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Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Read 297163 times)

Over the past several months, I have spent considerable time researching--and trying to reverse engineer and clone--a typical “original” pizza from Papa John’s. I selected Papa John’s as the target of my efforts not only because it is generally considered to make a better pizza than its major competitors (according to customer satisfaction ratings) but also because I am actually able to buy sample pizzas from Papa John’s, watch the pizzas being made (and ask occasional questions), analyze the pizzas, dissect them, eat them, and compare them with my own results. This is a luxury that I have rarely enjoyed in my past reverse engineering/cloning projects. Papa John’s pizzas are also popular among many of our members. So, developing a workable PJ clone dough formulation may help them satisfy their cravings for PJ pizzas without having to go to a PJ store, and at much lower cost.

I should mention at this point that my objective has not been to make a clone that is better than a Papa John’s pizza, as several members, notably Randy, have attempted to do. Rather, my sole objective has been to try to make a PJ clone pizza that comes as close as possible to an authentic pizza made by Papa John’s, yet realizing that I cannot make an identical pizza because I don’t have the right equipment and the exact ingredients that PJ uses. In my case, I selected a standard PJ 14” “original” pepperoni pizza as my benchmark clone pizza.

In the next post, I will describe what I have learned in general about Papa John’s dough, together with observations that I believe are relevant to the process of developing a useful clone dough formulation for home application. That clone dough formulation, and my recommended implementation of it, is presented in Reply 2. A sample photo of the most recent pizza made using that clone dough formulation is shown below.

The PJ Dough. It is well known, and reported by PJ’s itself in various company documents--including official documents filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission--that the dough balls used by PJ stores are made at company-owned commissaries (there are currently 11 such commissaries in the U.S., known as Quality Control Centers) and delivered fresh to the stores by truck twice a week. Having worked fairly extensively with long-lived doughs (see, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html), I believe that the only way that this can be done and fit the twice-a-week delivery schedule is to prepare the dough balls under tightly controlled environmental conditions (for consistency at the store level), using small amounts of yeast (to slow down the fermentation), and taking steps to insure low finished dough temperatures, especially in the storage of the dough balls and during transit of the dough balls in trucks to stores.

An additional related consideration is that, as a practical matter, the dough balls made to fit a several day cycle are unlikely to be usable within the first couple of days after being made. This is because of insufficient fermentation (and very little rise). So, assuming that the dough balls are usable starting with the third day, the dough formulation will have to be designed to accommodate a usable lifespan for the dough balls of at least six days from the time the dough balls are made. The individual stores have commercial coolers, so some dough balls are likely to be usable beyond six days but, for practical commercial and quality reasons, perhaps for not more than eight days. For my clone experiments, I used five days as the window of usability in establishing my PJ clone dough formulation as presented in Reply 2. It is possible to shorten or lengthen that window but, as noted in the opening post, my objective is to try to replicate the PJ dough to the greatest extent possible in a home setting. Modifications can--and no doubt will--come later.

Other important aspects of the PJ dough that need to be understood to make a credible PJ clone dough are 1) the hydration of the dough, and 2) the amounts of sugar and oil used in a typical PJ dough.

Having watched how the PJ dough balls are handled in their stores, and also in YouTube videos such as the one at

I have concluded that the hydration for PJ doughs is low relative to the rated absorption of the flour used (typically a high protein flour). I would estimate a hydration of around 55-58%. Dough balls in this hydration range will be fairly easy to shape and stretch, slap and toss, and experience few extensibility problems.

The abovementioned hydration range is also consistent with a recommended hydration value (56.5%) given by Tom Lehmann in his version of a PJ dough “clone” at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4497.msg37615.html#msg37615. What I have seen personally supports that level of hydration. In my store visits, I saw dough balls that were clearly overfermented and very gassy, as well as dough balls that were used right out of the cooler without any warm-up. But, in both instances, the dough balls had a good balance between elasticity and extensibility and were easy to open up, especially after being docked with a simple plastic dough docker. Once docked, the skins were slapped from hand to hand a few times to fully open them up and tossed in the air one or more times before being placed on pizza screens.

If the hydration levels were much higher than noted above, I think PJ’s would experience many problems with extensibility in the preparation of their skins. That is something they can ill afford with a work staff that is prone to high turnover, not to mention the amount of training and experience that their pizza makers would need to develop the skills to successfully handle high-hydration doughs. As it is, I was told by a PJ pizza maker that it takes about three weeks of fairly steady work to be able to master the process of preparing skins.

Further evidence of the relatively low hydration of the PJ doughs comes from the baked PJ pizzas themselves. In the official photos that I have seen at the PJ website (http://order.papajohns.com/pizzas/order.html), the PJ pizzas look to have fairly large and distinct rims. However, the pizzas that I bought from PJ’s did not have particularly large and distinct rims. Also, they were not particularly open and airy with a lot of irregularly sized and shaped voids. From what I have read and observed, the rim of a typical baked PJ pizza is about ˝” thick and the rest of the pizza crust is about Ľ” thick (see http://everything2.com/e2node/How%2520a%2520pizza%2520gets%2520made). When I experimented with PJ dough clone hydrations above 60%, the rims were much larger and the crumb was puffier and more open and airy. This, again, leads me to believe that the 55-58% hydration range is a plausible one—both at PJ’s and for a PJ dough clone. For my purposes in developing the dough clone formulation discussed in Reply 2 below, I used a hydration of 56.5% (the Lehmann hydration value).

