Any warrior who didn't full clear within a month or so of the meta gems being in raid could bring much different comps than the top guilds did. By the same token....method brought restore druids which most guilds did not. Paragon brought a fury warrior. I am pretty sure that soy from blood legion saw a lot of progression as well.

Point is they are in a different boat than us. They are doing content under geared and must have classes that are min maxed for encounters. A little off topic. I still believe we need a slight bump. I just urge you to take what the top 15 or so guilds in the world say and remember their perspective.

I'm simply saying no guild brought us for our dps but our utility. Do I personally feel we're in an ok spot, yes. I do miss being top dps, but we can't expect to always be on top, and I'm still relatively competitive with our classes which is ok with me.

As for CS not being parried, I think there was not one fight in ToT where that was a problem? Maybe DA as orb soaker, but even then you can always delay your CS for a few seconds.

To respond, CS being parried is a very real issue on multiple fights, it just isn't noticed very much because it is still a small chance that it will infact be parried.
Jin'rokh loves to turn around and cast balls at people, though it is rare enough you can easily time it in your favor.
Council - Both casters spam at random people, constantly turning, not to mention dealing with your tank randomly turning him to avoid charge lightning. The turning issue can be mitigated with a well positioned raid.
Magaera - You spend half the fight standing in front of the boss for Rampage (though I'm not sure if they actually parry, I personally haven't noticed it happening).
Durumu - nuff said
Iron Qon - He turns and throws shit at your melee constantly during the first fire phase, though it is a small portion of the fight, and during the final phase his face smash crap.
Twins - Do all sorts of shit, actually my biggest gripe with that fight is Suen charging out of range, though it is easily timed.
Lei Shen - Crashing Thunder, tanks spinning him around constantly due to taunt, turning to Decap and getting out of CT.
This is to completely ignore older bosses that mandated you attack from the front the whole time, ala Ragnaros.

The point isn't that you cannot plan around it, but that it is needlessly punishing on our DPS. I would be completely happy with bosses simply not being able to Parry while casting or performing a special ability, which would make complete sense from a "realistic" standpoint anyways.
Edit: Or simply a cooldown reset on parry, ala Templar's Verdict.

Second point;

Originally Posted by Archimtiros

B) better sustainable cleave

It isn't the cleave DAMAGE, but the cleave rotation that I have complaints about. Whereas the CS rotation is fairly fluid, our cleave rotation is very clunky, abilities overlap each other and with most short term add fights, we don't even get a chance to stack Meat Cleaver before adds die. I proposed before that Whirlwind should stack charges of Meat Cleaver based on the number of targets hit by WW, obviously balancing damage around that, since it would greatly speed up our rotation.
You could even do something tricky, like up the rage cost of Raging Blow based on the Meat Cleaver charges, letting it hit more targets quicker, but still only using one Charge of RB, for higher rage cost. That would still encourage rage pooling, and end the whole "WW better than WS for TG on single target" relationship.
Obviously that is just a random 10 second idea, so please don't blow me up with a hundred comments on how silly/broken/op it is!

Lastly;

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

I think we have a decent survivability with the SW change in 5.4. Don't forget that we always have defstance, which is a plain 25% dmg reduction, together with 2min 20% dobts and 3min 40% (or 5min 60%) shieldwall. I think especially def stance is highly underrated and most warriors tend to use zerkstance for that bit more damage instead of using defstance for survivability. Of course we have no 100% magic immunity, but we don't need more homogenization.

The problem with our survivability is two-fold.
First: Stances. I posted a long while back about using Defensive Stance for Ionization and a half-dozen posters replied about Berserker Stance instead.
When I was working on progression Jin'rokh, not using Def Stance almost guaranteed (my) death, especially if Static Shock hit right after. Now with more gear, the times have changed, but the problem remains. The two stances directly contradict one another. On the one hand, Def Stance helps healers and encourages defensive play; dead DPS of course does none. Then enter Beserker Stance, which rewards risky play, very risky, as only high damage really does any good, the kind you would normally want to use a defensive CD for. I think it is very silly and contradictory design. But then I believe the problem is Berserker Stance, not Def stance.
Second, and what I would really like to see is DbtS work better; instead of Parrying which is largely useless unless you pull aggro on a melee boss. I would like to see it work more like Deterrence or Cloak of Shadows and give us an Immunity ability, like almost every other class in the game.

To respond, CS being parried is a very real issue on multiple fights, it just isn't noticed very much because it is still a small chance that it will infact be parried.

Ah, that's a good point, although I have to say this tier I only realized it one point at Jin'rokh, but this is one thing that they could really fix without breaking anything.

Originally Posted by Archimtiros

The problem with our survivability is two-fold.
First: Stances. I posted a long while back about using Defensive Stance for Ionization and a half-dozen posters replied about Berserker Stance instead.
When I was working on progression Jin'rokh, not using Def Stance almost guaranteed (my) death, especially if Static Shock hit right after. Now with more gear, the times have changed, but the problem remains. The two stances directly contradict one another. On the one hand, Def Stance helps healers and encourages defensive play; dead DPS of course does none. Then enter Beserker Stance, which rewards risky play, very risky, as only high damage really does any good, the kind you would normally want to use a defensive CD for. I think it is very silly and contradictory design. But then I believe the problem is Berserker Stance, not Def stance.
Second, and what I would really like to see is DbtS work better; instead of Parrying which is largely useless unless you pull aggro on a melee boss. I would like to see it work more like Deterrence or Cloak of Shadows and give us an Immunity ability, like almost every other class in the game.

