 and a Nexus 7. Obviously I don't understand these tablets that I own.

Oh wow.I call a huge BS there.The fact that you REALLY are suggesting an ultrabook to be used as a tablet says all I need to know about you.

Oh and that office question is even greater pile of sh!t.Of course I CAN do an excel document ..in fact I can do it even on the cheapest android Chinese knockoff, and I can do it for free.(Kingsoft office)Not to mention some of the many premium office apps on Android and IOS.Why on earth would I play a pc game on a tablet??Name me one such game you can play without a mouse and a keyboard!

Still, since you ask I in fact can point you to some of the highest grade pc games on a tablet - GTA San Andreas, Xcom Enemy unknown, Anomaly 2 (2013 pc release with absolutely unchanged mobile version)Reply

You call BS? The only one here who’s shown a complete lack of intelligence is YOU with your ignorant statements. EVERYONE sees this.Let’s start with your statement on Office:“Oh and that office question is even greater pile of sh!t.Of course I CAN do an excel document ..in fact I can do it even on the cheapest android Chinese knockoff, and I can do it for free.(Kingsoft office)”PLEASE tell me you know the difference between a stripped down and mobile android / IOS office editor compared to NATIVE office? You DO know the difference, do you? Name me ONE enterprise mobile application that even remotely compares in functionality to full fledged Office. You can’t possibly be that dumb? Not to mention, you expect me to believe you work in Excel building reports (like I do) on a dinky mobile knockoff? LOL!But the comedy keeps coming!“Why on earth would I play a pc game on a tablet??”LOL! Who’s forcing you to play PC games on a hybrid in tablet mode? Wouldn’t you use....say, LAPTOP mode? LOL! This is yet another example of your utter ignorance, you just don’t know what the hell you’re arguing about.

And FYI, even if you had a Surface 2 Pro, you can still plug in an Xbox 360 controller to play PC games, which the vast majority of games support. And further still, many genres are quite touch friendly and even better with a touch interface, like Adventure games.In my case, the Yoga 2 pro has a QHD (3200x1800) screen in which games look absolutely beautiful, even if games are running in regular HD. Also, Intel’s HD4400 blows away any mobile SOC GPU in pure raw performance.And LOL at you’re list! That’s all you can come up with? Everyone sees you’re an absolute idiot if you’re truly believe mobile games are comparable to the vast library of regular PC games that you can play on a hybrid, including the latest and greatest. San Adreas….LOL! How about GTA 4? I can play that rather well on my Yoga 2 Pro. How does that run on your ipad? LOL.Of course, all your comical statements are nothing but empty arguments because you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. How about you address my points which you’ve conveniently ignored? Here they are again:

"The problem with windows tabs is that they aren't good TABLETS.Simple as that."WRONG. Using a windows Pro tab is just as easy/inituitive as any android/ipad tablet. Mine even comes with a QHD screen. Care you to give examples rather than talk out of your ass?

"And they surely aren't good for a laptop use case because the screen is too small.Simple as that."

You're talking out of your ass. Simple as that. My Yogo 2 pro is 13.3, only slightly smaller than the industry standard 14" ultrabook. Maybe a Surface 2 Pro is small, but it isn't a 2 in 1, is it? It's form factor is a tablet with an OPTIONAL keyboard, not a genuine hybrid like the Yogo 2 Pro or others from Dell/HP just now hitting the market in mass. Do you even know what you're arguing about?Reply

Well that was a waste of time since you obviously lack the minimum nerve, decency and intellectual capacity to understand my points.The funniest thing, you actually CONFIRMED EVERY SINGLE OF MY POINTS AND SHOT YOUR SELF IN THE FOOT WITHOUT EVEN REALIZING IT.Yet you keep trolling utter prejudice and insulting like a little pgatetic basement butthurt you are .You don't deserve a further answer.

My points:

-you are talking a 13.3 inch, 1.4kg ultra book is a good thing to use as a tabletAnyone with a half sense sees how idiotic proposition this is.. but not you!

- if we actually take a usable tablet form windows (8-10" and a 500-700grams) and try to use it for your idiotic propositions of playing pc games, programing (lol) or ANY use that you can benefit from a laptop form factor..so we need to hook up a keyboard and a mouse to a 10" screen, put it on a table and squint onto it.Office, again only a professional who is living offa doc editing will have a real benefit in MSOffice ..and ypu thik those proffesionals will not therefore use a real laptop?!?!Average people that need to write something on their TABLETS will be more than served by the likes of Kingsoft office.You ever even used it or are you the one talking out of your ass!It can do spreadsheets, power point, pdf files, and more word and excel than anyone will ever need on a touchscreen.As that's what I am talking about from the start..understanding what a TABLET really is and what people are needing it for.And that is a causal, comfortable media consumption in something they can easily handle, hold in one hand and carry around in a purse or even a pocket.How retarded is to propose using a TABLET ( repeat that word into your head unlit it starts to dawn on you) for gaming with a keyboard and mouse, for professional document editing or writting on your office table?..Starting to sink into that tiny clouded mind of yours now??

