And, in other news... The EU has asked the G20 to bolster the available international bailout money - but without using anything from its own bailout funds! Well, the EU has a set of cojones, that's for sure. I think it's somewhat telling that the Reuters article referred to the individual national issues within the EU as the EU's "sovereign" issues.

"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later.""Of course! We never ask questions."

Damn, those shit heads just keep jumping in the quick sand don't they... 750b Euro's so that they can do what exactly? The EU puts up 150b and then looks to beg the rest of the world for five times what they're fronting?

Looks like the EU has gone the way of the UN in usefulness. So I'll pray they keep themselves in Europe and not annoy the progress inspired parts of the world.

Deepcrush wrote:Damn, those shit heads just keep jumping in the quick sand don't they... 750b Euro's so that they can do what exactly? The EU puts up 150b and then looks to beg the rest of the world for five times what they're fronting?

Looks like the EU has gone the way of the UN in usefulness. So I'll pray they keep themselves in Europe and not annoy the progress inspired parts of the world.

Actually, it's probably an interesting move on the part of the EU. Like I said earlier, China is looking for ways to spend their monetary surplus in exchange of some diplomatic or trade concession. It is likely this scheme of 1:4 proportion is a way to invite China to participate without anyone losing face.

As to what the backdoor dealings ended up being, we can only guess. But it's likely there might be a loosening of Europe's attitude toward China in some ways.

It is possibly more than coincidental that this is followed so closely by the new accord struck between the U.S. and the Chinese MoD (which is also quite coincidental to NK agreeing to open up more transparency and cease their single largest uranium-enrichment process.) No matter the motivations, however, it's still pretty ballsy to ask the G20 for that much money while the EU is sitting on 750 bil in reserve funds which they aren't tapping.

And, of course, Greece has decided to cancel the referendum on either accepting conditional aid or exiting the EU.

"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later.""Of course! We never ask questions."

A what point do we just write Greece off? Sure, they had their time in the spot light and played a role in history... But much like the rest of south eastern Europe it's being more trouble then it's worth.

Deepcrush wrote:A what point do we just write Greece off? Sure, they had their time in the spot light and played a role in history... But much like the rest of south eastern Europe it's being more trouble then it's worth.

On one hand I agree with you, no matter how much money they are pumping into them I cannot see them recovering anytime soon and I fear the spectre of greece going bankrupt will be used by some to do pretty much everything they want.

On the other hand I do pity them, because I doubt the common greece citizen on the street is really to blame for that debacle and since most of the debt they have was given by the rest of europe (mostly germany afaik) it seems a bit dishonest to loan and loan and loan them as long as there's profit to be made and then by SO surprised when they are neckdeep in trouble.

It's like those credit card companies which still send you their cards despite knowing that you need to pay for their cards with other credit cards already. Everyone knows it's just a matter of time before the big fuckup occurs but everyone is to greedy to say "stop, or is just a matter of time before you default on your debt".

Atekimogus wrote:On one hand I agree with you, no matter how much money they are pumping into them I cannot see them recovering anytime soon and I fear the spectre of greece going bankrupt will be used by some to do pretty much everything they want.

That's why it can't just be a matter of "pumping money." That's where the leverage of the EU can come into play - as we discussed earlier, they don't have to wait for a Greek referendum - they can say that if Papademos & co. don't accept German/EU oversight along with aid, Greece can be written off. Given Papademos' background, I doubt any acceptance of aid would just be a matter of using bills to stop up holes in the dams.

Atekimogus wrote:On the other hand I do pity them, because I doubt the common greece citizen on the street is really to blame for that debacle and since most of the debt they have was given by the rest of europe (mostly germany afaik) it seems a bit dishonest to loan and loan and loan them as long as there's profit to be made and then by SO surprised when they are neckdeep in trouble.

It's like those credit card companies which still send you their cards despite knowing that you need to pay for their cards with other credit cards already. Everyone knows it's just a matter of time before the big fuckup occurs but everyone is to greedy to say "stop, or is just a matter of time before you default on your debt".

The creditors may be tricky, but in the final analysis it's the responsibility of the debtor to analyze the debt load to which they are agreeing. If you take the money, you are innately agreeing to pay it back; it's AT LEAST as dishonest for a debtor to take on a load without intention, design, a/o ability to make recompense as it is to loan it to such a debtor. If Germany et. al. are at fault for anything, it is agreeing to terms as a creditor that wouldn't apply to a debtor in the straits that Greece is.

"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later.""Of course! We never ask questions."

Mikey wrote:The creditors may be tricky, but in the final analysis it's the responsibility of the debtor to analyze the debt load to which they are agreeing. If you take the money, you are innately agreeing to pay it back; it's AT LEAST as dishonest for a debtor to take on a load without intention, design, a/o ability to make recompense as it is to loan it to such a debtor.