A dominant feature of the PJ dough, alluded to above, is the amount of sugar and oil used in the dough. From my analysis, there are large quantities of both, and it is that combination that contributes to the characteristic soft and tender quality of a typical PJ crust and crumb. While I agree with Tom Lehmann’s numbers on hydration, I believe he is low in both sugar and oil. I believe his numbers will work (with the amount of yeast he recommends) but not for a dough that will have a useful life of six or more days. Two days--maybe three--would be my best guess. In my clone experiments, when I tested a combination of high amount of yeast and a lot of sugar, I found that the dough fermented too fast and became a bit too extensible (though entirely manageable). To extend the dough fermentation window without reducing the amount of sugar I felt was needed in the dough, I found it necessary to use small amounts of yeast, along with relatively low dough storage temperatures. As noted below in Reply 2, my starting numbers were 0.14% IDY, 7.3% oil (soybean) and 4.8% sugar. For salt, I used the standard Lehmann value of 1.75%.

In order to produce a credible PJ clone dough formulation for the benchmark 14” pizza, it was necessary to determine how much dough to use. From nutrition information available from PJ’s at its website at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition.html, as well as the amounts of sauce and cheese reportedly used by PJ’s (see Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,994.msg38390.html#msg38390), weights of actual 14” pepperoni pizzas purchased from PJ’s, and from weights of the sauces, cheeses and toppings for my own PJ pepperoni pizza clones, I concluded that a typical PJ 14” pizza uses around 21 ounces of dough, and possibly a little bit more. To test my numbers, when I sauced, cheesed, topped (with pepperoni slices), and baked my last pepperoni clone pizza (the one shown in Reply 2), it weighed 35.34 ounces (after baking). PJ’s own nutrition information suggests that a fully baked pepperoni pizza weighs 1024 grams (8 slices x 128 g./slice), or a bit over 36 ounces. In my case, I took the weight of my fully baked pizza while it was hot rather than at room temperature, which, according to November, would have provided a more accurate comparison with the published PJ weight data that is based on room-temperature pizzas. So, the numbers I used for the PJ clone dough formulation may need adjustment once I do a more technically correct comparison. Nonetheless, based on the results I achieved, I believe that my numbers are reasonably good.

As an interesting side note, one of the things I learned about the PJ dough balls that surprised me is how they are delivered to PJ’s stores. I assumed that the dough balls were delivered to the PJ stores by PJ’s itself in company-owned trucks. As it turns out, the dough balls, as well as the pizza sauce, cheese, meat toppings and smallware, are all delivered from the PJ Quality Control Centers to the PJ stores by UPS. It is not the UPS that we are familiar with as individuals but rather a logistics subsidiary of UPS that specializes in solving complex logistical problems of its clients. In PJ’s case, the trucks bear the Papa John’s insignia and the drivers wear Papa John’s uniforms but all of the delivery aspects, including how to properly maintain dough temperatures during delivery runs, are handled by UPS’s logistics unit. For those who are interested in this facet of the PJ story, it is explained in a highly informative manner at http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2002/04/29/focus9.html and at http://www.knowledgevibes.com/articleDetails.php?id=1228&cat_id=31&subcat_id=92&third_id=198. There is also a good writeup of the history and development of Papa John's as a business at http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Papa-Johns-International-Inc-Company-History.html.

With the foregoing posts as background, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following recommended PJ dough clone formulation, which, based on the results I achieved, I believe represents a good starting point to make a very good PJ clone dough and pizza:

First, I used King Arthur bread flour (KABF)—only because I do not have any high-gluten flour on hand. Although a high-quality bread flour, like the KABF, is a very good choice based on my results using that flour, my recommendation to others is to consider using a high-gluten flour if it is available. Typically, a high-gluten flour has a protein content of around 14%, as compared with 12.7% for the KABF. Although it is not entirely clear what flour PJ’s is currently using (it is a proprietary blend), in the past it has used high-gluten flour to prepare its dough. Its current flour is described only as being a “high protein” flour (see, for example, http://www.uppereast.com/papajohns.html).

For those who use the KABF and wish to supplement it with vital wheat gluten (VWG) to achieve an overall protein content comparable to a high-gluten flour, which is a method that I often use, I suggest that November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ be used to determine the amount of VWG to use to achieve the targeted protein content of the blend. If I were to do this using the Hodgson Mill brand of VWG, the amount of KABF to use to achieve a targeted protein content of 14% is 12.20 oz. (345.83 g.), and the amount of VWG to use is 0.30 oz. (8.6 g.), or about 2.85 t. The comparable numbers for those using the Bob’s Red Mill brand of VWG are 12.24 oz. (347.04 g.) of KABF, and 0.26 oz. (7.39 g.), or 2.96 t., of VWG.

Second, the amount of IDY (instant dry yeast) used in the above formulation is quite small--equal to a bit less than 3/16 t., or just under three of the “pinch” measuring spoons for those who have mini-teaspoon sets such as shown, for example, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. For those who do not have mini measuring spoons, using 1/8 t. plus almost half again should come pretty close.

Third, as noted in the above table, I used a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5%, to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That number turned out to be a reliable number.

I elected to use a fairly simple method to prepare the dough. I started by adding the water (I used bottled spring water), at a temperature of 55 degrees F, to the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt and sugar to the water and stirred to fully dissolve, about one minute. The oil was then added to the mixer bowl, followed by all of the flour. (Normally, I would sift the flour to improve its hydration, but decided this time to skip that step to simplify the procedure.) I used the flat beater attachment to combine all of the ingredients in the mixer bowl, at stir/speed 1, for about a minute, or until the dough mass pulled away from the sides of the mixer bowl and collected around the flat beater. In my case, there was no raw flour left in the bowl. I then scraped the dough off of the flat beater (it was shaggy and on the sticky side) and switched to the C-hook attachment and kneaded the dough mass at stir speed, for about 2 minutes, or just until the dough gathered around the dough hook in a fairly cohesive, but still somewhat wet and sticky, mass.

