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it's not that we stop being afraid. We just narrow down what we are afraid of to what is of real significance and stop being afraid all the time of what doesn't actually matter. When we stop being afraid we gain our freedom to act.

While this paradigm might not be the best one for developing fighters for combat, I think it a very good one for developing human beings who can live their lives doing more good than harm, leaving things around them better than when they arrived in the world

So eloquent sensei! I believe if we can take a bigger view of our lives (and beyond our lives) and how our actions can affect our relationships and environment in very profound ways....then....more folks would buy into this kind of thinking.

I do not think this is true at all. It's not at all difficult to know when things are martially ineffective. Aikido practice is highly stylized. So the first sign of martial ineffectiveness is when the folks in the dojo can't even make their waza work under the controlled circumstances of practice.

Irimi is at the heart of all martial application. If you go to a dojo and no one can enter without you hitting them, the practice is ineffective. That's my first test... I frequently arrive at dojos to teach and find that not a single student can pull off an irimi when I attack. That's because I REALLY attack. at the majority of the dojos I see around, the students are not really trying to strike their partners. If everyone trains that way day after day, they think they know how to do things they really cannot do. As Frank Doran Sensei says, the "entry" is everything, everything else is just icing on the cake.

I think that the "entry" is the most neglected aspect of Aikido training. I sell a lot of Aikido DVD's. I have a set I call the Principles of Aiki set. Vol. 2 is just on "Entries". I sell fewer of those than the others. I am convinced that this is because people see the title and say to themselves "I know how to do that..."

Anyway, it's a shock when a bunch of third or fourth dans, or even worse, someone running a dojo, finds that they can't do an entry. They can know 500 techniques and without effective irimi, it's just 500 techniques they cannot do.

The second thing one can spot at a dojo at which the practice is clearly martially ineffective is closely related to the above. Can the students at the dojo strike? With speed, with power? If not, then the practice is being done at unrealistically slow speed. People will not be able to adjust when it gets fast and hard.

What does the "intention" feel like during practice. Once again, you can look at the folks in many dojos and see that they have no projection, no forward intention. You can stand in front of them and feel nothing. They have no idea how to organize a strong forward flow of attention. If you attack them fast, or God forbid, with unexpected timing, they are never ready. You can stand in front of someone like this and know you will hit them before you even start.

One of my students gave me a book on the theory of limits as applied to business. While being over my head math-wise after about three chapters, I got the gist of it. It changed my thinking about how we teach our art. The theory of limits says that in any complex system, like a factory (and Aikido is also a complex system of body / mind skills), one needs to analyze the various elements that go into producing the output of the factory and decide which one is the "limiting factor". You can throw all sorts of money and resources into that factory and have no increase in the production whatever if you don't devote them to improving the "limiting factor".

So, in my opinion, most Aikido practice is done without any regard to this idea. People are studying a wide range of techniques, empty hand and weapons, putting all sorts of time and money into their training with almost no increase in actual skill from year to year because they have not addressed the limiting factor in their Aikido.

For the majority of the folks I see training, the limiting factor is the lack of ability or willingness to train with attacks which have speed and power. Strikes have no body integration and hence no actual power. Grabs tend to be "strong" in a way that is totally ineffective. A grab should be designed to effect the partner's balance and his ability to respond. Turning your partner's hand purple by grabbing really hard has no martial effectiveness whatever and is probably making you tight in a way that limits your ability to move freely.

So collectively, I would put all of this under the label of "attacks". Problems with the "attack" is the limiting factor for most Aikido folks. There is simply no possible way for someone to get to any level beyond the rudimentary without addressing this issue. Period. 50% of ones training is in the role of "uke". All sorts of attention is put on the ability to take the fall, very little is put on the actual attack.

Now, that said, fixing this issue is still no guarantee of "martial effectiveness" outside the dojo. But the idea that only combat will tell you anything simply isn't the case. Physical conflict runs through a whole range from a drunk guy shoving you at a bar to two or three fellows with guns confronting you on the street. There innumerable stories of folks with only moderate skills, developed in their dojo environments, using their Aikido "effectively" for self defense on the street. The reason for this is that most attackers out in the real world are not formally trained in anything. Many are simply incompetent. Dangerous perhaps, but not very sophisticated.

