to me,
the rapture event occurs when the two prophets are raptured, and Jesus is seen in the sky by the whole world, presumably on TV.
then the great day of wrath comes. The great Tribulation being a time of persecution and the first 3 1/2 years reign of the beast over the kings of the earth.
I think many many Christians, as in religious church attenders, will NOT be raptured as
in the ten virgins some were ready and some were not,
one person was taken one was not scripture.
Also those that receive the mark of the beast, ie Christians, will taste the wrath of God.But can you be saved after the rapture occurs?
I think the 144,000 jews are converted after the appearance of Jesus, and I don't think the Jews will
accept the mark of the beast, especially if he is an Islamic hitler.
Though the wrath of God is poured out on earth I think there will still be about 2 billion people
surviving but does the mark of the beast cancel salvation,
it cancels rapture and would lead to eternal shame because you valued your material security and health above faith in Christ.
Better not get that mark, starving is a better option.
nearly one in seven people now have a tattoo so the tattoo shops are there for you....it will
be so easy for you to accept and so hard to believe.

to me,
the rapture event occurs when the two prophets are raptured, and Jesus is seen in the sky by the whole world, presumably on TV.
then the great day of wrath comes. The great Tribulation being a time of persecution and the first 3 1/2 years reign of the beast over the kings of the earth.
I think many many Christians, as in religious church attenders, will NOT be raptured as
in the ten virgins some were ready and some were not,
one person was taken one was not scripture.
Also those that receive the mark of the beast, ie Christians, will taste the wrath of God.But can you be saved after the rapture occurs?
I think the 144,000 jews are converted after the appearance of Jesus, and I don't think the Jews will
accept the mark of the beast, especially if he is an Islamic hitler.
Though the wrath of God is poured out on earth I think there will still be about 2 billion people
surviving but does the mark of the beast cancel salvation,
it cancels rapture and would lead to eternal shame because you valued your material security and health above faith in Christ.
Better not get that mark, starving is a better option.
nearly one in seven people now have a tattoo so the tattoo shops are there for you....it will
be so easy for you to accept and so hard to believe.

Click to expand...

"Religious church attenders" are not Christians.
But Lot was counted righteous for "his righteous soul was vexed......" But he WALKED by sight and not by faith .
Abraham was counted righteous also but walked by faith and not by sight .
All who came out of Egypt were saved by the power of God the Word of God and the blood of the lamb and through faith in the blood .Yet not all entered into the promise because of their unbelief .
They not only believed the wrong message but also walked by sight and not by faith .
The two faithful witnesses saw the same things but saw them in the true light and walked by faith .
The message they preached was rejected and so they were the only ones who actually entered into the promise.

There is the natural man .
The carnal man
and the spiritual man .
The natural man "doth always resist the Holy ghost"
The carnal man cannot receive the things of God .They quench and grieve the Holy Spirit .
The Spiritual man judgeth all things and is judged of none .

The natural man is a man born of earth .
The carnal man is one born of heaven but lives as if he was born of earth . or in other words while he is spiritually born again his mind is as it was and has not been renewed by the Word of God and the Spirit of God. and thus they "are yet carnal"
The spiritual man is one who is BORNagain but has also allowed God to renew his thinking and transform his life .Not with outward apearences but by the manifestation of the life of Christ in and through him.

The children of Israel did no work of God till they crossed Jordan.
The servant of Elijah did no work of God till he crossed Jordan.
The Lord Himself did no work of God till he crossed Jordan.

Jordan speaks of death or descending .
There must come a time in every believers life when he is crucified WITH Christ and buried WITH Christ so that he might eb also ressurected WITH Christ also .
Some one may reply we are already as soon as we are BORNagain.
That which has been SOWN in us needs must also be manifested in and through us as well. So that the Word of God is made flesh in us and a reality .
My kingdom go thy kingdom come so to speak.
"Nevertheless I live yet not I for it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me "
if we are to carry our cross daily we should not think we are going anywhere but to a calvary .
and to be crucified with Christ .
No man can crucify himself .
But how was Jesus Crucified?
true by the wicked hands of men .
But also by the Word of God ;accordign to the scriptures.
By the Power of God he was strengthened.
and by the will of God . "it pleased God to bruise him"
So then are we .
For we are to be made conformable to Christ .
In death burial and ressurection.

we cannot know the power of His resurection unless also we are made conformable to his death.
There have been many true revivals in the past and we have heard of them.
There are these days many claims of revival these days but are not .
The Bride of Christ by her very nature must have a perpetual revival and flowing out of her rivers of living water .
She will not be like Lot who chose his way by sight and so pitched his tent TOWARDS Sodom.
The next time you hear of him he is captured WITH them. and the next time you hear of him he is living among them and is blind to the hour and to the danger he is in.