Personally I think that this contradiction, where you have to make a choice for yourself is what the game needs. It's much better than always saying use X on situation A, use y on situation B. Instead you have to understand what you can do and what is the best for your raid (and in this case for your own life) and this is where the difference between expert players and good players comes into play.
As for the magic immunity, like I said earlier I don't think more homogenization is good for the game and I don't really think we need it. Again, assuming all melee do equal DPS, why would you bring another melee than a warrior to your raid (well maybe rets for bop cheese).

it work more like Deterrence or Cloak of Shadows and give us an Immunity ability, like almost every other class in the game.

If that happen, you can expect to see whine post from other classes in the pvp section..

If you're progressing the Jin'rokh, then you should always swap to def stance (especially when it kills you). Although, I do agree that berserker stance is a bit lame, like its a lack of design or thoughts. They should just had made it like an utility stance (you generate less rage, but you run faster, take more healing, or something like that). The only situation I find Berserker stance really badass is on Ra-den second phase. With that amount of dmg taken, you're literally at rage cap!

Whereas the CS rotation is fairly fluid, our cleave rotation is very clunky, abilities overlap each other and with most short term add fights, we don't even get a chance to stack Meat Cleaver before adds die.

Pretty sure that this is very intentional. They really didn't like fury cleave which is still funny enough with how strong dots tend to be nowadays in similar situations but well I doubt they would even consider removing the ramp up.

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

As for the magic immunity, like I said earlier I don't think more homogenization is good for the game and I don't really think we need it. Again, assuming all melee do equal DPS, why would you bring another melee than a warrior to your raid (well maybe rets for bop cheese).

Not that this is the place where I feel the need to specifically care for certain other classes although I am of course aware that there is more than one melee class with not the strongest stand but homogenization is not a one way street. Introducing raid dps cooldowns and starting the utility armsrace was a total mistake regardless.
But not everyone deals the same dps anyways or produces the same hps at the moment so I am not exactly buying that making dbts a cloakish ability would cause a significant rise in warrior demand and would offer more than some personal convenience at this point.

The only "buff" Warriors could use right now is our old 5% Passive Crit (Raid Buff) back. Often times 10M have to choose between Crit or Spell Haste etc. Give us our old Passive Crit back and this will rarely be a problem.

People that area complaining about our Class being underpowered or too "support>DPS" ... You're bad. Stop creating these stupid threads. Play efficiently and optimally and just be happy that you have the choice to play such a great Class.

The only "buff" Warriors could use right now is our old 5% Passive Crit (Raid Buff) back. Often times 10M have to choose between Crit or Spell Haste etc. Give us our old Passive Crit back and this will rarely be a problem.

People that area complaining about our Class being underpowered or too "support>DPS" ... You're bad. Stop creating these stupid threads. Play efficiently and optimally and just be happy that you have the choice to play such a great Class.

Warriors are not a "great class" right now. The play style of Fury is quite fun, but the damage is under-tuned, and that's to say nothing about Arms.

The problem is melee itself, it is so much harder to carry melee for heroic progression. Then on top of that most need to tunnel to dps that is even remotely close to range. Part of the problem is range vs. melee, and the fact that with more people raiding 10man, you can run a warrior tank and get the same cd's and still run the one melee,rogue, and then push progression with locks/mage,etc.

Warriors are not a "great class" right now. The play style of Fury is quite fun, but the damage is under-tuned, and that's to say nothing about Arms.

No one is playing Arms. 647 logs compared to 21K for Fury leaves a lot of room for error and variation. For all we know, Feral Druids might have the highest potential of any spec in the game - but the best players just chose to play something else.

Stop linking biassed data to try to support your argument. I called you out on this earlier:

You think 10 man normal is the best evaluation of what a spec is capable of? Especially at this point in the tier when only the worst guilds are still doing mostly normal modes? 25 man heroic 90th percentile is perfectly valid parsing. But if you'd like we can look at overall parses which only further buttresses my point:

10 man heroic and 25 man heroic all parses show warriors being near the bottom. 90th percentile for both shows Fury being near the bottom as well. Just because you don't want to believe the data is accurate doesn't make it any less true.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Tarazet

No one is playing Arms. 647 logs compared to 21K for Fury leaves a lot of room for error and variation. For all we know, Feral Druids might have the highest potential of any spec in the game - but the best players just chose to play something else.

Look at all the parsing data. Feral is parsing much higher than Fury. My primary point isn't about Arms, it's about Fury. But there's no debate that Arms is worse off than Fury and Fury isn't very good right now, so that's saying something.

Top 100 is a very small sample size. A lot of people think it's too small to glean any valuable information from, outside of which classes are able to pad the best. That is primarily what's happening in top parses this far after progression has finished. Either a fight is done in a way which benefits a player a lot, they have really good RNG, or a combination of the two for the most part.