The Defendant in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case Has a Constitutional Right to Defend Himself

Friday, January 25, 2013.

I believe there is a good possibility that the defendant in the Trayvon Martin murder case is extremely unhappy with his lawyers. I think he expected his case would be over by now and he would be a free man awash in millions of dollars from civil suits against his accusers and set for a life of leisure. Give what some lawyers said about his case, one can understand why he might have felt that way.

I disagreed with their opinions, but I may have been in the minority at that time — before Angela Corey charged the defendant with murder in the second degree. The subsequent release of evidence has confirmed my initial opinion and I suspect most lawyers now agree that the defendant has little chance to prevail.

Nevertheless, he had high expectations when he selected Mark O’Mara to represent him and his case has gone downhill ever since. He has only himself to blame for that. Basically, he could not keep his mouth shut and every time he opened it, he said something that hurt his case.

He appears to believe that he can outsmart anyone and lie his way out of any trouble. While that might have worked for him in the past, it’s certainly not working for him now. To put it crudely, he’s pissing with big dogs now and failing to impress.

He does not seem to be the sort of person who would admit mistakes and accept responsibility for their consequences. Instead, I suspect he blames his lawyers for his present circumstances.

The Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments of our Constitution guarantee that a person brought to trial in any state or federal court must be afforded the right to the assistance of counsel before he can be validly convicted and punished by imprisonment. This clear constitutional rule has emerged from a series of cases decided here over the last 50 years.[1] The question before us now is whether a defendant in a state criminal trial has a constitutional right to proceed without counsel when he voluntarily and intelligently elects to do so. Stated another way, the question is whether a State may constitutionally hale a person into its criminal courts and there force a lawyer upon him, even when he insists that he wants to conduct his own defense. It is not an easy question, but we have concluded that a State may not constitutionally do so.

This defendant would be ill advised to represent himself because he has demonstrated that he is not very smart and he does not know the law.

Can a defendant who lacks intelligence and does not know the law and the rules of evidence “voluntarily and intelligently” elect to waive his Sixth Amendment right to counsel and represent himself?

Justice Potter Stewart, who wrote the majority opinion, answered that question:

It is undeniable that in most criminal prosecutions defendants could better defend with counsel’s guidance than by their own unskilled efforts. But where the defendant will not voluntarily accept representation by counsel, the potential advantage of a lawyer’s training and experience can be realized, if at all, only imperfectly. To force a lawyer on a defendant can only lead him to believe that the law contrives against him. Moreover, it is not inconceivable that in some rare instances, the defendant might in fact present his case more effectively by conducting his own defense. Personal liberties are not rooted in the law of averages. The right to defend is personal. The defendant, and not his lawyer or the State, will bear the personal consequences of a conviction. It is the defendant, therefore, who must be free personally to decide whether in his particular case counsel is to his advantage. And although he may conduct his own defense ultimately to his own detriment, his choice must be honored out of “that respect for the individual which is the lifeblood of the law.” Illinois v. Allen, 397 U. S. 337, 350-351 (BRENNAN, J., concurring).[46]

289 Responses to The Defendant in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case Has a Constitutional Right to Defend Himself

The blatant lie that fogggen had to walk through to his own street to get an adress is even more ludicrous .
When you consider the street fogen went to check was his own flippin street?
He didnt have to walk through the cut through to find out the name of his OWN STREET.
I know he has a realy bad memory ect.
BUT COME ON.

By calcuLATING HIS POSITION of his house an side of the street .
Even one side odd opposite.
He could have given Sean an aprox location of an adress from his Truck.
Of course we know it was a lie to deflect the truth that he exited his truck on the run to persue Trayvon an not look for an unasked for.
Unneeded adress.
But of course in foggens head his blatant non sence lies didnt have to make rhyme or reason.

His cohorts at S P D had already indicated it was a good kill an no one was ever going to question his blatant inconsistant bs.

So glad he kept flappin his lips without engageing his brain…..

How long before M O M attempts to have the statements thrown out along with the reconstuction vt.
As his cleint was suffering P T S D….

Another thing to consider in his I needed to get an address story, is that every townhome in the community had a different house number. It’s not like there were two “1711s” with one on Twin Trees and the other on Retreat View Circle. He could have easily given the house number that was closest to his vehicle on TT and the cops could have found him just from that. But a neighborhood watch would know that, right? LOL.

Good video! Around the 10:00 mark of this video, I thought I heard someone speaking to fogen, And around the 10:12 mark of this video, right after fogen gives his name, I could almost swear I hear the low growl of a dog.

Even the highly intelligent & charming sociopath/serial killer, Ted Bundy, couldn’t escape a guilty verdict & consequently the death penalty, after defending himself; therefore I suspect the quite ignorant & repulsive sociopath defendant will get 25 to life, if he’s also stupid enough to take the less used road of defending himself. Stupid yes, but ultimately, very entertaining!

I must admit, the silence from the O’Mara defence team has been deafening! Maybe they’re coming to the realisation their case is unwinnable & will push for a plea!

Either way, with Angela Corey & Bernie de la Ronda at the helm, I believe justice will be served, on behalf of Trayvon Martin.

Zimmerman: And I wasn’t following him. I was just going in the same direction he was. Once he said…
Serino: That’s following (laughs).

+

Singleton: The other day you told me you got out of the car because dispatch was asking your location and you wanted to orient yourself. You did not tell me that you said, “Oh, @!$%#, he’s running” and then got out of the car and went in that same direction at the same time. Do you see what the problem is?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

Singleton: And he makes it clear to you he sees you. He walks up to your car, correct?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: So he was making it clear to you I recognize you’re following me.
Zimmerman: I didn’t know if he was doing that or he was doubling back or what he was doing.
Serino: No, but the reason why he’d say “Do you have a problem?” was because, for no other reason, because he realized you were following him.