I agree.........if greece were a private person, however seeing as there seems to be no accountability whatsoever for driving your country into a shithole (as opposed to a private person/firm) and since it is a known fact that the horizon of most national leaders only reaches as far as the next poll and considering what unimaginable monetary quantites are involved, it buffles the mind how careless both creditors and debitors were operating.

Now call me a commie if you like but imho there is a huge requirement for thougher and stricter regulations on both ends, starting with bringing the elected officials to account if they screw up as spectacularily as in greece. Now I am not saying they should put the whole corrupt bunch in front of a firing squad................well, actually...yes, that is exactly what they should do...or better, take everything away from them and force them to life like the lower third of their own population.

If they really wanted to have a healthy public budget, they'd stop having such a massive underground economy that evades taxes (they are one of Europe's worst offender in the matter) and stop ramping up their military spending because of anti-Turkey paranoia.

These would go a LONG way toward actually me caring about their situation. They simply cannot currently survive as a financially solvent nation without patronage from another regional power. Greece have bankrupted at least half a dozen time since they became independant from the Ottoman Empire. Chronic overspending has been blatant.

Atekimogus wrote:Now call me a commie if you like but imho there is a huge requirement for thougher and stricter regulations on both ends, starting with bringing the elected officials to account if they screw up as spectacularily as in greece. Now I am not saying they should put the whole corrupt bunch in front of a firing squad................well, actually...yes, that is exactly what they should do...or better, take everything away from them and force them to life like the lower third of their own population.

You're not a "commie" - but, I hate to tell you, there IS a measure to hold the elected officials accountable. It's called the democratic/republican process. Think George Papandreou screwed up big-time? Well, so did Greece at large. End result? He's out of a job. As far as restrictions against both lender and debtor within the EU? There is - it's called the EU itself. Unfortunately, the way the EU operates, that means lots of strictures aimed toward Greece, and precious little against Germany (considering it's status as the economic alpha male of the EU.) Greece certainly has the option to avoid any of those strictures; to date, however, it has decided not to bring the idea of leaving the EU to referendum... if they decided to secede, I'd certainly doubt they'd receive any sort of credit other than international loan-sharking from Germany.

Maybe they could ask the Republic of Ireland. We're into them for $50 bil, so why not?

"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later.""Of course! We never ask questions."

Mikey wrote:You're not a "commie" - but, I hate to tell you, there IS a measure to hold the elected officials accountable. It's called the democratic/republican process. Think George Papandreou screwed up big-time? Well, so did Greece at large. End result? He's out of a job.

Ok, first I don't think all the blame lies with Papandreou, the kind of fuck up we have in greece is probably the results of years of misuse of power but to be honest I am not so well versed in greece internal politics that I could name all of them.

As for accountability........he is out of job.........and you think that is NEARLY enough? If you have a limited liability company and screw up as big as some politicians you are tried, sentenced and jailed for grossly negligent behaviour and that is considering that you probably never played in the same league (amount of money) than those elected officials.

As for Greece at large screwing up.......maybe.....I was once at greece for vacation and it surley wasn't long enough to provide me with an accurate picture of the lands mentality and if that sort of shaddy behaviour is the standard modus operandi there.

However I find it a bit harsh to say....."yeah..your politicians screwed up, though luck, shouldn't have voted for them". That kind of response is enourmesly lame considering all the fake "indirect democracy" systems we have here in europe. Yeah, I might vote for a certain party but I have no say whatsover with whom said party will form a coalition and administration, I have NO SAY whatsoever which person will inherit which ministry etc.etc.etc. . In short you haven't much to say at all and all you can really do is voting for the party which you consider the smallest evil/least corrupt. (Well, if you were mega-rich you might consider forming your own party and enter the political process.......but then you are probably already NOT the smallest evil:))

I didn't say it was a perfect system, but it IS the system. If Papandreou (or anyone else) committed a criminal act in office, then the nation is free to charge and indict him for such action. Otherwise, an ouster is the reaction of the political system.

"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later.""Of course! We never ask questions."

Deepcrush wrote:The problem for Greece is that constantly trying to bail them out, only to drive the rest of Europe into debt, then only to end up begging the G20 for money to keep bailing the rest of Europe out.

You just end up with the problems the US had under Bush Jr. Sometimes you just need to fold someone up and then start over again.

The problem of Greece is more than the current crisis. It has been systematically drowning in its own debt and put under other power's tutelage for the past 150 years.

The only way Greece avoided problems is when England/France needed it as a foil against the Ottoman or when the US needed it as a foil against Russia/Yougoslavia.

Well, they just elected an economist; I fear that it's a case of too little, too late, but we'll see. Now is not the time for the EU to suddenly get antsy about stepping on someone's sovereign toes - they've been anything but cautious in the past about creating a European hegemony. The current situation in Greece is when such intrusiveness is actually called for.

"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later.""Of course! We never ask questions."