At this point, I sprinkled the IDY over the dough mass in the mixer bowl. This is a step that I have used many times before to help prolong the useful life of a dough. For those who are interested, some of the theoretical and practical underpinnings of this step have been described in detail at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. The dough was then kneaded for about 5-6 minutes at speed 2. The finished dough weighed 21.30 ounces, corresponding to a thickness factor of 0.13837 (or 0.13642 without the bowl residue factor), and had a temperature of around 78 degrees F, which was within the range of about 75-80 degrees F that I often use. After about a minute of hand shaping and rounding, the dough ball was lightly oiled and placed in an oiled 1-quart glass Pyrex bowl (*Note: see the 3/31/14 EDIT below), covered with the accompanying plastic lid, and placed in the refrigerator. To allow gases in the bowl to escape during fermentation while retaining the moisture of condensation, I had drilled a hole in the middle of the lid, the idea for which came to me from November (I believe that Bill/SFNM does the same).

The dough remained in the refrigerator for five days. During the first two days, there was little noticeable expansion of the dough. It is unlikely that the dough could have been used during that time, because of insufficient fermentation. On the third day, the dough started to expand, but slowly, and then appeared to level off in terms of its expansion. The dough was used after about five days, which was within the window of usability (3-8 days) that I believe applies to the dough balls used at PJ’s stores, as discussed in detail in Reply 1 in this thread. From the appearance and firmness of the dough to the touch, I believe that it could have lasted at least a couple days more, but at the risk of increased extensibility.

Upon removal from the refrigerator, the dough was allowed to warm up at room temperature (about 80 degrees F) for about an hour. In preparation for shaping and stretching the dough, I had made my own version of PJ’s Dustinator flour blend that is used by PJ’s pizza makers on the bench--both on and in the dough skins--when working with the dough balls to form skins, as well demonstrated in the YouTube videos referenced in Reply 1. To make a “clone” of the Dustinator flour blend, I used a combination of semolina flour, white flour (KABF in my case), and soybean oil (I worked a few drops into the flours). The first photo below shows the dough ball as it warmed up on my work surface. The flour blend shown is my Dustinator “clone”.

After I opened the dough ball to about 10”, in the same manner as noted in the videos, I used a dough docker (mine has blunt metal pins rather than plastic pins) but concluded that it was not really necessary. The dough was quite extensible as it was, and was easy to shape and stretch out to the desired final size of 14”. Because of the extensibility of the skin, I did not attempt to toss it in the air, as it is done at PJ’s. I simply draped the skin onto a 14” pizza screen. I made no attempt to form a rim for the pizza—only a tug here and there to fit the skin to the screen. This is the way I saw the workers at PJ’s do it (and also in the videos).

To dress the pizza for baking, I started with 5.5 ounces (by weight) of pizza sauce, which was spread to about 1 Ľ” of the edge of the pizza. The pizza sauce I used was a “clone” sauce based on Escalon’s 6-in-1 fresh-pack tomatoes (which is similar to the Stanislaus Tomato Magic product but without citric acid). The actual composition of the clone sauce is set forth in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044. After saucing the pizza, I distributed 9 ounces (about two cups) of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand) over the pizza. Although I didn’t do it with the pizza shown below in this post, I suggest that the cheese be distributed across the entire pizza, including random parts of the rim. Any cheese that spills over the edge should then be retrieved and placed back on the pizza to maintain the weight of the cheese. This method ensures that some of the cheese covers the rim, as is done at PJ’s, and creates a mottled effect on the rim when the cheese bakes and browns. Had I used that approach, I think that the rim of my pizza would have more closely resembled the rims of the pizzas I bought from PJ’s.

I finished by placing 44 Hormel pepperoni slices over the entire pizza, in a pattern where the edges of the slices touched each other, as has been stated to be the proper procedure to be used at PJ’s. However, before placing the pepperoni slices on the pizza, I allowed the slices to “sweat” at room temperature for about a half hour to induce release of some of the fat. I then placed the slices between layers of paper towels and firmly pressed them together to absorb the released fat. By doing this, I removed about 6 grams of fat, reducing the weight of the pepperoni slices from 88 grams (3.10 oz.) to 82 grams (2.89 oz.). This simple measure had the effect of reducing the “oiling off” of the pepperoni slices on the baked pizza, which had been a problem I was experiencing before instituting the new measure. I hasten to add that this method may only work with a fairly high room temperature, which, in my case, was around 82 degrees F.

The dressed pizza was baked, on the 14” screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at around 500 degrees F (preheated for 15 minutes), for about 8-9 minutes, or until the bottom of the crust was browned. The remaining photos in this post show the finished pizza.

After the pizza was baked, I had the benefit of comparing it with a 14” pepperoni pizza that I had purchased from PJ’s. The overall appearances of the two pizzas were somewhat different--which I attributed mainly to the different ovens and bake protocols and the absence of cheese on the rim of my pizza--but the sizes of the pizzas were essentially identical. Similarly, the crust thicknesses at the rim and at the rest of the crust, and the texture (soft and tender, and fluffy in parts) and mouthfeel of the two pizzas were remarkably alike. Both pizzas also behaved the same upon coming out of the oven--with the slices being initially soft and flexible with drooping tips, and firming up only after being allowed to cool for several minutes.