Serino: OK, so you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. That’s not fear. You know what I mean?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing, or I’m gonna have. I mean, I don’t have any problems at all, it’s just that… it’s gonna be a problem
(plays tape 2:14 to 2:17)
Singleton: It sounds like you’re running right there.
Zimmerman: I wasn’t running.
Singleton: Oh (unintelligible)
(plays tape 2:16 to 2:17)
Serino: What is that you’re whispering? @!$%#ing what?
Zimmerman: Punks.
Serino: @!$%#ing punks. He wasn’t a @!$%#ing punk. (clears throat)
(plays tape 2:17 to 2:26)
Serino: OK.
(plays tape 2:26 to 2:34 )
Serino: OK, at the point where he said, are you following him, and he said, we don’t need you to do that, what went through your mind?
Zimmerman: He’s right.
Serino: So you shoulda stopped and went back to your vehicle.
Zimmerman: I still wanted to give him an address.
Serino: OK.

Another thing to consider with “it’s the wind, I’m not running” story. There is another site, I forgot which one which had the weather reports from stations close to the community, one as close as 400 yds. In both the wind was 3 knots or less during the timeframe of the incident and in the aviation community that is considered a calm wind. There was no wind blowing across his mike, it was him running.

Good catch there, towerflower! I might have given him the benefit of the doubt, not realizing that weather conditions for exact times are available. And it takes a fairly strong wind to make that much noise on a cellphone mic.

Bigots/Racists could find him plenty of work if he wanted to be a decent American. Not ONLY computer work can be done from home. He could do plenty of work from home. People do it all the time; disabled vets do it; couples do it; extended families do it. He could pull his weight, no doubt about it. It might not be fun but it would be possible.

IF some our theories are true, GZ knows all about selling stuff from home, via ebay! He could open an Ebay Seller location, where people who don’t have time to sell on ebay could sell their stuff through the “ebay rep” who keeps either a percentage of the final sale price, or a flat fixed fee up front. I’ve used those before. It IS a full time job, but hey! What ELSE (besides trolling) is GZ doing these days?

Cielo…..We currently have a civil suit going against one such operation here in Co…..Without going into detail, we contracted them to sell other collectables for us on consignment…..limited edition Ron Lee clowns….Signed Red Skelton paintings….Sawvorski crystal the list goes on.

I am an avid follower of Sun Tzu “Do not let your enemy know where you are strong….only let them know where you are weak”…..

MMP~ Honor has become a “quaint” idea I’m afraid. I totally believe in keeping my word, as I have honor and it’s worth more to me than my life. After I am gone, I want to be remembered as someone who could be depended upon to do the right thing. “What we do in life, echos in eternity.” That line has reverberated for me, and it keeps me mindful. “Qapla’ ” Success in your endevour. (in Klingon)

OH….I have them all printed out….even items listed that ended Dec. 14th under our specific client number………only to be relisted Dec 21st under a different client number……56 items with a total asking price of 13K…..the funny thing is….they pulled all the listings 9 days early (Jan. 11th.) after getting a call from the cops !!!!!!!

There are plenty of marketing scams on the net that GZ would have excellent credentials for and make a fair amount of money with. If nothing else, instead of spamming blogs with anti-Trayvon crap from 1000 accounts, he could be getting paid for using the same 1000 accounts to post spam for someone else’s products/scams. These are often advertised as “legit on-line data entry” jobs and not hard to find. In fact in many cases they’d not even be illegal, just against the rules and wishes of the victim site.

So he’d not have to find work from a real employer that wants real things done and will look at the character of the person doing it.

With respect to Fogen working, there could easily have been a motion in January for permission to Fogen to use a computer on a limited basis in order to work from home. The motion could have been quite reasonable and could have offered to have a continuous monitoring system installed (easily) into the computer to make sure Fogen did not violate the terms of whatever rules the judge imposed. Fogen could be working (plenty of bigots would give him work if he advertised on the Outhouse) from home within a few days and could keep that computer buzzing with business 16 hours per day (half him, half Shellie, producing income) and the money could be used for his defense fund. THAT motion would have probably been granted. Instead, they say, “We have nothing to ask for in January and by February [this is my guess] the client has PTSD and we need a continuance and he needs to leave the country to heal and get better and he needs the ankle bracelet off because it’s making him even more stressy.”

They won’t donate anything once he’s put down. The donators aren’t donating because they believe in GZ, they are donating for themselves…hoping to keep the SYG law alive and well, coming soon to their neighborhoods (they hope).
So once GZ goes to prison, he’s on his own.

According to a report in The Wall Street Journal, debt collectors in Missouri, Illinois, Alabama and other states are using a legal loophole to justify jailing poor citizens who legitimately cannot pay their debts.

Here’s how clever payday lenders work the system in Missouri — where, it should be noted, jailing someone for unpaid debts is illegal under the state constitution.

First, explains St. Louis Post-Dispatch, the creditor gets a judgment in civil court that a debtor hasn’t paid a sum that he owes. Then, the debtor is summoned to court for an “examination”: a review of their financial assets.

If the debtor fails to show up for the examination — as often happens in such cases — the creditor can ask for a “body attachment” — essentially, a warrant for the debtor’s arrest. At that point, the police can haul the debtor in and jail them until there’s a court hearing, or until they pay the bond. No coincidence, the bond is usually set at the amount of the original debt

Honestly, I can’t feel sorry for debtors who ignore court proceedings. They have opportunity to appear and file an answer to the creditor’s complaint. They have opportunity to make payment arrangements. Even after a judgment of default has been entered, they have opportunity (in Illinois, it is 30 days) to file motion to vacate the default. It is when they don’t do that, that creditors file citation to discover assets. What we’re talking about is a process of having legal counsel for creditors coming to court over a period of 6 mths or more.

For some odd reason, many people think that if they don’t appear in court in a civil action, that the court cannot do anything. They are wrong!

