One of my favorite articles on Beyond the Moons is Specialty Priests of Celestian. I created one of my 2e characters based on this article. It's interesting to note as well that this article suggests that specialty priests be multiclassed as cleric/psionicist.

I was considering how specialty priests of Celestian might work in 4e. I suspect you may have to re-examine the whole process. As much as I like the idea of a hybrid/multiclassed cleric/psion, it occurs to me that a hybrid/multiclassed cleric/cosmic sorcerer would work better thematically.

What do you guys think? Is that the best way to go? Is there a better option than a cleric? And what sort of paragon path would you go with?

in my opinion, multiclassing in 4th edition, in any currently published form, sucks. a lot. it sucks slightly less if you use the multiclassing feats, but even if you use them it still sucks. and i can't recommend it to anyone.

so actually, my personal suggestion, assuming we don't go with the imo superior method of houseruling (either adding new powers to be chosen by the specialty priest, or creating your own multiclassing rules - of the two i recommend new powers, since it will be much easier) is to just try to choose existing powers from the appropriate class, and if you absolutely have to you can pick up a multiclass feat or three.

in my opinion, multiclassing in 4th edition, in any currently published form, sucks. a lot. it sucks slightly less if you use the multiclassing feats, but even if you use them it still sucks. and i can't recommend it to anyone.

in my opinion, multiclassing in 4th edition, in any currently published form, sucks. a lot. it sucks slightly less if you use the multiclassing feats, but even if you use them it still sucks. and i can't recommend it to anyone.

hey, at least i answered your question. nobody else even seems to be interested enough to chip in here.

if you would like, i could rephrase that to "multiclassing in 4th edition doesn't remotely do what i personally would like it to do", but functionally, i'd still be telling you that in my opinion it sucks, i'd just be using nicer words.

if you must have something more specific than that, i suppose i would say that my main problem is that in my experience, multi-classing a character in 4th edition D&D probably generates one of 3 basic outcomes:

1) feels exactly like class A with slightly tweaked powers.

2) doesn't feel like one class (or possibly either class, i suppose), and does a lousy job of one or the other.

3) doesn't feel like either class, and does a lousy job at both of them.

Jaid wrote:hey, at least i answered your question. nobody else even seems to be interested enough to chip in here.

Wow...

if you would like, i could rephrase that to "multiclassing in 4th edition doesn't remotely do what i personally would like it to do", but functionally, i'd still be telling you that in my opinion it sucks, i'd just be using nicer words.

It came across to me as an excuse to bash multiclassing rather than to address the question. I get that not everyone likes 4e multiclassing, and that's fine. Personally, I like the hybrid rules better myself.

The point of the thread, however, was how to create a specialty priest of Celestian within the 4e framework. What sorts of individuals would be following him? What sorts of rules would you use?

Jaid wrote:hey, at least i answered your question. nobody else even seems to be interested enough to chip in here.

Wow...

if you would like, i could rephrase that to "multiclassing in 4th edition doesn't remotely do what i personally would like it to do", but functionally, i'd still be telling you that in my opinion it sucks, i'd just be using nicer words.

It came across to me as an excuse to bash multiclassing rather than to address the question. I get that not everyone likes 4e multiclassing, and that's fine. Personally, I like the hybrid rules better myself.

The point of the thread, however, was how to create a specialty priest of Celestian within the 4e framework. What sorts of individuals would be following him? What sorts of rules would you use?

- the same kind of individuals that followed him in 2nd edition, unless you've decided to change him.
- like i said, i would invent new powers entirely. i would look at the areas celestian focuses on, invent some new powers that fit in with that focus and matching the original flavor, make them cleric powers with a requirement of 'must worship celestian*' or something like that, and call it a day.

* you could also just make it more along the lines of "must worship a deity with portfolio X" if you prefer.

Jaid wrote:hey, at least i answered your question. nobody else even seems to be interested enough to chip in here.

Wow...

if you would like, i could rephrase that to "multiclassing in 4th edition doesn't remotely do what i personally would like it to do", but functionally, i'd still be telling you that in my opinion it sucks, i'd just be using nicer words.

It came across to me as an excuse to bash multiclassing rather than to address the question. I get that not everyone likes 4e multiclassing, and that's fine. Personally, I like the hybrid rules better myself.

The point of the thread, however, was how to create a specialty priest of Celestian within the 4e framework. What sorts of individuals would be following him? What sorts of rules would you use?

- the same kind of individuals that followed him in 2nd edition, unless you've decided to change him.
- like i said, i would invent new powers entirely. i would look at the areas celestian focuses on, invent some new powers that fit in with that focus and matching the original flavor, make them cleric powers with a requirement of 'must worship celestian*' or something like that, and call it a day.

* you could also just make it more along the lines of "must worship a deity with portfolio X" if you prefer.