And further proof of your prejudiced stupidity is that you you fail to realizethat the games I mentioned are in fact a pc games, and a great pc games at that.I only and merely answered to your callout because it technically was off.You lack a basic understanding and reading comprehension.And you waste other people's time!Reply

"Well that was a waste of time since you obviously lack the minimum nerve, decency and intellectual capacity to understand my points."

What points? All you've done is make blanket statements of YOUR OPINION with NOTHING to back it up with, NOT EVEN A SINGLE EXAMPLE as I've asked you to do countless times.

Now let's take a look at your LONELY opinion (again YOUR opinion NOT SHARED BY OTHERS) regarding hybrids:

"-you are talking a 13.3 inch, 1.4kg ultra book is a good thing to use as a tabletAnyone with a half sense sees how idiotic proposition this is.. but not you!"

Who's anyone? Are you that delusional? If you think "anyone with a half sense" would rather use an inferior, limited android/ipad over a full fledged hybrid than WHY IS THE HYBRID MARKET SO SUCCESSFUL??

Yoga 2 ProSony Vaio FlipDell XPS 12Acer Aspire S7Razer Bladeetc..

I guess the bigger question is, HAVE YOU USED ONE YOURSELF? Rather than continue to talk out of your ass?

The point is, people can use these devices as a tablet WHEN THEY WANT TO and a laptop WHEN THEY WANT TO. Is it that hard to understand or are you that plain stupid? You're opinion of "how a person should use a tablet" yada yada is the minority, and if you think otherwise please post in the Notebook section of Anandtech so we can all see just how narrow minded and deluded you are.

"- if we actually take a usable tablet form windows (8-10" and a 500-700grams) and try to use it for your idiotic propositions of playing pc games, programing (lol) or ANY use that you can benefit from a laptop form factor..so we need to hook up a keyboard and a mouse to a 10" screen, put it on a table and squint onto it."

Why are you hung up on the Surface 2 Pro? You have YET to truly point out this argument with hybrids. Do you even know which market the Surface 2 Pro is aimed at? Like other PC centric tablets and hybrids, it's aimed at people who need the versatility of a tablet and the power/software of a regular PC...usually professionals in their line of field....HENCE why it's given the "Pro" monikor. Understand?

"Office, again only a professional who is living offa doc editing will have a real benefit in MSOffice ..and ypu thik those proffesionals will not therefore use a real laptop?!?!Average people that need to write something on their TABLETS will be more than served by the likes of Kingsoft office.You ever even used it or are you the one talking out of your ass!It can do spreadsheets, power point, pdf files, and more word and excel than anyone will ever need on a touchscreen."

Again, you don't have a DAMN clue about who the Pro market is aimed at, or why it's even a large market to begin with. There is not a SINGLE office facsimile for android/ipad that offers the same level of versatility that a desktop application offers (not Kingsoft office that you ignorantly keep referring to), and PLENTY of people would prefer working out of a lower profile machine on the go rather than a full fledged laptop, hence why they're selling so well. Again, this is YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING the market and just forcing your OWN ignorant opinion. LOL!

"As that's what I am talking about from the start..understanding what a TABLET really is and what people are needing it for.And that is a causal, comfortable media consumption in something they can easily handle, hold in one hand and carry around in a purse or even a pocket."

Who the hell are YOU to determine for everyone how to "use a tablet" or what tablet to use, just because of what YOU think it should be? The people use 7" tablets are NOT the same people buying Windows 8 Pro tablets and hybrids. They aren't using these machines for simple media consumption to carry around in their purse like you do.

HOW RETARDED ARE YOU to not even understand that you CAN do gaming (PC gaming at that) on a tablet, WITH OR WITHOUT a keyboard/mouse (you can plug in a controller, and many games work well with touch interface)....and a 10" or 13" screen is more than good enough to game on...especially with a QHD display.

"Starting to sink into that tiny clouded mind of yours now??"

That's funny, coming from you. You are the one that's narrow minded and incapable of understanding the different market segments. Your statements have proven this through and through, and everyone sees it.