Those citations generally require the debtor/defendant to appear with documents pertaining to their income and assets. When ignored, the court can grant a body attachment warrant and hold the debtor in jail until a hearing. There are no bonds for contempt in civil actions. Rather, they are contempt sanctions.

Xena~ I am an educated woman with a Masters degree and have taught school for some 20 years. And yet I didn’t undertsand a WORD of what you wrote! How much more confusing it must be for people with less education, not to mention intimidating? And if you can’t pay bills, can you really afford a lawyer to explain it all? If there are free legal places, people aren’t aware of them. I’m not. The system is designed to impoverish, disenfranchise and incarcerate people. And that is another injustice that should be fought.

Xena~ I am an educated woman with a Masters degree and have taught school for some 20 years. And yet I didn’t undertsand a WORD of what you wrote!

Oh, oh. I’m sorry. I could break it down in everyday terms, but the entire point is, when people are served with a summons and complaint, they should not ignore it.

How much more confusing it must be for people with less education, not to mention intimidating?

That is why they should take time to find out what it all means and learning their resources. Most people start out at their local court building. There are resources now in many states with people who are approved by the court to provide legal information. They can explain procedures, but cannot give legal advice.

And if you can’t pay bills, can you really afford a lawyer to explain it all?

Most lawyers provide free consultation. In general, most of those uneducated people with collection problems don’t like what they hear and want there to be some law (other than bankruptcy) that allows them to walk away from their debts without being held accountable.

If there are free legal places, people aren’t aware of them. I’m not.

Most people do not look for legal aid resources until they need them. Too often, they wait until the last minute to find them. That presents a problem because the majority of legal aid programs are understaffed. There are long holding periods when calling, and when going to the offices without an appointment, they may be given one 3 wks later. That is why the moment they see they are unable to pay their bills, they should start seeking to understand their legal options.

The system is designed to impoverish, disenfranchise and incarcerate people. And that is another injustice that should be fought.

I cannot disagree in some matters involving the system. However, the article that was referenced and resulting jail for contempt, is because those people did not use the system — they ignored it.

Recently schools in Texas have started to include Financial Education in the curriculum. Many parents don’t teach their children about finances, budgeting, restraint, saving, etc… hence the flood of ignorant people in debt. I wish I had had that kind of education as I have had my share of run-ins with money and debt. It is a complex issue, as it is not just money and debt that are involved but many negative feelings as well. Shame and guilt will stop one as surely as arrogance and entitlement. Anyway, my feelings are based on just anecdotal evidence. Still, payday lenders SHOULD be regulated. And that’s my mantra and I’m sticking with it! 🙂 BTW Xena~ how DO I find those free legal sites? That’s info I can share with the parents of the students at my school (high poverty, minority, migrant population).

Just want to make sure that the vulnerable in our system don’t get sucked into a system that turns cruel.

I’m sorry if I came across as having no compassion. Trust me — those debtors who end up in jail on body attachment warrants are those who thumbed their noses at the summons and complaint, thumbed their noses at the default judgment, and thumbed their noses at the citation to discover assets.

The bottom line is that they need to arrange to pay their debt or file for bankruptcy before things get that far.

I think we’re seeing such a failure of the system and such greed in the upper classes and deprivation in the middle and working class that there’s not necessarily any real relief or solutions in some situations. I can see why people stress and try to ignore the entire situation rather than take it through channels. For some, there’s really nothing more to lose except hope..

Except that victims of payday loans tend to
* have poor enough education to not see a payday loan is unrepayable
* not have money for even making a few phone calls to find out where to get free legal advice
* certainly no money to pay an actual lawyer for any

and in some cases not even enough education to understand the legalese on the summons.

Also they may have some experience of not attending, eg for traffic tickets, and “nothing happening” as a result (though actually they got convicted and owe the fines but they’d only find that out if they can ever again afford a car and get pulled over and checked for outstanding fines).

In other words most payday loan victims are ignorant of their rights and cant afford to fix this ignorance.

Meanwhile the lenders get around laws limiting interest rates (if there are any) by just charging huge fees instead. When the first due interest/fee can’t be paid (as you’d expect) they just roll it into a bigger loan until an initial $200 ends up being $2000 in a few weeks. They should be outlawed altogether.

@aussie. Payday loans, like title loans, are loan sharks. I researched a title loan company some years ago and concluded they are not in business to loan money but rather, to take possession of vehicles. The owners of the company have several pre-owned car lots in other states, and I suspected that they took possession of cars when the debtors cannot repay the title loan, and shipped them to one of their car lots out of state to sell.

This info was discovered when I was called upon to assist a debtor to arrange a settlement with a title loan company — $125.00 when they said she owed $895.00. It was originally a $500 loan and she had paid the interest of about $110 a month for 6 months, so the company had recovered the principal and reasonable interest.

aussie~ Agree 110%. There are periodic stories in the local paper about the devastating effect these payday sharks do to the poor and minorities, but the government doesn’t care. The payday lenders have HUGE coffers and strong lobbies to protect them. The poor and other minorities have no one.

@Pat. According to the security firm’s complaint, they reserved the extended stay hotel room in their name. It is also my understanding that security ran errands for GZ, paying out of their pocket and then getting reimbursed by O’Mara.

If that is true, then current security is ordering food and paying for it using their own money then waiting for reimbursement. There might be another lawsuit on the horizon.

we must remember the defendants attorney reported receiving a life threatening phone call earlier on and is also wearing the bullet proof vest purchased by his defendant. I would think the defendant did’nt f’up all by his lone some self. O’hamburger burglar must bare the brunt of his decision to play the defendants game of fearing for his own lifes safety…

I’d like to see the police reports of these so-called death threats. i don’t think they’ve had *credible* threats, more likely they’ve had BS harassing calls/emails about GZ turning himself in from early on before he was arrested.