Combat is all out, life or death. Most folks will never have to use their Aikido in combat. That doesn't mean that one can't train for martial effectiveness. Do you want to know whether you are "martially effective"? Go up to your local mixed martial arts gym and see about applying what you've worked on in the dojo. Personally, I don't actually care about this issue, but young men often wonder if their stuff "works" and this is a good way to find out. The uchi deshi used to wonder the same thing... they'd go out to the local bars and get in fights, often with the soldiers from the occupation. That's a good way to find out of you can do your Aikido against folks who have no formal training. Of course you might get injured, killed or just plain arrested doing this, but it will tell you something.

Anyway, my feeling is that people need to fix how they train in the dojo and get it to the point at which it actually works within the stylized framework of Aikido itself before they need to start worrying about "combat application" or "martial effectiveness". These discussions are off mark most of the time, I think. Find the "limiting factor" in your training and fix it. Then find the new "limiting factor" and fix that. Progress will result and eventually you will be good at what you do. Then, if you want to experiment with non-traditional applications, go ahead. Folks who worry about this too early in their training typically do not get very good.

I think I'm just going to copy and paste this into every "aikido in real life" thread from now on.

Over the decades, we have suffered loss after loss of our first pioneers of Aikido, our Senseis, our Sempai , our sources of inspiration.

Let us learn from our mistakes, in order not to repeat them.

George Ledyard Shihan is one of those rare gifts to Aiki and to mankind, that we are foolish to take for granted. No more. Let us encourage him to write his books, talk his walks. After all, he has always walked his talk.

Over the decades, we have suffered loss after loss of our first pioneers of Aikido, our Senseis, our Sempai , our sources of inspiration.

Let us learn from our mistakes, in order not to repeat them.

George Ledyard Shihan is one of those rare gifts to Aiki and to mankind, that we are foolish to take for granted. No more. Let us encourage him to write his books, talk his walks. After all, he has always walked his talk.

George, yoroshiku onegaeshimasu!!!!!!!!

francis y takahashi

Francis, You embarrass me... especially something like that coming from my favorite Happy Buddha. I've thought about a book... but I have to say, talking to Ellis and Bill Gleason about how much work it actually is, hasn't made me want to jump right up and give it a try. Especially the fairly small return for such massive effort. How about an Aikido based thriller that would sell big time at airports? and have movie rights? and I could have an agent... and maybe an "entourage"... I always wanted to have an "entourage". Well. may be not. I think for the time being, I'll stick with my videos. Between these forums and my videos, I think I can do the most good without giving myself an ulcer... Now, if we are talking about Peter G putting his material into book form, I am all over that!!!!

...I've thought about a book... but I have to say, talking to Ellis and Bill Gleason about how much work it actually is, hasn't made me want to jump right up and give it a try. Especially the fairly small return for such massive effort. ...

Any chance one or more of your students is a writer, editor, or publisher who could compile your posts, transcribe interviews and videos, help you with an outline and editing, and take of the administrative details? A lot of very good books by very busy people are written with a tiny mention of a co-author on the cover.

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote:

... Between these forums and my videos, I think I can do the most good without giving myself an ulcer... Now, if we are talking about Peter G putting his material into book form, I am all over that!!!!

Your videos are a tremendous resource (well, and your forum posts, too), and I'm very grateful to have several of them. The rest are on my shopping list.

Well, it could have chapters that have topics similar to the DVDs and topical courses you give.... or at least you could already start to organise the material that way, just in case one day you decide to do a book.... and then it could have some aikiweb community involvement, I have published/ edited a couple of books, and sure others would help as well....maybe a senior student of yours could be project manager....

...and I guess this has wondered way off topic and should be a different thread, "Lobbying for Ledyard Sensei's book". Jun? Help?

Any chance one or more of your students is a writer, editor, or publisher who could compile your posts, transcribe interviews and videos, help you with an outline and editing, and take of the administrative details? A lot of very good books by very busy people are written with a tiny mention of a co-author on the cover.

Actually, if it happens, that's likely to be the way it does. The editor who helped Ellis is a former student of mine and a friend. But he's a professional so the more I hand over, the more expense I have out of pocket. But it is not out of the question. I have put many hundreds of hours into my on-line writings and that represents a giant head start on a book if I would cull all of that for what is useful. Anyway, we'll see... definitely do not hold your breath on this one.

How about an Aikido based thriller that would sell big time at airports? and have movie rights? and I could have an agent... and maybe an "entourage"...