As for differences, there was a slight difference in the two sauces, with mine having a slightly more noticeable oregano taste. The PJ crust also seemed to be slightly less sweet than mine. These differences suggest some possible experimentation or tweaking, for example, reducing the amount of oregano in future sauce batches or using a different variety of oregano (my dried oregano is an Italian variety and is potent and aromatic) and reducing the amount of sugar in the dough, for example, to something between 4% and the 4.8% I used.

Interestingly, when I did several side-by-side tests of reheated leftover slices of the two pizzas, I found them to be virtually indistinguishable. To eliminate as much of the subjective component as possible, I cut the slices into small bite-size pieces and shuffled them around on my plate, without looking. I then randomly picked them up off of the plate and ate them without examining them (I actually closed my eyes). I could not tell which pizza was which.

Some changes to the dough formulation that I hope to implement in future clones include sifting the flour (KABF or equivalent) to improve its hydration, and using vital wheat gluten (for texture and flavor purposes). I also plan to reduce the sugar to about 4-4.25%. I might also use a small amount of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as a dough conditioner for dough strengthening purposes. As best I can tell from information that was provided to me by PJ’s, it does the same thing.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced the Calculator link with the current link.EDIT (3/31/14): Once the dough ball has been formed and placed in its storage container, one can use the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html to monitor the volume expansion of the dough during the course of its fermentation.

For comparison purposes, I have shown below photos of the last Papa John's pepperoni pizza that I purchased and against which I compared my last pizza (the one shown in the last post). As will be noted, the Papa John's pizza had fewer pepperoni slices (about 33) than my pizza, which had 44 pepperoni slices (the same number as an earlier pepperoni pizza that I had purchased from PJ's. Also the latest PJ pizza weighed about 4 ounces less than mine.

For those rabid fans of Papa John’s pizzas who are hell-bent on trying to replicate an authentic Papa John’s pizza (I guess that would include me), I have presented below ingredients lists provided to me by Papa John’s for its Pizza Dough ("original"), Pizza Sauce, Pizza Sauce Dipping Cup, Cheese, and Pepperoni. I have also parenthetically noted the companies that, to the best of my knowledge, provide the Pizza Sauce, Cheese and Pepperoni to Papa John’s. Unfortunately, the companies listed do not sell directly to individuals (at the retail level). This means having to find suitable replacements for home use. I’d be happy to comment on any of the products noted. In all cases, a statement accompanied the information provided to me by PJ’s as follows: “Ingredients are not necessarily listed in order of predominance.” In some cases, it is obvious that information was provided to satisfy consumers, including vegans/vegetarians, with concerns about nutrition, allergies, and diet.

Peter EDIT: According to additional information received from Papa John's on 6/9/08, the flour used to make the PJ Dough is not bromated; also, the sauce used in the Pizza Sauce Dipping Cup is packaged by another vendor, who adds the preservatives.

In the course of my research on the Papa John’s pizzas, I tried to learn as much as possible on how PJ’s bakes it pizzas since that information could be useful in determining the proper bake protocol to use in the home with a standard home oven.

As previously noted, I used an oven temperature of around 500 degrees F. In earlier attempts, I tried using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time, but it took a long time for the bottom to turn a nice brown. So, I concluded that, for my oven, the higher bake temperature was better. I might even try a slightly higher temperature next time and move the pizza to a higher oven position if needed to finish the top of the pizza. All of this suggests that one may need to experiment with bake protocols to find the most suitable one.

In a recent post by member scprotz at another thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58087.html#msg58087, he suggested using a food processor to convert mozzarella cheese to dice form. As previously mentioned, Papa John's uses a diced mozzarella cheese blend (from Leprino) for its pizzas. For a recent PJ clone pizza, I decided to try the food processor method recommended by scprotz. It worked beautifully. I left the mozzarella cheese, which was in block form, in the refrigerator just until I was ready to dice it. I then cut the block into several chunks and threw them into the food processor (a 14-cup Cuisinart). It took no time at all to convert the cheese to dice form--to just about any fineness of dice that I wanted. In my case, I tried to get the dice fairly small, as the PJ cheese blend seems to be based on my recent visits to my local PJ store. I did, however, weigh the diced cheese to be sure that it was of the proper weight for my clone pizza.

Peter, John himself metioned using either black river seed or black sunflower? seed oil in the dough. He mentioned that "it " did not have that bitter flavor of a a thicker shell. It was hard to understand. I think he meant black sunflower seed oil. Otherwise, he mentioned a max 6 min cook time, 5oz of sauce on what appeared to be a 16" pizza, and 2 cups of cheese diced as noted. They described it as 100% mozz, but later in the show when giving tips on making the pizza at home, he mentioned using high gluten flour and 3 cheeses. Mozz ,Porv, and muenster. He said that might get you close. (he wasnt acctually speaking about you ) -marc

Peter, John himself metioned using either black river seed or black sunflower? seed oil in the dough. He mentioned that "it " did not have that bitter flavor of a a thicker shell. It was hard to understand. I think he meant black sunflower seed oil. Otherwise, he mentioned a max 6 min cook time, 5oz of sauce on what appeared to be a 16" pizza, and 2 cups of cheese diced as noted. They described it as 100% mozz, but later in the show when giving tips on making the pizza at home, he mentioned using high gluten flour and 3 cheeses. Mozz ,Porv, and muenster. He said that might get you close. (he wasnt acctually speaking about you ) -marc

When I was doing my research on the PJ operations, I specifically looked for evidence of some unique or unusual ingredient in their dough and did not find anything. That type of information would have to come from someone in one of their eleven regional Quality Control Centers. I have found that the people who work in their stores have limited knowledge of what is in their products. Basically, they are just "assemblers" of pizzas.