Lot was counted righteous . But walked by sight .
Noah was" moved with fear"
But in the days of Noah there was also Enoch who walked by faith .

The great mistake of the present day church is to have believed that as soon as you are BORN again you are automaticaly in the Bride . To be BORNagain gets us out of Egypt so to speak. It qualifies us to run the race. It does not win us the prize.
and it is this false idea that causes so much confusion as to the timing of what is called the rapture .But which should be rightly called the "translation" of the Bride where the lord will come FOR His bride .
Who will then come later after the marriage WITH His Bride.

Salvation, before, during, and after Jesus' ministry is still via faith. After the rapture, it's still by faith. Faith faith faith.

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Not sure to what that is in reply to.
But faith in God cometh by not only hearing but by understanding the Word of God.
Whether it be in understand as to being saved/BORN again, healing,deliverance or any other matter.
Faith in ones own interpretation of Scripture does not cut the mustard.
What
For example there is a form of grace preached these days which is a disgrace. And no more saves a person than cornflakes is enough to live on.
In Christ
gerald

But without faith it is impossible to please him:for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him​

(Hebrews 11:6 KJV)

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That was spoken of Enoch.
Then what of Noah?
and if Noah walked by faith why was he not taken also?

But we read Noah was moved by fear .
Thus love was not perfected .
Never the less he found grace in the sight of God. and was saved THROUGH the flood .
Enoch walked by faith and with God and God took him .He was saved BEFORE the flood.

Prayer Team

That was spoken of Enoch.
Then what of Noah?
and if Noah walked by faith why was he not taken also?

But we read Noah was moved by fear .
Thus love was not perfected .
Never the less he found grace in the sight of God. and was saved THROUGH the flood .
Enoch walked by faith and with God and God took him .He was saved BEFORE the flood.

1. Also those that receive the mark of the beast, ie Christians, will taste the wrath of God.But can you be saved after the rapture occurs?

2. surviving but does the mark of the beast cancel salvation,
it cancels rapture and would lead to eternal shame because you valued your material security and health above

Click to expand...

1. Yes! We have to understand that the seven trumpets and even worse seven bowls are plagues Rev 15:8, 16:21.

We have to understand the significance of a plague. God gave plagues to the Egyptians in increasing levels of severity as signs and warnings. Signs = He wants the people to have no doubt that it is Him doing this. Warning = He really wanted the people of Egypt to take Him seriosuly.

God would ''NOT'' send plagues unless He had hope for many obeying Him. We have to understand that. Even though the plague with the Egyptians ended with them losing their firstborns before they obeyed Him, they still obeyed.

God's trumpets are meant to help those on earth understand that time is UP. No time left. Either get right with God and have a terrible time at the hands of the anti-christ or pull the middle finger to God and face His plagues.

It is very interesting to read how those that see the bowls still do not repent Rev 16:11. It makes it clear that God is only doing this to get them to repent. It is also clear that since God knows that by the time the bowls are emptied He is dealing with the worst of the worst humans, He still gives them plagues VS immediate annihilation. IE He wants us watching to see that He is giving eqaul and fair opportunity to all. Albeit those bowls are terrible and the people receiving them are not repenting.

2. Yes. The first bowl is sores upon only those who have the mark of the beast Rev 16:2. It is clear that God is giving those who don't yet have it a rather harsh warning.

You have a strange idea of what is an argument and what is as you put it argumentative.
I have replied to your assertions and denials with arguments. You speak of faith.I point out that Enoch had faith and was translated or rapture before the outpouring of God's wrath.
No ah had faith also but "was moved by fear" he was saved through the flood.
You simply ignore another reply and accuse me of being argumentative.
Understand this. The day is far spent and the Lord is nigh and the church is not ready.
And as has been proved even y the posts posted. The confusion arises from the fact of bad or inadequate teaching on the Bride of Christ. Having made the milk of the Word the be all and end all which you it seems would wish to continue.
I refuse to do so.
People may deny assert and sometimes accuse .But it does not change the facts of Scripture.
I make no claim to infallibility, though some are foolish to do so.
If I am wrong in what I say ,prove it. But do not expect me to change what I say on such a flimsy argument so far presented.
And while I am fully persuaded if the facts that conviction is not based on the milk but the meat of the word.