He also had Osterman telling him right away that he needed to fear friends and family of TM and needed to leave his home right away…….even though TM had not be ID’d yet and fogen’s name had not been released. He is now living in his own cage, afraid of his own shadow. Osterman describes one situation, when they were both still at his home, and he comes running back into the house and locks all the doors convinced that he had been found. All it was, was a minority couple who was visiting a neighbor of his.

I am a decent American. “The Suspect” was not; he had a very shady past and then he savagely attacked me and got himself shot. If you don’t believe me you’re a reverse racist. God will punish you. And I might have to shoot you, too.

Fogen, cross examining Chris Serino as a prosecution witness:

F: Is it true that you were a homicide detective on 2/26/2012?
CS: Yes.
F: Make that Yessir, Sir, OK?
CS: Yessir.
F: That’s better. I thought so. And when I defended Sherman Ware because the NAACP had no time for him, were you a homicide detective back then?
CS: Yessir.
F: But are you a homicide detective now?
CS: Nossir.
F: So is it fair to say that you made a big mistake trying to get me charged with a crime?

BDLR: Objection, Your Honor, the witness is not qualified as an expert on the size of mistakes.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, there is only one way you can vote now. You saw Detective Christopher Serino up here on the witness stand totally confused, trying to keep all his lies straight, and in the end all he could say was Nossir. And you still have before you all the evidence of me being a decent American. I mentored PBuh-lack kids in a bad neighborhood because there was nobody else to do it. I stood up for Sherman Ware because there was nobody else to do it. And I helped Trayvon Martin get himself shot because there was no one else to do it.

Here is video of Al Sharpton on TV. F%&kin Coons. I mean I said Punks. Because he was on TV, you got to believe it is self defense. I rest my case.

Bernie: Your honor. That is a ridiculous argument and I dont get how he even submitted it to trial. I object on grounds of Fogenhatness.

Fogenhats:

Your honor. I am young, confused, and betrayed. That is why I had to kill that kid. I mean the kid who was only a few years younger than me. I mean adult.

Judge Nelson:

Well Fogenhats, you are definitely confused. I do not see how Trayvon, the victim betrayed you by walking home from 7-11 with Skittles and Ice Tea. You are young but you are the adult in the situation.

Fogenhats:

I’d like to motion to only be cross examined by the judge, I mean cross examined by no one now.

Bernie:

Your honor, perhaps we should let him have Omara back

Omara:

Hell No. I am supposed to be paid to be a lawyer. I actually had to pay out of my own pocket to represent him. He’s guilty anyways.

We need to do a pass around with a script. One starts an opening line and hands it off to a designated 2nd and so on. It is a blast !
Each player must play the part of specific parties. So Jun could be Judge Nelson, SheLie, & BDLR. MMPat could be Fogen, Singleton and Papa Z or however one wants to organize it.

Lets go for it….might make a great screenplay. You can use quotes from any of the players and make it up as you see fit.

Those folks are hopelessly stupid. Do they REALLY think that GZ was JUSTIFIED in his actions that night? Do they even know what “evidence” means? I went there and left a few comments of my own. Their story that GZ is the victim here must be an inside joke, and I don’t get it.

Bahama Mama, You have guts, it’s obvious that even though they claim they have researched every bit of evidence they assume a lot and cite it as a fact. Z supporters like that are typical…….when they can’t defend they insult.

Sorry YAHTC…I had no idea it was the “the conservative treehouse” when I first wrote “the last refuge” (no idea how I wandered in there) I’m not up to speed yet…I’m still trying to figure out what the heck “fogen” stands for…
🙂

I just went to that treehouse site posted here,I’d never been there before and after reading how they describe those of us who want justice for Trayvon I’m upset.

They do reveal things about themselves, in posting about this case, and for some, even more explicitly about their own personal issues if you read back over their posting at various sites. Many see themselves as “victims” in life, with past issues such as abuse as a child, alcoholic father etc etc etc… it gives them a jaded and warped view of life and other people.

I’m the product of abuse,I do not see myself as a victim. I carry scars in my mind and body from an abusive mother and although I never really felt hate for her.I left home when still in my teens. I did in later years come to pity her. Much later I realized she had never had a card or a call from a friend. She never had a friend. Can you even imagine that kind of life? I can’t. My father was at work when most of the beatings,both physical and mental took place,but once he arrived home and saw where I had bled all over the stairs and he went afte her and told her it would never happen again,or else. I’m the mother of three,grandmother of three and reasonably well adjusted. I’m a student of the Book and was teaching a ladies Bible class until illness got in the way. I’m somewhat better now and hope to get back to the gym and the class. My view of life and other people is compassionate. I believe everyone has free will and you will reap what you sow,if not in this life than when you come before the judgement. I don’t push my believe in God on anyone,it’s mine and I will defend it until death,with love and prayer.
Okay I’m off my soapbox. May you enjoy health and happiness in this new year.

Thanks Tommysmom! Recently at the Last Refuge (at the CTH) there was a long rant about how we “Trayvonites” see ourselves as perpetual victims, hence the reason why we support Trayvon. Hmmm? We leave our victimhood as soon as we start to fight the evils that produce injustice. So, no I don’t think we see ourselves as perpetual victims. But once you suffer an injustice, you either wrap yourself with it and stagnate OR you fight against the injustice and grow. And the best growth of all is compassion. I can’t say I’m a great role model, but I DO have compassion with many of the players in this case. The perspectives presented here have changed my evaluations more than once. Thank you for being here! 🙂

LMAO…true, they do enjoy attacking when they know it’s a female. I have an “admirer” over on Newsvine that follows me from article to article, attacking me, but won’t respond to any “male” commenter. Sad really.

Bahama Mama……That’s exactly why I’ve NEVER posted any comments on any of the pro-fogen sites. I get enough spam in my mail. I don’t need to have them harassing me with hate e-mail. One time I saw someone, who was a nurse, post something very intelligent only to have them condemn her for trying to be like a know-it-all…….their comments to her only reinforced my opinion of them as backwards knuckledraggers.