As far as the cheese recommendation is concerned, as noted previously, PJ's uses a mozzarella cheese blend from Leprino Foods. One of Leprino’s specialties is comminuted (diced or shredded) Quick Frozen Cheeses, also known as QLC/IQF (Quality-Locked Cheese/Individually Quick Frozen) cheeses, that are flash frozen at very low temperatures to “lock” in the flavor, aroma and texture. From that point on, the cheeses can be kept frozen for several months before using, allegedly without flavor degradation. As a practical matter, I believe that the QLC/IQF cheeses are used in much shorter time periods, as this document from the Leprino website discusses: http://www.leprinofoods.com/cheese/PDFs/Simple_Steps_to_Using_QLC_with_photos.pdf. I was unable to find any details on the specific composition of the Leprino mozzarella cheese blend beyond a reference by a poster at the pizza drivers website at http://tipthepizzaguy.com/discussion/thread.php?ip=67&num=1601 that at one time PJ's apparently used a 50/50 quick frozen blend of cubed (diced) mozzarella cheeses. Leprino is a low-profile, secretive company that rarely gives interviews and does not publicly disclose the nutrition information for its various cheeses (or at least I haven’t been able to find it), making it difficult to analyze what is in their products (e.g., in terms of fat, cholesterol, protein or sodium content) or replicate their products with other brands of cheeses that we, as home pizza makers, have available to us.

I don't know when the "Couch Potato" FoodNetwork piece first aired but by May 2007 John Schnatter had stepped down as the Executive Chairman of Papa John's to serve just as the head of the board of directors. A fellow by the name of Nigel Travis now runs the show on a day-to-day basis. Schnatter remains as a spokesman for PJ's with no cash compensation, just stock options.

As an aside, I noted in Lydia's post referenced above, as well as at the PJ website, that PJ's uses "clear-filtered water" to make its dough. Actually, PJ's uses a water filtration and ozonation system at each of its regional Quality Control Centers where their dough is made. For my purposes in making clones, I have been using either pure spring water or municipal water that, according to the label, is processed by carbon filtration, UV treatment, microfiltration, and ozonation.

Pete-zzaWhile I really enjoy a PJ pizza; I am not a proponent of their small rim. I enjoy a larger rim with larger voids. Do you believe that by increasing the water percentage in your formula that you would be able to increase the size of the rim and increase the voids? Thanks for any thoughts on this question.Buffalo

Do you believe that by increasing the water percentage in your formula that you would be able to increase the size of the rim and increase the voids?

Buffalo,

I believe I addressed your question in Reply 1 above in which I noted:

When I experimented with PJ dough clone hydrations above 60%, the rims were much larger and the crumb was puffier and more open and airy.

I was expecting the results noted inasmuch as I had previously made several of Randy's PJ clones and my own "thin" versions of Randy's PJ clones using hydrations of 60% and 61.5%, as discussed at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. But, even with higher hydrations, you are not likely to get gigantic rims. I think it is because of the limiting effects of the large amounts of oil in the dough on the retention of gasses by the gluten matrix. You can perhaps overcome that effect to a degree by using much more yeast, but, having tried that, I found that the pizza lost some of the basic attributes of a typical PJ dough and pizza. An example of this is shown in Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335.html#msg58335. The pizza shown there was a same-day PJ clone that included 1% IDY. An earlier similar version used 1.5% IDY. In both cases, but for the sizes of the rims and the more open and airy character of the rims and crumb, the pizzas looked a lot like PJ pizzas, including size and weight, but the pizzas did not taste like PJ pizzas. The taste was fine and I enjoyed the pizzas, but the crusts were more breadlike. The results suggested that I will have to make other kinds of changes to the basic PJ clone dough formulation in order to come up with something that more closely resembles a real PJ pizza but made the same day.

"Textbook" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge

For purposes of using November's tool, my set of measuring cups (metal, without lips) includes 1 c., 1/2 c., 1/3 c. and 1/4 c. My measuring spoons for this purpose are 1 T. and 1 t. The table below shows the conversions for the PJ clone dough formulation I posted in Reply 2:

I will leave to November to explain the design of his tool if he is so inclined, but I have never seen any calculator that can do what his tool does, that is, convert a weight of an ingredient to a volume, and vice versa, based on the way the ingredient is measured out. I did not see anything in the conversion tools that you referenced that can do that. Most such converters convert within a weight or volume but not between them, although I have seen calculators (e.g., http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/gram_calc.htm) that purport to convert between weight and volume for certain common food items, including flour. But they are crude and general in nature (e.g., a cup of flour weighs "x" ounces). November's tool has seven different flours in its database.

I did the conversion as a matter of convenience to those who do not have scales. I used the Textbook method because that is the method I always use. It is also the method recommended by King Arthur and other experts in the field.

Of course, November's converter is more accurate. I don't dispute that at all. I just thought that the other converters might be of equal help to people, who are not so experienced yet, when it comes to making pizza and its sometimes complex dough formulas.

Mike

Logged

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

I just thought that the other converters might be of equal help to people, who are not so experienced yet, when it comes to making pizza and its sometimes complex dough formulas.