I would love to have answered this, however I don't have the knowledge of 4e to begin to answer.

Dragonhelm wrote:The point of the thread, however, was how to create a specialty priest of Celestian within the 4e framework. What sorts of individuals would be following him? What sorts of rules would you use?

To be fair, Jaid did say this:

Jaid wrote:so actually, my personal suggestion, assuming we don't go with the imo superior method of houseruling (either adding new powers to be chosen by the specialty priest, or creating your own multiclassing rules - of the two i recommend new powers, since it will be much easier) is to just try to choose existing powers from the appropriate class, and if you absolutely have to you can pick up a multiclass feat or three.

I've got no experience with 4e, I'm afraid, but that looks like it was an answer that you seemed to overlook. I've know Jaid argue against my own viewpoint in the past, but it has always seemed to have been constructive criticism (rather than the sort of "I don't like this - so ner" sort of viewpoint that many other fans - including sometimes myself in the past - have used).

With no frame of reference, I don't even understand what Jaid is saying there. (The words make sense, but I don't know what is the same in 4e. All I know is that it looks totally different and I don't have the time to learn it.) Does that not work as a solution? If it doesn't, then what is wrong with it? Maybe Jaid can give it a tweak for you.

3e folded "speciality clerics" back into the standard cleric. And the Living Greyhawk download for 3e seems to go with that logic for Clerics of Celestian. Has 4e maybe continued that in the core rulebook?

Big Mac wrote:3e folded "speciality clerics" back into the standard cleric. And the Living Greyhawk download for 3e seems to go with that logic for Clerics of Celestian. Has 4e maybe continued that in the core rulebook?

4e doesn't have domains as part of the core materials, though they are part of the expanded materials. They could help out. Thing is, 4e domains don't cover the wide range that 3e domains do. I've seen multiclassing as kind of a replacement for that.

Big Mac wrote:3e folded "speciality clerics" back into the standard cleric. And the Living Greyhawk download for 3e seems to go with that logic for Clerics of Celestian. Has 4e maybe continued that in the core rulebook?

4e doesn't have domains as part of the core materials, though they are part of the expanded materials. They could help out.

No domains in the core? Wow! So how do they run clerics in the PHB? Is it all refocussed on those per encounter abilities?

Hmm. Well when 3e came out, there were not as many domains, as 2e had spheres, but then other things (like Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) started to add them back.

I know there has been (and still is) speculation that the 3e SJ game needs some additional domains added. How hard would it be to do this for 4e? Is there a way to work out what power level 4e domains have and then use the Living Greyhawk version of a cleric of Celestian to knock up any new domains?

Or do you think you would need some sort of 2e to 4e jump to do this right?

Last time I heard, Cam Banks said he was going to knock up some DL conversions for 4e. Has he done any of the Holy Orders of the Stars yet? If he has, maybe we can file off the serial numbers and use one of them as a template for a Celestians conversion.

Big Mac wrote: No domains in the core? Wow! So how do they run clerics in the PHB? Is it all refocussed on those per encounter abilities?

Domains are found in Divine Power, and any divine class can take them. Otherwise, it's just the choice of powers that differentiates them.

I know there has been (and still is) speculation that the 3e SJ game needs some additional domains added. How hard would it be to do this for 4e? Is there a way to work out what power level 4e domains have and then use the Living Greyhawk version of a cleric of Celestian to knock up any new domains?

To write up new domains, not hard at all. What you have to factor in is your audience. With Character Builder, you won't be able to put in house rules. So that's something to think about.

Or do you think you would need some sort of 2e to 4e jump to do this right?

I would look back to AD&D for original intent, mostly. Take the themes from that and then re-imagine them in the new edition.

Last time I heard, Cam Banks said he was going to knock up some DL conversions for 4e. Has he done any of the Holy Orders of the Stars yet? If he has, maybe we can file off the serial numbers and use one of them as a template for a Celestians conversion.

Cam has since sold his 4e books, so I don't think he'll be doing any 4e design any time soon.

Big Mac wrote:Last time I heard, Cam Banks said he was going to knock up some DL conversions for 4e. Has he done any of the Holy Orders of the Stars yet? If he has, maybe we can file off the serial numbers and use one of them as a template for a Celestians conversion.

Cam has since sold his 4e books, so I don't think he'll be doing any 4e design any time soon.

Wow!

That is so mind blowing, I can't even think of a reply to the rest of your post right now.

Cam was so behind 4e development (when others were being grumbling sceptics) that I kind of thought of him as part of the 4e furniture.

This is going to nerf the 4e fan movement a bit, because people like Cam* are really great for bouncing ideas off. I thought he would have made a great mentor for people doing fan conversions.