I got to thinking, wouldn't that be cool...and then took it a step farther. Probably too far. lol

Imagine the thriller becoming an international best seller and the movie rights getting sold for a staggering amount. Movie gets made and again breaks box-office records. George Ledyard Sensei's likeness starts appearing on billboards, magazines, bedsheets and toothpaste. Hollywood's elite come knocking...
Who wouldn't want to see a buddy cop comedy starring Adam Sandler and Ledyard Sensei?

So, so true Lynn, agree with ya...and until you are in the real martial street fight situation, no one from 7th kyu to 10th dan, will know the out come or how you will really react. So many human internal factors and external environmental factors that come together in those microseconds of an altercation....

"There is no such thing as advanced technique, only basic technique done well."

I got to thinking, wouldn't that be cool...and then took it a step farther. Probably too far. lol

Imagine the thriller becoming an international best seller and the movie rights getting sold for a staggering amount. Movie gets made and again breaks box-office records. George Ledyard Sensei's likeness starts appearing on billboards, magazines, bedsheets and toothpaste. Hollywood's elite come knocking...
Who wouldn't want to see a buddy cop comedy starring Adam Sandler and Ledyard Sensei?

Franklin,
I'm afraid you have way too much time on your hands... I about broke a rib I saw this... too funny!
- George

I've seen a few fights in my day and I've never seen two trained boxers or MMA fighters going at it on the street. The few times I've seen actual fighting skill on display, it was the defender who had it, not the aggressor. People who have fighting skill rarely walk around the street looking for a fight.

This I find to be one of the truest statements in the thread. I also think that is what aikido represents even more than many other martial arts. When a person "knows" that what they can do in a given situation can be "effective" it can allow that person to be confident without being the agressor. Most people with enough training an a given "fighting" style to be "effective" simply don't have the need to prove it others. The fact that they KNOW it for themselves seems to be good enough. It is generally those that haven't trained enough (or at all) that feel the need to prove how effective their fighting skills are.
_______________________________________________________________
Now, that being said, when I decided I wanted to train I didn't come to an aikido dojo to get spiritual enlightenment, social and personal grounding or harmony with the universe. I was simply looking for a way to NOT get my butt kicked. In the beginning I asked many times how effective some of the things we did in "training" could be in a "real" situation. What frustrated me to no end was that NO ONE seemed to be willing to discuss anything remotely entertaining the thought of a "real fight". In fact, any discussion of "fighting" at all would get a swift admonishment that aikido wasn't about fighting [from a few aikidoka].

Many times I had considered quitting as some if what I was doing felt like a waste of time, energy, money etc......Fortunately, I stuck around for a while. And through all of the sometimes new-age-hippie-feeling aspects of what I was seeing, I was able to run across a few people who, when they threw me, I could not have resisted (even knowing what the technique was going to be). I also found that the more I tried to really hit them (not trying to trick them or track them, but really try to make that punch or grab something they couldn't just brush to the side) the harder it was for me to resist taking the fall (or falling flat on my face). THIS interested me! The strange part was it wasn't because it hurt, or I would have been knocked out, but more that I COULDN'T have hit him/her with that attack AND that I was wide open to a counter attack IF they so chose to use one! -WOW!- Then what I realized was that because we were in the dojo they "chose" not to launch that counter attack. Occasionally they might touch or tap where they could have placed a pretty devistating atemi while I was off balance and falling to the floor just as a reminder. It helped me to start to realize that being in the right place to not get hit can be far more effective than I initially thought. (not at all saying that I am any good at being in that position just yet....lol). It wasn't the sankyo that was the "real" part of the defense, it was everything that led up to that sankyo (though I still like my joint locks for those times where I screw up my positioning and would like a little extra insurance )

I think the point I am trying to make is, that for the beginner, the understanding that an argument in a bar or at a ball game won't end up in you getting beat all around the floor or stadium is a big part of what helps to build the confidence to become more serene and less violent in your understanding of training. The knowledge that you "COULD" effectively resort to whatever you needed to do to protect yourself makes you less likely to feel threatened enough to do it. I think where the questioning of this issues comes into play is that very often in the realm of aikido training people aren't really understanding the martial applications of what is happening in the training. It can become rather confusing for the new (and sometimes not so new) practitioner.