I'm sure your suggestion was well-meaning; in fact, onlineconversion.com is where I used to do most of my conversions related to physics years ago; however it is of little help to anyone to have conversions that are off by as much as 30 grams (or over 23% too low) for a cup of flour. (flour, wheat bread; 1 cup [US] = 99.36705933 gram according to their calculator, and whole wheat flour is inaccurate in the opposite direction.) I could guess an amount through visual inspection more accurately than that. Even using the nutrition fact label information, which is sometimes far from accurate, is even yet more accurate.

I wouldn't make any changes. I simply remembered the first few times I used your converter, and being a Newbie at that time to different dough formulas, etc., it took me a few tries to get a hang of it.

Other than that, I think it's a handy tool. But I also agree with you on the accuracy on some online converters. A lot of them are not very consistent. You're right in regards to the cup to gram ratio.

I've looked closely at their product and I would guess that they are using a flour with about 13 to 13.2% protein content. This would be equivalent to (General Mills) Gold Medal Hi-Power, North Dakota Mills Straight Grade, or possibly General Mills Superlative or Full Strength, which come in at about 12.6% protein content. Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

The above quote should be taken as a protein guideline only, since most (if not all) of the flours mentioned by Tom are bromated. According to what I was recently told by Papa John's, they do not use bromated flours.

As previously noted, I used the King Arthur bread flour (unbleached and nonbromated), which has a protein content of 12.7%. I thought that that flour worked out very well, to the point where I could not distinguish the crust of my PJ clone pizza from the real thing, as noted earlier in Reply 2. The GM Harvest King ("Better for Bread") flour, which is a retail level brand that home bakers can easily find in the supermarkets, logs in at around 12.3% protein on the high end of its range.

For those who wish to research the General Mills flours, including the Harvest King flour, the specs are available at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Home.aspx. The higher protein flours are mostly listed under the Eastern/Central Flours category and the "Spring" subcategory.

In my opinion, it is still a viable option to use a high-gluten flour to make a PJ clone, as I have done before with very good results with early Randy PJ clones and variations thereof. However, as noted in the opening post of this thread, it was not my objective to make a PJ clone that was "better" than the real thing. My objective was--and still is--to replicate the real thing as closely as possible. Of course, for some, especially those who have grown up on PJ pizzas and have developed a real taste affinity for PJ pizzas, the "replicated" version may be the "best" version.

Having recently satisfied myself that it is possible to make a credible Papa John’s clone pizza that very closely approximates a real Papa John’s pizza (in my case, a pepperoni pizza), I thought that it might be useful to make a PJ clone dough with a much shorter window of usability--around two days. That compares with a window of usability of around 3-8 days that I estimate PJ uses for its dough balls in its own stores. In addition to the shorter window of usability, the finished pizza would have to have most of the finished characteristics of a real PJ pizza. Otherwise, it would not be proper to consider it a clone.

To accomplish the above objectives, I modified the original dough clone formulation as set forth in Reply 2. The major functional change was to shorten the fermentation time. I did this primarily by using warmer water and an increased amount of yeast. In particular, I raised the water temperature from 55 degrees F to 65 degrees F and I doubled the yeast (IDY) from 0.14% to 0.28%. While I was at it, I also reduced the amount of sugar from 4.8% to 4.2%. This last change was to reduce the level of sweetness in the finished crust to more closely approximate the degree of sweetness of the crust of a real PJ pizza. The final dough formulation that I used, as produced using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, was as follows:

Note: For 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.13642; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; a pinch of ascorbic acid was also used as a dough ingredient.

As noted in the above table, I elected to use the King Arthur bread flour (KABF). This decision was made because I have been very satisfied with the results I have been getting using this flour to make PJ clone doughs. About the only thing I did to the flour was to sift it. This is my standard practice and was done to improve the hydration of the flour. For those who do not have a bowl sieve or a hand crank sieve, the sifting step can be omitted. I also used a pinch of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as one of the dough ingredients. I used it for dough strengthening purposes and as a substitute for potassium bromate that is used in many commercial flours. For those who do not have any ascorbic acid on hand, or a Vitamin C tablet that can be ground to a powder, it can be omitted.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 12.54 ounces, converts to 2 c. + ˝ c. + ⅓ c. + 1 7/8 t. These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397 and also at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ (the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator). The 7.08 ounces of water in the above table converts to ľ c. + 1 T. + approx. 2 t. The level of water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the cup on a flat surface.

The dough was prepared in essentially the same manner as described in Reply 2. Specifically, I started by placing the water, at 65 degrees F, into the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt, sugar and ascorbic acid (optional) and stirred to dissolve, about 1 minute. I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat paddle attachment secured, and the mixer at stir speed, I gradually added the sifted KABF to the bowl. I did this until all of the flour was roughly incorporated and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and collected around the paddle attachment, about a minute or two. I then scraped the dough off of the paddle attachment (it was shaggy and on the sticky side) and replaced the paddle attachment with the C-hook and kneaded the dough mass, at stir speed, for about 1-2 minutes, to allow the oil to be more completely incorporated into the dough mass. The final ingredient, the IDY, was then sprinkled over the dough mass, and the dough was kneaded at speed 2 for about 5-6 minutes. At the end of that time, the dough was sticky and soft. However, with an additional minute of hand kneading, and without adding any additional bench flour, that stickiness disappeared and the dough was smooth and soft and supple. It was a very nicely formed dough.