@YAHTC, I’m pretty sure they have no interest in the actual evidence in the case. They seem to just want to rant and rave, they think GZ was justified, and that’s that. It’s hard to talk to those type of people, they just want to shut you down…hence the put downs, calling me an idiot, loser, troll…etc. All you can do is laugh, imagine their dismay when GZ is sentenced? Much like their dismay when Obama was re-elected. LMAO
Just found MrP over on the GPS monitor thread 🙂

They seem to just want to rant and rave, they think GZ was justified, and that’s that.

They don’t support GZ. They use that blog to denigrate Blacks, Trayvon, his parents, witnesses, AG Holder, President Obama, and blogs such as this one. They build conspiracy theories and conclude that if this or that can be discovered about persons who are not on trial, that the case will be dismissed. I’ve only gone there when referred for certain research material and the stench of their words is choking.

I can honestly see him taking second chair. Except West seems to be the details guy and has not been part of the created MOM circus. Maybe MOM will be fired by the fogen and he will team up with West. Fogen will not speak for himself. He likes it when others defend his actions.

seallison~ that is a very good and workable scenario. In a way, it might actually help in this helpless case. MOM could salvage what little reputation he has left without an actual LOSS on his resume. West has not been part of the circus, as you mentioned so no one will really pay much attention to him.

And the GZ media disaster could slither off into silence. Maybe the virulent racists will shut up once it’s out of the spotlight. And Team Trayvon can work quietly and forcefully in the background to ensure that Trayvon gets justice.

Only an imbecile would entertain defending themselves in a M2 case, but then we are talking, here, about the dolt who spotted, stalked, confronted, and fatally shot an unarmed teenager walking to his dad’s place.

This particular defendant has yet to demonstrate any common sense in important issues … or even trivial aspects of his life.

Who brags about having a degree from a community college when, indeed, he’s flunked key courses and is several credits short of completing anything at the school? And to top it off, then lets an acquaintance toss a “graduation” party for him?

Pity the kids, if they do exist, who were ever forced to spend an hour being mentored by the defendant or his spouse, of questionable integrity and mentality herself.

That leads to a question: If the defendant ever was involved in a formal program as a mentor (a mindblowing thought), could it have been via some sort of community service program tied to getting his record expunged on assaulting the undercover law enforcement officer?

I won’t even comment on the defendant’s chatter at the Sanford cop shop where he blathers on about no longer wanting to be a police office, now that he aspires to be a judge.

c’mon, talk about it pleaseeee!!lol it’s really funny!! he thinks he should be a judge because his cousin went to jail? huh? oh and that gz coulda talked to him more about being a upstanding merican.!!!LOLOL that is the most outrageous BS i think!

wait, except the thought he could have EVER been a MENTOR to anyone besides maybe a pet rock!

But that lawyer Sonner guy says he’s talked to them!!! I would bet EVERY PENNY in my life that he’s flat out, point blank LYING!! he’s lying.
i think Xena explained once -made me cry laughing so hard, how this is a particularly absurd suggestion!

Fagin is described as “grotesque” to look at. He is the leader of a group of children, the Artful Dodger and Charley Bates among them, whom he teaches to make their livings by pickpocketing and other criminal activities in exchange for a roof over their heads.He is said to have already made criminals out of “scores” of children who grow up to live—or die—committing the same crimes as adults.

I think idiot and imbecile and other names are a bit harsh. Fogen’s not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he’s not the dullest either. He seems more clueless and clumsy than stupid, really, until that sociopathic streak comes out and that weird “I think I tricked you” grin lights up. That’s what’s most disturbing about him.

Two Sides to Every Story: Harsh? Shooting an unarmed teen minding his own business … now that’s harsh. Especially when he dies.

More to the point, however, is that I never called the defendant an imbecile. I did say it would take an imbecile to entertain defending themselves against an M2 charge. I went on to note we were discussing GZ, not renowned for common sense.

Also what’s not known is whether he’ll attempt to legally represent himself. If he does, then we can start speculating on his IQ.

I. personally, am guessing the defendant could test out above idiocy, imbecile level, or the top moron level of 70, but not by all that much. A genius, he ain’t.

@Trained Observer -“Pity the kids, if they do exist, who were ever forced to spend an hour being mentored by the defendant or his spouse, of questionable integrity and mentality herself.”

One wonders what other motives might have been at hand during fogen’s mentoring lark. With cousin having accused him of molesting her for a decade (from the time she was six years old), I have no hesitation in placing darker motives to his desire to “mentor” children. I wonder if “mentoring” is the term he used when he molested his cousin. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to this predator.

abbyj: Yes, what motives indeed. Another possibility is the feeling of superiority he might get by his “mentoring” of mere children. If he can’t get that supremo superior feeling with adults in his midst, then he sets sights on kids. (Am still wondering if his alleged mentoring activity was tied to a formal community service commitment mandated by the court in his earlier scrapes the law.

Ted Bundy had attended, but did not graduate law school, and was respected by the judge when during his sentencing he told him: “You’re an intelligent young man. You’d have made a good lawyer, and I would have loved to have you practice in front of me, but you went another way, partner. Take care of yourself.”