"And further proof of your prejudiced stupidity is that you you fail to realizethat the games I mentioned are in fact a pc games, and a great pc games at that.I only and merely answered to your callout because it technically was off.You lack a basic understanding and reading comprehension.And you waste other people's time!"

Again not addressing my point after exposing your flawed arguments. All you've done is mentioned mobile versions of games, not even recent, and somehow the fact that you can run the LATEST PC games on much more powerful hardware in a Windows 8 tablet/hybrid than that found in a dinky ipad/android SOC. To MANY people (and this clearly shows on this website), this is a MAJOR selling point for these devices. Your single minded, single voice OPINION means NOTHING.

Geez, this is by far the most ironic and sad discussion I ever had in my life.

Let md draw out the freaking obvious to you and end this. Do not expect me further answering you, nutcase:

HUNDREDS OF MILLION OF PEOPLE USE TABLETS.They buy and use them because they want a portable, light, manageable touch interactive devices for easy to use casual media consumption, social networking, intuitive entertainment for their kids, reading, and gaming.

The ridiculous fact screaming into your face is that compared to tablet market, hybrid ultra book market is miniscule!Hundred million people will buy an iPad this year.The whole hybrid market COMBINED will barely, if at all, reach 10 percent of that!Now ask yourself why exactly is that so, you lunatic!

What an absurd line of reasoning. The hybrid market is just now emerging, how the hell can you compare it to millions of EXISTING users in a tablet market that's been ongoing for YEARS?

That's basically the equivalent of comparing the early HDTV market to the larger regular TV market segment. Or touch phones to the much larger button phone market in the early days.

Of course, this is a line of understanding you've proven yourself countless times over and over, and yet again here, that you know NOTHING about.

Hybrid sales and market presence is increasing rapidly because current technology allows it to be so. Compare CES this year to last year, there are literally DOZENS of new high profile hybrid models and more being released every month. People are buying them, and the market is growing. Hell, you just need to read this damn site every now and then to understand that, especially their Surface 2 Pro review (not to mention, the huge number of users in the anandtech forums).

So please continue to pretend this market doesn't exist, like some kind of fanboy, and make statements that truly showcases your ignorance.Reply

"HUNDREDS OF MILLION OF PEOPLE USE TABLETS.They buy and use them because they want a portable, light, manageable touch interactive devices for easy to use casual media consumption, social networking, intuitive entertainment for their kids, reading, and gaming."

You just gave a list of general reasons people use a small profile tablet for. Now, do you understand what people who buy a PRO tablet or hybrid for? If you don't, then your presence in this discussion was absolutely a waste because you're too ignorant of basic principals and factors for the pro hybrid/tablet market. I outlined those reasons quite clearly above, yet you're not any closer to understanding. LOL.

Again....The people who use 7" tablets are NOT the same people buying Windows 8 Pro tablets and hybrids. They aren't using these machines for simple media consumption to carry around in their purse like you do. The point is, people can use these devices as a tablet WHEN THEY WANT TO and a laptop WHEN THEY WANT TO. Is it that hard to understand??Reply

Average tablet use case(in the overwhelming majority of the cases)..picking one up while sitting back on the couch after work, or laying down in bed before sleep, or after waking up.Checking the Internet, posting, commenting, watching YouTube, playing candy crush or Clash of Clans (heres a fun piece of info for you..that single game earned more than billion $ last year(!!)..and of course, you can't play it on windows at all, like hundreds of thousands of other casual touchscreen games)..and that is pretty much all people are using tablets for.

Overwhelming majority of people that buy tablets DO NOT NEED, do not care, or even know about things like special features of ms office, and they wouldn't ever trying to bother with playing a pc game, let alone trying to play it in such convoluted way.

And you call me narrow minded..damn.

The mere example alone that tablet gaming is a business of billions of dollars while gaming on laptops is an exotic activity (huge majority of gaming happens on consoles and desktop) ..that fact alone perfectly reflects just how beyond clueless you are in actual understanding of the market and products.Reply

"Overwhelming majority of people that buy tablets DO NOT NEED, do not care, or even know about things like special features of ms office, and they wouldn't ever trying to bother with playing a pc game, let alone trying to play it in such convoluted way."

What about the overwhelming majority of people that buy PRO tablets, knowing SPECIFICALLY it is installed with a desktop OS and equipped with PC hardware, costing nearly 2x - 3x as much as a regular tablet?

Not only are you narrow minded, but you are so bluntly stupid to understand different market segments. People who buy $299 tablets to sit back on their couch after work to play Candy Crush are not the people going to spend $1000 or more for a hybrid.

For the people that DO, you're making yourself a moron by commenting how they should or should not use their device. That's the point of a such a device isn't it....to use as a tablet WHEN THEY WANT and a laptop WHEN THEY WANT, otherwise they wouldn't have bought it wouldn't they?