I hated the fact that almost no one was willing to point this out to me. In my mind, you can't "choose" to resolve a conflict "peacefully" unless you fully understand that you can resolve it violently. Without the understanding of violence you aren't really making a choice. You were only doing what you have been taught. Over time I have been able to read between the lines sometimes as to what the options are (much of it with the help of my sensei after really questioning what I was doing and why I was training). Coming from a lifestyle in my past that required that you be prepared fight on a pretty regular basis, this understanding was important for me to grasp if I was to continue to train in this art. Well, I am still here. To me this means that in my mind, I must be satisfied that aikido can and is an effective form of self defense for most of what may realistically happen to me....Now I just have to learn to make it that effective

I am not a person with alot of rank or decades of practice under my belt. I think, though, coming from that perspective that I can relate to the "effectiveness" question. What I realized was that those sempai that seemed "offended" by being asked about their ability to fight may have just been far enough removed from that basic understanding to not remember how important it is to someone trying to decide if their time and dedication will truly help them to protect themselves. For them, it was no longer nessessary to "prove" aikido's effectiveness because for them it had been proven long ago.

Sorry for the long winded rant but I am just coming to a point where I think I can see a little of both sides of the coin.

Kenneth,
Didn't see a long winded rant... but I sure did see a really good post. Thanks for taking time to write all that out and share it. A lot of us newbies will appreciate it. And I hope maybe some of the experienced ones will take the reminder to heart.

Franklin,
I'm afraid you have way too much time on your hands... I about broke a rib I saw this... too funny!
- George

"Too much time on my hands..." - I hear that way too often. lol
Anyways, I'm glad you liked it - I was hoping I didn't shoot myself in the foot with that post.
But in all seriousness, thanks for your enlightening posts sir.
This has been a great thread!

I was simply looking for a way to NOT get my butt kicked. In the beginning I asked many times how effective some of the things we did in "training" could be in a "real" situation. What frustrated me to no end was that NO ONE seemed to be willing to discuss anything remotely entertaining the thought of a "real fight". In fact, any discussion of "fighting" at all would get a swift admonishment that aikido wasn't about fighting [from a few aikidoka].

.

Hi Kenneth,
When a prospective student comes into the dojo to check things out, I usually sound them out as to what they want out of the training. If their interest in training is along the lines of what you just stated, I send them elsewhere or tell them to do my applied self defense class. I do not recommend that they do Aikido.

One weekend with Payton Quinn at his ranch in Colorado would do more for your self defense ability than years of Aikido. Peyton Quinn You could save a huge amount oif time and money. Seriously, Aikido has to be the longest road to any fighting capability that you could come up with.

The seniors who tried to tell you that it wasn't about fighting were telling you the truth. It was to their credit that they didn't bullshit you with assurances of the devastating practicality of the art. It may not be what you wanted to hear but it was the truth.

Quote:

Now, that being said, when I decided I wanted to train I didn't come to an aikido dojo to get spiritual enlightenment, social and personal grounding or harmony with the universe.

.

I realize that this was said some what sardonically, but I actually think this is really the only reason to train in Aikido. It is precisely what the Founder created Aikido practice to be. Aikido is a system of personal development which uses a martial paradigm. It just isn't a practical fighting system.

Asking a bunch of Aikido seniors about practical self defense application is like walking into a lab full of theoretical physicists and asking them if what they are studying has any actual use. It's not that the principles thay are studying don't apply everywhere, it's that what they are looking at is something other than practical application.

I am not saying that Aikido doesn't "work". I am saying that it has to be about the silliest way to train if one simply wants to be able to fight out on the street. It would be hard to find a martial art which took longer to get one to the level of practical capability.

I think that many people come to Aikido for the wrong reasons. Often they are sold a bill of goods about what they are learning when they start. This is one of the reasons you see people leaving to go do mixed martial arts and such or quitting Aikido to train with one of the internal power folks. Aikido, for them, didn't deliver the goods they thought they were after.

I was lucky. Saotome Sensei, right from the very start, told us that if we were simply interested in self defense, we should buy a gun. That, coming from one of the most martially capable Aikido teachers I have ever seen was enough to convince me that what we were after was something different.

I do not think I would be doing a beginner any service by assuring them of the practicality of what they are studying. Quite the opposite. If they come in for the right reasons, they tend to stay. At some point in the process they realize that they actually have acquired some martial capability. But it is the by product of proper training, not the focus of that training.