* = I have always thought that 3e SJ fandom has suffered from not getting the great Paul Westermeyer on board with that ruleset. Because Paul W is one of those people who really has a good take on "what Jeff Grubb would have done". Now I know that Paul doesn't like the d20 System mechanic, so would never want to press-gang him into doing 3e stuff, but I figure that a 3e SJCS that Paul couldn't rip to shreds would be a lot more true to Jeff Grubb's vision than a random collection of conversions, that had no hard but constructive peer review process.

I will answer the rest of your post...in a bit. But I need to take this bombshell in first.

Big Mac wrote: No domains in the core? Wow! So how do they run clerics in the PHB? Is it all refocussed on those per encounter abilities?

Domains are found in Divine Power, and any divine class can take them. Otherwise, it's just the choice of powers that differentiates them.

OK, my best (uneducated) guess would be that the 4e setup means that Celestian (and any other SJ gods) will need two conversions. One without Divine Power (so those without it can play Spelljammer) and a second with Divine Power (so that people can add the domains.

I've seen people winging that later 4e campaign settings are going to be "too tied into multiple core books", but I really don't think that "fan fear" needs to apply to any conversions. I think they could be made to be flexible.

I'm really talking with second-hand information that has been through the filter of other people, so I might be way off the mark. But this seems to be the best concept I can come up with.

Dragonhelm wrote:

Big Mac wrote:I know there has been (and still is) speculation that the 3e SJ game needs some additional domains added. How hard would it be to do this for 4e? Is there a way to work out what power level 4e domains have and then use the Living Greyhawk version of a cleric of Celestian to knock up any new domains?

To write up new domains, not hard at all. What you have to factor in is your audience. With Character Builder, you won't be able to put in house rules. So that's something to think about.

Hmm. Sounds like they should have created a "Character Builder Markup Language" similar to XML, to allow people to add house rules. D&D is all about putting the GM in the driving seat and if Character Builder can not cope with additions to rules, then it could never cope with a fan Spelljammer Campaign Guide.

Hopefully, it isn't too late for them to produce an update.

Dragonhelm wrote:

Big Mac wrote:Or do you think you would need some sort of 2e to 4e jump to do this right?

I would look back to AD&D for original intent, mostly. Take the themes from that and then re-imagine them in the new edition.

I think the "original intent" thing can be very very useful. Even if you don't use it in a 4e (or 3e) conversion, you can take something from the 2e roots and turn it into a magic item or somesuch.

perhaps it's just me, but i can (and indeed *have*) added houseruled stuff to my version of character builder. i'm not sure if that information can be conveniently shared or not, but i do know it can be added... so far as i can tell, the only place without a 'create custom element' option is the skills section (which seems a bit odd, but oh well). you just have to right click the little 'house' icon (usually at the top right) and it will give you some options... usually one of those options is to 'create custom element'

now it may not be particularly robust, and it may or may not properly 'ta'lk' to the rest of the program, but it certainly looks possible (and if we could find out where that stuff is saved, we could probably find a way to transfer it...)

(note: just checked, unless it's based on saving the character, it doesn't look like those custom elements will show up for other characters... which is pretty lousy, and doesn't add much utility, unless i'm missing something)

Cam Banks was the big rules guy behind Margaret Weis Productions. Originally part of the Whitestone Council in Dragonlance fandom, he rose to be a freelance game designer, and from there, a staff member of MWP. He is renowned for his rules prowess, so this comes as a bit of a shock.

My understanding is that he's taking a year off of D&D for some reason. I think he likes the 4e rules okay, but probably prefers 3e. You would have to ask him to be sure, though.

Cam Banks was the big rules guy behind Margaret Weis Productions. Originally part of the Whitestone Council in Dragonlance fandom, he rose to be a freelance game designer, and from there, a staff member of MWP. He is renowned for his rules prowess, so this comes as a bit of a shock.

Sorry for ignoring you, Tauster. I think that Dragonhelm's answer covers everything I was going to say.

Lets just say that, if I was going to write a netbook for Krynnspace (for argument's sake) my "fantasy proofreaders" would include Cam Banks, as well as Paul Westermeyer.

Dragonhelm wrote:My understanding is that he's taking a year off of D&D for some reason. I think he likes the 4e rules okay, but probably prefers 3e. You would have to ask him to be sure, though.

I hope this is nothing bad. Perhaps, he will join in with the 4e DL movement in the next year or so.

To be honest, with the 4e settings still coming out, DL and SJ conversions could both afford to take a bit of a break and then learn from the lessons of the WotC settings.

Big Mac wrote: To be honest, with the 4e settings still coming out, DL and SJ conversions could both afford to take a bit of a break and then learn from the lessons of the WotC settings.

Dark Sun is going to give us a lot of new tools, such as themes. Themes are another level above race and class, but are much broader in scope. So a gladiator theme can be applied to warlords, fighters, etc.