Prayer Team

You have a strange idea of what is an argument and what is as you put it argumentative.
I have replied to your assertions and denials with arguments. You speak of faith.I point out that Enoch had faith and was translated or rapture before the outpouring of God's wrath.
No ah had faith also but "was moved by fear" he was saved through the flood.
You simply ignore another reply and accuse me of being argumentative.
Understand this. The day is far spent and the Lord is nigh and the church is not ready.
And as has been proved even y the posts posted. The confusion arises from the fact of bad or inadequate teaching on the Bride of Christ. Having made the milk of the Word the be all and end all which you it seems would wish to continue.
I refuse to do so.
People may deny assert and sometimes accuse .But it does not change the facts of Scripture.
I make no claim to infallibility, though some are foolish to do so.
If I am wrong in what I say ,prove it. But do not expect me to change what I say on such a flimsy argument so far presented.
And while I am fully persuaded if the facts that conviction is not based on the milk but the meat of the word.

to me,
the rapture event occurs when the two prophets are raptured, and Jesus is seen in the sky by the whole world, presumably on TV.
then the great day of wrath comes. The great Tribulation being a time of persecution and the first 3 1/2 years reign of the beast over the kings of the earth.
I think many many Christians, as in religious church attenders, will NOT be raptured as
in the ten virgins some were ready and some were not,
one person was taken one was not scripture.
Also those that receive the mark of the beast, ie Christians, will taste the wrath of God.But can you be saved after the rapture occurs?
I think the 144,000 jews are converted after the appearance of Jesus, and I don't think the Jews will
accept the mark of the beast, especially if he is an Islamic hitler.
Though the wrath of God is poured out on earth I think there will still be about 2 billion people
surviving but does the mark of the beast cancel salvation,
it cancels rapture and would lead to eternal shame because you valued your material security and health above faith in Christ.
Better not get that mark, starving is a better option.
nearly one in seven people now have a tattoo so the tattoo shops are there for you....it will
be so easy for you to accept and so hard to believe.

Click to expand...

I do recommend the book Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal..

1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV.
2. The third temple is built Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place Dan 9:27 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
15. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
16. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
17. Jesus Christ landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
18. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
19. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
20. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
21. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
22. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
23. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
24. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.

but does the mark of the beast cancel salvation, it cancels rapture and would lead to eternal shame because you valued your material security and health above faith in Christ. Better not get that mark, starving is a better option. nearly one in seven people now have a tattoo so the tattoo shops are there for you....it will be so easy for you to accept and so hard to believe.

Click to expand...

Only nonbelievers will receive the mark THALLON. Believers have already received God's mark and seal when they believed Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30

To be BORN again qualifies you to run the race it is not an automatic right to win the prize.
All true born children of God are called to that high calling But not all will respond to that call.happy and content to be saved born again or misled like the foolish virgins to think to be born again is assumed to be ready.

To be BORN again qualifies you to run the race it is not an automatic right to win the prize.
All true born children of God are called to that high calling But not all will respond to that call.happy and content to be saved born again or misled like the foolish virgins to think to be born again is assumed to be ready.

Salvation, before, during, and after Jesus' ministry is still via faith. After the rapture, it's still by faith. Faith faith faith.

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I agree. But would consider that there is an addition to salvation during the Tribulation period?

Rev. 14:9........
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand".

Rev. 14:12.......
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

It seems to me that to be saved during the Tribulation, one must NOT have heard the gospel and rejected it.
2 Thess. 2:10-12.......
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

1.) So IMO it looks like one has to come to Christ by FAITH in the Lord Jesus, which will be preached by the 144,000. Those saved will never have heard the gospel.

2). Then after that the ones saved must then refuse the mark of the beast for the whole 7 years of Tribulation.

3). Along with the 1st two, They must keep the commandments of Christ.

It seems to me that the element of works have entered into the process of salvation, ie.--- one MUST refuse the mark and KEEP the commandments of Christ.

To be BORN again qualifies you to run the race it is not an automatic right to win the prize.
All true born children of God are called to that high calling But not all will respond to that call.happy and content to be saved born again or misled like the foolish virgins to think to be born again is assumed to be ready.

In Christ
Gerald

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That is not Biblical.

John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"Born again" means "to be translated".....or it can also mean "From Above".

To enter the kingdom of God which is the prize of being saved, one must first be born again from God. We do not get to heaven until we die, but we are one foot in and one foot waiting.

The idea that being saved means we now have the ability to "Run the race" so we can then be saved is ridiculous. We are saved the very moment we accept Christ. If we had to "run a race" then to be saved.....we will have to remove Ephesians 2:8-9 out of the Bible. Salvation is 100% the grace of God through faith and not works of any kind which includes the "running of a race".