The finished dough weight was a bit over 21 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 81.3 degrees F. That finished dough temperature was just about right to allow fermentation to commence, and well within the desired range of 80-85 degrees F. The finished dough ball was lightly oiled (using soybean oil) and placed in a lightly oiled one-quart Pyrex glass bowl (*Note: See the 3/31/14 EDIT below). That bowl went into the refrigerator, without its cover, for about 15 minutes, to allow the dough ball to dry out a bit. I then attached the cover to the bowl. As noted previously, the cover for the bowl has a small opening to allow gasses of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for 52 hours, or a few hours past two days. During that time, the dough ball just about doubled in volume. I estimate that the dough could have held out for about another day or so. When I was ready to use the dough, I placed it on a work surface along with my clone version of the PJ Dustinator flour mixture of semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil. I coated the exposed surfaces of the dough ball with the Dustinator clone and let the dough sit, uncovered, at room temperature (around 78 degrees F) for about 1 ˝ hours. I then formed and shaped the dough into a 14” skin. I did this in the same general manner as shown in the YouTube videos referenced in Reply 1 and as I also observed the crew members at my local PJ store do it. The dough was a bit on the extensible side but it handled beautifully.

After placing the 14” skin on a 14” pizza screen, it was then dressed to make a pepperoni pizza. For the sauce, I used the Wal-Mart PJ sauce clone as described in Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208. The sauce was spread over the skin to about 1 ˝” of the edge. It weighed 5.3 ounces (about 5 fluid ounces). The cheese was a diced combination of Wal-Mart whole milk mozzarella cheese and Best Choice low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese. This is a combination of cheese types that was suggested by member November at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58171.html#msg58171 as being his best estimate of the apportionment (2/3 whole milk mozzarella cheese and 1/3 low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese) of the two types of cheeses. In my case, I used a total weight of 9 ounces of the blended cheeses. The cheeses were comminuted to dice form by using my food processor, which worked beautifully for this purpose. When spreading the cheeses over the pizza, I was sure to spread some of the cheeses over the rim of the pizza. This is the method used by PJ’s in its stores and helps to create the signature appearance of its pizzas.

The pepperoni slices (a total of 44 Hormel slices) were spread edge to edge over the pizza. Before placing the pepperoni slices on the pizza, I had placed them between sheets of paper towels and pressed them together to reduce the amount of fat in the slices so that oiling of the slices on the pizza would be reduced. The total weight of the pepperoni slices was 2.8 ounces (80 grams). The total assembled pizza weighed 1089 grams, or 38.41 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 8-9 minutes. When the pizza was done, I weighed it to see how much weight was loss during baking. The finished pizza weighed 1004 grams, or 35.41 ounces. This represented a loss of about 3 ounces, or 7.8%. That was within the range of losses I experienced with earlier PJ clone pizzas.

The photos below show the finished pizza.

I was extremely pleased with the way the pizza turned out. The crust was a little thicker than a standard PJ pizza crust, but only slightly, and the pizza exhibited most of the characteristics of a standard PJ pizza. The size, shape, and weight were very close to a standard PJ pizza, and even its appearance was quite close, mainly because of the cheese on the rim and the overall coloration of the rim. The crust was chewy and the crumb was soft and tender. The level of sweetness of the crust was closer to the original than I have achieved before. Even the leftover slices were delicious. Unfortunately, I did not have a real PJ pizza on hand to do a more careful comparison, but based on memory, the latest pizza was a good approximation of a real PJ pizza. I would even rate it as highly as the first successful PJ clone pizza described and shown in Reply 2. And the best part is that the dough can be made and used in a two-day period.

My next goal, maybe an overly ambitious one, is to make a credible same-day PJ clone pizza.

Many of the ingredients looked familiar to me. For example, the items underlined above are commonly found in soft margarines. Some brands even have the same preservatives or equivalent ones. It might be possible to replicate the Special Garlic Sauce by adding some butter (or imitation butter flavor or possibly some "butter buds"), garlic powder and fresh garlic (finely pureed) to such a basic soft margarine (e.g., Imperial or Parkay soft). It may also be necessary to add some soybean oil to thin out the margarine, depending on the brand.

As far as the pepperoncini are concerned, you may find it interesting that Papa John's once claimed that it used 60% of all of the pepperoncini peppers grown worldwide.

I agree and it was the main reason that we continued for so long to order PJ's pizzas even though we found them too sweet... we once ordered the thinner crust and were sorry to see that there was no garlic sauce included... so have never done that again! Thanks for your "recipe" for it... I may try to replicate it for my homemade breadsticks!

In Reply 20, I stated a goal of making a credible same-day Papa John’s clone pizza. This has always been my ultimate goal. As previously discussed, I tried on several occasions to make a same day PJ clone pizza. These clones were based on using standard techniques such as the poolish method and using a lot of yeast, very warm water, and a long room-temperature fermentation. It turned out that the methods I used were a huge success, but the pizza crusts themselves, while tasty, were too puffy and breadlike and, hence, poor imitations of a real PJ pizza. Any same-day clone pizza that I would recommend would have to bear most of the attributes of a real Papa John’s pizza.

For my most recent effort, I decided to abandon my previous methods and to try a different one. More specifically, I decided to use very small amounts of yeast (0.10% IDY), water at normal temperature (around 73 degrees F), and a long, room-temperature fermentation (a total of about 8 hours). To allow the dough to ferment efficiently while still using a small amount of yeast, I increased the hydration from 56.5% to 58% and I reduced the amount of salt from 1.75% to 1.5%. As before, I used the King Arthur bread flour (KABF). This time, however, I sifted the flour. (If one does not have a bowl sieve or hand crank sifter, the sifting step can be omitted.) I did not use any ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) this time (although it can be used if desired), and, as before, I used a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5%. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I ended up with the following same-day PJ clone dough formulation:

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour from the above table, 13.05 ounces, translates volumetrically to 2 c. + ˝ c. + 1/3 c. +2 T. + 1 3/4 t. This conversion to volume measurements is based on using the “Textbook” method of volume measurement as defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The conversion itself was done using the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/.