If he had left Trayvon alone in the first place he wouldn’t be in the mess he created. He has never taken responsibility for anything he has done,mainly because people have helped him get out of trouble.Going by his history. He has always done something more serious after getting away with things he’s done before. This time he crossed a line that should never be crossed when he killed an innocent unarmed kid who was screaming for help and begging for his life. This time no one can get him out of this one. I hope he does try to represent himself. He’ll just be helping the prosecution.

the killer had so many opportunities to leave this poor kid alone and unmolested..heck, he could have left him molested and alive had he just had a heart capable of being wrenched by those awful screams

If you look at the defendant’s history, he lacks self control, and is a very selfish person who acts only for his own needs. The defendant also has twisted needs, and this is proven by his need to be looked well in the public and be seen as a white person, his need to molest his own cousin, his need to be racist towards Mexicans and blacks, his need to stalk and harass people, etc…

Well Karma is a bitch because all his actions have come back to him…

He said the police he assaulted did not identify themselves and now the same is said to him and used against him in court, for example

Jun … by happenstance, I also walked in at a friend’s house on Dateline’s George Michael cold case murder report. I’m with you and the actual jurors: it was a big turnoff to see the defense try to malign the witness for his collegegiate social habits … and to suggest he was an adult lime-light seeker in the murder case itself.

As a juror in a civil case (not the murder case I alluded to some days back), I saw the defense try to paint several witnesses roped into the situation as alcoholics, addicts, and losers. It was heartbreaking to watch these blue-collar workers (ditch diggers, etc.) smeared like that on the stand, even when they admited to the accusations. The defense didn’t have a leg to stand on fact -wise for themselves, so rendering verdict was comparatively easy. But had things been murkier, you can bet the way defense attorneys had treated witnesses would have not have boded well.

Memo to O’Mara: Think twice, thrice and several tmore imes before you attempt to malign Trayvon …. OR his family, friends, teachers, neighbors or acquaintances at trial. Some may not be the most polished on the stand, but you’ll regret it if you make fun of them on the stand .

i don’t think he would want to defend himself w/o a lawyer. but i bet he’d wanna be second chair since he thinks smarter than everyone, that way he could still be the BOSS, and get to talk in court w/o getting questioned, and he can jump up a object when BDLR says he must have slipped and hit his head on a pile of dog shit when he went chasing after this 17 y.o kid, and that’s how he got the boo boos and animal DNA on his noggin!

but i think he so used to using people and having all his legal trouble taken care of he’s more than happy and perfectly comfortable imposing himself on anyone he see fit! after all, none of this is his fault!!

i don’t think he would want to defend himself w/o a lawyer. but i bet he’d wanna be second chair since he thinks smarter than everyone, that way he could still be the BOSS,…

Oh yes. He already tried that at the hearing on altering conditions of bond. He wrote notes, passed them to West who passed them to O’Mara. When O’Mara went back to argue, his tune changed to presenting GZ as a victim. It’s on stateoftheinternet Youtube channel, Zimmerman hearing pt 6 and 7.

is there a way Prof can get that here? a least a live chat box..cas ok, there’s plenty of places to watch online but not all chat…ummm

Chats for Word Press blogs are rather complicated and not all themes support them. Yahoo removed the chat function from their groups. Meebo is probably the best resource now for group chat that is controlled.

See, that’s something I hadn’t caught that you did!!! Yeah “wander around” speaks volumes. BDLR is really protecting GZ from being profiled, stalked, followed, and killed by someone who thinks wandering around makes you a suspicious asshole.

yep BDLR said the *wandering around free* 7 times in a 6 minute period. he never uses another descriptor!!LOLOL

but then i had hear omar say *he got himself shot* again, and that makes me wanna kick that stupid grin off his face!

but it’s so weird that all this trash talk about Trayvon mighta been some of the best ammunition against everyone who’s done it! i really think omar and west will forever pay for the decisions they made in this case. and i just know gz will never get anymore money or support, maybe not directly caused by the demonizing of Trayvon, but added to his other lies and dirty tricks, it has helped to turn people off from his cause!

i wonder if ol Frances is back on twitter? pansy ass punk! let’s see how long it’ll be till we see him back in jail? or, in the hospital, for running his stupid idiot mouth to the wrong brother!
i know he’s all brave now for some crazy reason. it might be that Sanford Florida really has that effect on racist idiots? i mean where else is someone gonna get away talking like that in public??

It turns people off when people trash a dead person or any of the witnesses helping out the victim…

I watched Dateline NBC and they aired the Michael George murder case, and his lawyers tried to trash one of the witnesses because the witness smoked marijuana and drank liquor sometimes at parties in college. The jury was interviewed afterward and they did not like when the defense lawyers did that to the witness and felt it was low and pointless and was more of an attack then actual evidence.

So on top of pissing people off in public on any chats on this case by spamming the crap out of the chats with hate speech against blacks and the victim, their actions in court will piss off people ie the jurors. I believe their actions already are pissing off potential jurors.

When Omara says Trayvon got himself shot, the victim did get himself shot, but it was no fault of his own. The victim was simply unable to get away from the crazy stranger aka the defendant, who kept stalking and chasing him angrily, targeting the victim, and would not let the kid go and be free with liberty, and terrorized the kid, and then the defendant shot the kid. It was all because of the defendant’s actions and intent that the victim got himself shot with a Kel Tec. The victim’s only con was he was not strong enough to defend himself against the defendant’s stalking and assault. Because of that, the defendant, got himself into trouble.

The victim only brought the trouble on himself, because he was unable to avoid the defendant’s crazy stalking, the defendant’s targeting of the victim, the defendant’s assault of the victim, the defendant’s twisted mentality and anger towards the victim, the defendant’s ineptitude towards empathy and courtesy for the victim, and the defendant’s lack of candor when it comes to the defendant’s constant instigation of victimizing others by bullying and assaulting and manipulating terrible situations for the defendant’s targets.

Right Jun. It’s like saying;
“I got myself ran over by a car because I had the walk light and when I stepped off the curb, a car making a right turn sped up and knocked me over its hood into the windshield. Then it stopped, reversed, and ran over me. It then told the police that I broke their windshield and they ran over me to prevent me from getting away.”

While it has no relevancy to the case, it does reveal lots about his character. GZ is a grown man who decided that he would attend college while working full-time and having a wife. Most adult college students realize when they have bitten off more than they can chew. They change their major, or take one class per semester rather than 2 or 3. Or, they take a bird course along with another class.