And guess what, more and more people shelling out the extra cash to purchase hybrids because they function exceptionally well....it literally lets people HAVE their cake AND eat it too. The power of a full PC in the form factor of a tablet/ultrabook/tent/etc...

Why on earth would you force a $199/$299 casual audience into that segment? Because you're too ignorant to understand the different market segments and factors of each, and every time you make a post stating the same thing over and over again you show everyone how foolish you are.

LOL.

Now, back to these points that you keep running away from:

- Have you used a hybrid yourself?- Explain why the hybrid market is so successful with dozens of new models being introduced every month.- Explain the different market segments and the target for each- Give SPECIFICS (instead your ignorant "simple as that" exclamations) of why Windows 8 Pro hybrids are "POOR", in your own words.- Explain the rising popularity of hybrids right here @ anandtech.com and in general (personally, I think the trend is all ultrabooks will be hybrids as processes mature and prices continue to drop).Reply

Of course I DO UNDERSTAND that one can technically do more on a hybrid with windows than on a typical tablet.That was never the question..what I responded to was your claim that windows hybrids are making those tablets useless and obsolete.

And reality is completely defying that statement.People who need windows hybrids will buy windows hybrids, people who need tablets will keep buying Android tablets and iPads.First group are tiny minority and second group is huge majority. Reply

Average tablet use case(in the overwhelming majority of the cases)..picking one up while sitting back on the couch after work, or laying down in bed before sleep, or after waking up.Checking the Internet, posting, commenting, watching YouTube, playing candy crush or Clash of Clans (heres a fun piece of info for you..that single game earned more than billion $ last year(!!)..and of course, you can't play it on windows at all, like hundreds of thousands of other casual touchscreen games)..and that is pretty much all people are using tablets for.

Overwhelming majority of people that buy tablets DO NOT NEED, do not care, or even know about things like special features of ms office, and they wouldn't ever trying to bother with playing a pc game, let alone trying to play it in such convoluted way.

And you call me narrow minded..damn.

The mere example alone that tablet gaming is a business of billions of dollars while gaming on laptops is an exotic activity (huge majority of gaming happens on consoles and desktop) ..that fact alone perfectly reflects just how beyond clueless you are in actual understanding of the market and products.Reply

It's true the Yogo 2 Pro is in an entirely different segment/market than an Ipad or Android tablet, but I found I'm using this device far more often than any of my other tablets. The screen is 13.3 but a beautiful QHD display (higher than Retina), very responsive and incredibly fast. The major apps are all on Windows 8 anyways, though I don't care for the App store that much. I can use it as a tablet or PC with a flip of the backside, and I can run all my business software AND play some decent PC games as well.

It literally made by tablet collection (and I love buying the newest tablets) obsolete.Reply

I think the lg g pad 8.3 makes a good lower cost competitor to the tab pro 8.4. It's sporting previous gen snapdragon soc but 2gb ram and basically the same dimensions and weight. I personally don't think the extra cost of the tab is worth it over the g pad.Reply

Have you owned a G Pad? I recently sold mine and switched to the Tab Pro 8.4. You might want to have a look at the XDA forum section for it. Despite an amazing aluminum body, the screen on the G Pad is terrible. I paid $350 for it (got it before LG heavily discounted it and then released the google play edition). It is hands down the dimmest tablet screen I have ever used. I was lucky enough not to get one of the "crappy" ones (of which there are apparently many), I didn't have the blue line of doom on the screen or excessive light bleed around the edges (Both of which are very common). Still, even at 100% brightness, it is dimmer than a Nexus 7 or a tab pro at 50%. Impossible to use in sunlight (I took it on vacation). Also the battery life was not good. There is a reason that LG dropped the tablet price by $100 within a month of it's release. Too bad because it has a lot of other amazing things going for it. The screen is the deal breaker though. So yes, the extra cost makes it a big difference... Plus LG is discontinuing the $250 version in favor of the $350 google play edition. A $50 difference for a vastly better screen, faster SOC and better battery? AbolutelyReply

I got my Galaxy Note 10.1 2014 edition on special for $400 back in Jan (also w/ a bunch of goodies.. Google store credit, Samsung store credit, Dropbox, evernote pro, a bunch of other stuff). I was kinda bummed that shortly after I purchased it that the Note Pros came out, but other than 10" vs 12" it's hard to tell what exactly is different between them. I remember coming to the conclusion that the Pro model adds some features for businesses / BYOD, notably for compliance and security.