The amount of formula water from the above table, 7.57 ounces, converts to between ľ and 7/8 cup on a volume basis. The water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface.

The dough preparation was quite straightforward. I started by putting the formula water, at around 73 degrees F, into the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt and sugar and stirred to dissolve, about 1 minute. Next, I added the IDY and stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. Normally, I would have added the IDY to the flour, but because the amount of IDY was so small (about 1/8 t.) in relation to the amount of flour, I decided to add it to the water where it would be more uniformly dispersed than if I tried to stir it uniformly into the flour.

I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat paddle attachment secured, and with the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the KABF to the mixer bowl. Once all of the flour was taken up by the dough and the dough cleared the sides of the mixer bowl, about 1-2 minutes, I stopped the mixer, cleared the dough off of the paddle attachment (the dough was shaggy and quite wet and sticky at this point), and switched to the C-hook. I then kneaded the dough at speed 2 for about 5-6 minutes. The dough at this point was still on the wet and sticky side but after hand kneading it for about 1 minute, without using any bench flour, the dough became drier and formed easily into a nice, smooth, malleable round dough ball. The finished dough weight was 21.90 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 83 degrees F—well within the 80-85 degrees F range I was striving for.

Since I did not have a good idea as to how fast the dough would rise in my kitchen this time of year, after placing the dough ball (lightly oiled with soybean oil) into its container--a 1-qt. Pyrex glass bowl--I used a neat trick given to me by member November to determine and track the degree of rise of my dough ball. This method is discussed in detail at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. In line with that method, I placed two poppy seeds, spaced 1” apart, at the middle of my dough ball. I then loosely covered the bowl with a plastic shower cap with an elastic band (a sheet of plastic wrap loosely secured to the container can also be used). As it turned out, the dough rose fairly quickly. When the spacing between the two poppy seeds reached a bit over 1 Ľ”, signifying that the dough ball had doubled in volume, I removed the poppy seeds, punched the dough down, and reshaped it again into a ball. The elapsed time at this point was about 5 ˝ hours (at a room temperature of around 79 degrees F). I put two more poppy seeds, spaced 1” apart, on the reshaped dough ball, covered the bowl again, and let the dough rise again. It took about another 2 hours for the dough to double again (when the spacing of the two poppy seeds was about 1 Ľ”). This time, I did not re-knead the dough ball again. I just gently pressed the dough ball down as I would any dough ball in preparation for using it to make a dough skin. The dough at this point was quite gassy (with a lot of bubbles) and soft.

I had no problem whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough ball into a 14” skin. The dough was quite extensible but very easy to work with. As with my previous clone efforts, I used my clone “Dustinator” flour blend of semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil to coat the outer surfaces of the dough ball in preparation for forming it into a skin. Once stretched out to 14”, the dough skin was placed on a 14” pizza screen. To be sure that the rim wouldn’t become too large when baked, I made sure to press the outer edges of the skin down to flatten it as much as I could.

For the latest pizza, I decided on a combination of pepperoni and mushrooms. For the sauce, I used the sauce formulation as described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208. I used just under 5 ounces of the sauce, by weight. For cheeses, I used a blend of 2/3 whole milk mozzarella (Wal-Mart brand) and 1/3 low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella (Best Choice brand), by weight, or about 9 ounces total weight in my case. The cheeses were comminuted to diced form using my Cuisinart food processor, as previously described. The mushrooms were a combination of lightly sautéed and uncooked mushroom slices. The pepperoni constituted 22 Hormel pepperoni slices. To reduce the amount of fat in the pepperoni slices, I had placed them between sheets of paper towels, which were then pressed together to absorb some of the fat. This is a method that has worked out very well for me.

From what I have read, Papa John’s places vegetables on top of the sauce before putting down the cheese and meat toppings like pepperoni. I decided instead to place part of the cheese blend on the sauce, then the sautéed mushrooms, the rest of the cheese blend, the pepperoni slices, and finally the raw mushroom slices. I was sure to put some of the cheese blend on the rim of the skin so that it would create the signature appearance of a real PJ pizza. The total weight of the unbaked pizza was around 40.3 ounces. The pizza so dressed was baked, on the 14” screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at around 500 degrees F, for about 10-11 minutes. The weight of the baked pizza was around 37.2 ounces. This represented a loss during baking of about 7.8%.

The photos below show the finished pizza.

The finished pizza greatly exceeded my expectations. It looked in just about all material respects like a real Papa John’s pizza--with similar dimensions and weigh. Moreover, the rim was not oversized or breadlike and it was chewy yet soft and tender in the crumb, with a detectible sweetness, which are classic attributes of a real Papa John’s pizza. The slices had the “look and feel” of real Papa John’s slices.

I am hard pressed at this point to suggest improvements to make a better same-day PJ clone pizza. However, in a future effort, I might try using less yeast, say, 1/16 t., and shoot for only a single rise in the dough of at least 8 hours and preferably longer (for flavor enhancement). That way, one would not have to be present to punch down the dough ball. I would definitely use the “poppy seed trick” to track the rise of the dough. Using that method takes a lot of the guesswork out of trying to tell when a dough ball has doubled in volume or reached any other level of expansion.