John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"Born again" means "to be translated".....or it can also mean "From Above".

To enter the kingdom of God which is the prize of being saved, one must first be born again from God. We do not get to heaven until we die, but we are one foot in and one foot waiting.

The idea that being saved means we now have the ability to "Run the race" so we can then be saved is ridiculous. We are saved the very moment we accept Christ. If we had to "run a race" then to be saved.....we will have to remove Ephesians 2:8-9 out of the Bible. Salvation is 100% the grace of God through faith and not works of any kind which includes the "running of a race".

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Here you have but proved my point often said.
That the church has for peace sake reduced the "great salvation " of God to being saved from sin or to be BORN again.
I cannot emphasise it enough that even as it is only the beginning when we are BORN onto this world so also and how much the more then is it only the beginning to be BORN again into the the world to come.
To be born again is the equivalent of getting out of Egypt.
By the blood of the lamb,the Word of God and the Power of God.
It was not by works but by grace according to the promise.
Wonderful though that is to be so delivered from the law of sin and death. It is NOT the prize.nor can be.
Wonderful that it is to be a child of God.That too is not the prize.
To cross the wilderness is not the prize either.
The church has made the wandering in the wilderness for 40 YEARS as the NORM of a christian life. And so it has become.
For that is what is taught (wrongly)
For it did not take them 40 years to get from Egypt to the banks of the river Jordan and the promised land,it only took them 40 DAYS to do so.But the promised land was not the prize either.
All the blessings of God great and wonderful as they are,are not the prize either.
Was not the bride in the song of Solomon so taken up with her beauty and her jewels and adornments that she either did not hear the knocking on the door of her beloved or she was so taken up with herself and beauty she delayed for so long to answer he had come and gone by the time she opened the door.
To enter the kingdom of God is not the prize for by the Word of God I am already in it and live in it.
For I have been" translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of a God's dear Son"
How then can you say it is the prize when if you are a child of God you are already in it?
Know ye not that we live and move and have our being in God?
Is not the kingdom of God within you?
And should we not pray that the kingdom of God be manifested?
We are in truth born from above if we are his.
But said the Lord?
Even as he was not of this world neither then am I.
Do you see how radical this Gospel is?
For if we are begotten again of the Father then truly I am in this world but not of it.
The prize then is a lot higher than many suppose.and the call is indeed a high calling.
That demands total commitment dedication and holyness unto the Lord.
What you are more accurately describing is one foot in the world and one foot in the kingdom.
The red sea totally separated them from Egypt. God got them out of Egypt but how many let God get Egypt out if them?
2
Therefore it it is not my concept of being born again only qualifies us to run the race it's your understanding of your position in Christian and misunderstanding of the nature and the character of the Bride that is at fault.
For in the Olympics no man can simply enter. He has to qualify to be able to race at all.
The world the unsaved cannot even run the race let alone finish the course.
Nor then win the prize.
Paul spoke of winning the prize,
He spoke of himself as finishing the course, I don't think he ever presumed he had won the race.That's for another to judge.
We need to lift our eyes then for starting does not mean we will finish until we cross the finishing line.
The prize now there is another thing.

Accept a man be born again of the water (word) and the Spirit of God he cannot ENTER the kingdom of God.john 3-5

Not only do we need Kingdom vision so that we develop our vision to see the principles of the Kingdom of God.
But the king of that Kingdom must reign in our hearts.
Not ourselves and our little kingdoms.
Even then as a baby born into this world must learn to function in this world and the self discipline to do so.
So then they who are born into the world that is to come must learn to function in it and by degree and by measure be made conformable in likeness or character to be like Jesus.
For as the Father sent me said the Lord so send I you.
And greater works (more) shall ye do for I go unto the father.
How then do you say it is unbiblical?
I would suggest it is your present understanding is not.
But we are transformed by the renewing of our minds.
The church has made the milk of the word the meat.
It has rejected the messages for the church and says it does not apply to us but to the world and the unsaved.
Then I direct your eyes to the state of the world and ask where is the salt?
Much of the church "celebrates" while millions are chained to the chariots of hell and dragged off.
The church then replies it is the last days these things should be so.
Forgetting the pit frome whence it has been dug and the nature and disposition of the Lord "who is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth"
To taken up with her beauty and adornments and gifts.
You can give and not love, but you cannot love and not give.
God so loved the world that he gave......
I
In Christ
Gerald