Does it just come down to Note 10.1 2014 being 10" and Note Pro 12 being 12"? Doesn't seem worth the $300 price premium. I also just ran the Sunspider benchmark on my Note 2014 and consistently get scores around 500ms.Reply

I am wondering, why aren't you comparing these Pro tablets to something with Windows, just to other android tablets and the iPad? I guess if someone is trying to use a tablet to do work the Surface Pro 2, Surface 2 and Dell Venue Pro 8 would be on his radar as well.Some of the benchmarks are cross platform (all browser based ones) and you can run an emulator for android and run the benchmarks on x86 windows.Come on guys, be a bit more creative with the reviews. Reply

You DO realize Window's Surface/Yog/da/HP 2 in 1, et al run on the third or fourth core 'i' chips right? And these tabs....Sammy, Apple, LG, etc are run on ARM SoCs correct? Huge discrepancy in performance measurement. Should be assumed as they've run BayTrail scores in interviews, conducted the 'Surface' interviews...and a quick peak in 'search' you'll be able to derive the performance differences yourself. They're not competitors right now. Intel is many times more powerful as are their iGPUs being used in the laptop form factor. Weight is a big differentiator as well. A pound or three? Keyboard (physical) or not? You get the idea. While the walls are closing in, totally different architecturesReply

Yes, I know they are different architectures but they serve the same purpose. They all have touch screens, web browsers and run applications and games. It would be interesting to see how they compare, even if it is in just a few of the benchmarks that can be run on all of the devices. Size, weight and battery life differ but I might be willing to sacrifice some portability for a couple of times more performance. And bay trail tablets should be pretty similar in performance, size/weight and battery life to arm ones.I can probably dig through different reviews and compare numbers but that is too much work, it is much better to just include them in the charts.Reply

Will not load Words with Friends on Pro 10.1. I spent 15 minutes with two people on this and the problem could not be resolved. I found a review (5 stars on 5 stars) on the pre-Pro version that laments the same problem.Reply

The Samsung Galaxy Tab is one of the most talked about new tablet devices to hit the market. With more and more companies joining the gold rush following the release of the iPad, Samsung has included many features which makes it stand out from the rest. Reply

If your not tied to a ecosystem, the director competitor is iPad mini2, which is cheaper and better built quality. I'm trying to choose between the two.. almost wanting to try android for a change. Maybe the droid is more educational for the son. Great article I would missed the Samsung tab all together.Reply

Isn't the solution to the whole "what does and doesn't constitute cheating" dilemma to always measure power consumption alongside performance so that whenever an OEM "cheats" by boosting the clock speed, they just shoot themselves in the foot by making the power consumption number look correspondingly worse.Reply

Having finished the review just now, wanted to say that I really liked your style. It's refreshing to see such a subjective take of tablets on Anandtech. And you are mentioning the right "it's personal preference" things which sometimes I think get lost here. Looking forward to more tablet reviews by you! :-)Reply

I got my Galaxy Note 10.1 2014 edition on special for $400 back in Jan (also w/ a bunch of goodies.. Google store credit, Samsung store credit, Dropbox, evernote pro, a bunch of other stuff). I was kinda bummed that shortly after I purchased it that the Note Pros came out, but other than 10" vs 12" it's hard to tell what exactly is different between them. I remember coming to the conclusion that the Pro model adds some features for businesses / BYOD, notably for compliance and security.

Does it just come down to Note 10.1 2014 being 10" and Note Pro 12 being 12"? Doesn't seem worth the $300 price premium. I also just ran the Sunspider benchmark on my Note 2014 and consistently get scores around 500ms.Reply

"That’s sort of the way of Android though – it can be buttery smooth and then suddenly it’s not." What an idiot. My Nexus 5 and Nexus 7 are ALWAYS buttery smooth. The Nexus 7 sometimes lags when I use a WebKit browser but I use Chrome Beta so I'm fine. They are definitely smoother than my iPad 4 and Surface RT. Reply

I like Android but it's almost impossible to get a device running real, pure Android. Google doesn't care and the Nexus 10 is outdated now in terms of size and weight so the laggy Touchwiz-ridden Samsung tablets are what we're left with when it comes to large upper-range Android tablets.Reply

Understand that there are people quite happy with the layout Samsung is using and are buying Samsung specifically for this reason and for sd-card slot.

This is my only alternative. Others have choices, Asus, Sony, etc. I don't.In fact, I own an Asus tablet and the only major drawback for me are the software buttons. Between notification and navigation bar, in landscape, there isn't much screen left. I won't ever understand why every tech site is so demanding in this regard. Maybe because Google can be quite persuasive, but please again, don't ruin my only option.Reply