What they don’t do is become a one-man NW show while failing college classes. How many hours are there in a day, especially when you’re working full-time?

GZ should have been home studying rather than prowling for opportunity to use his gun.

There can be no “fair” justice here……….the only thing that would be “fair” is for fogen to exchange places in the grave with Trayvon…..THAT would be fair……..

It hurts me to no end….the future Trayvon had in front of him…….only to be taken from him by a looser / failure at everything he’d attempted. Failed at being a Marine….failed at being a cop…

And Race…..I don’t think it will even take a year, let lone 2 once he’s in the yard…..lets see what kind of tough guy he is then?

A few questions for the Prof….Can his statement to Serrino that he DID HAVE an AA degree?….And also the party he had in his honor (he has none) for his graduation be used against him to show him for the liar he is?

Oh i cannot WAIT till gz get’s his ass to one of these hard core prisons in florida! only the private ones have AC! and i think those were federal. LOLO
i looked them up earlier this year trying to figure out which one i’m gonna be reading about once gz gets there!

the guys up there in the big house aren’t gonna like how gz played the system! he ain’t gonna be accepted by the white supremacists, the hispancis won’t appreciate his bigotry towards them, and pedophiles will be mad he killed a beautiful young boy!!

i always thought he shoulda saved up some of that money he got to buy protection in prison! that way he’d at least have some time to find his group of fellow losers ( maybe there’s a gang of cowardly child killers he’ll relate to?) so he won’t get beat down by everyone everyday until they get bored with him!.
now look at him, no money no friends!
no one ever told him the old saying; pick on someone his own size and leave the kids alone!! welp, it’s you’re turn now gz where you gettin the courage to go step to someone now? i’d love to see him try that shit up with these mofos!!LOLOL

Hi MountainManPat! I see your new avatar. Which Lady is that? 🙂 I don’t think GZ has the guts to commit suicide. His entire life has been a life of a coward. I doubt he would be able to place a gun facing himself without wetting his trousers!

I don’t think GZ has the guts to commit suicide. His entire life has been a life of a coward.

GZ is afraid of death. He heard Trayvon’s fear. GZ shot Trayvon in the heart, and then heard and smelled him die. He knows that he killed Trayvon, but he does not know what Trayvon felt. GZ has not lived a life where death can visit him and he can go without regrets. He’s afraid of what he will feel, and according to his religion, he’s afraid of what awaits him on the other side.

Xena~ And yet that fear doesn’t motivate him to come clean? I was raised Roman Catholic, so I know they teach the only way to get forgiveness is to confess, and NOT just to the priest! He must pay for his crime. Unless ol’ GZ thinks he can hoodwink St. Peter at the Gates to let him in? 🙂

gz would never put himself out of his misery. he’s still confident in his own mindlessness!!
he’s still under the impression he’s gonna have a great life after all this nonsense is over. just listen to the jail tapes. i mean he’s absolutely jubilant- even AFTER he’s been arrested for murder 2, and IN JAIL!!

“A few questions for the Prof….Can his statement to Serrino that he DID HAVE an AA degree?….And also the party he had in his honor (he has none) for his graduation be used against him to show him for the liar he is?

@shannoninmiami, and last but not *LEAST* the *brothers* definitely won’t accept his ass because of what he did to one of their own. also, I could care less if he has any support system in the hoosegow any ways because, he is being sent to the state pen to pay for his crime of murdering an innocent African American kid. a kid who caused him no harm what so ever. Trayvon was walking back home from the store minding his own business when he encountered this *FOOL* with a gun. although he had no knowledge of this creepy Thugboat having a gun, he just continued to proceed on his way home.

I will always believe that Fogen had his courage in his hand the entire time while he was following this kid. Fogen finally trapped Trayvon and it was then and only then, that he realized this fool had a gun. Fogen held this kid at gun point and, there were a few other adults who saw what he was doing and they never attempted to help this kid even though he looked them in the eye with *TEARS* coming from his own eyes and asked for help, which they did not give him.

These people will live with this for the rest of their lives because, Trayvon’s blood is on their hands just as well as being on Fogen’s. how could they do what they did, when they ignored the cries for help from this child? my heart fills with sadness just sitting here typing this. RIP little brother, justice will be yours and I LOVE YOU ALWAYS. As long as GOD is for you, no one can be against you!

Since fogen is such a control-freak, and such a narcissist, and thinks that he’s so important, and demands to be respected……I feel that the best punishment would be to deny him the opportunity to have an audience that he might try to convince that he’s a “somebody”….I think solitary confinement would be the best-worst punishment for fogen…he would never again be able to con anyone into believing how powerful he was….just a little man, all alone, by himself.

Pat…..In GP he will, in all probability, find a few other losers like himself, that he may be able to impress with his bs. There is a possibility that nothing will happen to him by others. He’s nothing but a bulls#!++er who needs an audience who will believe his crap. He thrives on this. That’s why denying the sociopath any brainless followers (or friends) would be quite a punishment for him. Yes, I thought it would be great for him to always have to look over his shoulder, wondering if the “suspecious guys” were coming after him but, I still think that he would most likely find a group that would tolerate him at the very least, and form friendships at the most. I don’t want him to have the comfort of a group or friendships. I want him to be alone to wallow in his own bs.

Professor, if Fogen testifies in his own defense, then he puts his own credibility into play, wouldn’t BDLR be able to use those lies against him to impeach his credibility then? I presumed ANY statement he had made at any point in time could be used for that purpose if he testified, and particularly, statements made TO the police during the investigation of the crime that he is on trial for. Why couldn’t his lies (gratuitous lies) be used in that way?

That would mean that at such a hearing, it would be GZ’s word vs the evidence. The evidence shows that he is lying, while rules of NW and the law say he had no role to play that night, other than to call the police and either wait for them or leave. Anything else will be GZ’s self serving attempt at creating justification for his actions. Of course, there simply are no recognizable justifications for his actions.