Anyone who is totally wedded to the idea of practical fighting application of their Aikido should really do one of the Aikido styles that came out of the 30's. Patrick Auge down in LA is Mochizuki Sensei's senior foreign student. Chuck Clark Sensei and his own Aaron up here in the Seattle area come out of the Tomiki lineage although they have their own style now. Amos Parker Shihan or Robert Mustard Sensei come from the Shioda lineage. Allan Beebe trained with Shirata Sensei. These systems were founded by teachers who trained with O-Sensei before the art was even called Aikido. If you want martial application, that's where to go, in my opinion. Post war Aikido was structured differently and was intended to be something different.

I think that you may have misinterperated (or I failed to explain properly) what I was trying to say. Most people training in a "martial" art would like to know if what they are doing would be helpful in life and death situation (either from recognizing and removing yourself from the danger to begin with or by being able to physically get out of said situation). To seek enlightenment alone one could go to church or take yoga. I must agree that if the quick fix of being able to "win" immediately is the goal that aikido does take too long to keep most with that intention around. My idea was not to kick anyone's butt but to avoid getting mine kicked (re reading my post it may have appeared that way). In the situations I have been in in my younger days, the goal was generally to LIVE when confronted with, lets just say, agressive individuals who really might want to do me harm.

What I was saying is that it is far easier to gain the "enlighenmet" if you understand what you are doing is viable. This statement illustrates that..

Quote:

Saotome Sensei, right from the very start, told us that if we were simply interested in self defense, we should buy a gun. That, coming from one of the most martially capable Aikido teachers I have ever seen

much easier for him to fully grasp that concept understanding that he is very martially capable. For me, only being a new shodan and only having trained since 2002, having many people senior to me and seeing how they present themselves and having many people junior to me and how they present themselves have noticed a direct corrilation between how "good" they are [for lack of better term] and how much they feel the martial viability isn't important. I have noticed this not just in aikido but in other arts as well which is where this statement came from....

Quote:

Most people with enough training an a given "fighting" style to be "effective" simply don't have the need to prove it others. The fact that they KNOW it for themselves seems to be good enough. It is generally those that haven't trained enough (or at all) that feel the need to prove how effective their fighting skills are.

I have no doubt that I haven't trained enough to have reached that point. I do know that the better I feel about my training (and its potential practical application) the less that application seems important. Wondering if I am the only one to see this corilation or feel this way.

.Anyone who is totally wedded to the idea of practical fighting application of their Aikido should really do one of the Aikido styles that came out of the 30's. Patrick Auge down in LA is Mochizuki Sensei's senior foreign student. Chuck Clark Sensei and his own Aaron up here in the Seattle area come out of the Tomiki lineage although they have their own style now. Amos Parker Shihan or Robert Mustard Sensei come from the Shioda lineage. Allan Beebe trained with Shirata Sensei. These systems were founded by teachers who trained with O-Sensei before the art was even called Aikido. If you want martial application, that's where to go, in my opinion. Post war Aikido was structured differently and was intended to be something different.

(I must plead for forgiveness in advance here, and ask that Jun not kick me off the forum for taking a thread on the martial effectiveness of Aikido and nudging it over in the direction of a system vs system debate, but I am really curious about this.)

I understand why you might point a prospective student who is looking for more street effectiveness to Yoseikan (Aikido with integrated karatedo and judo as I understand it) or Tomiki (competition). But what do you think the Yoshinkai have to offer such a candidate that subsystems closer to the Aikikai do not?

(I must plead for forgiveness in advance here, and ask that Jun not kick me off the forum for taking a thread on the martial effectiveness of Aikido and nudging it over in the direction of a system vs system debate, but I am really curious about this.)

I understand why you might point a prospective student who is looking for more street effectiveness to Yoseikan (Aikido with integrated karatedo and judo as I understand it) or Tomiki (competition). But what do you think the Yoshinkai have to offer such a candidate that subsystems closer to the Aikikai do not?

My experience with the Yoshinkai folks is not great. In fact, the few times folks from their style have trained with us, everyone seemed to pretty compatible. But Shioda left O-Sensei mostly because he couldn't go with him on the spiritual side so the Yoshinkai folks seem to have little preoccupation with such things. Their technique tends be very direct and they are better at teaching the fundamentals than most styles. Mostly they seem to uniformly train very hard.