So, as if it wasn’t bad enough, that GZ loses to the evidence and the law, he will be proven to be a brazen baldfaced liar to boot, meaning he hasn’t sufficient credibility to issue any explanations without them being confirm able.

O’Mara knows that he can say many things, but he cannot erase the records that have been created. The last thing he wants to do is, create another record of failure, via a SYG immunity hearing, that could find it’s way before a jury.

So, his only way forward is to find witnesses, through whom he can present his defense. Such witnesses are few and far between. Nor can GZ be used to fill in the gaps. In short, there simply isn’t a way to mount a coherent defense in an immunity hearing, and a loss would have a terrible impact on the defense teams psychology. Which is more than reason enough to avoid it at all costs.

I figure he’ll be placed in a segregation unit (Mental Health) , and not in gen pop. Funny, I’ve been told the most dangerous place in prison is the cafeteria where there’s utensils, carry trays and hot steam tables.

I think it might be good for us to consider the grace and gifts we have been gifted with and also our positive actions that have these gifts at their core.

gz seems to LACK such gifts of character and mental health. I and various Trayvon supporters have noted his ADHD, his rage issues, his deceit, his tendency to be a bully, his inability to be successful, his sociopath-like tendencies, and his depravity February 26, 2012.

We all should be grateful we do not possess such a “wicked” concoction of characteristics.

Would it not be better for us to concentrate on seeking legal justice for Trayvon without having vengeful thoughts of hoping gz “gets his” (payback fate) in prison?

Justice, to me, is a matter of karma. Karma is immutable, so all actions have a corresponding reaction. But there’s also no such thing as permanent evil or punishment – all negative karma can be purified either the long way through suffering or a faster way through choosing to transform oneself into a better person.. So Fogen will meet whatever is due him naturally, but the choice is his whether to make it difficult or easy. By the looks of him last we saw him, he was taking a more difficult path and not working on the transformation part!

and ADHD has nothing to do with criminal actions.
even though he happens to be on the HIGHEST dose.
BTW, you have to get your aderall each month in the form of a PAPER script. you can’t have re-fills.

another thing i just saw the NEW Doctor records/ has anyone seen these new lies???
i can’t wait till BDLR questions this Dr.Office about the NEW sight un seen diagnosis!! these are SUPER X-Ray Vision Doctors!!!LOLO

YAHTC~ I understand what you are saying. It is a spiritual ideal to be compassionate for the perpretator as well as the victim. BUT we are merely human beings, and sometimes we NEED to actually see justice and its consequences, or at least imagine those consequences happen or else we lose our faith in justice. In the end, in spite of GZ’s lack of character, he still has free will as do we all, and he has to be held accountable for his choices.

I want to see justice done and gz go to jail if the jury hands down a guilty verdict.

Yet, I believe vengeance should NOT enter the picture. I want to go the route that the American justice system provides.

I thought by linking the Joan Baez song with the line “there but for fortune go you or I”…. that those words might cool down the posting that was going on about gz being harmed by fellow inmates in prison.

I thought I could cool down that kind of vengeful posting…..by pointing out that we should count our lucky stars that we as individuals do not have the wicked combination of human and mental traits that George has which include:

rage, deceit, bullying, failure, sociopathic tendencies, etc.

I DO think that gz CHOSE to commit an act of depravity. He chose to be depraved when he shot Trayvon to death. For that he should receive the full sentence that the justice system provides if he is found guilty.

And, by the way, I did write:

.

I am not saying that I don’t have bursts of being upset and angry over what gz did to Trayvon. I do………….but I redirect my thoughts to constructively seeking justice for Trayvon.

YAHTC~ Sorry! I didn’t mean to offend! Yes, I understood your reasoning, and I agree, But I think we all need to vent sometimes. I do have compassion for Shellie, even though she made her bed and has GZ in it. I think she should escape now wheil it’s clear that staying with him is going to invite more misery into her life. But that’s about it.

YAHTC~ LOL! A number ONE in my book! I sometimes don’t like computer discussions precisely because you can’t hear the nuances or see the non verbal body language. I just meant earlier that yes, the moral high road is one we SHOULD take. But we all need to be base sometimes, to keep our sense of sanity. And you are right to remind us. 🙂

I’m with Jun and elcymoo, it would be downright gut busting to watching GZ handle his own case. That said I’d rather not see him with any wiggle room to cry foul if convicted. GZ cannot even manage to steal money properly so he sure as heck is not going to be able representing himself. Neither his current judge nor the last would take his nonsense(and there would be enough to drown all of Florida.)

Funny. I know of a felony case where the defendant insisted that the court lacked jurisdiction and he wanted to represent himself. He tied up the court for over 3 yrs with a series of motions for reconsideration and appeals. The court continually advised him to file a financial affidavit for indigence so an attorney could be appointed, or to hire an attorney.

When the defendant was convicted, he filed an appeal and argued that he was not aware of some of the rules and that lack of knowledge deprived him of getting a fair trial. (sigh)

He went all the way to the Supreme Court who denied review without opinion.

I admit it would be good television if he represented himself. I believe if he did he would get objected a lot and held in contempt, and probably get new charges for trying to threaten witnesses.

How would he look over the evidence though? Would that not put witnesses at risk, if information was leaked to the defendant, if he were to represent himself? The guy has a history of instigating things and violating people’s civil rights, and attacking people, so I do not see what would stop him, with perhaps maybe more charges.

I agree with you on him blaming everyone else. Even his followers do the same thing, and in fact, I would not be surprised if Fogenhats was talking to me on facebook trying to convince people his nonsense.

Even with big smarts and plenty of research, I think most people would be unlikely to defend themselves in case like Fogen’s. The stakes are much too high. Not to mention that he’s unlikely to walk unless there are some surprise technical difficulties or some failure on the part of the defense to prove their case.